Nigel Owens - Respect

Full transcript: Nigel Owens on London Real

3:48 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Nigel Owens, the international rugby referee who holds the world record of 71 test match appearances. Your job is to command respect on the field from some of the world’s leading male athletes where you’re known for your razor sharp refereeing and cutting one-liners. In 2007, you were the first person to come out as gay in rugby and your autobiography halftime chronicles your struggles growing up in a small town in Wales where you attempted suicide, considered chemical castration and battled with depression, bulimia and steroid addiction.

5:15 Last year, you were honored with the member of the Order of the British Empire, the MBE, for your services. Nigel, welcome to London Real. Thank you very much. Nice having you here. You know, we have a worldwide audience here.

5:26 And so before we jumped into what it’s like to be on the field there, tell me about the game of rugby and, you know, what is it and what does it mean to you? Well, the game of rugby was started back in rugby school in England here 150 plus years ago, whatever it was, when a guy called William A. Bellis just picked up of playing football or soccer, as we call it in some places in the world, as we call it in West Wales as well. They were playing a game of soccer and he just picked up the ball and started running with it.

5:58 And obviously you’re not supposed to pick up the ball in football. He comes handball and this evolved into the game of rugby. And the game of rugby in general in a lot of countries was an upper class, middle class game, whereas the working class who tend to play football or soccer in a lot of the sort of countries. But then Wales was very different. Wales rugby was part of the community, the community that was built around the coal mining industry and the steel mining industry.

6:30 And all the rugby clubs evolved in those small communities then in Wales and different to a lot of other parts of the country and a lot of other countries in the world. Rugby in Wales was a grassroots, was a community and was a working class game. So it was a very different type of game, exactly the same game, the same laws, but a different type of people I suppose in one sense playing it in Wales. In Wales it was a game for all classes, whereas traditionally when it started it’s changed now and quite directly so.

7:03 Thankfully it’s a game for all classes now in all the countries and most of the countries over the world. So that’s what rugby is in Wales and rugby as a sport. And growing up as a young boy in Wales, brought up on a council estate in West Wales in a small village of a population of about 125-30 people when I was brought up as a young person. Rugby was pretty much what you did in sport. You’d play rugby, you’d play football as well, kick the ball about, play soccer.

7:36 But rugby then was sort of the game where every kid in Wales, most kids in Wales growing up, would want to play for their country and to be the heroes that they watched playing on a Saturday afternoon for their local clubs, for their local professional clubs now and for the international stage. So rugby is a wonderful sport. Rugby is a very unique sport where it is probably the only team sport in the world nearly where it is a game for all shapes and sizes.

8:04 You can have somebody who is nearly 7 foot, the tallest person on the field, to the shortest person, to the biggest person, to the thinnest person, to the slowest, to the fastest. Rugby has a position in the field in that 50 in players for everybody. No matter how fast you are, how good you are, whatever you shape, your different skills, you can be a forward where you can scrimmage and push people off the ball or you can be a back that can run and beat people with your pace and your skill.

8:33 So that makes rugby a very unique sport and as a hugely important part of rugby, there is a game for everybody as well. If you look at rugby league then developed from rugby union and if you look at soccer or football as a sport, as when you are a certain type of player, if you are playing football, most of the people tend to be skillful people and none of them are very big. You don’t see the big guy struggling around the field, maybe not playing football, but there is a place for them in rugby. It is a very unique sport and also as well it is one of the sports that have led the way I think in recent years in inclusiveness of the sport.

9:14 No matter where you are from, what the colour of your skin is, your religious beliefs, your sexual orientation, there is a place for you within the rugby family and that is why rugby means a lot to me. There is no doubt that I probably wouldn’t have been able to be who I am today and be myself if it wasn’t for the great sport that rugby is. So rugby means a lot to me and it means a lot to people in Wales and to a lot of people all over the world as well and that is why it is such a wonderful team sport.

9:41 I will never forget my first introduction to both football aka soccer and rugby when I came to England about 15 years ago and I think my first football match, I was down at Chelsea and I went in there and I was in the stands. There was like a 10 year old kid and his father and they were yelling things I had never heard out of anyone’s mouth in my life. They were really passionate yelling yelling yelling and that was my soccer experience. Then I went to Twickenham and I remember before the match, people turned around in the stands and were like good luck to you, good luck to you before the match started and I am not saying one was better or worse but they were very different cultures.

10:17 Did I get the initial impressions right? You are right and you are right to what you are saying. I don’t think one is better than the other. I don’t think rugby can take the moral high ground above soccer or any other sport and neither can soccer or football take the moral high ground above rugby or any other sport. They are different sports and they are a different culture isn’t a lot of them but one of the true values of rugby I think which does set it apart from a lot of the other sports is its value of respect.

10:48 If you went to watch an Arsenal Chelsea game for example here in London, if you were the away supporter you would be sitting with the away support. You wouldn’t be sitting next door to somebody who is supporting the home team. Whereas in rugby you pretty much sit wherever you want in the stadium and you could be sitting amongst the away support. You are supporting your own team and you can feel safe within that environment and rugby allows that because one of the most important values of rugby, its ethos and its important value is its value of respect.

11:19 Whether it’s respect to players, to match officials and vice versa, spectators, you know we are able to sit next to each other in the stadium. We are supporting different teams but able to enjoy each other’s company, enjoy the banter but yet feel safe within that sporting environment and that’s a huge important part of rugby I think. And also what rugby does, I think rugby instils in you this value of respect. When you were a young kid growing up you were taught the values of rugby to respect the match officials, to be part of the ethos of the team.

11:54 And it builds you not only the skill as a player but it builds within you as well the skills of you to become a good person as well and probably the most important value of that is the value of respect. I think if there’s one thing that today’s society lacks all over the world is its value of respect. And rugby upholds the tradition of respect still and as I said it can’t take the moral high ground because a lot of things that rugby can improve on and do better as well.

12:26 But when it comes to its value of respect I think rugby certainly does lead the way in that. And that’s what makes, as you quite rightly said, when you were in those two different sports there were two different cultures. There’s a lot of good people in soccer, in football. There’s a lot of good people in rugby. There are a few bad people in rugby but the minority of those bad people are much less in rugby than they are in football and that’s where there is the culture.

12:58 It also is well because football is a massive sport. There are much more people who follow football and watch football and play football than play rugby. So the minority in football is going to be a bigger minority and that voice becomes bigger as well. But there’s a lot of great people involved in football as there is in rugby and we must never lose sight of that really. But rugby’s value of respect is its most important ethos I think. We must never lose that from the game.

13:26 I agree. I’m always talking about martial arts being important for children because they learn that they can fight but at the end of the day always respect their opponents etc. And so it’s nice to hear you talk about a sport like rugby to do the same because I do think we need more of that stuff. Can you tell me what it’s like to walk out on the pitch when there’s 30 huge strong lads out there that are about to try to knock each other’s blocks off? There’s a lot on the line. At Twickenham there can be 80,000 plus people watching, millions on television and you’re mic’d up on top of that.

13:58 And everyone’s looking at you. What is that like for people that might not understand it? Yeah, it’s pressure. It’s massive pressure. I see some people don’t like this. Whether they like it or not, the referee is an important part of the game.

14:15 Not the most important part of the game but an important part of the game because without the referee you’re not going to get a game of rugby. So we are an important part of the game but far from the most important part. We play a small part in it but yet it’s an important part in that cog of the game because without it the game wouldn’t take place. And then over the years they’ve developed because rugby is quite a difficult sport for somebody to understand what’s going on if you haven’t been brought up in rugby.

14:44 If somebody coming and looking and I’m sure if you were looking at rugby for the first time you must be thinking to yourself, what the hell is going on here? What are they trying to do? So what happened over the years? They bought the microphone for the referee to wear. So when the referee made decisions he would be explaining the decisions.

15:00 So people watching at home who had no idea about the laws of rugby and what went on in the game could then help them understand and get them to understand rugby. And hopefully then get rugby a more global audience and get more people involved in the sport because they could now understand it. Because if you’re not understanding something you don’t want to get involved in it. So we didn’t ask us referees to wear those microphones. We were told you wear the microphone because we need to grow the game.

15:28 And I think that’s fine and that’s an important part of the game. But that brought us pressure. It’s brought the pressure then of a lot of these games. Pretty much every game I referee now is live on television. And the pressure now when the game went from amateur to professionalism back in 95, stroke 96, then were people getting paid.

15:50 Then there was money for winning leagues, winning tournaments, bonuses, people’s jobs. If you were a coach and you weren’t winning you’d get the sack. So then it adds a total new pressure to the role that you do within rugby. And then there’s more pressure on us as referees then to make our decisions right. And then the more cameras you have now sometimes 34, 38, 24, 28 cameras on the field looking at every single decision from every different angle.

16:18 Yet myself or any other referee gets one chance to look at it and make a decision like that. Although with a TMO now you can look at decisions again within the protocol that that allows. So it’s brought a huge amount of pressure. Because when you go out on that field it’s first of all a great privilege and honor to be a part of this wonderful game. A small part of it but yet again a part of it.

16:40 And it’s a privilege and an honor. Nothing more than that. You go out there to do your job as a referee and that’s the most important thing. You’re there to referee a game of rugby. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

16:51 But then with the microphones, with the cameras, with the games live on TV, with rugby growing globally as a sport, there has become more of a spotlight on a referee. We didn’t ask for that spotlight but it’s become honest because your decisions are scrutinized. And sometimes I find a bit of a stick this week in fact of some people for the way that I communicate on the field. And they say that you’re saying things to get headlines. I am not saying things to get any headlines.

17:21 The game is about the most important people on the field and that is the 30 players and the spectators who pay to come in and watch the game and the people watching at home. Those are the most important people in the game. The game is for them. We just play a small part in making sure that game goes ahead. So I don’t go out in that field to make headlines or to say funny things because I think if I say this now people who are like this will think it’s funny.

17:46 I don’t do that. I go out in the field to do my best for the 30 players on that field. And I just say it as it is. And if something needs to be said on the field I just say it. I don’t think I’ll say this now this will be funny.

17:58 I don’t do that. I just say it as it is. And I treat the 30 players and the game itself with the utmost respect. So sometimes as referees we get criticized. You know people say well a referee should be anonymous.

18:10 You should know he’s there. Well yes I agree. But when we wear the microphones or the camera is on us and looking at every decision we make we don’t have any choice. So all we can do is be the best at what we can be and do our job. And if we do our job then you would do in the justified service to the game and the credit to the game for what you should be doing.

18:33 And that’s all I do is to go out in the field and do that. But with that and I don’t think people really appreciate sometimes the hard work that goes in behind the scenes, the training, the preparation for the matches, you know, the fitness training pretty much every day and the preparation for the game and making the decision in front of 85,000 people in the stadium, millions of people watching at home and you’re going to make that split decision like that and the huge pressure. So the pressure on us as referees is massive now.

19:03 And when you go out in that field you sometimes feel that pressure. You can’t have the pressure for 80 minutes around the field but you know that’s why we’re there and if you’re good at doing your job you know you were there doing the job. If you’re not good at doing it then you won’t be doing it anymore. So it is a wonderful experience and it’s a privilege and an honor to be part of the game as I said, a small part of it but a part of it. And you know I owe more to rugby than rugby will ever, ever owe to me.

19:33 You know I’m just thankful to play the smallest part in this wonderful game. And you’re known for your one-liners, for your comebacks and things and you have a background in comedy as well so that can’t hurt. Yeah, I think comedy is all about the timing, isn’t it? That’s what they say and there’s a time and place for everything. And sometimes on that field I say things and I say something on the weekend to a player in a game in Manchester Glasgow where I’d given a decision that the advantage was over and the player asked me, quite rightly so, he was the captain and asked, you know, why aren’t we not going back with the scrum?

20:12 Was advantage over? And I said, no, advantage is over. It was a poor pass by you under low and due pressure which means because there was no pressure on you to make that pass, then we don’t take that into account so advantage is over. So if you check the pass which wasn’t the best of passes but you were under pressure to pass it because defence was right on top of you, then advantage would not have been over. So he explained to the player, so I just told this player, look, because it was a poor pass by you, under low pressure, advantage is over. And he said, and he was quite witty himself, he came back and said, thanks, coach, and had a smile and we both were on with the game.

20:48 But I didn’t say that because I think, oh, I want to be disrespectful to this player about the pass, I want people to think that this is funny. I don’t even think that is witty, I just said exactly, look, this is the reason why advantage is over. And then, you know, and thankfully the majority of people in rugby have taken it in the right context of what it has meant, including that player himself. But I don’t go out in that field to be funny or to do nothing else.

21:14 I just go out to do my job and that’s the most important thing. And I suppose sometimes witty things come out because I just say it as is and that’s part of me, who I am as my personality, my upbringing, I guess, the humour that I was brought up within the family and the community in West Wales, you know, the farming community I was brought up in was a different type of humour. And I was on stage at 14 years of age doing stand-up comedy two years before I even picked up the whistle to referee a game.

21:46 So it’s part of me, really, and it’s natural and it happens when I feel it or when I say it, I just say it. But never do I ever think I’m going to say this because I want to be funny. And there’s a time and place, you know, if you penalise a player or you yell a card a player, then that’s not the time to say something funny or to say a joke. So, you know, I just say it as it is, but I like to think that when I say it as it is on the field, I say it in the context that I mean it, and thankfully the majority of people and pretty much nearly all the players, if not all of them, take it in that context, really.

22:23 I refereeed, and I suppose this will sum up a bit about society we live in today, I guess. I refereeed Leinster against Scarlett’s a couple of weeks ago, and we were about ten minutes before the end of the game. There has been nothing controversial in the game. It was a great game of rugby, two positive teams playing good rugby, and I penalised Leinster about ten minutes to go. And I had my back now to the touch line, which was about 15 metres away, and the ball boy chucked the ball on to the Scarlett’s player for him to take the penalty, and it caught me in the back of the head.

22:58 So when somebody hits you at the back of the head or something hits you at the back, then the first thing you do is turn round and see, where did it come from and what happened? So the ball catches me on the top of the head, his back of the head. I just turned round, and the poor ball boy is on the touch line, he’s gone bright red, and he goes, you know, sorry, sorry, he goes like this, you know. And I just sort of went over to him, got the yellow card out, and sort of gave him the yellow card with a stern look, because as if I was giving it to a player, and then gave him a big smile, and he trundled off, and then the ball went to the touch, and I went down, I shook his hand, I said, are you okay? He said, yes, he said, sorry about that.

23:30 I said, don’t worry about it, I said. And I shook his hand and got on with it, and I signed the match jersey for him, and I got hold of who he was, and I posted it out to him, and he’s actually had the jersey last week. But then what surprised me was then, I didn’t plan that. I didn’t think, oh, if a ball boy chucks a ball at me one day, I’m going to give him a yellow card. I just reacted the way that I would react in any situation in everyday life.

23:54 And I reacted because it was the right thing to do at the time. There’d been nothing controversial in the game. If there’d been something controversial in the game, or there’d been a yellow card which was debatable, I probably wouldn’t have reacted that way and given the yellow card, because you’d have people quite rightly saying, well, look, it’s just a yellow card, it’s somebody for a dubious yellow card decision 10 minutes ago, and now he’s making a joke about everything yellow card in the ball boy, and they would be right.

24:18 So there’s a time and place for everything. So I support part of your upbringing, and some of my comedy background, if you guess, is knowing, I suppose, how to react and when to react. But what surprised me with that was, and as I said, I think this sums up society where we live in today. How many people commented and say, what a wonderful thing. What a great guy you are.

24:39 What a lovely thing to do. You made that ball boy’s day. And I thought, really? Is it such a wonderful thing? Isn’t this something we all should be doing, is not taking life too seriously sometimes, and have the ability to have a smile and a joke when the time is right?

24:56 And I do sometimes think that we are living in a time where political correctness has gone to the extreme, health and safety has gone to the extreme. People are afraid to have a joke and have a smile anymore, and if that’s the way society is going to go, we’re going to be living in a very, very sad place in years to come. I certainly hope it won’t be in my lifetime, because I wouldn’t like to live in a society where we’re afraid to have a joke and a smile anymore when the time is right.

25:23 You said something there. It’s your job, really, to know the emotional makeup of that field, to judge it, and then make decisions accordingly. Because I’m about to ask you, how do you get on there and command the respect of the 30 guys on that field? A lot of these guys, tempers, a lot on the line, which brings up a lot of things, and yet you have to be measured and know when to push, when to joke, when to do this, when to do that. How do you do that?

25:52 I think a lot of it is your natural ability to do that, your man-management style, really, and your experiences in learning. I’ve been refereeing now 29 years. If touch wood, I’m still fit and healthy, and I start refereeing in September when the rugby season starts back up here. It will finish at the end of May up here before the tour starts back in September. And hopefully, if all is well, I’ll be refereeing in September.

26:15 I’ll be starting my 30th year. Now, within that 30 years, I have done a lot of mistakes in refereeing. I’ve done a lot of decisions that were, you know, poor decisions at the time, from the very, very beginning of your career until quite recently where you make mistakes, because there is no way you can referee a game of rugby without making a mistake. Yourself, me, and anybody else who’s watching or listening to this today is not going to get through life without making mistakes.

26:42 And refereeing is no different. And I’ve made mistakes, but you learn from those mistakes. So it’s a huge amount of experience, really, in making mistakes and learning how to say things, when to say them, the temperature of the game, when it needs to sort of let the game go so the game play, or something rain it back in a bit, you know, or keep a firm hand because temperatures are starting to rise, and you need to keep your calm and stuff around there, because once you start rising with the temperature of the game, the temperature of the game is going to get even more, and your job is to bring the temperature back down and a lot of that is learned by experience, the type of person you are, and everybody can do it, and everybody can be a referee.

27:19 And as well, I think, as I said earlier, the most important value of rugby is respect. You know, I have the utmost respect for every single player that I have ever refereed, and I’d like to think that that respect works both ways and that they would respect me as a person. But more importantly, as a player, as a referee, doing my job, and that respect is earned over the years, over the years, really, by you doing what you need to do. And, you know, at the end of the day, I’m at a referee game of rugby, and knowing when to do things, when to penalize, when not to blow the whistle.

27:56 The easy job in officiating is blowing the whistle. That’s the easy job. Knowing when not to blow it is the difficult one. And I suppose over years with experience and skill and learning from your mistakes, that’s when you get the ability to judge that, really. And because I suppose the type of person I am, my humor, my background, I suppose that’s when I know naturally, I guess, when to say something in the game that is humorous.

28:24 Even though I may not think it’s humorous when I say it, obviously people who do watch the game think it is humorous, and then all of a sudden it’s in social media and over the press where it wasn’t my intention to be like that. I just said it as it was, and I suppose that is a skill that you learn with over the years, I guess. Yeah, I guess you need to be extremely real and authentic in every single second of the game, and the players need to feel that, and then you have to make those calls that the 30 years of experience gives you that right to call.

28:54 You’re right. I think the biggest compliment, or one of the biggest compliments I’ve ever had, but a couple of compliments. I’ve had a lot of, you know, Wales, England for us is the biggest rivalry in rugby. Why is that a big rivalry? If there’s an American watching right now, how would you explain the basis of this rivalry?

29:12 Well, I suppose it would be a bit like, I was out in Canada a few years ago, referee, and I watched the Stanley Cup, Ed Minton was playing against, I can’t remember the name of the American hockey side, there’s huge rivalry between America and Canada in the Stanley Cup, isn’t there? Yeah, in hockey. So it’s a steam in rugby and Wales, that rivalry between the country, you know, you’re playing for your country against another country, England is the massive country with 60 million plus people, Wales is a small country of 3 million, you know, and yet we’re able to beat England, you know, as often as they’ve beaten us over the years, and that’s huge.

29:48 It’s a rivalry that is a friendly rivalry, a sporting rivalry. The sporting arena has this unique way of allowing that rivalry to happen, but without crossing the mark into hatred, and rugby does that very well. It allows that rivalry to happen, where you really want to beat the English as a Welshman, and the English want to beat the Welsh, you know, and the Scottish want to beat the English, and the French when they’re playing the Italians, the Americans when they’re playing the Canadians, Australia when they’re playing New Zealand, but rugby allows that rivalry to be part of the sporting arena, of the sport, and doesn’t allow it to spill over into hatred or anything, and that’s a unique and very, very unique thing.

30:31 So, as a Welshman, it’s a massive rivalry, you know, and one of the biggest compliments I ever had, and I’ve had a few of them really, is when a lot of English supporters have said, you know, I would trust Nigel Owens to referee an England Wales game, and that’s a huge statement, you know, to make, I think, and then the other biggest compliment I had was of Ryan Jones, the ex-Welsh captain, the ex-British lion, and ex-Osprey’s captain, and I remember Ryan telling me after one game, and I thought that is one hell of a compliment, and he said, when we see you refereeing a game, or when we know you’re down to referee a game, myself and the players know we don’t have to worry about the referee today. We don’t have to worry about any decisions, whether they’re for us, against us.

31:22 We can trust you in your ability and your honesty on the field to make the right decisions, and, yes, you make mistakes, as we will as players, but when you’re down on that team sheet to referee a game, I and the team know we don’t have to worry about the referee today. We can just get on a concert in our job, and I thought that is probably one of the nicest compliments that somebody has said to me really in the sporting context of my job as a referee, I guess. Which means they can get on and actually play the game.

31:53 And they can get on, yeah, because sometimes teams will worry about, oh, we got this referee today. How is he going to referee the game and stuff like this? And when somebody says, we don’t have to worry about the referee today, we’ll know he’ll do his best and he’ll do a job. And that is the best compliment you can get as a referee, I think. Talk to me about the electronic replay.

32:13 I think it’s called TMO. It’s happening in some sports, and 30 years from now, will you be a robot, or will there be no referees on the field? Will it all be done digitally? I certainly hope there won’t be a time when it’ll be robots on the field. I certainly hope because rugby in particular needs that element of humanity on the field.

32:34 And as I said earlier to you, in knowing when to blow the whistle and when not to blow the whistle, when you type something into a robot, you will do what this has happened now, so I need to do this. Refereying is not like that, especially in rugby. Refereying needs a degree of empathy, understanding what’s going on, realise why something happened and why you give this decision, knowing when not to give a decision. You know, yeah, I saw the player offside over there, but he had no effect on play whatsoever, so I don’t need to penalise him.

33:05 I’ll have a word with him. Make sure you’re behind the hindmost foot next time, or behind the offside line. But as the game has progressed, the game has gone faster, the ball in playtime is more now. The pressure on us as referees to get those big decisions right is more, and it is humanly impossible sometimes for you to make a decision on the field and get it right, because from where you’re standing and looking at it, it is impossible for you to see exactly what happened, and that’s where technology then, the TMO has come in, where you have an ex-referee sitting in the television van outside the stadium or in the stadium, wherever you may be, looking at all these different angles, and then within the protocol, there’s a protocol, you just can’t go to the TMO if you want to.

33:51 There’s a strict protocol in place when you can use the TMO, and then you can go to the TMO then and tell him, look, can you show me that again, for me to see if I can award this try, or if there was a foul play that I need to deal with? And we need technology in the game. We don’t want to overuse it, because if we overuse it and we come reliant on it, then we lose the ability of the referee to make the decisions, and we can’t lose that from the game, because you want the majority of those decisions made on the field.

34:20 But it is important that technology is part of the game, but it has to be used in the right way and in the right context and not overused. And I think technology is here to stay, I think, and quite rightly so, but we need to be sure that it’s not overused, that it’s only used as a last resort where we absolutely necessarily need it to make a big decision and an important decision. You see a lot on the field. You see personalities. You see personalities.

34:48 You see the way people interact. You see coaches. And we actually had James Haskell in here about a year ago and talked to him. And I think England was in the middle of the Six Nations or Seven Nations going on. And I know they quickly left it, and England changed managers and has been on a great, great streak after that.

35:07 And you must see this up close and see how personalities are managed. And I just wondered if you had thoughts on how a manager can change the course of a team outlook, and just if you had any thoughts on England. James Haskell is a wonderful character, a great player and a wonderful character of the game, and games need characters like that. Have you had run-ins with him? Yeah, but not a run-in in any disagreement or argument.

35:35 You know, a friendly run-in, you know, a little quiet word here with a smile and an acknowledgement by him by a smile, or sometimes even him telling me, who wants a bit of Ashnights? And I’m thinking, okay, you know, maybe it was. So that sort of respectfulness, really, in a run-in, not in a thing disrespectful, and that’s the same for the majority of the players, to be honest, if not all of them, you know. And that’s important because that respect, it’s the main, whatever you talk about for rugby, it all comes back to that main spine of the game, which comes down to respect.

36:07 Hugely, hugely important. And as the management skill goes, you know, every person will react to a different type of manager in one sense. You have sometimes the manager who is, you know, quite upfront and in your face and players respond. And if that works for that team, then that manager is the right guy for that team. If you have another manager who may be a bit more laid back and deals with things differently, a little quiet word here, quiet word there, same with referees.

36:38 You have some referees who are really sort of into the player now. You do that again and you’re off, you know. And then you have another referee who will, by the players, say, hey, I saw you do that. Don’t do it again or you’ll be going. Different type of approach, different type of communication skill.

36:52 Now, both of them may get the message across and different styles are doing it. And I think then, you know, that’s when a team has the right manager, whoever the manager may be, whether it’s Wales, England, Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand, South Africa, France, Italy, any country in the world. You know, they have a manager in or a coach in and his style is what that team responds to or his management team, that team responds to that and they get the results.

37:18 Then that’s what works for them. So, you know, everybody’s different really in their style and in their approach, you know. And then it’s down to you then to use your team, you know, the best way that you can. And are you optimistic on the outlook of England, rugby or can you comment as a referee? Well, not, you know, I couldn’t really comment on England rugby because, you know, I’m a Welshman so, you know, my outlook on Welsh rugby, yes, would be very positive, you know, where we’ve got a very successful Welsh team over the last sort of 10, 15 years since we won the Grand Slam back in 2005 for the first time since 1978, I think it was.

38:00 And since then they won three Grand Slams, another two championships, triple crowns and went to the semi-final of the World Cup in 2011. It’s been a hugely successful period for Welsh rugby. This year’s Six Nations was not as successful as we would have liked it to be, you know. Wales were unlucky. They lost a couple of games which they could have won and then all of a sudden the outcome of the Six Nations is very different from a Welsh perspective.

38:23 So, yeah, you know, I’m hugely positive about the future of Welsh rugby. The Welsh Rugby Union, I think, is doing a lot of good things. You have good people, the right people within the Welsh Rugby Union running the game. You have good people in the regions, in Wales running the game as well. There’s a lot of very good people in Welsh rugby that are putting Welsh rugby first.

38:43 And, you know, I’m very optimistic, really, for the future of Welsh rugby and, you know, the systems that they have in place. There’s always a place to improve and it will improve, you know, with experience and with different ideas and things evolving all the time and everybody bringing something different to the table when people get together. But, yeah, you know, I think Welsh rugby is in a very good place, I think. There’s a lot to be done. There’s a lot we need to do at the community and in the grasslands to get, you know, more people playing the game, you know, at the grassroots and community game as well to keep that going because that, to me, is the most important part of the game, is your community and your grassroots of the game.

39:21 That’s where we all start. That’s where we all come from, wherever you reach in rugby. If you’re a British lier and a Welsh international, you’re a leading point scorer for your club or region, you know, an international referee, you’re a local referee. We all come from the same place and start the same way and it’s hugely important. So, yeah, you know, there’s a lot of things to keep working at and to get better at, but I’m very optimistic, yeah, for the future of Welsh rugby, yes.

39:49 Tell me more about Wales. We’ve had a few famous Welshmen on the show. We had Matthew Pritchard from Dirty Sanchez, fascinating guy. I know you’ve had… Great character.

39:59 He’s a great character. I know you did some things with him. Also, Howard Marks, maybe rest in peace. You know, we had him on here about three years ago. I had an amazing conversation with him.

40:07 One of the first books I read when I got to England was Mr. Nice and it’s an amazing read. You know, the world knows Tom Jones and there’s a few others, but three million people. It’s a small country that obviously punches above its weight. What was it like for Nigel to grow up in Wales?

40:23 What did you see? What would I see if you took me there? What kind of place is it? Rolling hills, a lot of singing, coal mines, sheep, rugby, religion, chapels, everything. Small communities built on the side of steep hills.

40:43 And then in other parts of the country, you know, the agricultural sort of west Wales area of the Towie Valley where there’s rich pasture and a lot of farming community. And then in other parts of Wales, you see north Wales and mid Wales, beautiful part of the country where you’ll have the slate mines. South Wales then, you’d have the industrial, you know, when I was growing up, you still had a lot of steel works, a lot of coal mines, you know, and then it started closing sort of mid eighties onwards then and I don’t think there’s a coal mine left in Wales now or if there is, there could be one or two small private ones, you know, but growing up in Wales, it was, you know, a land of song and rolling hills and rugby players as heroes and people like Tom Jones, you know, who was a world, you know, national treasure of Wales, world renown and people like that.

41:36 So Wales growing up was sort of many, many wonderful things and probably one thing that would set Wales apart from a lot of the other countries is it’s still, it’s language, you know, we still have our Welsh language. I speak Welsh first language. I couldn’t speak English until I was six years of age until I learnt it in school and we’re about 20% of the population still speak Welsh and, you know, we need to at least keep it at that but hopefully more importantly, keep growing at that and hopefully it will grow because of the education system in Wales now, there’s a lot of Welsh medium schools, so that is obviously helping a lot of industry in Wales require people to be able to speak both languages and everything like that.

42:21 Why is that important? It’s hugely important because I think, you know, if you lose your language, then you lose, I think, the heart of your country, I think. That is what really makes your country beat and what really sets your country apart, I think, is your own language and when you lose that language, it’s gone forever and, you know, you’ve lost the heart of your country then, I think. It doesn’t make me any more Welsh than a Welsh person in Wales who doesn’t speak Welsh but I am very proud that I speak Welsh and it’s hugely important that we keep the language alive, I think.

43:00 And when you, it is difficult to explain to somebody if they can’t understand Welsh or can’t read Welsh, when you listen to some of the Welsh hymns, the Welsh poems and verses, you know, the tales and tradition written in Welsh, it’s a wonderful and beautiful language and it’s hard to, when you can understand or speak Welsh and you read this language and you listen to the songs and listen to the words, it’s absolutely unbelievable. There is nothing like it in the world as far as I’m concerned. Culture is embedded in language, right?

43:36 It’s hugely, hugely important, I think. And it’s a part of your identification, you know. When you travel around the world, people always ask you, well, you’ve got your own language in Wales, haven’t you? You know, tell me something in Welsh. And then I tell them the name of the longest place in the world, which is in North Wales, which is…

44:00 And people are amazed, you know. And some people go, wow, you know, is that your language? And they go, that sounds beautiful. I’ve not heard of it, but it sounds beautiful. And I really, really can’t say how important the language is to me, really.

44:14 It’s hugely important. And as I said earlier, when you sort of, I just, you sit back sometimes and you listen to some music and some Welsh words, you know, some of the hymns and traditional songs and some of the traditional poems and verses written by, you know, the poems, poets and stuff in Wales of the years. And it’s absolutely an unbelievable experience and the words are so, so beautiful and mean so much. Okay. And Nigel, growing up, was a big, strong, tough guy, rugby player?

44:46 No, I wasn’t. I was a very, very, very poor rugby player. Played in school, started refereeing when I was about 16 years of age, by chance. I played full back in school, which is, for those of, you know, who don’t understand rugby, you play number 15, so you’re the last man behind everybody else and you’re supposed to catch the ball when somebody kicks it and when somebody’s beaten everybody else, you’re the last line of defence to tackle him. And I wasn’t very good at catching the ball and I wasn’t very good at tackling.

45:19 I was okay running with it. And we were playing a game last game of the season. We lost every game. I went to my sort of a school, a small Welsh medium school, which was a growing school. It’s a bigger school now, and the Welsh language there has grown.

45:33 But when it started in 1983, when the education system changed from the old grammar school system to going to a Welsh school or doing education through the language of English, I went to the Welsh school. And we were a very small school at that time, but it’s now, you know, one of the biggest schools in the area now. And a hugely successful school as well. And we had a bare 15 playing the game. We didn’t have any subs sometimes.

45:56 And we’d lost all our games. And last game of the season, we were playing against us called Griffith Jones in St. Claire’s in Kamalynshire. And my mate, Wayne Thomas, was playing centre. My other mate then, one of my best mates, Craig Bunnell, and Wayne Thomas, my best mate as well, was the captain.

46:13 And Wayne Thomas scored this try underneath the post. So when you score the try, you take the conversion in line with where you scored the try. So this now should be straightforward, quick kick, 25 yards back on the post, right in front of the post. All I could do was kick it straight through. The score was 12 all.

46:29 If I kick this, we win the game. Last game of the season, our first win. I’ll be a hero in school. So I told Craig Bunnell, the captain, you know, I’ll take this now. So I lined it up right in front of the post.

46:40 And I went to kick it between the post. And it went about 45 yards to the corner flag direction. Nowhere near the middle of the post, I sliced it. And my mates didn’t speak me for a couple of days because we’d now drawn this game. We should have won it.

46:55 And John Bynan, the late John Bynan, he was a wonderful guy. And John Bynan told me, Nigel, he said, oh, for God’s sake. He said, will you go on referee or something? Because I’d missed this kick. And I said, all right, okay.

47:09 Then I’ll come and help out. So the following week, I went to help out refereeing some age-grade games in school and under 12s and under 13s games. And I enjoyed that. And that’s how refereeing started, really, just by pure chance like that. So I can probably safely say, if I hadn’t missed that kick, I probably wouldn’t have started refereeing.

47:29 And I probably wouldn’t be talking to you today, probably. And I tell a lot of people this, you know, sometimes in life, you get opportunities when you least expect it. The most important thing to do is when you get those opportunities, give it your best. And as long as you’ve done that, nobody can point the finger at you. You can have no regrets.

47:52 And it’s much better to look back on your life in 40, 50 years’ time and be able to say, I had the opportunity. I give it my best, but it wasn’t quite good enough for it. It wasn’t for me than look back and say you didn’t have the opportunity at all. And refereeing started for me just by pure chance. And that is one of the biggest lessons in life, I think.

48:11 When you get those opportunities, they will come along when you least expect them. Grasp them with both hands and give them your best because then you can have no regrets then. And that came what looked like as a failure took you on this route to this massive amount of success. It did, yeah. It started refereeing locally, then in my local leagues, and then progressed then.

48:34 Somebody would come and watch you and give you some feedback and mark your performances and then the better you perform, the better standard of the game you get. And then you start climbing the ladder until you reach your potential and your ability. And thankfully, with all the help I’ve had with a lot of people over the years, far too many people to thank, really. I’ve been able to reach that goal of my potential and ability. And so that was 16. You started refereeing then.

49:03 What was then to come as you stayed in Wales, I guess, as the years progressed? What were the teens and early 20s like there? What were they like for you as you remembered? I enjoyed school. I didn’t enjoy it at first.

49:16 When I was in the Gwenrath Grammar School at about 12 years of age, my first year there, I was bullied in school. That was a very difficult time for about six, seven months where I wouldn’t go to school, I’d pretend to be ill, scared to go to school, and that affected my education in that year. There’s no doubt about that. And people don’t realize sometimes how one’s life can be affected when kids in particular are bullied. And it’s a huge problem.

49:45 And I’m a patron of Bullies Out Charity because I think it’s hugely important that we, sometimes people bully people without knowing they do so. They think it’s funny, they think it’s a joke, and that person doesn’t find it that way and can find it difficult to deal with that. So it’s just educating people, I think. And look, I know you’re trying to be funny, but that may not be the right thing to say here and now. So just think before you say something.

50:10 Other people are just bad people, just nasty people who just want to bully people. And it was a very difficult time. And the biggest part of when you’re being bullied is you feel it’s a sense of shameless. You feel it’s your own fault. And that’s why a lot of people don’t speak up when they’re bullied, because you feel you’re a weak person, but you’re actually not.

50:30 To actually speak up about it will show a great strength, more strength than any bully that bullies you. And then I was bullied, it was a very difficult time, but then I left the Gwendreth Grammar School, went to the Welsh Medium School with my friends, the bullying stopped, because in the end, I told some of my mates what was going on, and they actually found out what was going on, and they pretty much told the bully where to go, and it finished like that, thankfully. And I went through those friends to my survival school, the Welsh Medium School, and then when I started refereeing there, I left school then.

51:03 After doing my end-of-year exams, I wanted to go back to school to do A-levels and go to university, but I wasn’t really clever enough, to be honest. I wasn’t intelligent enough to do that. And plus, I hadn’t really put in as much effort I should have done into my education, really, because I was enjoying school so much, just mucking about as a lot of us do as kids in school. And I went back to school to reset, and then wanted to go back to do my A-levels, which is further education within school before you go on to university.

51:36 And the headmaster said one day in school, and I went to get the rugby ball to go out in the yard to play with my mates during lunch break. And the headmaster said, oh, as a joke, he said, we’re going to have to close the school tomorrow. He said, because we haven’t got a caretaker. He’s gone off-hill with a hernia operation. I can’t do, how can anybody do the job?

51:56 So, you know, make the most of playing rugby today. And I said, as a joke, that was an easy enough job, the caretaker, I’ll do that for you. On the following day I go to school, and the headmaster calls me to his office. You know, the old Tanoi system goes, Nigel Owens to the headmaster’s office, please. And all my mates, you know, what the hell have you done again now?

52:12 Because I was always mischievous in school and mucking about, you know, and the headmaster’s room. He said, Arwyn Thomas, a wonderful character of a man, great headmaster, wonderful character. And he said, I’ve been thinking what you said yesterday. He said, you can do the job if you want it. He said, you can come in in the morning, stoke the fires, make sure the boilers are on, and water’s hot, open up the school, then lock up in the night after the cleaners are finished, and, you know, and then you can carry on with education in the day.

52:43 And he said, if the job, if you want it, it’s yours for six months. Well, the caretaker was off. And I thought, all right, I’ll do that then. So I went home and told my mum and dad, and said, oh, that’s a good idea. Can you imagine a 16-year-old boy, you know, or the headmaster off from the 16-year-old boy today, or do you want to do the caretaker’s job?

52:59 It would never happen today, but it would happen, and it gave me a wonderful opportunity. And I did that for six months, and I left school, went to work on a farm for a couple of years, and then I went back to school then to work as a technician, then in the same school when I was a pupil and when I was a caretaker, for the best part of 12 and a half, 13 years, and still I started refereeing then as a full-time job as a professional referee back in 2001 for the Welsh Tribune, where I’m still employed today as a professional referee. So some of my late teens and early 20s was brought up working on a farm, working in school, going to young farmers’ clubs, being part of the community and stuff where I was brought up in.

53:42 So it was a wonderful upbringing I have until I came across that sort of difficult time in my life then. Right. You’ve struggled with some issues with bulimia and kind of body image and steroids and things like that, and I was wondering if you could talk on that, because a lot of men I think suffer from these things, and yet we don’t talk about it very much. It’s a great shame, really, because I’ve learned from my own experience is the hard way that talking about things is the best way, or certainly one of the best ways to overcome whatever issues you have in life, whether it’s your sexuality in my case, you know, marital relationship problems, work problems, money problems, whatever those worries are.

54:22 Until you accept it and talk about it, it’s going to be very difficult for you to deal with it and to overcome it. And that’s why I think a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of young men in particular, and a lot of older men as well in that sort of age bracket, you know, the sort of 30s, 40s, take their own lives because they get to a dark place where they see no other way out and because they feel it’s a sense of weakness to talk about it. And it’s not to talk about something.

54:55 It’s a sign of great strength, really. And in my sort of late teens, when I was 18, 19, I started realizing I was a bit different to the person that I’d been brought up to be. You know, I was brought up by my mum and dad. I was the only child. I brought up in a small community, everybody close-knit, not your family living around you.

55:20 You brought up, you go to school, go to Sunday school, went to chapel. You know, you get a girlfriend, you get married, you get kids, you become grandparents, and that’s the world that evolves. And I don’t see nothing wrong with that upbringing. I wouldn’t want my upbringing to be any different. But at 19 years of age, I started realizing something not right here.

55:41 I felt there’s something wrong here. I was finding myself attracted to men. And this was not what was supposed to happen. This is what not what I was brought up and told that life would be like. And I was finding it very difficult because it was something totally alien to me.

56:00 I’d never met a gay person. Didn’t know what a gay person looked like. The only gay person I could relate to were some of the very camp characters that were on the television sitcoms, mostly back in that time. And when you’re watching these programs and thinking, well, that’s what people say a gay person is, it’s not me. I don’t look like that.

56:20 I don’t behave like that. And there’s nothing wrong with the way they behave. But that’s not me. So I found it very difficult, something very alien. And I was fighting against it for years.

56:30 And it was getting me down. It was making me depressed. I was worried what people are going to say if they find out because there was nobody out that time. And I used to hear the general talk when people used to mention gay people. It wasn’t spoken about in a very nice way.

56:46 And it used to make me really sort of feel sick. When I heard the word gay use and people say, oh, don’t speak to him. He’s gay. He’s a puff and stuff like this. And these were some people that I knew.

56:57 Some of my friends were speaking like this at that time because it was a different era back then. And I was making me feel really sick in the stomach, you know, when worrying. And I was quite a beast at the time. It was about 16 and a half stone. It would probably be something like maybe 115, 118, 120 kilos, I think.

57:16 I was quite heavy, overweight. And so dealing with my sexuality, living a lie, I made myself ill to lose weight. I became bulimic. And then after becoming bulimic and going from something like 120, 25 kilos, whatever it was, kgs, I lost weight and came down to 11 and a half stone, something like 65 kgs or whatever it was, you know, 60 kgs. I was really thin, really pale, not looking well, not feeling well.

57:46 So I started going to the gym. And then in the gym I started taking steroids to sort of put some muscle on to think that I would look better and maybe men would find me attractive if I looked more muscular and looked better. And all of a sudden, you know, over the time I was 24, 25 years of age, I was suffering from mental health issues, very depressed in a very, very dark place, fighting against my sexuality, becoming somebody I didn’t want to be, bulimic.

58:12 You know, eating food and then making myself sick afterwards. And then hooked on steroids, you know, and one of the side effects of steroids is, you know, it can make you even more depressed than you are amongst the other side effects it has. And I was in a very, very bad place and I thought, well, I’d read somewhere or hear somewhere somebody say something or read somewhere that you could get mechanically castrated, which then would take away your sexual urges.

58:41 And I thought that me being gay was a sexual urge and nothing else. So I went to the doctor and I asked him, look, you know, I think I’m gay, I want to be chemically castrated because I don’t want to be gay. And the doctor told me, it doesn’t work like that, he said, you know, being gay is who you are. It’s not because of a sexual urge. And this was a Welsh doctor was able to be that common sense.

59:06 Yeah, my local doctor that I went to, yeah. And then sort of when I left the doctor, I was actually feeling worse because I thought this was an avenue out for me now to get chemically castrated, but that avenue was taken away from me. And then I thought, well, you know, over the next sort of eight months, 12 months, you know, I got deeper and deeper into a state of depression. And I thought there’s only one way out now. There’s only one cure, if you like, for what I felt at the time I needed.

59:38 Wrongly at the time, but I felt there’s only one way out. And that is to end my life. And I did something one night which I would regret for the rest of my life. It’s something that I now have to live with for the rest of my life. I left a note from my mum and dad and said that, I didn’t tell them why.

1:00:02 I just left an order and said, look, I can’t carry on living anymore, I’m sorry, and just said goodbye. And I’ll never, ever forgive myself for what I put my mum and dad through that night when they must have woken up in the morning and read that note and must have thought they’re never going to see their only child ever again. I’ll never, ever forgive myself for that. I’ve got to live with that for the rest of my life. So you don’t want to forgive yourself?

1:00:28 You’ll never forgive yourself for what you did to your parents? No, I’ll never forgive myself for what I put them through, which must have been absolute hell for them. I left the house with a couple of boxes of paracetamols and a bottle of whiskey. And as I used to work on the farm, I had a Lord Dead shotgun in the house. Well, shotgun, I Lord Dead it, and I left the house.

1:00:49 And I walked around the small village of Murith Karig where I was brought up, seeing everything for the last time really, just looking at everything and pretty much saying goodbye to everything and everybody in my own way. And I left a note then for my, I took the paracetamols and sort of on top of this mountain looking down at where I was living and what I was brought up. And what actually I took to save, what I actually took to take my own life actually saved me in the end because I overdosed in the paracetamols and slipped into coma because if that had happened, there’s no doubt I would have pulled the trigger because I was intent on doing that.

1:01:39 And my mom and dad obviously phoned the police and then people came out looking for me and the police helicopter came searching and they found me, but they couldn’t come anywhere near me because all they could see was me lying there with a shotgun on my chest pointing to underneath my chin. So they knew I was still alive, but they didn’t know if I was conscious or not. And if they were going to come anywhere near me, what was I going to do with a gun? Not to myself, but to them as well.

1:02:05 So you were serious about this. Yeah, I honestly thought that this is the way out and there’s no coming back from this, but I slipped into that coma and got airlifted to hospital and spent a few days in intensive care and when I came around, the doctor told me, look, he said, another 20 minutes Nigel and we wouldn’t have been able to save you. You’re a very, very lucky young man. And I was, I was very, very, very lucky. I had a second chance.

1:02:33 Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t get those second chances, but I did and my mum and dad came to see me and family and friends and when they all left, then my mum came back after everybody left and she said to me, look, she said, I don’t know why you’ve done it, but if you ever do anything like that again, then you take me and your dad with you because we don’t want to carry on our life without you. You know, you mean the world to us and my mum left and I sat up in bed. It’s a heavy thing to hear from your mum.

1:03:07 It is, you know, that really was, that was what changed my life. That moment because I sat up in bed and I cried, I cried like a baby in bed for four hours, I think and I said to myself, those words that my mum said, I’ve got to, I’ve got to grow up here. I’ve got to accept who I am. This is who I am and that’s when my moment, the moment my life changed in accepting who I was and that I think is the biggest challenge that anybody comes across in their life. In my case, it was accepting my sexuality, you know, roughly in the World Cup final, a year and a half ago in Twickenham between Australia and New Zealand, you know, in front of 85,000 people and millions of people watching at home, as I said earlier, with a massive pressure on you, was nothing compared to having to accept who I was and what I’d gone through my life then and until you accept that there is something a matter, something that’s making you feel down, something that’s causing the mental health issues in your mind, whatever it is, sexuality in my case, dealing with it, fighting against it, not accepting it.

1:04:25 In other people’s face, it could be, you know, relationship problems, money problems, school problems, you know, worrying what exams as a teenager, whatever they are, until you accept there is something that you need to address in your life. Then you’re not going to get out of that. You’re not going to be able to do something about it. I accepted now that I, who I was. So I was then able to move on to the next stage and that was difficult, you know, the next five or six, seven years until I actually came out was still difficult.

1:04:55 I was still living a lie, not telling anybody. And here I was, being brought up by my mum and dad to be honest, you know, to respect people, to say your pleas and thank yous, you know, honesty and integrity and here I was lying to the people that mattered more to me than anything in the world and that was difficult. But it wasn’t as difficult as dealing with a sexuality and dealing with accepting who I was. And when you finally did come out to the sport, and again, I think people find it fascinating because you’re on this field full of alpha males in an alpha male charge situation and people think, oh man, that might be difficult after you come out.

1:05:40 Did that cross your mind? Or did you know that it wasn’t going to be? No, I didn’t know it wasn’t going to be because after I accepted who I was, then it was still difficult for the next nearly nine years, I think it was before I actually came out, 10 years in fact, eight to nine years. I didn’t know how rugby was going to react or more importantly at the early stage of how my mum and dad was going to react, you know. There’s a year ago, a year and a half ago, I had a young lad of 16 years of age contact me, wanting to meet up to have a chat because his mum and dad had chucked him out of the house because they’d found out he was gay.

1:06:22 This was only a year and a half ago. I don’t know his parents well, but I know of them and his parents go to church every Sunday and here they are chucking their own son out on the street because he’s gay here to go live with his auntie for a while. And that’s only 18 months ago. So, you know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I didn’t know if my mum and dad was going to do that to me. You know, I should have known better.

1:06:51 In hindsight, they would never have chucked me out, but I didn’t know at the time. And that was a worry and that’s why I didn’t tell them. And then I didn’t know how the rugby world was going to react. And that was, you know, that was still not putting me in a state of depression when I was before, but still keeping me down, still the worry in the back of your mind. And unless you are happy within yourself, as a person, happy within what you do in your life, happy in the environment that you work in or live in, the community you live in, unless you are happy within yourself and allowed to be yourself, you can’t excel and be the best you want to be.

1:07:34 And I was not refereeing well because I was reffing well, then not so well because still from time to time, I was just worried thinking, is this refereeing going to finish? Am I going to have to make a decision of being who I am and giving up refereeing or living a lie to carry on my refereeing? And nobody should have to make that decision. Nobody should have to choose about being who they are or being able to continue in the sport that they love or working in the environment they work in.

1:08:04 Nobody should have to live that lie with that worry. But at the time, I felt I had to. And then I realized performances weren’t good enough and I was pretty much told, look, I had one or two internationals to referee and I didn’t referee them well. I did okay, but not good enough. And I was told, look, if your performance is not going to improve, you’re not going to be international referee anymore.

1:08:27 And I had the referees manager at the time, Paddy O’Brien, who said, look, I’ve got 16 international referees in the autumn internationals, which is the November tests in the northern hemisphere here. I’ve got 15 games. So one referee is going to miss out. And unfortunately, your performances are the worst of all the referees in the last couple of games. So I’m sorry, you’re not going to have a game.

1:08:55 And I thought, I’ve blown it. You know, my career has ended before it started because I am still living this lie. So I’m not able to be myself. And I’m, you know, if you’re not mentally in the right place, you’re not going to be physically, and you’re not going to be mentally prepared for the job you have to do. And the biggest challenge of refereeing is your concentration and your focus as well.

1:09:14 Being present. You have your presence as well. And not doubting yourself and thinking about the future. You need to be there in the moment. You need to be in the moment.

1:09:22 And you need to be refereeing that moment. You know, you can’t have anything else from the outside putting pressure on you to do any different in that. But there it was in my case. And then Paddy said to me, he said, a couple of weeks later, he’d run me back and said, Nigel, look, there’s another game come in. Argentina playing Samoa in Buenos Aires, the first week of December.

1:09:43 So, you know, you’re going to referee this game. And he said, you know, you need to do well in it. And I thought, right, I’ve got about five, six months, five months to prepare for this game. And I knew I was physically, I was fine, I was fit, I was healthy. But mentally, I was not.

1:10:01 And I needed to, I need to get rid of this little thing that’s still eating away at me, you know, the back of my mind, this worry. And I thought, right, I’m going to have to come out. I don’t know if I’m going to have to give up refereeing. So I went to meet Bobby Ehrman, who was brilliant with me, my referee’s manager, and the Welsh Rugby Union. The Welsh Rugby Union were hugely supportive back then, as they are now, as the world of refereeing and the world of rugby has been as well.

1:10:30 Which is counterintuitive. It is, exactly. So all the worry I had was needless worry in one sense, but I didn’t know that at the time. You think that’s true about most human worry? Is it 90% of the time we think everyone’s going to think X and most of the time it’s in our minds?

1:10:46 You’re right. You know, most of the time you think people are going to think X and they’re actually thinking Y, which is a good thing. But we don’t see it that way. And that’s why when you talk about it, you get to realise that people don’t think of X, you’re thinking about the thinking about you or something else in totally different light. And I told my mum, first of all, that was very difficult to do, but I told her and, you know, her love for me.

1:11:13 And I let her tell my dad a couple of days later, but nothing changed between us. They loved me as their son, as they always did. My dad still loves me now the same way as he’s always did. My mum passed away nine years ago, unfortunately, which was a very difficult time and a huge loss in my life. I think when, you know, when you lose your father, you lose a huge, huge part of your life.

1:11:37 But then I think when you lose your mum, you lose everything because, you know, there is a special bond, you know, the bond between me and my dad is special and thankfully my dad is still with me and I wouldn’t have got through a lot of things without my dad. But my mum was a huge blow as well in losing her, but thankfully my dad is still here, and I hope he’ll be here for a long time again. And because, you know, even at this stage in my life, you know, at 45 years of age and everything I’ve accomplished, I need my dad. I need the support, you know, the family support because it doesn’t matter what I’ve achieved in life, in refereeing or in anything else, the TV work that I do, you know, was a dream and a kid and you want to be on TV, you know, and refereeing the World Cup Final and anything else that I’ve achieved and whatever that I go on to achieve from here, none of that really matters in the context of what is the most important thing in your life.

1:12:39 And the most important thing in your life is your family. That is the most important thing. And I’ve been very fortunate to have the most wonderful of family and I’m sure many, many, and most people can say the same things, but I’ve been very fortunate to have the most wonderful of family, which I wouldn’t have gone through all this without them. And with them, I got through that difficult time with their help and support, friends as well and the rugby community as well.

1:13:08 So it was almost rugby that got you through this because if you hadn’t been worried about losing your job there, you might not have come out then. So in a weird way, it kind of pulled you through. It certainly did. And that’s why I’ve said this before, I owe more to rugby than rugby will ever, ever owe to me. A lot of people would disagree with that statement.

1:13:29 It doesn’t matter, as I said earlier, it doesn’t matter who you are, you know, or where you come from, what country you come from, what the color of your skin is, whatever your sexual orientation is, whatever your religious beliefs are, your political beliefs. No, no, that should matter one bit. As long as you are a decent human being, you should be treated the same. No better, no worse. There’s one thing that I really get annoyed at is that people feel they should be treated different because they are different.

1:14:06 No, as long as you are a decent human being, you should be treated the same. No better, no worse. And that’s what rugby has allowed me to be. Rugby has allowed me to be myself and rugby has treated me just as anybody else. It hasn’t treated me any differently.

1:14:21 You know, when I refereed that World Cup final 18 months ago, I refereed it because I was the best referee in the world. That’s why I was appointed to that game. And I don’t like saying that because I’m not that big head and in thinking that, but that’s the fact of it. That’s why I was appointed to the game because I was the best referee in the world. I wasn’t appointed in that game because world rugby thought, we’ll tick a box here, you know, we’ll have the first open gay man in professional sport, first open gay, in rugby, sorry, the first open, the first gay referee to referee a rugby World Cup final.

1:14:55 You know, this will look good on, you know, on our inclusiveness and diversity within our sport. And if that was the case, then I would have told them, I’m sorry, I’m not refereeing the final. Give it to somebody who deserves to do it. And that’s why I think it’s hugely important that, you know, it doesn’t matter who you are, that you were treated the same. There’s no other ticking of the boxes, you know, because, yeah, he’s gay, let’s tick this box, we’ll give him the job.

1:15:22 No, as long as everybody gets the same opportunity, and that’s what rugby has allowed me to do, it’s given me the opportunity to be myself. It’s, as you said, it’s helped me sort of come out and drag myself through those difficult times. And there is no doubt that, you know, as I said, I do. I owe more to my family and friends and the sport of rugby than they or rugby will ever, ever owe to me. Ultimately, what was the reaction when you finally came out everywhere?

1:15:54 I mean, what was the surprise or the disappointment? There was no disappointment. Certainly, I didn’t come across it. There was the odd negativeness, you know, and there still is now, but you can count it on one hand, the negative things, and to be honest, you know, the type of people that have those negative things are the people who shouldn’t really matter in your life or anybody else’s life, and that’s an important lesson, I think, for everybody. If there’s somebody in your life that is getting you down or speaking to you or treating you differently, or, you know, those people are not important in your life, you know, don’t have them part of your life.

1:16:30 And the positiveness of the response within rugby, within my community of where I was brought up, the small village of Manikari, where I was brought up, where I still live now, just a mile down the road, the positiveness of it was hugely, hugely, hugely heartwarming and lifting, really, to me as a person, and responses from players, spectators, pundits, everybody involved in the game of rugby was absolutely amazing, really. Some of the greatest players in the world, you know, came up to me and said, look, you know, we’re very proud of what you have done, it’s a very brave thing you’ve done, and we support you 100%. That meant a lot.

1:17:14 Even those little things, you know, when even the biggest da has in world rugby, when they even come to speak to you, knowing that you’re gay, they don’t have to say anything about my sexuality, and a lot of them didn’t, but just came to speak to you as a normal person, as a referee, you know, they don’t want to have a pint to do afterwards. They will never, never know how much that helped me in getting through the most difficult times in my life, really. I wouldn’t have gone through it without it.

1:17:43 There is no doubt about that. I had Will Young in here, who came out around 2005, you know, really early days, the pop singer, and I was talking to him about how just different it was back then. He came out around 2007, you know, and I think people forget how the landscape has changed so significantly. You know, these days we talk about, you know, all sorts of things. There’s transgender.

1:18:08 There’s all these other different types of people and their sexualities, and it’s more welcome. Like you said, this young man you spoke about, it’s hard to believe that his parents would have that reaction in this day and age, but you did this 10 years earlier, where the world wasn’t as progressive. You know, I guess that’s something you think about sometimes, but when you did it, it was even harder to do than, say, today. It was, but I didn’t really think of it in that sense.

1:18:34 It was hard, though, and actually dealing with my sexuality before accepting it, you know, it was even 10 years before that, so it was even more difficult back then. No role models. No role models. I used to sneak away from my friends on a Saturday night to go to a gay club in Swansea, and I used to feel sick and they’re worried. What if somebody sees me?

1:18:53 You know, and I remember that one night, somebody walked into a girl. She walked into the gay bar. She was in school where I worked a couple of years earlier. She’d left school now, and she walked in this gay bar. I physically went and sit in the toilet, and I thought, oh, come on, I’m going to get found out, and I went out to fire an exit on the back and went home.

1:19:14 And that was, you know, 10 years before then, 15 years before I actually came out, if not a little bit more. And then, you know, as you said, 2005, 2007, when Will Young came out, whenever it was, you know, things were even different back then to what they are now as well. And it goes a bit back to my refereeing, I guess, in my personality and stuff and what I do on the field. You know, as I said to you earlier, I don’t go on that field to do or say anything because I think people want to hear this or this will be good.

1:19:48 I do it because I feel that’s what needs to be said and said in the right manner, in the right context, in the right way. And my dealing with my sexuality and the coming out was the same. I didn’t come out because I want to be a role model. I didn’t want to come out because I want people to look up to me. I didn’t come out for any other reason than I suppose a selfish reason in one sense.

1:20:13 I came out because I had to do it for my own self, my own well-being physically, but probably more because I was still suffering from bulimia then. So mentally more than ever, for my own mental health well-being, I needed to accept for who I was and for my own performances as a referee. So that’s why I came out. So I didn’t really think much about it of, you know, yes, I was worried how people can accept me, but it had gone to the stage, well, this is what I need to do and I need to do it.

1:20:45 I didn’t think what would happen after that, you know. The only thing I worried me was, are my parents going to accept me and is rugby going to accept me? And then as the years went by, you know, the amount of people that have sent me written letters from parents, from young people, older people, messages on Facebook and direct messages on Twitter and stuff like that and people who come up to you in the street or on a night out and have said, look, you’ll never believe how much your story has helped me.

1:21:15 Because I went through what you were going through, not always with the sexuality, but dealing with mental health issues and depressions and stuff like that. And then, you know, I don’t sit here now and think, yeah, you know, I did that because I want people to come up and tell me that. I just did it because it was right for me at the time and by doing that, it has obviously helped other people and I don’t go around. I haven’t come here today to speak to you about personal things in my life, dark times in my life because, oh, I want people to say how wonderful that was.

1:21:47 That’s not the reason I’ve come here to speak to you today. I’ve come here because I know that it helps people. I know as well. Unfortunately, it hasn’t helped people because even when there’s, you know, people I’ve spoken to and people that I know but haven’t spoken to me about it, people I know who’ve taken their own lives. So there’s a lot of people it hasn’t helped, but there’s a lot of people it has helped as well.

1:22:12 And, you know, talking about this is not easy. It’s difficult churning up these very, very personal things to put it out there for anybody in the world in one sense today to know about Nigel Owens and what he’s been through and to comment on it. But I do it because not that I want to pat on the back for it, not because I want any more followers on Twitter, not because I want to make any headlines out of it. I do it because I really know and really believe that it is helping.

1:22:50 And if it just helps to feel that something, but I know that the more that I talk about it, it’ll hopefully encourage other people to talk about it. And the more people who talk about the mental health issues they have or whatever it may be, whatever the reason for it, then the more people are going to realize that mental health is not a stigma. It is something that can affect any one of us at any time in our life. And even when you’ve suffered from the past, it doesn’t mean you won’t suffer from again.

1:23:20 But by knowing that it is not something to be ashamed of, that is something that people will then realize it’s good that people talk about it. And the more people that talk about it, not only will it help themselves, it’ll help other people, it’ll help other people understand that this is not a stigma, it is a reality that people are going through. People are going through hell, you know, and people are going through such hell that they’re actually taking their own lives.

1:23:47 And that is a very, very sad thing. So, you know, it’s important for me to talk about this, not because I want to, because I’m doing it because I really do believe that it is helping people, and I really do hope that it does. And so people should take the lesson of communicate this feeling to somebody, talk about it, talk it through, and get these feelings out there, because, you know, we could have lost you that day, and now you’re a world-class referee inspiring people, and so these people should know that there is a way out, but it starts with communication, right?

1:24:23 Communication, I think, is the key of a lot of things, you know. Probably communication is one of the key things. One of the key things in my refereeing is my communication. Whether some people don’t like it, but it’s what’s made me who I am today, and the success I’ve had in refereeing, and the respect I’ve earned, and the respect I give to people in the game, relationship communications, trust, honesty, integrity, you know. All this is hugely important, and the key of everything is communication.

1:24:53 And sometimes people will comment on something they’ve done or said by reading a headline or reading what’s written down there, and they take in a total different context of what it’s meant. I never like having a conversation with somebody via email or via text. If I got something to say to somebody, whether it’s, you know, a pat on the back and encourage somebody and say, well done, and to acknowledge that somebody’s done well, or whether it is to tell somebody, if I’m doing some coaching with some referee to tell him, look, you know, that wasn’t good enough, you always should have the communication.

1:25:30 Speak to people. Pick up the phone and have the conversation, because when you write something down on an email or a piece of paper or a text, the person reading that will read it in the way that they want to read it, and maybe read in a totally different way than what you mean by it. And so communication, I think, is the key to pretty much every door. In sport, in the workplace, and in life. Communicate to people.

1:26:00 Speak to people, you know. And that is, I think, the most important thing to get over any sort of mental health issues you have, or any depression, or anything you are worried about. To get over that is to talk about it. It is the old saying, you know, that everybody is quite familiar with, and everybody probably says it from time to time. It’s good to talk.

1:26:25 Believe me, it is good to talk. You’ve got me thinking about all the relationships in my life and how much I need to go talk to them more. So, you know, thank you for that. Where are we in the state of people coming out in other sports? Because I can’t, for the life of me, name a gay American football player.

1:26:43 You know, that’s a huge sport in the States. A gay mixed martial arts fighter or boxer, or even a gay footballer or soccer player. I mean, there’s a few out there, but it still feels like we got a long way to go on some of these male, macho-dominated sports. And I would have never thought rugby might have been at the forefront, you know, for this movement, but maybe it is. I think you’re right in one sense.

1:27:05 You know, there are people out there. There’s a professional boxer out there, with the most respect to him. I can’t remember his name off the top of my head. There are people out in different sports. But there isn’t somebody, like in soccer, for example, there isn’t a big star, yeah.

1:27:19 And that’s what everybody’s waiting. Everybody’s waiting to see who the first big star in football coming out is going to be and how the world and the media is going to react to it. And I honestly believe this, that the majority of the world and the people within soccer and any other sport as well will react hugely positively. There will be a minority. There’s a minority of bad people in every walks of life.

1:27:44 But the majority will outweigh them by a long, long way. And it will be hugely positive. But everybody’s waiting. That puts extra pressure on that person who’s thinking, oh, do I really want to be the first? Do I really want to deal with this pressure of, you know, being the first person and everything that’s going to come with it?

1:28:03 And I also think it’s a very personal thing as well. You can’t tell someone else that they have to come out. No, you can’t. And that’s an important thing to remember. That’s a huge important thing to remember.

1:28:13 That whoever it is that they are allowed to do so in their own time and for the right reason, and they do it for themselves, I came out because I did it for myself. I didn’t come out because the world needed a professional person to come out in rugby or the first openly gay referee to come out. That’s not why I did it. And no soccer player or any other sport should come out because the world needs them. The world does need them.

1:28:37 The world needs role models in every walk of life. And the more role models there are for the younger generation in particular, and the better our society and our communities, and the better this world will be. But what a lot of people are struggling, I was struggling until I accepted at 26 years of age, I was struggling with who I was. So there was no way I could have come out before 26 years of age because I was fighting against it myself. So there’s a reason as well where there’s a lot of people not come out in sport because a lot of those people who tend to be in the peak of your careers in most of those sports, will be from your late teens to your late 20s, maybe early 30s.

1:29:18 That’s when most people peak in sport, or a lot of sports. And a lot of those people who are in those sports are not coming out, a lot of them if they are like me, and a lot of them will be, are fighting against it themselves. They are maybe becoming somebody who I don’t want to be gay. And that’s the way I was. And there is no doubt.

1:29:40 There’s a lot of people like that. So that’s the reason why a lot of people are not out. And you do tend to see then a few more people coming out after their careers have come to an end or are coming to an end. Because by that time, they, like me, have accepted who they were. They’ve now found the sort of courage and stuff over the next few years to sort of finally tell people.

1:30:02 So I was 26 years of age and I accepted who I was. I was 33 or 34 years of age before I actually came out. So you put into the context of the sports people by the time they accept, and not because they are different to the norms, of course they are. But a lot of them, by the time they accept, they’ll probably be the mid-20s. By the time they’ve actually decided, right, now is the time I’m feeling strong enough to do something about this or I have to do something about it, they’re probably in the early to mid-30s.

1:30:31 And by that time, their careers are over or coming to an end. So there’s more than one reason why people haven’t come out in sport. And yes, as well, it’s only the last few years that we’ve made huge grounds, like the great work that organizations like Stonewall in Wales and the UK do and a lot of other wonderful organizations as well, like the, you know, Showing Red Card to Racism and Homophobia and Support Campaigns and stuff like that. And it’s only after a lot of the hard work they’ve been doing how we started to break down barriers and the environment in sport in particular is now becoming an environment where people can feel they can be themselves.

1:31:09 There’s a lot of work to be done again, but it is getting better and we are getting there. And I think in years to come, hopefully a year, a couple of years, it could be a few months, who knows? But we will see more people coming out because they are now actually able to accept who they are sooner because knowing the environment they’re in is going to accept them and that will help you as well accept who you are sooner, I think. Yeah, I hope so, although you might argue that in a culture like soccer or football where maybe it doesn’t have that respect so high, it might be rough a road, and you might have that vocal minority, like you said, that can sometimes ruin games and cause fights and disturbances.

1:31:47 Because their voices will be louder as a minority, but let’s not take away as well from a lot of the good people in soccer as well, but you’re quite right in what you’re saying, yes. Yeah, and in American football, it’s such an institution in that country. I mean, look, it’s just bound to happen, you know? And so I always tell people when they hold these secrets in, whether it’s coming out or all these things about themselves, I always say that most people spend 99% of their day worrying about their life, and they usually don’t spend that much of their time worrying about your life.

1:32:17 And so I’ve had friends in the past that when they finally go to tell you something, most people are kind of like, oh, okay, or I knew anyways, or they get over it in a matter of days. And again, like we said earlier, I think people put so much pressure on what will happen. The other thing I want to note is that a lot of people want to be the best at what they do, and I would argue you’re pretty close to being the best of what you do, and by only being true to yourself is how you get there, you know?

1:32:44 And I don’t think you can ever be truly world-class without being at peace with yourself. 100% correct. I think there’s a truer statement being said. That is, from my own experiences, that is 100% correct. Until, you know, being true to yourself, being able to be yourself, the environment you work in in sport or in media or whatever environment you work in, your family, the people around you, your community, your sport, when they allow you to be yourself and then you can be yourself, only then, yes, can you be the best at what you want to be, whatever it is, because whatever you do in life as a career, if you’ve got a little bit of worry in the back of your mind, that’s sort of niggling away and distracting you from what you should be concentrating on doing, then you can’t be at the best.

1:33:36 You can’t be the best of your ability and be the very, very top of what you can achieve. Imagine if you are in a situation now and you were good at what you do, but there’s still a little bit of something worrying, whatever it may be, and you’re not being true to yourself. Imagine how much better not only life is going to be, but how much better you are going to be as an individual at what you’re doing as well by being true to yourself. And I think that is very, very, very true.

1:34:04 Yeah, and what a greater place the world would be if everybody was operating on that true potential. You’re right, because we certainly live in a world at the moment where at times it’s not a very nice place to be, really, and that’s a shame. And I certainly hope by communicating, by people accepting people for being different, accepting people for who they are, and realizing that we are all different, that we should all be treated with respect. And that respect works both ways.

1:34:38 You know, you shouldn’t… If you’re coming to live into this country, you should respect the people in this country, respect the values of this country, the morals of the country, you know, the law of the country, the people living in with the country, their long wedge, you know, their communities, their towns, their house, their cities. You should respect that. And also as well, if you were coming into the country to live, then you should be treated with respect.

1:35:04 Respect your values, respect your religion, respect your morals as well, you know, and that respect both ways. And when we get that respect, whether you agree with them or not, but you respect their views as they respect yours, then we can all get on living side by side. And we really do need that, I think, now, in this world at this moment. And the world has gone from one extreme to the other, I think, where, as I said earlier, political correctness has gone to the extreme, where, you know, I feared some places in the UK last year were not putting up Christmas trees in the classroom because they didn’t want anybody to be offended by the story of Jesus or the Christmas tree in the classroom.

1:35:51 You know, really, you know, where are we going, you know? Let’s respect people’s beliefs and their religions, but, you know, let them respect ours as well. You know, and I think that’s hugely important. And we need to go from the political correctness, gone extreme, everything’s gone to the extreme, to the right, to the left. We need to get that back into the middle where people can respect each other and live by each other side by side on the true value which the only way we’re going to achieve that is by getting that true value of respect back into our societies, back into our communities.

1:36:29 You know, this will sum up, I think, how times have changed. When I went to school as a kid, and if I didn’t behave in school and I came home and I told my mum I had a row with a teacher, she’d give me a row again and I’d get sent to bed early, depending on what I’d done. A kid comes home now and tells his mum or dad, I’ve had a row in school, and mum and dad goes up to the school and gives the teacher a row for giving her out to the kid. That’s not right. That’s what’s wrong with the world.

1:36:59 Right. Respect starts in the home, right? Respect starts everywhere. Yeah, amen to that. I just want to get your thoughts on the future of rugby.

1:37:06 I know you’re thinking about Tokyo 2019 as maybe the time when you sign off, although who knows, that could creep on. But what does rugby look like in 10 years or even in 30 years’ time besides the robot referees? Let me know, Robert referees, I hope. What about the sport itself? The sport is facing challenges, you know.

1:37:30 As I said, society is facing challenges, you know. There’s a huge blame culture in society now where we used to have a carnival in the village where people would dress up and be on the back of a floor, dress up on a lorry and the carnival would go through the village or the local farmer would bring his tractor and trailer, dress it all up and people would dress up as a theme and we’d have a carnival in the village. And we don’t have that now. We’re going to have a carnival for the first time in Parnabiram this year for, I think, about 16 or 18 years.

1:37:58 But it’s a walk-in carnival because there’s health and safety insurance in case somebody falls off a trailer and then somebody gets blamed from it and that’s the culture we live in. So rugby is facing that challenge as well where there’s a blame culture in society today. So health and safety is quite rightly so. There is a place for health and safety and we need to make the environment that people live in and the environment that people play sport in, whatever it is, as safe as we possibly can.

1:38:25 That is hugely important. Let’s never forget that. And that’s one of the most important things for a referee to bear in mind. When you’re refereeing that game, you have got to look after the safety of those players and that’s why the laws are there. You apply those laws.

1:38:39 You referee that game because those laws are intertwined, not only to get a game of rugby, but to have as well, not just respect, but also to have the game as safe as we possibly can in a situation that is very physical and a lot of contact. So rugby has, unfortunately, has a lot of other sports. In a contact sport, there is an element and rugby has that element of danger. And that’s why we’ve seen in American football the huge stuff that’s going on with concussion.

1:39:12 Rugby is the same. There is a huge drive now on trying to make the game safe as we possibly can or to try and… I don’t think we’ll ever eliminate the risk of injury in a contact sport. We’ll never ever totally eliminate the risk of a head injury or concussion. But we need to do all we possibly can to make rugby a sport that is safe for all.

1:39:37 And that, in all fairness, is what everybody was involved in the game and everybody who loves the game, from the governing bodies to world rugby and everybody else involved in the game, from the administrators, the people who run the game, the medic staff, the physios, officials, players. We are all doing all we can to make rugby as safe as we can. But there will be that element of risk. We cannot, I think… If you want to go down the route of having a non-contact sport where there is going to be no risk of injury, then rugby won’t be a sport anymore.

1:40:13 It won’t be here in 10 years’ time, in 30 years’ time. And I don’t think anybody wants that. But we all want it to be as safe as we possibly can. So I hope and I think that in 10 years, 30 years’ time, rugby won’t be any different to it is now. I don’t think you can change what the sport of rugby is without changing it beyond total recognition of what it is.

1:40:39 It’s going to be a hard, physical, contact sport, played with respect, played with good sportsmanship, where the players’ safeties look after as much as we possibly can. And that’s all I think we can do, is to try and do that, to raise the awareness, to eliminate those elements of risk as much as we possibly can. When I was a kid growing up, I used to go out climbing the trees, swinging on the swings on the trees, building treehouses and stuff. There was an element of risk in that, of falling and getting an injury.

1:41:15 Probably more of a risk of getting injured doing that than there is in playing rugby. I wouldn’t want to be a kid growing up today where my parents tell me, you can’t climb trees anymore. You can’t go out and risk anything that you’re going to fall over and hurt yourself. You know, we have to accept that rugby is a contact sport, but we also need to do as much as we possibly can. And I think we are doing that.

1:41:37 I think world rugby is doing all it can in its powers to make the game safe and raise the awareness. And I hope, and I really do think that rugby in 10 years’ time will be in a good place, I hope, because if rugby is not the sport it is now in 10 years’ time, then the world is going to be a cooler place for it. Yeah. Can I ask you a few questions about your own personal success when it comes to being a referee? Was there something, you know, over the years that you changed in your game, some way of looking at it, or physical preparation or mental preparation, or even sleep schedule or caffeine or something, where you notice when I do this, I perform better on the field?

1:42:20 These success secrets are only available on the London Real Academy. Become a member and get access to live shows, exclusive courses, my webinars, bonus content, meet-ups, live events, an amazing community, and much, much more. Now back to the rest of the show. What would we be surprised to learn about you? A strange thing, or something you watch, something you eat?

1:42:52 I probably am off the field a very, very different character of person that people would maybe perceive me to be on the field. When you look at me refereeing a game, and if you don’t know me, you’d think that I was really firm, really hard person, maybe. I’d like to think, you know, that that doesn’t come across as being hard or being aggressive on the field, but again, being firm, being fair, you know, and being in control of the situation when you need to be, because at the end of the day, you’re refereeing a contact sport where the temperatures can go up there, but you need to be in control, and you need to be firm with the players, but without being patronizing, without being aggressive.

1:43:31 So people watching the game, you would be thinking, oh, he’s a hard block, he’s a firm block. And I think probably off the field, I’m probably one of the most softest person that you could probably ever meet. You won’t catch me chucking a punch at anybody, no matter what anybody tries to do to me. And when I watch television at home and watch a film, you know, I’d be sobbing my eyes at crying at a sad moment in the film, you know. I remember as a kid watching the film Lassie, you know, Lassie come home.

1:44:02 I used to cry watching Lassie when I thought the dog was going to die or something, and watching sad films, particular animal films, you know, where the dog dies or something happens, you know, and I cry. What’s the film with, what’s it called now, with the American actor in it, when he has the Ossation dog, and it’s taken over by a virus, and he has to kill the dog because he’s turning into one of these wolves. What’s that called now? Yeah, I can’t come to mind right now.

1:44:39 But anyway, because I had two German shepherds, they passed away now, the two of them, and I don’t have children, you know, those dogs are my kids in one way. And when he had to sort of shoot the dog because he was turning into one of these wolves that they were trying to fight because he’d been bitten by the wolf, you know, I was sobbing my eyes out, you know, cuddling my dog. So that’s probably what maybe people would be surprised in. And I took one of the dogs to the vet to be put down.

1:45:07 It was horrible. I’ve pretty much never had to do such a hard thing in my life just to hold the dog there and just watch it slip away in your arms, you know, and I was crying like a baby. And then the other dog then, after she passed away, the other dog, she became ill about a week or so. She was a German shepherd as well before I went out to referee Scott in France in Paris two years ago. So the day before I left to go, her back legs went, she couldn’t walk anymore.

1:45:43 And my partner was home at the time, and so he was staying there looking after her, and my dad came down to look after her as well. And I said, look, I really, when I took the other dog to the vet to be put down a year before that, I came home and I cried in my eyes and told Molly, my other dog, and I said, look, you know, when you pass away, you please go in your sleep. I don’t want to be there to have to put you down. And I went to referee this game. She started losing her legs that morning.

1:46:15 I had to go and catch a flight, so the vet came out and the vet said, look, you know, you’re going to have to put her down. But don’t worry, I gave her an injection, she’s not in any pain. If you want to wait until you come back and bring her up on Sunday or I’ll come out on Sunday, and the vet was amazing, but you’re going to have to put her down. But don’t worry, for the next couple of days, she’d be fine, she won’t be any pain. I’ll call again tomorrow to give her some more injections.

1:46:41 And I had her go and referee this game now. And I rang in my partner, my dad, and yes, she was all right, she wasn’t moving, but she wasn’t in any pain. And I refereed the game and tried to focus on the game. And thankfully, I did a decent job in the game. And I thought, right, you know, I’ve got to go home tomorrow now, and I’ve got to go and put her down.

1:46:58 And I don’t know why, but my partner rung just as I was about to switch the phone off. I was on the plane, ready to switch the phone off to take off, and the phone went, and my partner was ringing from my home number, and I thought, oh, God, you know, when you’re dreading something’s going to happen, your stomach churns, and I answered the phone, and he said, she passed away. I was crying on the plane. People were looking at me thinking, what’s wrong with this person?

1:47:26 What’s he crying about? And it was like she had listened to me, you know, when I told her, look, you know, don’t make me put you down. And she just died. So a part of me, I really, really regret that not being there when she passed away, but a part of me then was also glad I wasn’t because at least she went in asleep like I’d asked her to, I guess. So I suppose that’s the part maybe people would, you know, you’re on the field, this he was a character, but off the field, I’m just a big softie like any other person.

1:48:01 Everybody else. Really, you know? What about kids? Is that something for the future? Actually, Will and I talked about it as well, and he was talking about a future of kids with his partner.

1:48:10 Is that something you think about? It is. You know, I love kids. I got a lot of little cousins, a couple of godchildren. They’re always over the house.

1:48:19 You know, my little cousin is, I say little, he’s 13, 14 now. He was staying over the other night. And I got a barbecue one Sunday because on Saturday, I’ll referee my 150th Pro 12 game in the Millennium Stadium and I have a celebration because it’s a bit of a milestone, really, you know, on refereeing. So on Sunday, I have a barbecue, all the family, my friends and stuff will be there and, you know, they’ll all have kids, middle cousins and stuff. So, you know, family is hugely important to me.

1:48:45 It is the most important thing. And I love it when the kids come around. Some of them are 17, 18, 19 now, you know, and they still come over and stuff like that. They don’t stay over now because in 19, they want to go over and do different things. But family is hugely important to me.

1:49:02 And a lot of people are telling me, Dan Jackson, you know, great friend of mine, a great referee as well, an ex-player who played for Saracens and started reffing when he finished playing professional rugby. And his kids were in the World Cup and I used to spend time playing games with his kids and stuff like that. And everybody telling me in the World Cup, he said, when are you going to have kids? I said, no, I said, I’m not going to have kids. He said you should because the kids would be very, very lucky to have you as a father, you know?

1:49:30 And I don’t think I’ll have kids and that will probably be one of my biggest regrets, I think. In an ideal world, I was brought up by a mum and dad and in an ideal world, I think it’s important that a kid, a boy or a girl, has a mum and a dad. I think that’s important. But then, even if it’s two dads, even if it’s two mums, as long as they’re brought up in a living home and they are cared and loved for and kept safe, that’s what’s the most important thing. That’s what matters most.

1:50:07 And I honestly, you know, at 45 years of age, when I finish refereeing in another three years, maybe four, probably three years, end of the season 2020, I’ll be 48, going on 49, will I have kids? I probably won’t, but you never say never. And that is the little thing that still, from time to time, worries me a little bit and gets me down a little bit from time to time that I have no children to pass things on to, you know, to pass those memories on. I have family and cousins and things, but I don’t have my own kids.

1:50:47 I’m the only child when my dad passes away and I hope, for God’s sake, it won’t be for a long time. But when he’s 81 years of age, when he passes away, it’ll just be me, really, in one sense of that immediate family, if you know what I mean. And then, you know, if my partner’s not about when he’s away and stuff, you know, when I go to bed at night and I switch that light off, sometimes it becomes very lonely or when I’m away in the world somewhere refereeing, sometimes you feel very lonely.

1:51:19 And I do sometimes worry that when I get older I become an old man that I won’t have kids to look after me or I won’t have grandchildren to look after or take to the park, you know, like I had growing up. And that doesn’t worry me a bit, I guess. So sort it out, Nigel, and have those kids. I’m 45. I just had my first son last year.

1:51:44 I waited so long. I had all the excuses in the world. I couldn’t handle the responsibility. I was going to be a bachelor for life. And yeah, I mean, I can’t believe I almost missed this adventure.

1:51:55 Maybe it is an excuse, you know. And maybe who knows, maybe I will. And 48, 49, 50. And again, male, female parents, like love is what’s missing in so many homes. No, you’re right.

1:52:06 That is the most important thing. I was brought up with a mom and dad. And if I was to be brought up again, I’d want to be brought up by a mom and dad again. But also as well, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with them being brought up by two dads or by two moms, as long as that kid is cared and loved for. And that, I think, is, as I said, is the most important thing.

1:52:27 Yeah. And so many options these days with surrogates or even adoption. I mean, there’s children out there that aren’t being loved. And then you’ve got someone like you that wants to love children. So when Glenn Jackson told me that in the World Cup, I sort of really sort of, what I did, you know, I had a tear in my eye, you know.

1:52:46 And I thought, you know, it was a very, very wonderful thing to say, really. And who knows? Okay, keep me posted on that one. I’ll keep you posted. I always finish by asking a question to everyone here, and I’ll ask you the same thing.

1:52:58 If you could make a phone call to the 20-year-old Nigel and get that man on the phone and just give him a few words of advice, what would you say to him? Just one word, I guess. Talk. Whatever it is, remember the most important thing in life is a family. Your values of respect, the way you’re brought up.

1:53:25 You know, when a lot of people tell you, life is what you make it. I’m not quite sure that’s true. I think life makes you where you’re brought up, how you’re brought up, taught by your mum and dad, or two dads, two mums, whatever it may be, or what is right and wrong to respect people, to say you please, you thank yous. The community you’re brought up in, school you go to, the influence of people in your family around you. All that will have a huge influence on you in growing up.

1:53:54 And it’s hugely, hugely important that you have those values, I think, in growing up. And what I would tell a young Nigel at 20 years of age is, you know, never ever forget where you’ve come from. No matter what you achieve in this life, be proud of where you’re from. Remember how you’ve been brought up, what you’ve been taught by your mum and dad, the values, your morals, your integrity. Remember all that.

1:54:21 And never, never be afraid. We’re all different. And never, never be afraid that if you’re feeling down, don’t ever be afraid to talk about it. And when you talk about it, and when you are true to yourself, then life is very different. And life can be an amazing, amazing experience of what it should be like.

1:54:45 On that same note, best advice you’ve ever received in your life might have come from someone in rugby or from your dad or your mum or someone, is there something that comes to mind? I think the best advice, I think, came from… I’ve had advice of my mum and dad, always be honest. And that was a difficult part for a while in my life when I was actually brought up by my mum to always be honest. And that I was living a lie to myself and to them.

1:55:22 And that is probably the best advice. Always be honest, honest with yourself and honest with everybody and respect. And then the other bit of advice which binds into the refereeing and into life in general is what Derek Bevan told me. A happy referee is a good referee. And that’s very, very true, not just in refereeing but in life.

1:55:45 A happy person in life is a good person. And lastly, to that 20-year-old that’s watching us or listening to us somewhere in the world, it could be in China, Brazil, Russia, anywhere, and they want to grow up and one day be like you and be it an international rugby referee or maybe be like one of those men on the field. What advice do you give to them if they want to achieve a dream like that? Don’t try to be me. Don’t try to be anybody else.

1:56:12 Just try and be the best at what you want to be and be yourself by doing that. There can’t be another Nigel Owens. There can’t be another Derek Bevan in the world of refereeing. There can’t be another Dan Carter. There can’t be another Richie McCaw.

1:56:30 There can’t be another Obama, you know. But be the best at what you want to be and work hard to achieve those goals. Impossible is nothing. Just give it your best and as long as you give it your best and stay true to yourself, then you will have no regrets as long as you’ve given your best. And more importantly than not, not just won’t you have any regrets.

1:56:54 Nobody will be able to point a finger at you then and say you didn’t try your best when you did try your best. And that is the best advice I had and that’s the best advice I could give anybody. You can be the best at what you want to be, but work hard, be true to yourself and be happy within yourself. Everything else then becomes a little bit easier. Nigel, thank you so much for coming on today.

1:57:21 You’re known for your skills as a rugby referee, but you are a wise man indeed. I think you bring a lot of that wiseness of Wales with you. There’s something about, I don’t know, the country or the language, you know, of growing up in that community that imparts these values on you, you know, values that are human values that sometimes we forget about with the social media and 10 million people in a city that it all does come down to respect. I mean, that is probably the single most important human quality if we want to keep it together on this earth and not kill each other.

1:57:56 So it’s important to talk about these things. And thank you for communicating these ideas. Talk is probably what I’m going to call this episode because it’s all about communication and you’ve got me thinking about all the relationships in my life and all the things I just don’t say and how much harm that’s doing to them and to me and then to everybody around me because I’m holding something back and I’m not being the best version of me, which I think is what you’re really talking about.

1:58:21 So I thought we were going to talk about rugby, but we talk more about life. All you Welsh guys are cool. What’s going on with that? Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure.

1:58:30 Pleasure is all mine. As we say on London Real, it’s about the journey. I wish you well on yours and all the best. Cheers. Thank you very much.

1:58:36 Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. Pleasure.