Phil Heath (AKA The Gift) - Becoming Indestructible: How To Build A Champion's Mindset

Full transcript: Phil Heath (AKA The Gift) on London Real

1:27 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Phil Heath, the American professional bodybuilder, entrepreneur and philanthropist who won the Mr. Olympia title seven times back to back between 2011 and 2017. You were nicknamed “The Gift” and became world renowned for your incredible work ethic and positive mindset. Last year you returned to the Mr. Olympia competition at the age of 41, determined to equal the record for the most Mr. Olympia titles, and finished a very impressive third place after a full year off.

1:57 Today you continue to inspire athletes around the globe while also supporting at-risk young people and raising awareness around issues of mental health. Phil, welcome to London Real. Ah, thank you for having me. It’s great to have you. I’m looking to go deep today and I was reading some quotes of yours recently and I wanted to quote them back to you because they were powerful.

2:18 You once said, “There’s no secret to greatness. What separates the good from the great is the very rare trait of not being satisfied with good.” You went on to say, “If you want the victory, then be prepared for the fight.” And Phil, when I heard that it immediately reminded me of Michael Jordan as we saw him in the documentary The Last Dance, where we saw what it takes to win, and it ain’t always pretty. What it takes to win.

2:45 And I was wondering, you know, from a guy who’s been at the top, who changed the game, who brought real professionalism to the sport, can you tell us, what does it actually take to win? A lot of faith in yourself. I’m just understanding that every day is an opportunity that must be seized with massive action, so you can’t just dabble in these things. You have to really own who the heck, you are you. But to be honest, like, you truly have to figure out what your current habits are, because I think a lot of people talk about their goals but they’re not assessing their current habits, because those same habits are going to yield either positive or negative results.

3:27 So for me it was always like, okay, when I won my first amateur competition, I’m thinking, okay, what were my current habits, although I won, how can I improve on that? And over the course of a 15-plus-year career, I was able to garner seven Olympia titles. But overall it was more about taking each moment, each day, and breaking things down even to the minute of why I do what I do, and understanding that if some things don’t work, I actually have the answer as to how to pivot.

3:58 But we always talk about pivoting, sometimes we pivot into a negative direction because we’re just trying to avoid what’s really in front of us, which is the hard, hard work. Maybe I need to pivot and face my own fears, face myself, face the criticism, taking in, produce more knowledge and education about who I am, or emotional intelligence. And just go for it. I mean, it really is a war with your own brain, isn’t it, to do the kind of things that you’ve done.

4:27 You might argue success in general. It is that war with your own brain. Right. So checking the self-doubt, checking the gratitude practices. I’ve seen you being quite grateful on your socials as well.

4:37 I mean, is that, is that the ultimate lesson to people listening, that you’ve gotta master your own mind? Yeah, and it’s not static. It’s very dynamic, right? Like life is ever changing, so you know, the way I thought maybe as a 15-year-old kid is, no, nowhere near my process as a 41 year-old adult, and that comes with, you know, experiencing life. And I think not knowing everything is great because there’s so much more knowledge you can attain by having that mindset of like, let me empty my cup right now, let me absorb more information from some people that may have experienced things in areas that I’m not an expert at, always having a willingness to learn and knowing that my job is just not finished yet.

5:24 There’s so much more that I have to offer, and that’s the cool part of having that uncertainty of like, what, where my life may go, because when I was growing up in Seattle, Washington, wanting to be an NBA player at five-nine, you know, I was able to realize, okay, there’s some steps that I have to take just to get a college scholarship. I was able to do that and during college I did not think that I was going to be a professional bodybuilder. Okay, I was going to school for business and computer science, and I switched over to IT, and lo and behold, basketball at the collegiate level just did not transpire into the professional career that I had dreamt of, but I was able to pivot in the right direction, taking all of those lessons.

6:14 Those losses became better lessons for me, and understanding that, wow, I can make this applicable in other areas. So when bodybuilding came into my life, I realized, wow, I already have a lot of tools that some people may not, which is being a self-starter. I grew up as an only child, so I always had to get myself up for school. My mom and dad, you know, they worked full-time, so there was no one but just me sometimes getting myself up, so being a self-starter, understanding that, you know, I have to be willing to do the work, with where there’s someone watching or no one watching, and you know, over that course of time, and just realizing like, wow, becoming a bodybuilder, it was like I was in that perfect fit to exude every attribute that I had growing up, and I did not get there without taking those whys in the road.

7:06 Not all were pretty, but understanding that it was all about putting myself in the best position to succeed, and that’s something I preach about non-stop, and that’s why I’m in full gratitude, because I did not wake up. I did not come into this world, you know, with everything handed to me. I had to work for everything, just like everybody else, but realizing that even me placing third at that last year’s Olympia, I wasn’t upset. I was disappointed in my performance, because I felt that I didn’t peak, and that’s just being an athlete, that’s just being honest.

7:40 But I was able to look at everyone in that audience and just be like, wow, they’re able to see me after two and a half years of just inactivity, two surgeries. This snap, how about I just absorb this moment? These people are kind of in shock at the same time, because they’re like, well, we’re not used to seeing Phil lose. How they saw me, I hope, was them sending me a man that is confident in his abilities, gracious for what he accomplished. They saw me hug on the other guys, congratulate them, raise their hands up, because that’s what this is about.

8:15 You have your time, and someone else may have their time, and you congratulate them, and I can move on and try to figure out my next, you know, five chess moves. But all in all, it’s all about being gracious. It’s all about being in gratitude, because I was not owed anything, and I’m just thankful for the experiences that I actually have as being a seven-timer Olympia. I mean, heck, I’m tied with Schwarzenegger. Okay, there is nothing to be sad about, or anything like that.

8:44 Anyone would love to be able to say they are tied with Arnold Schwarzenegger in bodybuilding that lifts weights, no question about it. So there’s a reason why I smile all the time, because this kid growing up in Seattle did not have a clue as to what he was going to be doing at the age of 40. Damn sure wasn’t bodybuilding. I mean, Phil, in some ways, do you think in 2020 that there were members in the audience that had more respect for what you did then than, say, the win in 2016 or 2015, because you saw a man come back, put himself on the line, knowing that nothing was guaranteed on that stage, knowing that you’d be criticized and under the microscope.

9:23 I mean, I know if I’d been in the audience, I probably would have given you more respect for that. I had Iced Tea, the wrapper on before, and he said, “Brian, it’s not about the come up. It’s about the comeback.” That’s when we see what you’re made of. Anybody can string together some wins, but can you come back from a hard time?

9:40 So did you feel that there was, maybe, a different level of respect from people, online? For sure. While up on stage, I wasn’t quite sure how to process that. I think it was for me. It was more of an attitude check, because I had to exude a certain level of professionalism, and I wanted to shock everybody of letting them know that, don’t worry, I’m okay.

10:02 Because I didn’t do this show specifically just to win. This was more of a moral victory for me to prove that I went through more adversity than probably 99 of the guys in the world. Did that compete having that microscope that you speak of, being expected to always win not peak. For gosh, I mean, once in my entire career and actually stand up there and be like, yeah, I did this, and you’re right, I did put my title on the line. I put my legacy on the line, but I think that’s what champions do.

10:35 They don’t, they don’t always. I mean, we criticize people that pick their fights all the time. For me it was like, no, I’m gonna do this because I want to see what I’m made of, because I just might win, but I just might win in a different way of knowing who I am as a human being, and that was the biggest takeaway. So I feel like the fans did see their person, that maybe they loved or hated at one point, have a certain level of I don’t say humility, but like, he’s vulnerable.

11:10 He can lose, but he can be happy, he can be okay, and I think that from my direct messages that I receive on social media, to the emails through people I meet, they were inspired by knowing that, wow, like you did this for us. You didn’t have to come back. Your legacy was already solidified, but I do understand where you’re coming from, because in 2015, 2016, people are just so used to you winning they want to see somebody else, so they may, you know, not be as impressed, or you know, they’re just like, whatever.

11:44 But this, that 2020 will always be a defining moment in my career and in my life. I know you watch yourself back on stage and you’re hyper of yourself on stage, which I know a lot of people would be surprised, but when I heard you talk about that, I’m like, that’s the mindset of a champion, because that’s when all of your work it comes down to those few moments on stage. I know you compared this one time to an Olympian. It trains four years for a 100-meter dash.

12:13 And so you look at your body language. I know you one time said you could see that you kind of exhaled when you got the result, one time, as a relief, but that’s not what a champion should do. When you watched yourself on 2020, did it feel like it exuded a different energy, that energy of kind of gratitude, that guys, I’m okay and I’m here and I wanted to win. I still want to win, but I’m also, I’m okay with this process. Yeah, I mean, I definitely had mixed emotions that Saturday evening.

12:42 I knew that the likelihood of me winning was pretty slim, because I also see the body language of judges, because I can see them in the audience, and they don’t have the greatest poker faces, let me tell you. And you know, I just, I just felt it. I mean, the fact that I’ve been able to feel what it was taking to come up in the ranks and actually then win for seven straight years. You see everybody else’s mannerisms, so for me it was just the biggest attitude check of my career.

13:14 I needed people to understand that I’m okay, and if this is the last time you see me, I want you to understand that I took this like a man, that I wasn’t upset, that I wasn’t about bitterness. I was all about gratitude and just being happy that I was up there, and to be quite honest, it was the first time I was able to you have to think, I was on stage with Dexter Jackson, who won the Olympia ’08, who I was on stage with when he won that title. Brandon Curry, who I’ve, you know, seen come up.

13:50 We turned pro around the same time. I wasn’t on stage when he won in 2019, but then you got to see another person, Ramy, Big Ramy, being able to win. You know, he’s always been like my biggest fan, and just to be able to have that moment and share that with, I mean, we have four Mr. Olympias on one stage. That’s pretty cool, so that’s a memory that I get to walk away with instead of being like, oh man, I you know, f this, I lost this man. It’s like, yes, do I have those moments?

14:20 Yes. But I switched it very quickly and just said, look, man, like, this is a moment that, like, in 20 years, people are gonna maybe, maybe do a documentary about this and talk about the time where there were four kings on the Olympia stage during a pandemic, when everybody was against adversity, and we got to see a new champion crowned. So that was for me, like, that was my storyline. That was how I view it. I still view it that way, like, how cool it was.

14:47 I’ll be honest, I did tell Ramy some jewels of wisdom, and basically I grabbed him, hugged him, told him I love him, and but you got to be better, because you just never know if I may come back. And that was just a push that would be like Michael Jordan telling Kobe, you know, like you got to be better, man. I expect better than you because of the fact that you won the contest. That’s not where it ends. That’s where it begins.

15:14 Yeah, well, I was gonna wait till later, but I mean, the next Olympia is just over three months are you coming back? Those questions are definitely still circulating, even in my house. But as of right now, I’m completely undecided. I’d be more leaning toward not. Right now I’ve got some other things on the burner that are of great importance, but like I said, you just never know.

15:40 I’ve been in shape throughout this year, and, you know, I’ve been getting a lot of interest from other people, you know, like, you know, what’s Phil’s next move as far as competitive stage? You know, I haven’t retired, so I’ll just say that and I’m proving to myself that I can be multifaceted and doing other things, and that was something that I respected with Arnold, because when he did his sixth Olympia, I believe that was around the time when Pumping Iron was created. He then left, and he had explained, I will always be a bodybuilder, but there’s some other things that he wanted to try and those things were acting and such, but then he was able to come back, and I believe in 1980, and then win so, you know, I think I’m allowed the same opportunity, and, you know, I just don’t want to automatically revert to say, I’m doing this because there’s other things that I also have on my plate that I would like to experience, especially at 41 years old.

16:35 I mean, you know, this is, this is beginning to be like a 35 to 45 year-old sport. Before it was like a young man’s game. Now it’s like, you can, I mean, Dexter Jackson compete at 51 years old, still was, like, I believe top 10. So you just never know. So I know that was a long-winded answer, but like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna keep everybody guessing, and you know, but I will definitely if I were to do it, they’ll know pretty soon.

17:02 Yeah, it’s a good answer. You mentioned Michael Jordan. When you watch that documentary, The Last Dance. What do you see? Because I think you might see something different than other people would see.

17:16 A lot of people were shocked that he still held grudges with members of the Pistons. They were shocked that he was still angry about a foul or a thing. But then other people I spoke to said, no, that’s the championship mindset that maybe not everybody shows on their Instagram feed, but we saw that realness with Michael. What did you see that maybe we didn’t see? Well, I saw a person who was unapologetic about his success when he literally said, if you don’t want to play that way, don’t play that way.

17:49 That’s the type of vulnerability that I don’t think people understand. Is that, like, he was able to show so much vulnerability of explaining how much winning meant to him, that he literally had to take his earpiece out and walk away, because it was a very emotional part for him. I felt those same things where trying to figure out why you do what you do. You had mentioned earlier about when it was in 2010, Jay Cutler and I were competing, they announced me second, or announced him first, therefore I was second, and I exhaled.

18:26 I realized very quickly that I wasn’t emotionally fit to be a champion, and if I really want to be one, I have to exude it in everything I do, and I have to be unapologetic. I have to demand more from others that help that want to be a part of this team: chiropractor, trainer, you know, girlfriend, whatever it is, because I have a mission and I’m not going to let anyone eff that up. So from Jordan, from watching that Last Dance, I applaud him because he did deal with a lot of criticism.

19:02 I mean, to me he’s the GOAT. I think a lot of people would agree, but it wasn’t always like that. I mean, I’m 41, so I mean, I watched him from ’84 on and he was always criticized in the media. He shoots too much. He shoots way too much.

19:19 He doesn’t pass enough. He doesn’t make his teammates better, all these other things. But, you know, I got to see the evolution of his game and his mindset, and being able to watch The Last Dance, I mean, I probably watched that through and through, close to 10 times, you know, be, I mean, episodes one through ten, you know, like at least 10 times, and it’s because of the fact that I only, I’ll be honest, I truly respect those people who have gone through it and expect greatness out of themselves, and therefore they want it for, and he wanted it for everyone else.

19:59 He just had a different way of speaking about it. So for me, I’m like, God bless him, man. Like, I would have loved to been on that team. I would have loved to have someone, you know, push me like that, because I would have stood there and said, this is the guy that’s going to take me to the Promised Land. I just got to play my role, and I better show up every freaking day like a beast, because if God forbid something happens to him, I gotta show up and be that lion.

20:26 So, you know, like I said, in you know, that documentary, just, it was, it was incredible. Like his mindset, his ability to know, like, Scottie Pippen’s injured, and I gotta go take this, I gotta take this game over. I don’t like it, and that was the cool part. He said, I don’t like it, but it’s what has to be done. And I think of that’s being real.

20:49 There’s a lot of leg workouts that I don’t like. There’s a lot of meals and cardio that I don’t like, even some appearances I may not want to do, but I got to do it. That’s what being a professional is at the highest level, and you do it with a smile on your face, because you are still in gratitude. You just know that they give them only. God damn it, it would be nice to have a little bit of help, but you know what?

21:12 I got this. I know who the hell I am. I can make this happen. How powerful is that guy? Yeah, it’s powerful I mean, that moment you’re talking about was the best moment of the series.

21:21 It’s when he almost, he gets so emotional because, like you said, he said, if you’re not prepared to play the level at that game, then don’t. And you know, I’ve had a couple mentors over the years, Phil, and they demand the most from me, and even when I do something incredible, they say, you could be a thousand times better. And people look at them and they say, oh, they’re mean, they’re nasty, they’re demanding. They don’t understand what life is about, but the way Jordan does and the way some of my mentors do for them, it’s the essence of being human.

21:55 It’s the ultimate gratitude, by being the best you can be at something, even if it seems obsessive, but it’s almost honoring this life we were given on this planet. And so when I hear Michael talk about it, he’s like, it’s my duty to be the greatest possible, and it’s your duty too if you want to be anywhere near me. And I don’t apologize for that, and that is maybe the essence of what it means to be human. That’s the way I see it. But I know a lot of people who maybe have never been around someone like that, or haven’t pushed themselves to those high performance levels, and we’ll look at that and just say, he’s obsessed and he clearly doesn’t have his priorities down and I’m sure they said things like that about you, but he was 100.

22:33 No, that’s what The Gift actually means. My nickname. That means it’s not just a gift from God that I got these talents. It’s able to figure out what your niche is in life and run with it. Run like hell with it.

22:45 Be passionate about it, know that the negative noise will come, but if you can stay focused and just put everything into it and be obsessed. You should be obsessed with that gift. Picasso should be obsessed with his gift, right? Michael Jordan, you saying both Michael Phelps, slap in the water, he was obsessed. You knew he was possessed, but what did he do with it?

23:13 Did some incredible stuff with it. I think if everybody figured out what they’re great at, I don’t care what it is, and really gave a damn about their success every single day, we’d see some triumphant moments, especially during this time during pre-COVID, post-COVID, whatever you want to call it. That there would be some amazing documentaries. You know, I’m expecting to see some really huge triumphant moments in our human existence, because there are those people out there and they have the ability, they just need to maybe hear it from someone like myself or the exchange that we’re having, to know that they’re not alone.

23:52 But you got to start. You got to start using that gift. You got to give a damn about it. You can’t just talk about it. You got to put foot the ass foot to that ass and go, and you have to do it honestly.

24:03 You got to do it on your worst day. That’s the craziest part. If I were to ask 10 adults, 10 guys, you guys want to go train chest and arms? They’d say, hell yeah, let’s go kill it. If I say you want to go train legs, maybe half of them show up, and out of that half of the ten, the five that show up, two of them are really already checked out.

24:29 One’s kind of like teeter-tottering, and the other two are like, let’s do this. So those are the people that, you know, we are, and, like, we really have to hone in on, like I said, why do we do what we do? What do we really want? It’s okay to be passionate. You’re passionate about your family.

24:45 You’re obsessed about your family, right? You’re obsessed about certain things because they mean something. It’s not a bad thing. It’s to me, it’s not bad as long as you’re not hurting someone, you know, putting someone down, demotivating someone, not fanning those people’s flames, extinguishing their flames with negativity and BS. I think you’re doing okay you know, and I think that’s what we need to focus on.

25:09 There we need innovation. We need people to be innovative. We need people to be inspired. We need the people that to care, and that’s why I many nights that I would be in the gym by myself after midnight. I didn’t have any spotters.

25:27 I got in there with the intention of knowing that if I can do this with no entourage, and everyone else has one, I won. If I can get in there three times a day and train smarter and harder, I won. I put myself in a different position dealing with life. I didn’t become a victim of my own circumstances. Had my dad died, not a night of when I was doing a guest appearance in Cleveland, Ohio, I did the appearance.

26:01 I also did a VIP meet and greet with 100 people waiting in a restaurant. They didn’t even know, but that’s what professionals do. That’s what you do, and you’re not, like, you didn’t see me post it up on Facebook. Why? Because that’s what average people do.

26:15 Everybody goes through these things, but what standard do you hold yourself to? If I hold myself to a higher standard, then that means that I’m not going to walk around like, oh man, what was me. That’s a little vibrational BS that we cannot have. Because you also don’t know who else is watching. It could be you, but also could be the next you, and they don’t need to see that.

26:38 They need to see strength. They need to see positivity. They need to see vulnerability as well. They need to know, like, yeah, you know, I, yeah, dad died this night. I knew that was coming.

26:46 It was it sucked. He died at 65. You know, I felt cheated, this and that, but yeah, I mean, but I see him every day and here and here, I’m good. I’ll be all right. Ain’t none of us gonna cheat death, you know, so it is what it is, but what’s the inspiration that you can provide to someone else that may be going through the same thing?

27:03 Can’t do it when you’re so, you know, you can’t. It’s not inspirational if someone asks, what’s it like to be Mr. Olympia? So much dieting, so much this, so much that. Why would someone even want to do it? We’re not getting paid millions of dollars like NBA players.

27:19 We do it because we freaking love it. So I always remind guys, even on tour, like, when you say you do this, you better know why you’re doing this, because I’ll be damned if this sport dies because you’re, you know, that no, you do it because you love it, and if you don’t, there’s plenty of other things you, I’m sure you’re going to be great at. And that’s just how I live my life. Yeah, I think the definition of a professional is someone who makes it look easy.

27:45 That’s what I always aspire to, and I always tell my team, like, you met, they make it look easy to where you fool everybody to thinking it is easy, but then the other pros, no, it’s not, and they’re looking at you like, okay, I know that’s like the tip of the iceberg, right? There’s 90-some percent under the water that they don’t see, and it’s like, you, they see you once a year, Mr. Olympia, bam, bam, bam, oh, the big smile looks amazing, and then they just assume the rest of the year is fraught with some workouts and some dieting. They don’t see, right?

28:15 They don’t see all the stuff. I mean, you travel like crazy, the injuries, you push through the ups, the downs, that all the madness going on behind the scenes. You keep that to yourself, and you kind of swallow it down, right? And that’s what makes you ultimately worthy of being the champion and a professional. No, I mean, there and there was no room for it during those segments of time.

28:42 Okay, Phil, you’re dealing with a passing of a loved one, a business that may be failing, you got divorced. What do you want to do? You have a choice. You want to sulk? We want to get back to work.

29:04 And then when you’re done working out, then you can kind of deal with this other stuff, but if that becomes so much of a distraction to your goal, I don’t know if you really, really signed up for it. You might have signed up for it in pencil. Yeah, I signed up for it in blood. There’s a difference. And if I do that, that means that hella high water, I’m getting it done because I have to assume, look, I was told this by a coach.

29:38 Gosh, I must have been like eight, nine years old, and he said, you know, if someone told you 80 of your life would be pretty darn good, wouldn’t you be happy about that? We’re all like, yeah, we’re all kids that can’t, yeah, of course. 80. Yeah. He goes, then why do you allow 20 of your bad days look like they’re 80?

29:59 And he’s trying to get our mind at that early age. We’re trying to. He’s like planting seeds. So he’s basically saying, like, majority of your life is going to be pretty freaking awesome. You’re going to have some crap, though.

30:13 You are, but overall, 80 is probably going to be bliss. This is going to be okay. It’s going to be all right. 20 percent of it is going to be like f’ed up, you know, but that’s also an experience, and I’m dealing with human experience every day. You know, I’m not exempt from my business is getting their ass beat and covid and stuff.

30:42 I do traveling every weekend so to have my books white clean destroyed, that killed me, but I had to pivot. I could have been like this, or I could say, you know what, let’s figure something out. That’s what you do. You don’t give up. You have to assume that there’s going to be an adversary, an enemy.

31:07 Some something, if you don’t, like you’re living in a fairy tale. You have to assume, if especially for people that watch like or read comics, watch certain, you know, DC or Marvel movies, they always have an antagonist, they always have some level of adversity, you know, someone, you’re going to get your butt whipped, but then they come back, and like you said about Iced Tea, it’s about the comeback, man. Yeah, those Rocky movies that we watched as kids, you know, as adults, like we’re like, you can still watch it today and still get happy, because you’re like, you already know the ending but like you just want to see, you want to feel it, and I think every day we have that opportunity to figure out what drives us, change our habits, acknowledge our losses as lessons, and have the courage, got to have the courage to get back up and get after it again.

32:02 Yeah, I think it’s that Joseph Campbell hero’s journey that I think it’s part of human DNA, you know. We connect to the hero’s journey, because we want to see the comeback. Like Iced Tea said, to come up, it’s not as interesting. The comeback is something we can all relate to. We’ve all been there.

32:16 It’s the cycle of life. But framing it that way is so important, you know, especially for the kids. And you know, it reminded me of another line in that, in the series The Last Dance, with Dennis Rodman was in the locker room and he said, they don’t pay me to play basketball. He said that’s easy. He said they pay me for all the stuff that happens outside of the court.

32:35 That’s why they paid me, right? all the distractions, all the dramas, all the problems, and you could see him fighting his demons, and at that level, your demons come to see you, right? Phil, and I’m sure they came to see you. You don’t have to make an appointment when you’re up there on the stage at the highest level. They come find you, right?

32:52 Like in The Matrix, and so it is like a Marvel comic. As a matter of fact, if you’re not seeing those, you’re probably not being who you should be. You’re probably not really going for it, because you got to fight those things every day, and then even you, when you get off stage, you get them in all sorts of other ways. And I think you even once said you said, if you want something you never had before, you got to be willing to do something you’ve never done before.

33:17 So it sounds like you’re still in that learning mindset, that growth mindset, where you’re like, okay, this is a new problem I guess I got to figure this out. It’s more armor. It’s more armor that you get to take with you to battle. So I could be as corny as to talk about, like, a, you know, like an old Nintendo game with freaking Legend of Zelda. The first thing you start off with is just a wooden freaking sword, a wooden sword after a while you get ones that are made out of different materials.

33:50 Next, do you know, you got one that shoots fire and all those other lasers and stuff, but you started off with nothing. You had to know what it felt like to have nothing, and you build, you build, but you earn, you build, you earn, you build, and then once you get all this armor, you still gotta, you gotta slay that dragon at the end of the game. You’re like, man, but I, but I did all this other cool stuff. Yeah, but now you gotta use it. So all these lessons in life, all these Y’s in the road, and all these things, you started developing armor for the next battle.

34:28 And what people don’t realize is that they’re, they’ve, they already have the armor. They just haven’t recognized it and want to use it, when the people who use it, they’re the ones that are having books written about them, monuments built. Those are the ones. I was never the person that wanted to just beat the game. I wanted to get the highest score, and that’s why I’m still eager to learn new things.

34:57 And it doesn’t mean that I don’t get knocked down. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have my own habits that need to be corrected, but that’s the beauty of it, is that I have an opportunity. I have a choice, but I know that even leading into, you know, this next phase of my life. I say I’m on the back nine of the golf course. Ever since I turned 40, I was like, I’m on the back nine now, right?

35:22 I get to take every thing I’ve learned throughout those first 40 into the next 40 plus. I think I’m gonna be all right, because I’ve experienced quite a bit of stuff and it has nothing to do. I’m not comparing myself to anyone else, but I’m saying, for me, something bad happens in business, I should know better. Something that happens in bodybuilding, I should know better. Something happens in a relationship, I should know better.

35:47 I have the armor so I can go to war with anything. It’s just having, I’ve learned this even with my fiancé. You know, she’s said, you already have it you have the, it, you’re just not using that right now. You’re being a little vibrational. You’re not, do like, you’re being a puss.

36:12 She’s Italian. She can talk crazy to me and stuff, but, but seriously, but sometimes you know you’re like man, like, I just want to break. I want to break from the noise. I want to break from the lives. No you don’t.

36:26 No, you don’t. You want to go back. You want to go back when you, you know, graduating college had no money, had no nothing, nothing. No, you don’t want that. You’re just, you’re just a little, you may be fatigued but you got to switch it, and you got to switch your mindset first, and you got to maybe then show some gratitude and say, I’ve experienced quite a bit of stuff.

36:51 I’ve earned a lot. I’m thankful why not go further? I’m not finished. Get up, move, smile. You can cry later.

37:04 You can cry in the car, you know what I mean? Like, you can do that too, but you’ve got to move. You can’t just sit here, because the world will keep spinning on this axis, and you know what’s crappy is that when you don’t move and you stay stagnant, you watch other people improve, and then you become a bitter ass piece of crap, hater, hater, saying oh, must be nice, oh, he’s got the nice suit, he’s got the nice car, got the house, got the wife, must be nice.

37:35 You become that punk. Why are you worried about them? You have every opportunity to get that too, if that’s what you want. You’re just too scared, or you’re too tired. Well, we talk about Elon Musk all the time, like that man.

37:49 Don’t sleep if you want it bad enough. You won’t. I average four hours of sleep during those Olympia runs it would if they say, oh, you got bags in your eyes. I earned them. You got injured?

38:03 I earned that too. Battle scars. Yes, because I’ve been the war, and I think that’s what some people are afraid to do. You’re gonna get hit. You’re gonna get beat down.

38:15 You’re gonna have a scar. You’re gonna, it’s gonna it has to happen, but it also tells a story, tells a story about how you, you know, created some triumphant moments for yourself, how you develop some more self-esteem, some self-confidence, some self-awareness, so that now, like, you can help somebody else, because that’s what the true gift is in life, is to be able to take your own personal experiences and be able to share them with other people who you may not even come in contact with. Yeah, and God willing that they actually take it and they run like hell with it too.

38:49 How about that? If we could actually do stuff like that for other people. That’s what social media was supposed to be, right? Yeah, instead of all the negative crap, we could inspire other people. So that’s really how my mind, especially right now in 2021, works some big lessons there.

39:04 You know, it took me 40 years to figure out that the reason I was here is to be of service. My young punk mind didn’t get that. I thought it was all about me, and I got paid well for that mindset in depression, addiction, and loneliness, and then when I finally figured it out, the game, I thought, oh wow, the more you give, the more you get. And so that’s such a crucial point, and also what you said find your niche and be the best at it. I mean, Phil, imagine if you walked out on the street and you had the best bus driver in the world, the best barista, you know, the best policeman, the best bodybuilder, the best a broadcaster.

39:37 Imagine if everybody was like 100x their game. This world would, it would literally, we wouldn’t even be able to recognize it. And so imagine if we could empower people to do that, and like you said, that’s what social media was built for. You said a lot of times we want to break from the noise, and I like how you said that but you think you want a break from the noise, but what you need is, you need maybe to take a breath and then you need to go back, actually, deeper into the noise, because we all think we need a break, but like you said, it’s actually not what you want, because then you check out, the world goes by, you become the bitter one what you have to do is you got to double and triple down on that noise and get back in there, and like you said, take those hits, build that armor, and sometimes you need someone like you to remind you of that, because the rest of the world’s telling you to take a break, enjoy being the victim.

40:25 That’s a big thing these days but you know, that’s the worst. Yeah, no, it’s being sold every moment. I know that’s why they need about, say, grumpy old men like us talking about it. You’re not that old. Let’s talk about social media, because it’s interesting, because when you started back in 2011, I mean, Instagram didn’t exist at that point.

40:45 You know, there wasn’t that much social, and then you grew up in the social era, and I know you don’t call them haters. You call them lovers, because they’re obviously interested in you, and I love that vibration. I had Grant Cardone on my show and he’s a big real estate investor, and he said, Brian, he said, hate is the same energy as love. It’s just when they transmit it, it just gets a little funny on the way in, but it’s still ultimately love. It might feel like hates you, but they clearly are paying attention to you.

41:11 Maybe they want something you want, maybe they want to be like you, maybe you inspire them, but the message gets a little messed up in transition, and it looks like hate but you know, you saw social media come up, and you know, I just spent the last nine months running to be the next mayor of London, and it got intense. There was like 100 pieces of media. I was on every newspaper, every television station. They came after me, Phil. I was the ex-banker, break dancing, urine drinking, a former heroin overdose guy.

41:37 It was brutal, the way they came at me, but that’s just part of the game, right? And I was wondering, how have you learned that, and what lessons can you give to other people, because they might not be as big as you, and they see 4 million followers on Instagram. They don’t realize that sometimes the majority of those people that aren’t so nice how do you process or understand the social media phenomenon, and then how do you try to educate the younger people about it, because for them, their digital presence is almost their own presence, and that’s kind of a weird and scary thing.

42:08 Yeah, I never thought that my digital presence would be my identity. You know, I come from a generation of bodybuilders that you knew about us through websites, but most importantly, magazines. Once those went away, that was like, well, how are they going to know who I am? Like, what’s going on? And we were in this space where none of us got it right.

42:34 None of us had PR companies come in and try to coach us on what to say, what to tweet, what not to say, and we didn’t get the permission to be ourselves. We never truly got the permission. There was no person that said, here’s Instagram. There’s a platform to do this, this, and this. Be yourself and we will love you for who you are, no matter what it is.

42:57 No, you start, you started seeing a lot of people take advantage of one another, people being disingenuous, non-stop photoshopping images of themselves, showing a very showing that victory as if that’s their everyday life, basically lying their asses off just to get likes, and we see it still. I won’t say I handled social media very well initially, because I didn’t understand why someone would hate on my craft, and I look at myself as an artist so it’s like I’m painting this picture using my physique. This is my art.

43:32 This is my physical art. You have something bad to say about it. It’s like going up to a famous chef and telling that a soup sucks. It’s like, are you serious? Like, I spent years in culinary arts, and this and that.

43:43 What do you know? Why not just sauce, maybe I just want to piss them off for the day, and that’s something for me. I had to recognize, like, damn, if this was basketball, I could hit a shot and look back at him and wink. This is from someone that’s an egg so you can get trapped into that very quickly. So I got bitter about it, and for a little while, because I use, like, that mentality of, well, if you’re going to come at me, I can come at you back, and I just thought it was like a friendly banter, like, if basketball players, in my opinion, are the greatest trash talkers around, being a former one, I wanted to fire back.

44:21 I wouldn’t call people fat and ugly and stuff like that, but what I would, you know, I just make a little crack back. That stuff turned into a hell storm for me online, and it was like, you’re the fan, you get to talk trash about everybody else that is clearly better than you, and then when they clap back at you, you get to be the victim now. Ah, I get it. So I’m held at this height the highest standard, and you are proving to me that you’re not even close to that standard not just Mr. Olympia.

44:54 We’re just talking about a human being, because if you held yourself to a certain standard, you wouldn’t talk to people this way. You would have some level of respect, and in fact, you would actually take that moment and ask a question. How did you get there? Tell me something that I haven’t read about you in the magazine, and it’s because it goes back to what we’re just talking about a few minutes ago. They’re really just scared to find out their own habits, so they’d rather direct their bitterness, frustration, to someone who is doing it at a very high level.

45:31 And yeah, I didn’t like it at all. I felt like I could connect, like, what I’m doing right here. I’ve always been this person, and winning doesn’t help because winning blinds people to, you know, they, you only become humanized after you fall not when you’re on top. They look at you something different. I’m still seven times Olympia.

45:55 I’m still on that mountain. I’m starting Mount Rushmore. Bodybuilders, no question about it. I know that, but it’s through losing, and maybe it’s because maybe they’re losing I don’t know. I have no idea.

46:08 But for the young kids, it’s very interesting, because are you really making an impact on the world with what you post, or are you just goofing around? I see a lot of goofing around. It’s very interesting, especially in health and fitness. I mean, you people are being, I can tell you a hundred percent that there’s a lot of people that they follow that are very disingenuous of what they’re doing because they’re selling product. To me, do I sell product?

46:38 Yes. But I’m selling something different, and it’s the vulnerability of knowing, like, hey, I put my name on something because I believe in it, because I went through it. The pride is the proof. It’s always going to be in the performance. I do have that social proof, because I have been, you know, where I’m at, but I’m also able to talk to the common person and say, look, man, like, I can analyze what you’re going through and actually provide you some little nuggets of where I was at, where I was in that liner road, and what I chose, and I’m encouraging you to do the same.

47:06 So with social media, you have to understand that not everybody’s going to understand you. I used to wear a hat that said Misunderstood on it, because I felt that, and then I embraced it, and people got mad at that. I’m like, I got it. You’re upset because you haven’t accepted the truth, which is people will not understand you people will not like you. I could post up something online, and people talk trash about it.

47:34 That’s them, and I had to learn that it really had more to do with them than me, and the cool part was that the bullies the bullies on there, they actually know how you, the bullies know your potential more than you. Explain that. Okay, when you’re a kid and someone wanted to bully you about your shoes and stuff like that, talk trash about certain things. Why are they bullying you? Why are they bullying the kid that sits in front of the class and raises their hand and actually answers the questions correctly?

48:13 I mean, if anything, that kid’s a good student. Oh, goody two shoes, going, you know, kiss ass, the snap, so you’d rather have him be in the back with the other dummies, the other ones that don’t want to actually succeed. I think you just don’t want to, you’re afraid to compete with that person that’s sitting in the front, and that’s why you want to pull them back, because you know that person is a 4.0 GPA student, and you’re too chicken, and you’re satisfied with being a 2.0, because maybe your parents don’t care, maybe your brothers don’t care, maybe you, you know, you don’t have that level of influence, maybe you just given up on yourself.

48:54 I don’t know your life story, but your bullies are, because I was one of those kids Phil’s being a kid, says this, than the other. It’s like, I’m just doing what I’m told by the freaking teacher. I’m going to school to learn. I’m not going to school to hang out. I can hang out after school.

49:09 I cannot go going, you go to work to go get paid, right? So you go to work, like, you work If I’m the leading executive, I’m the leading sales guy, so I’m like, oh man, like, you know, Phil’s over here hitting quotas and stuff, making us look bad. That’s your freaking problem. I got a family to feed, and so for me I realized at an early age is that those bullies are just trying to pull you back, because they’re too freaking scared they’re the wuss, because if they really gave a damn, they wouldn’t be worried about you.

49:42 If anything, they compete with you and say, no, I’m better than you. I’m going to be a better speller. Now I’m going to read better than him, I’m going to do better than her, or whatever you want to call it. But no, let’s just go talk trash to develop a negative noise, so then they start doing what I’m doubting myself. Now my grades start slipping.

50:03 Now I start changing my habits. I went from 4.0 GPA student to 3.5, 3.2. What changed my attitude? What changed is because I allowed their negative, distorted image of me to redefine who I am as a human being. I forgot who the hell I was.

50:26 So it’s easy to allow a bully online to, if you read nothing but, like, you get, you know, you running for office, if you really let that penetrate, you start being like, man, it’s not even worth it. I’m just not cut for this. They found me out. I’m a loser. I’m a this.

50:48 You’ll start really thinking like how they’re just screwing with you. But if you say, well, I did make this mistake, I did do this, I own my, I owe my flaws, and I also own my wins. Now, what can they do? And I don’t give them that power. So I tell people, listen to your bully.

51:08 Sometimes, listen. Sometimes, listen to those haters, sometimes especially the bullies, because they may be telling you the opposite. Yeah, and maybe helping you build some of that armor as well, right? You kind of have to, at least somewhat engage with them, know what they’re doing, but also see it for what it is. And you’re right, when I was running for office, I told everyone, I said, I can’t, I can’t hear the hate.

51:32 I can’t hear it, because if I hear it, I might think, why am I bothering putting everything on hold to try to run this city and take a pay cut and all this stuff, because it might infect my purpose. And I was like, my purpose is to do the right thing, and I really believe in this. I love this city, so I’m just going to do this, but if I engage with it every single day, it could chip you away. At the same time, like you said, you can learn from them. What are they actually saying?

51:56 You know, why are they trying to pull you down? And what can you learn from it as well? And one thing I heard, a quote one time, is that your enemies see your mistakes before your friends do, and it’s interesting, so maybe you can use them and have an early warning system of something you maybe have to change in your game or changing your mindset, like you said. Why does it bother you when they say goody two shoes? If you had your game on, you’d be like, yep, I’m getting all A’s, and I’m going to do this with my life, so good luck in the back of the class.

52:21 So I guess it can allow you to notice you have to develop that mental frame a little better, so you kind of dance with some of the haters online? Is that what you do? Not anymore. I haven’t done that probably like six, seven years, but I mean like, initially, oh yeah, I got a kick out of it. I was like, well, I’m just gonna go back and forth, and I got a good laugh out of it, but then I realized, like, they weren’t expecting the clap back.

52:51 Yeah, they were really, they really loved me right? They didn’t hate me. They just maybe wanted some attention, and I gave him the wrong type, and then I realized like, oh man, this guy, he didn’t really want the smoke. He just wanted some. He just wanted to be noticed, so what I do now is just be like, well, sorry you feel that way.

53:12 Hope you have a better day, man. God bless, good night. And that’s, and then you just leave them with that, and you know, you would be surprised how many people hit me back and be like, man, I was such an a-hole, you know, talking to you like that. And we’re talking about not little kids. We’re talking about like grown adults saying horrible things, things that like I mean, I’ve had people say some really nasty, you know, from racist stuff to, I mean, like, you know, my, like family stuff, off out of bounds stuff, right?

53:45 And then they’re the ones that have, like, on their handle, religious leader, husband, this, that, the other. So you hit him back and be like, hey man, I think you’re living a lie, brother, and I really want to just show you this, so then you understand like maybe you should just change your bio, bro, because I don’t know if you’re living to that standard, and if you say you are, then you shouldn’t be writing this. And you hit him with that, and that’s more intellectual.

54:11 That’s not dealing with hate. You don’t do it with hate. You do it with awareness and love, and just like, hey man, I maybe this is a moment for you to reflect on. Are you real or you fake? And you don’t have to, you definitely don’t have to write these perfect things in your bio.

54:29 You could leave them blank, but if you’re going to put it there, you better own it. How’s social going to affect the future of bodybuilding, because you know, like you said back when you came up in 2010, ’11, ’12, you were either in the magazine or not. That was like your validation and that was ultimately led to your income streams as well, whereas these days you can jump the gun on that, like you said, through some creativity and storytelling in Photoshop, you can become kind of who you want to be online, which means you also might not put the hard yards in to become what.

55:03 Back in your day, there was one spot, right? I want to be Mr. Olympia. That’s what I want to be, whereas on social there’s a 100,000 spots. How will that change? Will it mean we won’t get best of breed as the next champions?

55:16 Or do you think we still will? I think we’re seeing it already. I think we’re seeing that. Well a couple different angles. So one, I believe that they have too many different divisions in our sport, and some people may disagree, but I come from a different era where there was just one division for men, and that was just open class bodybuilding.

55:39 And, you know, when you add in, like, different categories, yeah, that’s more inclusive. I get that, you know, you got the guys in borchers, you got guys in different trunks, you know? That, with Classic, I appreciate what they do but when you talk about finding out who the best in the world is at something, you want to look at the Mr. Olympia. It’s the person who gets the Sandow trophy. Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman’s, that is what you’re striving for.

56:05 So no discredit to what they’re doing, but we’re, I think the next Phil Heath or Ronnie Coleman or whatever may be doing a different division, because maybe they’re settling for that division because it may be a lot easier for them, and that’s okay. Now, aside from that, I feel like the industry in itself is at a crossroads, where we’re celebrating influencers more than we’re celebrating bodybuilders, and the industry has allowed influencers to have more, the same access as the pro bodybuilder. Meaning, okay, so you have basketball players that play ball overseas, or like the street ball and one mixtape guys, they don’t get the same respect as NBA dudes.

56:57 In fact, they don’t hang out together for that same purpose, because the optics, they’ll be like, oh yeah, they’re the same. No, they’re not. They’re not the same, even without the pay. They’re not the same. So with influencers, they’ve definitely hacked it perfectly, and the bodybuilder right now, in my opinion, is more influencer than competitive bodybuilder, because there’s more money on the influencer side than it is on the competitive side.

57:29 So until the sport, as a whole, generates more revenue for the athlete, the athlete will have no choice but to get the sponsorships through maybe doing a couple shows, but then doing more of the influencer stuff, doing the swipe-ups and everything else, because that’s going to help pay their bills. Now, if the competitions were paying, you know, I mean, you have competitions that already pay like 10, 20 grand, that are small shows that qualify for this show. If there was a way to generate more income for these athletes, I guarantee you, you would see greater physiques, because they could put that money back into their physiques.

58:04 It costs money to eat well. It costs money to have massage therapy. Like, if we talk about the guys like LeBron James, that, what do you spend a half a million dollars on therapies all year? Well, to be a Mr. Olympia, you’re spending quite, you’re spending over a hundred thousand dollars. So if other people are trying to be Mr. Olympia, don’t you think they need to make at least that times three, because you got to pay taxes, and you got it, you know what I mean?

58:28 Like, you got to have this. So if a competition is only paying you like the Olympia pays, 400 to me, it should be a million, million Arnold Classic should be half a million, no question about it. The prize money has not changed since I’ve been pro. It’s 130, 135 grand. To me, that’s bad.

58:46 That’s BS, because those athletes put their, they put the work in, the sponsors make the money. The athletes make very little, so I think the athletes are having no choice but to explore how many sponsorships can I get? And if I happen to do a show, does it really matter how I place? And now those same sponsors realize it doesn’t really matter how he places, or how she places. What matters is the content that we get with that person, the accessibility that we have with that athlete.

59:15 That person, the accessibility that we have with that athlete. So I think, you know, it’s very interesting, because the sport has to you know, I’m not in those conversations. I don’t sit at that table, but I do believe that you need to have certain partnerships, not just a supplement company, or not just, you can’t just have a supplement company a clothing line, an accessory company to run your federation. You got to have like external, like Sony, Samsung, you know, Ford, GM.

59:49 You got to have some heavy hitters. Wouldn’t it make sense if, like, a Mr. Olympia was driving a big F-150? You know, they won that car. I mean, back when Ronnie was winning, they got a car on the Olympia stage. Back in the day, they got, Arnold Classic car was on the stage.

1:00:06 You talk about social media. I mean, get one of these guys, one of these crazy ass lifted trucks. You don’t think a bodybuilder with the muscles and all that stuff would be a great poster child for that? I think there’s a way of doing it, but I just think that the athletes aren’t being taken into consideration, and also the women. I think the women are underpaid, so they have no choice.

1:00:29 I mean, if a girl does a bikini show, she’s only going to pay 2 grand, and her girlfriend over here is doing a Hawaiian Tropic contest at some bar and getting paid 30 grand. What do you think she’s gonna choose? What is the benefit? So I put on bodybuilding shows on the amateur side. I love my industry.

1:00:53 I just want to bring out the best in everyone, but we have to talk about pay. We have to talk about how we can collectively generate more benefits. Yeah, and until that happens, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

1:01:15 Like, if you were to ask the people that paid place outside of the top 10, the top 15 in the world, what their experience is, they may give you some harsh truth. So I think it’s all about figuring out how we can make it better. I want everyone to walk away to say that you’re a pro at something, and you can actually make a living off of that. If I’m a pro golfer, I can still make a great living out of that. You know, you’re pro bodybuilder.

1:01:43 Yeah, I mean, what makes you different than the personal trainer that’s at the gym? So you’re a pro, I get it. You sell the ebook. You have some social proof. I get that, but you ain’t seven times.

1:01:58 So like, if I’m, you know, so if you’re just a pro that hasn’t won anything on a pro stage, you’ve placed top three at a regular show. Are you running a gym? How are you but gosh damn man, like, you can’t even do your craft now because the money is not there. So where’s the motivation I’m just so, that’s, start really for the industry more than anything. Industries kind of step everything up to probably change that path.

1:02:23 You mentioned a few names in there. They just kind of peek my ear. I mean, you mentioned the Mount Rushmore bodybuilders, and I think we’ve had now, with you here, a bunch of those faces on that mountain. We’ve had Lee Haney here. We’ve had Ronnie.

1:02:36 We had Dorian, and you, and there’s one left obviously, which is Arnold. And I know you’ve always had an interesting relationship with Arnold. I know, yeah, you whispered a few things to him when you were, you know, coming up and coming after his seven. And it sounds like he kind of mentored you sometimes in an unspoken way, you know, and that’s sometimes some of the best mentoring, where you know there’s a conversation happening that doesn’t have to be spoken, and right, they’re pushing you, and they’re actually doing the greatest thing they could do by giving you that energy of saying, yeah, go get some, like Michael said, be better, or saying, yeah, okay, go get it, go get it.

1:03:13 What now that you know, now that you’ve been through this whole process, how do you think of Arnold now in the history of the sport, and then also as that mentor to you, spoken or unspoken, maybe you can talk about that, and then also as he continues on with his shows and you know legacy icon the most iconic figure our sport has ever had. You know, getting the nod from him, just be honest, it exceeds Lee Haney, Ronnie Coleman, just us. There’s just something about him.

1:03:48 I love Lee Haney. I think he’s a great human being. Love Ronnie too, but I definitely believe, like, it was up until the point where I was doing a seminar with the Olympia greats at the Arnold Classic. I think it was in 2019, yeah, 2019, and even Franco was still alive, so we had everybody there, and when Arnold gave me, because they were asking if I would compete at the 2019 Olympia, that’s not the other, and he said that, you know, I feel he, that’s, you know, at his best is unbeatable.

1:04:24 I think we know that, and I thought to myself, I don’t give a damn what anyone else has to say now because I got it from him. I got it from him that I’m good. If someone says, hey, Phil, you suck, I’m like, Arnold doesn’t think so. So it’s all good. You know, we have had those, I call it, Sherlock Holmes moments, you know, like the movie, the most recent ones where they’re getting ready to fight, and they have, like, the almost, like, the conversation in their head going back and forth of what they’re gonna do.

1:04:54 It wasn’t more, it wasn’t anything negative. It was more like, I’m shaking his hand, and he’s probably thinking, this punk kid thinks he’s probably better than me. I would have destroyed him on stage. I’m thinking the same thing. It’s because we have that same passion for the sport, but we love competition.

1:05:10 That is something that I’ve always recognized with Arnold. When you meet him, you know, this is a highly competitive person. He would actually talk trash to people to be competitive. He wanted them to be more competitive. He was antagonizing them to bring something out of them, so then he could see how good he really is.

1:05:29 And I love that. A lot of people get that misconstrued with arrogance, cockiness, whatever. It’s like, no, no, no, you don’t get it. A competitive person wants you at your best, because they really want to see what they’re made of, because he’s put in the work, but the things that he’s done outside the sport, oh my gosh, like, it’s something. I mean, there’s a reason why there’s murals painted of him, monuments built.

1:05:56 And I’m very honored and privileged to actually have competed at his shows and actually won one of his shows in Madrid, Spain, back in 2013. To be able to get, I always tell people this when you become a professional bodybuilder, especially open class guy, one thing you want, if you can, is get the handshake, the check, and the trophy from Arnold. If you can get all three, because you can meet them, you can get the handshake and a smile and a selfie or whatever.

1:06:25 You can get that. You can find a way to get that big. Can you get the money and the trophy and all that combined? You get that, man, that’s something that you could take to the grave. And people, you know, may not know bodybuilding.

1:06:38 They may not even know what the Mr. Olympia is. They may still call it the Mr. Universe, for crying out loud. I’m sure you’ve heard people say that. They mix it up all the time like, no, it’s Mr. Olympia. It’s not the Mr. Universe.

1:06:49 But then you say, yeah, I won the Arnold Classic, they’re like, oh wow, like, oh, swordsman, oh my gosh, like, man, you must be really good there, you know? But he is definitely someone who is definitely one of my muses, and I respect that man in a way that even he may not understand. But I will say this. In 2017 Olympia, he appeared. I was at the Arnold Classic.

1:07:17 He came to my booth and I grabbed him right before he left, and I told him that it would be an honor to be tied with him, and I’m doing everything in my power to make that happen, because of what he’s contributed to our sport, and he deserves his roses. Now he looked at me, didn’t even say a word, gave me a hug, and just that look. That is a moment that I will always treasure, because he didn’t have to say anything. We knew what was going on. The best type of mentorship, man.

1:07:50 The best type. 50 years from now, Phil, will we look back at this era of bodybuilding as something that hasn’t been recreated? Will we look back and never see these champions for six, seven, eight years, or do you think we’ll find some type of a new evolution of this sport, like you were, you know, like Ronnie was at the time, like Dorian was the time. Do you think we’ll see it morph into something we can’t even predict? I think the future is very bright.

1:08:22 I do. I just think that there needs to be more conversation, there needs to be more sit-downs with the people who are in charge, with people like myself, because yeah, I’m up here, but I also operate at the ground level, doing appearances, meeting fans, actually having the ability to talk to other competitors, being able to mentor new guys coming up. Who do you think they’re going to run to if a person wins once, they get past three or four Mr. Olympia titles, I would assume at some point my phone will ring, because someone’s going to say, hey man, I’m starting to experience maybe some of this hate that you used to talk about in these interviews, because you know, after my third one, people started, like, getting tired of me, and stuff.

1:09:05 How did you deal with that? Oh, come to my office. But those are those things that I feel like we have to create a certain ecosystem where you have, like, not like board of directors, but you got to have, like, a system where, like, you can have a setup where, okay, physique-wise, I think I do believe it’s going to evolve. My job is to remind people how fun it was for me, how fun it is for me. What opportunities come with it and being honest about it, and pushing promoters in the federation and industry itself to do better for his athletes, because that’s how you’re going to steal or recruit athletes from just holding up the phone, doing TikToks and other things, and getting paid for that.

1:09:59 You want them to compete. You want them to compete more. Let’s figure out ways. So I do believe that there’s a way of also you know, the only way it’s going to evolve is if we make this sport look cooler. And I think it’s, I think we’re, I think we’re actually very close.

1:10:18 We’re closer to what we think. It’s just that we’re all having private conversations. We had like a summit where we actually talked, and we were actually vulnerable, and actually understood one another, and didn’t get upset if someone had something to say that was conflicting thoughts, because of the goal being toward x. We figured that out. I think we could figure out how to make this even better, so that we can recruit guys and girls to not still try to play basketball overseas after they’re done in college or pros, not to try to stay in football past college because maybe they think that they can try out, and you know, whatever.

1:10:57 Maybe we can just say, hey, you’re a collegiate athlete, you got your degree, all this other cool stuff. Great, that’s awesome. Have you ever thought about bodybuilding? No. Well, check this out.

1:11:09 You’re thinking that you want to be an NFL, NBA, and this and that. There’s only x amount of jobs. I mean, we do the math. How many jobs are there every year for graduating class to go into these sports? Very small, and we know the pay could be very small as well.

1:11:25 So if you don’t stack up against that, man, have you ever thought about this? Though, you could travel the world, being in over 100 countries, in a career that’s way more than what I have. More followers than any athlete in the state of Colorado, easily, easily, more than John Elway, more than Chauncey Billups. Those are NBA and Super Bowl-willing people. I do, I’ve traveled more places than them combined, because that’s what the sport is.

1:11:53 It’s worldwide. It ain’t just the states. So I really feel like the sport is expanding in all these different countries and stuff, but we need to really, like, narrow this down and create a good architecture on how people can literally say, well, I told my mom I wanted to be a bodybuilder, and she was all for it. If a kid tells their parents, actually, parents, but tell their kids, you’re gonna be a basketball player, you’re gonna get you’re getting a scholarship because they see the money, they see the fame, the status, the access, the resources.

1:12:23 You say the same thing about being a bodybuilder. Are they gonna have the same reaction? Probably not. We can change that. I think we changed that.

1:12:31 Not only do we change the careers of these athletes, but we actually do something that, I’m sorry, a LeBron James can’t do, and that has changed their eating habits, that is changing their knowledge about the immune system, all these other things, because we do it every freaking day. We have to do it every day. We are just so passionate about the human body that we could actually share that gift with the world too. So I’m so encouraged actually for those next 50 years, and as far as, like, multi-Olympia champions, we’ll just have to see who we’re pulling, like, what gene pool are we grabbing from?

1:13:12 Are we grabbing from track and field? Are we grabbing from, you know, like, personally I don’t see the next 10 years of us having that. I just don’t, just with the current crop of people, but I could be wrong, and I’m going to take a line out of Ronnie Coleman’s book, or his thoughts, and say I would love to see it. I would love to see it, because records are meant to be broken. He would always tell me, he always told me, records are meant to be broken, Phil, so you know you can do it, and I love that about him, because he’s not saying well, this is mine and all mine.

1:13:45 It’s like, no, I would love to see it. So if someone were to get seven, man, I’d love to see it, and I’d like to see how you did it. Yeah, because I probably could learn something from them that I could take with me and create more armor for myself. Yeah, that’s good energy. I’m imagining that typical person that comes up to you when you’re in the airport or you’re traveling, and tell me if I’m wrong.

1:14:07 I’m just guessing here, Phil, but it’s that, it’s that teenage young man who looks at you and their eyes just glaze over. They’ve seen you in the magazines. They’ve seen you in the pictures, and you represent everything to them that maybe they don’t have, and maybe by seeing that physique, something that carnal, something that hits the amygdala, they just think, oh my gosh, if I could just be like you, I can solve all the problems in my life. I could get there.

1:14:32 And I’m guessing you see a lot of those and I’ve seen some of your fan videos, so I know they come up, and I traveled 400 miles just to see you, and I’m curious, what do you tell those young men? And I’m guessing it’s usually young men, because again, it’s great to have role models, and it’s great to look up to those things, but I’m guessing you’re looking at them and saying, you know what, having a great physique is an amazing way to learn discipline, to learn about yourself, to learn about this. But I’m also guessing, knowing you, Phil, that you’re thinking, but also there’s this other level you got to be thinking about.

1:15:04 Is that something that happens to you a lot? First of all, and I’m wondering, what do you usually tell those young man, because a lot of them might be watching us or listening to us right now? I think a lot of them, you know, the younger guys, they’re definitely like, watch your videos, love you, bro, this and that. I want to get into bodybuilding. Okay, why?

1:15:26 And let them talk. And I sit there and listen, or stand there and listen, but I stare at them, because they know I’m passionately present when I ask them this question, because now they can’t be as a seven-time champion, they can’t BS so why are you really trying to do this? And you know, the first question, the first answer will be total BS. Second one, third one, now we’re starting to dig deeper, and they’ll start telling you the truth. And some of them are just like, man, you know, I just want to be great at something, because I was never good at anything, and I was always picked on, or this or that, and I’ve always managed to deal with my own mental health and wellness by going to the gym and being something, making something of myself.

1:16:09 Keeps me out of trouble. It keeps you out of this. Okay, then you roll with that. You know, I told, we have a saying on tours, like, breakups make big great bodybuilders. So you get middle-aged guys that divorce.

1:16:24 It’s not uncommon. Not uncommon. So feel like you went through, like, you know, yes, I did. Now why are you doing it at some point in time it’s gonna have to change too. So they’re, why, he’s gonna have to change.

1:16:37 Just reminding him like, yeah, you know, like, you know, yeah, you’re right. I’ve had people, hell, I’ve had people had a team from South Korea travel to my bodybuilding show in Houston, Texas, one year. They’re like, we have to do the Phil Heath Classic. We just have to do it. So I said, well, I gotta give these guys some, you know, some of my time, because they travel the furthest, and, you know, just visiting with them hearing what they have to say is everything for me.

1:17:06 It also reminds me of the platform that I do have and the responsibility that I have, but overall, you know, you have to look them in the eye and tell them that it didn’t just happen, you know. I didn’t just blink, and this happened. Went through hell, still in it. Still in it, though. You just don’t know it, but if you have the courage to go through it and to just be open to, like, you just got to be open, man, and you know that now I can speak on it, because if I were to speak to a 25-year-old Phil Heath that was getting ready for the Mr. USA competition, I’d tell him, I say, man, be like the book The Alchemist, you know, like, actually see things experience them, experience everything.

1:17:57 Don’t let any, I mean, experience at all, man, and just stop and smell those roses, man. Celebrate even the smallest victories, because there’s going to be some defeats along the way, and if you can do that, you’re like, okay, well, yeah, I lost today, but I’ll win tomorrow. I win tomorrow, you know? You start developing more confidence, because the worst thing I hear from young men is that they lack confidence because of something traumatic that happened, and it, and look, like I’ve heard it all.

1:18:32 I’ve heard it. Oh man. You know, I’ve, and I’ve been home with my stand self. Like, I literally had, like, I’m sitting at the, I think it was 2016, 2017 Olympia, one of those years, and I see a guy standing there and he’s from Make-A-Wish, and he brings over the young man, and I’m hearing a story and stuff, and how my videos helped him to get in the gym and eat better, and this net now he’s, you know, getting through it, and he’s still alive to this day.

1:19:04 I still, to right now, I’m like, how, how like, how did I, you know, I just say, stop thinking about it, just continue to live your life the best way you can, man. People are watching. They’re inspired. Let them have their experience be thankful, show gratitude, but be inspired by them now. And that’s the cool part, is that now I can be inspired by those same fans that traveled 400 miles, you know, to come meet me.

1:19:31 Hell, I’ll tell you a funny one. Back in 2004, Ronnie Coleman had just won, I think it was his seventh Mr. Olympia title, and he had guest post at the NPC Rocky Mountain. I still know it was at East High School, Denver East High School. I had to be there. I was like, I gotta go see Ronnie Coleman.

1:19:51 He wore, like a, like electric blue posing trunks. I still remember this. I waited four and a half hours to get his autograph. I waited four and a half damn hours. I waited two hours during pre-judging, and I was like, man, I gotta go eat.

1:20:06 I’m still a bodybuilder. I’ll catch them at the night show. Then I had to wait two and a half hours, and I got four autographs. And I was just so nervous, and after I got him, I stood there to the side, and I just watched him, and one of my friends, like, dude, you’re being kind of creepy, and I said, I’ll tell you in the car. Just be quiet.

1:20:26 So we finally get in the car, and my friend was like, dude, what was that all about? I said, I needed to understand what a Mr. Olympia does. That man stood there for hours on end, signing autographs, selling merch, which is great money for him. Great. I saw him rack up a lot of money, which is cool.

1:20:44 I was like, man, they actually make money. Like, okay, so I’m still new to this, from, like, the time that he took answering questions, the hands that he shook, the hugs that he gave. I was like, I like that, it’s pretty cool, because I’m always like wanting to give people something, some positivity and stuff, so I was like, man, like, if I ever had the opportunity, I would love that. And I used to get upset because I didn’t have the lines that, you know, Jay Cutler or Dorian Yates, you know, these guys would have, and you know, what my buddies were telling me, like, do in time, Phil.

1:21:15 In time, bro. These guys been doing it for 10, 15, 20 years, man. In time. Now I have it. I’m like holy crap, how can I get through this line?

1:21:24 But I’m grateful for every person, because I know that if I and it also, like, even me telling the story, is like, allows people to know, like, Phil Heath waited four and a half hours for Ronnie Coleman’s autograph. So when you’re being impatient, because you can’t wait for Philly for five minutes, because I’ve had that too, right? Yeah, hey, can I get a picture or something like that? Hey, I’m working out, just wait. Well, how much longer?

1:21:46 Oh my gosh, this guy’s, like, really asking me this. Half an hour, bro, can you just wait? Could you imagine? So you know, you’re trying to be nice, and then half an hour goes by, the person already left. I’m like, guess it didn’t matter.

1:22:00 I guess it didn’t matter to him, and sometimes you take it like that’s an offense to me, and I’m like, no, it just didn’t. Then I realized it just didn’t matter enough to them. Maybe they just wanted it for their Instagram, and that’s the problem I feel like we have, right? It’s like, you just want that moment, but it wasn’t really a moment. It was a fragment of time that you just took a picture just to go brag to friends.

1:22:22 It wasn’t like an interaction. I seek interaction. I would rather, I’ve told people this. Would you rather have a two-second photograph with me, or two-minute conversation? If you pick the picture, man, here, take it, but I’m shaking my head as I say, and I’m like, damn, wow, like, whoa.

1:22:44 Like, I would rather get a two-minute conversation with Warren Buffett than a freaking selfie. You know, the things that I could ask in that period of time, like, so I would get, I would get something from that other than a picture, that if my phone died, or that my Instagram account got wiped out, I would not have that picture anymore, but I’d have the memory. Yeah, so those are the things that, like, I see with fans traveling long distances, and that’s why I do the seminars, and that’s why I’m glad that the United States is opening up, and you know, I get to travel more and do these seminars, because I’m taking the meet and greets with much greater gratitude, and that’s why I’ve been preaching about it so much on social, because I realized I missed everyone.

1:23:28 Yeah, you know, I just miss that connection I don’t like, not, and I felt like it needed to be taken away for me to be like, wow, I missed you guys, man. What’s going on? Like, tell me what’s new. What do you guys want to talk about and be of service, and just be of service, you know, just to have fun, and because no one did that for me when I was coming up. No one really get, you know what I mean?

1:23:53 I didn’t have that, you know, I watched from afar, and we, I also have the magazines, but you know, now it’s like, man, come, come, you want another picture? Like, ask me something. What’s going on? How can I help? And I just love that part.

1:24:07 Yeah, I can tell, man, you got a big smile when you’re talking about it. Yes, yes. Look, a couple final questions, Phil. I always ask my guests this question. What scares you right now in your life, where you are right now?

1:24:19 What’s the thing that scares you the most? Knowing that I was lazy, and I just didn’t go after it, that I didn’t use the attention to detail that I’ve used in bodybuilding to other aspects of my life that I won’t that I’ll run out of time, that I won’t get it quick enough. So those are the things I fear. The decisions that I make that may impact not just my life, but my family in a negative way. So you always want to be right, you know.

1:25:20 Learning not to be fearful of myself, and that means, like, knowing who I am and not being afraid to share it. Not being afraid to make a mistake. Right, you’re not always going to be perfect. When you were doing these interviews, I’m sure maybe your first couple were like, ah, you know, but you still did them Same for me. First couple guest appearances or competitions, yeah not so great, you know.

1:25:49 But I have to be fearless. I have to have less fear of the things that I feel really passionate about, because I can be in my head a lot, and I think sometimes there’s that saying, you know, Tony Robbins say it a lot. It’s like, if you’re in your head, you’re dead, and I think a lot of us get too far in our head. So I’m fearful, like, I get in those moments where I’m trying to figure out every permutation to a problem when the solution is right there, and I just have to decide on this, and it doesn’t take so much risk management, because I’m losing time.

1:26:29 Those are definitely some things I fear, because timing, timing is everything, you know. Too fast, too slow, just right. I mean, you got to nail it. Yeah. So just sadden the laziness, like I knowing that when it comes to daily activities, there is no, I’m in a point in time in my life where there there is, it’s got to be all gas, no brakes.

1:27:01 It’s got to be because of the things that I want, require that attention, so there, if I sense like I’m not active, then I’m, then I’m losing. If I’m not reading something, if I’m not writing an email, if I’m hesitant to do the phone call I’m losing it. It’s like, don’t procrastinate, just get the s*** done right now, and wouldn’t it be cooler if you could rest at 60? Because that’s my goal. Yeah, so it’s like that fear of like not getting that done, and knowing that, like, all the resources that I’ve had, all the networking that I’ve done, the people who I have, my own digital rolodex, and I didn’t maximize all of that for some goals that would help me and help the world.

1:27:51 Like, no, that would be a disservice, not just to myself but my family, my friends, my loved ones, you know, my fans, you know, just the world. Yeah, it’s the world, man. And, Phil, what keeps you awake at night? Like, are you worried about where we’re going as a species on the planet? Obviously we’ve all had kind of a wake-up call, maybe a chance to practice gratitude this past year, but we also got to see maybe the world for more of what it is, and maybe certain people, and we’ve all got reality checks, and there’s a lot of conversations going on out there, digitally and in person.

1:28:26 What keeps me awake, and where do you think we’re headed? What keeps me awake is just who’s coming with me. You know, I look at life like being on a space shuttle. It goes up, and as it goes up past earth, what happens? Pieces fall off by the time it comes back, started with this big machine, now very, very small.

1:28:55 That’s life. So your friends, family, they’re gonna fall off. So for me, what keeps me up is like, who’s who’s gonna fall off, and how am I gonna deal with that? Because that’s life, like your best friend from first grade is not your best friend today. There’s only so many people that are lucky that marry their high school sweetheart.

1:29:19 You may not talk to your best friend from high school or college, but you’re still cool with them, right? And those are things that I have to be okay with. Like, I gotta be okay because they’re living their journey, and I’m living mine. So I have to understand, like, I may have to give up certain things, certain luxuries, to get to certain places. So that’s what keeps me up, is those things.

1:29:39 And, as a society, I just feel like, if we do not learn this lesson right now of gratitude, if we do not learn this lesson of accepting people for their differences, if we do not learn that being a victim is not the key to real happiness and understanding of one another, we are going to eff this whole thing up. We are in a point right now, in my opinion, in my experience, that we can change this world for something amazingly better, or we can eff this whole thing up. There is no in between, in my opinion.

1:30:18 Just because it’ll look like somewhat normal, it’ll be you. If you could fast forward and say, this is what it could be like and what it currently is, you’re gonna look at that and be like, god dang, man, we really effed this thing up, didn’t we? By being hateful, by not being understanding of each other, not having communication, not allowing people to have differences of opinion, but still respecting each other at the same time. You know, I think as a society, as a human race, I think that we don’t deserve to be here if we’re, if we’re just going to live like that.

1:30:49 I think that we need to come together and understand and usually, like the Olympics and stuff like that, do that, but even with that, it’s like drama. Everything’s drama when are we going to wake the hell up and say enough with the drama? Let’s just try to love you know, I didn’t grow up into 70. I was born in ’79, but when they say, love not war, like, man, we get back to loving one another, and that, when we say love, like for real, like you’re my neighbor.

1:31:15 A man hope you’re doing well, dude. You know, I feel like if we really mean that, we’re going to be all right, because then we want the best for each other. It doesn’t mean we still can’t be competitive. I think we have to recognize that competition is healthy. I want the best for you, want the best for me.

1:31:37 Let’s go, let’s go see, because on that given day, you may be better than me, then I have the opportunity to get better. But what are we doing? We’re elevating each other. We’re pushing one another, not tearing each other down. So I just feel like right now, like, we’re in a really, we’re going to have documentaries made about this moment.

1:31:53 These next five years, I mean, are very important in a political sphere worldwide, like with the stuff that you read on social media, this everything. It’s like, to be honest, we cut the cable in our house because of how negative it got. I was like, I’m just going to go online and, like, read, you know, research. I’m going to buy more books, I may watch a little bit of Netflix. Majority of my friends watch Netflix series like crazy during COVID.

1:32:19 I was like, we’re not doing that, because that’s distracting us from getting where we need to go, because there’s that saying, like, you’ve heard it, you probably said it too. We’re gonna find out who really did the work during COVID. We’re gonna find out it’s gonna get exposed, because we’re already seeing, like, who’s, you know, the domestic violence people. We’re already seeing like the people that have the bad habits. We’re also seeing people that have made changes too, so I think it’s just a great opportunity, and I just pray to God like we don’t mess it up.

1:32:49 I really do, because you don’t get moments like this. This is a generational, like, this is a moment. Like, we have the, like, as a world it’s not just the United States, not just England. It’s not just Asia. It’s like the whole freaking world has a chance, and we as a whole should just be like, all right, got my armor on, let’s go, or we’re just gonna point fingers and we got three more pointing back at us, and I hate that.

1:33:15 So for all those people that point fingers at other people, remind yourself that you got three more pointing back at you. That means that you need to do three times the work on yourself before you expect someone else to live up to your standards. Do more work on yourself, and you then your friends will level up, the people around you level up, or they’ll just fall off, like that spaceship we’re talking about. Yeah, because we’re going somewhere. Yeah.

1:33:39 You know, Phil, the wisest guests I’ve ever had on this show all come to the same conclusion you just did. They all say things like, we are all one, and love is the answer, and it could be the hardest, you know, heavyweight champion, it could be a guy who’s a guru from India, or it could be, you know, a young, a young writer, you know, up and coming, but if they’ve seen enough, they usually come to that same conclusion, and I really appreciate you saying that. I think a lot of people need to hear it, and again, start with yourself.

1:34:13 That’s really start with yourself. You know, how can you make the world better today by making yourself better again. Back to what I was saying, imagine if all of us was really owning our niche, we were all 100 times better, we wouldn’t have these problems. So, amazing thoughts. You know, I always finish by asking, if you could pick up the phone and ring that 20-year-old Phil and give that young man some advice, you know?

1:34:37 You know, 21 years of experience over this young man, you know, what would you tell him? What would you tell him? Would he listen? Oh, I talk about two things. One, keep that internship at Amazon in Seattle.

1:34:52 Keep it, keep it. Forgive yourself for anything you may do, because you’re going to make mistakes, but learn to forgive yourself, because once you do that, then you can start healing yourself, but it starts there. And that’s something, as a man I think most, majority of us are taught that you make a mistake, but did you forgive yourself? And lastly, thank yourself. Thank your body, your mind, and your spirit for when you do go through some tough times and you had a moment, thank yourself.

1:35:41 It’s okay to thank yourself. You’re screw what everybody else has to say, thank yourself. My girl would tell me, like, I would be sitting in the office, especially after my second hernia surgery, which was I was away from the gym for six months. Yeah, so you take my anchor away. You know, I can’t even move when I got back in the gym, she said, you know, everything was coming very slowly, and she was like, I know you’re frustrated, but you need to thank yourself.

1:36:11 You need to look in the mirror. Those bandages, those, you earned that. Look at those trophies, you earned that. Those people that look up to you, you you better thank your body right now, and I mean, of course, like, I’m like, oh, you know, and I’m having that moment, and I’m just like, I guess I didn’t think about that. So it’s like, you gotta, you gotta forgive yourself and heal, and when you think you have healed, go further.

1:36:45 Go further. It’s okay. It’s actually okay, and it’s not something that you always have to share with people, but you need to do it so you can look at yourself in the mirror and actually know who the hell you are. And to those 20-year-olds out there in the world that are watching us and listening to us, you know, from all sorts of countries. Final words to them.

1:37:10 You know, they’re gonna probably be a big part of making this thing happen in the next five years and getting us on the right track, or saving humanity, or saving this world. And I agree with you. I do think it’s that urgent, and I feel like we could make it happen, or we could let it slip. What do you tell those 20-year-olds? Keep an open mind.

1:37:33 No matter what challenge, everything don’t just listen to one person’s opinion, not even mine. Challenge it. Embrace conflict, but do it from a good place, because you want to. Here’s a phrase: be intellectually curious. So when you question something, it’s only because you’re curious.

1:38:03 You’re not here to talk down to someone. You’re curious because you want knowledge, and you have not made your mind up yet. You don’t have to, but you want to attain this side, this side, your side. That’s what you gotta do. You can’t just listen to one.

1:38:22 You may not like the other side, but you gotta do it when you’re making some good decisions, and that’s what I’ve had to do. So I think that they, they do that. They got to keep an open mind, man. You got to, and then you got to study those habits, of like, what you listen to, type of friends do you have, what levels of influence are they truly? If they’re just here screwing around, you don’t need to be around them, because you’re gonna, those are the people that are gonna mess this whole thing up.

1:38:55 They’re gonna mess your life up. They’re going to mess our future up, like our retirement, our legacy, they’re going to mess it up. So those 20-year-olds, you got to know, like, you have more power than you ever could imagine. You have a lot of responsibility. That doesn’t mean you have, you take it on by yourself.

1:39:13 It also means that you start looking at some good mentors too. Be okay with that. Seek knowledge from real experts, like qualified people in the field. Numerous people. Like, if you’re a bodybuilder, don’t just hit me up, hit all of us see who responds, then make your own decision.

1:39:35 But you gotta, I mean, you gotta take advantage of social media right now. you got to take advantage of, like, how we’re all kind of connected through email and everything else. You’d be a fool to not try to connect with people and be intellectually curious about what the topic is. Yeah, and then put and put foot to ask, please do the work. Do it when no one’s watching.

1:39:58 Don’t worry if someone’s patting you on the back on Facebook. You don’t always have to post, but do the work. Be happy that you can do the work without someone patting you on the back too. Be okay with that, because I promise you, it ain’t about the first brick it’s about the last one. And then you get to step back and, like, I built that.

1:40:20 You don’t need to be patted on the back for the first few. You need maybe the last one, though, because then you can realize, check this out, I did it, the last stroke. Phil, it’s been an absolute pleasure. This has got to be one of my top best conversations ever. You are wise beyond your years, and I think we’re starting to see some of that armor you built up and those lessons you learned.

1:40:47 I mean, you know, it’s incredible. And especially when I speak to one of one of you top guys in this industry, it’s amazing how much the knowledge of a very specific thing to do with your body seems to transcend this knowledge into so many other areas. And I’m always impressed, and I think most people are always surprised somehow that you could be this fountain of a lot of ideas and truth. And, man, if this is you at 41, you know, man, I can’t wait to 50 or 60.

1:41:18 You’re going to be, you know, you’re going to be an epic person that serves this world and a mentor to millions or billions. So I’m so excited, you know, I didn’t have this kind of mindset that you did at 41. I wasn’t posting about gratitude. I wasn’t posting other people to be careful about their peer group or the music they’re putting in their ears. I wasn’t there yet.

1:41:37 I’m 50 now. It took me a while, and so I just appreciate the fact that you’re doing that, and you’re putting those kind of ideas and posts out there when it’s probably not the most popular thing for people to see on the Mr. Olympia feed. You know, so I just appreciate what you’re doing here. You are very London Real, and yeah, we’re just super grateful for having you here, and hopefully this message gets out to so many people. I know it’s going to resonate, and next time we got to do this in person is what I got to say for sure.

1:42:06 No absolutely, thank you. I appreciate it, Brian. This has been awesome, breath of fresh air just to be able to communicate and share it with the world. So I’m excited for everybody watching and look forward to seeing you in person to be able to shake your hand, man. Yeah, most definitely.

1:42:23 Well, I’ll either make it out to Colorado, or we’ll get you over here at some point. There you go. Because that in-person is a different thing, man. I’ve been telling my team I’m like, get somebody in the studio, man. I need that thing, you know?

1:42:35 It’s slightly different, but, man, we got some great stuff here. These are our incredible lessons. This is exactly what people need right now. And you know what? Just to finish on one thing, you know, at one point, we see that people are flooding to, you know, short-form content and memes and the rage on Twitter, but Phil, we also see that people are consuming these long-form conversations.

1:42:56 They’re going deep, and we’re realizing that people actually, one of my guests said, I think, was Jordan Peterson said people aren’t as stupid as we thought they were. Actually, most people can entertain a very nuanced philosophical conversation and idea with multiple complexities and sometimes incongruencies, if you’re just given the chance, and you know people listening to you here can really take a lot from this, and maybe start being inquisitive, like you said, asking some questions, learning a bit more besides just reacting or saying they’re in a different team. And I’m on team human.

1:43:28 I got all my bets on team human. But I don’t just pray. I get out there and do the work too, and that’s what we’re doing here every day. Yes, it’s all about the work, man. No, it’s all about the work, and I’m, yeah, we’re going to continue to fight the good fight, and you know, just spread that love and gratitude, but remind people like our work is just now starting.

1:43:50 It ain’t gonna be finished. It ain’t finished yet. We’re just now getting started, but the good thing is, is that we know what we don’t want. We know what we don’t want anymore, so now it’s time for us to really put in the work. So I’m very encouraged, and more so with this conversation, too.

1:44:06 This has definitely made my day. It’s about 1pm here. I’m sure it’s pretty late over there, but like, you know, I’m gonna have a great workout because of this. Trust me, trust me. It’s just one of those reminders, like, wow, I’m not alone.

1:44:19 So I appreciate, you know, the level of vulnerability you actually show here as well, and that’s why I’m privileged to be on London Real. Thank you. I appreciate you, and I think everyone’s got the lesson, like, yeah, we know what to do. Just be better. Work on yourself.

1:44:31 Stay positive. We know where we need to go, so let’s put in the work. And it feels good to know that we had something to do with one of Phil Heath’s workouts, so I’m just saying that for my team here. So bless you, brother. I appreciate you.

1:44:41 Next time we’ll do this in person, sending you lots of love from London. All right, take care. All right. You.