Sammy "The Bull" Gravano - Mafia Hitman To The Don Of Social Media

Full transcript: Sammy “The Bull” Gravano on London Real

2:51 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, the former American mobster who served as underboss of the notorious Gambino crime family.

3:11 You became a made man in New York City in 1976 and quickly rose up the ranks, earning tens of millions of dollars a year, as well as a reputation of one of the most feared enforcers in Mafia history, later serving as the right-hand man to New York kingpin John Gotti. You have openly confessed to 19 murders or hits during your time in Cosa Nostra, and in 1991 became the highest ranking Mafia member to break the Blood Oath and become a government witness. Your testimony saw John Gotti sentenced to life imprisonment without parole, and you received a five-year sentence in 2001.

3:44 You were sentenced to a further 20 years for your role in a drug trafficking ring in Arizona, and spent the next 16 years behind bars. Since then, your life has taken a completely different direction, with you building an online media empire, complete with a podcast, YouTube channel and successful website. Your videos and interviews have been seen by millions of people around the world as you reinvent yourself as the dawn of social media. Sammy, welcome to London Real.

4:11 Thank you, it’s my pleasure. Let me correct one of two things you said. Um, I got a 20-year sentence on that second bit. I did almost 18 years, 17 years, seven months, not 16, but that’s fine. Um, we want to just keep the record straight, and everything else you said is true.

4:31 I’m involved in three Mafia wars. I’m involved with 19 murders. I didn’t commit 19 murders, but I’m involved, and, uh, so, uh, everything else you said is perfect, and I’m ready to go. I have a lot of followers when I’m watching. I got over 520,000 subscribers, and I have 84 million views, and a lot of them are people who are from England who text me and send me messages all the time.

5:05 Um, I have a girl out there, a young girl, very smart, very good looking, talented girl. Got great conversations with us. She tells me what’s going on in the country a lot of times. Uh, my name is Demi. Uh, by tally, so I’d like to give her a shout out.

5:23 She’s a great kid. She’s you know, when I talk with many, many people from England, and uh, all right, well, let’s jump into it. So Sammy, last year, in 2021, I was running to be the next mayor of London, and I spent seven months on a campaign trail trying to get this city back on track after we had been locked down in 2020. And I used to work really hard during the day. We had a battle bus.

5:48 I used to drive it around the city. The police actually were trying to stop me and stop me from campaigning because they said I was breaking rules. So I probably felt like you felt at one point. And at night, I used to go home, and I used to watch your podcast, Sammy, and I remember coming in and telling the whole team here. We had a whole campaign crew, and I’m like, you know, you gotta watch Sammy’s YouTube channel, because it’s fascinating.

6:12 What I’m watching here now, I’d watch the original interview with Patrick Bet-David, which I think has been watched now 17 million times. That was my first real exposure to you. I think I’d seen the Diane Sawyer interview back in the day, but, you know, I think that was your first time maybe on camera, with, with, with David, with Patrick, and I, I felt like you were on guard, but on your YouTube channel, I saw this. I got introduced to this very nuanced character named Sammy the Bull, and especially your podcast, and, um, you know, hats off to your, your producer James Carroll, because that first season had me gripped.

6:46 Um, I got to see a lot of things about you that I didn’t understand, about why you did things, how you felt about things. Um, and I guess I wanted to start by asking you, do you ever find it stranger than fiction what you’re doing? I mean, here you are in Arizona on a YouTube channel talking openly about the details of the hits and the crimes, you know, back when you got made in 76. If someone had told you 50 years from now you would be doing this live broadcast and things like that, would you ever believe it?

7:16 And how does it feel sometimes to be doing what you’re doing now? Well, you know, it was never a public, I was very private. You know, when you went in and I took the oath, it’s a secret society and a brotherhood, so I kept that very secret, very private. I never talked publicly. So finally, you would have told me, or I would have told myself, you’re going to be talking publicly.

7:41 If you would have told me that five, six years ago, I would say you’re crazy, not me. I know that’s not what I do, but um, I got, uh, into it when I came out. We were going to write a book, my wife’s book, ex-wife’s book. It’s the story of a woman, story of what it was like to be married to someone like me, and, um, we couldn’t get it sold, and then somebody approached her to, uh, do a podcast, and she asked my help, and I said sure. I know, and that’s how I started doing this stuff.

8:20 My son actually put me on Facebook, and then YouTube. You know, when I went in, I went in. Now I’m out of prison five years, so 18, it pressed 23 years ago. These phones were in here. YouTube wasn’t here, so I had no idea what this was about, what it was, and uh, I don’t have too much knowledge even now.

8:44 I mean, I’m not a tech guy, so, and I started talking about, you know, my crimes and stuff like that, and I wanted to be very truthful, very open, very honest, and I think it clicked with the public, and we’re listening to a lot of different shows that don’t have that authenticity, and I think we clicked with a lot of people. I started getting used to it. Um, I started getting, you know, text messages and stuff, and I started answering, just like I said, with that woman from England, and I formed a relationship of friendship with uh, she was very smart to have people in different countries.

9:28 Uh, Israel, different, or Island, or Australia, different places, and uh, it was very interesting to me, and uh, as a Mafia dude, I was a problem solver, as that’s what happens when you go up in rank. Everybody who has a problem comes to you, and I found it very easy to deal, answering some of these people’s questions and giving advice. So this is how it all started, and I got comfortable doing that. Um, and it blew up. Patrick David, you know, when I first came out, I didn’t have any numbers, so I couldn’t really talk to anybody or send me to Polio case.

10:13 What’s your numbers today? Everything in Hollywood, it’s about numbers, so when I started doing this, I didn’t have numbers, so Patrick called me a few times. I didn’t want to go. He says it himself, and then I said, oh, and I’m going to do an interview with this guy. He seems honorable.

10:31 He seems, you know, like a good guy, and I did it with him, and right now he’s done interviews with tons and tons of people, and we’re his number one show, that, like you said, at 17 million views. And right now I got 520,000 subscribers and 84 million views, so we resonated with people in all different ways in life. Um, not only a gangster, Mariah, both. I understand business and unions and stuff like that. Coming into politics, you’re running for mayor, I heard a little bit about it, not much, but it’s hard for somebody who’s honest and sincere to come out and try and do the right thing.

11:20 You’re fighting an uphill battle against, you know, whoever they are, whoever they may be, liberal elites or whatever it is. They have the control and the power, they use that machine against you, so it’s a tough road. I don’t know if you made it. Are you today, or you didn’t make it? I’m not the mayor, uh, which is why I get the, uh, I get to speak with people like you still, uh.

11:43 But yeah, I got a, a real lesson, Sammy, in politics, uh, by running. I really got this. I could imagine, yeah, between the parties and the media and everything else behind the scenes. I got a, a look into it, and it wasn’t very nice, what I saw, but I’m still glad I did it. I love this city.

12:00 You know, it’s my adopting city, a bit like you adopted maybe Arizona. And I love this place. I love the people. I want to see good things for it, but man, that’s a tough racket. Well, you know, we need people like you who come out who are not part of the, the, that, that group of people who control it all, and of course they’re going to give you a hard time, because they don’t want people like you, honest, good people who care about the city and care about the people.

12:32 That’s not what they care about. They care about money, greed, power, control, and you’re the enemy to that, so of course they’re going to give you a hard time. When I talk, like I talk in the United States, they give me a hard time, but uh, we need people like you, and, uh, coming out in larger numbers. I wish they would come out all over the place, because our countries, and I’ll say that both countries, at one time they were just about one, and we have a lot of thinking that’s mutual.

13:06 Um, I’m dealing with people. I’m going to a documentary with accompanied from England right now as we speak, and uh, they’re good people, uh, and they need good honest people coming out and getting caring about the people. I mean, when you make it, get up there, uh, and care about people. You know, if you made it, that’s good. Good for you, and it’s got to be good for the country, whatever country it is, our country or your country.

13:40 And I look at it almost like I would look at Italy, because my heritage is in Italy, so I care about different countries in Europe. I got a lot of follows from Australia and Ireland and all over the place, so they’re beautiful people, good people all over the place, and everybody seems to have problems, some of them the same. This new world order [expletive] I don’t know what that is, but uh, what do we go back to? Kings and queens, and they run the country, and that’s it, or do we go back to people like you?

14:13 Go forward. It was an independent party. It is not a Republican, it’s not a Democrat. He’s a person who cares about the country. You know, hopefully we’ll get to that point.

14:24 People will wake up, and we’ll get to that. Yeah, I hope so. It means we just got to keep having these conversations, and I want to get to freedom of speech later, because I think we both have had issues where we’re being shut down on some of these technology platforms, which are now bigger than the governments. But we will get to that. I want to talk about the media you’ve created, Sammy, because I, I think I remember hearing a story when you decided to create it.

14:47 It’s called Our Thing, which is your podcast. It’s got, I think, five seasons right now, I think. Um, but I, I remember I thought I heard you saying that you got approached, that someone wanted to do it or do it this way or help you do it, and at one point you said, no, no, no, I’m going to do Our Thing my way. And you had a very distinctive style of doing it, with some music, you know, with some, sometimes some video and graphics, and then you, in this studio, you’re at talking very, very frankly to camera.

15:16 That was intentional by you to present your story that way, right? Yes. When they, told me originally, told me about a podcast, they put this big microphone in front of me, earphones on my head, and I would talk, and uh, I said that I don’t like. They said, what do you mean? I said, I’d like to take this off, put a different kind of, might get these ear things off for me, and uh, and I’d like, uh, some b-roll in it.

15:49 I’d like some music in it, and they said, uh, we don’t, they don’t do that. They just sit down at a table with a microphone in front of them. So I said, I really don’t care what they do. I’m just telling you what I want to do, and uh, they said, okay, we’ll try it. Sammy, we tried it.

16:10 They loved it. Now you know, uh, you know, people follow you. It’s, uh, the best form of, uh, flattery. So obviously it went over big. People started using music and b-roll and different things.

16:27 And I, I’ve had, I have it now. I’m doing other things. I’m working on to go and take it to a whole nother level that is not out yet. Um, it went over good. I’m in contracts with a lot of different things, in a way the contracts are great.

16:45 We’re making a movie, scripted show, documentary, um, a bunch of things, but in a way it’s inhibiting me a little bit, because those contracts, I can’t keep talking about certain, you know, issues because I’m in contract, and I can’t, uh, screw that up, but uh, and now I’m opening more or less. I’m actually thinking about, in January, we’re going to reboot our whole system, our whole plan, um, our whole platform. We’re going to redesign it, make it a little more artistic.

17:24 I did artwork in prison. I did a lot of art, and, you know, sometimes they’re a little confused. I mean, as a gangster, he’s telling us how to do creative [expletive]. But I’ve done that. I want to upgrade it, make it more creative, make it more entertaining for people who are watching it, especially in this day and age, we were locked down, all these things, so uh, and I want to keep it very truthful and honest, so I think that’s an important factor too.

17:54 So I think if you go along that line, um, your success will follow. And I don’t follow people. I’m a leader all my life, and I may make mistakes, but uh, so be it. A lot of times I’ll do something, and they’ll say, okay, we’ll edit this, and I, I don’t even want to leave it alone. Yeah, I make mistakes, you know, so leave it alone.

18:20 I mean, so people know it’s not totally edited. Of course you added some of it, but uh, you know, I just want to be real with it. If you’re like me, you like me, you don’t like me, or you hate me, you love me, whatever. You know, that you, I can’t control people’s thoughts and feelings. I just could be me, and however they think, they think, you know, so that’s the way I try to run what I’m doing.

18:48 You know, I get, and it’s working. Look at this interview right now. I’m sitting with a guy like you. I mean, it’s, you know, years ago, it’s a dream come true. Yeah, here I am, a gangster heavyweight gangster, talking to someone like you.

19:03 There’s a reason. That’s the reason that I’m trying to do the right thing. I guess you’ll see it. I heard your entry into this, and I, that’s my flow is what’s happening. I’ve did some major interviews just recently, and and I’ve got a bunch of people calling me.

19:22 They want to do, you know, talks and interviews like you. So this, this to me is a highlight, to sit with someone like you from a beautiful country. Yeah, so I think I’m going right there, and I’m, I’m here because I, I saw something that was real. That’s what I saw, Sammy, when I tuned into your channel, and I could see that what you, everything you did was intentional, and then ultimately I got it straight from you. So I didn’t have some Hollywood director involved, some screenwriter, some actor, or some blah blah blah.

19:54 I got it straight from you, and um, you know, I started YouTube 11 years ago, Sammy, and at the time I just had some webcams. I was in my kitchen, but I knew I wanted to do it my way, and I was, it was going to be real. That’s why we called it London Real, and so at the end of the day, you know, that’s what people get, and that’s probably the best thing, because then they can like you or hate you. And I remember saying at the time, Sammy, and I say this now, and I’ll say this to you, is that we don’t know what YouTube is yet.

20:22 You know, when you first saw it, you’re like, oh, it’s TV on the internet, but it’s not, because you’re making friendships with people all over the world. You’re communicating. You’re expressing yourself artistically and emotionally. You’re having a heightened human experience. The last couple years doing what you’re doing, maybe some of the best years of your life.

20:40 What you’re doing now, maybe the most emotionally fulfilling years of your life right now, and it’s real, and you might say, well, it’s a, it’s a computer screen, but it sure feels real what you’re doing. And um, you know, Sammy, I was listening to you tell your stories, and maybe it’s the story of you becoming a made man, or maybe it’s your story with Johnny Keys, or maybe it’s another story. And Sammy, I’m not in the mafia. I spent a little time in New York City.

21:06 I’ve been to Sparks Steakhouse. I’ve been to Little Italy, maybe after you were there, but I knew what you were telling me was real. Isn’t that fascinating, as a human? Something in my DNA told me, this guy’s telling me the real truth, and I could feel it, and I felt connected to you. Does that sound crazy?

21:25 Because that’s the way I feel when I listen to you. I know that that sounds real. I mean, and that’s the way I want, I like to keep it, and that’s why I’m doing this interview. It’s vice versa. I feel that I know probably everything.

21:38 I don’t know you personally, but everything I heard about you is the same thing. You’re real, and that’s what I look. I don’t look for somebody who’s going to talk nonsense or talk [expletive], you know? So, and and I think the people feel that. They see it, you know?

21:56 If we don’t like each other right now, they’ll feel it. They’ll see it. If we’re honest and open, and you know, it’s sincere, and they’ll feel it. They’ll want to see it. They’ll like it.

22:08 They’ll enjoy it, and we’re connecting with other people. I don’t know how many people will watch this, probably a lot. And uh, I think they’ll enjoy it. They’ll get to understand you and me and this whole relationship, and I hope, um, we’re gonna get along. We’re not going to get married, so if you guys think you’re gonna fall in love, with you, you’re not going to fall in love.

22:32 We’re not going to get married, but uh, well, it’s, this is great stuff. This is, I, I agree. This is an extension of things and a way to put yourself out there, you know, do the right thing and see what happens, and uh, and the people judge. This is better than a vote. This is, people could judge.

22:55 They could change the channel, not watch it, get bored, and this is a beautiful uh technology, if it’s used properly. Sometimes they want to shut you down because you can’t say certain things. That’s a crime in itself, because this is, could be a beautiful thing where people could relate to, see things, understand things. Maybe I’ll say things about America that they don’t understand, or how I feel in the country, not some politician telling us what’s telling you what’s going on.

23:27 It’s me, a little old gangster telling you what’s going on in the country, and what’s going on, and how I feel, and how other people feel, because when I’m talking, I have tons and tons of people who listen to me, so you’re listening to them too. I’m relating them at their message as well. It’s not just me talking. I hear tons of people, and I change my mind every once in a while. You know, I am, uh, an overthinker.

23:59 An overthinker, once he makes up his mind, it, it’s, you can’t change his mind. That’s me, but I do change my mind occasionally when I hear so many different people. It brings me back to think of my mother and father, or their children, and hard-working people. So I’m hearing, then I’m hearing that cry. I’m hearing their story, and it helps me change my mind on occasion, very rare, but I do.

24:27 And uh, so when I talk, I try to relate them and me and my parents, the good side of me and the bad side. I don’t duck the bad side. I’m not going to win Father of the Year awards or nothing like that, but I’m going to be known for this as well as the bad stuff. Yeah, I’m a bit of an overthinker as well, Sammy, so I know what that feels like. Um, tell me about what, what the experience has been like doing the podcast, because I see so many versions of Sammy.

24:59 Um, the Sammy that can joke. Um, there’s Sammy that, I, it sometimes it feels like it’s a cathartic experience for you. Sometimes it’s maybe therapy. I know it’s been for me, this show, for me personally, so I could express things and try to hash things out. And sometimes I can tell that it’s very hard for you to tell some of these painful stories again and again.

25:20 And um, you know, I’ve heard you say that, kind of, when you were at the time, you know, where you commit some of these crimes, you didn’t think about it. It was like an automatic machine. But now, later, sometimes when you tell these stories, phrases, sometimes feels like you’re, you’re cutting an open, an open wound, or opening a wound again. Maybe you could just talk about the range of emotions you feel when you’re talking about your past. Well, I’ve always felt the pain of some of those decisions.

25:48 Of course, I was a hit guy. I was very loyal to those in Cosa Nostra, and I followed orders. A lot of those cases, I fought to make that guy live, even though he broke certain rules. Our rules are, you break these rules, you die, and they know that, and I tried to save some of them. Some I did, some of them I couldn’t, and when I couldn’t, I’ll make a guy.

26:13 I will come looking for you, and I will kill you. That’s my job, and goes in us like a soldier in a war. He’s not happy about killing the other side, but he lives and fights for his country, and he does what he’s told, whether he likes it or not. But they were painful for me, a lot of these things, especially people who died who are good friends of mine, and in a way, it’s a therapy to me to talk about it, but it’s still extremely painful. It’s just as painful as it was by then, it is now, and maybe because I got a little older and I get choked up a little easier.

26:54 Um, I never choked up and cried as a kid, but it’s not, didn’t mean that I didn’t care. I did, and on occasion I could shed a tear or two, but opening up and talking about some of them now, I don’t want to hide them. I want to talk about them, but they’re painful when I do, and sometimes I really can’t even get the words out. I choke up, because I could think I could see the person again, see the crime again clearly. For some reason, those, those things I’ve never forgotten anything.

27:31 It could have been the weather was cold. It could have, he wore a blue shirt and then a green tie, or whatever it may be. Those things don’t escape me when I talk. I, those details come back, because I see it again. I’m reliving it again, as strange as this may sound to people, um, but and it’s painful for me.

27:55 Um, a lot of them, I open up these stories, and I want them to know their loved one who passed in these situations, or was killed, or whatever word you want to use, why, and uh, how they should feel about their father or their grandfather, whoever they’re looking at or listening to, and understand what happened. I tell my children, I broke a golden rule in Golden Ocean. Cooperating is a golden mode. You don’t break, you break that rule, you die. I broke that rule.

28:29 I tell my children, friends, and family around me, if I’m ever killed, don’t get mad at the guy who came down. He’s following orders, doing what he’s supposed to do. And I live by the gun, and if a guy by the gun, that was my choice. Accept it, and don’t be mad at the person who came down. He’s under orders to do what he had to do.

28:55 It’s part of the life. Understanding was, you know, it was a punishment that I maybe should get or should have gotten, but I did. A lot of people understand when I cooperated. That’s a whole story in itself with John Gotti, and a lot of people know the story now. There has been State Police, or uh, FBI, and guys who flipped, cooperated after me, and all of those secrets came out.

29:26 What he did to cause me to flip. All my life, I’ve been in trouble and never flipped, and they understood it. So I don’t have that hatred anymore. When you first cooperate, everybody probably hated me, but they don’t have that no more. That seems to go away, not just because of time, but they understood.

29:46 The real tough guys understand exactly what it was. Now, I’ll give you a little example to that. When I was on top in a high position, I was the underboss, and somebody would flip that you would never expect. A real tough guy. I never just said that he’s a rat.

30:08 No, I, the first thing out of my mouth was, what made a guy like him cooperate? He’s not a rat, never was, never will be. What happened? So I want to hear their story. I want to hear exactly why.

30:24 This is another reason I think my podcast blew up, but telling the truth on what happened, and then being verified by so many different people, um, is an important thing to understand now. There are guys who cooperate for almost literally no reason, some sort of gain or something. Um, I don’t accept that. You know, where, brothers, we’re on the same side. They’re the enemy.

30:56 We fight our case, but if I betray you and I’m helping them put you away, and you say, no, no, I’m not, that’s crazy, I’m not doing that, and you’ll flip. You walk the other way. You’re not a rat. You’re in a situation. Why should I go to prison for the rest of my life?

31:20 I can understand the cops, that’s their job, but now Sam is putting me away. He’s backing it. He’s making it 10 times worse, because he wants to go free. So when people understand those stories, and that’s what I went through, that’s what happened with John Gotti. Right?

31:35 That’s exactly what happened. Right, right. It’s exactly what happened. So when I got to that point, and he had told me, right to my face, I was with him 11 months in prison before I flipped, and he said, Jeremy, I’m going to make the lawyers make you look like a monster. My tapes, where I’m talking behind your back, uh, you’re gonna hear I’m talking negative, so they’re going to tell the jurors, you hear John Gotti complaining about Sammy, it’s killing Union guys, he’s killing partners in business, he’s doing all that.

32:11 It’s not, I got, he lost control of his f***ing animal. So I say, John, is that what you really want to do? He said, that’s what I have to do. The boss has to be free, and you got to do the time, even though those lies about, uh, I’m killing Union people and my partners. I never did that.

32:30 But, um, does the boss have to be free, Sammy? Did he, did that ever have any weight to you when he said that? No, no, no. And here’s what I’ll do. I’ll go back in time, prehistoric time, somebody come out, big, tall, good-looking guy, really well built, and he becomes the leader of his clan, and uh, he protects the people.

32:55 They catered to him. If he wants sex, the women give him sex. If he wants coffee, the men go hustle and make it. All of these things happen. He’s the leader.

33:04 He’s the king, but they’re walking in the woods, him and his whole clan, and they see it. Save it to Tiger, and he tells two of his guys on his side, go kill that thing. They go to him, the tiger, whim said that he goes to the other guy on the other side, go kill that tiger. He runs out there. The tiger kills him.

33:28 He starts to back up. We have to stick together. No, no, that’s not the way it goes. You’re the boss. You’re the protector.

33:38 You put the men on this side and the women behind you, and you come to kill the f***ing tiger. That’s what a leader does. Not sacrifice the people. It’s real easy to kind of sit on your ass and tell all the people to go do it, and you sit back. So no, the boys don’t have to go.

33:58 You’re a boss. You got to stand up. You don’t throw me. You sacrifice me for you to go free. So I try to make that comparison to people, so they would understand it a little bit better.

34:12 But no, and it was you on tape. You did it all. We’re all arrested, and kind of you, your mouth. I’m not on that tape. I’m not on any of the tapes.

34:25 So you want to sacrifice me, and you don’t want me to defend myself to try to fight for my freedom. What would my wife and children think when people are calling me a sadistic animal or serial killer, or an incident? I’m not a serial killer. I’m a hit guy, and he, daddy, didn’t even try to defend himself, so maybe that’s exactly what he is. No, no, I’m not going to sit there like a potted plant and do that.

34:57 So the thing is, you know, it’s not easy to walk away in the Mafia. In the situation I was in, it exploded all around the world, and more than likely I would be killed. I knew that. It didn’t take a college position. It took balls to do what I did.

35:18 It’s taking balls. I never hit. I’m out here talking still. So part of the talking is that so people really understand the life, and maybe some people, you know, I tell a lot of times they say, talk to kids. No, I’m not going to talk to kids.

35:41 I’ll talk to kids. You want me to talk to kids? I’ll talk to them. I’ll tell them this: you want to be me? You want to be Sammy the Bull?

35:50 You’re going to kill your best friends, or they’re going to kill you. You’re going to do 22 years in prison like I did. You’re going to be involved in two or three Mafia wars like I was. You’re gonna get shot twice like I was. You’re going to get stabbed once like I was.

36:06 You’re going to go to prison. You’re gonna fight your whole life. Go ahead, sucker, be me. Go out there now, that if you see that and understand that, and you’re a teenager or you’re in your 20s, that’s your, that’s real life to you. Be me.

36:27 Go ahead. Go kill people, go do whatever you want to do, but that’s your future. You may have some good times for a while, but it won’t last. Go enjoy it. I saw a black guy do a thing.

36:45 He was in prison, behind bars, and he said the same thing. He says, tough guy, go out and rob a bodega, do whatever you want, sell drugs. I see you over here, and he was in prison cell. I’m going to see you over here, and um, you’ll probably do a good portion, if not your whole life, in him. They’re going to tell you when to get up, when to go to sleep, when to eat, went to [expletive], went to the park, went to go to bed.

37:22 Enjoy it. I’ll see you over here. That’s an example for kids that I give, not some, well, don’t do that. No, I’m not gonna hold that wine and [expletive] the real deal. You want kids to see you.

37:38 Kids, if you, if there’s kids here watching this and you’re teens, that’s my advice to you: do whatever you want, live your life. It’s your life. Don’t let anybody tell you how to live it. But I’m telling you how, what will happen. You want to be me?

37:52 Go do it. If you could do it all over again, Sammy, and make a choice at 12 to not go with the rampers and to go another way, I mean, you could have gone and been Donald Trump, you know, that could have been you, including the politics. Probably. Do you ever think, if I had to do it again, I would have done it differently, or would you ultimately have done it the same, because of your love or respect of Cosa Nostra? I think I would have did similar.

38:19 I was dyslexic. I had really a lot of trouble at school. I never got out of the eighth grade. That’s why I joined the gang. It was comfortable for me.

38:29 I I would have made some changes in my life as I was going along. I mean, everybody does that. It’s one day, you know, you watch football, Monday quarterback. Everybody told us what shouldn’t happen, because they already saw it. So I went through the same thing.

38:44 I’d be Monday quarterback. There’s some changes that I would make, and uh, but I loved and respected the life. It’s part of my heritage. It came from Sicily. I’m Sicilian.

38:57 My mother, father, was to say it, so it’s part of my heritage, but some of the mistakes, some of the things I did, um, I would have loved to try to change, and I would have did a little differently, um, but I, I’m, I really feel that I am against the right this minute sitting here, and, and the only thing is, I have two sides of me. I have a split personality. One side of me is a f***ing lion. One side of me is a lamb, good person. By blind, I calm him down all the time.

39:37 Take it easy, take it easy, and I use the side of trying to be a decent human being and being a lamb. But I have those two personalities. If you went to hurt my kids or my family, I will not even try to control that line. That’s in me. I, I can’t help that.

40:00 I don’t know if it’s born to me. I don’t know how it’s there, but it’s there. I’m not going to try to. I didn’t find of the God. I didn’t find all these things.

40:09 You know, people come out, I found you. I, you know, everybody would say that in prison they want to get an early release. I found Jesus, and, and now I want to be let out early. You know, and people ask me, did you find him in prison? I didn’t know.

40:23 I never saw him in prison. I’ve never bumped into him, and uh, I think I believe in God. I thought Jesus was a beautiful person, but um, those aren’t things that changed my life. Things I’ve done changed my life as a man. I think more of, before God, I think of my father and my mother.

40:46 My mother was a seamstress, my father was a painter, then they joined forces and opened up a dress factory, hard-working, 10, 12 hours a day. We did it, and go back to the factory, clean up, or get ready for the next day. So I inherited that, and I kept that in me. That’s my lamb side, and I respect that and love that side. So I try to be a decent human being with everything I do, not a bully, don’t use my name or reputation as a bully in any way.

41:18 It’s hard to do when you [expletive] treat people. I’m a little more to see if we call, but uh, so you’re pretty effective, Sammy? Yeah, so I, I try my best to live my life and do the right thing, um, and be honest and sincere and open, and uh, you know, I, I think that’s what I do with myself. So there’s changes I would make to answer your question, but uh, I, I am what I am, and uh, it’ll be on my tombstone, and the bad part and the good part. So what people are seeing now, I think, is the good part of the better part, and uh, and I tend to keep that, you know, going.

42:06 I’ve done enough time in prison. I will never do another illegitimate thing. I’ll never do a murder, because nobody’s ordering me to do a murder. I’ll never do one. I never woke up any morning of my life want to kill.

42:19 Larson, that was always, goes in Cosa Nostra. It was always in our family according to our rules. Like I said, with a soldier, he comes home for more. He’s not coming home to kill our citizens or anybody like that. He’s done that in the military.

42:38 So it’s not that I can’t. I would lie if I said I can’t. I could, but I don’t want to, and I never will, and uh, so I live by that code. So, and I would have had more of that in the Mafia, but I didn’t have control over that, just like soldiers don’t have control of who they’re gonna shoot or what town they’re going to raid. We don’t have that control.

43:04 So I would make changes to my life, but I think I would I love goes, and also I love a lot of them that were in it. Some of them despise. I despise. So I’m gonna became serial killers. They enjoyed it and became serial killers.

43:19 We, that’s not us. That’s not Cosa Nostra. So I despise that. It’s the kind of stuff, and uh, so of course I would make some changes, but I’d probably be the same thing if I didn’t have dyslexic, uh, if I wasn’t dyslexic, uh, I’d probably maybe would have went to college, maybe been somebody else. Maybe I would have, uh, I’m a little bit of a warrior.

43:48 Maybe I would have been a politician and fought for people’s rights, because I do. I’m a people’s person. I love people. Um, so I, I think that’s the answer to that, but I would probably, I’m still a gangster right this minute, as we talk a lot about, um, Cosa Nostra on your show, and um, I was wondering how you would describe it to someone, you know, when I listen to you, and maybe you’ve never heard this before, Sammy, but for me it looks like a piece of technology.

44:18 It’s, it’s almost like a system that was constructed and built I’m guessing for the people of Sicily to find a way where they could empower themselves, and if you honor that piece of technology, it can take you places where you couldn’t have gotten before, as long as you follow those rules and make sure it’s working exactly how it works. And when I hear you talk about it, and you say, I’m close enough through and through, and when we talk about some of the stories where you meet other people that are Cosa Nostra, even though you might have to kill those people, you feel something, even down to your DNA, somehow back to your roots of a system that was created by people so they could survive. Maybe, um, am I getting any of this right?

45:02 And how do you explain Cosa Nostra to people? Well, you know, she started in Sicily in Italy, and it didn’t start as a mob or something illegitimate. The Sicilians were basically farmers and peasants. They lived like that. There was no military there, very small police force.

45:29 What happened is that when countries came to invade Italy, they really wanted to invade Rome. Rome was where the money was. Rome had the power. We all know about the Roman army. They were extremely strong, so they, they landed in Sicily.

45:49 You know, they had wooden boats, 50,100 people. Another ship would come in, 50,100 people. They landed there and stayed there. It was easy to take over Sicily, so they landed there until their military was big enough to try and go to Rome to take over. While they were there, they raped the women.

46:08 They killed people. They took their goats, and they used them and abused them. And um, what they did, the Sicilians, they were all related: uncles, cousins, fathers, grandfathers. In these small towns, even the neighbors were like family, and it started like little clans to protect the people, the women and children especially. That’s how it started.

46:39 There was an old story once that I heard, is that they came in and they raped somebody’s daughter. I don’t remember the names of this, but they went to this man who was a strong man in the community. They excused all the women, and they said, those soldiers, those two soldiers raped Giuseppe’s daughter. Also, yeah, and then next day they killed those soldiers, cut their private parts off and jammed it down their throat. That’s how they were found.

47:24 They wanted to do it as brutally as they could to show, if you touch our women or our children, this is what we’ll do. The next day, they brought the whole town into the village, or whatever it was, into a square. They took out 10 people, women, children, and men, and lined them up. They told the whole town, tell us who did this, or we will kill all of these hand people. Now, the crowd, someone else’s people, the kids or the women.

48:07 It was either their wife or their kid, but they all felt for those women or children or men, because the whole town was so united. Like I said, like family. Not one person gave up who did the murders. Those 10 people were killed. The mothers and the fathers, sisters and brothers, neighbors, and uncles and aunts stood there and watched, and never said a word, and didn’t do anything to stop it.

48:46 Of course they cried, moaned, and uh, they never said anything, because the people who made that thought and did those things were protecting their community. They would not give them up, even sacrificing their own loved ones. Soldiers went back and said, no matter what we do to these people, if we touch their women, if we touch their kids, I remember how those people were found. They’re going to do that to us. Very rarely did another woman get raped or a child abused, and that’s how the Mafia started.

49:36 They were cleansed eventually. They were called Mafia. Event actually goes in Cosa Nostra means our thing. It was our thing. Those people, and they were democracy.

49:51 A mafioso was a man who was a member in this brotherhood, in the secret society. He was well respected. They took each other’s back to protect one another. Had nothing to do with crying, crying girl later, when they fled Italy and came into the United States during World War II. And so there’s all kinds of stories I’m now working on with a few people to do the history of the Mafia, like I’m doing with you right now, but the entire history of the Mafia.

50:35 I’m 77. My mentor, toddler Arello, was my captain. He was about 20, 25 years older than me. If he was alive, I’d be a hundred and whatever. And he had talked to me about when I was young.

50:50 I would sit with him, and we would snooze, talk together, and he would talk about his history of growing up. I was a young street dog, a little bit associated with the Mafia. I wasn’t a made member yet, and he would tell me his stories growing up, who was his friends. He would talk about Vito Genovese, Lucky Luciano, Al Capone, and on and on and on. I was flawed with these stories.

51:20 I have also talked to historians who talked and did research for years, college graduates, different type of people than me, but they did a lot of investigating about the Mafia, going way back. It was four or five of them. They worked on it for years. They got in touch with me one day, and they said, Sammy, love you, love your stories. We’d like to share some stuff.

51:48 We did a lot of work, and I said, yeah, of course. I gave them our address, and they sent down tons of literature, all the work they’ve done, four or five years on it. So now I absorb that, so I’m putting that together. I’m working with some really, really smart people, and uh, we’re gonna do the history of the Mafia in a way that nobody’s ever heard before, so that everyone who listens to this has a true understanding of the Mafia. You know, I give you, they were, you know, the Mafia had a very strong relationship with the church in World War II.

52:31 Um, Italy made a mistake, and they went uh, into fascism, and uh, who was the president back then? I forget his name. Mussolini made a deal with Hitler. They were doing all kinds of things. We did have a lot of relationship with the Jews.

52:52 We didn’t like what they were doing, and we were smuggling them out of Germany, making them look like little Italian boys and girls, putting them on ships and getting them away. They went to the church, which they were very close with, and they told them what they were doing, and they asked to help. The church wouldn’t help. It caused a, a rift between the Mafia and the church, and uh, they kept smuggling them out, and they came to America. That’s how all those big names I just mentioned got back into America, because Mussolini hated the Mafia with a passion, because they would fight against fascism.

53:39 Years later, [expletive] you, Luciano was in prison about 45 years. This is in books and everything. 45 years. You better deal with the government. He hated, passion.

53:52 He hated Muslim. He opened the piers in New York to the government, he opened the piers in Italy, so that the United States couldn’t invade through those piers, which would be open, no resistance, and get in and fight against an Italian army. Um, that’s why they didn’t bomb the s*** out of Italy, because this was done after the war was over. They released him for his war efforts during the war, how he helped America invade Italy and get rid of fascism, and they let him out of prison way early, and said, your only agreement is that you must go back to Sicily and never come back, but you won’t do any more time.

54:52 And that was all done. There’s books of its history on it and everything. And uh, so knowing all this information that I know, I’m going to share it with the public and show what it was when the people came here from Italy. There was Mafia mixed in, and and that same thinking they had from Italy, they brought it to the United States, and it went all over the place, but what they really brought in is hard-working, good people. Seemed like every Italian woman was a seamstress, every Italian guy was a bricklayer or a mason or a carpenter or something.

55:33 They, they have an amazing history with the United States. In the United States, bad one and a great, we only know about the bad one. The gangster movies are shooting everybody, drinking, going with the local women, and all that [expletive], but the real stories of what they want, what they meant, they’re part of this country, just like black people. We hear a lot of [expletive] stories when there was racism, and it was doing all kinds of weird [expletive].

56:03 They were part of America still, up and they helped build it. Asian people. Our relationship with England was shady for a while. It was great. It was shady, and it got great.

56:16 It’s still great, hopefully, uh, and it stays that way, but that all should come out in, in my stories, the truth. Yeah, so that people really understand the history of this thing, and I’m working on that project now as well, and maybe in the near future it’ll come out just like my podcast came in. You know, when I got a real dose of your relationship with Cosa Nostra is, um, when you talked, it was episode seven of series one of your podcast, and that’s when you talked about the Commission hit, and I think there was a war going on at the time between families, and you were commissioned to do a hit against one of the top hitmen.

56:59 I know it was Johnny Keys was the guy, and I know you can only talk so much about it, but you know, there’s a point where you actually get him, and you start to spend time with him before you have to kill him, and you say you fall in love with him. You love him because he embodies the essence of Cosa Nostra in a way that maybe you’d never even seen before in a man. You sure hadn’t seen it in your boss, Paul Castellano, at the time, and yet you also knew what you had to do, because the rules were there, but you had this amazing, fascinating moment for me, maybe, when I understood what Cosa Nostra was, where you were almost looking at someone that you aspired to be, and he was looking at you as someone that maybe he used to be.

57:46 And yet you guys still had to go through this process of the, the hit, in order to keep Cosa Nostra functioning. Um, am I summarizing that okay, and is there anything you want to add to that? That’s the best summary I’ve ever heard. Uh, anybody say that’s a great summary. Um, everything you said was perfect, and uh, I did, I, I, before, I, I was with this guy in a, in a van, and doing things for hours, 13 hours.

58:22 I can’t get into all the reasons. Like, you know, I’m in contract, I’m doing a movie about it, so I can’t get too deep. You, the way you put it, was perfect, and he was someone who was never in that position. I can only imagine what that position is like, to be him and the things he said and the things he did. Blow me away, and he, to maybe what became the epitome of that life.

59:00 Again, I fell in love with it. He killed me that night to carry out what I was supposed to do. and uh, what it was. I’ll give you one or two little descriptions. Is that we were too summarized.

59:28 We were too summarized. Samurai, the Japanese. It’s a different culture, but we were no different. They’re more vicious than we were, but we were too summarized. That met in battle, he lost, and like a samurai he wanted to die with honor and respect.

59:59 It blew me away. And that’s what I meant by, I, I literally fell in love with him, because he was the epitome of what we’re supposed to be. And I thought, if I was in his position, but I die like him, could I be with him? I, I really didn’t know, and, and these are the things that went through my head. Um, he blew me away.

1:00:38 Um, I saw a movie, The Godfather, where the part where Michael is in a room after he takes over, because all the bosses, he takes up, he’s in a room, and the door is open. There’s other guys in the room with him, and his wife is outside the room, looking in, and one or two guys come to him, get his head, kiss his hand, or the ring, whatever, and another guy comes to the door and closes the door on the wife. The meaning of that is that at that point, in Michael’s life, he’s become the boss.

1:01:29 He closed the door, not only on his wife, but to the world. He was going to, not sure, one thousand percent, and everything else was out. Everything else was secondary. God, country, his wife, his kids, everything, that’s what that door was. Closed.

1:01:55 That’s what the meaning of it was. Most people saw the movie, probably wouldn’t even know that’s the meaning of it. That happened to me. My door was the Johnny Cash that next morning. That door was closed to the world.

1:02:16 I was already tour an amazing degree. Many body who’s known me or been around me, including the FBI, everybody will tell you the same day, but that hit that next morning, that door was closed. Same as that movie. Why, Sammy? Because of what you learned about him that night, or because he went through with it?

1:02:41 Why? Yes, for all those reasons. For what he did, for what he said to me, our relationship, um, and my life itself, what it became. I fell in love with him. I idolized him in a short period of time, and I did.

1:03:07 That door was closed. I always go to an ocean, not a hundred percent, thousand percent. Nothing else. It’s not that nothing else meant anything to me. Things didn’t mean things to me, but I was one thousand percent.

1:03:30 Whoever little misgivings I had, or whatever you want to call it, about not doing this or not doing that, or whatever they were, gone. A woman I knew a long time ago was very close with her. We loved each other dearly, and we was always, she knew me as a kid. And I talked to her not too long ago, and she said, Sammy, you are always fun loving. You were great.

1:04:08 You had me. It’s beautiful blue, happy eyes. I saw you years later. We always knew each other. We broke away, but we remained friends.

1:04:21 She says, I saw you later, and there was a reason we talked a little bit. She said, he was so different. I said, in what way? I give she said, your eyes were cold, glassy. You looked differently.

1:04:49 In what way? You didn’t look reachable anymore. You didn’t look like you were having fun like we grew up. Something changed. What year you talking about?

1:05:08 She told me the year. That’s right, after that Johnny case. I didn’t discuss that with her, and I said, well, things happen in life. We all go through emotional things, regular people, divorces, children, deaths that happen now, families and loved ones. We all go through emotional things, and we change, of course.

1:05:40 I wouldn’t discuss what my change was, when, huh, and or anybody else. But uh, did part of you die? I know now. What did part of you die that night? I don’t know if part of me died, but part of me changed that night, for the good, for the bad of me.

1:06:03 You know, I think not for the good. Old bed, right? It was right in them, and I was, I I was going off, right? It just happened. It’s not a good side.

1:06:13 I didn’t become the devil, and I didn’t become an angel. It was like, but because it was my heart and soul, right? Of course I loved my wife. I love my children. That didn’t change, and liked people.

1:06:29 That didn’t change. I was just enough for a very, very, you know, I learned a lot of things. I listened to stories, and I once made a mistake, that to do something, well, let’s go beat the value. I was asked and title. My mentor said, no, someday I think you’re going to be sitting in my chair.

1:06:58 Listen to all the stories. What body is, listen to both sides. Someplace in the middle is the truth. Sometimes both people are confused about this truth. Don’t use violence right away.

1:07:17 Use it as a last resort. Be sure of what you’re doing. That is what that door means to me. It’s not good or bad. I would become a don.

1:07:33 I would become a boss mentally, before even my time, before I became beyond the voice, before order. At that moment, I became a don. I grew up to the point to being one of the old ones who sits back, wisdom and knowledge, and not jump to conclusions, and not want to use violence right away, to use it as a last resort. It’s not that we can, but as a last resort, we want to be sure, a hundred percent. We don’t want to hurt innocent people.

1:08:16 We gotta follow the rules of Golden Ocean. That’s what that means to me. It didn’t shut the door that I didn’t love my wife. I didn’t love my kids. I still did.

1:08:27 I love people, and I respect people, but I became a full-fledged, high thinking, not right away to a don, but mentally I was already. So I sat with people from that point on. It was a different me. It was more hardcore, more thinking, Mafiosa, for nobody wants. So that’s what that door was to me.

1:09:00 Right? I’m so glad you’re making that film out of that, because that’s for me, that incident in all of its forms, and there’s so much nuance here that we’re not getting into, is a microcosm of Sammy the Bull, of Cosa Nostra, of a chunk of your life. So yeah, I’m looking forward to that. Um, and I look at, I look at that. I don’t think there’s ever been a mafia movie made like this.

1:09:29 Usually it’s, you know, everybody’s shooting everybody, everybody’s bagging for local women, all kinds of cash and drinking. That’s a marketing movie. This is going to be something they have never ever saw. Two mafiosos, one young, one old. I was the only one a meeting on the, yeah, and the hit itself.

1:09:54 I mean, the way you tell it, I was on the edge of my seat, Sammy, so uh, I won’t spoil it. I’ll say people can watch episode seven. Well, they can watch the movie that’s coming out, um, the next day. You went to see Paul Castellano, and he kind of hugged you, and he was like, wow, Sammy, you did it, and our family is going to be known for, you know, solving this war, and you didn’t want his accolades. You didn’t want to look him in the eye.

1:10:15 You didn’t feel good about what you did, and I think you maybe didn’t respect him, because in Paul, you maybe didn’t see the essence of Cosa Nostra. Can you talk about that meeting the next day, and maybe how that ultimately led to you know, you and John taking Paul out? No, because I’m in under contract, and right now I think the people I’m in contact with are loading up gunslinging, and I’d say, let’s go kill somebody. We’re shutting the f*** up, because I’ll tell him not to come to London.

1:10:48 But um, so we’re not talking about the Gotti hit. And you can talk about the guy, not the guy, hit, sorry, the customer hit. So I, I, when I got to New York City in ’93, Sammy, I worked for Wall Street. I worked on Wall Street, and I was a young punk kid. I was 22 years old, and one night the senior traders and some of the brokers said, we’re going out to dinner, and they took me to Sparks Steakhouse, and they got these big wine glasses.

1:11:12 I’ve never seen wine glasses so big, with the red one, and the steaks, and then during dinner, they say, you know what happened out in front? And I said, no, I don’t know what happened. They said, well, that’s where Paul Castellano was killed by, you know, Sammy and John Gotti, eight years earlier. And I was like, wow, welcome to New York City. And it was something that was done.

1:11:31 Well, broad daylight, you know, night time, in the middle of the Christmas season, in the middle of Midtown Manhattan. Um, probably the, the ballsiest, the most audacious event in New York mafia history, or Mafia history in America. Um, what can you say about that? I could say, for sure, in my opinion, that’s probably the biggest hit that’s ever taking place. Al Capone got a reputation for the same, Valentine’s Day Massacre, but look at it.

1:12:08 It was in a garage, would accrue of Irish guns. A couple of guys came in, no witnesses, no people, no cops, no nothing. They will address those cups and told everybody to get against the war. So they think they’re getting arrested. They all got against the wall, and these cops opened up on them with machine guns.

1:12:32 They wanted cops and gangsters. Now it was a big, it was a smart move. It was those are not sure why, and whatever, but where does that match with the Castellano hit that was done in front of tens of thousands of people walking around that car, cops on every single corner? It was the most massive, ballsy hit that ever took place. There was 11 guys on that hit.

1:13:06 I planned it. I controlled it. Me and John got exciting. The car together. I had a warning walkie-talkie talking to other people who were on the head shooters, and everybody else.

1:13:20 John Gotti was my driver. Um, and even the FBI, when I cooperated, I spoke with them, and they were amazed. They said, there’s never been anything like that, and I had a .357 Magnum sitting on my lap, so if and when the problem started, I was now recalled, not what he told me you could say in the car. I was now a backup shooter, as well. Um, yeah, I told, me there was a guy, a cop, who was off duty, sorry, and concealed weapon, and then pull it out.

1:14:17 The FBI asked him. He was NYPD, and they said, why didn’t you take out your service revolver and get in and try to stop it or do something? I said, I’ve been a cop an extremely long time. I’m about ready to retire. I’m going to tell you the truth.

1:14:42 Seeing a lot of things. I know a lot of things. This was so professionally done. I knew if I pulled out my gun and said police, it would have been backup shooters, and I would have been dead. That’s why I didn’t do it.

1:15:03 I sent the FBI. They had a chart. Where was he standing? Do you know where he was standing on his truck? Oh yeah, see this little X?

1:15:17 That’s blue. X, yet. That’s where he was. I went back on the chart. I said, see this chart of the car with me and John in it?

1:15:27 Yeah. He was 75 feet in front of me. If he pulled out a gun, I would have jumped out of the car and I would have killed him. So ultimately, I think he was, what they all look at me. Four or five guys there.

1:15:54 Every woman won agreed with me. You know, looking at it that way, he’s right. That’s exactly where Sammy was. He’s got the gun, and he’s a backup shooter now. Side, this guy pulls out a gun, he’s finished.

1:16:10 So the cup was way in a way. What could I do? I can’t stop the, no one has heard the people. There’s heard of everything. He’s all along, he’s got a Christmas shopping with his wife.

1:16:22 He’s not on duty. So you know a hit like this, and you got to remember, Al Capone killed a bunch of Irish guys, and from, uh, not taking anything away from them. But then I made guys, they’re a mafia. They’re a Irish group, tough, tough group, no question about it. Um, Paul Castellano was the boss of all bosses at that time.

1:16:54 He was the boss of the commission and the boss of bosses. Paul Castellano alone, have a couple of Irish guys behind him. He’s got the whole commission behind him, because you can’t kill the boss. He’s connected in Italy. He had the Irish mob, the Westies, like this, real close.

1:17:19 He had the whole Gambino family. Got to remember, he was related to Carlo Gambino, their brother-in-laws, so when you’re taking on Paul Castellano, you’re taking on a humongous army, not a gang of Irish guys. They’re not taking nothing away from them. They thought they were tough, but there’s a difference. Taking this on was, I’m going to give you another example.

1:17:54 The whole f***ing Mafia was shaken up in the whole country. The whole thing was afraid of us. They were saying, oh my God, these guys are f***ing crazy. Look at this head. The Mafia.

1:18:14 I met the boss of Florida that was sent down by John after this. It was over. I wasn’t beyond the boss yet. I was, May, the captain. Want to trade?

1:18:26 I took all the title’s position at his request, and I was sent down, because there was an article that came out in the paper that the boss of Buffalo said, we find out that this was an unsanctioned hit. We’ll kill him. So I was sent down to talk. He owned the hotel in Florida. I was taken into the place with one guy who was going to introduce me to him.

1:18:57 We need that introduction, and I went to the mezzanine floor, or something like that. I got off the elevator, and there was guys standing all over the place, so I wouldn’t sit down with him. And he was talking, the boss, and he says, you know, I want to start off with this. I mean, after we met officially as him being a boss and me being a captain, that, you know, don’t believe in those papers. You don’t have to worry about me.

1:19:30 And I said, I’m down here to talk to you about a few other things, but that came up in conversation, and he’s not worried about you shooting him or killing him. If we were worried about that, me and you wouldn’t be talking right now. You would be dead. And he backed up in his chair, said, what I said, you heard me. Be dead.

1:19:59 We have a hundred shooters. You’re a boss, a Buffalo, better respected position. So I got to be honest with you, and I’m being honest. You would be dead. That’s when I went out to walk with his son into the water.

1:20:19 He backed up. We worked for, we were ferocious when we talked, when Franklin Chico was alive, before he was killed, uh, and John was there, and I was there in a meeting right after the head. We have to have fear. We have it on our side. We have to be ferocious.

1:20:44 We have to kill anybody and everybody who f***s with us in any way, shape, or form, or they’ll gobble us up. We can’t win. We’re fighting different groups in different countries. We can’t win. They lose that fear.

1:21:03 We lose. We all die. We kept that fear. We use that fear, that’s how we stand in power. You know, we lost some people, frankly.

1:21:16 Chico, who was a beyond the boss, right away, and we made John the boss. Frankly, she goes on the bus. I became a captain soon after that. I became, because he had a family. We lost him.

1:21:28 We lost another captain, and Lena. You know, it’s another guy want to buy a Giants bodyguard, Bobby Barrio. So we were losing games. We were in a war too, but the other side was doing hidden hits, and it starts because we would hate, and we had to keep that up. So this was nothing like Al Capone.

1:21:52 You didn’t face nothing, no backlash, no nothing. It was a great hit. He, he was a big name. He, you know, he still is. When I did artwork, I did a portrait of Al Capone when I was in prison, uh, and, uh, actually sell it on my website, but, uh, copies of it, and, uh, so this was.

1:22:19 The people don’t realize what the magnitude of this every family in the country and out of the country, or just this. This was it. The news didn’t put it that way. They did. I mean, this broke headlines all over the world, obviously, but the people still don’t realize the magnitude of that hit.

1:22:44 I was in three Mafia Awards. The first one is what I was associated in, the Colombo family, The Gallows and Profacci. Then it became the Gallows against Carmine Persico, who I was with, and Joe Colombo. I was involved in Philadelphia walk, and then the takeover of Castellano was my third one. Planned it.

1:23:09 I had Milwaukee walkie-talkie. I had a gun, and I immediately came up in rank, from acting captain to captain, to close the year, and a while later I became beyond the boss. And was it the right thing to do? In retrospect, when you look back at it, five years later, ten years later, 20 years later, was it the right thing to do? Was it the only move you could do at that time, to take out Castellano?

1:23:34 Yes. I think he was the best thing since sliced bread, but he wasn’t a thug. I know he was a racketeer. He was more of a business guy. A gangster is more of a nightmare.

1:23:52 That was more of a thug. At one meeting with Counselor Adam, it was 14, 16 people sitting at his table, and he said, in the Mafia, we have two kinds of people: racketeers, and there were millions and businesses in all kinds, and there’s gangsters, who were a little more thuggish. They do murders. They do things like that. He says it’s very, very rare that anyone in our life is true.

1:24:26 It’s against the anorexic. They’re all wrapped up in one. It’s, but it happens, but it’s wet, and we, we should be proud that we have one or two. He said, one is sitting right at our table, and he pointed, and that sent me the bullet. He’s both a racketeer.

1:24:47 There’s no doubt about it. My chest came out about three inches, or puffed up, such a compliment. It and with every heavyweight in the family at the table, and on the way out, I would joke with them. Hey, you’re just a record. Yeah, I hope you’re just a [expletive] thug.

1:25:07 I’m both. So it was crazy, but I mean, the life, it was taking him out. He made a lot of mistakes after that, in me thinking that he’s the best thing since I’ve split. He made a lot, a lot of stupid mistakes. Um, he didn’t recognize you know, if a guy was a gangster, he would, like, kind of put him on his side, and he was more interested in the racketeering part, and uh, and he made a lot of bad decisions with, you know, over money, without the families, rather than keeping it in the family.

1:25:49 There were guys who were broke. You could give it here, running the bread association. We all, we ran the bread association. He gave it to the Colombo family, and I was at a meeting when Franklin told him, Paul, we have a lot of guys who will grow. Why didn’t you give it to them?

1:26:10 Why would you give it to the Colombo family? Well, there’s a lot of relationships I got with them. Yeah, you’re making a lot of money with them, but nobody else is going to make no money. Now you give away something that was ours, and that’s a small thing, but it’s more of a hundred, aside from the fact that at the end, uh, John Gotti and Angelo and Gerio got caught on tapes. They were dealing drugs.

1:26:38 There was a rule: you deal drugs, you died. Yeah, they had all kinds of tapes, and they got all screwed up. They were going to get taken out by Paul. And uh, I sat with Frankie. They had answers for help, and uh, in the conversation, it was Frankie told me, I think it’s time to take Paul out and save John Gotti and his crew.

1:27:05 We can make him the boss. I wasn’t too happy about that. He said, I could be his. I’m the boss. He can’t be mine.

1:27:13 He’s got an eagle, like the Empire State Building, so, but we’ll be the power behind the throne, and let him run it if he acts the fool, which he does quite a bit. I give you my word, we’ll kill him. I’ll be the boss. She’ll be mine on the bus. There were some personal [expletive] he did with my family.

1:27:37 At that point, pull, I’m not going to get into it. It’s too far. It’s part, very personal to me. So I says, I’ll never forget that, but I don’t want it to be about revenge. I want it to be about the whole thing with taking out the boss of bosses.

1:27:56 I want to keep this as close, and all the other mistakes, taking out John and his whole crew, because they didn’t save a chance. Um, and a little personal thing I had. I guess that was icing on the cake. I put my hand out to Franken tea glasses. I’m on board at students right then.

1:28:21 He says, you’ve been into Mafia Awards, which the Colombo and Philadelphia are you playing this in? I’ll do the best I can. And uh, the resting session, and afterwards, you and John pretty much ran everything until you both were put in prison. Do you ever miss that relationship with John? Because the two of you together did things that no two other men maybe could do, and I heard once that when you heard that he passed, people asked you, oh, were you happy about that?

1:28:58 And you’re like, no, I was sad. I didn’t want to see him go that way, and he was, I think, cancer and emaciated, and you said no, it made me sad, even though he sold me out. I guess I’m asking, is do you ever miss that friendship you had with John? Well, like I told people in prison when they came to me. I was in prison.

1:29:19 They told me that, uh, he had passed, and uh, the cop said, look, you don’t care. I don’t know, you’re f***ing wrong. We were attached at the hip. You know, when you get together that close, we ate, drank, f***ed, and pissed together every minute of the day. They were trying to kill us.

1:29:44 They were killing people, and we were trying to kill them. Yeah, it’s hard to imagine, if anybody listening to this, how close you can become. I felt that way. I don’t think he did a hundred percent. He did until we got in trouble.

1:30:03 Um, so I wouldn’t want to see anybody die like he did in prison, like a dog with cancer, but I wish we were out, and I would shoot him in his f***ing head tomorrow, because he betrayed me like that. We were so tight. I did so much, man, when he was putting in prison. I bribed jurors. I threatened witnesses.

1:30:40 I kept risking myself to get him out and to keep him out, constantly, whoever he wanted dead, and told me to go, they died. That’s how I got so many [expletive] heads. So when you betray, you can love somebody to an enormous degree and be betrayed in the worst possible way. You can hate. I could, anyway, could hate as much as I can love.

1:31:11 It’s a, it’s a coin. It’s what side is it. I can love you with all my heart and soul. I will die for you. You betray me, I won’t die for you.

1:31:30 I will kill you. So there’s a, it’s a coin. Love and hate. There’s a lot of thin lines. You can go into people who are psychologists.

1:31:42 I have a woman working for me, Anna. She’s just about a psychologist. She’s almost finished with her schooling. You’re getting a degree, psychologist. She’s extremely smart.

1:31:56 Um, I’m on the show with another bullpen, um, and I, I have great conversations, and the conversations aren’t about killing, back and forth. It’s about husbands and wives and relationships. You know, there’s a thin line in in so many things in our lives, um, husbands, wives, children, so many things. So many rhymes with that. There’s that thin line.

1:32:27 It can go either way. Um, so I think I had that thin line with John. I can’t say I hated him. I, I really, I would be lying. It’s easy to say I hated him.

1:32:41 No, I didn’t. I really did. I loved him. We had a bond. We were cast at the hip.

1:32:50 Try to imagine how close you can get to a human being, whether it’s a man or a woman, and then being betrayed by that person. Everything in your body, my guts, everything came out of me when I was betrayed. He’ll go to prison for the rest of your life. Now, I was willing to go to prison for the rest of my life, but I wouldn’t be in that life to begin with. I was always willing to go.

1:33:17 I knew it would happen someday. I knew all my life, especially when I was in the Mafia, that I wouldn’t even die or go to prison, and I lived with that. I lived with that. It was easy for me to live with that. That’s what gave me no fear.

1:33:34 I’m gonna die. I know when is it gonna happen? I really don’t know, and I’m not going to worry about it. Whenever it happens, it happens. Same thing.

1:33:43 We’re going to prison, but being betrayed, and that’s why I’m gonna go. No, [expletive] that. That’s, you got the wrong guy. In other words, he was playing checkers while I was playing chess, right? And he lost.

1:33:59 Uh, Sammy, uh, we’ll probably, uh, end up doing another one of these. Maybe I’ll fly it to Arizona and actually sit down with you. But if we had to go through kind of that next period of your life, you know, you spend time with the feds, and you had amazing stories of what that was like. Moved out to Arizona, where I’m guessing you’re thinking, okay, this is, you know, the final and new chapter of my life, and then you get busted and go back in for another 17 years.

1:34:25 You corrected me, including going to supermax, and I’ve heard your stories about that prison. I mean, that’s some serious hard time. Um, what do you say about that period in your life? Or what do you tell people about what happened and what you learned? I’m a pretty smart guy.

1:34:44 I made stupid moves over there. It’s that what people think is not true. I’m not going to talk about that too much. I just did a serious documentary about it now. I Didn’t Do It.

1:35:02 Other people, a company from England, I don’t even know if I should mention their name, but it’s a very serious, good company from England, and they’ve been working on it real hard. I did all the filming. My people, my daughter, they filmed my son, me, other people got caught in cases, named cops, everybody. It looks like they did a great job. It was going to be coming out sometime in this 2023, uh, February, March, April, something like that, and uh, people are going to hear it.

1:35:42 It’s, I can’t really put that out, um, but I made really, really stupid mistakes, and it was blown up to be what it really wasn’t. I wasn’t really in it, but my son got caught up. Today my daughter got caught up with it. She really had nothing to do with my son. Had a little bit to do with it, and then my son was facing a lot of time with it.

1:36:08 My son-in-law was facing a lot of time with it, and uh, they wanted to make a deal, and when I asked the lawyers, what’s the deal? They want you. They want you when you cooperated with John. You testified. When you came out, you testified in eight, nine cases against the government with the defense, and they’re super pissed off at you, and they want you to pay the piper.

1:36:41 Down, and as long as they do the right thing with my son, my son-in-law, and people, I’m willing to take the weight. I’ll take the weight. But were your things you’re telling me, are they not even true? Do I gotta confess to that, Sammy? What’s the difference?

1:37:05 If you yeah, you gotta do that. You gotta admit to everything, even things you didn’t even do. That’s the deal. I said, what do I face if I do that? 12 on the low, 15 on the high.

1:37:27 My son was facing, he was arrested in the state, and the feds, like me, he was facing 45 years with this federal government. They had raised the stakes on him, and 25 years in the state. My son-in-law didn’t have the feds, but he had the state, and he was facing 25 years. I said, make a deal. We made the deal.

1:37:55 My son now would be sentenced to nine years, three months. Same thing with my son-in-law, and I would be sentenced later, low 12,550 in the guidelines. We made the deal, but it was sentenced. They changed it around and went for an upward departure, because I had a lenient sentence on my purse case. In the law, they can do that.

1:38:26 I couldn’t back out anymore, so I went to this up-with-departure hearing. I got blamed for everything under the sun. Um, I remember my lawyer asking one of those kids who flipped, and uh, my lawyer asked him, did Sammy have a bite? Us, it starts the most time. It is drugs, but it’s ecstasy.

1:38:57 It’s like marijuana. Ain’t heroin, it’s not cocaine. It’s Texas. It’s just [expletive] drug. It’s like a pot, and they, they put it in as, make it sound like what the [expletive] it is, but it’s a [expletive] drugs, so they asked the kid.

1:39:13 My lawyer said, did Sammy ever buy the drug? No. Did Sammy ever physically sell the drugs? No. Did Sammy ever go out with your kids to clubs at night, rave parties, any of these things?

1:39:39 No, my lawyer said in Oakland court, and what the [expletive] did he do? Well, I don’t know. I think he was the boss. Foreign drugs. I never sold drugs.

1:40:00 I never went out with them. The boss. All right, and that’s what I’m playing to, to do whatever. When they sentenced me, they went to the judge and they told the judge, the prosecutors, when Sammy got out of prison in ’95, ’96, um, he came to Arizona, he put a gun to his wife’s head, his daughter’s head, and his son’s head, and told them, go out and sell drugs, or I’ll kill you. Now you’ll see in this upcoming documentary what they say about it.

1:40:47 So are we even at that? And uh, that’s the furthest thing I would ever do, but I’ll leave that to the to the, to them. And I basically lost the, the upward departure hearing. Now, the one, remember, the judge who’s going to sentence me was told what I did with a gun to my wife, my daughter. How much I think my worst enemies in the mouth.

1:41:17 You know, I would never do that. But the judge apparently don’t know, and thinks that’s what he did. This guy’s a real low life. So when it came time for my sentence, 12 on the low, 15 high. She up with the part from the agreement, and gave me 20 years, feds, 100,000 fine, and lifetime supervised release.

1:41:49 Another thing that’s unheard of, not even for people who killed, and uh, that’s what I got. And I didn’t go to 16 or 17. I did 17 years, seven months, straight on the feds. The state gave me 19 years on that same plate, but they were running together, so I first got pitched in February of 2000, like State of Arizona, in January of 2001, the feds invite me on this mirror case, same exact case, mirror case, and in 2022, I get arrested again for an old cold case that supposedly I killed a cop with the Iceman, a whole nother story that I’m talking to producers and people that I can’t get into, and that they’ll see about her down the road as well.

1:43:04 I’d be that case, and I did 17 years, seven months. I completed my state time at the same time I came out in September, September 17th, I believe, of 2000, 2019 or 2017. 2017, yeah. And that’s how this whole thing came about, and now I’m talking to you, and I’m about to say adios motherf***er, because this thing, I think it’s got to stop at some point, and when you come down and see me, you better bring a little, some cannoli and a little bag of money. I appreciate the time, I appreciate the honesty, uh, and appreciate the realness in the media you produce, and just being here with me today.

1:44:10 Um, and yeah, I could talk to you for another six hours, and I’ll get, I’ll get my ass out to Arizona, and we will do a proper sit-down for sure. Uh, final question, Sammy. Like, you’re 77. You know what do you do in the next 10 years? You taking over media, social media, you’re making 20 more movies.

1:44:26 You’re gonna leave this world like a, a great place, a great memory, great energy. What’s your plans? Well, at uh, really, I, I’ve got plans on how I’m going to die, you know, and when I’m going to give it up, as soon as I meet a real good looking woman who’s gonna just kill me. That would have got it. Now the HR woman is going to come in and say, Sammy, here you go again.

1:44:57 Give me what you’re about. They tried to be a dollar if I every time I’m inappropriate, but I always hopefully appropriate. That’s gangster. Foreign. We’re going to wrap this up, but yeah, I would love it if you uh, gave us an adios motherf***er, because you’re known for that.

1:45:17 Um, but Sammy, thank you so much. Looking forward to your films, and um, yeah, like I said, let’s do this in person and finish it up someday, honestly, speaking. You’re easy to talk to. I like you, and I’m looking forward to having a meeting. We’ll have a glass of wine, a cup of coffee, whatever you want.

1:45:31 So until then, adios motherf***er. Cheers, Sammy. That’s it, folks. We’ll see you next time on London Real.