Matt Willis - Busted

Full transcript: Matt Willis on London Real

8:19 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Matt Willis, who is a founding member of the pop rock band Busted, as well as a television presenter, actor and designer. Busted had four number one singles in the UK and released four studio albums before breaking up in January 2005. More to come about that. After the split, you released a solo album that included three top 20 singles in the UK.

8:41 You have acted in Birds of a Feather, EastEnders, and your first movie, Allies. In 2013, you returned to music, forming Supergroup, Busted with members of McFly and Busted, including Danny Jones, who was our guest here last year. That’s how I met you backstage at the O2. You have two children with your wife, Emma, one on the way. And now, Busted is back. Matt Willis, welcome to London Real.

9:04 Thank you very much. It’s very surreal to be here. But awesome. I love being here. Thank you very much for having me.

9:11 It’s my pleasure. I think you are the single guest that’s watched probably or listened to more episodes of London Real than anyone else. You reckon? Yeah. I think I might be. I’m genuinely a fan. I’ve been listening to you for a long time.

9:25 I got all the guys from McBusted to start listening to you. And especially Danny. Danny and Dougie loved it instantly. Danny took something from it immediately. I think I found you at just the right time.

9:40 In my life, I found all these different ways of thinking. I started listening to the Joe Rogan podcast. And I heard about you guys. I started listening to you. And Tim Ferriss and all these different thinking humans.

9:56 Which was a very un-British thing to do. To open your mind to all different kinds of things. Maybe think slightly differently. You think that’s un-British. I was thinking about this recently.

10:12 For instance, something happened to me. And I started to think more positively with my life. And I started to think, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can do that. And I thought, maybe that’s some…

10:29 And I don’t know. Maybe I’ve been thinking the opposite for such a long time. And why was that? And I think it’s quite a natural thing when you grow up. Where I come from, especially in Britain.

10:45 It’s a very British thing to say, Don’t get too big for your boots. Don’t get ideas above your station. Know where you are and where you come from. And it’s not encouraged to expand. Is that a class thing? Is it because we’re all on an island?

11:04 But you see it in the media. You see the stars getting ripped down. When Americans come over here, they’re like, what’s going on? It seems a little weird. I don’t know whether it is a class thing.

11:16 But it might be. If you think of who reads the tabloid newspapers, that is maybe a working class person who reads those papers. I don’t know. Maybe there’s something about us who just don’t want to see people succeed more than we are. Do you know what I mean? And that sucks.

11:39 And you think you were going down that with your own mind, and then you started listening to people that were talking about new ideas, new perspectives, and that you really just hooked into that at the right point in your life. I know you said when you were 30, you woke up and you were like, OK, wait a second. I want to really do this, right? Yeah, completely, man. I think for me, I come from a way of slightly self-loathing.

12:12 If I think properly, one thing that I’m sure we’ll get onto it, but one thing that going to rehab multiple times taught me was I have a massive self-loathing button. I hate myself, and I’m shit, and I’m this, and I’m that. I’ll react on that, and I’ll do anything I can to stop feeling that. And that would be take drugs or drink or do anything. Or achieve a massive amount of success.

12:38 Yeah, completely. But then there was the other part of me, which was never happy where I was. Even growing up, I think about it now. This is ridiculous, but my wife presents The Voice, and there’s another show called X Factor. People knock these shows and say, they’re not real musicians, they’re not real artists and stuff like that.

13:06 I was thinking, man, if I was 20 and I hadn’t done anything, and I was still in my hometown, I would totally have done that show. I would have done anything possible to get out of where I was. I would have been a fucking hairdresser, anything to move me out of where I was and achieve something which got me out of the situation I was in. Where do you think that self-loathing comes from? Can you place it? Do you try to understand it more?

13:37 Is it a childhood thing? I think it’s something I was born with. I don’t feel it so much anymore. Like I said, something happened to me when I turned 30 and I went, enough is enough. I’m going to try and make the most of any opportunity I possibly can.

14:01 I’m going to try and make the most of that opportunity. Do you think you were self-sabotaging there? I hear a lot of people say this, but I was waiting to get bound out. I was like, fuck, man, I can’t believe this is happening to me. This shouldn’t be happening to me. I don’t deserve it.

14:20 This kind of stuff. When Busted first happened, when I was 18, I met James when I was 16, and before we knew it, we were signed, we had a record deal, we had a song on the charts. But I still felt like we were this silly little group that no one really cared about. Suddenly we were the biggest band in the UK. But I still didn’t feel like that.

14:45 When you’re in it, I just felt like, for instance, we go to something like the Brit Awards or something and I would never want to look at anybody or keep catching on his life because I feel like an imposter being or something like that. Whereas we fucking won two awards at that award ceremony and I felt embarrassed to go out and make the award up because someone’s going to go, hey, you shouldn’t be here. Do you see young musicians now that you’re like, I can tell he feels that way or she feels that way?

15:08 Or do you think they hide it just as well as you did? I think they probably hide it just as well as I did. Yeah, I think I don’t know that many young musicians now. People always say about Michael Jackson that as soon as the age he got fame, that’s the age he stayed at the rest of his life. It’s kind of a cliche, they say, about young stars.

15:29 Colin Kalkin got famous when he was 10 and he acted like 10 for the rest of his life, Michael Jackson the rest. I mean, when you got that famous at 18, and a lot of the guys in McFly and Busted, same kind of thing. Danny said, like, 1918, does that not ever give you a chance to kind of go into your 20s and keep maturing? Because now the spotlight is on you. Is it hard to grow up?

15:50 I don’t know. Like, I think I was in a situation which was overbearing in some ways, but I don’t think it stopped me maturing because I saw other people maturing. Like, for instance, Charlie from Busted, he was way beyond his years when he was 16 years old. He was a grown-up in some ways, do you know what I mean? And I was never that, you know?

16:17 But I didn’t really want to be. I just wanted to have fun and fucking do cool shit. I didn’t really think too much about that kind of stuff. So you’re at the Brit Awards. How old were you then when you got those two awards?

16:27 Twenty. Okay, that’s intense. Yeah, yeah, twenty. And what were the next few years like? You know, you personally and professionally, and then, yeah, why slash how did Busted end that first time?

16:39 Well, I think the thing is, if I think about it now, like, it was me and James, when me and James met, we were 16, right? And we auditioned for another band, and we didn’t get it. And then we kind of met, and I kind of knew him and I went to theatre school, and he was on the same agent as me, like the same child acting agent as me. And so I kind of knew him from kind of auditions and things. And so in the end, I went to see him in South End and we started to kind of work together.

17:09 We wrote some songs, and it just kind of went from there. Before we knew it, it was more than just writing songs in a bedroom just for fun. It was kind of becoming something which people seemed to have interest in, which just blew our mind because we were writing silly songs about fancying school teachers and stuff, and they were landing on Simon Cowell’s desk, and he wanted to sign us in this fucking crazy shit that you’d never think could possibly happen to you, what’s happening to you, you know?

17:38 And then it kind of just carried on, you know? So by the time we got to the Brits, it was hard to imagine doing anything else, if you know what I mean. It was kind of like, right, cool, I’m just going to be in this band and it’s going to be great forever. Like kind of ignoring the fact that actually this is not the greatest harmonious working environment and maybe this is going to split up, you know? We just kind of… I just kind of try to enjoy it as much as I possibly could.

18:10 And how long did that last? What? The busted phenomenon from like 20. When did you guys split up? Well, I think from 18, when we released What I Got a School For, which was our first single, that kind of…

18:22 It never stopped until when we split up. So we split up in 2005 and we started in 2002. So it was only three years. But like when I think of that time, I can’t think of a longer three years in my life. Like that is the longer…

18:39 I feel like that was such a massive part of my life, you know? So yeah, it was three years before ending. And big moments from that time, was it playing, you know, playing big gigs? Was it the travel? It’s kind of everything.

18:53 I mean, the travel was cool. Like I liked traveling. I liked going different places. I liked being in a suitcase, you know, like going around everywhere. I didn’t really mind that.

19:03 I didn’t really ever feel the need to go home. Actually, when I would go home, I’d get a little bit bummed out, kind of sit in my flat. I had this flat and made a vow and I kind of sit there and go, I don’t want to be here. I want to be playing shows and doing stuff. You know, I loved performing.

19:17 Ever since the young age, like ever since like, you know, I think, you know, when I first heard I Sized Baby by Vanilla Rice, that was a changing moment for me. Like I heard that song. It’s just like, I want to fucking be Vanilla Rice. You know, so I did everything I possibly could. I learned the fucking album backwards.

19:35 You know, I rehearsed it in my mirror. I kind of shaved bricks into the side of my head, you know, I did the whole thing, you know. So ever since then, and then I did like, you know, kind of talent shows and things like that. And local things, local theater groups, anything I could to kind of get, to get this out of me, this kind of performance mode, you know, I kind of, I enjoyed, I thrived on. So many people, it’s funny because Joe Rogan says the same kind of thing.

20:01 He said, and I said, I remember before I met Joe, I tweeted out, I’m like, I’m my, my, you know, I’m my worst critic and sometimes my greatest fan, you know, and it’s like sometimes I’m so hard on myself. And I remember Joe was like tweeting back, I was like, me too. And if you see some really successful people, a lot of times they’re driven to that because it’s never good enough for them. And Joe’s the same way. I mean, I’m not putting myself next to you and Joe, but like I always is never good enough for me.

20:26 And that can be great to get things done. It can also be hard to live with that guy. Completely completely. And sometimes that’s why substances come into it because you need a break from yourself for a few hours a day. Yeah, man. I think you’re right.

20:38 Like I’m, like I’ve never, like, I don’t think I’ve ever looked at anything I’ve done and been completely happy with anything. I don’t think I ever will. You know, you know, scarily enough, like, like if I ever watch anything I do, like, for instance, acting is something which I love. You know, I love it so fucking much. You know, I really, really love it.

21:01 But I hate watching myself. Like, like, and everyone will say that was amazing. I’m like, oh, that was fucking terrible. Look at this, you know, like, I can’t, I can’t, I kind of got to the point where I stopped watching anything I did because it just ate me up too much. I can see that because with music, you know, especially if you cut the album and produce it in studio, you’re probably somewhat happy with that.

21:24 But with the film, it’s like, it’s that one take, probably not even your favorite take, and then they put it in and you can see so many flaws about you. Yeah, I think, well, and also with music, we wrote the music, we created the music, we lived with that music for a long time, like, so, and the recording process, you record a song, you’d rerecord it, you get something else in, you change it, you know, so it’s different, whereas acting, you’re there to do a job and you have to deliver, you know, and that’s a lot of pressure, you know, but I think I’m watching it back. It’s never true that you’re part of somebody else’s vision, you know, and like, and all I can see is I’m letting down the video.

22:04 Do you know what I mean? Like, I see that all parts of that. All right, I want to talk about your acting future soon. First, I want to tell you my McBusted story. Can I tell you that?

22:12 Yeah, please do. Okay, so whenever people ask me about you or about Danny or McBusted or any of that, I talk about when I went to the O2, so Danny, I think, was on the show, he’s like, Brian, come to a show, so I went to the O2, he’s like, come backstage, and I was like, okay, now I got to tell everybody, I’m going backstage to see McBusted, and I go back there, and there’s Bulletproof Coffee everywhere, you’re there, Doug, he’s there, Danny’s there, you guys are super cool, super relaxed, hanging out, offering to make me Bulletproof Coffee. I’m like, okay, and it’s getting close to showtime, it’s like 40 minutes out, and I’m like, all right, guys, do you have to do voice exercises?

22:44 Yeah. Do you have to all hold hands, do you have to chant? And you’re like, oh, we’re good, we’re good, and I was just like, okay. And finally, I left you guys, I think, about 30 minutes in, I went out to the O2 and just sat there, and then the lights went down, and six of you guys popped up through holes in the stage, and you guys rocked the place for two hours. Yeah.

23:03 Like, rocked it. And I was like, these guys are motherfucking professionals. Like, you know, and like, I should have known that already, but I was just watching you, and you guys go, you guys do not stop for two hours. Not to mention the DeLorean that’s coming out of the ceiling of the O2, and then you’re back here, but you guys, and it’s six guys, so to coordinate all that, and I know it takes lots of work, and I was just like, wow, and you’re playing with the stage, you’re out there having fun, you’re super present, and you were like, joking with people way up in the stands, and here, and here, and pausing for those moments, like a good comedian would, like Eddie, you know, and I was just like, wow, I know, I was just super impressed with how professional you guys were, and how talented you were.

23:41 Thank you very much. And I guess that comes with years of practice, right? I suppose so, you know, it’s kind of, for instance, I watched the first, like, because when Busted were first out, we made a DVD of our show at Wembley, and no, it was at Manchester, and I watched that recently, like, I watched like a few songs, because my daughter wanted to watch it, so I sat down, I watched it with her. Did you have to force yourself to watch it? I had to force myself to watch it, and it was horrendous to watch, like, it was, because, you know, it was like 18, 19, you know, suddenly, we played like a few shows, like in theaters, and then the album went massive, and we were suddenly playing arenas full of people, you know, like Wembley Arena, you know, we’d only probably played 30 gigs in our life, and suddenly, you’re in an arena, you know, so you don’t know how to control that environment, you don’t really know how to be, I don’t know, like, be a presence on that stage for people to watch and be able to vibe off of, you know, and I think that’s come over time, you know, how to get that, I still feel like I get shit wrong all the time, you know, I kind of get a bit carried away, especially with talking, like, talking is something which doesn’t come naturally to me on stage, you know, but it’s becoming more natural to me to chat between songs, you know, because, you know, in a weird way, I feel like me in a band is me playing me in a band,

25:09 In a way, you know, like when I walk on stage, like, I don’t walk around going, you know, but put me on stage and I’ll fucking do that for two hours, you know, and I’m not happy unless I feel like I’ve given every single ounce of myself on stage, you know, that’s why I kind of, I come off dripping wet and, you know, and exhausted, you know, but it’s always worth it. And you have to leave it all on the stage? Yeah, completely, like, if I don’t, like, we did this one show and I was pissed off about something and it really annoyed me because I brought it onto the stage with me and for the first, like, kind of six or seven songs, we played this race course last summer, for the first six or seven songs, I was really fucking bummed out and I wasn’t doing my job and I was thinking about this thing over in my head and I gave a terrible performance and, like, after six or seven songs, that you had to fucking, like, wake myself up and go, you are performing to, you know, 20,000 people fucking get your fucking shit together.

26:09 How can you do that on the fly? Because you’re out there, there’s no, there’s no inhibition, you guys go for two hours, that’s no joke. So how can you snap yourself out of it? I think it’s something about the crowd, like, for instance, I do this thing where I try to interact with people. Like, if you look at the crowd, it’s a fucking sea of people, right?

26:28 But if you look at one person, it’s just a person having an experience with you, you know, so I try to treat everybody in there like that, you know, like, so I will try to catch as many people’s eyes as I possibly can and have a moment with that person. And I find if I have a moment with someone and we share a moment, the people around them ripple, you know, it’s just a ripple effect, like, before you know it, you’ve got like a whole, and that’s how you build a relationship with the audience. And you did that at the O2 because you guys, you guys zoom in and put people on the screens.

26:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys have these things with them so I can see what you’re doing there. And I guess that’s good for you too, because then you’re connected with the audience. Yeah, completely, man, completely. And you guys do skits too, and the thing is, is that people probably really do want you to chat, because they’re in love with your music, but they’re also in love with you guys, and they probably remember some of the chat stuff, you know, more than the song.

27:18 I think especially in McBusted, like it became something where it was, it was different to anything either band had ever done before. You know, it wasn’t busted, and it wasn’t McFly, even though we were playing busted songs on McFly songs. It was something, it was a different entity. It was kind of much more of a performance. Like, we were an act, we were kind of doing something which was a real show.

27:43 Like, I loved being in that band. I loved it so much. How do you get six guys on that stage? Like, when you guys all popped up, I was like, this is a choreographing nightmare. Plus, you got six different personalities.

27:55 Maybe one guy’s having a weird night like you did at the race course. Maybe some other guy is. I mean, how do you get six guys to all be there on the same page, on the same night, to cruise around that huge circular stage and drop in the night? How do you guys make that happen? I don’t know. I don’t know.

28:12 I think, one, be prepared, because you don’t want to be thinking about anything else but being present, which is something which always played on me in Busted. I’m not a very naturally gifted musician. For instance, James and Charlie from Busted are both amazingly gifted natural musicians. They can kind of take to anything and they’ll give them a piano if they can play it within fucking an hour, they’ll be playing something. Must be really annoying.

28:45 I do not have that. I do not have that. Even with bass lines and shit, I have to fucking work so hard at that shit. I have a bass coach now. I go see him twice a month before tour.

28:58 I’ll go see him twice a week and then I’ll see him for an hour before we start rehearsal every day. Because I’m just not happy enough. I just want to be better. That’s good. I mean, Sylvester Stallone is still taking acting classes.

29:12 Yeah, totally. I see that as a good thing. It’s important to me to not have to worry about what I’m doing. I want this to be just natural. This and this to be natural.

29:27 Because as soon as I have to think about this and this, it takes me out of the experience. However much this playing and singing is important when you’re going to see a band live, I think being captured in the vibe and the ambiance is a really important part of that. I mean, the essence of performing is being present. Completely, yeah. And people feel that in a heartbeat.

29:53 And they know whether you’re there or not. Completely. Same on stage, same in film. But in live, it’s harder to fake. Yeah, I think so.

30:03 But it all comes down to being prepared as long as you’re prepared. The rest of it is just fun. Okay. Danny said when you guys prepared for a busted tour, he’s like, we have a military, you know, hard stop training schedule. And like everyone’s there. There’s no excuses.

30:17 We do all this. We do all this. And I remember he told me the interview, and I was like, that sounds pretty cool. But I’m guessing that’s true because to watch you guys do that, it must have been practiced. Yeah, I think we rehearsed a lot.

30:29 And with busted now, we’ll rehearse a lot because we haven’t played together for 12 years. So that’s going to be a weird vibe. We haven’t rehearsed yet. But that’s to come. Okay, that’s fine.

30:37 But that’s exciting. But with busted, it was kind of cool because McFly had been a band for 10 years. They’ve been playing shows all the time. But suddenly we injected this difference to them. And they vibed off of it.

30:49 And me and James walked into a unit which was already operating. So it kind of felt like we were kind of joining a band in a way. We kind of joined McFly. You know, rather than we came together to do one thing, me and James felt like we were joining McFly. And then once we started rehearsing, once we started going through things, it became something very different.

31:10 It became like a totally new band and experience. Did you feel like equals, or will you always be the two guys from busted in the 6th? I think we’d always be the two guys from busted in the 6th. But that was cool. We didn’t mind that.

31:26 I like that. Plus, I loved those McFly guys. And it wasn’t like I was joining a band I didn’t know. I knew those guys really well. Dougie is one of my best friends in the world.

31:35 So it was a really easy transition. It was kind of like going to work with your mates. Okay. They all seem super cool guys. So I know it was busted in McFly.

31:47 You guys announced this coming together the 6th of year. And I remember Danny was like, you just started selling out, selling out shows, selling out shows. It reminds me of like a tech startup around here. You guys put up like an MVP, like a product, and then people wanted it. So you guys were like, let’s do this.

32:02 You guys toured like Mad Men for a couple years? Yeah, two years. Two years. Why did it stop? It stopped because busted happened.

32:16 The unthinkable happened. I think it was like about five years ago, I decided I wanted to get busted back together. And I really, really, really missed being in that band. I miss James Bourne. He’s one of my best friends in the world.

32:32 Like I love him. He’s a fucking nightmare, but he’s amazing. He produces plays on Broadway. Yeah, he writes musicals. He writes songs for other artists.

32:41 Like he’s an amazing dude. And me and them were still close, you know. So we talked about it loads. And we were like, the thing is, Charlie left the band 12 years ago and then went on to say some negative things about the band and kind of position himself in a different genre of music where him coming back to busted was never an option. Like he kind of, he’d separate himself so far from it.

33:05 From the bridges. Yeah, he burned the bridges. It was just never going to happen. We would accept him back, but it was just, I felt like it had gone too far to ever return to that. And also, I didn’t think he’d ever want to.

33:20 He seemed to have had a bad time towards the end. So that was five years ago. So we went to talk to Charlie. He said, we want to do this again. Do you want to do it?

33:32 He said no. What was he doing at the time? He was doing, just about to release a solo record. He was in a band called Fight Star who were quite a successful metal band. And he was, he’d just done a solo record.

33:45 He was about to release that. So you were still talking to him? James was. Not really. Not really.

33:52 No, not really. Like we hadn’t seen each other for years. We talked. But a few kind of legal shit happened every kind of now and then that we had to kind of talk through lawyers about kind of money and stuff like that. Like things happen when you’re in a business together and then you’re not in a business and stuff happens.

34:07 You know, you kind of have to talk through lawyers and stuff. But we had never sat down together and we sat down together. And this was probably about four years ago now, I think. We sat in Charlie’s house and I was kind of dreading it. I was kind of like, oh man, it’s going to be awkward and weird.

34:24 And it just wasn’t, you know, it was just kind of felt cool. And we were all suddenly men. Yeah, you know, sitting down, talking about something which seemed like happened to three different guys. You know, like it was just like, but it was a really cool experience. And we talked about music and what we’re into and what we were loving.

34:45 And what was the biggest thing was James and Charlie, when the band broke up, couldn’t have been on different sides of music. Like they loved completely different things and they hated pretty much everything that each other liked. You know, so it was a really, really weird relationship. But that, it was very apparent that that wasn’t the case anymore. They were actually bonding on music, which was a big thing.

35:12 So something changed then. And something kind of, I don’t know, a seed was planted that maybe, I don’t know why, but like something’s happened here. I know he’s just said no, but this may not be no forever. Okay, so you’ve been at his house five years ago. He said no, but there was something.

35:31 But there was something there, you know. So in the meantime, McBusted kind of happened. So we kind of, so we did McFly, we did McBusted with McFly. And just before we were about to play our first gig, James talked to Charlie. He kind of went to say, by the way, dude, we’re going to do this.

35:53 You know, like, we’re about to go on tour with McFly as McBusted. You know, just thought I’d let you know. And he was like, oh, right. And he kind of went, I think I probably wouldn’t be so against doing Busted again. You know, which was, and James told me this just before I went on stage of McFly for the first fucking time.

36:18 Like, and my mind was already in this McFly thing. I was like, great, this is going to be awesome. You know, we’re going to play, you know, maybe play shows together. This is going to be great. This is before, like, we announced a tour or anything.

36:29 And he fucking told me that. I was like, are you kidding? You know, like, it was like, this is coming from Voldemort. You know, like, I couldn’t believe that this was happening. And so, but then it was too late in my mind.

36:43 I was like, are we going to do this McBusted thing? So we kind of started the McBusted thing. Was there ever an option to get Charlie into McBusted? Charlie would not have done that. Not his style.

36:53 Not his style at all. Why not? Because he’s just a different kind of dude. He’s not into… I don’t know.

37:01 That’s just not his thing. You know, he’s a music guy. He’s not a success or kind of money or anything or kind of big show. He doesn’t really care about that. He just cares about music.

37:14 And he’s very passionate, very kind of… And it’s admirable the way he thinks about things, you know. But he was not into McBusted, you know. And they didn’t really get why we were doing this, you know. And so after about a year of being in McBusted, I found out that James was still talking to Charlie every now and again and kind of texting each other.

37:36 And so before we knew it, we were having a chat with Charlie about the potential of doing Busted with him. And it was literally the most… I remember having that meeting kind of going away, going, oh my God. Like this was something which I put to bed. I thought this was never going to happen.

37:57 But I always really wanted it to. And suddenly it was a reality. And he was going to come back and we were going to do it. Okay. And you decided that when you were still finishing up a tour with McBusted?

38:07 Yeah, we were kind of on the second tour with McBusted. We were kind of talking to Charlie. We were very open with McFly about it. I didn’t want anything to be in secret or I felt like we were kind of cheating on them. So I kind of didn’t want them to feel weird about it.

38:23 So I was very open with them. I was very honest and very told them everything. And they were cool. They supported Busted for two tours. They were our friends. They were our support band.

38:34 They saw Busted become Busted. They were kind of like from behind us. And then we ended and it was McFly’s time and McFly became huge. So they knew how much it meant to us. And especially I think me, they kind of knew how much this kind of meant to me.

38:53 So they were cool. But by you going to Busted now, you kind of ruined the McBusted idea. They can’t tour McBusted without your friends. No, they can’t. So is there a tough feeling about that?

39:04 No, I think it kind of… I think it had run its course with McBusted. I mean, it’s not the end. We can go and visit this again in a couple of years, hopefully. That’s what I’d like to do.

39:18 But I think they would too. I don’t feel like we have to end anything. I think it’s just the end of a chapter. For instance, the second tour wasn’t as big as the first tour. It was still massive. It wasn’t as big.

39:32 So I was like, let’s do this now and then we can revisit this. It’s a great option to have, right? Yes, amazing option. And like you said, the first tour was big, second tour not as big. Album didn’t do so well?

39:43 No. And is that always a sign? Is that just a little bit of a feedback loop? I think if I think about it, the more I think about it, we should never have made an album. It was not what people wanted.

39:58 McBusted wasn’t that. It wasn’t a band. It was something which just happened when the six of us got on stage. I don’t think we should have made a record, if I’m honest. But you did.

40:08 But we did because we had the opportunity and the opportunity was there. We struck it. We did the record and we did the album. And also we thought it might prolong it and we kind of get… And also you never know what’s going to happen when you go in the studio.

40:19 You really never know what’s going to happen. Where did you create the album? Was it six of you? Was it here in the UK? The McBusted album? It was here in the UK.

40:27 It was a very different experience to any of us I’d ever had making an album because there were six chefs. It’s really weird. Did you get a producer in? We got a producer in. We got a few different producers.

40:41 We’d go off in twos and threes and meet with other people and write songs and bring them all together and play them to the producer. It was a strange album making process. Is that the wrong way to make an album? I think it works for some people. It’s a very pop way to do it.

40:59 It’s a very pop way to make an album. You just go fishing and sometimes you catch a fish. It’s very much like that. I don’t think we really knew what we were musically or as a band. It was a very weird experience.

41:16 The popular songs when you were on tour were busted songs or McFly songs that you played and those were the ones you would play and a few of the ones you created. Yeah. That’s good for me to know. Now you just came back from LA. Three of you, Charlie, James and you, cut a new album.

41:34 Just tell me what is that like? When all of us go to LA, I just saw the new NWA movie. Oh really? Straight Outta Compton. It’s really good.

41:46 But they show them in studio and Dre is there. They’re all smoking blunts and there’s girls in the back. I was thinking, is it like that or is it like you’re there with Rick Rubin and you guys are there for four days trying to get this thing right? This album making process was the most amazing thing I’ve ever done creatively. It was different to anything we’ve ever done before because we had a few songs written.

42:12 But then we went to LA just before Christmas for like ten days. James knew a guy called John Fields who was a producer that he worked with and he told us about him and he recorded some of our favorite bands like Jimmy World, we loved and a few other things. But he’d also done some pop stuff. He’d done a lot of rock stuff and he’d done some pop stuff so it just kind of felt perfect. So when I met with him, we tried it out for a few days and it was a really good fit.

42:40 It just felt like a cool vibe. And he’s got a studio in the valley so we weren’t in Hollywood. We weren’t like on sunset every night. Which is good. Which was great.

42:51 Why? Because we weren’t there to do that. We were there to make something and go to work. So we rented a house, we airbeaded it, we got a fucking house in the valley which was a five minute drive from the studio and we’d write at night time, we’d go to the studio and record and it just worked for like four or five days in the studio with him. So we decided and we were going to try some other producers and see what happened and see what fit.

43:21 But in the end we just knew that this was the right thing to do. So we kind of, we don’t have a record company. We don’t have anybody funding this but us. So we were just like, right, okay, let’s go. We’re going to fund it ourselves, we’re going to make the album myself, we’re going to go to LA, we’ll airbead it again, we’ll go to the studio every day and we’ll kind of write it as we’re there.

43:43 So we went there for a month, we wrote the whole album and recorded it in under a month. Wow. And it’s the best shit I’ve ever done. When you fund it yourself, I mean does the music change as opposed to if the label was back? I think the one thing that was important was we wanted to make something that we loved and we didn’t want to be told what we should and shouldn’t do.

44:10 So I think it was important that we didn’t have a label involved in the beginning. We had labels interested but we just decided not to go and see them yet. What we wanted to do was make our album ourselves, make something which we were completely happy with and then take it to a label as a finished product before someone starts getting involved and they say, maybe you should work with this guy and do this and then suddenly your single’s picked before you’ve even fucking had a chance to finish the album and you’re promoting something we don’t love.

44:37 So we were like, we do not want to be in that situation. We’ve done that before. We’ve done that before. So we did not want that situation again. Can I hear LA in that album, in this one coming up?

44:49 Massively. It’s a different vibe. I don’t want to say too much about it because I want people to be surprised when they hear it. It’s different. It’s not what you expect a busted album to sound like.

45:04 It’s something which is very organic for us though. It comes from what we’ve been listening to for the last 10 years. When we wrote busted songs, we just discovered Bling-1-8-2 and Sun-41 and all these American pop-punk bands were massively influenced by them. We just wanted to be them. So we just wrote these pop-punk songs and then we kind of did them a bit more pop and they kind of seemed to work in the UK.

45:29 And Avril was massive and it was kind of like just the right time, the right place at the right time for busted. This was something different where we were kind of like, we’ve got all these influences from 10 years of being a part and we’re just going to write songs that we love and then see what happens. I love it. I want to hear it. It’s so exciting. I’ll play you something after this.

45:48 Okay. You mentioned Bling. They’re from San Diego where I’m from. Oh really? They were massive influence when I grew up.

45:54 I think I got them right around the age where they were like, oh, big for me. And they were really kind of revolutionary. And it’s funny when you mention them, Danny mentioned them as well as being kind of big influences for them. But it’s funny because people haven’t heard new busted music for 10 years, right? Yeah, completely.

46:09 So this is like, guys, they’re a little bit older and this is now where you’re coming from, right? Yeah, totally. It’s exactly that. There’s no kind of preconceived ideas what we should be or whether this will work on radio or we haven’t really thought about any of that shit. We just kind of made something which we are massively proud of and we love.

46:29 I think there’s always that worry that whenever you make an album, you think it’s great. You think, oh my God, this is the best thing that they’ve ever done. But previously when I’ve thought that, I’ve secretly thought, oh, I don’t know whether this is right. Is this the right path to go down? I don’t really feel that this time because I feel happy in what we’ve done.

46:49 If it works great, then we have success and it carries on. But I know that we all will be able to put it out with pride and kind of know that we’ve done something which is right for us. I love it. I just want to ask you a little bit more about the music making process. The producer, I always hear stories of how a producer brings this out.

47:08 The classic one I always think of right now is Rick Rubin and the Beastie Boys for the first album, License to Ill. What the hell? How did they encapsulate that? How did it happen? Or Rubin with the Chili Peppers, Blood Sugar Sex Magic or something?

47:22 I’m sure it wasn’t just him, but he was just there at the right time. I’ve heard interviews with Rubin on The Ferris Show where he talks about he’s just there to kind of just mention a thing or try to bring the best out of the artist. What does a good producer do when you’re there in the studio? I think a good producer nurtures what the artist wants. The thing is, we wrote a lot of the songs in the studio, which is something different to us.

47:47 We normally go in there with a finished song and lay down drums. Maybe you’d set drums up. Maybe you’d record four songs worth of drums, which is really boring. I love drums. This is why I love listening to great drummers.

48:00 Listening to four days of drums is shit. Then you just over it. Then you put bass down, then you put guitars down, then you sing something. This was like James was playing this thing called a Juno, which is a really old, late 70s keyboard synthesizer. He fell in love with it. He just got these really cool sounds.

48:22 This one sound would just influence us and we’d start singing something. All the best shit happened. Two of the songs, we just sung the hook in the chorus immediately, and it was the right lyric and the right melody, and that became the song. It was a really amazing experience. I’ve never had something like that.

48:43 Also, John Fields is such an incredible producer that literally we’d start a song in the morning and we’d start writing it. By the evening, we’d have a pretty much finished record. We’d be sitting down going, oh my God, we fucking finished the song today. It’s really cool. Really cool way to work.

49:02 Because he’s mixing it and putting it all together. Yeah, he’s laying down shit like he’s an amazing musician, so he’s putting drum tracks down like a lot of it he’s building as he goes. He’s got an eye for the record. He’s not making a demo. Then we’re going to re-record it. We’re making the record as we write it, which is a really amazing way to work. I always want to do that from now on.

49:22 I always hear that Tupac used to just write his rhymes in the studio. And Dre would be like, what? A few other people had said they worked with him. Even that Jamie Fox interview with Ferris. That was great.

49:36 That was great. He’s like, yeah, I just watched him write stuff out and just throw it out. People were like, okay, this guy’s something special. This guy’s something real, too. I’d watch Kendrick Lamar freestyle now.

49:48 I was up watching YouTube the other night and I watched loads of Kendrick Lamar freestyle raps. He’d go to radio stations and they’d just hold up cue cards with a different subject. He’d just start freestyling and then he’d hold up another cue card and he’d switch it. That is just an amazing brain, like an amazing musical lyrical brain. The whole freestyle phenomenon was crazy.

50:11 I first moved to New York City in 93 and I was working on Wall Street. I was living with a guy who was in a band and he was this white dude who graduated NYU. He actually graduated from finance and he used to make fun of me that I was going to Wall Street. He had a rapper, this black dude in his band, and he was like a white singer and a rapper. He would bring all his friends over and they would smoke up blunts and they would freestyle.

50:33 Sometimes I’d come home and I’d be like, holy shit, and they’d just freestyle and freestyle and freestyle. That’s crazy. Incredible, some of the stuff they were coming up with. Apparently if you want to get signed with Jay-Z or something, he brings you in the office and he’s like, okay, what do you got? Because they just want you to freestyle.

50:49 That’s a lot of pressure. I guess you can tell a lot about someone. Yeah, totally. That’s a single swimmer. What’s this year look like for you?

50:59 How do you drop this music out there? Do you have to wait if people like it? Do you tour or you just already have a plan? We’re kind of formulating that now. We didn’t expect to finish the record yet, so we’re in a really good position.

51:12 We’re kind of meeting labels now. We kind of want to do something slightly different with this. We don’t really want to do the normal record deal kind of thing. We haven’t quite decided what we’re going to do with that. We’ve got a few deals that we’re kind of looking over.

51:28 I don’t know, it’s hard to decide which one is the right move to go with, whether you go with an independent, whether you go with a licensing deal, because you’ve already made the record, or whether you go with a full-fledged major record company and do a major deal and sign away so much and so much. But then you get the power of the label, these big machines. It’s a lot of decisions right now, but I’m confident that we’ll make the right one. Willis you tour?

51:57 Is Charlie the guy who likes to tour? We announced the tour earlier in the year. We sold out in an hour. It was fucking nuts. We didn’t expect it to happen.

52:07 It was like a McBusted morning again. We put the tour on sale and we put 11 dates out, the same as what we do in McBusted. They sold out in under an hour. We were just like, well, this is fucking great. Which is insane because we haven’t been a band for 12 years.

52:25 But I think this is the whole thing. I think what is a negative suddenly becomes a positive. What is negative, what has happened in the past with when Charlie left the band in a very dramatic way, what he said in the press about the band, that’s all, if anything, just made this whole story amazing, him coming back and us, and it just working. It feels like everything that was working against us is something working for us. Do you forgive him?

52:54 Massively. I have nothing, I have no resentment in my mind. I’m stoked. I’m stoked he came back. I still can’t believe it.

53:05 Have you seen the movie Artifact Jared Leto talks about, it’s this documentary about him and his label and how, what is it, 30 seconds tomorrow? 30 seconds tomorrow. 30 seconds tomorrow is how this fight about the contract and how they basically never earned any royalties from any of their music and how they just make money off the touring and just love and hate relationship between artists and labels. It’s an interesting movie, but I’m just curious what your feeling is with big labels and how that works.

53:35 In five years from now, will there be big labels in music? It’s hard to say because when I was in Busted the first time, I had an amazing experience with my label. They were great, but that’s because we did really well. When things are going well, everyone’s fucking great. When things are not going well, that’s when you see differences.

53:54 But I suppose it’s the same with any business. Who wants to champion a sinking ship? For instance, I did a solo record and I wasn’t in the right headspace to be making an album, if I’m honest. But then I saw instant love from a label, then I saw that Peter out. It was the first time I’d seen that because Busted was fucking huge and everyone was amazing and loved it and gave us anything we wanted.

54:20 I was like, oh no, I’m having to fight to get this and not getting the video I want and this kind of thing. It’s a different relationship. But I think the way things are going right now, you have to kind of embrace what is happening in music. For instance, I now have Apple Music on my phone. I have not bought an album in months, probably six months.

54:48 I don’t think I’ve bought an album. And you’re an official not an artist. And I’m a fucking musician. And I haven’t bought music. I listen to everything for free.

54:58 I suddenly realized I’d done it. I was like, wow, I’m now one of those people. I sign up, I pay like $12.99 a month for me and my other devices to have Apple Music on them. And I can listen to anything I want whenever I want and not pay for it. That’s fucked up, isn’t it?

55:16 But is that just the way that things are going? And to fight against it is kind of a losing battle. So you have to kind of like now, for instance, we have our own merch company when we tour. So we don’t have, normally you’d sign with merchandise. You make your merch because you signed to a merch company.

55:35 And the merch company get a supplier who gives them the shirt, they print it for you, they sell it for you. And they’re basically a middle man. So we now cut the middle man out and we now have our own supplier who we deal with who happens to be James’ dad. He gets all our merchandise for us and we just sell it ourselves. So that’s a way for us to make money.

55:56 Because you do not make money from record sales anymore. We are not going to make probably any money off of the next Busted album, which is a very weird prospect. But it gets the band out there and that’s how you sell tour tickets and that’s how you build your brand and all that kind of stuff. So it’s all important. Plus it’s all about new music for me.

56:20 Without new music you just become a band that gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So you need to be having that new music. The good thing is you’re a great performer. And that was the end of the artifact. They just tour and that’s their money.

56:36 And so they just tour and they can continue doing that. And they tour a lot. And then they’re like, nah, I almost think they’re just almost sticking into the label with how much they tour because that’s how they’re making their money. So yeah, it was crazy. But that’s good for you because that’s something you do really well.

56:51 And now maybe you’re right. Maybe you have to concentrate more on the merch and these kind of things. That’s one of the ways to make money because it’s just not, you can’t make money from record sales anymore and you can’t rely on that. So you’ve got to kind of find other avenues and other ways to make money. And which without looking like you’re just out to make money because you’re not.

57:11 We do this because we love it. But we have to make money to be able to keep doing it. So it’s just about finding ways to kind of make it all work. Yeah, it has to be a business to make sense. Yeah, completely.

57:23 Let’s talk about rehab and things in the past. There’s a lot of people listen to this show that are young. They’re in their 20s and in their 30s. I don’t know how I made it out of my 20s alive, to be honest. And I’ve mentioned this and kind of alluded to this in some of my own episodes where I’ve talked about my past and some of the things I learned about with ayahuasca and things like that.

57:45 But I find as a male, like my mid to late 20s were so hard just to keep things together, to not sabotage yourself, to not destroy yourself when you’re also trying to win at life. And it was always hard for me. And quite honestly, to be honest with you Matt, I never thought I would get over it. I thought I would be drinking every day of my life until I died. And yet, I had some paradigm shifts in my 30s where I was just like, you know what, I don’t need to do this anymore.

58:11 I’m going to start training or I’m going to start doing this and this show has helped me so much. And there’s more to life than just me and my own demons in my head. And I just wondered if you think about back to 50608 and some of the things you went through, like you said there was a self-loathing piece, but what were some of the things you learned about yourself that you think might have got you through those times? I never wanted to stop drinking. I never wanted to stop taking drugs.

58:39 It was never part of my, I never thought to myself, maybe I should stop doing this. I was like, how much fucking can I do? And how much can I do for as long as I possibly can? You know, that’s just the way I thought, you know. Because what became very apparent, I think when I first started to notice it, was when the band got silent, we were going to things.

59:03 I was never, ever comfortable in social situations. I could never do this. I could never talk to you about anything. I could never go to a party or anything and not be fucked up because just something within me was too anxious and scared to be in that surrounding. But then I found that if I had seven drinks or a couple of grams, I was kind of okay.

59:29 And suddenly, people liked me. I could get on in this situation. It was kind of, they called it Dutch courage or liquid confidence or whatever. And that definitely was the case for me. But I think even before then, when I was a teenager, like when you first start drinking with your friends, I would always be the one drunk the most.

59:55 I would always be just in me instantly. And I think everyone could see it from a very early age with me. And they would tell me. It’s not like suddenly everyone was like, for instance, a lot of people say, when they said to someone they had a problem with, drink or drugs, they were like, why, I don’t see this. Where are you coming from?

1:00:15 Have you been hiding it? Everyone was like, yeah, fucking, of course you do, Matt. You’re a fucking drunk, alcoholic, drug addict. So it was part of me. It was part of who I was.

1:00:29 I didn’t think I would ever be able to be anything but that. Once I found that I could kind of get on in life by being this drunk person, by being this, because it wasn’t like I was messed up the whole time. Like sometimes, I was just like, I’m not gonna be this drunk person. I’m not gonna be this drunk person. Because it wasn’t like I was messed up the whole time.

1:00:52 Like sometimes, I’d just have a few and I’d be totally cool in situations and it’d be great. But unfortunately then it would end up being quite dark and horrible. But there was, I thrived in that situation. And I kind of, I did well with drink and drugs for a while. And yet you could also perform on stage.

1:01:14 Yeah, yeah, I don’t know how, but like I was, for a number of years, like I think it was when I was 18, 19, it wasn’t that bad. I took it further than anyone else. Like with any alcoholic I think or drug addict, I took it further than anyone else. But it wasn’t affecting my life so much. Like it wasn’t harming me.

1:01:39 And then I think when the band ended, like a couple of people took me aside and kind of went, Matt, I think you need to get a hold of yourself a little bit now because the band’s gone now. And kind of important figures in my life kind of did this to me. And I kind of was like, yeah, I’m fine. It’s fucking fine. And then it became very apparent that it wasn’t fine.

1:02:01 And I think the more time I had to myself, the more I kind of spiraled more and more out of control. Right. And then nothing to be accountable to. And then you don’t have to do this or the guys. Yeah, yeah, completely.

1:02:15 But also for a long period of time, it was completely acceptable for me to be drunk at 12 PM. Like it was completely fine because I was in a band and it’s just cool. Like if you turn up to a photo shoot at fucking 9 o’clock and you’re drinking at 11, that’s kind of like, yeah, you know, cool. Isn’t that weird because you’ve kind of become the guy that people expect you to be, which is the I drink all day kind of rockstar. Yeah, in a way.

1:02:39 But I love that people were cool with that because it allowed me to be who I wanted to be. And I loved drinking. I loved being fun. I loved people enjoying me being around. And then, for instance, I remember one night I went out with one of my very close friends from who I grew up with, a guy called Ed, and we went out to watch a band.

1:03:05 We went out to watch The Prodigy. And I took way too much and I drank too much and I was a fucking dick. And I was a real liability. But I came home and my wife now was my girlfriend at the time and she woke me up. And the next morning I knew I’d fucked up.

1:03:23 I could kind of sense that when I finally came downstairs. I was like, oh, go on. I’ll fuck up here. And she said to me that he said to her he was ashamed of me. He was let down and ashamed of me.

1:03:40 And that really fucking hit me. Suddenly I wasn’t the guy that everyone wanted to invite to parties. Suddenly I found out I wasn’t being invited to anything. I wasn’t the guy that anyone wanted around. And they only knew a third of what I was getting up to.

1:03:56 There were two thirds I was keeping fucking from everybody which was eating me alive. If they knew that, they’d fucking hate me even more. Then the self-loathing thing happens and then I just drunk to get away from feeling anything. And then it just got worse and worse and worse until I eventually, I think just before my solo record came out. This happened in the space of a year.

1:04:23 I deteriorated a lot. And then I checked into rehab for the first time and went to the Priory for two weeks. You’re supposed to stay for a month. I just went, oh, I’ll just do two weeks. But literally I realized I was only really doing it to shut people up.

1:04:39 To go, okay, all Matt’s dealing with it. Okay, great, it’ll be fine. And then I can come out and drink parties or something and it’ll be fine. So that’s obviously not the right mentality to go into any kind of recovery. Is there, can you learn stuff there at the Priory?

1:04:55 Or does rehab a place you can help yourself or is it really all your own mindset? I think unless you’re ready to accept who you are, unless you’re ready to accept that you need to change, then it’s impossible to be force fed anything. I mean, I sat down in therapy classes and I lied. I fucking said what I thought people wanted me to hear. And then I left that and I kept going to meetings even though I was drinking.

1:05:22 I kind of kept this facade up for quite a while. And then I ended up having to check into rehab again and then again. But I still didn’t want it. I still wasn’t there for me. I was just there because everyone was fucking telling me to.

1:05:37 And I was like, okay, cool. I’ll sort myself out. And it just got to a point where I think one day I knew I was bad because I woke up and I had to drink. It got to that point where I kind of woke up and I had to drink. So I had a stash in my house and I kind of flustered chain as I opened the can.

1:06:06 So no one would hear me. And I realized I’ve been doing that for a long time. I was like, fuck, this is who I am now. And it didn’t sit well with me. But still, it didn’t stop me.

1:06:23 And I had multiple chances to stop. Multiple people would give me multiple sit-downs and talks and chances. And lots of people sat me down in various different times in my life and kind of said, this is not fucking working for you, Matt. But I did not care. I don’t know if I at the time could imagine a life without that in it.

1:06:49 That was me. That was who I was. And I was like, what would I do? How would I live? How would I talk to somebody?

1:06:59 How would I go to the shops? How would I ever do my job? How would I ever do anything like this? Even though at that point I didn’t even have a fucking job because I was unemployable. So it was a real moment.

1:07:11 And then me and Emma were going to get married. She’s still staying with you. She’s still up with me, man, for the whole fucking thing. And through countless times of me telling her I’ll sort myself out. But we were going to get married.

1:07:30 And I knew she wasn’t going to do it. I had something in my head. I was like, I don’t think she’s going to fucking do this. And it hit me hard. And I was like, right, I need to change.

1:07:43 Something needs to happen. And I went to my drug counselor who I’ve been with for a couple of years. And he decided that it wasn’t good for me to go to any of these kind of places. There was quite a hardcore place on the south coast. It was not very posh, not very glitzy.

1:08:04 For instance, people suddenly from going to posh places where you sit with people, bankers and so on, who are all sitting around talking about drinking drugs. That’s what the priorities like. You’re sitting with people who literally are there because otherwise they go to jail. And are there who literally have just come out of jail. And they have to go to rehab because they’ve gone smack when they’re in prison.

1:08:27 So I was suddenly like, fuck, this is, I’m now one of these people. It’s a different energy in the room. It’s a much different energy in the room. It’s like a difference in the states between an AA meeting and an NA meeting, which is Alcoholic Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. I remember when I was in New York, I went to one of my, I saw someone, he’s like, go to an AA meeting.

1:08:46 He’s like, I would send you to an NA meeting. He’s like, but you couldn’t handle it because these are people that have, like the drugs have almost ruined their lives. He’s like, so he wins. Yeah, completely. Like, the thing is I needed to be there.

1:09:00 You know, I needed to hear this shit. I needed to know that I was, and I think what I did is when they were in AA, they always say, look for the similarities, not the differences. You know, when you’re in a meeting, when you’re, when you listen to someone talk, it was look for the similarities, not the differences. I spent the whole time looking at the differences. I was like, I’m not like any of these fucking people, you know?

1:09:22 And like, in any kind of recovery, I checked out. I wasn’t like any, I wasn’t as bad as this. And I was sitting in a room full of people whose lives are fucking destroyed by this shit, and I was seeing so many similarities. You know, I was like, oh, I’m here. You know, this is me.

1:09:42 This is what I am. And I really put my head down. I really took in everything I could from that whole center, and it was amazing. It was basically the Providence Center, and I advise anybody who’s got problems to check that place out like it’s an incredible place, and the people there really do an incredible job. And the Providence Project, sorry.

1:10:03 So then I left there, and I relapsed, you know? And I didn’t want to this time, you know? Like, which was different, because every time I left before, I couldn’t fucking wait to relapse. You know, I was in there. Counting the days.

1:10:22 Counting my days until I could go and get fucked up again. And this time I didn’t want to, but I fucking did it, you know? And I woke up the next morning going, fuck! Frustrating. You know, frustrating.

1:10:32 But then I was back in the cycle again, and it wasn’t like, oh, no, you know, I’m back in the cycle again. Like, I knew what I was doing this time. I could see myself doing it. Something had changed. Like, it wasn’t, I couldn’t lie to myself anymore.

1:10:45 I was seeing myself for exactly who I was. How old are you at this point? I am, this was six years ago. So I’m 32 now, so I was like 27. Okay.

1:10:58 26, 27. Yeah, yeah. So, but I’m married. Yeah. You know, Emma married me.

1:11:04 Fucking thank God. You know, and then we had a baby. You know, we had Isabel. And I remember it was my wife’s birthday, and I was going to meet them in Birmingham. But I had to do a TV appearance first, and I had to go and be on this chat show thing.

1:11:26 So I turned up at the chat show, and I’ve been sober for a couple of weeks. You know, I was kind of doing okay. I was sober for a couple of weeks. I was kind of trying in them, and trying to be, trying to get the whole sobriety thing. You know, so I was kind of like radical.

1:11:39 So I turn up there, and it’s the last episode of this chat show. And so they’ve got champagne in the dressing room, and they put a glass in front of me, and literally I didn’t even fucking think twice. I picked it up and I nailed it. And then I was off. But plus, I had no worries, because I didn’t have to go home to anybody.

1:11:58 They were in Birmingham. I was in London. I was like, so over the next four hours, I scored drugs. I fucking went crazy. I ended up in awful places.

1:12:08 And then I turned up in Birmingham about 5 a.m. I had to get a taxi from London, because there was trains that stopped. So I got a taxi, and I was a fucking mess when I turned up. And then the next morning, I knew that it was the end. I knew that it was kind of…

1:12:31 I just knew that I had no more chances. I had nowhere else to go with this. It was either now or never. Or I have to walk away and lose everything. Because Emma said something to you?

1:12:48 Emma said something to me, but also I knew I’d run out of chances. And also her family are just the most incredible people in the world. And they’d seen me destroy myself, and they just couldn’t do it anymore. I don’t think they could see their daughter go through it anymore. And now I had a daughter, and I was still doing it.

1:13:09 And I kind of left the house, and I walked down the street, and I walked to the pub, and I was walking to the pub to get fucked. And then I realized that one, I had no money. I’d lost my fucking wallet, and I don’t know how I paid for the cab. I was just like, fuck, I’ve got no cash. I had like 70p in my pocket, and I found like I still had like half a gram of cocaine in my pocket.

1:13:35 So I was like, fuck. And I just… I don’t know… I just chucked in the bin. First thing I did, I just chucked it straight in the bin.

1:13:44 And I went and bought a LucasAid, and I thought that was a healthy thing to think. I walked in the shop, and I bought this LucasAid, and I opened it, and I was like, that’s it. I said, you know, I need to do something about this. I’m not going to do that again. And I said, I’m not going to drink today.

1:14:06 And this is something which had been fucking force fed to me through AA and CA. You’re not going to drink. You’re not going to do drugs today, just today. Just get to bed, and just do that one day, and then you’ve achieved. And the next morning, say, I’m not going to drink today.

1:14:21 And then when you get to bed, you can say, thank fucking… Thank fuck for not drinking today. You know, and I did that, and I did that every day. And then I got a week. And there was points in my life when it was impossible for me to get four hours.

1:14:36 You know, so I was so stoked with the week. And then I got a month, and then I kept going. And I didn’t do AA, I didn’t do the meetings, I didn’t do anything like that. I just had a different reason to be doing it. And every time, it’s going to sound corny and cheesy, but every time I looked at my family, I just knew that I couldn’t do that anymore.

1:14:58 You know, I kind of had to step up, and something had changed. But I was still a mess. For a good two years, I was still, in my head, I was still a fucking mess. You know, and then… You might stop consuming, but you’re still emotional.

1:15:14 I’m still that guy. It’s rock bottom, like you call it rock bottom, and you’re down there. You don’t have much left on a thread. Do you think everyone has to hit that rock bottom, and do you think anyone can help with that, or is that a process? I think everyone has their own rock bottom.

1:15:28 This is the thing, like you hear a lot, oh, it’s not got that bad for you. Like, why are you stopping drinking? Like, I hear people say that to people who are stopping drinking. Yeah, but it wasn’t really that bad. Like, for instance, a friend of mine doesn’t drink, because he acted like a dick a few times when he drunk.

1:15:44 He’s just like, I don’t like drinking. I’m not going to drink anymore. People are like, oh, but you’re fun. Why are you going to stop drinking? I’m like, dude, like, everyone has their own fucking rock bottom.

1:15:53 Like, who are you to say, you don’t have to be on the streets, you know, like, you don’t have to be that guy to know that it’s enough is enough, you know. And I definitely knew enough is enough, and it’s been the most important thing I’ve ever done in my entire life. Do you think people cut you extra slack because you’re famous, and so it takes you longer to get to rock bottom? Because say you had never made it with busted. You wouldn’t have been forgiven as much as you were maybe.

1:16:24 And do you ever think it would have happened sooner? It’s a strange question, but… It’s a strange question. I’ve never really thought about that. I always get asked, do you think it happened to you because you were famous?

1:16:36 Or do you think it happened to you because you were in a band? I’m like, no, I think it would happen to me if I worked in the fucking… in Marks & Spencer’s. It would happen to me if I did anything. Oh, that was just me, and that was the way I dealt with being me and not really liking who I was.

1:16:50 You know, so… But do I think I was given more chance? Yeah, probably was. Yeah, I think it would have come to a head a lot sooner, have I not? You know, I’ve had success, and people were more forgiving.

1:17:03 Yeah. I see pictures of me when I was like 10 years old. And I know your son’s ace is four, and I’ve got a son on the way. And I see, like, I struggled with drinks and drugs in my 20s, and I was just like, what? If I look back now, I was just like, Brian, you could have skipped 10 years of your life of just beating your head against the wall for no reason, really.

1:17:24 And I’m just always thinking about, like, my son or your son. And you see them when they’re young, and they’re cool, they’re playing, and they’re playing kids, but at some point they might come to their own journeys in their 20s where they’re going to have to, as humans, deal with this thing that’s called substances. And I think they’re there for many reasons. But do you ever think about what you’re going to do or a conversation you’re going to have with your son or your daughter?

1:17:47 And are you worried, like, are they like me? Do they have the Willis gene where they’re just going to want to get really fucked up? Yeah. And how do you, yeah, do you ever think about that? Because I do.

1:17:57 I think about it all the fucking time. All the time. And I look for those genes. Like, I look for them with sugar and things. I’m like, oh, my god.

1:18:05 Like, is this the beginning of what, you know, like, you know, it always comes to my head. And the thing is, alcohol is not part of my family. You know, like, it’s not in my kids’ lives. You know, like, it’s not, which I don’t know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing. I don’t know yet.

1:18:21 My parents didn’t drink. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. But it still happened to you. You know, so I don’t know.

1:18:26 Like, so I’m, and I’m not going to be, I’m not going to say you shouldn’t drink. You shouldn’t fucking do drugs. You know, I’m not going to be that guy. I want them to find out for themselves, you know, but I can be, I can be a positive influence on them and show them that there is negatives to this shit and that it’s not all fun and that it can be taken too far. You know, I kind of want to install that in them, you know, but I don’t, I don’t know.

1:18:55 I think sometimes maybe you’re, if it’s going to happen to you, it’s going to happen to you, which is the scariest fucking thing in the world, you know, because, because it shouldn’t, you know, but yeah, it’s terrifying. I think about it all the time. I know. The thing is, you like, and my dad watched me do it. And again, he probably knew, you know, a tenth of it.

1:19:14 And I’m sure, and he still knew, like everybody knows that you’re doing some bad shit. But at the same time, he had to let me go through it. And we’ll probably have to let our kids go through it. And the more you try to help them or pry, you know, probably make it worse. Yeah, it’s probably making it worse, yeah.

1:19:27 Talk to me about fitness. You, you train a lot. I now train a lot. It’s kind of a nice segue from substance abuse. Yeah, because, you know, you can do it regularly.

1:19:40 It clears out a lot of demons and emotions. Talk to me about, yeah, your fitness. When did you get into it? Was it around the same time as the segue? Yeah, massively.

1:19:50 Well, do you know what? It was when my head started to sort itself out. Like I said, like, I’ve been sober six years now. About four years ago. Does that mean, like, you don’t touch it?

1:19:59 You don’t look at it? I don’t do anything. I don’t take anything mind-auterasing. Okay. You know, like, well, I haven’t touched anything, you know, like so far.

1:20:10 Okay. You know, touch wood. Congrats. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like, I think about four years ago, I lived with a guy called Rob Solley, who’s a trainer.

1:20:22 Yeah. And he was a fighter. He was an MMA fighter. And he was in a punk band called Johnny Panic. Like, he lived with me for years and years and years.

1:20:30 Like, he saw me on my fucking worst and my fucking best. You know, like, he’s one of my true best friends. You know, but he was always into fitness. You know, like, he was in, he was, like I said, he was a fighter, you know. So, all the way through the band, like, he’d be in a punk band and play in a fucking apartment.

1:20:47 And then the next day, be in the gym sparring, you know. Like, he was, he never stopped. Like, he had, like, pull up bar in my house. Like, it was so a different world to me. I was so not interested in this.

1:20:58 Like, I couldn’t even do a press-up. You know, I wouldn’t even want it to. You know, I think he made me once when I was drunk and I couldn’t do it. And, you know, I fucking, you know, I felt really embarrassed. But, you know, so about four years ago, like, we started to, I started to think maybe I should get in shape because, like, when I was drinking, I got really heavy.

1:21:17 I got really big. I put on loads of weight. I looked fucking terrible. And then when I got sober, I never really started to look any better. You know, like I was saying, I was like, I’m two years down the line.

1:21:27 I still look like a fat prick. I was like, something’s fucking wrong here. You know, so I was like, oh, right. Maybe because I’m eating fucking KFC and fucking, you know, drinking Lucas eggs, it’s healthy. You know, so I started to, like, something changed.

1:21:40 And I started to, I was watching the UFC with Rob and we were watching it and, like, this guy, Joe Rogan, was, you know, the commentator. So Rob said he has a podcast, you know, like, so we started to listen to that. So maybe not four years ago. It’s maybe just after that. But, yeah, I suddenly started to listen to him.

1:22:01 I suddenly, I bought a kettlebell, you know, like I joined a gym down the road, like, you know, down the road from my house and I go there and I do, like, spin class or something. And then I tried bikram yoga and then I tried something else. And then I went to the, and then I went to another gym. And then I found, I listened to something about Rob Wolfe and I found the paleo solution. And I read that book and something happened.

1:22:27 Like, I think that was the only nutritional book I’ve read from front to back without being bored. You know, like, it was just an amazing book to read and I found it fascinating. Then I turned into a fucking paleo dickhead and, like, was a fucking, like, was… Is that worse than a vegan dickhead? It’s equal. It’s equal.

1:22:49 Like, I was like, you shouldn’t eat that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, talking about the fucking agricultural revolution to people. No one gave a shit, you know, but, um, I became that guy for a little while. You’re not him anymore. I’m not him anymore.

1:23:03 But you’re still paleo-ish. Paleo-ish, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was an important book. Like, I took that on board, you know, and then, like I said, I was listening to Joe Rogan and I became… And I heard Tate Fletcher talk about bulletproof coffee.

1:23:20 So I literally went online and I watched this shit about bulletproof coffee. I was like, right, this is the answer to all my fucking… Perhaps this is everything I need, right? I’m just going to drink bulletproof coffee because this is what’s going to make me superhuman. So I ordered it from online and I had to ship it from America.

1:23:38 So I bought so much of it. Like, I bought like 300 pounds worth of coffee and MCT or stuff like that. And I got it sent because I had to warrant the 70 pound shipping fee. So I was like, right, okay. So me and my friend, we had some bulletproof coffee, you know, and I started drinking that.

1:23:55 The first time I had it, I felt gross. Like, I think I overdid it. I like it too much. I remember I had too much of everything. Like, I just did the two tablespoons of butter and the two tablespoons of MCT in a large cup of coffee, you know, and I spun it up.

1:24:11 The first time I fucking felt horrendous sweating. Like, I was like, what’s going on? You know, and I didn’t read that you’re supposed to start small and build yourself up. I just thought, oh, fuck, I’ll go all in. I don’t know, typical me.

1:24:22 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But something stuck with me for that. After the second time, I realized that I’d fucked up, so I went a bit smaller, and I felt great. And for the first time, I started to feel, I noticed that it wasn’t just bulletproof coffee, but the whole kind of lifestyle change.

1:24:43 I started to feel good, and I started to feel different, and my mind worked, and I didn’t feel so like I couldn’t think straight, and I couldn’t, you know, like, I just felt better and a more optimal human, you know, so. And if you’ve been on that drinking and drugs tip for many, many years, your brain gets so fogged up where you’re like, you can kind of remember what it was like to not be able to think well and feel good. Yeah, yeah, totally, dude, totally.

1:25:09 Like, I never knew you could feel good, if I’m honest. Like, I never knew what that felt like. I thought I felt all right until suddenly I did feel good. I was like, wow, this is fucking amazing. You know, like, so, yeah, then I just, I got really into it.

1:25:26 I read loads of nutritional shit. Like, I’m no saint. I kind of, you know, like, you know, I go off the rails every now and again, but so does everybody, you know, but. What’s your off the rails food? Yeah, like, something like that.

1:25:39 Like, the thing is, I recently got hypnotized for sugar, which was a really interesting experience because, like, I have a bad relationship with sugar. Like, to be honest, I have a really bad relationship with food. Like, it’s something which is in me, and I’m trying to deal with it. Is it similar to the drugs, like, clothing, food? I think so.

1:25:58 I think so. It’s another thing. Like, yeah, like, I would just search it out, and it would give me instant ease and comfort, you know, and I would just search that shit, and it was becoming more and more of a cycle, you know, and then, like, I’d be, you know, I’d be eating bad, and then I’d be fasting for 24 hours because I’d eaten bad and feeling like shit, and, you know, not really following any diet plan, and kind of, you know, I was just, it wasn’t really working, you know, but, and I still have that a little bit.

1:26:28 Like, I still don’t have a very good relationship with food. Like, for instance, like, I can’t eat those Quest bars. Have you had a Quest bar? No. They’re amazing. Really?

1:26:40 They’re incredible. They’re a protein bar. Like, 21 grams of protein, I shouldn’t be advertising anything, but they’re incredible. But they’re, like, fucking crap to me. Okay.

1:26:46 Like, they’re incredible, but I think they’re healthy, so I eat five of them. But they’re not. Because a lot of those have tons of sugar in them. Yeah, well, these don’t have sugar. They’re kind of, they’re kind of sweetened with other things, but it’s, like, I don’t have that.

1:26:58 I just haven’t, I have an addict’s brain, you know, like, anything, anything I can, anything I can take too far, I will take too far. Drives my wife fucking mad. She also loves you for it. Oh, she loves you for it, and my friends do too. Like, they know it about me.

1:27:12 Like, but any, if there’s anything you can, like, go overboard on. I will 100% become obsessed with it and become, and go overboard with it. Including training, and your cardio, and everything. Yeah, well, recently I’ve discovered cardio. So cardio was another thing that, um…

1:27:26 You’ve seen some of your Twitter feeds, and… Yeah, like, um… You use hour-long sessions and things like that. Man, dude, I love it. Like, it’s, um, it’s a new thing for me.

1:27:32 Like, um, like, I never really liked cardio. And also, because I’ve read the whole kind of Paleo thing, and kind of, um, and gotten into CrossFit, and kind of those kind of things, I kind of, um, I heard that, you know, cardio was bad. You know, like, shouldn’t do cardio. It’s just lift weights, you know, fast. You know, so, um, you know, so I was like, um, uh, I never did any cardio.

1:27:49 And the thing is, like, I’ve… At times in my… in training, I’ve got strong. At times in my training, I’ve got big. But I’ve never been lean.

1:27:59 And that bothers me. You know, so I’m like, right, and now I’ve set myself a fucking target. I’m gonna be lean. So I’ve got a new… a new coach.

1:28:07 Um, he’s amazing. And he’s, um, he’s fucking lean. And he gets people really lean. So, like, I’m doing what he says, and I’m… But it’s a lot of cardio, and I love it.

1:28:16 I love the feeling of cardio. Like, it’s a new buzz for me. And, um, I know it’s a little bit of my addict brain fucking playing up. But at the moment, I’m enjoying it. It’s great. I mean, you can control it, and you know your brain needs that.

1:28:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can do it in a positive way. Yeah, completely, yeah. It doesn’t have you coming home at 5 a.m. Exactly. It’s not wrecking my life.

1:28:34 It’s not, um… The only thing is, um, is my alarm sometimes wakes up my wife. Because I try, I have to get my workout in before I go to work. Okay. So, um, so, uh, you know, that’s the only downside.

1:28:45 And your relationship with food, how do you think that’ll change? You had hypnotized for sugar. I mean, hypnotized for sugar, which is kind of working. Okay. Did Darren Brown do that? He lives around the corner.

1:28:53 Oh, really? No, no, he didn’t do that. No, no, I went to see a guy, um, in, uh, in the city. Just went to see a guy I just googled. Okay.

1:29:01 I just googled, like, um, like, hypnotherapy, um, for sugar addiction. Did it work? I don’t know. Okay. But he did, he did. Did you go under?

1:29:08 Um, yeah, I think so. Because like, um, the first time I was very aware and, um, and it, um, it was like half an hour and I kind of felt like it was half an hour. Like I was talking to me like this. And then the second time, um, we did an hour and it felt like 20 minutes, you know, so like something happened there. I was like something, you know, which I thought I kind of, um, I’m very cynical.

1:29:29 I don’t believe a lot of shit. Like I think it’s all bullshit. But then, um, but then I’m willing to try bullshit, you know, if it works, you know, so, um, I went to a Darren Brown show that, you know, the hypnotist, you know, in London a couple months ago and like, I just saw him hypnotize this audience. And at one point he was like, um, he was getting Twitter involved in the audience. We were tweeting things out and it was like an hour in the show and he was like, okay, stand up and get on your phone.

1:29:51 And it was weird, like 40 people stood up and everyone else was sitting down and they were sitting there on their phones in the middle of a well lit theater. And I looked at him, my girl, and I was like, they’re hypnotized, they’re hypnotized. And I almost stood up and I was like, I’m probably partially hypnotized. And he just got us all under this power suggestion. I wasn’t knocked out. I wasn’t jumping around like a chicken.

1:30:09 There’s something in that shit. I was doing things that he told you to do in a British situation, staying up in the middle of the theater and staying standard is not a normal thing to do. And you know, he was doing it. And he took it further and further. So it was scary.

1:30:21 Yeah, I’ve seen him live a couple of times. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, he’s got some great things going on. Um, what’s it like to be married to someone who’s also in the media?

1:30:29 Is that a good thing because you both know kind of the game or is it tricky sometimes because you’re both in the public eye, you know, people snapping pictures of you when they shouldn’t like that? Like, I think I like the fact that we both do a job in the public eye. You know, I think what’s happened to Emma recently is, um, is it’s, um, it’s got more extreme for her. You know, like she’s, um, she’s, uh, she’s had to get used to being very well known, you know, which is, um, which is, um, different.

1:31:01 The thing is, um, like it doesn’t really bother us because I kind of feel like, um, that’s our job and then we come home. Do you know what I mean? Like, um, and then we come home and we’re a completely normal family. Like, there’s nothing, there’s nothing showbiz about our life whatsoever. Like, we’re very, we’re very normal.

1:31:16 We don’t really do anything kind of celebrity or showbiz like, you know, but then there is. I don’t know. Like, I don’t really know, but like we don’t have it that isn’t really involved in our life. We just have our job and our, and our home life, which is, you know, is that, um, which is obviously the most important thing in our world. You know, so it’s, um, it’s different, you know, but I think it became, became weird when we had kids and, um, like, for instance, like, um, like my daughter kind of, um, uh, asked me if I was famous, like recently.

1:31:49 I think we didn’t know how to answer that. You know, I, so I said, no. Um, I don’t really know what, what I didn’t know what to say to that, you know, and like, she asked me and we were kind of like, um, we’re like, no, I said the queen is famous. You know, the queen is famous. Like, yeah, like she’s famous.

1:32:05 Like, like Taylor Swift, you know, like she loves Taylor Swift. So I was like, Taylor Swift is famous. Daddy just does a job where certain people like his music and know who he is. And mommy just talks on TV and people know, like, who watch her show know who she, she is, you know. So it was, um, we kind of underplayed it.

1:32:22 I didn’t really know what was the right decision to make there. Like I’m still, I think with every parent, you’re kind of learning on your feet on you and you’re like, you don’t really know what to say. But, um, but that shocked me. Like, and that was because one of her friends at school had said, you know, your mommy and daddy are famous, you know, like, um, and so that makes you famous. And she, and she was like, she was like, so am I famous?

1:32:42 And I was like, no. No, no, no, no, no. You have to earn this. My dad was in the newspaper, apparently. And I was, I was like, it doesn’t matter, you know, just because, you know, like, that doesn’t matter.

1:32:53 You know, like, I’m trying to kind of get across to her that that’s so fucking unimportant. You know, like fame is so, is so, it’s such a weird monster. Like it’s, um, it’s something which doesn’t appeal to me. You know, like it’s, um, and neither does it to Emma. You know, we love working.

1:33:13 We love, we love, we love doing our jobs. We love doing anything that makes us creatively happy, but we never sought out to be famous. You know, it’s just something which is a byproduct of what we do. And it’s something which we’re always adjusting to, you know, and, and it’s, um, and also I think in the world we live in right now, it’s become such a big fucking deal being famous. You know what I mean?

1:33:35 Like, especially with Instagram and shit like that, like there’s these, and like, it’s just such a big thing. You know, like, um, and it shouldn’t be like, especially with kids, like I see like, um, like, uh, like on Twitter, for instance, like I’ll get messages from people and I’ll just occasionally click on their profile. Maybe some young girl, you know, like, or whatever. He’s got like, um, you know, a YouTube channel or something, you know, talking about like problems with boys or something, you know, like, but all the pictures will be like, you know, like, and like pushing their boobs up and stuff.

1:34:06 And like, this is because of what other people you see in the media doing this. So you feel like you have to be this, which is fucking wrong. You should just be a kid, you know, and just not have to worry about that shit or that shouldn’t really appeal to you. You know, yeah, the whole concept of being internet famous. Yeah, it’s kind of a weird new thing, right?

1:34:24 Like, I don’t really know how I feel about it, you know, did you ever move to LA? Yeah. Yeah, probably would like, um, I liked it there. I really liked it there. I think as I’d miss Britain a lot.

1:34:38 For instance, I recently moved out of London, like about a year ago. I could always be lived in, like, in around London since busted started. And I grew up in, I was born in Tooting, you know, so I’ve kind of always been in London. And I recently moved out and I now love living out of London. Really? I love it. I love a lot. I live in the countryside, like a lookout.

1:35:02 I see fucking fields and like farmers and shit. Like, it’s just such a weird mindset for me. You know, like, like, it’s really strange, but I love it, you know, but then I come into London and I’m just reminded of how much of an amazing, incredible place this is, you know. And so, um, but then I go to LA and I kind of feel like, um, I don’t know. I kind of feel like anything’s kind of possible there.

1:35:31 You know, that cliche thing that, you know, like you, like people will, you know, you can do whatever you want there, you know, and people will give you a chance at it. You know, whereas here, for instance, like, I kind of feel like, um, I kind of feel like, for me, like acting, like people will not necessarily give me a chance with that shit because they’re like, I’ll know you’re the guy from the band. You know, you’re a pop band. You can’t do that. Why? Why can’t I do that? Because I’m in a band, you know, that’s bullshit.

1:36:00 You know, like, um, you know, so it’s, um, but there, I think they encourage that shit. They’re like, right. Cool. You want to do that? Awesome.

1:36:06 You know, that happens to be another 4 million people doing exactly the same thing as you there, which is a bit more tough, you know, but it’s, um, it’s just, um, I love the energy in LA. I think it’s, I think it’s a great place. Yeah, it’s weird because like everyone goes there to be famous, but it’s the media capital of the world and they produce so much media there that if you want to do that, like that is the place to go do it. Yeah. Every other city is really a parallel comparison to where LA is all about.

1:36:32 Well, then I know a few actors, like quite successful actors who dip in and out. They kind of go there, do jobs, like, um, you know, but like still stay at home and have a very British life, you know, so it’s, um, it’s, uh, but it intrigues me. You know, I don’t think I ever will move there, but I could quite happily live there. Okay. You’re doing movies this year.

1:36:50 Yes. How do you, how does that, how does that work? Your acting career? Yeah. How, how does, how does that work?

1:36:57 How, do you know, a very, very hard, it’s very hard. You know, like, um, the thing is, luckily I kind of, um, we made a movie called allies about two years ago. Um, uh, with a guy called Dominic Burns director and he kind of, um, uh, he, he cast me like he said, um, I self taped the whole thing. Like, um, I don’t expect people to give me jobs or to see me. You know, I kind of do everything I possibly can to get in ruins.

1:37:21 Cool. You know, it’s, um, it’s, um, uh, in fact, I think in, in Britain, it’s more of a, it’s more of a negative coming from my background than it is a positive, you know, so it’s, um, uh, so I self taped, saw me, I auditioned, um, I got the role and, um, and we kind of built up a great relationship and then, and he’s a, uh, fantastic, um, amazingly creative man. And we’re making, he’s making two more movies, um, with me and, um, so we’re going to be doing those.

1:37:51 Um, hopefully they will fall in into place with busted, you know, it’s kind of, um, busted is going to take up most of this year, but then at the end of the year, I’ll be making one and then probably January of next year, we’ll make the other one. Okay. All right. Very exciting. Um, I think in Britain, like it’s classically trained stage actors that usually in the past have gotten the nod to film.

1:38:12 So I’m guessing that’s why you get the static. Whereas in LA, they just want talent. They want people that are going to make it happen. Is that an assumption that’s right? Yeah, I think I, I, I kind of know what you’re saying. Um, I went to, I went to theater school, which is like, um, so, so when I was, when I was 14, like I’ve been in a normal fucking shit school my whole life, never gave a fuck about school, you know, like, um, from, you know, people sending drugs and having fights in the corridor.

1:38:41 So suddenly at 14, I met this guy, he wrote a musical, right? And like, um, like I sang in this talent competition and he was looking for people to sing for his musical that weren’t classically trained singers. So he was like, do you want to sing this part? So I said, yeah, you know, it was cool. I got to go to a recording studio. I was like, it’s fucking awesome. So I went and sang this thing.

1:39:01 He worked at Sylvia Young theater school, which is like a big theater school here. And so he played the recording to Sylvia Young. She invited me down to audition for the school. It’s all happened in a matter of weeks. You know, before I knew it, I got a place in this fucking like amazing theater school in London. And, um, so I left my school, you know, where that happens in the school to go into a school where people are doing pirouettes and fucking tap dancing in the corridors.

1:39:28 It was a very fucking weird time, but, um, but amazing. And I learned so much there and I had this incredible experience, but, um, but that even that is a, is a, I don’t know. Some people see that as a negative. I mean, like in, in, in Britain, like it’s, um, because now you’re a stage school brat, you know, now you’re one of these kind of like, um, like, I don’t know what you’d have in America. The same thing. Like, um, they’d see it as, I don’t know.

1:39:53 I want to know those fucking girls who get stressed up and does those fashion things. Okay. Oh, it’s kind of like the same kind of perception of the kids, like they’re kind of a stage school bratish kids, you know, so it’s kind of, um, whereas I had the most amazing experience of that school. And I learned so much though, because we did normal lessons Monday to Wednesday. Then on Thursday and Friday we do singing, acting, dancing, you know, all kinds of shit that I knew nothing about. But in two years I learned immense things, you know, it’s incredible.

1:40:23 And that’s kind of why we have the new you are today. Yeah, my siblings totally like, uh, it was, my life was never going in that direction, you know, before that happened. And then suddenly that happened. And then, and so I always wanted to do that. And I went there as an actor, you know, I kind of sung a little bit.

1:40:37 But I went there because I wanted to be, you know, as soon as I got there, I fell in love with acting. I kind of loved it. And I kind of got so much from it, you know, that I kind of, I’ve always wanted to do it. Did you meet Amy Winehouse there? Yes, she was in my class.

1:40:53 Okay. They say she fancied you. Well, no, I mean, she was my friend. She was really, you know, a really good friend of mine. I watched the documentary with her. Did you watch it?

1:41:02 I tell her. I was hard for me to watch. And I can imagine if you knew her, it was. And I just had this feeling at the end. And I’ve asked a couple of guests about her, one of them’s imaging heap, you know, she’s a musician here. And I just felt like when I watched the end of that documentary, I felt like, I felt like, I don’t know, we were all responsible for that in a little bit, because of the fame and everything that was pushed on her. And she was trying to deal with all these situations and trying to deal with substance issues that you had, I had.

1:41:29 And at the same time, she’s living in on this crazy public stage. And I see that when I see the Kurt Cobain movie as well. I feel like, man, are we all responsible a bit by the way we push people up as stars. But I just wonder what your thoughts were on Amy and her story. I never really talked about Amy like I’m kind of, it’s hard for me to say because I knew her at school and she was this amazingly different girl.

1:42:01 Like she’s just different than everybody else. Like she was just, she was just, she was called in her own completely unique way. Like she didn’t fit in with anybody else. She was on her own. She’s just a completely amazing girl. And then, and then we left school, I didn’t see her and then suddenly I saw her play a show before her first album came out.

1:42:22 Because she was assigned to Island Records and we were assigned to Island Records. Someone told me, let’s go call Amy Winehouse playing. I was like, fuck, I would score the girl call Amy Winehouse. So we went to this little Tony cloud and I saw her play. So we got to hang out again and kind of became friends again. So I kind of, you know, and I was a mess as well.

1:42:37 You know, so it was kind of, we were, you know, we got on great, you know, so it was, you know, but it’s, it’s hard to say who’s responsible for things like that because, and also when I first started hanging out with her, she did no class A’s. She’s, that was her thing. No class A’s. Okay. Smoke weed, right? You know, smoke weed and drunk wine. You know, like when to watch bands in Camden, you know, she was like, I’m super chilled fucking thing.

1:43:05 I just saw a different thing happened to her, you know, but I still hung out with her quite a few times and we’d get fucked up together. And, you know, it was kind of, she’s, she was, I don’t know, she’s a, she was a beautifully tragic person. You know, like, I’m just, just incredible. You know, and it’s really, it’s really just sad. Was that always going to be a tragedy, do you think? With her?

1:43:35 I don’t know. You know, who knows? You know, I don’t, I don’t know. Like, it was a fucking shock when I, when, because the girl she lived with rung weed to tell me what happened and I turned on the news and saw it. You know, it was, it was just intense, you know, but I don’t know, like, I don’t know if anything could have gone differently. If someone could have rescued her, they probably would have.

1:44:04 Do you know what I mean? Like, she had opportunity, you know, it’s horrible to say, you know, like, it’s, it’s hard for me to say because I don’t, I don’t feel like I knew her, you know, anymore. Like, I feel like I kind of knew bits of her, you know, but like, I never really truly knew her. So it’s hard for me to say I wasn’t, I wasn’t in that close knit circle. I was just a, I can’t, I’ll flick her in and out.

1:44:29 Were you ever that close to like, I might not be, might not be alive? I thought that would happen a few times, you know, like, there’s been a number of times where I thought I’d fucked up, you know, and kind of, I never wanted it to happen. And I never kind of, that wasn’t something which I, which I hoped or kind of, you know, a lot of people say, you know, like, you can get to a certain point where you just want it to end. I never did. I always wanted to get out, you know, like, I always wanted to be okay, you know.

1:45:03 Yeah, she seemed like she had a lot of depression mixed in there, you know, a lot of like moments where she didn’t want to be there, you know, from, from the narrative there, which I guess is different than just punching yourself. Yeah, I think it’s, it’s one of those things like, what I learned was, was I thought I had all these fucking problems. I thought I had mental health problems. I thought I was depressed. I thought I had anxiety. I thought I had all this shit.

1:45:29 But once I removed this one thing, you know, I was like, Oh, I don’t have any of that shit. Like, that’s just, I have this fucking evil force in my life that’s fucking me up, you know, so it’s, you know, that, yeah, I think, you know, remove the substance and see what is actually going on. Right, right. Because it drags everything else. I mentioned like, Kurt Cobain. Have you seen the Kurt Cobain?

1:45:53 No, I haven’t. I could see your baby staying away from these films. That one’s, I mean, I grew up with my life. I grew up with smells like teen spirit. We used to play it in my MIT fraternity house until six in the morning. And, and the film was deep because they show all this footage of him and Courtney like all fucked up on heroin in their house.

1:46:09 And sometimes there’s like, the baby’s there and Kurt’s all messed up and it’s just really hard to watch some of it. But they also took a lot of his diaries and his notebooks and it’s beautifully made movie. But again, like you see him and it’s just like, just painfully tragic. And, you know, and you look at the musicians, Janice Joplin, there’s a new documentary out about her, Hendrix. And I mean, being in the music industry, when you see these like great stories stop short.

1:46:30 I mean, I guess the reason I’m talking about these people is because they died young. But also you see like this, this, you know, this, the music industry to a certain extent, bring these kind of tragic stories because you don’t really see it in Hollywood. You don’t really see it on the stage. You see it in some Hollywood stories like you see it, you know, I think you see it everywhere. And I think, I think that’s the thing. Like, I think if it’s in you, it’s in you.

1:46:55 I don’t think there’s, I think it would eventually catch up with you. You know, like, I don’t think it can always have to kill you. You know, there’s always, there’s, there’s hopefully a point when you can turn it around. You know, but there is, like I said, I’ve seen so many people from so many different walks of life be exactly the same as me. You know, like, and I’ve sat in rooms with people who are from completely different backgrounds to me.

1:47:20 But they’re exactly the same as me when we both put substance in our body. The same thing happens. You know, so, and also like, you know, I’ve seen people who had different life experiences. Like, you know, like, I don’t know whether I, that’s the thing, like, for instance, I was interested me a lot, like, massively. And it’s something which I feel like I need to do in my life.

1:47:46 But I have not done it, and I probably will not do it. Because I have brought it up with my wife, you know, a few times. And however much I bring it round to her, it’s still me going and taking a mind-altering substance. And if I was to talk to any of my drugs counsellors or anybody from anything, they would fucking warn me against it. Because it is that, you know, but it’s not that. That’s what I try to fucking tell people. Even though I’ve never done it, but I’m the biggest fucking believer in this shit.

1:48:23 You know, like, I’ve watched so much stuff about it, and I listen to it, people talk about it, and it’s like, and I really need to do this, you know, to kind of, because when I looked at myself, like, I think, I think there was something that made me react a certain way. There’s something in my life that I don’t know what the fuck it is. Like, I have, you know, everyone has like, woe is me fucking stories about their family or their upbringing or, you know, all this kind of things, which I do.

1:48:49 And, you know, but is that what makes me the person I am? Because it didn’t make my sister the way that, you know, it didn’t happen to her or my brother. You know, it happened to me, you know. So it’s, it’s, it’s very, it’s very, I feel like I need to get to the bottom of this, and I feel like I wish it could be the way that I do get to the bottom of this. But do I need to? Everything’s going well. You know, do I need to kind of go down this road? But, you know, but anyway, at the moment, it is something which I cannot do because I can’t, I can’t, I don’t want to interfere in the relationship I have, you know, like, you know, the thing is, I understand what she means, you know, like, she’s seen everything, you know, she saw the most, you know, and it must be fucking heartbreaking to her to think that I want to do anything whatsoever.

1:49:43 Yeah. Because all these people in your life that are close to you have so much pain associated with the old man, when they’re just like, they probably think about it and they go to these dark places that they probably still haven’t resolved, you know. Yeah, yeah, totally. Like me, like me, like, for instance, I have never ever said sorry to Emma, like, because I don’t feel like I can, I can do it justice. You know, I don’t feel like that fucking word, like, I don’t feel like that means enough for what I need to say to her. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’m so thankful for her and like, I can’t even express how amazing of a person she has been to me, you know, and everyone I know will say exactly the same thing.

1:50:31 And it’s not just, it’s not just a love thing. It’s like everyone, she’s the most amazing force in my life. And so I can’t, I think the only way I can say sorry is by being the person I am today. You know, like being this person that she can look at and know that I’m not that guy anymore and I’m not going to be that guy anymore. You know, that’s what, that’s how I feel I say sorry.

1:50:57 And so I don’t want to, so by going against her wishes, you know, and taking something, you know, it’s just a bad idea. But maybe if I make her watch enough fucking documentaries on DMTs, she might come around to it. Right. But you know, it’s not just London Real or… Exactly. Exactly.

1:51:15 But no, I’ve had friends of mine who’s better haves have been really hesitant about them trying ayahuasca because they have histories of and they just like, oh, you’re just going to get messed up again when it’s actually very, very different. And I like where you are right now. And so I’m not encouraging that you get on this road, but maybe in five years time. Yeah, totally. I mean, that’s the thing. It’s always something which I can go into. You know, I feel like, like something is, like something’s happened to me.

1:51:42 Like, like it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s, if you met me five years ago, you would not be talking to the same, you would really not be talking to the same guy, you know, so it’s, it’s, and even in the last kind of like 18 months I’ve seen it happen, you know, I kind of just went, I kind of went, why not? You know, like there’s certain things that I’m, I’m, I’m doing at the moment, like with, with acting, I’m, I’m doing a clothing line at the moment, I’m doing things which I kind of thought, you know, like I’ve heard you talk about it before, where you kind of think, you know, like, who do you think you are to think you can do this shit, you know, who do you think you are, you know, and that’s just something it plays on my head. But then, but then I listened to the other voice in my head that says, why, why shouldn’t you do this? You know, like, why, why, why not, you know, like try to listen to that voice a lot more now.

1:52:36 And you think what I, the Iowaska journey might make me think about different voices? No, I think, I think it might, I think, I think the Iowaska journey might give me some kind of clarity, you know, because, because there’s still something in me that says, why the fuck do I behave like this? You know, because I see it in other aspects of my life, it’s not just with drinking drugs, I see it with sugar, which is ridiculous, like, I see it with cigarettes, like I’ve quit smoking more times than I can tell you, you know, like, like, like, like, at the moment I don’t smoke, but I don’t know what the fuck’s going to happen.

1:53:09 Like, as soon as I smell a cigarette, something happens in me, you know, like, it’s been the hardest thing to give up out of all of them, you know, so it’s, you know, something acts differently within me, you know, and it’s, I just want to know what it is, right? Where if there is some kind of trouble or trauma in my life, or if there’s something, some answer which I’m not looking at, or if there’s something which I’m not paying attention to, then I want to know what that is, you know. Well, Iowaska materially changed my life, you know, we did the show on London Real back in the early days, I think right when we started, like, four years ago, and we did the before and after episode.

1:53:44 Yeah, I listened to that episode, it’s amazing. We had people contacts that said don’t do this, people in the Iowaska community said don’t do this, you know, it’s illegal, you shouldn’t talk about it, blah, blah, blah, but we did. And we also talked about the ceremony details, which I think a lot of people found fascinating because people wanted to know what is it really like to see. And I did my three ceremonies in London. The first one was south of the river, and the second one was right here on the sofa, right here in the studio, and the third one here as well.

1:54:09 And when I did the first one, I just told myself, Brian, you’re going to have to do two more this year because you’ve got to do the work on yourself, even though it can be terrifying going to these ceremonies because you’re going to be confronted with things you don’t want to be confronted with. And it’s very rough on you, and it’s very hard. It’s like having all the people you’ve ever upset in your life inside your head, yelling at you for, say, three hours and you can’t go anywhere.

1:54:33 And it’s just, it’s really uncomfortable, but it serves a purpose. It’s horrendous. It is horrendous, and so that’s why anybody who takes a large dose of psilocybin, not so much D&D because it’s shorter-lived, but still, or an Iowaska ceremony, you know you’re going to go in for usually a beating. And I always tell people during your Iowaska ceremony, you’re usually not going to be thinking about your IPO or your next gold album. You’re usually going to be talking about some things that you’re not doing right, some people you’re not treating right, the environment maybe you’re not treating right, or just in general what you’re not doing right.

1:55:08 And it goes right into the hard stuff. But for me, it was transformative, and I think it helped me a bit with substance issues because I’ve heard this a few times before, and I don’t know if you felt this way, but when you drink a lot, it’s a great way to be alone sometimes, to turn off. I know you might be social at the same time, but it’s a great way to feel like you’re not connected to everybody in this world. I’m guessing performing is a great way to feel connected, but for me, I was down that tip a lot, and you just feel like I’m all alone, and then I go into my little self, and I kind of get fucked up in my head because I don’t want to deal, and you come back, you’re alone.

1:55:44 But the psychedelic experience, it really connects you to everybody, and it shows how maybe you should be nice to that person, and you should treat that person well, and you should maybe be nice to these community people, and maybe spend some time with these children over here, and it’s like, it really grounds you in the human experience. And so for me, it was really important. For me, it was the last thing that would ever be addictive. I mean, you’re in here, you drink this horrible nasty stuff, you are throwing up most of the night, you can’t sleep that night.

1:56:13 And the next day, the last thing you want to do is drink it again, and it’s not considered anything that’s a drug, but at the same time, it does change your consciousness. So I can understand why significant others would be like, hmm, but for me, it’s an integral part of the human experience, and anyone who doesn’t admit that, it’s got to be out of their minds. Because anyone who even does research on psilocybin, including Professor David Nutt, who’s been in the studio, who’s coming back in April, who does the top UK research on psilocybin, he even says, how could he not study this?

1:56:48 Because it’s one of the most fascinating things that happens in the human brain. So I’ll leave you with that. The three for me were so important. I mean, I moved in with my girlfriend and her daughter because of that Iowa Oscar experience. And I started letting people into my life because when I was a kid, I was just like, I didn’t want anyone to hurt me.

1:57:07 And I could see all that clear as day and that Iowa Oscar experience, and I was just like, Brian, you got to stop blocking off people because you think they can hurt you. Because these people actually are going to enrich your life. And I think so. It was very important for me. So I’ll leave it at that for you.

1:57:24 Last thing I want to talk to you about is really podcasts. I mean, they’ve really affected you in a big way and they affected me. I mean, London Real is here because it was quite honestly inspired by Joe Rogan. And I used to, I remember coming home after a long day in the banking world and yelling at phones all day and trying to get more money from this guy and not let this guy get my money and all that stuff. And I would come home and I’d remember watching his old ones on IMEO. I don’t think they were on YouTube yet.

1:57:54 And it would be three guys talking about real stuff, Aubrey Marcus talking about Iowa Oscar, the CEO of Onnit. And I was just like, wow, just watching these three guys talk real for three hours was just so powerful to me as a young man, not even young men in his 30s. And it changed my life, even though it was just being part of a conversation, you know, being privy to a conversation. Upgrading myself into a peer group that I could never be a part of because I would never be in LA hanging out with Joe Rogan.

1:58:24 And there weren’t putting on a show and there was no commercial break, there was no this, that. And I was 18 months almost to the day that I saw Aubrey Marcus talk about Iowa Oscar that I took Iowa Oscar. And it took me that long to research it and think about it and come to terms with it and finally do it. And I encourage everybody to take as long as they need to do that. And if it either calls you or it doesn’t.

1:58:45 Some people, they see my episode of Iowa Oscar and they’re like, what’s it called? Some people are curious. But that kind of change changed my life. Danny Jones when he was here said, one night listening to a London Real on the back of a bus, when the dark, he just had these moments where clarity for him. I don’t know, forgive himself or get over some anxiety.

1:59:06 And these audio conversations, they’ve changed my life and they’ve changed yours. I just want to know why do you think that is? And yeah, why is that such a powerful medium for you? I think for me, the first thing is I know what happens in every other interview because I’ve been in pretty much every other interview situation. And you’re not giving the whole story. You’re not being honest. You’re not being like, I mean, you kind of are, but there’s boundaries.

1:59:38 There’s certain things you shouldn’t talk about. There’s certain things that your PR guy says you maybe shouldn’t talk about or these kind of things. And there’s certain things that you can’t talk about because of sponsorship or this or that or any of that shit. But this is not that. This is just guys talking about things that are important and that we all think about and we never really discuss.

1:59:58 And for instance, me and two of my friends started to have conversations because we’d all listened to the same podcast and we just had these fucking amazing conversations about it. I was like, fuck, we just talked for an hour and 20 minutes about something which we would have never thought about talking about. But we heard someone talk about it with such power and such, I don’t know, knowledge, but even knowledge isn’t even the most important thing.

2:00:25 It’s even just opinion. Someone actually speaking their mind is empowering, I think. But then again, knowledge is something which I get from it because I learned so much from so many different people. And especially your podcast, you introduced me to a world of people who I would never find normally. And I listened to things which have no interest to me, but I find something in it that I take away and it makes me think about something.

2:00:55 And it might make me act differently in something else. And I find that, I find this whole podcast world just amazing. And I listen to a lot of them. And the good thing about it is it feels like it’s a little community because you might hear someone on one and then find that they’ve got a podcast and then they’ve got another guest. And then you listen to them and you find this whole spider web. My phone has got like probably 40 different podcasts on it that I’m subscribed to.

2:01:28 And all of them have come from someone listening to something. I kind of stare at me in another direction. I love it. It’s a medium that’s changing the world. I’m not ready to give my next TED Talk, but I think my next TED Talk is going to talk about, like, to the outside world, all we’re doing is two guys talking for a long period of time.

2:01:49 But what I really think we’re doing is we’re listening to each other. And we don’t do that anymore these days, especially with the internet and Twitter and all this stuff. Like you said, internet famous, like, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. I don’t think anyone just sits down and listens anymore. So when you listen to an episode of One and Real, like you said, you don’t know who this person is.

2:02:10 So by saying I’m going to give them 90 minutes or an hour or even 20 minutes, I’m going to sit there and listen. I think it actually opens up your humanity. It makes you a better human being because you’re willing to have empathy for another spirit and try to find some connection with them. And afterwards you walk around and you’re like, OK, I feel more connected. These people are just like me. They don’t look like me. They don’t talk like me, but they got the same struggles I do.

2:02:37 So I think there’s a lot more going on here than two guys having a two hour conversation. Much more. Yeah, I think so. And I’m still trying to figure it out. But there’s something happening here. I think so.

2:02:50 And it’s a connection of all these pieces. And it’s like you said, Rogan and Faris and us and like, you know, anyone can make these great things kind of come to life. So to be continued on how it changes things. I just want to find out a few aspects of your daily life that makes you successful. You talked about getting up early and training before work. You know, when I see someone like you, I wouldn’t think you would have this regimented work schedule.

2:03:14 Is there anything like meditation that shake in the morning, that training schedule or the sleeping schedule that makes you know the mat? Willis it’s the juggernaut you are. You know what I’m about to ask you next. So don’t think about it. Okay.

2:03:55 Matt Willis, if you were going to make a phone call to the 20 year old. 20. 20. So this would have been, you still would have been in busted, right? With the guys.

2:04:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We broke the windows 21. Okay. Yeah. So still would have been in busted, probably drinking a little bit, not too much, but no.

2:04:15 Tons of fame, feeling probably a little social anxiety, but feeling great and open on a stage, I’m guessing. And if you wanted to give him a bit of advice, like, well, literally, if you could call him, I know it would be creepy and you’d be like, Matt, you’re like, yeah, this is the older Matt. What would you tell him? Thing is what springs to mind is to, is to warn him about, about, about drinking drugs and things. But I don’t know if I would want to warn him about that because I think I do in some weird way, feel like that’s why I am like this now. And I like who this is now. You know, so I don’t know if I want to change that. You know, maybe I needed to fucking go through that shit. So I don’t think I would do that. I think I would tell him to believe in himself a little bit.

2:05:02 And stop, stop doubting himself so much because that’s what I would say. I say, Matt, you need to believe in yourself a little bit more. What’s the best advice you’ve ever received? The best advice I’ve ever received. Did you have any musical mentors over the years or anything like that? I don’t remember you talking about that much.

2:05:27 Not really. I think I got told in theatre school to find the truth in anything you do. Find the truth in it. And that’s something which I’ve always tried to do. And whenever I’ve not, it’s not worked. So what is true is always right.

2:05:53 With acting, always find the truth. It will work. With music, find the truth and it will relate to everybody. Because as long as there’s truth in it, people will relate to it. If someone’s telling a story which has nothing to do with me, but if they’re telling it from a true place, I can relate to it in some weird way because I can feel their emotions.

2:06:13 Find the truth is the best advice I’ve ever received. And that’s what makes great music. Even on a lizard brain level, we get the truth when we hear it and we’re drawn to it. That whole punk rock thing, three chords and the truth. What is it?

2:06:31 Three chords and the truth. That’s what punk rock is. That’s what punk rock is. That’s part of that question. There’s 20-year-old out there listening right now who is where you were then. Maybe not where you were.

2:06:45 He wants to be a rock star. He wants to be famous. He wants to be in movies. He wants to live the life you’ve lived. What do you tell him?

2:06:59 What do I tell him? I don’t know. I don’t think there is any formula to doing anything. I think you just have to… The thing is, if he’s like me, then I tend to keep going. You just have to keep going.

2:07:18 And also, just do it. This is the biggest thing I’ve learnt in the last couple of years. Just fucking do it. Stop talking about it. Stop coming up with excuses why you shouldn’t do it. Just do it.

2:07:30 For instance, I’ve just been doing a clothing band recently and it’s something which I’ve wanted to do for years and years and years. Which I love. But I’ve made up so many excuses why I shouldn’t do it. And also why it would be impossible for me to do it. Because I don’t know how to do it. I have to find somebody to do it for me. I have to put my name to it and all this shit.

2:07:47 And it wasn’t until I just went, you know what? I’m just going to start doing it. And I did it and it’s nowhere near as hard as I thought it was. And everything’s kind of falling into place. And I’m doing everything myself and it kind of all works. Just do it. And you’ll find out as you go.

2:08:03 And don’t be scared to try something. Great advice. You just quoted Dan Pena. Except he says just effing do it. Oh really? I’m going to love this guy. I can’t wait to listen to his podcast.

2:08:19 You know, I used to get these tweets on like a Sunday night and there would be like 67 retweets. And my guys would be like, yeah, something happened on Twitter. And I’d be like, what the hell is that? And I’d be like, these guys from a buster they’re retweeting you and these guys buster they’re retweeting you. And that’s how I first found out. Oh really? Oh, right.

2:08:37 And you were telling the bandmates and you were listening to it. Yeah. And you guys remember like you guys were flying back from Ireland or something and you guys just watched this on London Real. And so you guys started blowing up our Twitter feed. I guess that was 18 months or two years ago or something.

2:08:50 And that’s when you guys first got on my map and on my radar. And I know you told Dougie about that. Really like Dougie, by the way. Super cool guy and fucking cool. I met Danny and I met a few of the other guys backstage who knew of it or didn’t know who I was.

2:09:02 They were like, okay, but I really appreciate you listening. Dude, I appreciate everything you do, man. Like it’s had a massively positive influence on my life. So thank you. Cool, man. That makes all the difference.

2:09:14 And when I hear stories about like someone listening to something one time and it just clicked, it’s like I’ll never be there when that happens. And I didn’t know. It must be weird because you just do this and then you just send it out and it’s just in the world. But there are people like me and lots of other people listening to this and it’s affecting them. It’s a very fucking cool, positive thing you’re doing.

2:09:35 It’s a super positive thing and I get that energy back in so many ways and that I don’t even know. And so it is a beautiful thing. And the last year I’ve started actually connecting with people that watch London Real and listen to it. And they come to the studio and I’m finally feeling everything, which is great because I used to just send it out. It would be like you making music and then never knowing.

2:09:55 Yeah, you’re making a show and then never even hearing feedback. And so for a while for me I was just like, but then I would meet people on the street and then meet other people and they would say this, this. So it’s been great for me. It’s so great. It’s extremely rewarding.

2:10:07 So thanks for finding us. Thank you. And yeah, I love hearing about your journey. Thanks for coming on and giving it all real. Did we cover everything? I think we did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

2:10:18 Let’s do this in a couple of years and check back on how you’re doing. Amazing. Tell me about your IWAS experience. I will. The clothing line. Yeah. The Oscar. Great. Great. I love that.

2:10:29 But as I’m going to really say, it’s about the journey. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. All the best on yours. Thanks, man. Bye. Thanks very much.