Full transcript: Christo Brand on London Real
10:34 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Mr Christo Brand, who was Nelson Mandela’s prison guard on Robben Island just outside of Cape Town in 1978, and you later transferred with him to Pollsmoor prison, and you stayed with him until he was released in 1990. Is that right? Correct, that’s correct.
10:56 You and Mandela developed a friendship over the course of many years. He gave you a job in the government after he later became president, I think he gave your son a scholarship as well, that’s good. Christo, it’s a fantastic story. You’ve written a book called Mandela: My Prisoner, My Friend, which I believe goes on sale next week, and you’re here to promote it. Thanks so much for being here, and welcome to London Real.
11:20 Thank you, sir. You know, it’s a fascinating story. I was trying to think if there’s been any story like this in history, where a prison guard got so close to who would be such a famous leader. Is there any precedent for this? I’m not sure, I’ve never heard of it.
11:37 And also, I wondered if you can remember back to that day in 1978 when you went to Robben Island. You’re 18 years old, and you’re being told that it’s going to be your job to guard Nelson Mandela and his crew. And I’m wondering what South Africa was like then, and what you thought then when you were told that you would be regarding him. You know, when I arrived on Robben Island, we was informed we’re going to meet the biggest criminals in the history of South Africa.
12:07 The biggest criminals. I didn’t know about Nelson Mandela at all. Never heard the name before. You hadn’t heard of him? The first time I heard this was on Robben Island.
12:16 Okay. And they told you they were terrorists. They told us we know what happened when I start work on Robben Island during the first week in the section. After opening the cell doors, I see old people sleeping on a mat, two mats and three blankets. I see the name Walter Sisulu and so on.
12:33 Then I asked the sergeant, where can I put my food parcel for that day, because you can’t leave it just in office. Prisoners are stealing, and especially those criminals and then he said, no, we don’t have to worry. Those guys won’t steal your food. They are terrorists who try to overthrow our country. They are only hungry for news, and that’s why I found out this is a terrorist who try to overthrow our country.
12:58 And did you hate them at first? Because of my friends, which are my school friends, a year before I left school. They were leaving school, and they was sent for military training, and during this training it was also sent to the borders where they fight against a terrorist who attack our country. So my friend died there, my best friend died on the border. We attend a funeral at school, and it was a military funeral where the military put a flag over the coffin, and it was a big ceremony that day.
13:27 And then I said to myself, I don’t want to join the military at all. So that’s where I take a decision. The time when the military called me up, I’m going to join the prison service and become a prison warder. Okay, and you had some history of friends of yours dying fighting this war, so when you were told that these were, you know, the most dangerous men in South Africa, did you not like them at first? What is the relationship back then between prisoners and inmates?
13:54 You know, the relationship on Robben Island between prisoners and the warders. The warders didn’t communicate with him. We just gave instructions. All the warders, which was mostly, people from the ’60s, was warders for their size, big strong men which can break the prisoners down. So the year when I arrived, we was a younger generation group arrived there, and we could have communicated better with the prisoners, but we was not allowed really to communicate with prisoners.
14:24 He has given instructions. So, that was a different situation when I arrived there but only after weekend I was weakened off. My uncle asked me, did you see Nelson Mandela then? It was my father asked him, who’s Nelson Mandela? He said that was a terrorist who tried to overthrow our country in the ’60s, the Rivonia trial, people which were sentenced.
14:43 And then when I drive back to the Waterfront to go to work to Robben Island, I see under one of the bridges, “Free Nelson Mandela”, and also spray painted under the bridges. Okay, and also a few months later I start working at a censor office. Then still thousands and thousands of birthday cards came in for Nelson Mandela. Then they started asking, who is Nelson Mandela? Then they found out who he really was.
15:07 Okay, and the whole time you’re at Robben Island guarding him as well, and the whole time I was on Robben Island guarding this PR is correct. And what do you remember of your first interactions with Nelson Mandela? What was he like? You know, my first interaction with Nelson Mandela was when they informed us we’re going to meet the biggest criminals. After opening the cells, I was looking for the criminal element in the persons.
15:32 I was looking for tattoos in their faces and for scars and marks of any gang marks on them, but I didn’t see at all. I just saw old people. Mandela was old, he was already 60 years old when you met. I saw old people, and I was feeling half sorry for them, because they still slept on the floor, and that was for me not good to see a person sleep on the floor, especially at that age, and they always slept on the floor at Robben Island. Is that right?
16:00 No, they changed in late ’79 or beginning ’79. In that year they started giving old prisoners beds, made it a little bit better for them. Okay. And they also stopped working in the quarries and outside on Robben Island, especially the old prisoners. He didn’t work anymore.
16:15 Okay, so there were two types of guards. You’re saying, kind of, the old-school guards, which were tough guys that were used to kind of breaking down the prisoners, and then people like you, the young kind of class that came through, that were, what, a bit more open-minded? Um, the younger guards was more, have matric, at least qualifications, higher school qualification. Okay, could have at least give instructions to prisoners understand them, because some of the old guards was only speaking Afrikaans, right?
16:44 And the prisoners not all understand the language and they struggle to understand what these warders give them instructions for. So it was easier for us sending young ones there to assist and to sort out some problems on Robben Island. And what language would they speak then, prisoners? Mostly speak English to the warders. Okay, not in their language.
17:05 They’re speaking English, communicate in English. Okay. And Nelson Mandela famously learned Afrikaans, because he convinced, I think, a lot of his people in the beginning. They disagreed with him learning Afrikaans. That’s correct.
17:18 He convinced some of his colleagues, comrades around him, to speak the language, to let them understand the prison guards, to make lives easier for them. If they could communicate with the prison guards, then it will be better for them in their working condition on Robben Island. Correct, right? I think there’s a famous quote where he said, speak to a man, you know, words, and it goes to his head, but speak to him in his language and then it goes to his heart.
17:44 That’s correct, that’s a famous quote of him. So, and the conditions on Robben Island when you got there when you saw the labour and those kind of things, was that shocking for an 18-year-old boy? It was shocking for me to see prison conditions they was sleeping under in the prison, also the hard labour they have done on Robben Island. But like I said, in the ’60s, but more harsh on Robben Island in the ’70s, late ’70s. It start changing to a little bit better in the ’80s.
18:13 It become more better, because then they start giving prisoners censored newspapers, and they could have listened to censored news. They get some information from the outside. They could have even the UPG their grading become a little bit better. They can receive a little bit more visits, write a little bit more letters, and receive a little bit more letters from the outside. Is that the one thing they wanted the most, information?
18:37 That is the thing that they want the most. Even their clothing has changed, because in the beginning there was discrimination against food and clothing. African prisoners like Mandela were called boys. They only got short trousers, short sleeves, sandals. Coloured and Indian prisoners getting long sleeves and so on.
18:57 And even food was only mealie porridge for Africans, whereas coloureds and Indians get bread with their mealie porridge and a little bit of sugar, but it have changed. I remember when I read Long Walk to Freedom. I tried reading it, Christo. To be honest with you, before I went to South Africa, and it’s such a long book, and it goes through all the trials, and it’s a long, long story of struggle, and I couldn’t read it, and then I went to Cape Town, and I was living in Cape Town for a week, and I read through it, and I finally understood that I didn’t realise there was, you know, different treatment for blacks and then different treatment for mixed race and Indians, and then for whites.
19:32 So it was like even different clothes. That’s correct. It was discrimination like you said. Mixed race have better conditions than Africans, and whites have far better conditions, and Africans, you know, with Mandela’s trial, the Rivonia trial, which was sentenced in, was also Indians, and also a white person. And on Robben Island the Indian also refused, on a time arath to take his bread.
19:58 Then Mandela said, “Comrade, take the bread. We can share. At least we as Africans can have also a taste of bread while we share with you, but don’t refuse. But even the white person in Pretoria Central Prison, he was also away from everybody. He was totally alone.
20:15 At least on Robben Island, Mandela said, when we work hardship on a limestone quarry, we can communicate with each other, not locked separately in single cells. On Robben Island it means it was also for them good to go out of prison. Talk to me about the limestone quarries and the work that they had to do. I mean, I’ve read, I think, in your book, that it would almost blind them, the light coming off the limestone quarries. What were the conditions like?
20:41 The limestone quarry was hard labour. They must crush this limestone, dig it out, break it up. We use that for mixing with sand for making concrete and things. But also in Cape Town there is always a southeaster wind, and if they work in a limestone quarry, if a southeaster is blowing, that dust blows in their eyes, and they start burning their eyes, and that makes that the eyes dried out. Even our prison guards was guarding them, could not really properly see the prisoners in that dust when they work there, and that was really painful killing Mandela’s eyes during those years, and this is for a man who reads for a living.
21:20 So that’s correct, he needs his eyes. And there’s that famous picture of the prison yard on Robben Island, where there’s each prisoner, you know, sitting beside the other one, and I think the ones in front are breaking up rocks and the ones behind are sewing mailbags. What was that situation? What year was that? What happened?
21:37 That was, I think, in the ’70s, around that time, a news photographer was invited to take photos of prisoners doing soft labour because they don’t do hard labour anymore, and they was piled up in a courtyard. So, toying M sex, the M sex was fixing M sex needle work. But at the same time they’ve got another group of prisoners, while still breaking stones, they were breaking blue stones into smaller stones and smaller, to make concrete with it. And they was thinking that this photographer can only take a photo of the prisoners who were working on mailbags.
22:19 And when the photo came out at the end, it was this popular photo people can see today, where they broke stones and do soft needlework. Okay, it’s a powerful picture, but, like you said, it was a staged picture. Yes, so the hard labour was probably much, much worse. Hard labour was worse, but also the breaking stones. You’ve got a rubber piece which you hold the stone, you must break it with a four-pound hammer, and sitting in the sun.
22:44 Our sun on Robben Island becomes very hot in that courtyard. Breaking stone was also really hard labour Okay, now talk to me about your friendship with Nelson Mandela. How did it start, and did you know it was happening, or is it something that happened really slowly? I didn’t know that there will be a friendship start between me and Nelson Mandela. But what I’ve seen through him, when I observed him, I see a disciplined man.
23:10 I see a man who was quite intelligent. He was studying. A man, down to earth, who will clean the passage, will do a normal work which other prisoners sometimes don’t want to do. He will even clean the toilet buckets when the other prisoner was sick. I heard one day that he also cleaned that prisoner’s toilet bucket.
23:30 He was a down to earth person, but I didn’t believe that a person can be hungry for children. But because Mandela was so long in prison, and also when he was outside before he got to prison. He was in exile. He was underground. He had neglected his family.
23:47 He didn’t see his children on a daily basis. He could not be a good father for them, because he was himself always, for the police. So, that day when you’ve seen one of his grandchildren on Robben Island, which I smuggled for him there So he was, it was Winnie Mandela visiting him on Robben Island. Winnie Mandela came to visit Mandela on Robben Island. Okay.
24:07 And no children are allowed on Robben Island. Children was not allowed on Robben Island. They didn’t even see children. What Mandela told me one day, while they work in a limestone quarry, they was working with a b and breaking the limestone crush artwork, they heard some children in the trees and the bushes playing not far from the limestone. The wind blew their voices to the quarry, immediately quiet down, everybody to a standstill and stop, just to hear the voices of children, of children and that was for them so fascinating, to hear the voice of a child.
24:39 But the children was the children of the prison warders of Robben Island at that stage. Okay, so did he tell you that he wanted to see a child, or did you know that he wanted to? He never told me that, but always when pictures and photos came some photos of children was been kept away from them. And that day Winnie Mandela came to Robben Island with a boat. It was stormy conditions, wet weather conditions, and we not really body-searched visitors, because we know the visits is not contact visits.
25:10 It threw a small tiny glass, so when he get to the waiting room of the visiting centre, when she opened the blankets around her, because she sat on the top deck, she was soaked wet. We observed she got a baby infant. When we call her for visit to come to the visiting booth, to put her into the visiting booth, she want to bring the baby with. Then I said, ma’am, children’s not allowed, and she begged me, asked me nicely, she will give me money, just show Mandela the child through a distance.
25:37 I could not have risked my career at that stage. I could have lost my job. I could have been charged for, I reason, so I said to her, no ma’am, I can’t even take your money. Then during the visit in the box she told her husband Mandela that she had brought this grandchild to Robben Island, but he couldn’t see it through the glass. He could not know what happened.
25:56 She left the child behind in a waiting room with other visitors. And were you, were you friends with Nelson at this point, were at that point we was not friends. Were you, would you exchange greetings, or not really? All what happened on occasion where we could have talked to each other, when we marched them down to the visiting booth. He will ask me, where you from Mr Brand.
26:15 I said I came from a farm community. I grow up on a farm. He asked me where I grow up. I said I grow up on a farm. Is your father, mother, still alive?
26:22 I said yes, still alive. My father works on the railway. Now oh, that’s good. And brothers and sisters? I said no.
26:28 And then he asked me what are you studying now? I said, Mandela, I’m not studying at all. He was interested in my studies, education. He said Mr Brand, you must educate yourself. You must start studying immediately.
26:39 You’ve got the time on Robben Island. So when we arrived at the visiting location, and like I said, the instance we told him during the visit, of that 30 minutes that he had brought his grandchild to Robben Island, but the war do not allow him to see it. He looked back, he asked me, Mr Brand, is it possible just to see the child through the window? I said Mandela is not allowed, and that’s the first favour he ever asked of you. That’s the first favour he asked me.
27:06 I said it’s not allowed. Then after the visit it finished, when he’s gone back to the waiting room. Then he asked me a second favour. He said Mr Brand, can you pass a message to my wife? I asked him what’s your message?
27:17 He said, just tell her that she must apply for visit for Christmas time, because she must always apply about 3 to 6 months in advance, before 3 to six months in advance, and he only got one visit every 3 months. That time it was one visit every 3 months. That’s tough. So it was very tough. So I said to him, at that moment the microphones were switched off.
27:35 I know the tape recorders which monitor them was switched off. I said to Mandela, I will call your wife back, you tell can tell her yourself. So I go to the other side, the window was closed in front of them. Go to the other side, we need just pick up the baby from other visitors. I said to him, ma’am, can I hold the baby I never touched a black child.
27:52 You never touched a black child before, that’s what I said to her. I grew up with black children. Say, push the child in my arms. She go to her handbag, want to take out some money to give me. I said, ma’am, I’m not allowed to show my child.
28:04 I will just hold it for you here, because the other visitors also go to the visiting booth. While you see your husband for a few seconds, it will just be a few seconds. When she’s in the side of the visiting booth, I close her middle door, so that she can’t come out. I locked her in, and then Mandela passed his message to his wife for that half a minute. Then he came out of the visiting booth, and that moment I sneaked down to the side of, and then he saw me, and he came straight to me with his fast, and he took the baby out of my arms.
28:33 He kissed the baby. He had some tears in his eyes. At that moment he was quite emotional, and then I take it back from him, because when he was knocked on the other side, she’s locked in. Take it back to Mandela. Gave it to Winnie without her knowing that, and she still begged me, Mr Brand, can I show him the child?
28:50 Which I said it’s not possible. When she got to the mainland. She immediately smuggled the baby to Robben Island, but was not able to show him, only in the distance. And from that moment, I feel this man was really hungry for children. You could have seen the emotion in his face, and I feel sorry for them.
29:06 He was already more than 12 years or 15 years in prison, and I could feel sorry for him that he have not seen even children, and then I feel something to assist this old man. But you’re a prison guard. You’re supposed to be the tough guy. You’re supposed to deny these things. How did you just change your mind in that, in that second?
29:25 Where I grew up, on a farm, I was playing with African children. I grew up with him, and one day I was disrespectful to an elderly person, where my father gave me a hiding with a whip, and he said to me, must respect a black person, because a human being like us, they’ve got same blood in their veins, and they’re human beings like us, and they’re workers on the farm. They have our friends here, and so from that moment, when I see Mandela was so pleased to touch his grandchild, I feel very sorry for him.
29:56 I think back of the years I grew up on the farm, where I was disrespectful to an elderly man who worked for us, and then I think of that at that moment, that’s why I helped him. But if that should have leaked out I should have been charged for that. Charged, you would have been fired, sacked, and in charge with a crime of like treason, because I helped a terrorist to see a grandchild. But also in my mind was, when I handed over the child, Mandela could not have sent any political message out with this baby.
30:24 The baby can’t even talk as yet, right? And you know, I was feeling the message is safe, and Mandela kept it secret. Even he did not tell his other comrades in prison about that, which was important for your safety, not to tell them, because if the word got out that you had done this favour for him, you would be in trouble. That’s correct. Was that a way of him respecting you, and even he respected me for that, and he kept it quiet.
30:48 And you know, even if he leaked out then you will also not have, one day, maybe a favour again. That’s why he kept it secret, and you didn’t tell Winnie, because she might tell someone, and then the secret would get out as well. Winnie will immediately take it outside, you know. If she can get something without a prison warder, which she can nail down on something, to get a grip on that prison authority, she will do it immediately. Okay, that’s quite a moment you had, and he never told anyone about it until he left prison.
31:18 That’s correct. It’s what happened one day in Parliament. I was also working in Parliament, then they came in a passage, and the security of Mandela cleaned the passage, and they said me must just one side, the president is coming through. And then I want to get his attention. I said, Mr Mandela, and they tried to hold me back, like, just loud.
31:36 I said his name, Mr Mandela. Then he looked up. He said, oh, Mr Brand, please come here,” and he chased the security away, and they said, no, no, this man must stand next to me. This must be my prison warder. This guy was my friend on Robben Island.
31:48 I’m a man like, and you guys, before some of you was in uniform. He already smuggled a baby, me, on Robben Island, and that’s where our friendship has started, and he acknowledged me immediately, there in front of everybody, and he told that story in front of everyone. How’d that make you feel? I was feeling very small at that moment, feel very small, and I was feeling very proud that he’s the president, and I was feeling good, let him out and tell the story, because he’s the president.
32:16 I could not be in trouble anymore, right? Because I’m secure. You know, you said that he was asking you questions you know, in the prison before you delivered the baby, but would you have gotten in trouble for even talking to him? Were you not supposed to fraternise with the prisoners, with the other prison guards always watching you? You know, we’ve got senior prison guards, we’ve got officers.
32:38 If they see you start in a corner somewhere communicating with a prisoner, you were called in immediately. What conversation do you have with this prisoner? What are you talking about? We was not really allowed to communicate and talk to prisoners and have discussions with him. All what we can do, we can go to the prisoner, give, give him instructions.
32:58 Tell him, Mandela, you’ve got a visit at 2:00, please be ready, and walk away, or if you can go to him and say, Mandela, please make sure that passage is clean, off your garden or something. You can give him an instruction or not really. Or the prisoner comes to you with a complaint, then you will tell him, not here, come to my office, then we’ve got the office on the section where the president can come in, and he tells me his complaint. I will tell him, Mandela, put it in writing for me, because I’m not taking verbal complaints, except if you need, maybe, toilet paper or something like that.
33:29 But otherwise, if you have a bigger complaint, put it in writing. That’s why we don’t have really communication with prisoners, chats, just talking, anything about it. So you became friends with him, but you didn’t have conversations? Or if you did, you had to keep them very quiet. We must keep them quiet, or when we walk to the visiting booth, or we sit in at exams.
33:48 Mandela also wrote exams. I was also examination officer, then we sit in exams. It’s a separate room away from the prison. Then we could have talked something on the way there and have a discussion, but also after 1982, Mandela was transferred away from Robben Island to Pollsmoor prison, where I was in charge of the section, was been kept for a time there. We played table tennis with him.
34:11 I played tennis with him. No officer of a senior officer can visit our section without contacting us on the radio to open the bottom gate door for them, because we have locked the gates from the inside. Okay, the gates can’t open from the outside at all. They made it secure okay for prisoners, to people to come into the section. So you had more freedom at the second prison, more than freedom?
34:31 We can drink a coffee with him. I can sit to eat a biscuit with him, if somebody is at a gate the other warders will watch us, and then we stand up or just walk away. Was there any point where you said to yourself, Christo, there’s this man in this prison who’s a terrorist, he’s older than me, maybe he’s playing a game with my mind, maybe he is tricking me into helping him, and this is going to hurt me someday? Did you ever have that feeling or never had that feeling?
34:56 Mandela was not a person which will try to trick you. He was honest, he was straightforward, and you have got respect. He even respected me as 18 years old, at that stage becoming 19. You have that respect that I always, his senior. Even I was far younger than him.
35:13 You’ve got that respect, and only in 1986, for the first time, Mandela mentioned to me what the ANC stands for. That is already to start with negotiations. That’s the first time he talked about his organisation to me. Before that he never tried to speak politics about me never asked me what political party you belong to. Nothing, just talk about studies.
35:34 You was pressing me for studying further, and look after your family. And when my child was born, he said, no, you’re a father now, you must be responsible. You must study for looking after this family. It’s amazing. I think, as men, the one thing we find the most important from other men is we want to be treated with respect.
35:53 And I think it’s that simple, isn’t it? That’s correct. That’s a respect. It’s, like, the one thing we want, more important than politics, money. It’s just being treated with respect, just the respect between the two of us.
36:04 Correct. So, take it on. You move, he changes prison. How does he manage to take you with him to the next prison? Because I think that would be suspicious.
36:12 If I was running a prison system that Nelson Mandela wants to bring Christo with him, did he have, did he have that much power at that point? No, he didn’t have that power. What happened? I was a young man, unmarried, on Robben Island, and they promised us after two years we will get transferred to the prison you would love to go to. So after two years I started applying for transfer.
36:33 Every time it was turned down. They said you work at this office, we can’t replace you. They’ve always got a story. And also, before I got to Robben Island, there was a security check-up on us, if we belong to any political party and that things. And then I was fighting for this transfer constantly.
36:51 After my third time, that was just called in, in 1982. You are transferred to Pollsmoor prison. You can pack your things tomorrow, you must report. I packed my things immediately, go over with a boat the next day. When I reported in Pollsmoor prison, they told me no, no, you’re working night shift.
37:08 You can’t come and choose where you want to work. You must come back at 3:00, report for night shift duty, first shift, that is from 4:00 till 12:00. So the next day I reported to Pollsmoor prison, like I said, that afternoon, and when I reported there, they said, no, no, we’re going to escort prisoners tonight, dangerous prisoners. We’ve got a whole group of warders there, drawing firearms. We’re going with two trucks, two cars.
37:33 Security Police is escorting us. We’re going to do an escort. I didn’t know where to we go. We left with empty trucks. We’re going to fetch prisoners now, and then we stopped at the Waterfront, and here Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Mia Musaba get off the boat, only four of them.
37:49 And I was thinking, why all this big trucks and the security only for four prisoners? It didn’t make sense, but we load them in the trucks with all their belongings and all the things on Robben Island, and we bring them to Pollsmoor prison. We was instructed, if the prison asks what prison they’ve gone to, we mustn’t tell them Pollsmoor prison. We must say brfl prison that’s a little bit further out of Cape Town. So when Mandela wrote his first letter from Pollsmoor prison, he asked the address I gave him, brfl prison address, so he wrote it as if he’s on brfl prison.
38:21 So that’s how we was starting there. We kept it a secret for one month, in what prison they was been kept. Okay, just for psychological reasons of prison break reasons, that kind of thing. So it was just chance really that you moved prisons when he moved prisons. It was just by chance.
38:34 Wow. And so you now were with him the whole time until he was released? You watched him evolve, and then be released, and then elected president. Did you ever see any of this coming, the day when he was released, or the fact that he, some of the, our warders was saying we don’t think Mandela will last another five years. He was old.
38:53 Was his health bad? Any, was he, he was not that bad, but you have this TV which was recovered from the sickness illness. Cuz the Pollsmoor prison wasn’t necessarily a nice prison, right? It was not a nice prison. But especially after 1985, it was worse for Mandela.
39:10 He was isolated alone. He was underground, in a basement part of the prison, where was damp and was not fresh air, proper fresh air, and that’s where he got sick. Did they keep him alone because they didn’t want him communicating with other prisoners? That’s correct, and also he was part that negotiations have started. We’d take him secretly at night out of prison to speak to the minister, or to speak to this one or that one, and that was a secret thing, so they didn’t want the other prisoners to know he was having high-level meetings with.
39:38 I don’t want other prisoners to know about that. Okay, so his health is really bad at this point? You, you don’t even know if he’s going to live. His health was not bad. He was okay, but we’re not sure he’s going to live another five years, but he was busy with negotiations still after release.
39:54 And then, when FW de Klerk announced he prepared to step back, that Mandela can take over the country if these organisations win. I was feeling very happy. I was hoping Mandela can become the president, and at last he became the president. It was a very good moment for me when he became the president. And also that’s after that, in ’94 was a right in prison, and then Mandela contacted me and he said, Mr Brand, it’s time for you to leave here.
40:25 Then Kathrada, I spoke to Kathrada for the job. Then he spoke to Mandela, and then they arranged something for me in Parliament, so then I started working in Parliament with the drafting of the new Constitution. And even after that, when the Constitution was adopted, Kathrada arranged me a work on Robben Island. I’m working today back on Robben Island. Okay.
40:46 Kathrada, who’s that? Ahmed Kathrada was sentenced with Mandela for life. He was the youngest Indian person who was sentenced for life with Mandela in the Rivonia trial, and you became friends with him as well. At Robben Island we are very good friends. Okay, we are very close.
41:00 We still in contact with each other on a weekly basis, if you put that way. So these guys really looked after you? They really looked after me, yes. And was there any other prison guards that they became that close with, or was it just you? I’m the only one which I can remember, which still in contact with him, which became so close to them.
41:19 But yeah, why is that, do you think? I don’t know. You know, when Kathrada was released from Pollsmoor prison, that day he said to me, Mr Brand, can you take this for me and keep it for me? That was all his prison clothes, and I was thinking he’s mad to keep prison clothes, but he asked me to keep it. Then I kept it in my garage at home.
41:39 And after his release he contacted me one day from his friend’s house, can I bring his parcel for him? So I take his prison clothes for him. He donated them to the Robben Island Museum. It’s on the expedition, where you can see the real prison clothes which you have on in prison, and he received some of that clothes, clothes in the ’60s, you know, which he kept nice. And so he trusted you with his clothes.
42:01 He trusted me with his clothes, and then you brought him back, and he donated him to the museum. To the museum he donated. And when you, when you were looking after Mandela before his release, in 1990, say 1985 to 1990, you must have had friends that knew you were close to Mandela, white friends, who maybe didn’t want apartheid to end. Did you ever find yourself in arguments about thec or about a part? You know, there was three friends of mine work together with Mandela, but I get promotion.
42:32 I was a warrant officer, and some of them were just behind me, so they always looked up to me and listened to me, and I gave instructions. I gave instructions to do this and do that, and they never go against me. They never said to me, I done something wrong. One of my friends, Mandela even smuggled a letter out of prison with a small chocolate through one of my friends who work with me, to my wife. My wife never told me that, only after his release, he took the letter out and showed it to me, and that was that he put pressure.
43:02 He said my wife must put pressure on me, that I must study further, because you’re a good man like me, must have education. That’s what he put to me. And you know, so he wrote a secret letter to your wife, to get you to get her to get you to study more. That’s good. Now, Nelson Mandela is so famous for coming out, becoming elected president and not seeking retribution, not seeking revenge against, you know, the white oppression for his whole career, and he was making peace with people, and he hired the bodyguards from his former presidency.
43:37 He supported the Rugby teams, and he was completely the opposite of what everyone expected. Did you expect that from him? The way he was in prison, he was studying the white folks of the prison warders, and you could have seen the fear which a country will have, the white people in the country will have if Mandela will come out. And he was just doing the opposite, to make them all acceptable in the new South Africa. I asked Mandela one day, don’t you hate the white people of the country?
44:06 He said, Mr Brand, Brand. All my comrades are white. I’ve got a lot of white comrades, and I can’t hate the white people of the country, because half of them, or more than half of them, was uninformed about what was going on in this country. I can hate the system which was in place, where oppression was put to white people to Black. I can say I hate that, but I can’t take revenge on people who were innocent during the struggle.
44:34 Do you think you could have done the same thing, being in his position? You know, if I was in that position, I’m not sure, if I was in prison for so many years, oppressed, I’m sure I will come out with some. But Mandela was not that. He was just the opposite, show the opposite for the world, and that made him acceptable for the whole world. That he came out with no hate in him, and he wanted reconciliation.
44:57 He even put it to me, saying, Mr Brand, you must write a book. I didn’t write about prison warders much in my book, but I want you to write a book to talk about reconciliation, how prisoners could have been friends with warders. And I promised him I will do that, but every time I delayed it, till he asked me he must get somebody, and so the book will be out. So he’s been trying to get you to write this book for, for what, 20 years? Longer.
45:20 No, no, it was here, from the ’94, ’95. Yeah. Okay. He wanted you to give that perspective, that’s of the war, of the warden and the prisoners. And when you see what he’s done.
45:35 It’s amazing to me that everyone around the world thinks Mandela is, you know, one of the greatest leaders, one of the greatest men, and the only thing that was different about him is was his attitude. He just changed an attitude. You know, he didn’t invent something. He didn’t do a great feat or a great athletic thing. He just came out and treated people in a completely different way that people didn’t expect.
45:55 He be with respect. You, they come out of, you know, what might be proud of Mandela? If I look back, the day when he was released, the first day when he went up to the Grand Parade to approach the folks who were standing there. There were people who didn’t like him. Maybe they stood in that crowd.
46:12 There were white people, there were mixed-race people from the Western Cape, mostly mixed race. There were African people, his own people speaking his language, but his first words was in Afrikaans, the language people speak in the Western Cape. Immediately I feel very proud in myself. He recognised us, whites and Migra people. He recognised us in that Cape Town, and then he spoke in English for the people didn’t understand.
46:38 Then he went over to speak in his own home tongue to his own people. He brought them up last, and that was for me so powerful, when he spoke those African words there, to welcome the people and say, I’m here. Were you sad when he died? When he died I was very sad, but we all expected it to happen, because he was sick. I’m sure he was in pain and things.
47:00 Even they said he was not in that pain. His mind was not that clear anymore for the past four or five years. For many years, yes, for the last four, five four or five years, he was not that clear, but his long-term memory was still very good. Right? Very, very good.
47:15 You know, if you show him a picture, he will tell you the story of that picture. There was one occasion where I show him a picture there with K, with me. He said to Mr Brand, you know that lady in that picture? I said, who? She, he said, ask her.
47:28 That was his girlfriend when he ran to exile. He was supposed to marry her, and then he got to prison, you know. He was still making that jokes. Okay, telling the truth in pictures. You’ve seen that.
47:38 And even on his last, he was still thinking about me. For instance, me and my family visit him on occasion, they one of the last occasions, and then we want to say goodbye to him, as son and he said, no, no, Mrs Brand, can you excuse me and your husband alone for a few minutes? I have a serious discussion with him. So my wife said thanks, thanks, and she greeted my son and my grandchild. Then he talked to me.
48:03 He said, Mr Brand, you know, at home I’ve got this big exercise ball, and people with a little bit of a stomach must exercise on that to keep it thin. You know, thin people live longer. I’m worried about you. You are still worried about me. Even he was old, this was before he died, he was still worried about your health.
48:24 That’s correct. What, what did he have as far as flaws? I know you, he was famous for you smuggling in the Penene he liked his hair oil. Is, was that something that was important for his image, or was that a small comfort that he wanted to make? I didn’t smoke the Penene.
48:41 What happened with the Penene was during the prison years, from the ’60s, prisoners was allowed to buy for few cents small luxuries, and one of Mandela’s luxuries was blue Penene with oil, which he put on his hair. He might always be respectable when he went to the visit to visit his wife. He had to look good. He put hair oil in his hair, and his prison uniform was nicely ironed, even if he got, I don’t have iron, they iron it with a brick on the cement, and it must always be nice, and even in the ’80s, there was the sanctions in South Africa.
49:15 Blue Penene was not available at shops anymore. It was totally out. So he was complaining to me. We was only allowed to buy from a certain shop, and there was no blue Penene. So he took the effort to his wife, and he complained to his wife, said the authorities don’t want to buy him his blue Penene anymore.
49:33 Let his wife must try to get something from outside, but she went to Alan Shman, who was in Parliament, and Shman said in Parliament the prison authorities refused Mandela his blue Penene, his hair oil, and then we was in trouble. The prison authorities, I was called in by the commanding officer. He said, Mr Brand, you take this government car and you’re going to look for blue Penene for Mandela. So I take the government car, go to pharmacy, to pharmacy.
49:59 I found four bottles. I brought it for him, and then he paid for it from his pocket money. He must pay for the Penene, so at least he have blue Penene. Then on his 80th birthday, Kathrada and them, there was a big celebration, his 80th birthday. I was invited there, then they thinking I must hand over blue Penene for Mandela as a present for his 80th birthday.
50:21 So they made a big, big cart where I stand with this blue Penene, and then Mandela was present. Me and Sisulu was standing outside the stoop of his house. Kathrada go inside, he said to Walter Sisulu is outside, he want to come and say hello to you, but he can’t come up the steps. Then Mandela said, of course I will go outside to greet him. When Mandela came out of the steps, I was standing there, and he said oh, course, Mr Brand.
50:46 He came faster to me and he hugged me there, and I congratulated him on his birthday, and he said, Mandela, I bring you those blue Penene, and he was laughing. I used to ask him, are you still using it? He said, of course I’m still using it. Then they teased me, the blue Penene president. He’s famous for that he’s famous for that.
51:03 And what, what were his flaws? He was, his flaws, you know, I mean he was a great man in many ways, you know. You got to see him and know him as a friend, you know. He couldn’t have been perfect in every way, you know. He was very open about, you know, being accepting of everything, but what did he have bad sides?
51:19 Did he have bad days? There was bad days in Mandela’s life. He was not always a person he was always friendly, polite, honest, disciplined, but there was two occasions where Mandela got cross, very cross, where he was want to attack the prison warder, where I think Mandela’d have a stroke, the way he was acting, you know, and that was for Afrikaans newspaper. Then I tried to get the warder away from him, and I tried to calm down Mandela was this island or that, was on Pollsmoor.
51:49 Okay, so he wanted the newspaper so bad, and he wasn’t, he wasn’t, no what happened? Mandela was in isolation and he used to get Afrikaans newspaper. He enrolled for Afrikaans newspaper, wanted to read and read it and understand it, so he was enrolled to the Afrikaans newspaper in South Africa there at Pollsmoor. So at first shift he was isolated alone. Warders was locked with him inside the section, inside a cell with him, so this warder night shift first shift read the Afrikaans newspaper.
52:21 Mr Zman, he bored with this newspaper. Then Mr Zman must be relieved at 12:00, then a person in charge that night sent another warder there to relieve Mr Zman, but five minutes after Mr Zman was released, and there warder is in there. The person in charge found out the person who was working there was a little bit late, and he exchanged the two of them quickly, because only prison warders which have security clearance and background is allowed to work with Mandela.
52:47 He was a selected group, so they take him out, that one, and put another one in. So in his diary, he must fill in who worked there. He wrote Zman, and he wrote a third person. He didn’t write the middle one. Nobody knew about that guy was there, so that guy took the newspaper with him.
53:03 Mandela was asleep, the next morning Mandela asked the one who was there, where’s my newspaper? He said no, there was no newspaper. Then he said can’t be, there was a newspaper. He said there’s no newspaper. Maybe the first shift took it.
53:16 He called me into his cell I was in charge of the office. He said, ask Mr Brand, my newspaper is gone. Mr Z stole my newspaper. He was very upset I found Zman, said he don’t have the newspaper. I said, don’t tell me that, come into Mandela and explain to him yourself you borrow it from him.
53:31 When he came into the section he said to Mandela he don’t have the newspaper. Mandela said don’t lie to me. I gave you the newspaper in your hands. Where’s my paper? I didn’t tell you to give it away, and those who second shift warders don’t have that paper.
53:43 And then he was so upset, and I said, Mandela, calm down, calm down. I said, go take money and buy another newspaper, bring it there. So Mandela didn’t want another newspaper to be bought, but he accepted a newspaper. He was upset. Then Zman left, and only after a while we found out there was a warder in the middle who took the newspaper.
54:01 Okay, was he, was he cross about the newspaper, or was it do you think everything was getting to him at that? He was cross about his newspaper. He was thinking the man is lying, and he hated people to lie for him. He wanted honesty. He didn’t, he hated people.
54:13 He said a person like him, he can do also funny things behind his back. He was very strict on that. Okay, that was one occasion I saw totally cross. Okay, and you thought he was, he was physically, he was physically angry? He was old at this, he was already over 70.
54:29 Yeah, and then a second time I saw him very cross and upset, because one day he was also in this isolation, and Mandela already received contact visits from ’83, sorry, and I said to him, Mandela, there’s a visit for you. Your wife is here without making proper arrangement. His wife turned up at Pollsmoor, and we agreed through the commanding officer that we can give him a visit, as your wife is. Do we accept the visit? Yes, of course, I Mandela, but is not a visit.
54:55 He said, why not? Then I don’t want to visit, so you can’t touch. He, he don’t want to visit. He said when he must go back, if there’s not a contact visit, he don’t want to visit and he stood on his point. Then I reported to the head of the prison.
55:07 What, Mandela? The head of the prison said called Mandela to my office. I said, Mandela, Mr Fit wants to see you. He said about what? I said about your refusing your visit.
55:16 He said, I will tell, F, let me go. So I take him to the head of the prison office, and he tells Major Faet that he doesn’t want to take the visit. Major Faet said, please do me, then one best favour. Go to the visiting booth, it’s not a visit from your Kota. Tell your wife she must go back you don’t accept this visit.
55:34 In your own words you can tell him. He said okay, we’ll do that, when he goes up to the visiting booth. He was through the glass. Winnie Mandela was there with Mrs Delu Sabata’s wife, and she could have seen. She was busy crying and so on.
55:47 And then, when he wanted to tell Winnie that, and Winnie said he bring Sabata’s wife. Sabata had died in exile. Immediately Mandela looked back to me. He said, Mr Brand, I take the visit because it’s a serious thing, what happened here. Sabata’s wife was not first-degree family, that way was not a contact visit.
56:06 So Mandela, after visit, after 30 minutes, he requested me, “Mr Brand, can I have another visit, because I must sort out his problems?” So I said yes, and he carried on with another visit. That was the two occasions I saw Mandela cross. Okay, and that was it. That was it.
56:21 What’s the state of South Africa now? And the politics, is it frustrating that we don’t have another man like Mandela, or what do you see, you know? what is frustrating for me? Mandela built up and took over South Africa with peace, no blood [expletive], and he ran the government clean, with no corruption and things. He laid the foundation for the youth of the new people to take over, but a lot of corruption has happened, and still corruption is still coming out.
56:55 I don’t know what is wrong. But I hope the person who takes over after Mr Zuma, after Mr Zuma, must come into track and sort out the score. Option, then things will be fine again. And how are race relations in South Africa? How are they, you know, in the last five years, or the last 10 years?
57:13 Race relationship, black and white, we don’t have problems. We work nicely together where we get a job. There’s little bit scarceness of white people getting jobs. It’s more black empowerment, black equity plans and all these things in place, but still, where some whites get into a job, there is good relationships between them. And when you come and travel abroad, it’s interesting, because South Africa is a really, it’s such a huge nation.
57:37 It’s got so much history and so much wealth, but when people hear about South Africa, they first want to talk about Mandela and apartheid. Does that frustrate you sometimes? Are there so many more wonderful things about your country you wish people would talk about? No, it’s not frustrating. People want to know the conditions Mandela was in.
57:53 They want to know about the apartheid years. In South Africa, you know, a lot of youth which was born after ’94, even black children, if you ask them about apartheid, they won’t believe you. They didn’t even think it existed. They put it in a history book, so we can learn what was really going on in this country. They don’t know about that.
58:14 But people come from overseas, they still want to experience and see. South Africa has been improved, and a lot of people have seen the improvement. You know, I spoke to an American lady one day. She said she came in the ’80s to South Africa. She said black people, they’re poor, old clothes, bare feet, and it looks, they look very poor.
58:34 When she came to South Africa now, she sees they drive grand cars, they’re nicely dressed. It looks far better. It means things have come better in South Africa. All right. And now you’re an author, and you’re touring to talk about your book.
58:46 You still work on Robben Island? I’m still working on Robben Island. Why do you still work there, because you could obviously choose other things? Why do you choose to go there? After the Constitution was adopted in Parliament, I was looking for another job.
59:00 Then Kathrada said to me, we can accommodate you on Robben Island. We want ex-prisoners to come back. We want ex-warders there to show the reconciliation between prison warders and prisoners, and also show the people who were really there during the struggle, work together as colleagues. So when I arrived there, there were ex-prisoners. They were so happy to see each other.
59:22 We talk about bad things that happened in the past, but we carry on with our work, and we become closer friends, so we understand each other better today. And when tourists came to Robben Island, they can’t not believe that prison warders and prisoners are working together. There was times I’m doing tours with the ex-prisoners and talk about the hardship, the brutality which was here on Robben Island. What we have done to prisoners, how we burned the letters, how we done bad things to them, and the prisoners tell you, they smuggled.
59:53 We didn’t know about all these things, and all this information came out, and we can take hands and we tell the tourists the story. What were the prisoners doing that you didn’t know about on Robben Island? You know, we know they’re smuggling letters. We know they’re smuggling food. There was, we know, but we never knew what conditions or what ways.
1:00:12 Like there was a time we caught this, the tennis ball, out with a slit in, with a letter inside you know. But there was also other ways they smuggled messages through which we didn’t know about, which only came out today. But there was also ways where we listened in and tapped themselves, which they didn’t know what we was doing. Do people ever get, have hatred towards you because you were a prison guard, a prison warden? Or do you think prison wardens are misunderstood?
1:00:38 Explain again. Do people ever have anger at you because of your job as a prison warden, you know? Are they, yeah, now, or the fact, you know, there was people say to me, I’m like a k***r boetie, a what, what? And k***r boetie means you are too in love with the blacks. Okay, they, which we still hate the system which was in which said to me, know your C, how’s your Mandela doing, and that type of thing, you know, people which was cross with me to find out what I was doing.
1:01:05 That yes, they didn’t know about it. There was still a few come forward with that information, but I just laughed off and said that man at least became our president, changed the world to the better. Are there still whites in South Africa who don’t like Mandela? You know, there was a lot of whites when Mandela was released, said no, why they release this man? He should have died in prison.
1:01:28 But after a few years he’s in power, that same people said, when he step down, why they not kept Mandela longer in power at least they successfully do a lot of things better for us. Look, we’re getting salary increases, more better than before. Things have improved here and there, and there better than before, and they was upset that Mandela must retired now, but they understand Mandela was old, he must also come to retirement. You know, that was people who hate him when he came out.
1:01:56 Chains you could have not see the chains, and lot of people which didn’t like some of this people who came out of prison, they are friends. You know, I know there was one white guy who worked with me on Robben Island, and he always said hey, he was swearing, this people, and he’s talking on his own, year, they should have killed them, and that type of thing, and they must put poison in their food, and that mentioned between us, but he didn’t do it. He also joined the ANC.
1:02:21 He was one of the ones who led the ANC in the area where he stayed. Totally the different, opposite person. I could have not believed myself that this man had changed. That was for me very strange. You know, and then on Robben Island I picked up also, while I work there, this guy will swear at this prisoner, political, was swear him, chase him out of his cell as if he’s a rabbish.
1:02:44 I could don’t understand, and you just keep quiet, a PR, do that if I maybe said something wrong, the prison upset, he put a report in against me, but this guy can do it I didn’t understand what’s going on till I found out one day there are friends. He bring him news in, he bring him extra food in, he give him this, doing that for him, and they are friends. I didn’t know that. I only catch them out, and then I just keep quiet. Were you there when President Obama visited Robben Island?
1:03:12 That was pretty powerful for him. That was very powerful for him. I was not that day on the island, but President Obama was there. I was on the island when Mr Clinton visited, and J Jackson, and a lot of these other people, and Hillary Clinton for instance came to Robben Island to visit Robben Island, and then she was visiting South Africa with the TRU and the Reconciliation Commission, and she’ve got her own luxury 21-seat Mercedes bus, and then she said when she arrived with a boat on Robben Island, her bus must be waiting there for her to take her on to her own bus, and then she will donate it for Robben Island.
1:03:49 What happened, they left the bus with a helicopter to fly to Robben Island, and she’s on the boat and halfway to Robben Island, the one cable snap, and helicopter should have, so loosen all the cables, that the bus fell in the water, otherwise he could lose control of the helicopter, and when she arrived in Robben Island, the bus was not there, so she was just in one of our luxury cars on her tour. And if we, if we come to Robben Island, what’s the biggest thing you notice when you get to Robben Island? Is it a beautiful island, or is it a rough place to be?
1:04:21 Is it pleasant? Do you like going back there? Island is like a farm. The vegetation is beautiful. Some of the buildings look old, because you must remember, the buildings was there for the leper colony.
1:04:33 There was a leper colony, or Le Colony, before they burnt out all the buildings, just a structure, stayed behind. Then military took over, that is, they revamped the buildings, and then after the ’60s, prison service took over. Now today, when you get to an island, you see these old buildings. You see this empty prison. You see the grey prison, and you can feel the atmosphere of the struggle which was on Robben Island.
1:04:57 If you especially look through all the graves on Robben Island. There was lepers died there. They made very small graves and put them just under the ground. And things, people which was all against their will on Robben Island was being kept there. Only after 1996, when it was declared as a museum, people go on their free will to Robben Island.
1:05:17 Before that, people went against their will to Robben Island, right? So it has some negative energy there? There is some negative energy, yes. Okay. Do you, do you believe there are old souls there, or do you believe it’s haunted?
1:05:29 If they’re old, yeah. If, do you believe it’s haunted, or do you believe there’s something bad at Robben Island, or do you enjoy going there now? No, I think Robben Island is good. Also, on Robben Island a lot of children be born, but still people feel there’s still ghosts walking around on Robben Island. Okay, especially sleeping in the guest house at night, you hear some sounds which come from nowhere.
1:05:52 One of security, the other day, say to me, he came at 12:00 from duty, and he saw this old man standing next to the house, and he greeted him. And the next night he greeted him every night at 12:00, and then the next day he asked the guy, but who’s staying next to? They said there’s, there’s nobody there. There is nobody. You just see somebody who does not exist, and he was thinking, the people is really there.
1:06:13 There is this people which still, I think, ghosts. If you believe in that, if you believe in maybe in the Rob. And what’s it been like writing a book? And you’re, you know, you’re on a world tour right now. You’re going to Germany next.
1:06:22 What’s it been like for you, you know, doing all this press, and you know, becoming an author? For me, it’s just the book is about reconciliation, like how a prisoner and the prison warder can become friends. The small things I done for Mandela, and the small things he helped me with, like the motorcycle accident, and he gave me advice and led me. He was not, he mentioned me as his friend when he introduced me to people, but it, he feels more like a father to me, because I could have gone to him and asked him some advice, and he will always give you good advice, or he refers you to his lawyer, who came to visit the prison, because I was not allowed to go to his lawyer’s places, because I’m followed.
1:07:03 My telephones was bugged, you know, your telephones were bugged. My telephone was bugged. I was followed, because we was always under security surveillance, also because he was afraid we leaked out information. Okay, which was sensitive for the government at that time. You know, there was times when Mandela was in Pollsmoor, where it was bugged with a microphone.
1:07:24 You were bugged. When I was bugged with the microphone, right, then he must go and give Mandela a message. That was, tell Mandela, how do they feel? Some questions, if they release him tomorrow, something like that, because they’re bargaining with him. So they bargaining with, they, me, with us, and tried to find out where I will feel?
1:07:42 Didn’t they know you were friends? Didn’t they know you two? They didn’t know was friends, but they knew Mandela will maybe talk to the normal warders. Okay, but I was also worried what I was going to say, and I don’t know how to stop him, because I’m bugged, and because sometimes when I walked in a section, Mandela will ask, oh, Mr Brand, can I make you a coffee? And Sisulu will bring me a rusk, and I don’t want the officers to hear that.
1:08:04 That’ll be trouble, I can lose my job. So when I walked inside, I showed him. Oh, Mandela, he said everything all right? I showed I’m bugged. Did he understand right away?
1:08:15 Then he understood right away. You just did that. You touched your ear, touch my ear, and I showed him here, the microphone, the batteries here. I showed him, then I, when I walked in, I told him to shout down, and I explained to him. Then he will greet me.
1:08:27 Oh, hello, Mr Brand, how are you? Then I will talk. I said, Mandela, how’s the garden today? He will talk about his garden and then I will ask him a question, then he will answer me that question. The same night, on television, you will see PW Botha will say, we will never give in on Mandela, on that and that and that and that questions, and Mandela just said this today to me.
1:08:48 What you want the government to know, how you feel. So it was directly feeding back, directly, right away? Yes. And you never thought that maybe you should just not tell him, and get the message back to your superiors, or you were on his side? I was afraid they’d catch me out, because we are friends.
1:09:03 Okay, you know, that’s why I warned him. I was not worried what he’d say, but so long as he would say I must go play table tennis, or he must come and drink a coffee with him, or sit with him, or anything of personal things, I don’t want him to discuss that. Now it’s not the right time, because I’m bugged, and I can’t switch even off the things, because I just walk in, they sit already with a tape, because they listen when I walk in through the doors to him straight.
1:09:26 And then I must be careful. I can’t even warn him. There must be some way I warn him, right? Because when he looked up I showed him, stop, quiet, and then he knew when I started talking. He’ll say, oh, Mr Brand, and he greets me.
1:09:41 You know, it must start from somewhere. You know, Christo, I ask everyone that comes on the show, a couple of questions at the end, and I’m going to ask you these same questions. I was wondering if you could make a phone call to the 20-year-old Christo Brand, and give that young man a bit of advice. What would you tell him? To 20-year-old, yeah, 20.
1:10:03 I will tell him, you must study, art. You must look after your future. You must help people around you, that the world can become a better country. You mustn’t just think for yourself. You must really go the extra mile for your human beings around you.
1:10:17 Then you will be become a richer person in life, not physically richer in money, but a richer person in your mind and your everything you’re doing. People will respect you for what you’re doing, same as Mandela was giving advice. We must live his legacy forward, and give people advice, help people go the extra mile, and assist him when you spend time with someone like Nelson Mandela. Do you feel like you’re not doing enough when you see him do all these powerful things, you know, to make the nation better?
1:10:47 You know, after Mandela was released I was saying to myself, I should have done more for him in prison, even before he became president. And then he recognised me. I said, I can’t believe, I’m just a normal warder. I was a warrant officer, but he should have hated us. He should have forgotten about the prison warders, but still he contacted me.
1:11:05 He wanted to be in touch. He didn’t want to lose our friendship, not only Mandela, even Kathrada. He found me. He invited me for dinner. Even my last prisoner was released in 1991, the day when he was released, that same night his lawyer phoned me.
1:11:20 They came and collected me. I must have dinner with him. He wanted me to have dinner with him for the first, before he left Cape Town. You know, it was very strange, but it’s just because I was helping them, assisting them, and gave them some messages and small things, which I didn’t recognise. They must pay back for me.
1:11:40 One day, you know, they talk about something I think called the Stockholm syndrome, where sometimes people bond with people that kind of were there oppressing them. Do you think there was something strange about that, where you were there, you know, so close to them when they were having those hard times, and you kind of represented the authority, you know, for me. One day, I will just speak about other prisoners now. One day there were prisoners who tried to cut the bars and that morning the head of the prison sent a group in, and I was in charge of that section.
1:12:11 There were political prisoners, and they opened their batons, and they said they must come out of the cells, put them in chains, to block them in single cells. They refused, they started beating with the batons. They gave me a bat and I go in. I just walked away because I don’t want to see there. I can’t stop now, then I’m in trouble.
1:12:26 I just walked away, and then I talked to one of them. When they came out, please come with me, don’t worry, that’s come, so I locked him up, and I feel very painful, you know. That’s every time I feel there, if I was also been hit by those batons. I feel sorry for these guys, and then we locked, I locked them up and calmed them down, and they was isolated alone, but after a while, the cells was loaded, locked. I could have let them come together, open the door, that they can talk to each other quietly, not making a noise, because they was trusting me.
1:12:54 They understood me. They said, oh, you work with Mandela? There was a lot of occasions I took some of these detainees, of them, privately to Mandela, sell quickly without nobody know that, or I know Mandela is coming down the passage. I bring him down to hospital. I’ll make sure that somebody else brings another prisoner to meet, like Ibrahim Rosil, for instance.
1:13:15 He was detained. He never, he was fighting for Mandela’s release, and everything. He was detained under Section 5 in the regulation act, and so on. But I said to him one day, I want you to meet Mandela. He was really love to meet Mandela, and then I just wait my chance at lunch hour time, when all the officers are on lunch, and just walk with him down.
1:13:34 If they ask, where are you taking the detainee? To doctor. And just before the doctor, I slipped into the courtyard from the backside. Mandela’s on exercise, then I called Mandela. I said, let’s just greet quickly.
1:13:45 I take him back again without nobody knowing about that, you know. There was a few things like Trevor Manuel met Mandela for the first time on Robben Island, at Pollsmoor prison, while he was detained. A lot of them I take to Mandela just to give them, also, what I was fighting for: Mandela’s release. They’re fighting, but they have never seen this guy. They don’t know this guy.
1:14:05 So I think these young ones really want to see their leader. So I take them to their leader, and Mandela was also very happy for that, but he was worried. He said, Mr Brand, you’re taking chances. If they catch out, if the people talk out, you will be locked up. And I said, Mandela, I know my people can keep a secret.
1:14:23 We’re just trying to trust on that, and they keep it secret. You know, the second part of that question about advice is, what’s the best advice you’ve ever received in your life from Mandela? Yeah, maybe from Mandela, best advice. There was a lot of advice he gave me. I must look after my family.
1:14:43 I’m a responsible father. He must, he said, you love your children, spend time with your children, because we never have that time to spend with our children, and also make sure you help them and put pressure on them that they can go far in life. Let them encourage and study. Art, that’s a future of this country. He really regretted not spending time with his family.
1:15:04 That’s one of the things he regretted the most, right? That’s correct, cuz he lost touch with a lot of his children and grandchildren. Is that right? He lost touch with his children. He hasn’t never seen his children grown up.
1:15:13 He only saw them as adults when he came out of prison. And there was one occasion after he retired, I asked Mandela how many grandchildren he has, because he started calling in his grandchildren, introduced me to all of them, which was there that day. And he said to me, Mr Brand, I stopped counting my grandchildren. I’ve got a lot, but at least we have seen his grand and grand-grandchildren. Right, last part of that question is to the 20-year-old that’s listening to us around the world, that could be in South Africa or China or America.
1:15:42 What advice do you give to them after everything that you’ve learned, and what you see now, the way you wrote this book? What advice do you have to the young, to the young kids? For young kids: study, art, build up your future, look after your families, be respectful and disciplined in what you’re doing, and go fully out to live your life and help people around you, where you see people are suffering, struggling, take out your hand and give them a hand and help them up.
1:16:11 Okay, good, good advice. What’s next for you in the next few years? What’s your plan? Are you going to do more books? No, I don’t think so.
1:16:20 I’m very, you know, Mandela was fighting me about my studies, and really was very lazy to study. I was also taking a long time after they fight me to write this book, taking a long time to get the book finalised, get it. I finished, but if I can retire earlier, I will start working on my hobby. You know, my hobby is liking to work on cars. Okay, I like to work with my hands on cars, not only working paperwork and things, but physically working on cars.
1:16:46 And if it’s possible, I can stay in a place where some big yard I will have, want to have a garden. Mandela was a gardener, he loved to make gardening, even when he have his garden on Pollsmoor prison. I was staying also in the house there, and I also have a big garden around the house, where I’ve always fresh vegetables and things in my own garden. I would love to do that again. Okay, good.
1:17:07 Yeah, gardening. I like working on cars as well. So, and if people come down to Cape Town and they go out to Robben Island, they can, they can find you. They can find me on Robben Island, if I’m still there, but at the moment I’m still there. They can find me.
1:17:20 They can ask any of the ex-prisoner tour guides where they can find me at the moment. I run the cafeteria on Robben Island, and mostly of my time I spend some time at some of the cafeterias. When the bus stops there, the tour guide said, only maybe there’s luck, you can meet Mr Brand who looked after Mandela, and then I’m there. Then I must always call to the bus and give them a two-minute talk quickly on the bus about my experience on Robben Island with Mandela and others.
1:17:47 And then they’re very happy taking photos and everything, and then they leave. You’re like a rock star. And then also one morning, I always be our stuff. Bo to Robben Island at 7:30, but I’m quarter to 7 at work. And just the week before I came here, that Friday, that one morning, quarter to 7, there were three old ladies from America already waiting for me.
1:18:08 They tried to find, that they must reach me. They must see me. I must sign a book for them, but that was a book of Mandela. They waited quarter to 7 for me there, just to meet me and take a photo. They really want to see me, because they heard I’m still working on Robben Island.
1:18:23 Right, it’s fantastic. I never made it to Robben Island when I was in Cape Town, so I might come back and see you, but it’s fantastic that the real prisoners and former warders are working there, because it’s just so much history, and it makes it more real. So how do people get a hold of your book? Is it going to be in stores around them? Is it on, will it be in stores around in London?
1:18:41 They said in all the stores, okay, in the UK, and it will be also in Germany, near out. I don’t know what other countries, but I know in South Africa it will be also out, especially on Robben Island, will be available on Robben Island. I will put a special stamp in front of the book. We’ll say “bought on Robben Island, free at last of Mandela.” And if I’m there, I will autograph it for them.
1:19:01 Fantastic. Well, it’s called Mandela: My Prisoner, My Friend. I really enjoyed this. I enjoyed the pictures as well, and yeah, it was, everyone was really excited when I told them what I was doing today. It’s just such an interesting story.
1:19:14 People have a lot of love from Mandela, and it’s just such a strange story. I don’t think there’s anything like it. You know, the friendship you have with him. You know, lot of tourists can’t believe that the ex-prison guard is still working with ex-prisoners on Robben Island, and we show them, and we have sometimes special VIP tours, especially me and the ex-prisoner must do, especially the tour for them. It’s powerful.
1:19:38 You’re sending a strong message to the world about where South Africa has come, when you’re doing that. And I’m sure if somebody visits South Africa and they pass Robben Island, they haven’t done a proper tour in South Africa. It means Robben Island is one of the ones where they must really go to see and experience, themselves, where Mandela was incarcerated. Some people said the place looks so friendly and everything, but that place was isolated. It was very cold in winter, with rough and stormy seas.
1:20:06 Very cold. In summer it becomes extremely hot. Different, you know. We will get days on Robben Island where it’s raining the whole week, then in Cape Town the sun is shining the whole week. That is opposite weather conditions on Robben Island, right?
1:20:19 So they have to go there if they’re making a trip to South Africa. Fair enough. Christo, I wish you all the best on your journey. Thanks so much for coming to see us and talking to us. As we say on London Real, it’s about the journey, and all the best with yours.
1:20:33 Thank you, sir. All right, take care. Thank you. This week on London Real, we have Edward Snowden’s attorney, Jesselyn Radack. Edward Snowden made a, the only choice he could make, which was to go outside of the United States to blow the whistle.
1:21:04 What we’re going through now, people should be marching in the streets over what NSA is doing. There has been so much fearmongering by the government that they’ve been able to create an entire surveillance state. And former NSA executive turned whistleblower, Thomas Drake: “What I was blowing the whistle on was government illegality, violations of the Constitution, massive fraud, waste and abuse, and wrongdoing. This was raw power. This was the government saying, you know what, 9/11 is our excuse.
1:21:37 We’re just going to get the data. I was facing 30 to 35 years, plus in prison, to send a chilling message to, whom, to other whistleblowers, to others in the government: you dare hold up a mirror to the government, if you dare speak truth to power, or of power, we’re going to hammer you, and hammer you good.” On Sunday, London Real presents Jesselyn Radack and Thomas Drake, NSA whistleblower. “We just don’t do this to Americans. That’s why we had an American Revolution.”
