George Farmer - The Fight Against Tyranny: How Radical Wokeness Is Stifling Democracy

Full transcript: George Farmer on London Real

2:02 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is George Farmer, the British political activist, conservative commentator, and chairman of Turning Point UK. You were heavily involved in Britain’s campaign to leave the European Union, stating, quote, Brexit is all about restoring choices and sovereignty to the individuals of the United Kingdom. Later, you launched Turning Point UK to promote conservative ideology on university campuses across the country. Here, you campaign for free markets, limited government, and personal responsibility with your motto, question, challenge, fight back. Your family is one of the conservative party’s most influential supporters, and your father, Baron Michael Farmer, is former treasurer for the Conservatives and life peer in the House of Lords. Last year, you married Candace Owens, the American conservative campaigner and fellow activist. Together, you are dubbed the new right-wing power couple. George, welcome to London Real. Thanks, Brian. It’s a pleasure to be here. Great to have you. I’m sure that sounds strange when I say it back. We’ll get to that. Before we get started, I just want to announce to everybody that we are streaming now on our new digital freedom platform, which is a censorship-free, independent broadcasting system that is of the people, by the people, for the people, and available exclusively on our website at freedomplatform.tv.

3:20 Can everybody watching us now please share this link via the sidebar to any and all of your social media channels? Let me just repeat that. Can you share the link via the sidebar to all your social media channels? Just ask your friends and family to give us 15 minutes and they can decide. George, I pledge to you and everyone watching us that none of this conversation will be edited, censored, removed, or banned, and that anybody in the world can watch the full version of this episode free at freedomplatform.tv forward slash farmer.

3:44 Thanks to the generous donations of over 34,000 people around the world, we affectionately call the London Real army. For anybody wanting to become a founding member of the digital freedom platform, they can visit freedomplatform.tv forward slash give to donate and fight with us on the front lines to protect our human rights. Here at London Real, we’ve been a platform for free speech since 2011. And George, I’m excited to have you here today. Maybe we start with talking about freedom of speech.

4:08 I know it’s something you’ve been pretty vocal with in the past. You know, for nine years, I was broadcasting conversations and it wasn’t until April 6th of this year, where we did the second largest YouTube live stream in the world that was subsequently deleted and banned 30 minutes later. And I’ve been on a razor edge with YouTube and this is 8,000 videos, quarter of a billion views. And I’ve been told by my rep that I’m one upload away from being completely de platformed. And it feels like when we say something that’s against their quote unquote community standards, which are super subjective and seem to change at a moment’s notice, then then we’re censored. And it just feels like there’s literally a handful of people in Silicon Valley that are controlling so much of our free speech. Curious what you think about free speech and then this concept of digital freedom of speech. Yeah, I mean, look, it’s a really hot topic right now, Brian. And I mean, you’ve tapped into that, that theme very well. And I mean, I think the concept of freedom of speech is so precious to the Western values. I mean, it’s literally the bedrock upon which our entire society has been built. And we are so close to slipping over that edge right now. We’re so close to slipping into this censorship world.

5:19 I mean, we already are. We’re straying into this gray area where the tech companies really become the arbiters of what is and isn’t moral truth. And that’s a very dangerous place to be. I mean, you know, if you look at previous totalitarian regimes of the past, you look at the Soviet Union, or you look at East Germany, or even you look at Yugoslavia, you know, it was and you look at China to this day, you know, you have regimes which are basically saying what you can and can’t say. And the way they enforce that was through the platforms of the media. And of course, George Orwell wrote, you know, Newspeak became the medium in 1984, which he talks about where, of course, you have to rewrite language. And what’s happening now with the modern censorship movement, your rewriting language, you’re saying that certain words become, you know, anathema to popular usage, you can certain terms become all encompassing. So the term racism or, you know, whatever it is that we’re talking about this day has become so broad brush now that anybody saying anything can be tied with this brush and then become become sensitive.

6:25 So that has become the new norm. And I mean, you’ve even seen it happening, of course, to the president, which is incredible, because the tech companies are literally deciding what the president of the United States can and can’t sell on their platforms. Now, of course, the way they’ve evaded that has been through the status of saying, well, section 230, under the Supreme Court, you know, New York Times versus Sullivan, we can say, well, we aren’t a publisher, we are, you know, we’re just a platform. Now, that is an absurdity. And you’ve seen the Supreme Court justices, some of them have come out and said oral arguments have been presented that they’d like to retest the case of New York Times versus Sullivan. Now that, if that happens, is a very, very important case, because that would actually then push the tech platforms into the region of publisher rather than just platform. And that is really what they are these days, they are a publisher, they’re not just, they’re not just a platform. So we, we as conservatives have, have had to, you know, play a very, very tight game on what we can say on platforms, because, as you have just made yourself clear, you know, you’re one upload away. And that’s very dangerous, because then you, and now you’re also seeing this, this push, which is obviously why you were advertising this at the beginning of the conversation, but you’ve seen this push towards trying to go direct. And actually, that, of course,

7:40 Is really the ultimate way that we can, we can share our content is just by going direct. And you’ve seen other people do that in the past, you know, you’ve seen, obviously, Alex Jones, for example, has, has long been a direct person, because he’s been, you know, taken off everywhere, Laura Loomer, who’s running for, you know, Congress in Palm Beach, you know, she was D platform from pretty much everything. And now she’s had to go direct, and Facebook are still trying to push her out, you know, and they actually have clauses in their contracts, which have literally carved her out of being able to come back onto the platform, even if she’s an elected representative. So the ultimate way that we have to deal with this is by going direct. And so we, you know, we’re, we’re also looking at that model over here, more and more and more conservatives over here are trying to establish themselves with their own media presence, independent of the tech platforms. And then, of course, you’ve also got the rise of the free speech advocate platforms, you know, so I mean, for example, minds, which is run by Bill Altman, and parlor, which is, you know, which has become well known, you know, that that’s obviously started rising as well.

8:44 And those platforms will, will get more and more traction as the free speech argument on things like Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram become more and more scrutinized and become more and more censored. Do you think the free market will solve this problem? Or do you think we will need regulation? Because what one of the interesting examples was, you know, Joe Rogan made a big deal to sign with Spotify recently reported to be $100 million, maybe more. But I believe one of the reasons was, is he wasn’t very happy with some of the censorship at YouTube. And that way, he thinks he might not be censored. I mean, do you think the free market will sort this out? Or do you think the monopolistic power is so strong with these kind of three companies, Facebook, Google and Twitter, that it might not work? That’s, I mean, that’s a very good question.

9:30 I mean, I like to believe in the power of the free market. And I do think that there is the, there’s sort of two answers to that. My ideological commitment, which is, I think the free market will sort it out. And then there’s the reality right now, which is that the free market is not sorting it out. And, and that’s actually become almost more concerning is that particularly, for example, in the wake of what’s what you’ve seen in the US in the last two months, you know, this whole campaign for Black Lives Matter, this huge push from the corporate establishment to move itself into favor with the woke progressive culture has meant that at some points, you’ve seen corporates doing what is clearly outside of their economic interest, and then not acting from the profit motive that has that concerns me greatly. Because when you see that, it’s an ideological commitment to a to a progressive ideal rather than a night rather than simply the profit motive. And of course, Thatcher, in, you know, in statecraft, and in her books writes clearly about the benefits of economic capitalism being that we don’t deal with anyone from benevolence, I’m not dealing with you, because I really like you as a person.

10:37 And I’m also not not dealing with you, because I don’t like you as a person. It’s the pure profit motive, it’s the pure market motive, which drives our entire interactions on an economic basis. Now, as soon as you start taking that out of the equation, you start saying, Well, I’m only going to deal with you because, you know, I like you, or I don’t like you, then actually, what you’ve got is an ideological system where people are excluded from the economic system, they can’t buy into the economic system. And that’s very, very dangerous. And what you’ve seen with some of these tech companies is a is a move towards this ideological, we’re only going to deal with people if they’re progressive enough for us. And that’s very dangerous. Now, coming back to the Joe Rogan point. Yes, I mean, hopefully, we’re going to see more of that. And I think I think you will, because I also think the purchasing power of a lot of conservatives is massive, you know, whether or not you whether or not they like it, whether or not the tech companies like it, if you’re going to censor conservatives, eventually, you’re going to censor vast swathes of the population, you know, I mean, minimally, you’re going to you’re going to alienate the 63 million people who voted for Donald Trump, you know, that as an at a minimum, or in the UK, you’re going to alienate if you’re campaigning against leave, or against the Conservative Party, whatever you like to say, in the UK, you’re going to alienate

11:52 All those millions of people who voted leave, and you’re going to alienate the millions who voted for the Tory Party. So at some point, the economic power of that group is going to have to be felt. Now, whether that is simply by saying, I’m parlay, here’s an economic here’s a platform through which you can express yourself, that that that could be a huge possibility. And that in some way, that is, of course, the free market establishing itself through competition. Now, do those monopolistic tech companies have so much weight that it is impossible to break them? I mean, you’re moving very quickly into that world. But if things like Spotify can come along and say, well, actually, we’ve also got a really big, heavy stick to hit with, and we can, we can give, you know, we can give a platform to quite a few of the conservative voices, then I think at the end of the day, that is the free market sorting it out. And really, you just have to withdraw some of the power from those from those major tech companies. And of course, the other touted root in the US has obviously been antitrust, which is still being kicked around in Congress. Yeah, the one thing, you know, America’s had a history with dealing with monopolies, whether it’s been in steel, oil and gas, and, but, you know, this new digital space is something I’m sure the founding fathers never saw coming where, you know, I think people, there’s a digital identity you have out there. And sometimes

13:08 You don’t know that this war is going on in your brain and on your mobile phone. And sometimes, you know, you don’t know that these things are happening to you, that your ideas are being co-opted. And it’s happening right in your living room, whether that’s happening from Facebook or Twitter, or the left or from China or Russia. And so it’s this weird kind of, you know, it’s like a weird warfare, almost like a weird guerrilla war, shadow war, where I don’t know if an even individual knows it’s happening to them.

13:37 So it definitely seems like a tricky one to fight back against. Yeah, I mean, I mean, that’s, that’s something which comes across with me quite a lot in the US. I mean, I deal with a lot of Candace’s, you know, media, sort of digital media presence and advertising and all this kind of stuff. And it’s like, what, what amazes me often is when you talk to a room of supporters, I mean, there’s, there’s two, there’s two things which come out. First of all, they’re very unaware of exactly how much power the digital media companies have. And that’s a frightening thing to, you know, that’s a frightening thing to them, present to them all in one package and say, guys, by the way, they know pretty much everything about you. You know, 70% of your personality can be derived from your social media presence.

14:20 That’s a terrifying thing. Most of them have Facebook and Twitter, and they use it to keep up with old friends, and they think that that’s pretty harmless. Little do they know that, you know, Facebook can track, you know, basically, when your dog needs to be taken to the vet, you know, it’s a terrifying amount of data which you input into those platforms, and which they then take away and will sell to other people. So I mean, that that’s the first step, those people don’t know what’s going on. The second step is also that, you know, when you when it comes to dealing with social media, people are volunteering that information, you know, that they just they are actually saying, I want to give this information away, you know, and as a result, they, they think that it’s totally harmless going into a system which is benevolent. And of course, at the end of the day, actually, the social media giants are then dictating what will and won’t be fed back to kind of the political campaigns, the political machines, what adverts you’re going to see, you know, how many times a pop up button is going to appear saying, you know, support this candidate, don’t support this candidate, you know, this person’s evil, here’s some, here’s some news you may not have seen. So when you start digitalizing that whole, you know, basically all information, and you’re quite right, the founding fathers would have never never had had any idea that this much information was going to be presented, you know, to a few

15:37 People in Silicon Valley. At the end of the day, you know, it’s a terrifying monopoly of information. And you never had a monopoly of information before you’ve had a monopoly of, as you said, steel, you’ve had a monopoly of oil and gas. And those are resources that everyone has to consume, which is why it’s very easy for the government to come in and say, we’re going to break up this monopoly, when it’s a monopoly of information, it’s such a, it’s such a quagmire, you end up because you then say, well, what, how does how is information? When do you have too much information? When do you have too little information? You know, where does the where does the line get drawn with information? It’s not like I’m producing a million, you know, million barrels of oil a day, that’s too much. It’s, I actually know 85% of your personality, is that too much, you know, is 60% too much. So that’s why it’s got the, it’s got the US in such a in such a pickle. And the other thing, which also is worth bearing in mind is that, you know, 10 years ago, this was not the situation, it’s changed so much in 10 years. And that has become, that’s become really difficult for a lot of people to understand, especially in the conservative world, which is that, you know, 10 years ago, did we need to break up Facebook and Google probably not, you know, because it was, they didn’t have as much power as they did. And so the fight was left

16:51 Absent, you know, it was it was said, Well, we don’t have, you know, we just don’t have as much concern about this. In time, they slowly gathered more information whilst they were left alone, until it kind of came to 2016 and 2017. And suddenly, people said, Whoa, hang on a sec. You know, now these people have got way too much information. And the trouble is, it’s too late by that point. Because once you realize they’ve got too much information, it’s too late, you know, and that’s exactly where the conservative movement has found itself in the last two years, which is that we all woke up a little bit too late to this problem. And nobody took it on early enough. And now the fight on our hands to reclaim free speech from the tech giants is such a huge fight, that it takes somebody with some real, you know, goonies to go out there and basically fight the fight the tech giants and some really deep pockets, because of course, these guys are, you know, trillion dollar companies. So now we have a real problem on our hands, where it’s too little too late. And now we’ve got to sort it out, either through regulation or through competition. And of course, in that meantime, when we’re either sorting out through regulation or competition, you’ll be that you’ll have continued censorship, you know, so that’s, and that’s, that’s the place that most conservative influences have found themselves in. Yeah, it’s a really good assessment of the situation. And

18:10 Then there’s been a couple cases, you know, Prager, you took YouTube to the, you know, they tried to take them to Supreme Court, didn’t have too much luck in 2017. You know, we’re pursuing legal options on both fronts in the UK and the US here. You know, I know Candace has taken action against Facebook, and so will we have but I mean, there’s limited, limited things you can do there. And, you know, we were fortunate to raise a bunch of money for this digital freedom platform, and the public reacted, we raised it about over a million dollars in about 11 days. So people want it, but still, it’s, it’s a long haul to fight these companies, especially something like Google. Yeah, it is. I mean, it really is. And I mean, I think, you know, the other side of the coin is that you’ve then got a lot of the traditional media companies who have bought in, you know, in a perfect world, you’d have a lovely spread of of available media outlets, you’d have some great right wing print media, you’d have some great right wing direct cable media, you’d have some, you know, centrist, you’d have some left wing.

19:11 And what’s happened, of course, is that in the last, you know, 15 years, but particularly obviously, in the last four, since this quite divisive kind of politics has entered our mainstream conversation, you’ve had most of the media companies buckle to the weight of progressive mob culture. And that’s meant that most of them have moved into into the left wing sphere. Now, what that has done is left a gaping hole in right wing conservative outlets. And that is now that’s a space where the free market could definitely get involved with and you know, you could drive a bus through the UK, you know, media to certainly, certainly television market, you know, when you’ve only got the BBC Channel Four, and you know, Sky News, which is increasingly left wing, so I mean, it’s, it’s that that medium, that media space is direct and open, you know, and in the US, obviously, with the kind of migration of Fox News from, you know, with the exception, of course, of a few notable personalities on Fox News, but with the migration of Fox News, most of it to the left, you know, or at least more to the center, let’s say, again, that space has really opened up. So there is a there is a real opportunity for the first mover in much of this and, and, you know, the digital media spaces is already showing that first mover, I mentioned parlay, you know, of course, there’s, there’s other there’s other platforms as well. But,

20:33 You know, there is a sense that people can act quickly and act now, whereas the traditional media outlets are much slower, because of course, it takes more infrastructure to launch something there. So you guys have done something which is quite unusual, you know, you’ve launched a direct TV effectively, I mean, you know, obviously, through an online platform, but you’ve effectively launched a TV channel online, and that’s very unusual. And that’s given you a greater, you know, it’s given you, as you say, a million dollars in 11 days, people, people signing up, people are interested. And that’s the kind of model that works. And so that traditional media space will become more and more left, it will become more and more boring, less and less people will watch it. I mean, I cancelled my TV license last year, you know, I mean, it’s just like, why would I watch anything on mainstream TV, I wouldn’t, you know, I mean, the only thing which really interests most people is sport, you know, I mean, like, there’s a lot of a lot of men I know watch sport and in British TV, but they couldn’t, they couldn’t care less about, you know, the news, as it were. Yeah, yeah, well, be interesting to see what comes out on the conservative side, for sure. You know, you mentioned the events of the last three months and watching, you know, everything happened from, I mean, you know, the lockdown to the Black Lives Matter protests.

21:44 And, you know, George, you’re in a unique perspective, because, you know, you you’re kind of a stranger in a strange land, you know, you’re there, you know, and, you know, you’re, you know, you’re in DC, you’ve been there for what, a year or so, you know, and you get to watch this, this, this wild and weirdness happening in front of you in a culture that’s not your own. And yet you bring, you know, still a lot of Anglo values and a lot of great education that you had about politics, economics, religion. And then of course, you’re better half as Candace Owens, who’s on the front line of this fight. What’s it been like for you to watch this? And what is your, your perspective and read? Because I think you have a unique perspective, more so than almost anybody in the world. Yeah, I mean, it has been a really, really interesting three months. I mean, it’s, it’s been a really interesting year for me.

22:35 And I think for both of us, to some extent, I mean, there’s so many different answers I could give to this, I’ll try and condense it into into something which is manageable. But I mean, the last three months has been unlike any three months I’ve ever experienced throughout my life doing anything. And in terms of political activism, in terms of just the kind of mass response to something which was clearly so heartfelt as a nation. Now, I mean, the real, the real game changer was, was I would say was, was Candace’s, you know, was Candace’s video. Obviously that, that video, which she launched on Facebook in response to the death of George Floyd, was one of the most, I mean, the response that we got from that was just incredible. And, you know, I sort of deal with more of the business side of organizations. And even my side of the organization felt the kind of like mass outpouring of relief that a lot of people said, you know, we, we needed to hear something else. And what was staggering was the fact that it comes back to that media conversation. What was staggering was the fact that no media organization was willing to put that forward. And it actually took a 31 year old woman in her spare room to reach effectively 150 million people to present the other side of it, to present the other side of the argument that for me was staggering. Because I just think, you know, I mean, obviously I’m married to her. So it’s like, you know, she’s my wife. Why is it

24:17 That my wife out of every woman on the earth or why is it that the two of us doing what we do, you know, are at the forefront of that charge? It’s just incredible that the media now has become such, you know, has totally brought into this left wing narrative and therefore will not present anything else. And that is staggering in and of itself. I mean, the other staggering sort of thing for me, I don’t want to overuse that word, but the other amazing thing for me, if you like, was the fact that, you know, watching the debate unfold on both sides of the channel, or both sides of the Atlantic, sorry, not the channel. But, you know, you’ve got this debate in America, which quickly became what exactly what we all thought it would become a mob culture, you know, shakedown, and sort of overthrow of the establishment. And that’s interesting for me, because I’ve seen it happen in Britain before, where you’ve seen like the London riots, and you’ve seen, you know, what probably was justified anger at the beginning against something which they, you know, perceived to be an injustice quickly evolve into an over, you know, overthrow the monarchy, overthrow, you know, everything to do with Britain, overthrow Churchill, you know, tear down Cecil Rhodes, all this kind of stuff. And actually, in the US, it just took on this whole life of itself. And really, what was interesting was how far it went this time. And I’m a big believer in the slippery slope. I mean, I was saying things

25:40 10 years ago, which have now only just become true. But I was still saying them 10 years ago, and I was saying this to Candace, it’s like, you look at, you look at debates we were having 10 years ago, and I was having, and I said, if we do this, this is where the debate will end up. And friends of mine at the time was saying, don’t be ridiculous, you know, we’re never going to get to that stage. And you know, you look at, for example, I mean, I’ll give you an example, the transgender argument is a very, very easy one, right? The transgenderism argument, I was saying 10 years ago, this will become the narrative within 10 years, we will have men trying to change their sex to become women, and then you will have them using bathrooms.

26:12 And I had friends of mine, I mean, I can recall conversations I had with colleagues as well as personal friends, who were saying, why does this bother you so much, it shouldn’t bother you so much, it’s simply a common, you know, what one person does doesn’t affect, you know, doesn’t, why does it bother you? And I said, because you will then be allowing, you know, biological men into women’s bathrooms, you know, it’s it that and that bothers me, if you have a daughter, do you want them sharing? And that was just something which I was saying 10 years ago, and now it’s become very apparent. We’re going back to the kind of last three months.

26:46 Again, it’s exactly the same conversation. You know, racism has become the hallmark of sort of Western liberal democratic debate, it’s it’s become a yardstick through which everything is now measured. And that is a that is an absurdity, because, of course, you know, we now live in a less racist society than we’ve ever lived in before. And you’ll always get pockets of racism, that’s, that’s because we’re all humans, you know, and you will always get pockets within society, which advocate on behalf of or against certain ethnic groups. That’s just how it works. You know, that’s how humanity works, because they are because we’re all because there is inherent prejudice within humanity. But the fact of the matter is, is that, and this is something which Candace will obviously say far more eloquently than I can. If you look at America 100 years ago, and you look at America today, if you seriously think you’re living in a more racist society, you need your head examined. And it’s the same with Britain. And so it worries me how much we’re seeing the corporate establishment buy into it, it worries me how much we see the political establishment buying into it, which is both the UK and an American thing. And it worries me that these kind of absurd debates, which are presented by the left as you know, the new narrative, the new normal, as they like to say, for political discussion in both America, kind of quickly morph into political discussions in Britain. You know, it’s why on earth are we

28:07 Having a debate about black lives matters in the UK, it’s, you know, it’s just not the same issue, you know, trying to, trying to draw parallels between, you know, police brutality in America, and, you know, police brutality in the UK, it’s just an absurd discussion. You know, it makes no sense. And so as a result, you know, that, that’s kind of been one area where it’s just been fascinating for me to watch the way in which the American political establishment and corporate establishment has quickly bought into that, to that narrative. And of course, the reason they’re doing that is because it’s an election year. And this being my first US election, I’ve really been involved in to the same to more so than any other year I’ve ever been involved in, has just been absolutely fascinating, because at the beginning of the year, and this is something I say, quite often to supporters of ours, if you say that, if you look at the beginning of the year, pretty much every polling company, I can’t think of one off the top of my head, even the left wing polling companies, you know, the NAACP, their internal polls were publishing polls, which showed that black support for Trump was north of 30%. You know, you even had one, I think it was a Harris poll, which reported blackmail approval for Trump up 42%. The Democrats obviously saw that at the beginning of the year, and hit the panic button. So, you know, again, what they did was they took an event in the US,

29:32 Which was a tragedy, and that point has been made very often. And then they, they turned it into a political football, and then they, you know, made a whole football match out of it. And that and then it became, you know, how many goals can we try and score with this football match? Of course, what eventually the Democrats will do, and what they’ve already started to do over here is score angles, because they’ve pushed the debate so far, that this defund the police, this whole absurdity around, you know, we have to, you know, pull down statues of every Civil War hero doesn’t matter which side, you know, you saw a Frederick Douglass statue taken down in America the other day. I mean, this this kind of commentary is now becoming absurd, you know, is becoming so absurd that the silent majority look at that and say, Do I really want, you know, my street, my nation’s history rewritten? No, I don’t. So that’s, that’s been fascinating for me to watch as well. And you know, that that I think will have a huge place to play in, in the in the November elections over here. So it’s been a fascinating three months. I mean, my life has just changed so dramatically within the last year and a half, I never would have expected anything like this. And so as a result, you know, it’s been, it’s been great. And it’s been a real roller coaster. And it kind of gets it gets more exciting. You know, of course, there’s,

30:53 There’s bad days, there are good days. But it does get it’s a very, very different world to be in over here. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I noticed, you know, Candace go all in, and that’s what I would expect her to do. But you know, to be firm in her convictions when these events came out, and she put out things that were, you know, I wouldn’t say doubling down, but just being who she is, and being who you guys are, in the face of what you knew would have going to be expecting to be a ton of controversy, and I guess a lot of support that you got.

31:23 Is there ever a moment where you two are at home saying, okay, it’s going to come now, or are we ready to do this? Are we’re sure we’re going to do this? Because you’re right. I mean, literally, like you said, 31 year old, you know, a black woman in her spare room is putting out a message that no one else has the balls to do in the world. It’s crazy. But nobody else is willing to go all in and put themselves on the line. Every other organization wants to hedge it.

31:48 Let’s be quiet right now. But you know, her with support of you are willing to say no, this is what we believe in. What’s that like when you make those decisions? Well, yeah, that’s kind of it’s an interesting one, because there’s there is a school of thought. And I mean, I’m Candace and I kind of buy into this. And this is something I also thought about UK politics for a very long time, which is that the left has pushed the framework of debate in both political cultures into a place where we are playing where we as conservatives are playing defense the whole time. And as a result, you know, and I mean, this is something that the vote leave campaign and Brexit campaign actually did very well was we kept on pushing the debate into worlds which the remain side of the argument didn’t like, because it made them play defense the whole time. Now, and you know, to some extent, Trump did the same thing, he would come up with these monikers, these catchphrases, which became entrenched and became very difficult for people to get out of their head, build the wall, lock her up, you know, all of those campaign slogans, which became quite powerful mottos. And as a result, you can boil an entire debate down to simple catchphrases within within moments. Now, what the left has done has said, you know, we are going to move the framework of all of these debates into our own ball camp, and then you’re going to have to come and play in our park. And as a result, you know,

33:25 You’re going to constantly be playing defense. Now, Candace likes to use the phrase the left is we’re playing by the left’s rules, and the left are playing by no rules. And I think that’s very accurate. And so when it when it comes to sitting down and sort of saying, Okay, this is what we’re going to do, what it really takes is a lot of courage. And that is kind of what she and I talk about a lot. And I mean, it’s, it’s why one of the reasons I, you know, sort of, we deeply respect each other is because of the fact that both of us are actually more afraid of compromise than we are of, you know, the kind of backlash from what we’re saying. And the reason being is because compromise is how we have effectively given so much ground to the left. It takes it’s going to take some real fighters. I mean, this is something that I often had feedback about in the UK was that I often had MPs saying to me, your style of your branding is just too aggressive for us.

34:23 And I’m like, Yeah, guys, but you know what, we’ve got to fight, we need real fighters. And if you don’t have real fighters, then you’re in real trouble, because the left is willing to fight by its own rules, and it will drag us into that, you know, ninth battlefield where we don’t want to fight. And but we’re forced to fight because it’s, it’s one of its it’s the place where they’ve drawn the lines. And so if unless we start fighting back, and unless we start saying we are not going to compromise, and we’re going to double down, we’re going to push the boundaries of debate from our side, they will never engage, they will never be, be forced to engage with us, you know, and so as a result, there are moments where I sort of say, you know, wouldn’t it be nice just to have a quiet Tuesday, but at the same time, you know, then it’s, it’s, it’s actually, what are we in this for? We’re in this to win it. And if we want to win it, we need to fight. And so as a result, I think encouraging upcoming fighters and giving strength to the conservative voice is one of the most important things we can do. And that’s kind of Yeah, that’s what I think. How does this play out in the next 12 months? You know, how does this all affect the election? I mean, like you said, they’re weaponizing race. And it’s the only thing they have. And so they’re going all in on it.

35:41 And like you said, they’re trying to score as many goals as possible. And how does that play out in the election? And how does it play out in the next 12 months? Do they end up eating their own, which is something Dave Rubin thought that they would end up doing? Do they end up taking it so far that everyone wakes up one day and says, Wait a second, we don’t want to throw our history down the toilet? Or do you think this can get worse? Because a couple years ago with Black Lives Matter, we never saw this coming. Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, who would have predicted where we would be now? I mean, it is crazy to think about how this debate has changed. I mean, I, I am very much the opinion that I agree with Dave, I mean, I think the left eats its own, the left constantly eats its own, which is kind of, you know, there’s a there’s a strange sort of schadenfreude and watching it happen. But I mean, it, you know, you’ve seen people like JK Rowling, you know, come out in favor of women, what biological women are women, and, you know, she’s now being canceled by her own actors, you know, and it’s kind of entertaining to watch, because I’m like, this is what will always happen to you guys, this will, this will, you will never be progressive and woke enough, eventually, you will have to draw a line somewhere when your own brain tells you that facts actually matter. And, you know, at that point, the progressive mob will come

36:52 For you, because for them, you know, science is racist, gravity is racist, the earth is as a whole is racist, you know, nature is probably anti transgender. I mean, you know, you saw some vegan activists try and stopping a wildebeest from being eaten by a lion, and we’re both hospitalized in Tanzania, not so long ago, I mean, that’s the kind of absurd level that we’re at. And so, you know, where do I think this goes within the next 12 months? You know, you’re going to have, first of all, I mean, there’s this, there’s this thing in the US called the election coming up on November the third. And I think, you know, you’re going to have, I personally think the silent majority will come out in favor of, of Trump. And I’m not just saying that, because, you know, obviously want him to win the groundswell of opinion and fact, and then sort of feedback we’ve got as an organization in the US has been overwhelming. And that’s coming from both minority America and you know, the suburban America and the white, the white America that we we plug into. So, you know, there’s, there’s a huge outswelling of support for a lot of work that we’re doing. Our volunteer network has gone through the roof. I mean, it’s difficult to describe, you know, it’s, we’re a small organization. This is the black set foundation that I’m mentioning here. And it’s, we’re a very small organization, we only have a few employees. But our volunteer

38:14 Network has just gone bananas. And you know, as a result, it’s difficult, I, you know, I’m the treasurer of the organization, it’s, it’s difficult to keep track of how much we’re doing out because it’s just so much plug in. And this is from people of all races, of all creeds, of all colors, wanting to volunteer in all different states, to do things like food drops, to do community cleanup, to do, you know, after the riots, we deploy teams across numerous states to help people rebuild their shops, we’ve distributed cash to small businesses, like, it’s just, and this support has just been incredible. And so from that angle, it’s been, it’s been actually really satisfying to watch. And I think that minority voice, and I think that the majority, the silent majority voice will be, will be expressed in November.

39:00 And as a result, I’m, I’m hopeful that I think by the time we come to November, you know, that that will result in a victory for Donald Trump. Now, on the other hand, what I do think there is that the margin of victory will be a really important factor. You know, in Donald Trump, in Donald Trump’s campaign for next year, because I think if the Democrats, you know, are delivered as a landslide defeat, it will be very much the same. And I think his, you know, his one we did earlier, Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, that the Labour Party in the UK has is undergoing a purge of its Corbynite elements right now, you’ve seen Rebecca Long-Bailey, you’ve seen Keir Starmer kind of try and exercise an awful lot of the Corbynite elements from his front from his sort of cabinet bench. And the reason being is because Corbynism as an ideology, you know, people like Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones, and all these kind of guys on Twitter, you know, clearly, are clearly not attractive to the majority of people, you know, you’ve seen that kind of urban, you know, white working class in the Midlands, you’ve seen the kind of working class labor roots from which a lot of the labor movement was drawn, abandoned that ideology, because it’s now progressive woke totalitarianism, which has very little to do with helping ordinary people, it’s really just about trying to make everyone, you know, virtue signal. And I think that that, that that model could well be played out again

40:37 Here in November. And I think the Democrat Party, if it’s, if it slides to a crushing defeat, will have to ask itself, what place do we have in our party for people like AOC, for people like Rashida Tlaib, for people like Ilhan Omar, who have really led our party into this kind of aggressive, progressive, socialism model, which now clearly has no appeal to the American voters. Of course, then you’ve also got a question as to, well, what role did Joe Biden have in our defeat, you know, and I think he would have a huge one. But I also think you’ve got a, you’ve got a, you’ve either got a stale democratic establishment, Pelosi, Biden, Schiff, or you’ve got an ultra left wing, you know, progressive socialist element. So both sides of the party are going to try and purge each other of each other. And as a result, you will, you will probably have a Democratic Party civil war. They’ve only found common ground in this election, because they both hate Donald Trump so much, that they’ve been able to unite over this one point. Now, you know, as a result, getting Donald Trump out of office is their number one priority. If they lose in November, it is going to be, you know, get the popcorn, because you’re gonna, you’re going to enjoy watching these guys tear themselves to pieces, because they will have no idea which way to take their party. And in the UK, as I said, you know, you’ve had, you’ve had that play out already. And it’s been kind of

42:02 Quite entertaining in some ways to watch the Labour left wing front bench and the Labour party sort of social influences, you know, try and justify their own existence in the aftermath of what was the largest parliamentary defeat for, you know, 80 years. So that, that’s how I think it plays out in the next 12 months. And I think also when that happens, then a lot of this kind of nonsense rhetoric we’re seeing around, you know, BLM and the kind of revision of your revision of American history will die as well. And you know, then it will try and find a place, of course, in the midterms, and it will try and find its place in the next, in the next election cycle after that. And it will continue to do so until, you know, until enough of minority America wakes up and says, not in our name, which is obviously kind of what, what we’re also trying to push forward from Kansas side.

42:50 So I think, I think until that, that minority awakening happens, you’re going to, you will see it continue to play out. And when it does happen, then that debate is over. Yeah. Can you speak a bit more on how, you know, policies in the US, you know, are reflected in the UK and vice versa from, you know, the political establishment and from kind of the populist as well. I mean, some say the Brexit movement was a precursor to Trump being elected. You again, are in this really unique place where you’ve got a foot kind of on each side and been able to kind of observe both, you know, how do you see that as overall?

43:23 And then how do you see that kind of moving forward? Yeah, I mean, that’s the, I mean, I’ll speak about the policy element just first, because I, I find that to be very, very interesting. The populist, the populist one, which I come to second is, is actually more is very, very similar in many ways. The policy element, the policy discussion between the two countries is very, very interesting as an observer. Because you do just find conversations in the US, which just really aren’t on the agenda in the UK. And that that is, there’s both positives and negatives to that. The positive element is that I would say, the US, for example, you come over here, and you realize how, I mean, I’ll talk about the EU, you realize just how stifling the European regulatory environment has been to British business. And you realize that the golden egg, which has been gifted to us through Brexit is just bigger than you ever realized. Because as soon as you look at the regulatory environment in the US, and you see what can be achieved with a little, with a low regulation society, you realize that actually, the UK has been really hampered by its association with the Franco German status model of regulation.

44:36 And that model of regulation has been rolled out and has been slow creep. And has been, you know, I mean, Thatcher talked about it in our later years, you know, George Bridges, who was, you know, one of the conservative party kind of main strategists, he talked about it, it’s one of the reasons he came out in favor of the leave argument, because he said, I don’t know what my research staff are doing 70% of the time, because they’re doing work from Brussels. And, you know, I saw it in my own business, I’ve seen it in the corporate, the corporate world in London. And as a result, you’ve seen this slow creep of EU regulation, in the US, you just don’t have that. And it’s so refreshing to come over here, and find this world where opportunity is rife. And you know, you drive through middle America, and it’s like, people starting businesses, if there’s an opportunity, they move quickly to take advantage of it. And it’s just wonderful. There’s such an entrepreneurial go get them spirit over here. And I love that. So that is one of the major kind of policy where differences in the US, where I’m just like, that is a real, that is a real boon to the American psyche.

45:40 You know, I think on the other, on the other side of the coin, you know, then you’ve got the policy debates over here, because they are so divisive, you know, that there isn’t much middle ground to be had. And that is something where you do kind of, you know, concerns me, because sometimes you do need this sort of, you need both parties to work together. I mean, you, you did see it in somewhere like criminal justice reform. So criminal justice reform attracted both sides of the aisle and things got done. In the UK, there is a sense of, you know, occasionally, this coming together and bipartisanship, where actually, good pieces of legislation can be passed. In the US, as the debate becomes more and more divisive, and as, you know, Congress has now been lost to the Democrats, and but the Senate is still with the Republicans, there’s less and less which can be achieved. And so you do sort of feel almost like there’s a policy stalemate going on. And that can be that can be concerning because, you know, of course, that doesn’t need to be legislation passed, and it’s, you know, even if you’re rolling back the frontiers of the state, even if you’re deregulating, that still needs to be passed. So you know, there is a kind of, there is a slightly more divisive system of government over here, which encourages people almost not to work together, because if they think they’re going to win the next election, they’ll just wait until after that election. So

46:54 That, that is a negative, I would say. But in turn, and then in terms of kind of unique policies, which I find interesting to look at, from both the UK and the US perspective, I mean, in the UK, for example, we just don’t have the same debate around, for example, vaccinations, which I find very interesting. I, I hadn’t, I don’t have any stake in the game, I’ve never really been that interested in the debate, if I’m honest. And so it’s just been fascinating to kind of watch and learn about what the difference is between the British style of medicine and the American style of medicine, that also plays into a larger healthcare debate. The US healthcare system is very, very different to the UK one. And there are very many good things about it. And there are, you know, a couple of, there are a few bad things about it, you know, and we actually do quite a lot of work with them. A great lady who runs a consumer rights advocates, I think it is or patients rights advocates, who advocate on behalf of patients against the kind of cartel of the medical insurance. And that’s been a fascinating thing to get involved in. So the policy, the policy areas are very different. We don’t have the same debate around vaccines, we don’t have the same debate about abortion, we don’t have the same debate around gun control. And all three of those points, when you actually come to the US, you start learning about them. They’re very, very

48:10 Nuanced debates, they’re nowhere near as simple as they’re painted out to be in the media. And as a result, you know, for example, like gun control, I mean, it’s ironic that that debate will basically die because of these riots. And, you know, you’ve seen weapons sales surge, you’ve seen ammunition sales surge, and all because of some riots, which broke out. So suddenly people are concerned. And then of course, the liberals have played their hand on this one as well, defund the police. Well, okay, so if we defund the police, who’s going to protect us, your your rights of protection will fall back on yourself. So again, it’s like a highly nuanced debate. You know, it’s not just a simple like, oh, well, everyone in America has an hour 15.

48:48 That’s that’s a nonsense. It’s actually about the rights to defend oneself. And so I actually do think that debate could be you know, could have far more of a nuanced angle taken on it by the by the international media, which is generally just portrayed as, you know, rednecks won their guns, which is just an absurd argument. And then from the from the populist side of the argument, I mean, just quickly on that one, there are there is a lot of similarity about that. And I would say that, you know, the UK and the US have both bought into that kind of populist wave, which has swept a lot of a lot of the Western world. And actually, there, you know, the comparisons between Brexit and Trump, you know, and then, of course, you saw similar your seats, you’re still seeing populist revolutions across most of Europe, you saw one in Brazil, you know, it’s that debate is part of a much wider movement. And I think the US is a key element to that, but I don’t think it’s a unique element to that. So Britain did lead the way in many ways. And I think that that, you know, kind of that Brexit argument was so powerful, and it did show a lot of people that it can be done. You know, and then the rest of the world has kind of followed. And it gives me some pride, you know, in being in being a Brit that I think we led we led the world on that one. And I, you know, I think there’s a handful of people in the UK, who changed the debate to

50:12 An extent, where, you know, we actually changed the course of world history. And that that’s an enormously proud, it gives me a lot of pride to say that, you know, was that difficult for you? Because you must have gotten a lot of heat pushing that agenda over here. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I mean, again, it’s I will, I often feel sorry for the moderates, rather than than the people who are really in the fire. You know, with people like Nigel, or with people like myself, or, you know, other strong levers, our, you know, our flag was pinned to that mask from a very early, from a very early step, you know, and as a result, we’re like, you know, we’re like Marmite, you either kind of love us or you hate us. And as a result, if you don’t like Marmite, you’re not going to put it on your bread every morning. You know, it’s it’s that as a result, I did get heat, I had friends who don’t really speak to me much anymore. You know, because of Brexit, you know, I have other people, even in family who don’t really speak to me because of Brexit. But, you know, I doesn’t, it doesn’t really bother me, because it’s just like, well, you know, if the whole, if our whole relationship was predicated upon my opinion about one political issue, then why were we friends in the first place? That’s your decision, you know, I’ve never ended a friendship because of it. But yeah, you receive heat, the moderates, however, the people who are the swing voters who actually, you know, I know, I know a lot of

51:42 Friends and family who were those moderates, you know, who were those people who took persuading, who wanted to hear the arguments from both sides. And when they decided to come down on the vote leave side, the backlash from members of their own family and friend group was far worse than it was for someone like myself, you know, who really, who, as I say, who had their colors pinned to the mast from a very early, early stage, they received so much heat still to this day received so much heat. And that makes me sad for them, you know, because I, they kind of, they got into a debate, they never thought this would be the outcome, you know, they, they just thought they were voting on a particular issue to do with sovereignty and the future of Britain, it turned out to be something completely different. And now, friends won’t speak to them, you know, that that’s, that’s something that shouldn’t have to happen. But that’s where that debate took Britain. I think you once said, I think when you’re on stage that what happens in American college campuses takes maybe five years to hit UK college campuses. And I was wondering if you could maybe expand that if I, if I got that right. And also maybe speak a little bit about turning point UK and, you know, what is it like to go into a campus where the default is kind of this liberal or left view and to try to have conservative conversations? What that what’s that experience been like for you? Yeah, I did. You’re quite right on that quote. I

53:08 Mean, I said, I think it was at Nottingham University, when we were there that what happens in American college campuses will will eventually find its way onto UK college campuses. That, that is very true. Because a lot of the debates which you see originating in UC Berkeley, Berkeley, and, you know, UCLA, and places like that, eventually spread, like, kind of cancer. You know, the progressive ideal is what is a cancerous one. You know, it kills the host eventually. And I mean, that comes back to the point when I was saying about cancel culture, you know, eventually, your career and everything and in your life will be cancelled by the left if you do not sign up to their totalitarian ideals. You know, it’s parasitic, it grabs hold of anything which it can, and we’ll try and destroy it. And I mean, for example, you know, at, at the university campuses in America, this whole pulling down of statues, you know, became a became a real debate 10 years ago. It’s now migrated to, I see that Oxford has decided to take down the statue of Cecil Rhodes. Now, of course, what they should also be doing is canceling the Rhodes scholarship, you know, which has provided education to numerous people from South Africa, for example, you know, from a poor background. So I mean, you know, why, why just pull down a statue of him? Why not just cancel the whole thing? You know, anything to do with Cecil Rhodes, we should cancel. So, you know, if you really, if you

54:38 Really want to be, you know, what they want to do is they want to pick and choose, they want to pick what they like, and they want to, and they want to leave what they don’t like, they want to rewrite history and their own image. So that’s one area where that kind of debate has clearly migrated. You’ve also seen in that, in that same vein, other things, for example, like the progressive kind of culture, you know, the Marxist march, if you like, the mark, the march of the Marxist ideas from left wing American university professors into British universities. And that was something that was becoming very prevalent in my day, when I was at university. And what that has meant is that there has been this kind of progressive march from, you know, giving culturally Marxist ideas, airtime on university campuses in Southern California, all the way through to now saying university campuses in Britain, you know, oh, well, we need to have the whole debate around, like, for example, student loans has become hugely, hugely sort of partisan in the UK. And that’s an absurd argument, because, you know, we don’t even pay anywhere near the same. We don’t pay anywhere near the same amount in the university life in Britain, but of course, in the US, now this has become the topic. So now it’s migrated into the into UK as well. And I mean, so you’re seeing like these, you’re seeing this kind of great march of progressivism from university campuses in the US, and eventually we’ll find its way on onto

56:13 UK campuses as well. And so as a result, you know, what do you’ve seen throughout this whole thing is that left wing culturally Marxist ideas have found their way from American universities onto British campuses, and that’s been hugely troublesome. So, and that worries me, you know, and as a result, turning point UK obviously is a force for good in that in that area. And turning point UK is trying to take that debate onto university campuses in in Britain, and has become has become a great voice for conservative values over there. And that gives me a lot of hope. You know, the CEO of turning point is Ollie Annesfeld, and he’s a great, great guy.

56:54 And he’s, you know, he’s leading a charge. And you’ve seen that great set of media influences who have grown up in, in the UK political culture and the university campus culture in the UK. And that has become now a force for good in terms of challenging the dominant narrative. And so as a result, you know, I’m very happy with the way that that’s sort of that narrative needed to be challenged, it needed a group to take that fight onto university campuses, it needed a group to stand up for conservative principles. And if there wasn’t a group to stand up for conservative principles, you continue to see the march of the march of the Marxist ideas. And I mean, you know, the other area, of course, which is very dominant in in America is the rewriting of American history. And, you know, trying to sort of, you know, sponge out any parts of American history, which it doesn’t, which they don’t like. And that has now become the dominant theme in Britain, you know, it’s like, oh, well, we don’t like Churchill’s view on something. So we’ll just expunge Churchill from history, you know, we don’t like the fact that you know, Britain had an empire. So we’ll just expunge that from British history, you know, and I mean, that that kind of Western civics education has become so unpopular amongst the left that, you know, trying to abolish it was something that you were doing 30 years ago was it’s made its way now into British campuses as well. You know, and of course, now we’re rewriting British history,

58:16 Everything Britain ever has done is bad. You know, we need to basically tell everyone that Britain is responsible for all the evils in the world. Challenging that narrative is enormously important, and will become more important as that debate gets worse. Yeah. What about the lockdown? And, you know, what we’re seeing here with a lot of the measures coming into place, potential second waves, you know, talk about vaccines or mandatory vaccines?

58:44 What do you make of that on both sides of the Atlantic? Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s a great question. I mean, yeah, it’s a strange world we live in. I mean, the whole coronavirus thing, I mean, gosh, who knew that who knew that a virus could become so, so political, I guess it’s, it’s indicative of the time we live in that this has become the debate now. The, the way in which coronavirus is now being treated on both sides of the Atlantic, I think gives a very good indication of what has now become the new norm and in politics on either side. In Britain, and I was recently over there within the last six weeks, and in Britain, no one’s wearing a mask is for a few people are wearing a mask, of course, but the majority of the population don’t have to wear masks. It has become, you know, life is trying to get back to normal. There is a general view that the economic situation can’t take a second lockdown.

59:48 And that a lot of this, a lot of the original science from the Imperial College study has now been disproved. And there is a growing perception that herd immunity has has quite a lot of ground to it. And then you’ve also got examples such as states which didn’t lock down when you look at places like Sweden, and other and other countries, of course, not just Sweden, but where you know, the death rate stayed pretty low. And of course, if you were elderly, or if you had a comorbidity, then of course, that was a concern. And you should rightly be concerned, and you should try and, you know, take yourself out of harm’s way, exactly the same as if it was a particularly bad, bad flu season. Now that that as far as I could see, and you know, when I’m reading, I get daily emails about what’s going on in Britain, of course, and I keep track of it. And of course, that has become the kind of dominant theme of the British debate. Contrast that with the US. The US now it has become a bipartisan, it has become a, you know, partisan issue as to which states are going to lock down and which states are not.

1:00:52 California has just in DC as well, has just enforced mandatory face masks for no apparent reason. Other than they say, well, we’ve had a small spike, right? Well, you’ve had a small spike. The only way that we’re ever going to get through this coronavirus is everywhere, you know, I mean, there’s absolutely no way that we are going to be able to restrain this thing through wearing face masks. So as a result, you might as well just let ever, you know, get on with it and let society adapt and have herd immunity to it rather than enforce, you know, social restrictions and, you know, protective wearing, which actually does very little to protect the wearer. I mean, there were early research reports coming out at the beginning of coronavirus that it was 80% more likely to go in through your eye than it was through your mouth and nose.

1:01:37 So why aren’t we all wearing goggles? You know, I mean, this, this absurdity around the debate in the US has become totally dependent upon whether or not your governor is democratic or whether or not your governor is Republican. I mean, you’ve seen Florida and Texas, of course, now, you know, they’re now determined to produce as much data to show these two states in negative lights as possible. The fatality rate has stayed very, very, very low. I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine in Texas a couple of days ago. She’s a very well established policy foundation, you know, scholar. She’s a qualified attorney in many states, very intelligent lady. And she was saying, you know, would you like to know what the death rate is? She’s pulled up a whole lot of data. We went through it together. It was absolutely fascinating. The death rate now is less than seasonal flu in Texas. You know, this is, this is a disease which is killing much, much the same as flu does. It kills the elderly, it kills the infirm, it kills those who’ve gone into care homes. You know, this is, if you’re early and infirm, you’re a much higher fatality risk anyway, you should be staying, you should not go out in a, in a deadly flu season, you know, your risk of infection is much higher. At the same time, that should also be your choice as to whether or not you want to do it. You know, I mean, my father is 76 years old.

1:02:51 And, you know, he said, I mean, he said to me, like, I’ve got limited numbers of years left on this earth. I don’t want to spend one of them at home. You know, and that’s, and that’s his decision. That’s, that’s the personal freedom that we enjoy in the West. And in the US, it’s just become this hugely partisan debate now. And of course, what’s happening, you know, people, people are suffering from great trauma in terms of just the loneliness, which is producing, you know, alcohol consumption has gone drastically up, drug consumption is drastically up.

1:03:19 These areas of life are the unsung dangers of coronavirus. And actually, they’re going to kill far more people than anything to do with coronavirus itself, where the mortality rate is quite low. You know, and as a result, it’s, it’s a tragedy to watch this. It’s really a tragedy to watch the failed policy response of a lot of the Democrats over here who have been pushing this incredibly aggressive narrative for more lockdowns, for more restrictions, for more face masks.

1:03:46 It’s depressing, because it’s become such a partisan issue. And you just say, well, ultimately, yeah, you may be, you know, obviously, they’re trying to drive the debate towards the second lockdown, and then a postal election, which of course, is what they want. And in the UK, you know, and you and the European states, you’re starting to see the European states opening up, you don’t have anywhere near the same partisanship of the of the medical debate as you do over here.

1:04:09 And people are starting to get back to their normal lives. And you say, that’s what America should be doing. Right. But of course, it’s become such a hot topic now. So I mean, that’s it’s depressing to watch these states kind of force upon their citizens, a second level of absurdity, which was never required in the first place. Yeah, it’s a great observation. I mean, if you look at Europe and even England versus the states, there’s just, it’s almost just completely two different reactions. And in America, all I see, I try not to go to the New York Times, but I do the front page, it’s all the test cases, the cases that you’re testing positive, testing positive. We know these tests have false positives and false negatives. And but you know, where are the deaths? I mean, even Trump came out and said the median age was 78 on the desk, the median age of his press conference. And you know, all the cold morbidities, but it’s like nobody wants to have that conversation. It’s all and then it becomes political. And the fact there’s four months till the election, it seems like the Democrats are happy to thrash the economy, which is cutting the nose off despite the face and then use this political weapon and then use the fear of racism, maybe as a last ditch effort. And the collateral damage is brutal. It’s just brutal. It’s, it’s horrific. And I mean, that’s, it’s so dangerous and sad to watch that happen. You know, and it’s just, I mean,

1:05:28 Canada said, you know, come November the fourth, this whole debate will be over. You know, and it’s just so true, because, you know, if Joe Biden wins the election, oh, it was coronavirus that we finished with that months ago. I don’t know why anyone still cares. You know, it will be, it will be a new narrative November the fourth. If Trump wins, it will be lockdown two or lockdown seven by that point, you know, coming, coming to a, coming to a neighborhood near you before too long. It’s just the whole debate is now ridiculous.

1:05:56 And so as a result, I’m just so tired of this whole kind of real, real argument of BS, which is being put forward by everyone in this, in this, in this environment. And it’s just like, we need to get America back to work. We need to get the world back to work. You know, can’t, we can’t just continue Adam for an item, because we’re all afraid of, of catching, you know, a disease with a mortality rate of less than the flu in many, in many areas. And in Britain, thankfully, that seems to have been the relatively sensible policy which has been put in place.

1:06:27 You know, that Britain’s now starting to get back to work, France is back to work, Italy is getting back to work, you know, Italy, one of the worst places, getting back to work, China obviously has been back to work, you know, okay, there are restrictions still in place, understandably, but let’s, let’s get back to work. This disease is with us until the end of time. Now, you know, we will never now be free of coronavirus, we’ll call, you know, this strand of coronavirus, COVID-19. So as a result, you know, unless you want to shut down the whole world and make us all live in a plastic bubble with a padded cell for the rest of our lives, then, you know, why are we doing this? This is an absurdity.

1:07:02 Yeah, now very much. So you mentioned your dad there briefly. I’m curious, what were conversations like at the dinner table? I mean, your family has been political, but also very, very religious. And I know you studied theology at Oxford. Were you constantly talking about policy? Because obviously, you’re very well versed in it. And of course, then you spent some time in the city as well in the financial markets. I mean, it’s quite an interesting background that you bring to the table. But you know, what was it like as a kid? Yeah, I mean, I mean, our family is quite political. I mean, I’ll talk about my dad just because that’s the easiest sort of answer.

1:07:40 I mean, he and I have always been political. And, you know, I kind of was very interested in politics from a young age. It’s been in my life blood. His engagement with politics has been something which sort of has grown almost at the same time as I’ve grown up. So, you know, and particularly when I was a child, he was interested, but he was never involved.

1:08:07 Towards my kind of teenage years, he got more and more and more involved. And I got more and more and more interested. I studied it at school, you know, I was interested as a student of history, politics, geography, you know, kind of interested in the world as it’s being cast today. And then, of course, theology, as you rightly mentioned, I mean, theology, in my opinion, faith, to use a much broader term, but faith is like the silent ocean current which will, you know, need all boats to one shore. I mean, it’s such a powerful force in this world for both positive and negative and an understanding of faith and what motivates people to do certain actions and, you know, what motivates people to think beyond this world. It’s kind of, I mean, in British political debate, it’s very much ignored, which I think is hugely to the detriment of Britain and hugely also to a misunderstanding of much of our modern world. American politics engages with faith far more actively than British politics does. And, you know, so dad and I kind of growing up, well, when I was growing up, were always back and forth about policy ideas and about political discussion and faith based discussion and, you know, what was going on in this country, or this country or, you know, any other country. And, you know, part of that then also became his interest, which has always been on the kind of social justice side of things. He’s he’s always

1:09:40 Been a very concerned about social justice. You know, you could you can see that in any of his speeches in the House of Lords. His maiden speech talked strongly about his own upbringing, which was very tough, which is one of the reasons that the labor bench find it difficult to attack him because he comes from a background which they traditionally have tried to weaponize as their own. And, you know, his his policy, his policy area has always been social justice. His work on prison reform has been motivated by his obsession with family and family policy has been at the forefront of his his entire political work. You know, for me, my political interest has, you know, I’m not saying that I’m not interested in the same area as we are. But for me, I’ve always been more of a kind of geopolitical interest in how the world works, how it’s put together kind of guy. And, you know, that has then been, you know, that that has then reflected itself. And for example, you know, my interest in the European Union. I mean, I was always fascinated by this kind of empire across the sea, you know, debate we had in the UK, and from a very young age, I mean, dad, I mean, that’s actually a funny conversation, which not many people know, but, you know, dad was actually quite in favor of the European Union. When I was growing up as a child, and, you know, when I was a teenager, I remember having fierce arguments with him about it. And, you know, we, we would often go back and forth about

1:11:02 This. And I just said this whole concept is a nonsense. And it actually, it was very much a kind of poor, damascene, you know, road to Damascus moment, when the scales kind of firmly fail from his eyes. And he realized that David Cameron had come back with nothing from Brussels. And at that moment, sort of said, wait, what is this, you know, they’re never going to, they’re never going to help us out. They’re never going to want to renegotiate. They’re never going to give us anything that we want. So in that moment, he had this kind of, as I say, poor in the road Damascus moment, and, you know, he was then a Brexiteer. And that was kind of great for me. And then he became, as often converts to the cause do become, he becomes the most zealous of fighters. And so, you know, he was then very, very pro-Brexit and hugely onside, and obviously, then financially, we supported the the boat leave campaign. So yeah, I mean, you know, he and I have always had sort of a yin and yang kind of relationship in terms of politics, where he’s been far more concerned with kind of social, educational policy. And I’ve always been sort of the more like, economic, you know, regulatory environment, international, fiscal, community and geopolitical debate, because that’s kind of what I find interesting. And of course, that doesn’t always attract many votes in the domestic market, because most people don’t really care about foreign policy that much.

1:12:26 But for me, that’s just been my ballpark. And I, and he and I have consequently kind of fielded off each other quite well, you know, if there’s something which has come up, which is more in his ballpark, I’ve been able to hand it off very aptly to him. And if there’s something which is more kind of apt for me, he’s handed it off to me. And that played out really well in the Brexit area. I mean, he obviously handed a lot of that discussion to me, but also did speak, you know, on it, we both kind of twinned together, but Brexit was particularly sort of more my world than his. And so that was kind of fun for me to be involved in British politics at that particular moment in time. And I know you ran for MEP, but are you kind of happy to kind of leave the politics aside for now in Britain for now? And is that something that you might revisit in the future? Yeah, I mean, I mean, that was, that was, that was something which was, you know, quite fun at the time. I think the British political world has got more stability to it now.

1:13:30 You know, you really had, you know, kind of the last the last lap of victory could be done when we left the European Union on the 31st of January. But, and that debate was settled when the Tories won the election in December. Now, what I would love to see in British politics is a conservative government which has the full belief in Brexit. You need, you need to take advantage of this golden egg, which we’ve been given. And if you, if you let people down, you know, shame on you, because that is a real area, you know, and it worries, it does worry me, it does worry me about the Tory party, it worries me that the conservative party is conservative in name only. And it, you know, for example, it worries me that it took, you know, this kind of global backlash against China for the British government to reverse this decision on Hawaii. Now, you know, why are we waiting for a global outbreak of virus coming from China to reverse our decision on it? You know, we should, we shouldn’t have, we shouldn’t have given them the opportunity in the first place. So you need real conservatives in Britain to continue that fight. And that is, I mean, I will, I won’t be as actively involved, but I will still always be involved. Because, you know, I take great interest in the UK, I think it needs, I think the conservative party is its own worst enemy. It is it, it attracts an enormous amount of, you know, it’s so it’s too broad brush in many ways. And this was the great thing about the

1:15:06 Brexit party. And this was the great thing about Nigel, is that, you know, he was a great balancing force, you know, no matter how much the Tories couldn’t stand him, he was always there. And as a result, you know, you always had this great balancing force on the right of the Conservative Party to provide that voice for those millions of people who felt that the Conservative Party didn’t represent them. You know, and that’s what you need in Britain. And so I really hope that in the aftermath of Brexit, and what we’ve got now in Britain is that the Conservative Party doesn’t try and follow the Labour Party down the rabbit hole of, you know, tax and spend. And unfortunately, they are doing a lot of that. So you know, you need to have that strong right wing voice to pull, you know, the party back to its core origins of low taxation, low state, you know, interference, you know, personal freedom, personal property, individual liberty, freedom of speech, you know, you need to have those core tenants of the Conservative Party constantly hammered onto the door of the Conservative Party, because always they tend to forget it, and they tend to try and follow the Labour Party down that much easier, you know, the kind of wide, soft path, as the Bible says, of, you know, on the road to destruction, on the road to socialism. And so I will never be truly, you know, out of the UK world, I’ll always be interested. And actually, I also quite enjoy now, being able to kind of, you know, act as a

1:16:29 Little bit of a go between in terms of just putting people together in the US, putting people together in the UK, you know, and being able to tie those two worlds a little bit closer together. So that that’s also quite, you know, enjoyable for me, and, and provides another layer of kind of interest and activity, which I never expected to have. Can you speak a bit more about Nigel Farage? I know he was at your wedding. And I think that he was one of the first guys that you professed your love of Candace to, I know I might be wrong on that. But like, what did the public what did the public not know about Nigel? How did I get him wrong? Like, what does he really like? Well, I would recommend this, if you if you want to see a side of Nigel, which not many people have seen, watch his interview with Candace on her show. Because that is, I was watching, I watched that whole episode, I watched it being filmed, we filmed it in London. And I, I came away from that. And I said, I’ve never seen Nigel like that before. Nigel is a really terrific bloke. I mean, I, I only have good things to say about him. I mean, he’s he, yes, he was one of the first people in whom our relationship was confided. He happened to be at the conference in Palm Beach, where I was there. And I was we were sort of Candace and I were kind of like, getting to know each other. I mean, nothing was said, nothing happened. But it was very much a kind of this, I really find this girl fascinating,

1:17:52 You know, and he was one of those people I said that to. And, you know, he has been, I mean, he’s first of all, he’s so much fun. I mean, Nigel is just so much fun. You know, you will, you will really find in him a guy who you can have a good laugh with. I mean, that and that’s one of his best characteristics. He has a sense of humor. I mean, that’s one of the best characteristics of being a conservative, you know, I mean, when I do have to, you know, kind of hobnob or associate with, with liberals, you always find yourself on eggshells, because it’s so uncomfortable, because you can’t say anything. Nigel has no such qualms and is always is never unafraid to go there. He, he and I see each other a fair amount. And we catch up quite often. You know, even when he’s depressed, he’s still very happy. He still has a positive outlook. I mean, he’s a real fighter.

1:18:44 I will say that about him. I mean, he never gives up, which is incredible to watch. I mean, even, you know, I mean, if you think about, I mean, I often say this about what Nigel’s done. And when he and I kind of got to know each other, I mean, I actually just sort of was in slight awe of the fact that he has given up, you know, basically 30 years of his life. And I mean, the other part being is that which nobody really ever thinks about, but on countless, you know, so much money. I mean, you know, he sacrificed both personally from what he could have made, and personally, what he then had to spend on things like security, and all these campaigns that he was running, you know, he’s given basically everything to this one idea of that, of the sovereign nation. And as a result, I mean, I sort of just was in awe when I first kind of was like, I put two and two together and finally made that realization that basically this guy has given everything. And as a result, I’m always just so impressed with his dedication to the cause, he never gives up. And so I mean, apart from being just a great, great laugh, and great fun to be around, and great to have a bear with, you know, he’s, he’s one of those guys who, you talk to him, and he’s, he’s his depth of experience over the over that 30 years is incredible. And we were honored to have him at our wedding. I mean, he gave the toast and, you know, we had a great time. And, you know, that was that was still in the midst of the kind

1:20:05 Of Brexit struggle. You know, it was last year, just before the you know, coming on coming into the election, after the Brexit party had obviously completely demolished everyone at the European elections. So I mean, it was, you know, he and I have been very close, we talk quite a lot, you know, and it’s been great fun to work with him on so many different projects. And the other great thing is also that he’s one of these kind of characters who, I mean, and some extent, this is kind of also a role which seems to be, you know, given to me, which is kind of hilarious, but also Candace as well, it’s kind of these sort of, you know, mysterious conservative figures behind the scenes who, you know, nobody ever really knows what what they’re up to. And that is actually quite funny with Nigel is that he often does have plans up his sleeve, which nobody ever realizes, and then sort of and then sort of unleashes them upon the nation to the unsuspecting. And that is and that’s always great to watch because the media reaction is always, you know, the guardian getting its knickers in a twist and, you know, the independent trying to run another hit piece on him. And it’s just fun to watch. So it’s fun to be involved with him.

1:21:07 Sounds like a lot of fun. All right, I got to ask you about the new right wing power couple. Talk to me about all things Candace. I also heard that you proposed in two weeks. Tell me, tell me about you and Candace, your first meeting with her and like how you guys are now.

1:21:25 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the story of us meeting is I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it. I mean, basically, I won’t give you the full details. There’s plenty of areas where you can find that online. But I mean, it’s yeah, we did we met and we were engaged within about two and a half weeks, three weeks. You know, my general opinion is when you see a good thing, don’t hang around.

1:21:49 So, you know, it was it was something which neither of us saw coming neither of us expected. I mean, it was just, you know, it was it was divine. I mean, it was God God inspired. You know, he led me in that direction. And, you know, it was just incredible to watch. I was still shocked about it, you know, months later, after this whole thing had sort of happened. And I was just like, what is where is my where is my life gone, you know, in the last six months. And what I’ll say is that the two of us have the same brain in many ways, you know, and we share we share just kind of we do share it’s very difficult to put our finger on it. We share a kind of common brain.

1:22:33 That’s the best way of putting it doesn’t sound very romantic. But you know, it is just this thought pattern, which she and I both kind of tie into we understand each other, we understand how we think we understand the way the outlook on the world. You know, she has depths of courage, which, you know, I can only imagine would have been replicated on the kind of chivalric battlefields of, of ancient Europe. You know, it’s just incredible. I love that about her. She has no holds barred, you know, she is such a powerful force in this world for good, which is just inspiring to be part of. And you know, I mean, I went for a run around DC yesterday, and it was just like, I was just thinking, you know, it was just how inspiring it is to be with her. And you know, the other great part is that you never know where the future is going. You know, and that’s kind of a great, that’s so much fun, because you we get to tie into this narrative, which she and I are building together. And you know, neither of us really have, you know, that much sort of, this is where my life will be in, you know, in 20 years, you know, we’re more like, where will our life be in 20 days, rather than 20 years. And so it’s just kind of, it’s great to be with her on that journey. I mean, I think, with me, you know, she sees, you know, the other side of the equation, which balances her, you know, and we sort of do balance each other. And as I say, we share this kind of common thought pattern, which is great.

1:24:05 I mean, the term I mean, right wing power couple, I mean, the the left, well, people love to say whatever they want to say. But I mean, it’s, I mean, I’m not sure there’s any power, you know, I don’t really know what that means, if I’m honest, but I mean, it’s more just a kind of, it’s fun to be together with her and do things which we never imagined doing. I mean, you know, it’s certainly true that we both, you know, we both add to each other. I mean, one of our biggest supporters and a great friend of ours calls us a force multiplier, where he says one plus one equals 10, you know, and it’s just and I think that is true, because, you know, I bring a lot of the fiscal, you know, the business, the kind of the brains behind an operation, which, you know, it’s, it’s a bit like trying to shackle, how do I, you know, I don’t even know what the comparable force in the world would be. But if you tried to, you know, shackle the trade winds or something, you know, you just watch this great force of nature, which moves, which moves debates, which moves arguments, which blows up, you know, established principles, which is Candace Owens, and you know, then you give her a bit of harnessed power, which I can provide through kind of a business structure and through and I, you know, through ways in which we can work together.

1:25:19 And yeah, I mean, you do get a pretty powerful combination. And I mean, it’s been fun to, to work with her. And I mean, she’s, she would say the same thing is that, you know, she could never do what she does without me. And you know, that’s we’ve been growing together in the last year. And that’s just been terrific to watch. And that’s, you know, in part, you know, her success would never come without her, you know, success would never come without me, the same with my success, you know, it’s been fun to grow as a couple together. And then tie that all into, you know, a national debate, which calls more and more and more for a voice like hers. And so, you know, you’ve got a really kind of potent factor there. And of course, you know, it’s kind of people want her to run for office, and people want her to do this, that, the other. Well, you know, at the moment, you know, we’re just trying to save America, you know, let’s, let’s get that on the books. You know, I think we’ve saved the UK. And I think, you know, we certainly saved the UK from the European Union. Let’s, let’s get Donald Trump back in the White House, and then we can save, then we can work on the rest of the world. You know, so that’s just been fun to be a part of as well. And you know, obviously, you know, we met the president, and that’s kind of an enormous, you know, enormously fun experience. And, you know, so there’s, there’s just so much we do together now. And I mean,

1:26:35 I think she, she and I just compliment each other so much. Is it strange when people push, probably the both of you, you know, into office, you know, when you’re going to run, I’m sure you both hear that ad nauseam. Like, what do you say to that? And what do you think when that happens? Well, I mean, they, thankfully, they don’t ask me very much. Because a stranger and a stranger in a foreign land doesn’t often have the appeal that the American does in America.

1:27:04 So I mean, I’m not really asked whether I’m going to run because you know, I don’t really care about me. And that’s totally fine. But for Candace, I think, for her, the opinion is very much that if America calls, she will she will answer. And that’s the kind of answer that she’s always given, which is that, you know, there’s been a there’s been a kind of lacking of courageously a courageous, courageous leadership voices on the conservative side. And as a result of that, you know, it’s been very difficult for her to sort of say, well, I will never I will never run because if America does need her, then she will, you know, and that’s and that’s the opinion that I think she takes. So I mean, you know, I will never put words in her mouth as to whether or not she would run, you know, she finds it kind of entertaining people ask her about it. And as a result, you know, I think that there is a, you know, there is a depth, there is a depth, sorry, not a depth, a depth of courageous voices on the right, which, you know, she would obviously be one of the most courageous. And, you know, she is like Trump in that regards. And, you know, she does she does just have no holds barred. And of course, she’s a woman which gives her out of power. And, you know, she’s a black, she’s a minority woman in America, which gives her an awful lot of power. So, you know, in the long run, what does she want to do? It kind of depends on what we want to do together. But I think that, you know,

1:28:27 If America called, she would answer. Do you guys worry about your safety? Yeah, yeah, I mean, actually, that’s funny. You mentioned that I mean, we have, yes, I mean, very much so. I mean, I worry about her safety more than she worries about her safety. And, you know, America, unfortunately, does have a history of political assassination in the same way that Britain doesn’t have one, you know, I think we’ve had one prime minister who was assassinated, you know, at the beginning of the 19th century, and America, unfortunately, just doesn’t even have that, you know, that legacy, it has a far more sad legacy in that area, you know, stemming from civil rights leaders to presidents to political activists. And so that plays into my mind a lot. And we have had to take some action to stem that kind of concern, because I couldn’t justify both as our husband and our business partner, you know, sitting on the sideline whilst, you know, my, you know, whilst my wife puts herself in places which I just feel so uncomfortable letting her go. So we have actually recently had to sort of, you know, step that up a little bit, which gives me a lot of comfort, it’s not it’s an expense, which of course, we prefer not to make, but it also, unfortunately, it’s just something we have to think about these days. And you know, you can, and I mean, Nigel, actually coming back to that conversation, you know, we had that conversation with him, because of course, he’s had to have

1:29:58 Security for the last, you know, 20 years, and he sort of said, you know, now you’ve crossed that threshold where you can never come back from really. And, you know, that is something which is a sad thing, but is, but it’s just a reality. Right. It’s kind of part of the part of what you signed up for, unfortunately, like meeting, what’s it like meeting Donald Trump? The president is one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. I mean, I’ll put that out there as the first thing. He is, he is absolutely brilliant. I mean, I really can’t think of any other way to describe him any other word he he’s five steps ahead of everyone else.

1:30:39 I mean, and that’s the funny part is then reading the media reaction to him. And, you know, he’s an idiot. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. He is, he is six steps ahead. He’s seven, he’s seven steps ahead of some people, you know, it’s just incredible to watch. I mean, he knows exactly what he’s doing. And he is so funny. I mean, we had the privilege of sitting down with him earlier on this year for lunch. And it was just absolutely, I mean, we were both laughing, but there were serious discussions. There were serious policy discussions. He also, he gone as a lot of advice from those around him, which was kind of really great to see because, you know, a lot of elected leaders go down the route of just kind of becoming, you know, me, me, me centrist, you know, but actually, he takes the opinion of a lot of people around him.

1:31:28 And when you know, he’s when he’s satisfied by the debate, he’ll go with his, you know, he’ll use that to then add to his instinct, and he’ll go and then he’ll he’ll form a decision on the back of that. And, you know, obviously, we, we, you know, Candace has spoken to him quite a few times about racial issues and about what, you know, how what the response should be. That’s been great, because, you know, he actually, he really values her opinion. And then, you know, I mean, he’s just, he’s one of those guys who loves America. I mean, that’s the other part. I mean, you know, a lot of his debate comes back to what is best for the American people. And I mean, his and his base, you know, and that’s really the people that he constantly talks about are his, is his base, you know, and he’s always saying, like, what would my base want, you know, what, what does the base support and, and that’s, and then you’ve seen that put into place with his policy. I mean, it’s not just a meaningless conversation had it, you know, had it had it around table, it’s, it’s something that then becomes actively involved in in the US administration, his, his, his, his fight against the Chinese theft of intellectual property, his fight for his base, his fight for the, you know, on the flip side of the kind of tariff argument, his flight, his fight for farmers within this country, you know, and giving them handouts from the tariffs that they’ve been taking him from the Chinese, you know,

1:32:43 His fight for the blue collar workers of Pennsylvania through Ohio, through Michigan, you know, is, is inspiring to watch, because it’s exactly what he campaigned on. And I mean, of course, this was, you know, a mantra, which was often wheeled out in the first couple of years of the US administration, which was promises made promises kept. And, you know, that, but you can really see that in action. And, and then of course, his fight for, you know, American troops abroad has been, has been kind of great to watch his taking to task a lot of the established world order, which, you know, actually basically took advantage a lot of America was one of those was is is great to watch, because it, you’ve got these kind of, you know, these great institutions which to challenge their orthodoxy is anathema. And he’s just caused cause time on this.

1:33:28 And he just says, this is an absurd, this is an absurd world order, which doesn’t stand to America’s advantage. So that’s been, that’s been inspiring. And you know, then he’s also very interested about people, he always wants to know, you know, he, he’s met, you know, I mean, he’s met friends of mine, or at least, you know, he’s met political friends of mine within America, you know, people who I mainly know through Candace, and they will come away with the same reaction as well. I mean, you know, I know he’s met Dave Rubin and people like that, you know, and it’s been, and you know, when he met Dave Rubin, you know, he just was so supportive. And, and I mean, that’s kind of inspiring, because again, you know, people try and portray him as this kind of homophobic, racist, xenophobic, everything, and it’s just absurd. And it’s so tiring to watch. Because when you meet the guy, you realize he’s nothing but, you know, and actually, he’s got a legacy, which was was stand in his favor.

1:34:17 Yeah, funny, I asked the same question to Dave Rubin and Charlie Kirk and a few others, and they’ve all said the same thing you said, they said, he’s a lot of fun. He’s kind of cool to hang out with. And then the opposite of what everything is portrayed in the media. That’s what everyone says. Just speak on religion a bit, because it’s something that’s really important to you. It’s important to Candace. I know it was always important to your father.

1:34:38 And you know, I had Dennis Prager on the other day, and I never really saw how it was a cornerstone of kind of the founding fathers, you know, that assumption that there was this religious element, and I had never really thought about it. Again, it’s not talked about in the UK. It is talked about in American politics. It’s just your thoughts on it. And is it something that maybe we should all think more about or embrace, or at least allow to be in the conversation, as opposed to kind of, you know, not not allowing it to be talked about, especially in politics?

1:35:08 Yeah, that’s a very interesting question. Because I have some pretty strong opinions about it. And I I sort of think that, you know, coming back to that conversation about Britain versus America, a lot of the reasons I think conservatism in Britain has really lost its way is because we’ve cut that tie with faith at the core. And I don’t think you can really have conservatism without faith. Because ultimately, what are you talking about? You’re talking about mankind, which has fallen from grace from the original favor of God, and is inherently flawed. As a result, there is no solution to be found in government, because a collective group of individuals will have no greater wisdom or authority over the failings of another man than, you know, than an individual governing himself. We are all human, we will all make mistakes.

1:36:08 Therefore, collective government will still make mistakes, right? Now, the left believes in a utopian ideal of perfect humanity, which will never be achieved. And as a result, the Association of Conservatism with original sin, with the doctrine, if you like, of original sin, I believe is so close, you know, we must never lose our tie to that. In the UK, what I think has really gone wrong is that the UK Conservative Party is saying, well, actually, more government equals the answer. And that is a dangerous doctrine to go down, because that is exactly what we’ve campaigned against when we campaigned against the USSR, when we fought, when we had the Cold War, when you’ve had established communist regimes, which have tried to paint that picture of a perfectable human society. And as a result, you know, what do you do if you cut conservatism from faith? You cut a drift. There is a great virtue ethicist called Alistair MacIntyre, he’s quite well known in terms of his published works on virtue ethics. Now, I’m not a virtue ethicist, but his analysis of the problem with modern society, which he describes as a motorism, which is basically where in a post enlightenment world, a lot of Western society has tried to sever its original roots with the faith based system of rules that were that were grown up over hundreds of years in in medieval and then Renaissance and then, you know, early modern Europe, you know, that severing of ties has led to a conservative movement, which has cut a drift.

1:37:52 Now, in America, you’ve still got a very strong link between faith and between politics. And that’s a great thing, because it ties people back to that core belief structure that you need, that we are not perfectable, and that we need to have, you know, another answerable authority beyond that of those human institutions, which we all know and, and, and, you know, and love. And so we need we need to look higher, we need to look above this earth. And I think without that power, you then get into a very dangerous rule of desperate despotism where you know, one one my moral truth is as great as your moral truth. And of course, that’s what postmodern world view espouses that there is no great universal moral truth. You know, men can be women, women can be men, up is down, left is right. You know, and as a result, you will cut a drift into this world of false narratives, where anything is effectively true. And that’s a debate that I’ve had with so many liberals. And actually, I mean, I personally think that the entire liberal versus conservative debate can actually just be traced back to that. And you know, that if you if you the way to kind of cut the crap with a lot of with a lot of arguments about policy, is really just to go straight to that first question. And I often do and I often try and get through. I mean, I’ve had this debate with members of my own family who are, you know, on the left, very much on the left. And you know, I’ve said, Do you believe in a

1:39:16 Perfectable human society? And they’ll go, Yes, you know, yes, I can. Yes. And I’ve even had that debate with members of the conservative government in the UK, which worries me a lot. But, you know, do you believe in a perfectable human society? Yes, I do. You know, do you do you believe that there will and then you flip, you flip Jesus’ words, and you say, Do you believe that there will never be wars that there will never be famine, you know, that there will never be rumors of wars that there will never be suffering. And they sort of go, I believe that we can, you know, we can, we can, we can try and aspire and create that world. And it’s like, well, as soon as you do that, you’re lost, mate, because, you know, that will never be the situation, you know, we will never be able to have a world in which is perfect. We will never be able to have a world where that, you know, humanity becomes its own God. And, you know, we create a, you know, a perfect set of judges who can sit above the world order and judge impassionately and perfectly about every case that will never happen. And so if you cut that tie between faith and conservatism, you start to go down that rabbit hole. And that’s very dangerous. And I mean, actually, Thatcher talks a lot about faith in her later works and basically says that the common, the reality of faith in American politics, she finds very inspiring because it tethers people to reality. And I think that’s

1:40:31 Exactly what it does. Wow. I’ve never heard anyone break it down like that, where you can ask that simple question and say, maybe the root of all this is something no one wants to even have that conversation that breaks it down. Is man inherently flawed? And do we just have to find a system with dealing with that? Or do you believe that we’ll get to a point where man won’t be flawed? Like those are the kind of the two, the two camps, right?

1:40:54 Yeah, I mean, that’s, I mean, that’s exactly where, if you look at, you know, any communist society, and I mean, can’t, you know, Candace’s upcoming book will, will, you know, there are, there are areas of that which talk about this. And it’s, it’s, it’s such a basic question, because every communist regime believes that human society is perfectable. You know, Karl Marx and the Communist Manifesto wrote the abolition, you know, was talking about the abolition of family, talking about the abolition of God. He was talking about the abolition of all the existing institutions which supported that ideal. And that humans were perfectable, you just needed to remove the class system and have common ownership of the means of production, to establish that, that, that framework. And it’s an absurdity. And therefore, every communist, every communist regime has always sought to replace God with government, and has always sought to replace, you know, any, like the church with government, you know, it’s been, it’s been a first step. It’s like the first step in a communist regime, control the media, and abolish the church, you know, abolish any faith system, right? It’s easy. And those didn’t always turn out so well. A few few last questions about you. If I was to ask five of your best friends, what is George’s superpower? How does this guy get everything done that he gets done? What would they tell me? What is it?

1:42:23 I am a, I’m very motivated. And I’m pretty, I get up very early. I do quite a lot of exercise. I, I’m quite a, I’m a believer in, in sort of trying to maximize the 24 hours of the day, to put up money. I mean, I’m not very good at giving myself compliments, Brian, so you’re gonna have to beg with me on this one. But I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s something that I think, my dad sort of said to me from a young age, he was like, early to early to bed, early to rise makes you healthy, wealthy and wise. And the older I get, the more I appreciate that expression. I certainly try and maximize those hours in the day. I’m very determined. I mean, from a young age, I mean, I sort of another part of my area that people are not always that familiar with, but, you know, I, I do an awful lot of running. I’ve done three Ironman triathlons.

1:43:23 And I’ve probably done at least 30 other triathlons on top of that. It’s sort of something to take your mind out of yourself. Don’t take yourself too seriously. I mean, that’s the other thing. I mean, I always try and, I always try and laugh at myself.

1:43:35 I mean, Candace folks find me the whole time, which is perfect because otherwise my own ego and my own arrogance will get way too, you know, get way too big. And I’m just very much a believer in trust God. Don’t trust man. You know, walk, walk humbly with your God and just have a determined point of view on the world and sort of kind of keep yourself real and, and keep, and work, and work hard. And so that’s kind of where I just draw my strength from. I try and do that every day. And now I have a wife who supports me. And I mean, I would say also that marriage is one of the greatest institutions. I mean, having, having a supportive other half, it’s like, it’s just a totally different world. And you know, and I mean, people, some of my friends are, you know, very much single. They very much enjoy being single. And that’s the lifestyle they’ve chosen. And that’s totally fine. My opinion is always being kind of, you know, I want to find a partner in life, someone who supports my goals. And now that I have one, it’s an unimaginable source, source of strength from which you can draw kind of hope and pride and determination. And as a result, I absolutely love being married and I love being with Candace.

1:44:56 And I think that’s, that’s another terrific point. Yeah. Well, it shows by watching you guys. And that’s an amazing thing. So that’s good. I, I did my first Ironman 70.3 about two and a half years ago. It was quite an experience. Yeah. Which one did you do? I was down in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and it was like May 18. We made a whole movie about it called Iron Mind.

1:45:16 And I had 90 days to train. I got challenged to do it on a plant. I had to do it on a hundred percent plant based diet as well. And it was a crazy experience, but it was, it was, yeah, a lot of respect for that whole thing. And also just being in that experience mentally, it’s just, it’s fascinating, you know, going through the training. I mean, so many, so many demons you have to confront, you know, on those long runs and stuff. It’s, it was powerful stuff. Yeah. Um, well, the question, questions for you, what was the best day of your life and the worst day of your life?

1:45:49 Uh, the best day of my life was the day I got married easily without a shot of it out. That’s a very easy one to answer. The worst day of my life. Yikes. That is probably a very difficult question to answer. Um, um, what would be the worst day of my life? I mean, I, I think the worst day of my life was probably, you know, when I was probably in my later teenage years, I think I got into, I got into a, you know, kind of a low work, low expectation environment where I was just sort of ambling through life. And I think my father sort of called me a disappointment, um, you know, or said, like, I have a lot of shame to do with you. And I, and that moment stuck with me, you know, maybe it suddenly made me kind of buck up my attitude and just say like, what the, you know, what, if he’s drawing, if he’s come from his background, I mean, I find my father’s background so inspiring where he came from, um, you know, which was just nothing, you know, grew up in the slums of Britain, you know, no father, um, you know, alcoholic mother, everything. And I, I just think that, you know, I think he said, you know, you, you, you’re a disappointment to me or you, I think his words were something like, you know, you put shame on my family, you know, you put shame on the family sort of thing. And I just thought, gosh, and those words just hit me so hard. And I never looked back after that moment.

1:47:10 I just thought I will never let that ever be the situation ever again. Um, you know, kind of draw, draw, I actually drove, you know, drew real strength from that moment. Um, and I’ve said that to him before, you know, and he, he wouldn’t, he, he would laugh now at that because, you know, I think we’re in a very different camp where we were then. Um, and, but I think at the time it just hit me so hard and I just thought I can’t ever let that, you know, be the case. Yeah. It’s great to have a father who can say that to you. And it’s great to have a son who can take, take something like that seriously. You know, obviously he didn’t play that card very often and it meant something to you. And, um, yeah, the more I learned about your father, I mean, like you said, he’s got a background that seems like a labor party background. I mean, it’s fascinating when you read it. And, uh, I guess, like you said, maybe that makes him super strong as a conservative because it kind of takes a lot out off the table and, uh, yeah, really fascinating background for sure. Um, what scares you? Uh, God, plenty of things scare me. Um, I think a world, um, I mean, going back to that theological debate, you know, a world, a world without God scares me an awful lot. Um, you know, a society, a godless society scares me an awful lot. Um, in turn, following directly from that, the, the world, which the, which the left wants to bring into reality scares me a lot. Um,

1:48:40 The world in which my children would grow up if the left were in power scares me a lot. Um, you know, I have, I do have an enormous faith in God and I do trust obviously that he has, you know, plans for this world, which are beyond the comprehension of, of all men. Um, but at the same time, you know, not at this, not bad, but we obviously don’t know what those plans are, you know? And so as a result, you know, I, it worries me that in, you know, who knows if, if we may let this nation crumble or may let, you know, Britain and America crumble in many ways.

1:49:13 Um, you know, and invite this kind of godless socialism into our lands, then who knows where that will go and who knows what the reality of that, um, that society would look like. Um, and that, that frightens me an awful lot because I don’t think that the Democrats and I don’t think that they have party have good intentions for either country. I think that they are desperate for power. I think that the left invites chaos because from chaos comes dictatorship.

1:49:39 And I think that that, you know, that established kind of chaotic, um, despotism, which would then emerge would be hugely detrimental to, to the individual freedoms and liberties, which we all love. Reagan said it best. We are only one generation away. If, if, if, you know, fascism never comes to America, it will come the name of liberalism. We are only one generation away from the death of freedom. And you know, those, those sayings are so accurate and so true. And they’re even more true than they’ve ever been before. Social media, going back to that first conversation we had at the very beginning, social media has become an easy, um, you know, manage metric through which the left can control debate and therefore free speech is under attack.

1:50:22 And so the death of free speech terrifies me, uh, because it is only through the free speech that ideas become debated. They’ve become, um, you know, they become refined, you know, it’s the old principle of debate, which, you know, you’re taught at Oxford thesis, uh, antithesis, synthesis, conclusion, you know, that those key metrics are the way in which we can actually, you know, weed out bad ideas from good ideas and the rewriting of history, the end of debate, the end of freedom of speech, the end of the end of kind of Western civics is a terrifying world to move into because then we just, because then what happens, we have to replay history all over again. We have to go through that horrible experiment of socialism and, and through the restriction of freedom and liberty simply because of the fact that the left has forgotten its own history lesson. You know, what, what happened with socialism in all these other countries? Let’s replay it again. Let’s see what happens.

1:51:18 That’s a disaster. Um, that’s a disaster for us. That’s a disaster for our world. And that’s a disaster for you and me and our children, the generation yet to come. Final questions. If you could pick up a phone and call up the 20 year old George Farmer and give that young man some advice, I guess he’s at Oxford at that point.

1:51:41 What would you tell him based on everything you know, now, 10 years later, 11 years later, what would you tell him? Oh, uh, great question. Um, I mean, I studied myself.

1:51:54 The following success secrets are only available inside the London Real tribe, where you get exclusive access and insights from our high performance guests on wealth creation, productivity, leadership, morning routines, health, and wellbeing. To join our tribe community, go to London Real dot TV forward slash tribe. Now let’s continue with the show. George, those are some massively powerful worlds and some great George Orwell quotes as well. And I appreciate you and your thoughts here. Um, you know, I think if people look at their CV, your CV, they wouldn’t expect, you know, this conversation. And I really appreciate you and everything you stand for and, and the way you articulate a lot of these points, you know, it’s, it’s really eye opening. And, um, yeah, you know, thanks for the leadership.

1:52:42 Thanks for going on this crazy adventure of yours to America. It sounds like you guys are really doing some force multiplying over there. So, uh, I appreciate everything you and Candace do. I know it’s not easy being on the front lines. I can only imagine and yet you guys do it, you know, like a professional as in you make it look easy and I know it’s not. So, um, really thanks for everything you guys do. I really appreciate it.

1:53:04 Well, thank you very much. And thanks for having me on the show. It’s been great to be here. My pleasure. Um, if people want to get a hold of you, it’s probably difficult.

1:53:11 You’re right. You’re kind of a ghost when it comes out to the social media. Do you, do you try to funnel all the attention over to Blexit or what’s the best way for people to get in touch? Yeah, I mean, Blexit is a great way. I mean, Blexitfoundation.org, you know, if you want to get in touch with foundation, I’ll probably be able to get in touch with me as a result. Um, I’m pretty active there.

1:53:34 Uh, I mean, my wife, uh, info Candace owns.com. She has some pretty, um, you know, she does a fair one. We have some people who look after that inbox occasionally. Um, and you know, otherwise I don’t, I don’t go on social media. I used to have all kinds of social media.

1:53:50 I got rid of it all. I’m not, I don’t need to be on it. She’s on it. That’s fine by me. So, you know, otherwise you’ll see me crop up now and again. And, um, you know,

1:54:01 Why did you jump off? Um, because I, I don’t, I’m not sure it’s that healthy if I’m honest. Um, and I think that social media is a dangerous place to be it. I, I’ve never looked back and thought, oh, I really miss it. I actually look back and think I get out of bed in the morning and I’m not angry.

1:54:24 Which I just think is a really refreshing way to be about the world. And I like my mornings to be, you know, filled with what am I going to do today? And you know, the best stars of the day for me are between five to eight a.m. And, you know, it’s just like, let’s get going on the day. You know, I don’t need to be on social media.

1:54:41 Candace, Candace has enough social media presence for the two of us as far as I’m concerned. So that’s fine. Yeah, you’re probably right on that for sure. Um, excellent stuff. Next time, let’s do this in person, either in London or in DC. And, um, yeah, really thanks for the time and thanks for the insights and, uh, really power stuff. You’re giving me a lot to think about today.

1:55:00 So, um, yeah, again, wishing you both all the best. Keep up the good fight. Um, you’ve got all of our support over here and, um, yeah, best of luck in the future. Thanks very much, Brian. And keep, keep, keep up your good work as well. I know you guys are doing great stuff. Cool, man. Thank you. We will, we will for sure. And for everybody watching, like I said, please share this link via the sidebar, uh, and share this on all your social media channels. And until next time, we will see you on London Real. Take care.