Patrick Mckeown - The Oxygen Advantage: How To Rethink The Way You Breathe

Full transcript: Patrick Mckeown on London Real

3:57 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Patrick McKeown on the world-renowned breathing expert, author and lecturer. Over the past 15 years you’ve trained thousands of people around the world with breathing techniques that lower stress levels, reduce overall anxiety and improve physical well-being.

4:16 You’re a student of the Buteyko breathing method from Moscow and your latest book, The Oxygen Advantage, aims to revolutionize your health and fitness using simple scientifically proven breathing techniques. Patrick, welcome to London Real. Thanks very much, Brian. Great having you here. You know, I was having dinner with Dr. Daniel Stickler and his amazing wife Micra a couple months ago after Daniel was on the show, and Micra couldn’t stop talking about you and your breathing techniques.

4:43 She’s a trained athlete, Special Forces, all sorts of stuff. And I think she’d spent a few days with you and she said, you gotta get Patrick on the show. I had been hearing about you over the last couple years and The Oxygen Advantage, so I really wanted to have you here today just to go deep on all these things that we don’t understand about breathing. Sure. So it’s great to have you here.

5:02 To be honest, five years ago somebody said on one of my shows that I was talking about like plant medicines in ayahuasca and they said, you know, breathing can get you to those states, and I was like, you know, you’re crazy. And honestly, I never thought breathing could ever do anything. And then I see you, you saw people like Wim Hof come onto the scene and all these different breathing techniques. And I think Patrick, people are starting to take breathing serious.

5:25 I think so. But I know most of your life you were banging on the door saying, everybody wake up, this is really serious stuff. It can affect your child development, your sleep, your health, your everything. But you spent a lot of your career trying to get people to wake up, right? Just to a large degree.

5:44 You know, and I had a motive here, because from it from a child into my teenage years, into my mid-twenties, I had chronic nasal obstruction. I was a chronic mouth breather and I had chronic asthma and if you have inflammation of the lungs, it’s not just isolated to the lungs because now since 2007 researchers have identified as one airway. So your nose, your throat, your lungs are all linked, and if there’s a problem with one, it can travel up to the other and vice versa.

6:13 And the thing about the nose is, if you have nasal obstruction, if you have a stuffy nose, you’re twice as likely to have a sleep problem. So here, as a kid, I was having asthma, I was caught for breath, because I was having asked my adult, so nasal obstruction because it’s very common data to go hand-in-hand, and because of that, then I was married, and then my sleep was impacted, and of course I’m breathing fast or per chest. I’m constantly in fight-or-flight response.

6:38 Now you send a child into school with that breathing pattern, and that child in primary school, I was bright, I was top of the class. Come secondary school, high school I dropped from the top of the class right down to the bottom. I was losing interest in school. In 1988 I left school altogether, and people probably shocked with that. Why is a kid at 14 years of age leaving school?

6:59 My parents were realists because they were seeing that if child doesn’t want to continue, and also the measurement of intelligence and success is not necessarily based on academic ability. Many people have high academic qualifications, high academic intelligence, and they have achieved very little creative people in tuition, and there’s other aspects of intelligence that is not taught through the educational system. I had a bit of drive with me, but I had poor health.

7:28 So, come make a long story short, I should, we went back to school a year later, and I drove myself through school, got into university, got into early college, and Dogma, which is pretty decent college to get into. I had to spend 10 hours a day studying. That’s related, so my motive is, it was my breathing that was holding me back. It wasn’t my intelligence. It was my chronic mouth breathing and I was going to doctors every three months.

7:53 I was in hospital a few times. Not one healthcare professional during that time says, Patrick, breathe through your nose. In 2000, in early two thousands, probably in 1998, 1999, I came across a newspaper article, and a newspaper article spoke about a Russian doctor, and he said two things. He says, breathe through your nose and you breathe like, and as a chronic mouth breather I was doing none of those things. I was breathing through my mouth I was often caught for breath and I had had fast noticeable breathing, not that you’re having an asthma attack all the time or a panic attack, but your breathing is in excess of what it should be.

8:29 And this is the crux of it. When I switch to nasal breathing, my sleep would, in two to three days, I woke more alert than I had in the previous 10 to 15 years. That’s not an exaggeration. 10 to 15 years. Yes.

8:44 Just from better sleep. Just from better sleep. And this, you know, even though I found it purely by accident, I actually taped up the first night, tape my mouth, and because my nose was so stuffy I was able to unblock it using Buteyko techniques, but I also had to get nasal dilator to open up my nose, so you can imagine the first night I had a nasal dilator on my nose, I tape on my mouth to force myself to breathe through my nose and it would took me a couple of days just to get hang of it.

9:08 Then I started waking up my alert. My wheezing reduced by about 50% in that week. Now this was driving me. I wanted to get it out there so I haven’t, no medications. All you did was for change my bra.

9:22 Do you think that you can change my breathing? You just said taped your mouth like that’s, like, it was casual, but most people are gonna be freaked out and saying, what you tape your mouth closed when you go to sleep? I’ve heard a few people mention that before, but us that is shocking to a lot of people, right? It’s huge, right? Anything.

9:37 And I’ve also taped your daughter’s mouth. Yes. I get into the kids stuff. Absolutely, right? Yes.

9:42 I feel like you walk around the neighborhood sneaking into people’s houses and taping their mouths, but it probably would make for a better… well, we’ve created a momentum here. Taping up the mouth now is becoming more mainstream. It’s not just in the fringes. I’ve heard, and if you’ve seen address products in the market, and we will have our own product coming on the market for children, because it’s always been the issue. I always wanted to get kids.

10:04 How do we get children breathing through their noses? If we let a child continue to married, it’s going to impact the craniofacial development. It’s going to result in malocclusion of the teeth, crooked teeth, because the mouth isn’t closed and the tongue isn’t resting on the roof of the mouth. We need a growing child to have their lips together to breathe through the nose both during wakefulness and during sleep, and the correct route to correct resting tongue posture have been in the roof of the mouth.

10:31 It’s the tongue and the roof of the mouth that exerts a pressure to drive the jaws forward on the face to make room for the airway. The mouth-breathing child, they don’t have the counteracting force of the tongue, and as a result their jaws are developed set back, and as a result their airway is compromised, and their airway isn’t compromised just during childhood. Their airway is compromised for the rest of their life. We talked about obstructive sleep apnea, and we talk about an epidemic that’s out there now.

10:59 43% of males aged between 50 and 70, 27% of females aged between 50 and 70, 26% of males aged between thirty and forty nine, and nine percent of females aged between thirty and forty nine have apnea, somewhat or sleep disorder breathing, and at high risk of obstructive sleep apnea. And that’s a European, Swiss, relatively recent study. Well, now could that be absolutely resolved? Yes. If we looked at breathing during childhood, and this is really where we want to, the crux of it, because it has been absolutely overlooked.

11:35 We know, studied, you know, statistics looking at children 25 to 50 percent of study children persistently mouth breathing, and if a child is mouth-breathing their sleep is impacted, and if their sleep is impacted, they have 40% chance of developing ADD, ADHD and or a learning disability. I think it’s all sleep related. Sleep and breathe and go together. What you’re breathing is off, your sleep is off. OK, what happened a hundred thousand years ago when we’re out hunter-gathering throughout the savannas?

12:04 Yes. Did we nose breathe then? Yes. And yes, how do we know that, and what would have made us more likely to nose? We know.

12:10 Better shape the face. And so that, so and just so people understand, literally the shape of your entire cranium, facial jaw, changes as a child if you don’t breathe or absolutely and sixty percent of the growth of the face is achieved by four years of age. So we have a very brief window of opportunity there. Ninety percent of the growth of the face is achieved by 12 years of age. So if you were to look at a study that came out on the Android halls about two years ago, and the researchers identified that they had really wide facial structures.

12:40 They had very large nostrils, and the researchers put down the large nostrils, not your just because they were nasal breathing during rest, but they were nasal breathing during physical exercise. Professor John Mew. Professor John Mew. He’s based here in London. He’s also an art anthropologist and he was also trained as an orthodontic surgeon.

13:01 He’s an orthodontist and he’s 90 years of age now, and he writes about 400 years ago here in the UK when they are inert and bodies from graves, from upper-middle class background, people who had access to sugar, they noticed that the craniofacial development was much and poorer. In other words, they had narrow facial structures, jaws that were set back and they had overcrowding of teeth. If you go into any Natural History Museum, you don’t see overcrowding of teeth.

13:30 Crooked teeth are a problem, and it’s not just an aesthetic problem, but it’s an airway problem, because the vast majority of kids who breathe through the RO open mouth, they will develop crooked teeth, and the reason that they have crooked teeth is because they don’t have the tongue resting in the roof of the mouth. Now I know traditional orthodontists would probably say that it’s down to genetics. It’s not down to genetics. This has changed remarkably in the last 50 to 100 years.

13:57 We don’t even have to go back 100 thousand years ago, you know, whether your leather sugar, I think diet has been one aspect of it, because something triggered this, because it’s not like the hunter-gatherers knew to walk around and didn’t have any tape. Yes, they probably didn’t. Say, we know nasal breathing is the right way. Yes, although maybe it was a mean, maybe they would watch people, and maybe it was something everyone did, and they just did it without thinking about it.

14:19 But what, what would trigger people? Doesn’t matter. Of things, one is tongue-tie. So, for instance, in midwives in 16th century France, when the infant was born, they used to open up the baby’s mouth and just check the string that holds the tongue to the floor of the mouth, and if it was too tight they had an extra-long fingernail. They just flipped it, and the reason they did that was because they wanted a tongue to move freely in the mouth, because the tongue was necessary for breastfeeding.

14:45 If that child, if their tongue was stuck to the floor of them out, that child couldn’t breastfeed. The child wouldn’t thrive, and back in the 16th century, child would probably die. So human beings, we’ve seen interventions like this. True. Ouch.

14:59 And if you’d look at a book written back in the 1870s called Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life by an American painter called George Catlin. He went and spent time with the North American Indians because he thought their traditions were dying out, so as an artist he wanted, chronic illness he wrote about the Native Americans where every time that the baby had the lips apart, the mother would go over to the baby and press the lips together, and he also spoke about the European settlers’ kids coming over, adults coming over, sleeping in their bags, mouths open, just breathing hard. So you know, it’s always being there, and I think food, especially, we’re eating very soft food now, which is not developing that the muscles of the face, lack of breastfeeding, and I know what use this and this isn’t.

15:45 I’m not blaming mothers here. Society has forced mothers to work because we’re all up to here, you know, in air all up to our neck and mortgages, so I really understand that this thing that the mom is often pressurized to go back into work to make sure that the family home is paid for. But breastfeeding is really important, not just for nutrition, because it’s breastfeeding that develops the muscles. It develops the muscles of the face, so the baby has good muscle tone, and with this stand that the baby is more likely to restore nasal breathing.

16:19 So there’s probably not just one factor, and you can’t isolate which factors cause mouth breathing, which don’t, but it can be addressed, and that’s the key. All right. So this is, I mean, you just shot a big old cannon ball across the bow of the world and said, wait a second, a lot of our problems could be because our children and we are breathing through our mouths and not our noses. That can affect like you said when you talk about your case, it’s a great point.

16:44 So again, you’ve got all this, you know, inflammation happening, your lungs going to your nose, then you’re lacking of sleep, you have anxiety, you send that kid into school and now you’ve got a dysfunctional student. Yes. And now that can ruin lives, and this can also sell, fulfill, and continue. Yes. so, so okay, a little bit back to your starting.

17:03 How did you figure all this stuff out? So, just maybe finishing okay. Well, you read the article about the Russian. Yeah, I said, close your mouth, breathe through your nose. Yes.

17:10 Tell us a bit more. And I had finished my masters, and I was in the corporate world at the time, and so my job as a kind of mid-20s was looking after staff. I was in middle management, and I always felt highly stressed, and I felt I didn’t like when I was working. It was an American multinational called Enterprise Rent-A-Car. I didn’t like the degree of control that was put on us as employees, that every move was kind of restricted.

17:37 That’s how I felt. I didn’t like the pressure that was put on me, and for me then to put that pressure down on the people underneath me, and I felt it was just absolutely being melt. So I hate it, and I absolutely hated going in to work with him on the morning, and this was a good thing because I took such a risk leaving that job, leaving the company car, leaving a good wage, and start breathing, and I went into the father-in-law and I told him I’m leaving.

18:05 I wasn’t married at the time, and I says he says, what are you going to do? And I says, I’m going to teach breathing exercise, and I’m going like that kind of, so I knew, Dan, you know, it took a risk, and maybe de nieve UT because I was only a kid, oh, my, my mid-twenties, that naivety, and also because I hated my previous job so much, it gave me the momentum and the drive to get out of there and to start. So I contacted the Russian embassy because I didn’t know anybody in Russia, and I couldn’t find Russian speaker in Ireland.

18:34 There was no immigration, and I earned very little back in the late 1990s, right? So I contacted Russian embassy and I asked could they track down the people in Moscow. So I made contact with them. I ended up flying over. I trained with them in Moscow, and I was accredited by the professor and Konstantin Buteyko, and then a compactor, and I started working primarily with people with asthma.

18:55 So we put it out to local newspaper, wrote a story. I had my first three clients. This was in 2002, and so I put my university degree absolutely to one side, and I started working with kids with asthma, and adults would ask me teaching them, you know, with the breathing exercises, and media really got behind it. I was so lucky. The Irish Independent wrote articles.

19:15 I was on television, and it’s just kind of bizarre. I had so many lucky breaks in that I was able to fulfill a passion, because I was also seeing the results, and this was the key, because too often, like most people, and you know, I know I’m probably going off-topic a bit, but I found a job that was really suited to me, and very few people find a job that suited to them. If you can find something that suited to you, it’s effortless, and it’s wonderful work, and also it’s so fulfilling, because we were seeing kids, we were seeing adults we were seeing them reaching their full potential.

19:49 And I’ll come back to it. Mouth-breathing no child who is mouth breathing and no adult who is mouth breathing is reaching their full potential, and many people will say yes, they have their mouths closed during the day. Do you have your mouth closed during sleep? Do you have your mouth closed during physical exercise, and where is the correct and resting posture? Because your tongue has got two places to be.

20:10 It’s either in the roof of the mouth, or it’s falling back into the throat. If your tongue is falling back into the throat, the airway is compromised. If the airway is compromised, your sleep is compromised, and if your sleep is compromised, your day is coming, most. Yeah, no, that’s true. And again, I’m wearing this oral ring because I’m trying to track my sleep better and I was just telling you yesterday I had a difficult day.

20:33 I was, it was hard day because I had lousy sleep the night before. I woke up at 4 in the morning, I couldn’t get back to sleep, and I was telling you I stopped drinking two years ago, but I felt like I was hungover. That, sure, I just felt compromised, cranky training was hard, and I was so, I know how high quality sleep is important. Yes. We’ve been hearing about sleep apnea the last few years.

20:53 I mean, this, 20 years ago I don’t know if anyone ever radar, but we know people are out there that are sometimes dangerously risking their life because they literally stop breathing in the middle of the night because of blockages. Sometimes if you’re overweight, not always. Yes. So, but what you’re saying is even the mouth breathing at night can be affecting everybody. Right?

21:11 Now my breathing is contributing to obstructive sleep apnea in a big way. Now, of course, doctors will say it’s oversimplified. Let’s look at how sleep medicine has changed since 2015. In 2002 we were talking about Noah’s breathing, and we were using breath hold time as a measurement of breathing pattern disorders. 28 Ian Meza, know who is a Harvard medical doctor, in looking at one of the phenotypes of obstructive sleep apnea.

21:35 Caloocan, he said, how do you measure loop gain? Can you use breath hold time, breath hold on breath full time, and an individual who was a low breath hold time during rest will have high loop gain during sleep, and what that means is that they have very unstable breathing during sleep. But I just gave a very simplified definition of obstructive sleep apnea. Okay, and then we have to talk about breath hold time. Sure.

21:56 Okay. obstructive sleep apnea is when the upper airway collapses during sleep, and it’s a battle that’s going on between your negative pressure created inspiration. So was your drawing air into the lungs? It’s causing a negative pressure in the throat, and this is causing the throat to come in, and the airway can collapse at four different places. One is the soft palate, one is the tongue falling back into the throat, one is the epiglottis, or one is detroit itself.

22:23 We really need to get these Airways, I later muscles working, and we do this by changing breathing patterns, because as I said at the start, it’s not an isolated airway. The airway muscles here are linked with the diaphragm, and your diaphragm is linked with your nose. You can’t get these airways or later muscles working effectively, because during wakefulness the airway dilator muscles. There’s 20 muscles in the throat. It’s a subset of those that have to maintain an open airway during wakefulness, our airways are kept open, but during sleep the muscles get lazy and the airway collapses.

22:56 Now individuals can hold, they can not hold their breath. They can stop breathing for about 90 seconds to two minutes, not even waking up out of it. They resume breathing with huge gasps of breath during the stopping of the breath, or blood pressures going up through the roof. They’re putting a lot of stress in their heart. Their blood oxygen saturation could go down to 60%.

23:17 Now, you need to get up Mount Everest to achieve that, and these individuals wake up in the morning and they can be doing that 20, 30, 40, 50 times an hour, every hour, every night, every week, every month, and it will absolutely certainly reduce life expectancy. It’s amazing to me you don’t wake up that you stop breathing, for like, like you said, 90 seconds or two minutes, and you’re still in a state. Yes. I mean, you will have sleep fragmentation, so you’re constantly being awoken from the deep earth, from the depth of sleep up to more shallow sleep, and when one phenotype of sleep apnea called arousal threshold, those individuals are light sleeping all the time, so they’re gonna wake up exhausted anyway, even if they don’t have huge events.

24:02 And this is where sleep medicine has changed, and we need really to get the research looking at breathing and sleep. But all too often the medical profession, they don’t want to know about breathing, and I think it’s partly because of egos, and I’m gonna put it out there, because medical is all about the science and the latest technology and discovering you know these new DNA and all of this stuff. And what’s breathing like? Well, I will say that breathing is going to be the solution, or part of the solution, to sleep.

24:33 It could be an oversimplification, but I’ve been joining the dots together, and what’s more, since 2002 we’ve seen, I’ve worked directly with about five, six, seven thousand people. You know, this isn’t just kind of stuff that’s coming out of my head. I’m working with kids, I’m working with adults all the time. I’ve seen Olympic athletes, their sleep proved you know, you mentioned Special Forces. We have some of our instructors who use this stuff for training with the SWAT, special weapons and tactics.

25:00 One of our instructors is training Navy SEALs. You know, there’s a reason that these guys now are bringing it in because it’s not just about sleep. It’s also about focus and about performance, and coming back to breath hold time. It ties in with both breathing, sleep, and stress. Okay, and real quickly, we had Matthew Walker in here who talks a lot about sleep, and he really said the same thing.

25:22 Look, the lack of sleep, it’s not only making you tired and making you cranky. It literally is shortening your life, and I think most don’t think that. Yes. We always had this, I sleep when I’m dead. You know, high performance people don’t sleep, but that’s all nonsense.

25:36 It’s almost looting. All the high performance people I know sleep a lot. Yes. And to sleep, not just quantity, quality yeah. And here’s the difference: people over 40 years of age were six times more likely to sleep in an open mouth, were six times more likely to spend at least 50% of our sleep time breathing both through the nose and through the mouth.

25:56 And it is really about the quality, and if you look at the books written on sleep, it’s all the emphasis on sleep hygiene, dope using your mobile phone, make sure your room is dark. You know, silent, all of this stuff. Don’t drink alcohol. Of course this stuff is all good, but they’re missing the elephant in the room. If your mouth is open, your tongue is falling into the airway.

26:16 The mandible, the lower jaw, is falling back into the airway. There’s a resistance to your breathing, that’s 2.5 times more breathing through your mouth during sleep. That resistance is creating turbulence to airflow. And also we need nasal breathing to harness nitric oxide, which is a signaling molecule to the upper airway, the later muscles. We need carbon dioxide, because carbon dioxide is not just the drive to breathe, even though people think we breathe to bring in oxygen.

26:43 We don’t actually breathe to get rid of excess CO2, but if we’re breathing hard and if we’re getting rid of too much carbon dioxide from the blood through the lungs, the brain doesn’t send a signal to these upper airway dilator muscles. We need nasal breathing, for diaphragmatic breathing, diaphragmatic breathing for increased lung volume, and increased lung volume for stiff of the pharyngeal airway. Just too many dots there, we have two, and that’s what I would love is if we had some research.

27:12 Let’s get individual nasal breathing. Let’s get their tongue resting in the roof, thumb out. Let’s get diaphragmatic breathing, slow breathing with a good breath hold time, and I will leave with this. Dr. Christian Guilleminault was a Stanford medical doctor in the 1970s. He coined the phrase obstructive sleep apnea.

27:30 He also developed the apnea-hypopnea index, which is a measurement of the severity of sleep disorder breathing. Since 2015 he’s been talking about the critical importance of restoring nasal breathing, and one of his quotes is, the only valid and complete correction of pediatric sleep disorder breathing is restoration of continuous nasal breathing during wakefulness and during sleep. And what’s more, thousands of kids are getting their adenoids removed.

27:59 They’re getting their tonsils removed because to help open up the airway. There is a 67% chance of relapse in two years unless nasal breathing is restored. now. Nine years ago, were, not nine years ago, six years ago, I put my daughter to adenoidectomy, tonsillectomy. If I was to do it again, I wouldn’t have done it.

28:19 I now know, because you learn as you from your mistakes. But there was no mention of days were breathing post-surgery. I had an operation on my nose in 1994, and a surgeon, the GERD surgeon who fixed my nose, he never told me to breathe through it. This is really a wake-up call. We need to start, you know, looking at kids who were going through a traumatic procedure with generalized anesthetic.

28:44 They’re coming back out into trolley, they’ve had their, you know, really traumatic, no, not just for the kids but as a parent. So I can talk about just first-hand from that. Why are we allowing these kids to persist with mouth breathing? That it’s only going to be short-term. Do you think in 50 years we’ll look back on this, is just like idiocy?

29:02 Like we used to smoke cigarettes and doctors we used to recommend it that we weren’t actually nasal breathing. The drivers here are going to be the general public, the general public, which is driving this, and I think what’s going to happen is that the general public will drive it. It takes 20 years for something to happen in fear of medicine, and you know, I’d written a few books, primarily on health. The emphasis was held asthma, anxiety, sleep, craniofacial development and children, and it’s just thinking, why aren’t okay dentists?

29:32 No, dentists have been brilliant. There’s a cohort of dentists and different, like a lot of, 50% of my time is kind of giving talk sleep disorder breathing to the dental profession but the medical profession of really light and it does take about 20 years there, so I’m hoping that the general public that they start noticing the difference, and it’s common sense, and I’ve had a debate in sleep congress’s with a professor of medicine in Chicago about two years ago, and he’s saying it doesn’t matter how people breathe. I said listener says, have you ever read a medical textbook?

30:05 Have you ever seen the functions of the nose? Do you actually know what the nose is doing on the face? How can you say that the nose, it doesn’t matter how you breathe, because this is not new stuff, Brian. 1988, Swift, a researcher in one of the papers which is written by an ENT from New Zealand called Dr. James Bartley. When people were forced post-surgery, their jaws were wired shut, they were forced to breathe through their nose.

30:30 When they were forced to breathe through their nose, the pressure of oxygen in the blood increased by 10%. Like, I can break down from just, you know, the benefits of nasal breathing, and it is none of this is new. Dr. Marrs Katli founded the Rhinologic Society in the 1970s. He said the human nose performs 30 functions in the human body. We are the only species on earth, with the exception of a dog, who persistently mark rates, and the dog mouth breathes to regulate body temperature, the racehorse, the cheetah, the elephant.

31:03 Any animal that’s healthy is nasal breathing animals, and human beings are the exception. That’s powerful stuff. I mean, I don’t know why we would expect doctors to be up on this stuff. I mean, they’re not up on sleep. They’re rarely up on nutrition.

31:18 They’re rarely up on any of this stuff because they’re not taught that. I mean, I think in the entire medical school, they’re not even, but one day they’re taught about sleep, you know, and so usually it’s other people on the cutting edge of these fields that are opening their eyes to these things, because also doctors, a lot of times, motivated by drugs, drug prescriptions, high margin procedures, all that stuff, and the last thing they want to do is tell each other their patients, get more sleep, breathe through your nose, goodbye. Yes, probably gonna lose all their other patients.

31:47 Yes. Well, we need a drastic health care change. We need a drastic change in the health care model, and maybe it’s gonna take when profit reduces that individuals and that the industry will change. Maybe it’s when their pockets are hurt, but this is where we need the awareness in the general public, and I feel for kids. I feel for the child, a four and five and six and seven year old kid, the child with rhinitis.

32:12 You know, allergic rhinitis is so common, 30% of the Western population, 16 million Americans, like we have in the UK, here, one of the highest rates of asthma in the world. You don’t just have a smell, you also have more likely to have rhinitis, 60% chance. Rhinitis is when your nose is stuffy, so like hay fever. Yeah, so hay fever would be allergic rhinitis, and if you have nasal stuffiness you have poor sleep, but your mouth is also driving breathing to the upper chest, and upper chest breathing and fast breathing is fight-or-flight.

32:43 So it’s not just about asthma, it’s not just about a stuffy nose. It’s about so much more else now, talk to me, your fellow Irishmen. Conor McGregor had a boxing match with Floyd Mayweather a couple years ago. Yes and you were watching his breathing, right? I was, because you’re into sports science.

33:00 You know, you’d spend a lot of time with athletes. What did you see in that fight? I think is a terrible breather. And you can see this, and this is how so easy it is to say, like, look, look, go on to any YouTube interview where he’s giving an interview to the press, not after a fight, because of course your breathing is going to be labored after a fight. I’m looking at his breathing during rest.

33:23 I’m saying fast and breathing from the chest. There’s no natural pauses post exhalation, and what that is telling me that his respiratory rate is too much. He’s breathing thoracically. His breathing is entirely inefficient. His oxygen uptake is going to be reduced.

33:40 His oxygen delivery is going to be reduced. He is not breathing optimally, and that’s going to have an impact in sports. Why the impact? This proportion of breathlessness, gassing out too soon, respiratory muscle fatigue, and also inadequate oxygen delivery to the muscles. Now, this is when the legs give out and if you watch that, if you remember that fight, it’s funny enough the commentator was really on the ball on the eighth or ninth round, he said, he’s really starting to mouth breathe hard.

34:08 Yeah, and then it was around afterwards, his legs started to go jelly. Now here’s the interesting thing: 50% of athletes are prone to respiratory muscle fatigue, because the dye from trumps everything. The body is there to make sure that respiration is maintained, because we can only laugh last without hair, you know, for few brief minutes. Now, if the Bruce Boche muscles are fatiguing, blood is diverted from the legs to feed the diaphragm, and you may see an athlete undergoing a hard and the next thing, as their legs are going from under them, is that due to a buildup of hydrogen ion, which also can be improved by breathing, or is it due to respiratory muscle fatigue?

34:45 His legs went from one dirham game over and you know, here again, and I contacted the coach, and I said, listen, assist Kavanagh? Yes, I sent a email John Kavanagh and I said, really, you’d want to look at Conor’s breathing here. No reply, and I think it’s because it’s only in certain cohorts. Now, in saying that, we’ve some Olympic athletes, we’ve some really high-level individuals who get this, but it hasn’t happened across. I think it’s the innovators.

35:13 Now, how many email John after this? Because there’s been a couple London Real guests that have spent some time with Conor, and we’ll try to get you in there. You really think it would make a difference on his performance? I would say without a doubt, there is no way that you have an athlete that’s breathing. If you have poor breathing patterns, dysfunctional breathing at rest, it cannot automatically correct itself during physical exercise.

35:33 It’s your everyday breathing that impacts your breathing during sports, and there’s so much you can do with the breath. The breath isn’t just this thing that’s used by hippies with the open sandals and the tree huggers. This is about performance. This is about resilience. This is about getting to the science and looking at the power of the breath.

35:54 And by the way, I’m not talking about going to some instructor, and the instructors telling you to take this big breath. That’s total nonsense. We’re talking about two different dimensions of breathing, or too often there’s such an emphasis placed on biomechanics of breathing, breathing using your diaphragm, taking these full breaths of air into your lungs. You know, you cannot sacrifice the biochemistry of the breath and concentrate on the biomechanics.

36:20 We need to have a balance between all three. Yes. I’m all for biomechanics. The diaphragm is very important. Diaphragm is linked with your emotions, diaphragm is linked with state, spinal stabilization for posture, for a movement, but also the biochemistry which determines the release of oxygen from the red blood cells to the cells.

36:42 How many times have we heard, take a deep breath, and the person takes this big breath. What’s the big breath doing? It’s blowing off carbon dioxide, and the loss of CO2 is causing hemoglobin to hold on to oxygen. We don’t want our red blood cells holding on to oxygen. We need our red blood cells to release oxygen.

37:03 How do the red blood cells release oxygen? They release it in the presence of carbon dioxide. As carbon dioxide increases, blood pH drops, and the affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen reduces. This was discovered in 1904. You, by changing your breathing, you can open up your blood vessels.

37:22 Seventy thousand miles of circulation. We can influence just, get the individual to really slow down there. Breath, focus on the airflow coming into the nose, focus on the airflow leaving the nose, and deliberately slowed down the breathing to the point of air hunger. Air hunger tells you that carbon dioxide is increasing in the blood, and as carbon dioxide is increasing in the blood, the blood vessels dilation, but also as carbon dioxide increases in the blood, hemoglobin releases oxygen.

37:52 So when we’re talking about breathing, it’s not about necessarily the individual who’s going into this studio, and you hear everybody in the room breathe. You shouldn’t hear anybody breathing during rest. If they’re breathing hard during rest, they’re getting rid of carbon dioxide, causing the blood vessels to constrict and are impeding the release of oxygen the red blood cells to hemoglobin. This is really where, you know, we need to start breaking down to different dimensions, and I would hope that professionals who were teaching yoga, Pilates, counseling, that they start looking at the different aspects of the breath.

38:29 Don’t just concentrate on one part of the breath and sacrifice the rest. Yeah. So the big deep breath can actually hurt you is what you’re saying? It’s causing it, it’s not increasing oxygen uptake in the blood. It’s not increasing oxygen delivery.

38:43 And if you continue taking that big deep breath, you will be stuck in that pattern of hyperventilation, chronic hyperventilation. Now, it’s often hidden, and you could have a normal, an individual who is breathing fairly normal during rest, but they go into physical exercise and they’re having disproportionate breathlessness, you know, we should be able to tolerate, and did a mark of a good level of fitness is an individual who can go for a run with light breathing. If you think of somebody who is very unwell, they walk and they get out of breath walking up a flight of stairs.

39:18 So there is a correlation between fitness and ventilation, and people who were in good states of health with good breathing, and they have light breathing. Okay. What do you think of Wim Hof? He’s been on the show a few years ago, and he’s known for his cold water therapy, which is great stuff, but also his breathing techniques. Yes, and that is rapid breathing I’ve done it with him, and it’s just, I’m probably messing up all my hemoglobin right now.

39:44 Right, but what do you think of that? I think it’s very interesting as a stressor. It’s primarily as a stressor, and Donna’s not going to, it also hyper oxygenate your blood as well. It’s, but that’s what we’re gonna talk about. Okay, okay, Andres if I, if we look at the oxygen, and the blood oxygen in the blood is carried two ways.

40:02 98% of your oxygen is carried bound by hemoglobin. Now at normal breathing, if we were to put a pulse oximeter on our blood is already fully saturated. Pulse oximeter, what is that? It’s a little device that you place in your nail, and it picks up the haemoglobin if it’s saturated by oxygen. So basically, you can see through yours, actually, there’s a little red light in and infrared light up.

40:24 I have one in my bag, and of course forgot that prop, but I never. Okay, and so we know that breathing at rest, that your blood is already almost fully saturated. That carries 98% of your oxygen. 2% of your oxygen is dissolved in the blood. Now, if you hyperventilate, you can increase the amount of oxygen dissolved in the blood, but you cannot increase the saturation of your hemoglobin.

40:49 More oxygen, the hyperventilation, therefore it’s not increasing oxygen uptake in the blood. It’s increasing a little that’s dissolved, but here’s what the hyperventilation is also doing. It’s getting rid of too much carbon dioxide. 30 seconds of our breathing will reduce CO2 in the blood by half. Every one millimeter drop of CO2 reduces blood flow to the brain by two percent.

41:12 Now, if you think of that, if we drop our CO2 from normal, a 40 millimeter of mercury pressure to 20, and every one millimeter drop is reducing blood flow to the brain by two percent. 30 seconds of hard breathing is reducing blood flow to the brain by up to 40 percent. So if you breathe hard for 30 seconds, it’s normal that you feel light-headed. That’s not because of hyper oxygenation. That’s because of a deficiency of oxygen, because the carotid arteries are constricting and the bond between oxygen and hemoglobin is tighter.

41:42 So on one hand, the Wim Hof technique, it is increasing the amount of oxygen dissolved in the blood. On the other hand, it’s causing a greater loss of carbon dioxide. This is causing, it’s a little bit technical, a left shift of what’s called the oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve, but basically, the harder you breathe, the more CO2 you get rid of, and the more the red blood cells are holding on to oxygen. So here, on one hand, we have increased oxygen dissolved in the blood, but on the other hand, hemoglobin is not releasing oxygen to the tissues, but hemoglobin carries 98% of your oxygen.

42:17 So really, I think we have to look at, and if you look at Kox’s paper on the Wim Hof method, you will see that the SpO2 across the top doesn’t increase from hyperventilation, and you do see that the carbon dioxide levels dramatically fall, and blood pH rose dramatically, increased. So the Wim Hof method is a short-term stressor, and I do think it has its benefits, because it’s increasing epinephrine and it’s increasing adrenaline, and it’s causing the body to make adaptations to change immune functioning, that the immune system can be targeted. True.

42:51 Hype. True short-term hyperventilation, and this could play a really good role in conditions of autoimmune disease, because just which is the success he’s had. Right? Yes. Nathan studies at the universities in Holland about correct.

43:04 So there’s absolutely benefits to it. I am going to say it’s not going to suit everybody. If you hyperventilate for two to three minutes, you can have a natural cessation and natural apnea as a result of that. Your blood oxygen saturations can drop so low, and you have to be careful and it’s not just about, because, like, I’m playing with the breath all the time. Three months ago we had a guy doing the hyperventilation.

43:30 We had him, then he was hyperventilating. Didn’t respond to three minutes no response. Slapping his face, no response. So there, we really need to, you know, and I don’t have to brought the blood is dropping in the brain. There’s absolutely, okay, so the hyperventilation, safe for the short period of time, it has got rid of so much carbon dioxide.

43:52 Carbon dioxide is to drive to breathe, so the brain will only send a message to breathe when carbon dioxide climbs back up to that threshold, but if you’ve got rid of so much CO2 that your CO2 is down here, the brain isn’t going to send any signal to breathe, so as a result you will naturally stop breathing for such a long period of time, and during that time your blood oxygen saturation will drop because your cells are taking oxygen from the blood, but you’ve stopped breathing, so you’re not replenishing oxygen in the blood, did the blood oxygen saturation can drop to the SpO2 can drop down to 40 or 50 percent. This doesn’t happen on earth. Even if you were at Mount Everest, you wouldn’t drop your blood oxygen saturation down that low.

44:37 So I would be careful, potentially dangerous, and you’ve seen Wim come out, come out, and say don’t do the water techniques with the breathing tech to mop. So if anyone’s listening at make sure you don’t. Yes, because you know, one of gjokaj named Joshua it was one of the guys that was on to Tim Ferriss’ podcast early on, and Josh was, he was in that movie Searching for Bobby Fischer. One of the, he was like a chess problem. Yes, yes.

45:02 And he was swimming in a New York City Athletic Club. He’s a very accomplished swimmer, but he was doing on his breathing techniques, he basically passed out on the bottom of the pool, and he was there for minutes, and it was amazing that he didn’t actually take water in. He let, kept his mouth closed for some reason. Maybe he was, but he stopped breathing. Yeah, so because again, you know, if you hyperventilate before getting into a pool, you’re getting rid of your alarm to breathe, so you’re underwater, you feel absolutely no sensation to breathe, because your CO2 levels have been depleted.

45:31 Right? It’s not about the CO2 at this point. Your oxygen levels are also dropping, and if you have underwater blackout, there’s no warning. You’re conscious, you’re out, and if you’re out underwater, that’s a big problem. People have died.

45:45 You know, so I would say the hyperventilation doing it on land, very good as a stressor, forcing the body to make adaptations, gives you a good idea of the power of the breath, but not underwater. Now we do breath Tolan, but we do breath holding that, and I think it’s really good because it’s forcing the body to make adaptations. Now, when we normally do a breath hold, we have the individual, they’re walking, jogging, and then I’ll have them take a breath in through the nose, breathe out through the nose, and they pinch their nose, and we also are monitoring their blood oxygen saturation, and we want to drop them down to about 85 percent, which is severe hypoxia.

46:23 But the difference between the Wim Hof technique and the Oxygen Advantage in it, so we always get the question. Wim Hof technique is a hypoxic, hypocapnic approach, low O2 to low CO2. Oxygen advantages, low to high CO2. Now, what happens when you do low to and high CO2? Well, if you deprive the muscle of oxygen short term, the hydrogen ion coming from the muscle doesn’t get oxidized because there’s not sufficient oxygen.

46:53 If it gets oxidized, it forms water, so instead, in a deficiency of oxygen, that hydrogen ion associates with pyruvic acid. That in turn forms lactic acid. Lactic acid then will dissociate into hydrogen ion – carbon dioxide at the same time as increasing during the breath hold and weaken further increased hydrogen ion and bicarbonate so we have a hydrogen ion from their low oxygen. We have a hydrogen ion from the high CO2, so we’re disturbing the blood acid-base balance.

47:23 We’re stimulating anaerobic glycolysis. This then is forcing the body to increase the buffering capacity, probably inside in the muscle compartment, so therefore the hydrogen ions and CO2 that’s released from the muscle is released far more slowly so there’s huge adaptations that you can do with simple breath hold techniques if you want to challenge the body, because you can disturb, you can disturb home your status, and use, you can dislike incredibly, if you were to compare this to high-intensity interval training, which athletes do to stimulate anaerobic glycolysis, in terms of the blood oxygen level, no comparison. Absolutely really, and I do, I love high intensity aerobic training, so you do this, you people, they’re running, they breathe in through the nose, breathe out the nose, and then hold the nose while they continue running.

48:11 Yes, yes, and how long do they hold it for? Okay, so we would start them off, say walking, so they’re walking, and I have to take a normal breath in through the nose, normal breath out, pinch to nose, hold a nose, and then as the air hunger progresses I have them go faster, so we go from a walk, fast walk, jog, run, sprint, and keep going until the intensity gets pretty strong. You feel your breathing muscles contracting, you feel a stronger hunger. You have your built, your pulse oximetry on you know, and at the end of it, then when the air hunger gets fairly strong, let go but minimize your breathing for six breaths.

48:46 Now, the reason that I have the minimal breathing for six breaths is because I want to prolong the hypoxic and hypercapnic response, and then after about 16 to 20 seconds you see the change in your pulse oximetry, so this is breathing. I just go small. I go, you go small breaths that you’re trying, you don’t want to go, you do. Of course I like, absolutely, my breathing is rest of my life, and mouth is for eating, for drinking, and for speaking, and it’s absolutely coming in through the nose, and we haven’t even discussed what happens when you do physical exercise breathing through the nose.

49:20 That’s another story, but in terms of the disturbance to the homeostatic. An example, there was a paper published 2018 by a French researcher called Warrants, and he got 35 professional rugby union athletes from Australia during competitive season. These are at the top of their game. He trained them for four weeks and did the same exercises what we’re doing, repeated sprint ability, normal breath in out, pinch nose, and sprint 440 meters with your breath held.

49:50 30 second recovery. You do it again. 30 second recovery. You do it again. You do seven reps twice a week, and then he measured their repeated sprint ability four weeks later.

50:02 It had increased from nine to fourteen point seven now, normally if you’re working with professional athletes, if you can get a fraction of a percent, at one percent, it’s a huge gain here, to increase from nine to fourteen point seven, and repeated sprint ability is a very good performance indicator for team sports, any team sports: soccer, basketball, ice hockey, American football, rugby, Gaelic football, curling, and it measures the athlete’s ability to do an all-out effort followed by a very brief recovery before they can do an all-out effort again, and what’s more, high-intensity interval training was dropped in that session, and a control group who were doing normal training, no change. So I think by exploring the power of the breath even in a performance, looking at what you can do when you do breath holding to force the body to make adaptations.

50:57 The Wim Hof technique, I have to say he’s really done a great job putting it out there, because he’s made people aware of breath. Yes, yes, that helps. Yes, of course, right, absolutely, and I’m thankful for that, and we do have some similarities with the Wim Hof technique. Do your aspect that I always want to do is I want to address functional breathing patterns it’s, we challenge the body, we force adaptations, we, you know, we’re, we’re simulating an altitude of about four to five thousand meters high.

51:27 We can do it very easily, and we do it safely, but it’s not just about doing the extreme rattling. We also want to get every, they breathing good as well. Okay, that makes sense, and yeah, I love Wim stuff, and I practiced it, and I do it usually every weekend after I jump into a cold pond. I don’t do it in the water, but yeah, it does something, that stressor, it gets me in a state of mind, but now it’s nice to know that I’m not hyper oxygenated, because actually that’s what I used to tell people, and that was wrong and now I understand what’s going on, and now that makes sense that people have passed out and that kind of thing well, it’s, we haven’t fully… years.

51:58 It’s, you know, that thing about the hyper oxygenation, you will be increasing the blood pressure of oxygen dissolved in the blood, and that will release because of diffusion, you will release oxygen to the cells, but you’ve got an ash here that hemoglobin is holding on to an to oxygen so strongly, and even during the breath holding it doesn’t recover, so you really have a drop, a major drop of oxygen delivery here, and you will have some increase of oxygen delivery here. Okay, so that’s what it’s, now that makes sense, and you know, you need these athletes, these, these rugby players. They would do the 40 meter sprint, and then what would they do?

52:35 What were they holding their breath? Yeah so during the 40 meter sprint, so they take another breath, and roll their breath in, normal breath out, pinch the nose right, sprint for 40 meters, the nose pinched with their nose pinch, and then resume normal breathing, and for 30 seconds have normal breathing, and we even did it at the weekend, and you know, the last five seconds I count down in five four, three, two, one, and again, normally they’re normal breath, a pinch holds, and then you do as many as you can do. Twe can’t do it anymore.

53:04 Well, okay, that was the guys were doing, they were doing nine, and then they got to 14. Yeah, but that was in the test, so they measured in pre-trial, and the maximum number of sprints that they could do before exhaustion was nine. Right, okay. Four weeks later, the maximum number of sprints they could do before exhaustion was fourteen point seven, but in the actual set itself, and when I’m working with athletes, I don’t follow the exact protocol of the paper.

53:28 It’s very taxing. Yeah, so what I’m doing is I start you guys off five repetitions, and we do it every second day, and a week later we do six repetitions per set every second day, and a week later seven reps, and a week later eight reps. So we do the same amount of reps, but I’ve split it up because I was working with guys, and I was looking at their blood oxygen saturation, and they were dropping down to 67%. Less, oh my god, these guys have gone blue. Come here.

53:57 So, so I said I’ll have to go a bit easier. So I held it back a little bit, because I would sooner have conditioned the body incrementally over time as opposed to just get an individual and just pushing through the loops. I want to push guys to the loots, but I want to do it, that’s challenging, but not to the point of extremity. Okay, what about these masks that you see athletes wearing? They look like the guy from the Batman saying, and they’re like restrictive breathing masks.

54:25 No, I’ve ever seen, and they look almost like a scuba thing on your mouth and they restrict. Yes, I guess mouth breathing. Okay, I guess I should guess what you’re gonna say. Interesting thing. Okay, okay.

54:34 The thing about the masks is, for Nick first came out in 2012, 2013. Yeah. The whole premise is that they’re simulating altitude training. They don’t. Okay, I bought him a set of tired, could tell you that, right, and but I had to test it out for myself.

54:49 I bought the masks. I would be on a treadmill. I’m having my pulse oximetry on. I’m wearing the mask my blood oxygen saturation dropping down to about 93 percent, not hypoxia. So the mask, wearing the mask by itself, is pooling carbon dioxide, so it’s very much a hypercapnic training now.

55:07 It is actually very good to expose the body to high CO2 because it’s heist, it’s CO2, which is the drive to breathe. Okay, so if you expose your body to higher pressure of carbon dioxide, this is forcing adaptations in the brain that your body is better able to cope with high CO2, and therefore your breathing and ventilation is going to be less, so the mask is doing two things. One is it’s pooling carbon dioxide, but the other is its resistance to breathing.

55:36 Now I’ll show you my own mask, and I talked about it this way. Okay, and so with this we use masks, and we use them with the techniques, and the whole premise is yeah, it was looked like like Batman or like a girl, so we have a Bane. Knows anything about man, right? Okay, so just two straps in terms of us, and literally you put the mask on to the face. Okay, real home.

56:03 Do you look like being Hollywood? Okay and your nose breathing. Mmm, nose brain. Of course we never mouth breathe, right? Okay, right now there’s a valve here, and this valve is very restrictive, and it’s designed to pool both carbon dioxide inside in the volume of the mask, but these are actually to do your physical exercise through the nose, and I better talk about why in a second, but with the mask wall, so we do breath-holding and we do simulate altitude training.

56:32 Okay, so I do a combination. The mask is tough, like we had guys at the weekender and using the mask, and you know, it’s it’s, it’s tough going, but this is where I need people to be persistent, because the trick that’s the training load. Okay, and you know, you could say to the guys, well, I don’t need to use a mask, okay, let’s say if you don’t want to use a mask, start doing your physical exercise breathing through your nose, your nose is imposing a resistance to your breathing that’s two to three times that of breathing out, and by imposing resistance to your breathing you’re not going to get rid of carbon dioxide as quickly, so you are going to feel more of an air hunger.

57:10 So if you do physical exercise with your mouth closed, you’ll feel more of an air shortage. This is good because what it’s doing is its increasing CO2 in the blood, and over a period of time will force the body to make adaptations that the body can cope better with the higher CO2 levels. How much time, month six to eight weeks. I would say definitely eight weeks. Now, there was a paper by professor from one of the universities in the state’s Dalam Deall A.M., and he did a really interesting study, was published last year.

57:42 He got a group of 10 athletes. 10, I’m not sure if they’re at liter, recreational, and he trained them for six months nasal breathing and then he decided to measure them after the adaptations had taken place. See, there are a few papers to get a group of people and they say, okay, I’m gonna test you now exercising which are my open, and now I’m going to test you exercising with the mouth closed, but it’s a completely unfair test because no adaptations have taken place.

58:10 Okay, what Darwin did was he trained them specifically for nose breathing for six months, and he asked what happens when you breathe exclusively through the nose for a period of six months what adaptations take place in the body? Here’s a couple. One is their tolerance of CO2 increased dramatically from 40 millimeters of mercury pressure to 44 millimeters of mercury. This is good because the air hunger was reducing. In other words, it was very tough at the start.

58:38 You’re feeling extreme air hunger. You keep doing your physical exercise with the mouth closed. The air hunger diminishes, so your ability to go harder, you know, is much better. Economically, there was 22% less ventilation. So when they put them on, they tested them using a GXT, which is a max, maximum test.

58:57 They had the athletes who are nasal breathing, who were trained, had 22% less breathing. They could achieve the same work rate intensity, which have 22% less breathing. That’s a huge saving, because there’s a cost associated with am supporting the respiratory muscles, and I would say for a knee endurance on fish it’s vitally important. Look at that study and start breaking it down. Yes.

59:23 It’s tougher at the start, and it’s the same premise of the mask. Like we know with the mask that your CO2 can increase to about 55 millimeters of mercury pressure. That’s high. With nasal breathing it’s probably coming up to 44, 45. That also is very, very beneficial.

59:39 So the mask and the nose are similar in terms of a hypercapnia response, exposing the body to high CO2, and CO2 is the drive to breathe. So if you can force your body to cope at higher CO2 levels, your breathing is lighter now. If your breathing is lighter, you’re not wasting as much energy supporting the breathing muscles. As we sit here, 2 to 3% of our oxygen consumption is going to support our breathing muscles. If we do moderate exercise, it’s about 6%.

1:00:10 If we do fairly intense exercise, it’s 10%, and if we do maximum exercise it’s 13 to 15%. That’s only to support the breathing muscles. Your breathing muscles, that demands on them is incredible. You know, we think of the lungs we never really give it the credit. If you have a not dish going at a fairly decent pace, that athlete can be taking a hundred to 150 liters of air per minute.

1:00:38 That’s what the lungs are capable of handling, and we’re expecting the lungs to be able to distribute oxygen adequately from the lungs into the blood, and we’re expecting the blood to be able to release this oxygen adequately to the tissues, and that’s where we want to refine and Xuan breathing to increase oxygen uptake, but also to reduce ventilation, because as indolence paper, if you can breathe 22% lighter, you’re far more economical, and you’re going to be better in terms of endurance. Okay, so anybody doing Iron Man’s or in God’s others, click into this. He’s a Martin.

1:01:17 Hi, I’m Martin, and here’s another aspect about the practice I thought there was a guy that just recently broke the two hour marathon. I was wondering if you watched those guys breathe? No, and you know, it’s, it’s quite probable that he has his mouth open, maybe, and like the Tarahumara, who are really renowned for being able to do alter distances, Heath, runners from South America. South America, okay and in terms of their ability to do it, they have been described as innate nasal breathers during their running, but it makes sense, because if we think after the lungs itself, the concentration of blood is in the lower lobes of the lungs, but if you’re mouth breathing during exercise, you’re ventilating the upper regions.

1:02:00 So there’s a mismatch here, and this is going to reduce what’s called ventilation-perfusion. If you breathe through your nose, you’re carrying the air deeper into the lungs, and oxygen transfer can take place into the blood easier. But also, as you breathe through your nose, and I have my nose, but me, I never go anywhere without this never gonna read out of your nose, right? No, there’s a gas called nitric oxide that’s released into the nasal cavity. Okay yeah, I’ve heard about this.

1:02:26 So true. Laird Hamilton, the big wave surfer, on Joe Rogan’s show, and he’s big into the nasal breathing. It, he does also, it’s a really weird stuff. Like, his brilliance carries weights underwater in his pool. I want to go to Maui, and with him I’ve done it.

1:02:38 It’s, yeah, yeah, because I’m there at their advisor for breathing. Oh wow, so I do the training with them. So this is, we’re using the same idea okay, it’s pretty brutal now. So for a non-athlete like me, it’s absolutely shocking, but the only thing I was up, I would tell you, I was dreading it coming up. It was coming up in July of this year, Ness, and, geez, it’s like, I don’t mind any of this stuff, but you know, it’s really, really tough, and afterwards you’re just feeling, it’s, it’s amazing.

1:03:08 So where you feel that kind of release, yeah, you know, the apprehension beforehand, and then the release. You’re also worried about drowning. No, because they have a Navy SEALs guy there. Okay, so there was a guy called Jeff the Frogman. Okay, and he’s looking at you, watching you the whole time.

1:03:22 Yeah, still, that’s an extra, a panic element for some people, and this is where it’s mind over matter, right? Because it’s all about surrendering, like, eyespots, or one thing working with them in terms of that. You’re surrendering to the cold, but when you go down, and it’s fair, it’s fairly deep. It’s probably 16, 20 feet deep. I can’t remember exactly.

1:03:42 Yeah, so you’re going down with weights, and you’re walking across the pool with the weights, and then you’re supposed to come up to your end with the weights, right? And while your CO2 levels are going up and up and up. Yes, and the tolerance to breathe, so you’re really feeling you know that hunger to breathe. Now you can cope with it. So there’s a psychological thing and there’s a physiological thing going on here as well.

1:04:04 So it’s very interesting, and I think, large, you know, when I see, and I’m doing the exercises, like we’re doing the exercises, Anissina are doing the pulse oximetry. Everybody is pushing themselves fairly much, and he is doing it to a totally different level. He dropped down to 50% SpO2 I have never done it. I have never seen it done with anybody without having to hyperventilate. So he’d, it’s easy to do it if you hyperventilate beforehand, because you get rid of so much CO2.

1:04:33 Yeah, so you can hold your breath for so much longer to drop your blood oxygen saturation. Heat it int hyperventilation, so his tolerance is just through the roof, and but that’s the kind of individual here. So it was very, very interesting stuff. Okay, and he always talks about the nitric oxide the game’s release in your nose, but go ahead and show us, you know, so here is the nasal cavity. Now when we’re talking about the size of the nasal cavity, we always consider, you put the tongue into the roof of your mouth and drag your tongue along the roof of the mouth.

1:05:02 Mm-hmm, until you feel the soft palate at the back. So the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose. Okay, so most people will consider that the nose is just this. This is about 20%, so your nasal cavity is going all the way back. Yes.

1:05:16 Okay, and that’s why it looks so big there. Exactly. So the note the air that’s coming in here, nitric oxide is released into the nasal cavity where rat it’s released. I don’t think it’s fully understood. Okay, it was only discovered in the human nose in 1991, while the night, nitric oxide, nitric oxide is released in your nose.

1:05:35 Even raise the room energy. Well, it’s getting released continuously. Okay but the key is to breathe through the nose so that you’re capturing nitric oxide. Okay, their concentrations of nitric oxide through the nose are 50 to 200 parts per billion. The concentration of nitric oxide through the mouth, ten parts.

1:05:53 So there’s no comparison. Now, so if you’re breathing through your nose, you’re carrying this nitric oxide into the lungs, a nitric oxide redistributes the blood. Right, the lungs, nitric oxide helps to open up the airways. Nitric oxide sterilizes the incoming air. And you know, if we were to consider not just a normal individual, there’s a benefit for anybody breathing through their nose during physical exercise.

1:06:17 Number one, increased oxygen diffusion, because your breathing is slower, so you’re giving enough time for oxygen to diffuse from the lungs into the blood. Number two, increased CO2 in the blood with nasal breathing, because of the resistance to breathing, and it’s the increased CO2 which will make sure that more oxygen gets delivered from the red blood cells to the cells, to the muscles, so you can stay aerobically for longer. Number three, nasal breathing is protecting the airways.

1:06:48 How many people have exercise-induced bronchospasm en’t all of that mouth breathing, you’re drying out the entire mouth, the throat, the lungs. if moisture is sucked from the airways, that causes inflammation. Number four, dehydration. You lose 42 percent greater water by breathing in and out through the mouth, and also a dry mouth is more conducive to inflammation of the gums and dental cavities. Do dentists looking inside the mouths of long-distance runners see a greater instance of tooth decay and dental problems, not by necessarily high sugar containing sports drinks, but because of the dry mouth, which is impacting their dental health.

1:07:40 So nasal breathing is just one of those gases, and it also plays a role in sleep, you know, because here you don’t want this airway collapsing, the upper airway, and it’s not fully understood. Even 2016 researchers, the full benefits of nasal breathing is not fully understood. Now when I have to know, is I going to talk about kids for a second? Okay, kids version, large adenoids, enlarged adenoids, ours when this lymphatic tissue here is swollen, and as a result the child isn’t able to breathe through the nose.

1:08:10 But enlarged adenoids are relative to the size of the airway. If it child is enlarged adenoids, they don’t just have enlarged adenoids. It’s likely that they have a small airway, and this is where, if we are to address obstructive sleep apnea, we have to start when the kid is this age, and the best way to start is getting the child breathing through the nose with the tongue resting in the roof of the mouth, but also the assistance of a dentist or an orthodontist who has got a good depth of knowledge in functional development of the face.

1:08:45 Because if we can get the child breathing through the nose, and we give them exercise, and I’ll show you how to decongest the nose, and it’s very easy, and yeah, but get to child breathing through the nose and getting the airway developed, then the child will get away, and possibly can, can get away, that they don’t have to have an adenoidectomy, right? Because if we get breathing through the nose to harness nitric oxide. Nitric oxide, by sterilizing and conditioning the air, may help, and we’ve seen it happen in practice.

1:09:15 We don’t fully know what’s going on, but I would say to parents that really, which are children, and a large adenoids and rhinitis is common, really. encourage the children to embark on breathing practices. Now we’ve put on their children’s, a children’s course online about two years ago for free, so there’s no cost. I put a lot of the videos up in YouTube. The children can sit down just look at the YouTube videos, how to decongest the nose, and my goal next year is to do a complete program for kids.

1:09:44 Absolutely free. We’re not even going to ask for your email address. Nothing, so there’s no obligation, and because I think we can’t just allow this to continue. This is, it’s, it’s a car crash waiting to happen. Okay, and your daughter, you used to tape her mouth.

1:10:01 I still do I can’t even get… I can’t even cut my kids’ hair. Like, the other night, two days ago, I have to go in when my son Kayden is sleeping to cut his hair, and literally, I’m going with the shears, and I shear until he sticks his hands on his head, and he starts complaining, because he was not very Wyant normally. So how would I get a kid like that to breathe through his nose? You have to do it yourself.

1:10:21 Okay, so what I was doing is like I’ve been taping my mouth ever since I stayed no hotel last night, and I tape my mouth up, and we use a particular different tape with children, and we don’t want to cover the lips with the child. So we have a tape, and we’re still kind of in the design of it. It will be called my old tape, and basically it’s a tape that’s stretchable that goes around them out. Okay, so I, you know, I have to confess, like we have been getting children, and my own daughter, and we’ve been using em tape.

1:10:54 Okay, we’ll take this, this tape is just no good. This is just out from a local chemist. Okay, so it’s micropore tape. Okay, and we fold a table, either sides, you pick this up for about two pound or two dollars or whatever. Okay, micropore, micropore paper tape it’s hypoallergenic.

1:11:08 Abbi decide. Okay, you dry your lips. I’m going to do this tonight, and boom. Mmm, I definitely gotta get one of these on my wife so just like that. BAM.

1:11:22 Yes. Now it can take a little bit of getting used to. It’s not just about getting somebody. Now if the person is nasal obstruction, I’ll show you the exercise to help open up the nose. Okay, so you know, what I would say is just for the first couple of days, really could start breathing through your nose during the day.

1:11:37 Okay, to make sure you’re comfortable. We’re breathing through your nose, either stolen to tape somebody willy-nilly. Like when somebody comes in to us, we teach them the breathing exercises to get their breathing restored right, and then it’s easier to wear the tape, because if you don’t change your breathing patterns, if you put on the tape, you could feel totally suffocated. Now you’re probably just end up ripping it off. So it’s fine.

1:11:57 So coming back to my daughter. Yeah, when she was three, and the reason that I was doing is because I know that if she continues mouth breathing, and she is my genetics, which are not good in terms of the craniofacial element. I’m, she in a very high narrow palate. She’s a small airway. You know, she’s a narrow mouth.

1:12:15 She’s missing one, she’s got two, to Genesis and so I know her airway is something that we really have to work with, and I was having her taped, which is three years of age, but I had her in the bed beside me, and I have to confess, I didn’t get a night’s sleep, and because I was conscious and were breathing through the entire time. Now we’ve kept witih SHhhh. She’s 9 years of age now, and she ceases as absolutely natural, and the difference is, if you’re sleeping with your mouth open, you’re not getting that quality of sleep.

1:12:47 You can get all of the quantity in the world, but it’s really about getting the quality, and waking up alert. Like, to wake up, I’d say 5 o’clock in the morning, and you have the capacity to concentrate, to hold your attention and to read complex material. That’s a good night’s sleep, not somebody who wakes up in the morning and two, three cups of coffee later they’re just starting to recover, you know, and also it’s about the resilience. That if your sleep is good during the day, you have the resilience to do whatever you need.

1:13:20 Sorry, if your sleep is good during sleep, you have the resilience to do whatever you need during the day. So we’ve thousands of people taping up, and, and yeah, like where the children was always that one thing I was always concerned and you know, we had different ways of bringing the tape underneath the chin, and just because we want to restore nasal breathing, so hopefully, and we’ve been sting it now for the last three to four months, and we’ll have it out in the next few weeks. Why don’t you want to tape their lips?

1:13:49 The children, just if there was a risk of a child vomiting during sleep. Okay, right, and if they had to tape, on right, so you know, just always, and you know, of course we want to adopt nasal breathing. What we want to do, it’s safely, and that’s why if you were to get a tape, tape around, and the tape that we use now is going to be elasticated. So it’s elasticated, and there’s a tension that when you place it around them, out, the tension is bringing the lips together, but the child can still talk, and the child, say for instance, because sometimes I’d be getting frustrated with the kids.

1:14:27 The kids that come into me. I do all of the exercise to open up their nose. I’d have them taped up in the class, tour running, they’re doing everything with their mouths closed. We’re having them doing lateral expansion, functional breathing, all of that breath holding. Everything, child walks in a week later, mouth is hanging open.

1:14:42 Okay, we’ll do it again, go through everything again, talk to children about the importance of nasal breathing. You look intelligent, and for teenagers coming in, I tell them to go Google mouth breather in any country you go to in the world. Just put mouth breather into Google and see what it puts back at you, and it tells you you’re a stupid person. Now, so I’m trying to motivate the kids from a sports point of view, from a sleep point of view, from a lux point of view.

1:15:09 A child that grows up breathing through the nose, that they have correct craniofacial development. They’re not just functionally better, but they also will have attractive face. And attract is not like straight teeth. People often talk about orthodontics straight teeth do not make a good-looking face, but a good-looking face which is developed the way nature intended it to develop will ensure that teeth will be straight when the face develops correctly. To Teeter straight, because the tongue is resting in the roof of the mouth, and it’s the tongue by being the scaffold of the jaws, by driving the jaws forward, by opening up the airway.

1:15:51 This airway is the size of your tongue. We have no room for error, and I’m coming back to my nose the tongue has got two places to be. It’s either in the roof of the mouth or it’s falling into the throat now when we have the mouth open, our tongue is on the floor of the mouth, and as a result, then the tongue is more likely to impede the airway, and even just by having the lips together, breathing through the nose, but to turn on the roof of the mouth, you’re helping to maximize the airway.

1:16:19 So if you were going for a run, if you’re going to sleep, during the rest, during the day, always those three things: nasal breathing, and tongue resting in the correct resting posture, and of course nasal breathing with diaphragmatic breathing. Okay, now, why is mouth breather always considered like a Neanderthal term in cultures? Why is it? It’s, I, you know, I probably because historically, individuals who were mouth breathing, they were mentally challenged.

1:16:50 And I think that was the first kind of cohort that individuals, if they had a mental disability, they didn’t have the cognitive ability to, to be breathing through their nose. And I don’t mean that as an insult to anybody who may have a learning, you know, a disability. If you know, it’s just I think that’s how society first looked at mouth breathing, yeah, that you were, you were mentally challenged if you had your mouth open. But now mouth breathing has become the norm.

1:17:20 And I remember Dr. Christian Guilleminault, you know, and sadly he passed a few months ago. He was, he was at the conference in Bordeaux, and he was talking there, and I was talking about breathing. It was asleep Congress, and he said, he says, we need engineers. He said we need dentists, we need architects, we need the professions, we’re not going to get these professions, because these kids, their brains are fried. That’s his terminology.

1:17:47 I’ve also seen him at other sleep congresses, and bear in mind he is often considered the father of sleep medicine. And I’ve seen all doctors talking about this, tiry tiry everything complex, and I’ve seen him stand up in the audience, and you could have a 500 people, 500 medical doctors there, and he’ll talk, you’ve missed everything except the elephant in the room, and the elephant in the room is the ports of nasal breathing, and for us in sleep, and for us with breathing, this was one of the absolute I openin aspects that we had. You couldn’t have had a better person, and he’s written papers about it, which I can send on to you.

1:18:28 And when you’re going through these papers, this is where the attention is happening, so it’s starting to happen in science. The science is catching up with what we’ve been seeing on the ground, so I think it’s really cool. So about a few months ago I went on a run, and we had 6k run, and I decided to nasal breathe. I don’t know why. Yes, I’d heard it somewhere.

1:18:46 I don’t know, but I did it, and it was interesting. It took some discipline. You know, I was, I was doing it, and I probably was playing around with my CO2 threshold, like I press cell, but I was like, all right, and I’m a little competitive, so I was like, I’m gonna see how long I can do this, and it worked for like a good 5k, but towards the end of my run in the Hampstead Heath there’s a serious hill that comes up. Sure, and like, I always go on, I always like going really hard on that hill, and I get to the very top, and I mean, I am totally done.

1:19:13 Sure, and I’m so, I’m so oxygen deprived or whatever it is. Yes, that I’m breathing through my mouth, and I have run my mouth breath. Yes, and so my question to you is, then is there a time when I should mouth breathe, because what if I got to get up that hill like that? Sure, yes. Or did I do something wrong in the whole thing?

1:19:31 No, it’s, you know, I think even that the fact that you spent a lot of time breathing through your nose is absolutely beneficial. Normally the switching point from nays from nasal to mouth breathing happens at about 35 to 40 liters. Is it from aerobic to anaerobic? Necessarily, no. It’s happening more so that, that the CO2.

1:19:50 It’s the CO2 that’s driving the switch, because it’s the increase of the CO2 in the blood that the body can’t get rid of the CO2 efficiently through the nose because of the resistance. Right, that’s not a bad thing, because what we want to do is we want to expose the body start higher CO2. So I would say that you’re absolutely fine doing now. You can change your breathing patterns to increase our view or ventilation. If you go for a run, what’s more efficient?

1:20:16 Is it fast shallow breathing, or is it slow deep breathing? Slow deep breathing is absolutely so much more advantageous, and the reason being every breath we take, not all of that air gets into the small air sacs in the lungs. proportionately, 150 ml of air is going to stay in the nose, in the throat, in the trachea, and the bronchi in the bronchioles. So every breath that you take into the body, a certain volume of that air will never reach the small air sacs.

1:20:47 Now, if we can reduce the respiratory rate, we are not losing so much air in dead space because we’re not breathing as many breaths per minute. Like, to give you the maths: if you are taking 12 breaths sitting at rest, 12 breaths a minute, and if each breath is a half liter, which is normal, we’re, sorry, ten breaths, sorry twelve breaths with a half liter, that’s giving us six liters of air per minute. Now, after that six liters per minute how much gets into the small air sacs?

1:21:15 Because that’s ultimately where we want to bring the oxygen. It’s four point to four point two liters when I subtract dead space. If I change the respiratory rate from 12 breaths per minute down to six, we can increase our viewer ventilation from four point two to five point one. We can increase oxygen delivery to this small did the ventilation. We can increase the amount of air that’s getting into the small air sacs by 20%.

1:21:39 Now I remember going a little bit. I had a woman with chronic heart failure, and I had her pulse oximeter on, and I was having her just walk in a room, and her blood oxygen saturation was dropping down to 92%. I say okay, this is not good, you shouldn’t desaturate so easy during physical exercise. I had her put her hands lower to ribs, and I asked, okay, now as you breathe in, I like you, your ribs just gently moving outwards, and as you breathe out, the lower two ribs gently moving in.

1:22:08 And then I started having her slow down her breathing, so she was taking fuller breaths but less of them, because I wanted to increase ventilation-perfusion, and I also wanted to increase gas exchange from the lungs to the blood. Her blood oxygen saturation increased from 92% to 96%. Dres papers written about this at altitude. If you’re going up into the air, into the mountains, somebody say is climbing Kilimanjaro, how can you breathe to optimize your breathing of fish say slow breaths.

1:22:40 In other words, don’t take some money breaths per minute, but it make the size of each breath bigger. Now at the same time, don’t over breathe, because when we’re talking about breathing, it’s not just about the respiration. It’s not just about the tidal volume. It’s about the respiration multiplied by the tidal volume. So the respiratory rate is the number of breaths per minute.

1:23:03 The tidal volume is the size of each breath. We’re interested in the minute ventilation, so it’s the minute ventilation is the amount of air that you’re taking into your body. So this is why I would say, and you know, your researcher, we were discussing questions, and I wrote in the stupidity of breathing through your mouth during physical exercise, and here it is in a nutshell. Number one, reduced oxygen uptake in the blood. Number two, and reduced oxygen delivery to the tissues.

1:23:33 Number three, trauma to the airways. Number four, not efficient. Number five, if you continuously nasal breathe for a period of time, you will improve your respiratory muscle strength. Your breathing muscles are less likely to fatigue, and also you, and your body is adapting to tolerate higher CO2. Your breathing and your degree of breathlessness is reduced.

1:23:56 No comparison, when I’m in the fight of my life and I need to get as much oxygen tired of your life. We want to get your breathing right before you go into that fight. Okay, if you have an individual, and just two ways of doing it. One is get your everyday breathing right, that the BOLT score, and the BOLT score is a measurement of breathlessness, and this measurement has been used since 1975, even up until 2017. And basically it involves getting a watch or a stopwatch, or whatever, take a normal breath in through your nose, and normal breath out, you pinch the nose, and you time it in seconds, how long does it take until you feel the first step in the desire to breathe.

1:24:35 Are the first involuntary contractions of your breathing muscles. It’s not the length of time that you can hold your breath for. Right? Is it the breath hold test? Yes.

1:24:43 Okay, you have to have 25 seconds. Okay, if you arrest in 25 seconds, the individual then is more likely to be dysfunctional breathing patterns. Okay, so we need to watch. What a second. Go, I’m gonna get one.

1:24:54 Oh, I’ll get one right now. Let me see if I got the clock here. I want to try this, cuz I don’t have any idea. So, but you got to be honest, right? Yeah so we will look.

1:25:02 I will keep an eye on your diaphragm movements, and I would keep in mind the muscles in the throat, cheat us. Okay, so I got the clock right here. Hit the start, and the other thing is, yeah when you’re measuring the BOLT score, never care what it’s about, because sometimes people put pressure on themselves, and their BOLT score drops. Okay, so it’s all about relaxing into it. So no pressure.

1:25:20 Pressure, Brian. Yeah, right. Okay, so I’m gonna breathe through my nose. So you take a normal breath in through your nose, a normal breath out through your nose, you pinch your nose with your fingers, and you’re timing it in seconds. How long does it take for your brain to react to send a signal to breathe?

1:25:36 So you feel it as the first step in the desire to occur, and then I should just breathe whenever that, how breathing should be normal at the end. Okay okay, so your breath at the end, when you resume breathing, should be, should be fairly normal. Okay, so I’ll hit start when I exhale out, and then I’ll judge, and then out whenever I just, I just in here, whenever I feel the need. Yet the first stage and the desire for definite disease. So you may feel that, like you can think of the the brain is monitoring the gas CO2 in the blood.

1:26:02 Okay, and CO2 is increasing to some point, the brain sends an immediate message via the phrenic nerve to the diaphragm, and the diaphragm can contract, so you’re waiting almost until you feel the first and voluntary movement of the breathing muscles. All right, here we go. Alright, so I’m gonna go in and then go out, and then I’m a hit start. Okay, so here we go. Ready?

1:26:24 Through the nose, everybody, don’t try this at home, by the way, everybody try this. Absolutely. It’s a really, and we can talk about it, and it’s a good, good performance in the character. Normal breath into your nose, and it’s just a normal breath that we shouldn’t really hear, and then I know you’re just relaxing into the breath hold. So there’s 20, and it may be happening there, 25.

1:27:06 So keep going until then, your breakfast 28 seconds, which is pretty good. I kind of want to breathing, it’s just a little bit off, so it might be quite 28 seconds. Maybe what I would say, it’s on the verge of 25 seconds. Okay. Now just a surprising thing.

1:27:21 Yeah, we have Olympic athletes, and they’ve had 12 seconds, so here you have an individual who is pushing themselves to the extreme and not knowing that it’s their breathing that’s holding them back. They can be plateauing. They can be feeling exercising, Jewish, Bronco it’ll also affect sleep, so that breath hold time is also a measurement of one of the phenotypes of sleep apnea called loop gain. So your breath hold time is telling you, you know, feedback of like individuals with a low breath hold time.

1:27:57 If you’re less than 25 seconds, you’re more likely to be upper chest breathing. Okay, you’re more likely to have a faster response. Your age, there’s very, like, if the breath hold time was 10 seconds, there’s no natural pauses between breaths. The person is feeling air hunger, and it’s a measurement of the degree of breathlessness, so when we’re working with athletes, we need to get them up to 40 seconds. So that’s the goal, because their breath hold time, it’s, that is a measurement of the onset of breathlessness and endurance, the breathlessness across insurance and we really want to, I suppose human beings are like cars in the way you know you’ve got a big an american american homer and they’re consuming about 10 miles you know to go to go ten miles it takes a gallon of fuel, or you have something like a Toyota Prius, or they’re doing 70 miles to the gallon.

1:28:44 I want to make the human being more efficient with their breathing, that they can do a lot more with less. Okay, and so to get my time up, I need to do more nasal breathing, air and exercise. Yes, and also practice. And here’s an exercise we could do. So this is just changing the biochemistry.

1:29:00 Yeah, so if you put one hand on your chest and after, you put 100 above your navel. Yeah, and if you just feel the airflow, so you’re breathing in and out through your nose, and you’re feeling the airflow coming into your nose, and there’s your inspiration, and how there’s your expiration. So really concentrate on the airflow. It’s coming in and out of your nose, and there’s your inspiration there, and there’s your expiration. Now what I would like you to do is really slow down your inspiration, so I really need you to slow it down.

1:29:36 So now you’re slowing it down. Excellent. So you’re slowing down your inspiration, and then at the top of the inspiration, bring a total feeling of relaxation to the body, so that you’re having a really relaxed, gentle breath out, really relaxed exhalation, and then, and the next breath in, really slow down the speed of the inspiration, so almost as if you’re breathing hardly any air into your nose, so you almost want to breathe so smoothly that the fine hairs within the nostrils do not move, and at the top of the breath you have a really prolonged and relaxed exhalation.

1:30:15 Your breathing movement should have reduced by about 30%, and the objective here is that you’re feeling that you’re not getting enough air, and I’m gonna have you feel it just for about a minute or two, and again, you’re really taking, you’re very soft and slow, gentle breath in by concentrating on the airflow coming into your nose, not by holding the breath, right? Anything like that, just by really slowing down the speed of the breath in, and at the top of the breath, total feeling of relaxation to the body, so really relaxed and slow breath out, and then when you feel the need to breathe in, a really soft and slow gentle breath in. So that’s it.

1:30:53 Really slow gentle breath in, and at the top of the breath, total feeling of relaxation to the body, so that you have a prolonged breath out. I need you to feel air hunger for the duration of the exercise. The air hunger signifies that CO2 is increased in the blood. As CO2 increases in the blood, check the sensation of your blood vessels, check the internal body temperature, and also as CO2 increases in the blood, more oxygen gets released from the red blood cells to the cells.

1:31:24 So we’ll continue what I want to, expose your body just to increase CO2 for a little time. So again, you’re really slowing down the speed of the breath in. I want your breathing volume now to be less than what it was before you started, so that you’re taking, you’re purposely taking less air into your body. You should feel as if you’re going for a walk, a degree of air hunger. So it’s a very soft and slow gentle breath in, and at the top of the breath, and total feeling of relaxation to the body, that you’re having a prolonged exhalation.

1:31:57 The breath out should be 1.5 times the length of the breath in. By having a long breath out, you’re activating the parasympathetic response, and then you’re taking a really soft and slow gentle breath in, and at the top of the breath, a total feeling of relaxation to the body, and you want to sustain that feeling of air hunger. True. Ouch. If it gets stressful for you, you take a bigger breath.

1:32:23 If you don’t have air hunger, you just take less air into your body. So it’s a really slow breath in, your breathing is so smooth that the fine hairs in the nostrils do not move. You’re feeling hardly any air coming into the nose, and you’re just slowing and softening the breath, and to take a rest, attached. So generally you will do it for periods of about three to four. Air hunger is noticeable.

1:32:52 Yes, like it’s a light, it’s a little uncomfortable. It is. You want to, you want to breathe. Yes, and this is the purpose, because of your gets better about three quarters away through it. It didn’t bug me as much, but it was still like, can I breathe now?

1:33:06 You got a sink. Yes, can I bring that magic? Yeah, but what am I doing there? Air hunger. Yeah, it’s not that your blood oxygen saturation has dropped.

1:33:13 If we monitored your blood oxygen saturation, it would have stayed almost the same throughout. Okay, air hunger is because, as you’re reducing the amount of air coming into your body, you’re not getting rid of as much CO2 from the blood, so CO2, carbon dioxide, is increasing a little in the blood, and as carbon dioxide increased in the blood, it helps open up your blood vessels, but it also causes hemoglobin to release oxygen more. So the ironic thing is, even though you feel air hunger more, oxygen is getting delivered.

1:33:45 Now, the other aspect is that the ratio of the breath in to the breath out should be 1 to 1.5, so if you were breathing in for 4 seconds to breathe out for 6 seconds, it’s the prolonged exhalation that activates the parasympathetic response. So when we have individuals with insomnia, I have them do this for about 15 minutes before they go to sleep. Now, did you notice any change in this? Live, in your mouth, was it less, more, the same? I didn’t notice it.

1:34:14 Maybe, like, slightly less. Okay, and if you were doing the air hunger, if it was putting you into a stress stage, this live is less. Yeah, but if the air hunger, if you can get it to a degree that it’s tolerable that you’re activating the parasympathetic response, this live is more. So we always want to, so we want to have a degree of suffocation, and at the same time remain in parasympathetic, our relaxation response. And then for example, so that would be the biochemistry.

1:34:45 Then we would bring in, in functional breathing, lateral expansion and contraction of the lower two ribs. So as the individual is breathing in, their ribs are moving out, and as they’re breathing out, their ribs are moving in. Then we would bring in cadence breathing, to breathe in for a count of four, and to breathe out for a count of six, because to increase heart rate variability, improve respiratory sinus arrhythmia, to stimulate the baroreceptors and to increase vagus nerve traffic.

1:35:14 So even just a simple technique, you can increase your blood circulation, you can increase oxygen delivery, you can improve biomechanics of breathing for functionality for functional movement, and individuals who have dysfunctional breathing, they have this functional movement, and if you have this functional movement, you’re at increased risk of injury. So that’s why we bring in the lateral expansion contraction, and then the cadence breathing, in terms of helping to restore bodily systems that are disturbed by stress, because individuals say, for example, with PTSD and chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, COPD, anxiety, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, asthma, they can have poor HRV, heart rate variability, because we need the timing between each heartbeat to be both random and also in rhythm, and there’s a synchronicity between your breathing and your heart rate.

1:36:11 So say, for instance, if you were to locate your pulse, and if you were to time your heartbeat against your breathing. As you breathe in, you should notice that the heart beat is getting faster, right? And as you breathe out, the heart rate should be slowing down, but we can stimulate this through the breath. This is the power of breathing. You know that you can influence so many bodily systems simply by changing the breath.

1:36:37 It’s not by taking the big breath. It’s not by taking the deep breath. It’s about bringing the three dimensions together. It’s about biochemistry, that you have light air hunger, it’s about biomechanics, that you have lateral expansion of the lower ribs, and it’s about a cadence. Bring the three together, and that makes a wonderful breathing exercise, and it’s powerful, and if I practice that over time, I’ll get comfortable with the deficit.

1:37:02 Yes, but we always want to have the deficit, because then I know that at least people aren’t over breathing, right? You know, and the other thing is, as you practice it over time, and as you’re getting comfortable with the deficit, your ability to hold your breath improves, so the BOLT score increases, and then when you do physical exercise, your breathlessness is decreasing. So coming back to Conor McGregor, when I see somebody in there, fast upper chest breathing, I need him to breathe mechanically, but I also need him to really reduce, to respond to race to increase CO2 in the blood to reduce what’s called the chemo sensitivity of the body to carbon dioxide, but basically to change his body’s reaction to the build-up of CO2, because if you have an overly strong sensitivity to carbon dioxide in the blood, your breathing is hard, and if your breathing is hard during rest, your breathing is going to be hard during physical exercise.

1:37:57 The stimulus debride is carbon dioxide buildup. We want to reduce the body’s sensitivity to carbon dioxide buildup translates into light or breathing during rest, light or breathing during sleep, light or breathing during exercise. Hmm, okay, I’m definitely sending this over to Kavanagh when we’re done, and he’s really open mind, a guy, he like loves new ideas. I’m sure he’ll find this fascinating. You know, I’m gonna try training today.

1:38:24 I’m gonna go train right after this, and I’m gonna try to do it with nose breathing. Sure, and I, I not greet all the time because I do a lot of anaerobic stuff, and I mean, I just, I always assume that’s the only way I need to do it. I started to see you can do anaerobic. This is where the breath Pollan comes in. So after this, we’ll bring in pulse oximeter, and I’ll show you the exercises, and you know, you, if you were to get a simple pulse oximeter, if you want to see if you’re going anaerobically.

1:38:49 Okay, look at your blood oxygen saturation, and you could do high-intensity interval training. If you breathe through your mouth, your blood oxygen saturation drops down to about 93 percent just below normal. If you breathe through your nose, it goes down to 91%, and if we do breath rolling, we’ll drop it down into the 80s, into the 70s. This is forcing the body to make adaptations, so don’t worry about, you know, do your high-intensity interval training, and if there’s times you want to switch to mouth breathing, that’s fine.

1:39:18 And at least, like, if I was saying to an elite athlete, no elite athlete is going to force nasal breathing 100%. They don’t have to warm up nasal breathing, but get five strong breath holds into the warm-up. It will open up the nose and increase blood flow to the brain. So drew, the Japanese very famous Japanese inventor called Nakamatsu, and people of our vintage will remember the floppy disk, the heart, and he invented the floppy disk, the digital watch, and he’s about four thousand patents to his name, and he gets his ideas from going into the water, and he says swim till almost die.

1:39:57 Now, of course, if you do with strong breath holding, the human body is so intelligent that it doesn’t mean that the brain is deprived of oxygen, because during the burst wrong breath hold now, I’m talking about a high per capita response, not a strong breath or post-hyperventilation. But if you have a normal breath via normal breath, and you hold your nose, as you hold your nose your blood oxygen saturation is dropping, but as you hold your breath, your CO2 is increasing, and CO2 is increasing, the carotid arteries open up, so the blood vessels supplying the brain, but oxygen dilation. So the brain, the body is always there to conserve blood and oxygen for the heart and for the brain, so you’ll feel your hands go cold, your legs can go jelly, because the periphery blood is taken from the peripheries to the heart and brain.

1:40:46 The human body has an immense intelligence, and this is why it’s so important to connect with us, and we can connect with it through the breath. Hmm, powerful stuff, Patrick, is there anything we didn’t cover as far as kids? Get them to watch the videos, get them to start using about this stuff. Yes, as far as anyone out there, just really think about your breathing as much, and where your tongue is placed, and really default to that nasal breathing, and no longer try that big deep breath, and tried starving yourself of oxygen as well.

1:41:17 I mean, well, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. You mentioned saamiya. I remember something funny enough Ido Portal mention to me, I think when I was in Israel filming with him with our movie, and he was talking about a breathing exercise that I think he had played with at night, where he would kind of do a four or five second exhale, followed by a four or five second pause, followed by four or five second inhale. Yes, well, by four or five seconds.

1:41:39 Yes, and he said try stretching it longer, and it is gonna feel difficult, because he was talking about that deputation. Yes, he was using that to go to sleep at night. What were you saying? Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a tactic used often by the military. Okay, and it’s used in terms of concentrating the mind.

1:41:58 It’s actually a very clever exercise. If you breathe in slowly for four seconds, and then if you hold your breath, you’re giving enough time for oxygen to diffuse from the lungs into the blood, then you’re breathing out slowly for four seconds. That’s happening to activate the body’s parasympathetic or calming response, but then when you hold your breath for four seconds, CO2 is going to increase slightly in the blood to have the oxygen that’s in the blood to be delivered.

1:42:27 So overall that exercise will have a calming effect, and researchers in Stanford Medical in March of 2017 they first identified a new structure in the brain in mice, and then they were able to identify it in humans, and they said that this structure, the locus coeruleus, which is a part of the brain, they said this structure is spying on your breathing, and if you breathe fast, this structure will relay signals of agitation to the rest of the brain. If you really slow down your breathing, this structure will relay signals of calm to the rest of the brain. And the other thing is, you’re less likely to be woken from sleep.

1:43:06 Now if you have a mouth breather, they are breathing fast, and fast breathing is agitating the mind. And when I look at individuals coming in with anxiety, panic disorder, high stress levels, I’m seeing fast upper chest breathing, and as long as they will breathe in that way, their body is in a state of fight-or-flight, and how can you address agitation of the mind unless you address breathing? So we really want to slow down the breath to not only as a meditation, because when you’re focusing on your breathing, your mind is less likely to be worried, because your your attention is on the breath.

1:43:45 It also trains the brain, because our capacity to concentrate. Concentration is our ability to hold our attention on a subject matter for a period of time without distraction. That’s what concentration is. Now, our brains are trained to be distracted. Mobile phones, emails, text messaging.

1:44:09 Like, I come into the hotel last night, there were Instagram messages, Facebook messages, three emails, there were sports app, and I said, oh my god, what’s this all about? And that’s it every day. I counted my emails on Monday, the first day, and I said to Anna, says I’ve just answered 82 emails and that was my normal day. I said, this is crazy stuff, and these are all serving to be a distraction to the mind. The mind, and, is distracted.

1:44:36 The capacity to concentrate is impinged if our mind is distracted, and if we have a lot of repetitive and incessant thinking going through the mind, not only is our concentration affected, but our stress levels are increased. Our anxiety is increased, and our mental health and happiness has decreased. We really need to learn that by focusing on the breath, we’re holding our attention on the breath, and use it as a measurement of concentration. That yes, when you first focus on your breathing, it’s normal that your mind will wander but if you find that your mind wanders a lashe, you know that you’ll even get more out of it.

1:45:16 Now, when I started first focusing on the breath 20 years ago, my mind was wandering like crazy. I had a very agitated mind and if you have an agitated mind, your concentration is affected. So why would be in school? I would be in university I would be looking at notes, but my attention wasn’t on the page. My attention was stuck in my head with all of this distracting thoughts.

1:45:40 We can’t produce a quality of work unless we’re able to have 100% of our focus on that work, and if our attention is absolutely occupied in the mind, we don’t have our attention on the task at hand. We need to train the brain. One way to do it is by focusing attention on the breath. Be gentle with us. Don’t expect results overnight.

1:46:05 Your goal is not to have a quiet mind. Your goal is to give your body the attention it deserves. There is an intelligence in the human body that the human being will never create, never all of those functions moving simultaneously. Take her attention out of the mind onto your breathing. Start slowing down your breath, increase your blood oxygen uptake, increase oxygen delivery to the cells.

1:46:32 This is a calming effect on the mind. There’s so much we can do through the breath. We really have to tap into it, and it’s about understanding the intricacies and the multi-dimensional aspects of the breath, to fulfill that. Hmm. What does your life look like five years from now?

1:46:50 If you’re able to get in, you doing the work you’re doing, yes, like what do you want to be doing five years from now? I will hopefully continue doing this work. I love the work, and what’s more is that science is starting to catch up, and now we’re seeing it, so we’re able to bring the theory together. In five years, my schedule this year was crazy, and I felt I had a leader in demand, 2530 thrips internationally. Now I have a nine-year-old kid at home.

1:47:22 Okay, we were lucky enough, we spent about seven weeks together during the summer. I’m booked up until 2021, and I have taken about six weeks off, because I’m trying to get two books finished, so I would really love it that I can have a balance between my work and my family life, and that’s one thing that I want to look at, and I’m lucky in that the work that I’m doing has really helped keep stress levels to a minimum, and that’s a tremendous, and you know, it’s not about like people might ask to you, do for more breathing exercises? Not really.

1:47:59 I went out. I got up this morning, and I went for a cup of coffee across the road, and then I went for a 20-minute walk, and I did some breath holding, and I remember I was going by, and I was holding my nose. Sometimes I say, okay, I better not hold my nose, but that was what I was doing, so I often just bring my breathing exercises into wherever I am. I always want to have some connectivity with the breath, and whether it’s now or whether it’s five years, it’s not about where we are in five years’ time.

1:48:28 It’s really about where we are now. And true, the breath, we’re taking our attention into the present moment, like I remember at university I was in such a rush to get to the end of it. I was here, but I wanted to be there. I wasn’t present. I didn’t have my attention on what I wanted to do, and you know what, I kind of liked life to just unfold, and we, I don’t set goals.

1:48:52 I don’t have any plan. I don’t have a five-year goal plan. I would like of course to have more time, and in terms of that balance, that work-life balance, but I think really the key of this is, bring your attention into the body, not so it’s not so important the length of time you, or attention during one session, but it’s the number of times that you’re connecting with your breath throughout the day. Too often we are living with our attention fully stuck in her head, and of course, fully stuck in her head.

1:49:28 We are not seeing life around us. We are not listening to what’s going on. We don’t see the sights. We’re not getting the feeling. You go to a restaurant, you have a lovely meal.

1:49:39 You might taste the first couple of mouthfuls, and then bump, our attention is taking everything. Don’t live our life stuck in the head, and one way to get out of the head is focus on the breath, so I think life is nice when it unfolds, and we never know, and I never know, and if I was to predict that that book would have went into 14 languages, that I would have been traveling and booked every year in advance. I would have said I wouldn’t have believed it.

1:50:09 I’ve had so many lucky breaks, and I think part of those lucky breaks because I had surrendered, and I focus on my breathing, because creativity, intuition, fresh and original insight happen not when the mind is flooded with thoughts, but when there’s gaps between thinking and it has been very, very helpful. Yeah, no, that’s so true. What if I were to ask five of your best friends what is, what is Patrick’s superpower? Like, how are you able? That’s it.

1:50:38 They would say he’s an absolute idiot. I doubt that. How are you able? What were they saying that you’re able to do all this stuff? You know, you’ve been publishing for many, many years.

1:50:47 You still travel around the world. You do all this stuff. What would they say? It is, see my friends. I don’t even, kind of, yeah, cuz like not everybody is into the breath, and this was always, you know, you could be at a dinner table, if people ask, like, if people ask me what’s right.

1:51:04 Oh it’s not here in California. I’m actually better known, probably, in California and but like it’s, yeah, I always kind of, yeah I don’t really like it. It’s not everybody gets to breath, Brian, really. Now you have a court of individuals, absolutely. Gosh it hasn’t gone into that mainstream, and even though it’s talking about the stillness of the mind, I, I get that you understand.

1:51:29 Not so many people get it. So whether we’re talking about the breath, whether we’re talking about the mind, it’s not everybody’s cup of tea, and a lot of my friends were just happy to go for a beer, and we talk about anything and everything, and, and we won’t really talk about the breath. So, so they don’t think you have to separate our, oh, well, you’re obviously well-read. You obviously know all of your science. You have opinions about all these things.

1:51:54 I mean you know, yeah, very distinct what you do. Yeah, tell me, what was the best day of your life in the worst day of your life? Um one of the best days, okay, I’ll have to say was the day I got married. That’s to keep my wife happy okay, so we reject take too long second birthday. Okay.

1:52:15 I was driving from Galway to Navan. It’s from one of the country to another, and I was going to visit, thing was my sister’s, my, I know, it was my wife’s sister, and I was driving on a Friday, and I got a feeling that I was to teach this work, and it was a hunch. It was just something that I got, and you know, we got there on Friday, and at the time I was in kind of limbo. Yeah, I was still working in all of that, but I knew it was that feeling, and it was totally illogical, and I followed it.

1:52:52 That was one of the best days. One of the best days was following my gut instinct, because we can’t always rely on logic, and it’s an overwhelming feeling that this is the right particle, and yes, of course I’m not saying that doubts don’t come in. Doubts do come in, but when you look at the entirety of it, you still feel that you’re propelled in distraction and continuing to that, you know. So that would have been one of the best days, and like, I love to work, and you know, like I’m not a guy that’s waking up Monday morning, Haitian, going into work I was that guy, and partially I was probably a difficult employee because I had an agitated mind and poor sleep, so it wasn’t just that the workplace didn’t fit me.

1:53:45 I didn’t fit the workplace, and it has brought me so much when I’ve been able to bring these tools firstly on a personal level, but also I feel like in connect with individuals, because sometimes a bit of suffering is very beneficial, because it gives us the perspective to be able to differentiation to be able to, you know, to contrast one after the other, and from, yeah, it’s, its life is being good okay, and the worst day, toughest day, was my father passing without you know, it was one of those tough days, and I was in my thirties, and how did I deal with it? Of course you’re grief-stricken, and your heart is broken but I really use presence of the mind to get me through that, and I kept on bringing my attention into the body. I really kind of surrender to the grief, and you know, I think it gives us that sense of perspective.

1:54:48 We are finite beings. We’re here for a very, very brief period of time. We’re so caught up in, and sometimes the life, and the doing, and the working, and the pushing, in the struggle. Our ancestors weren’t caught up with that. Our ancestors had lovely times of reflection.

1:55:07 I live in a gorgeous part of the country in Ireland, and go away. I have unhindered views for six miles. I have no neighbors, and that is my resilience. I go home after a trip. I just go out into nature and I surrender, and it’s super.

1:55:25 So yeah, so my worst day, of course, is dealing with grief. My best day was, I have a good life. Nice. What, what scares you? Don’t know.

1:55:38 I don’t have too many fears. Nothing really, to be honest with you, and I don’t mean that isn’t in the bad way. Nothing captures my attention. That, you know, like public speaking initially would have been tough enough. I had my own ritual, you know.

1:55:54 I would always kind of rival age at the event, so say if I was talking the two o’clock I wouldn’t arrive at nine o’clock and much other speakers, because you end up talking with everybody, and I would have decision fatigue by the time I was to go out there, so I would time it strategically, that if I was talking at two o’clock, I would arrive at 1:30. But before that, I would spend about a half an hour really slowing down on my breath to bring me into focus and presence, and then I would do five strong breath holds to bring me into that sympathetic, into a state of focus, and I would get a grudge, and talk. I have the ability that I know the information that I’m talking about.

1:56:30 I don’t use PowerPoints now am I used to, and I want to talk where the information comes out naturally and it fits, and there’s a better connection with the audience. I don’t like the PowerPoint presentation. I think too often it’s used, and I can understand why it’s, you is because it’s a crops. What people are looking up at a screen. They’re completely hypnotized by it.

1:56:54 They’re not even listening to the speaker. I want two speakers in front of me. I want to look into their eyes, and I want to connect human to human. Get the technology out of the way, so if fear, public speak, and I speak to any amount of people, something that you get used to conquering any fear. I think it’s about taking it with teaspoons.

1:57:15 Same when I was flying, and I fly all the time now. I had to start. Yeah, of course you’d be anxious about getting onto a plane, and 10, 12 years ago, you know, I wouldn’t have been doing it so frequently, but it’s like everything else. It’s you take a teaspoon, teaspoon, teaspoon. You build up resilience.

1:57:31 You become comfortable with a fear. Decreases. Yeah, what keeps you awake at night? What keeps me awake? It’s not nothing really, you know.

1:57:44 Yeah, it’s like, no, there’s nothing. I can’t think of anything that’s financially I’m so blessed, like, you know, in terms of, I’ve got enough, enough money to survive. I have a beautiful house, beautiful family. You know, so we don’t have any stress over money, and I don’t think anybody should have stress over money, and never want to. And so if you’re a man, I’m in a great position, so nothing is really keeping me awake power.

1:58:12 If I have a few, few money to book too many pints of Guinness, but it or not, right? That’ll keep you out. You ever worry about the state of the world? No, because I don’t, and because I want to keep my mind on polluted. I don’t watch the news.

1:58:26 I don’t read newspapers, and the reason being, and I stopped watching the news, and this introduced probably 20 years ago, and the other time I hear whatever’s on the news if I’m driving my car or whatever, I, you know, like there’s, as me as a human being, I wanted to get my own mind serene, concentrated, focused, not having all of this agitation. If I can do it to me, then when I’m in connectivity with other people, I may be able to impart that to other people. I don’t know, think, you know, I’m not out there to change the world.

1:59:05 I would love to see the message for kids get out there more. I would love to see it. I think it’s happening, so what’s happening, and you know, so probably on that basis, yeah, I would love to see breathing really. I would love to see researchers in the medical profession, the asthma society’s, you know, if you have half a million people who are assman Ireland nobody talks about nasal breathing. The asthma society of Ireland, I’ve met him two or three times.

1:59:31 They pretend to give me some, you know, kind of arteries here. Should we’ll give him some time? It’s only for the politics of it, you know nothing happens. We have dinosaurs in societies. We don’t know their motives.

1:59:46 We don’t know their agenda. We have dinosaurs in the government, you know. So really my, my ability is only to do the things that I can control myself. I don’t want to be worried about all of that stuff outside my control. I can control my books.

2:00:04 I can control the information I put out there. I can control my mind. If I can control my mind, I’m hoping that that will impart something that we bring it into discussion. Mmm, it’s powerful stuff there, Patrick. I always ask few questions at the end.

2:00:20 I’m gonna ask you, if you could pick up some magic phone and call up the 20 year old Patrick, yes, give that young man some advice. What would you tell him not know what to expect today, but I was sure blown away by all this stuff. So super impressed by how well you have researched this stuff, and you really know what you’re talking about, and it’s gonna completely, completely mess with my life now for the next six months, because I’m gonna be thinking about my breathing when I’m running and now when I train and now I’m be taping my mouth up starting tonight, probably good stuff, and now maybe I’ll be going into my kid’s room as well, but I’ll start with my wife at least, but I really appreciate this.

2:01:24 I never really knew how important this was. I hear people talk about it. I mean, I heard Laird Hamilton talk about it but I mean, when you really drop all the science here, it’s, it’s pretty fascinating, and it’s maybe hard to deny. So I really appreciate that. I think people got a real big chunk of knowledge.

2:01:41 Thank you so much. So yeah, I encourage anyone listening here to really start nasal breathing. Basic stuff here, if they want to find out, this, these videos about kids and how to decongest your nose and stuff like that. Yes, that’s the way to do that. Yeah, even like if you just go into, there’s some websites.

2:01:56 They’re, our kids program is on Buteyko Clinic dot com, that’s B-U-T-E-Y-K-O. Okay, you take our clinic dot com, you’ll find some link there. Okay, and then we have videos on YouTube, and we will have a complete kids program. We hope to fill them in January, that will have it in March, completely free. Okay, fantastic, and you have a website as well?

2:02:15 Yeah, Oxygen Advantage dot com. Okay, I’m Buteyko Clinic dot com. Okay, and the book is the Oxygen Advantage, and get that at booksellers, Amazon, all that good stuff. Yeah, it’s, it’s in 14 different countries, so it’s in many many languages. That’s amazing.

2:02:28 And again, like, you know, you were doing this for many, many years, or it popped, and it’s really caught on, and that’s why that advice I think is really good. You know, say yes to everything in the beginning. Yes, do it for you, and do it as a passion. Is what is great stuff. I’m so glad I listened to Daniel and Micra and had you in here again.

2:02:47 Really appreciate the stuff, Patrick. I’ll be putting this in my life right now, and look, all the best, men, right? On what you’re doing, so much fun. Yeah, thank you very much, sir.