Mat Fraser - Hard Work Pays Off: Lessons From The Fittest Man On The Planet

Full transcript: Mat Fraser on London Real

2:32 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose, my guest today is Matt Fraser, the athlete, fitness expert and best-selling author. You are known as The Fittest Man on Earth. After becoming the first person to win five CrossFit Games titles, winning the 2016-17, 1819 and 2020 Games consecutively. The Crossfit Games is the definitive test of fitness, combining strength, speed, endurance and skill to find the best overall athlete on the planet. And you are widely considered to be the most dominant and successful individual male athlete in the sport of Crossfit.

3:04 Your mantra is Hard Work Pays Off, which is also the title of your Sunday Times best-selling book and offers an in-depth guide. For anyone hoping to improve their fitness and become the best version of themselves possible. You believe that consistency, alongside a relentless attitude, enabled you to become the number one athlete in the world. Matt, welcome to LondonReal. Thank you for having me, Hey, it’s great to have you here.

3:26 You know, I want to jump right in because your mindset is what really got me excited about today. And maybe it reminded me a little bit of my mindset sometimes, but you say that you love to train scared. But yet it’s more complicated than that. And I’m just going to quote you because you said to be the best version of yourself, you have to quote simultaneously. Believe that.

3:48 I’m overrated and invincible that I’m an imposter on the verge of being humiliated on the competition floor. And that I’m an untouchable Lamborghini. On a scene of broken down hoopties, gonna use some American slang? Explain that mentality? Yeah, you know, it was, you know, so for anyone that’s unfamiliar with, you know, the sport of Crossfit, most competitions that you go into.

4:18 There’s no rules or regulations on what the events can be. There’s no, you don’t know how many events you’re going to do, you don’t know what movements you’re going to do. Time domains anything, so you have to practice for everything or try to practice for everything. And so you know, you’re always trying to imagine, you know, what could the competition program for an event that would derail me or, you know, put me in last place or just humiliate me? So you’re trying to creatively think of what would cause me to fail and then practicing it.

4:51 But at the same time, when you’re when I, when I would be training on an implement that I was familiar with comfortable with. And I knew, you know, my paces and stuff like that, you have to, you have to have this mindset of that. I am the best, I am strong. Nothing can beat me because they’re, they’re, I mean, there’s peaks and valleys in it. And so I remember, you know, I whenever I was on.

5:16 You know, either a rowing machine or a concept two bike, or basically just like a fan spin bike. I would set it up in front of the mirror and watch myself and just convince myself like I’ve. I have Hoard. I have hoarse lungs like no one can take in more oxygen than me. No one’s more powerful to me, but at the same time I’m thinking everyone’s going to beat me.

5:39 So I have to give just 100 an absolute 100 of my effort. Knowing that, no matter how I feel right now, in 10 minutes, I’m gonna have my breath back. My heart rate’s going to be down. I’m going to feel fine, so it’s making sure that how am I going to feel about that effort? I just gave in 10 minutes when all the pain is gone?

5:58 So it’s just always making sure that I’m making myself proud. Knowing that I’m. I’m pushing myself to the absolute limit and tapping my potential, but then always training, picturing people, beating me. How do you keep those two concepts in your head at the same moment? Because most people walk around with one or the other, usually the latter?

6:17 Most people probably defeat themselves before they even try things most of the times, and imagine all the bad things that will happen. But like, how do you keep them both in your mind because if you’re too egotistic, then you won’t train hard enough? Yeah, once I find the perfect formula, I’ll let you know, you know, and it’s, you know, it’s a wave of emotions because you can go. Usually it feels like your best training day ever is immediately followed by your worst training day ever. So I was trying to find that balance and have that calming confidence as well of like, everything’s gonna be okay.

6:55 This too, shall pass, you know, like, give this a couple days to recover. It’s okay to take a rest day, you know, and putting in all the work outside of the gym, you know, the bodywork, nutrition, sleep, all that stuff. But just having also then having that calming presence of everything’s going to be okay, yeah, that’s tricky. Oh yeah, you know, yeah, I wasn’t great at that part, and you also say, and you mentioned, you kind of alluded to this earlier. I’m gonna do today what other people aren’t willing to do, so I can do tomorrow what other people can’t.

7:29 That’s kind of yours, what is that? Oh no, no, that’s not mine. That was that actually came from, so I believe it was Jerry Rice that said it, but then it was in. It was in the engineering school, and, you know, my study partner and I the guy that, you know. We kind of made sure that we were all in all the same classes so that we could be study partners.

7:51 Or if we had a project or a test coming up, we could work together. Because he was kind of in the same boat as me, he was, he was a little bit older than everyone else in class. He was also, he also didn’t drink, so he had no interest to go into, like the college parties or anything like that. So Friday and Saturday night it was he and I were in the library, and he was actually the one that introduced me to it. And it was when it was probably like 10 P.m on a Friday Saturday night.

8:19 And, you know, we’re both just rack trying to rack our brains around this report that’s due. And he, he said, that line, and it just. It just clicked with me. I was like, Oh, of course, like, if I want those results on the next exam I need to. I need to be the one that’s staying in the library longer than everyone else.

8:39 I need to be the one that’s reading more than everyone else. I need to be the one that’s practicing because I’m not the most naturally talented person by a long shot. But I’ll make sure I outwork most, right. So you learned that lesson as a student before you became, Yeah, it was the same. Same as with the mantra Hard work pays off, you know, I think because I got my notoriety and I got my popularity through competing in CrossFit that I think most people assume that’s where that came from.

9:10 But that was from engineering school, and a couple years in, it was once I finally made the decision. That like, this isn’t an option, this isn’t. A I want to be an engineer, this is like, Oh, [expletive]. I have to be an engineer because I got nothing else. And it was during thermodynamics, and I found out later that it was known as like a weed out course in university.

9:39 It was early on, and so they’re like, they, they were like, You know? We want to make sure that if you don’t like engineering, you find out early so that you can just like, cut your losses. Basically. And so the first exam, you know, oh, it was an embarrassing score. I think I got like a 38 on my first exam and then the second exam wasn’t much better.

9:58 It was 42 and then the teacher going into the final was he was like, Hey, the average in the class right now is like a 48 like 90 of you are failing. So if your final exam is your highest score, that’s your entire grade. And I just want, okay, like, good and I. I just knew that if I, if I don’t, if I’m not pursuing engineering, if I don’t become an engineer, what the What the hell am I? And?

10:27 And so it was. I was like, I, I don’t know what I have to do, so I’m going to make sure to just do everything. And I remember just I would sit up in the library, I would go up to. The third floor was the silent floor, and I would just get a little cubicle and just ungodly sized cup of coffee. And I would just have the textbook.

10:45 And I would just read the entire chapter, and I would take notes of every word that I didn’t know what it was. Go back research each one of those words individually and then reread the chapter. And then, like the homework problems, you know, if it was, you know, one of, like, one, four, you know, there’s a half dozen problems with homework. I would do all 40 from that chapter, and it was just like, I’m. I’m not going to leave a single stone unturned.

11:09 And then and then I, you know, aced the final. And then I remember in the thermodynamics, too. It’s like there’s a couple tests that I set the curve for the class, and I was like, Oh, [expletive], okay, this works, you know, and exactly. And the biggest thing for me was I learned how to learn, and so you know, I continued that through engineering. And then, you know, found, found Crossfit and just applied the same mentality to Crossfit.

11:36 And I was like, Okay, this works pretty well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna keep applying this to every aspect of my life. Interesting Wow. I’ve never heard of an athlete that used what they learned in engineering to become a better athlete. Yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t like through high school, I was far from a star student like I was. I cut every corner possible.

11:55 I remember when I would get the syllabus it was when I was usually about halfway through the semester. You know, two-thirds the way through the semester. In high school, I would go through the syllabus and see the grading system of how, like, attendance, all homework test quizzes, how they were all weighted. And I would. I would see how far into the semester I had to go before I stopped doing homework before I stopped showing up for exams.

12:21 Anything like that, you know, the teachers would be like, like, You had an A in the class. And now you’re down to a C or almost a D. Like what’s happening? Oh, I did all the math on the Syllabus, I’m, I have a passing grade, so that’s all I care about. And so I was far from the star student.

12:40 And but then once, once it came to university, it was that, you know, that doesn’t cut it. You know, not studying for exams, not doing homework. The teacher doesn’t care, you know they’ll fail you. It’s no skin off their back, and so you know. But then so learning how to learn for me was the biggest revolution for me of just like, How do I have to break down each of these situations into, you know, a daily test?

13:07 But whether my goal is next month, next year, five years from now, what do I have to do today? To get to where I want to be in five years? And just having that daily checklist of like, Okay, I did everything I could today to get myself where I want to be in five years of having flashbacks to my degree, in my engineering degree and my thermodynamics that I took as a sophomore. So I went to M.I.T. and people always say, Oh, how what was Boston like? And I always say, I don’t know, yeah, because I was in the [expletive] basement.

13:38 Yep, so we had a 24-hour library at M.I.T. called Hayden. I would. I just wanted to visit a few months ago because my daughter’s gonna go to school in Boston. And I went back and I used to live in a fraternity house, and I used to get a big bag full of books. And I would head out and walk by.

13:51 All the guys drinking beer. And I would go there and stay there until two, three, four in the morning. And just they called it. Tooling at M.I.T. Which means you just get in there and you try to shove as much information in your brain as possible.

14:01 And thermodynamics was crazy hard. Because all these concepts that are just challenging to figure out and like you said, it weeds out the men from the boys. Yeah, yeah, I remember doing it, it was really funny, you know? I went to University of Vermont for the for the majority of my degree. And, you know, walking through campus.

14:20 And it’s like, you see all the students like laying out in the courtyard or, you know, know, they slack lining. They’re all just doing fun activities. And then you see all the engineers, and it’s just like they’re all wearing, like carhartt pants and just a heavy flannel, just whatever’s practical. It gets the job done, it gets you through the Vermont winter and then you just live in the library. And I remember, you know, I was trying to get through my degree as quickly as possible.

14:48 I actually did two degrees, did engineering, then I also got a degree from the business school as well. And so I was. I was just trying to crank through as much as I could. So during the semester, just every course I could fit in and then taking summer courses. And for the really, really hard classes, I would go and teach them, Hey, are you offering this during the summer?

15:11 And they said, Ah, you know, we need eight students to offer it. If you get eight other students, I’ll teach us in the summer, and I’m like, All right, let’s go on a campaign. And I would, I would convince, you know, seven other students to do it with me, and we would do. I think I did fluid dynamics and heat transfer. And the teacher was like, Hey, like, I’ll do it.

15:31 Like, if you guys want this to be an eight-week course, a four-week course. And we would be like four weeks. And so we would sit in the classroom for six hours a day, five days a week and just fit a whole semester into four weeks. And it was miserable. I love it, but you have that one singular focus.

15:49 You’re not worried about any other courses, any other homework, and then you have seven other, you know, study partners. That it was just like, Hey, boys, let’s sit down, let’s crank through this, and let’s just get through this together. And then you’re patting yourself on the back. You’re thanking yourself the next semester, when you’re sitting in whatever course it is. And then all your classmates from Heat Transfer come in.

16:12 And they’re all like, Oh my God, that test, and you’re sitting there like, Thank God I did that over the summer, that’s so nice. Yeah, no. For me, it was a battle with self those four years, and I remember, I mean, and I was in the fraternity house. So you got all these distractions over here. You’re a young man, you’re kind of coming up, so you got the alcohol, you got the girls, you got the box.

16:32 I couldn’t imagine trying to do engineering while having a like the typical college party life, or like living in a frat house. I don’t know how you’d manage, it was just crazy because you got priorities and then you’re thinking about your future. And I remember in Finals week I used to like Black out my whole room, and I’d write, I’d write things on my wall. Like you. Weak ass piece of garbage like you got nothing, how bad do you want it?

16:53 And I was just like, in the zone, yeah, it was just this whole time and you know, it was, it was, you know, and I saw some guys and kids that got into. M.I.T. would drop out a year later and go back and be bite. Messengers like you saw these people dropping out and it was like it was real, this is your life. I. I couldn’t comprehend the people that, you know, wanted to be engineers.

17:15 And then they failed one class. And then they’d be like, Oh, I need to switch degrees, or I can’t graduate on time. And I. I couldn’t wrap my mind around that because I was like, Graduate on time for what? What are you trying to be on time for who?

17:30 Who cares if you graduate in four years or four and a half years or five years, like, I don’t get it? And I was like, You’re making this lifelong decision based off this one little thing. You know, like 10 years later, looking back, and it’s like, Yeah, doing, you know, linear algebra. And it’s like, Yeah, it was miserable, and it seemed like it was never going to end in that moment. Ten years later, you’re like, Ah, yeah, it was kind of challenging, you know, and I, I could never wrap my mind around that of like, you know, I think I think it was just pounding into my head with my dad of like, You know, don’t, don’t make a permanent, what was it?

18:11 Don’t make a permanent solution off a temporary problem. And I was like, Okay, you know, and for myself, you know, I. I went to four different universities over the years, you know, I just kept transferring based off my weightlifting career. But yeah, for university. So every time I transferred, you know, half your credits don’t transfer, and then, you know, the Holic.

18:34 In me, it’s like, If one degree is good, two is better. And so when I, when I finally decided on University of Vermont, I did a double major double minor. Because moderation, if one’s good two, is better and then just completely overloaded it. But you know, it was miserable, it was hard. But I was like, No, like, when I’m 40, 50 years old, I’m going to thank myself for having this education.

18:56 Yeah, it’s fascinating to now see how your maybe your crossfit success was born in your engineering training, and so that’s fascinating. And I want to jump into this because I’m gonna go right into Crossfit games because some people have probably seen clips online. But yeah, let’s talk about what it is because it’s quite a long period. Like you said, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to be training for. But drop me into, like, 2018 Crossfit games, like, How many days is it, how much do you know about it before it happens, how many athletes are showing up and like, what’s on the line?

19:28 I wish I could give you just a clean cut set of rules of what is going to be. But every year it’s different every year. You know, there’s little tweaks and changes here there, like, How many days is it? So typically it’s four days, I would say. The most typical is compete Wednesday.

19:50 So that’s like the events that aren’t spectator friendly. So like the, you know, the events that are, you know, two, three hours long, they’re off-site. So you know, you need a big venue. So usually running swimming, biking, type events. And then a lot of times you’d have Thursday off and then compete Friday, Saturday, Sunday, okay, and usually it’s around, you know, 13 to 15 events.

20:16 You know, you get a hundred points per event or there’s 100 points available, and it’s a sliding scale on the way down. And I would say the most typical is 40 competitors in your division, so 40 individual male competitors, 40 individual female competitors total. And is it by age group, or is it just so? So there are age divisions. Well, no, no, no weight divisions.

20:40 So, you know, there’s benefits of, you know, being the 140 pounder, there’s benefits of being the 220 pounder. But then there’s also consequences to both of those as well. But so there are age group divisions for teenagers and masters. I think you know, there’s 65 plus division, and then there’s like the 14 15 year old division, so I mean, completely widespread. But the most popular division, you know, the title that everyone’s after is the individual, so it’s open age category.

21:12 There’s no weight limits or, you know, weight classes, and it’s just you show up and you don’t know what you’re gonna do. So we, we’ve had it, you know, I’ve had five days continuous, so it was, yeah, Thursday, Friday or no Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, so you really don’t. You don’t know if there’s a rest day either, as well. No, usually not, and then you know, as the competition is getting closer, you know, hints are getting dropped. You know, a piece of equipment will get posted or something like that, and then people start speculating, and so they mess with you a little bit.

21:49 Oh, it’s, yeah, yeah, that’s half the game is trying to keep your mental game strong enough because, you know, hints are getting put out and you’re like, You know, they’ll say, Hey, this year we’re swimming, and you don’t know if you’re swimming 25 meters, you don’t know if you’re swimming a mile. You know, there’s been rumors that you’re going to get put on a boat driven a mile offshore and then just a horn. Go first one to shore wins that scares the hell out of a lot of people. Oh yeah, I’m Jim will freak out of that. Oh, I mean, the mental side of it, you know, the anticipation, the so many people fall victim to the What if game.

22:26 You know if they, if they say, Oh, there’s an event with, you know, cleaning jerks and double unders. Everyone’s speculating like, Oh, what do you think it’s gonna be? I’m like, We know what the movements are, but we don’t know if that cleaning jerk is 95 pounds or 350 pounds. So what, what’s the point of playing this? what if game it’s? And?

22:46 And so, you know, early on in my career, you know, I, I had a my coach at the time was very focused on the mindset. And it was so a lot of that stuff got ingrained in me. And it was, No, we don’t guess we wait until the rules are announced, we wait until the events are announced to put a game plan together. Because what’s the point of putting a plan together without any guidelines? And then you’re just wasting energy.

23:12 And then when the rules are announced, then it’s like, Oh, [expletive], all right, we gotta scrap all of that, and then into this next one. But yeah, every year I competed, there was a different qualifying procedure or a different format of competition, different scoring system. There’s always changes every single year, it’s unlike any competition in the world that has that change. Because I just took you through a tour of the studios here, and I showed you my Ironman 70.3. And like, you know it, it was very challenging for me to train for, but I knew what it was going to be on the day.

23:43 Yeah, and even though it was my first in a different circumstance, like I did the same thing, yeah, and that’s true about pretty much any other physical competition that I can think of, except maybe like Ninja Warrior or something on TV. Yeah, but like, this is very, that’s unique. Yeah, like I, I’ve we, I’m not, not just myself. There’s 40 of us going we, we’ve had events that we didn’t know what the event was as we were doing it. So you walk out and there’s, you know, a concept to skierg, and then there’s a dumbbell and then a tall box.

24:17 And so you’re kind of like, Okay, what are we doing with the Dumbbell? What are we doing with the skier? And we were told I had run up to the piece of equipment. Your judge will tell you what the movement is, and then you just start doing reps, and then they’ll tell you when to stop. And then you move on to the next one, then you move on to the next one.

24:36 And so you’re really playing a guessing game of, you know how? How do I pace? This? Is this a five minute event? Is this a 30-minute event?

24:45 And did one event? My last season, where it was a trail run and I think it was a three mile loop and very aggressive train. Like super steep. Where you’re, you’re on all fours and run into the finish line, hit the finish line and then told all Right now, do it in reverse and you’re like, I just paste, paste this for a three mile race. I’m gassed, and then, nope, go back, and so you don’t know what you’re gonna do.

25:18 Some things get announced ahead of time some competitions will release every event. You know, two weeks prior. And so wow, anything and everything and right in between, have you seen guys mentally break on? And when that things like that happen, where it’s like, I just get frustrated like I, I don’t you doing to us, I don’t think we’ve ever seen like the typical like mental crack, and somebody’s just like, I can’t do this anymore, you know, everyone is making it to. That level is a very high achiever, everyone that makes it to that level is a absolute stud physically, mentally everything.

25:55 But you see, you see some differences. And I, I don’t think it’s so obvious if you’re not looking for it, but you’ll, you know. It was pointed out to me early on in my career, you know, someone sent me an example of, and I didn’t even realize I was doing it. But a training partner and I wrote a workout up and the camera turned to me and I was like, Oh man, this one’s going to suck. And the other person was like, It’s gonna be fun, and I didn’t realize that, you know, I was just easy.

26:27 Conversation, like complaining is the easiest form of conversation. And then somebody pointed that out to me. And they’re like, Oh, your mental state, like your mind will follow your words and then your action will follow your mind. And so once you start looking at it in that format and then being an athlete in the warm-up area, you kind of see. What are the concerns of these other people?

26:51 Are they concerned about what just got announced, the rule, the ref they were assigned, or they worried about the effort that they’re about to put forward? And so I think I think you can see some mental challenges from people, but I don’t think it’s very obvious. It’s not like anyone sitting in the shower, rocking back and forth, crying. But yeah, you can see how people, their mental mindset going into events of what they’re concerned about. Yeah, and then that mental break will lead to physical as well.

27:22 Optimal performance. Yeah, as soon as you know, people start saying, like, Oh, that event was stupid, that was trash. Or you know, and then they start, you know, talking about how they’re sore and they’re complaining, like, Oh, my quads are getting overused. And whatever it is, you know, and, you know, I, I dealt with the exact same thing, like every year, your body’s screaming, you’re pushing yourself to the absolute limit. But then when I’m asked, like, how you feeling great, this is a nice, easy weekend, you know?

27:53 And inside, I’m like, Oh my God, don’t touch my thighs like they are so sore now. Do you do that for your own brain, or do you do that for everybody else? Frame both? Yeah, yeah, I’m always convinced trying to convince myself that I’m invincible. I’m trying to convince myself that I recover better. I’m trying to convince myself that I’m, you know, my nutrition is better.

28:13 Who knows if I actually am, but I’m, I’m telling myself that so that I don’t have an excuse during the event. When I’m when I’m in full pain mode, just keep going, keep going, keep going. But then also, I want my competitors to feel hopeless. You know, I’m not like I. I wanted my competitors to be fighting for second place when in all reality I know no I have.

28:36 I have the same chances winning as everyone else, like we’re all coming in here. Starting at zero, we all have to earn all the same. I’m not coming in with extra points because I was the champion last season. I’m not coming in because I won my last competition, anything like that, but I want like I remember, there was one year we had an event where we had to sledgehammer a weight down and it. It surprised people and I think it was the vibration off the sledgehammer.

29:03 Because it’s just vibrating in your grip, you’re using your grip in a way that we never have before. And I remember, like the pad of your thumb, I my hand dexterity was trashed like I couldn’t touch fingertips quickly. I was like, Something’s wrong with my grip, and I was really, really concerned about it. And so, you know, we’re sitting in the athlete lounge before the day gets kicked off the next day. And one of my buddies walks in who’s competitive there?

29:29 And he just, Hey, boys, anyone’s hands. [expletive] up and everyone’s like, Oh, thank God, my hands like I can’t squeeze. I lost my grip and I was like, What are you guys talking about? My grip’s fine, like, Why is your grip? and I? And who knows?

29:45 Maybe they just heard that comment and just brushed it off and didn’t give it a second thought. But maybe they looked at him like Jesus, of course he’s fine, you know, and so the little things like that. So part of it was for my own mental game, part of it was for the mental game of the others. It’s so psychological because when they’re having a really hard moment on the course that day, the next day. And they take you a glimpse of their eye, maybe, even subconsciously, their brain thinks he’s not having any problems with his grip.

30:14 Look at his grip. Look, he’s holding things better than I. Yeah, and then, you know, beat themselves, yeah, and how you pace workouts as well, you know, like depending on your lane assignments, how you’re ranked in the competition, the that determines who you’re next to. And so, you know, like I, I’m, I’m usually very good at pacing workouts. But if I saw someone else going out hot, or if they made a little comment to me before the event, or if I knew that, Hey, I know you’re better at this event than me, well, let me try to throw you off your game.

30:44 Let me like, I’m just gonna go out Super hot, I’m gonna go out super fast and knowing that, yeah, it may be bad for me, but it’s going to be worse for you if you try to keep up. So, you know, there’s a couple instances of events like that and some of them I’ve talked about and joked about and others. You know, I just kept quiet. And in the grand scheme, I don’t know. I don’t know if any of them worked, I don’t know if they actually had an effect or not, but I think they did.

31:13 Yeah, well, you won, that’s all that matters again. If they had an effect on you, then you know that could have given you the edge to win. I’ve had David Goggins in here and he calls it taken souls, you know, when somebody out there he’s competing with real or imaginary, he takes their soul because they just, they just can’t believe that. This guy is doing these things and once the soul is taken, then he then he owns the competition. Yeah, and it even things as simple as like the like for running events, the rubber band theory of.

31:44 If you’re in second place, it’s very easy to keep pace with the first plate. When you have someone setting the pace. It’s so much easier to run that when somebody’s in front of you, I know it’s the same for me. I tuck in behind someone. You’re drafting off them and you just stare at their heels and just line up with their cadence.

32:03 And it’s almost as if they’re pulling you with them. And if and if you’re in first place and someone’s doing that to you, they’re just thinking, All right, just keep up with him, just keep up with him. But then, as soon as you get enough of a break, enough of a gap in between them and you kind of break that mental rubber band. It’s no longer all right. Just keep up with him, just keep up with him now, it’s all right, just stay ahead of them, just stay ahead of them.

32:27 And so, you know, playing those games of all right, like I know I’m in first place. The second place guy is, maybe, you know, 10 yards behind me. So as soon as I turn this corner and he’s and he can’t see me, I’m going to sprint as hard as I can go until he’s in view again. And then I throttle back. So I’m trying to create that gap to break them mentally so that they’re no longer trying to keep up with me.

32:51 They’re trying to stay ahead of the rest of the pack. You know, little things like that, and who knows, like I didn’t run the scenario both ways, and so who knows? If it actually worked, I don’t have. I don’t have the control to compare it against. But it seemed I don’t think it’s a coincidence when it, when it did happen, right, right?

33:09 I heard you mention like I’ve got horse lungs, you know, I heard you mentioned some things that sound like Self-TaLk Do you have self-talk or affirmations or things that run through your mind, either pre-programmed or things you do, either when you’re in training or during competition. Oh, positive and negative. Yeah, okay, yeah, you know, like when I was doing, like, you know, pure cardio work. Whether it’s on a fan bike rower, whatever machine it was, where I’m stationary, I would try to always set it up in front of the mirror so that either. If I was slacking, I could see myself and I could see myself not working as hard as I was capable of.

33:46 And so then you know, it’s like, Come on, pick it up, you’re capable of more. You look pathetic right now. Or it’s the extreme opposite of, like, like trying to trying to be your own inspiration, you know, and if, and if you can do that, you know you’re idealizing your past experiences, remembering them in a better light so that you’re convincing yourself, that you’re always capable of more. You’re always chasing that performance from Prior, even if it is a little bit inflated or a little whatever, but always trying to push yourself to that next limit. But yeah, you know, I’d say that the biggest thing, that kind of ran through my head and it wasn’t when, like one specific saying.

34:34 But knowing that this is going to end, whether it’s this singular workout, the singular movement or the singular competition, whatever it is, it’s going to end. But I get to determine how I feel at the end of it I get to. There’s an opportunity in every workout, like your heart rate is spiked at its limit. You’re breathing as hard as you can, you’re in full pain mode. Like everything the red light is flashing of.

35:04 Like, slow down. And in the moment, you can slow down and get that little bit of instant gratification of like, Okay, it doesn’t hurt quite as much. It feels a little bit better, but as soon as the workout ends, I’m going to have that regret. And so I always knew that this, too, shall end whether whatever it is that I’m going through, whether it’s specific workouts, whatever it is going to end. And I get to determine how I feel at the end of it.

35:37 I get to decide if you know, I slowed down, felt a little bit better during the workout. Well, now I’m going to carry around that disappointment forever. Or I can push through the absolute [expletive] limit. Make myself proud when I hit the finish line and in both scenarios 10 minutes after the event’s done, your heart rate’s down, your breathing’s calmed. You’re sitting around the water cooler, having to sit, sit with all your buddies, joking about the workout.

36:06 And so I, I get to determine at the end of this workout, am I? Am I going to be proud of myself or not? And once I realized that, hey, in most scenarios, no matter how hard I go in this workout, I’m going to be fine. In 10 minutes after I’m going to be recouped, everything’s going to be good, you know, obviously there’s the extreme scenarios where you know you get injured or something like that. But so it was just a constant daily multiple times a day of make yourself proud, make yourself proud, give your full effort today so that I sleep well tonight. And then I’m proud of what I did.

36:46 And I found that if I’m proud of, if I’m proud of the effort I put in, the results are kind of secondary. You know, if I, I always train to that, that if I got second place, if I got 10th place, I was still happy. I was happy with the result results because I knew it, that was my potential. That’s right, this only happens when we have good guests on the show. It’s you’re about to make a cool point alarm.

37:18 Oh yeah, give it 10 seconds and it’ll pass, Man, you know, you reminded me of something, Arnold Schwarzenegger said. When he was making Conan the Barbarian. The director was said to him because he was falling off horses and he was just like, really struggling. And he said, Pain is temporary. But you know, the glory lasts forever.

37:36 So that, yeah, yeah, I had that poster in my gym for years, and, yeah, it was a Muhammad Ali, quote Muhammad Ali, quote, suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion and I don’t like that. Quote myself, No, no, because it makes it feel like I gotta do this because I don’t want to do it. And then I can just kick back the rest of my life. And that’s not the way I like to live my life, because I like to be proud of myself every single day. No matter what I do.

38:04 Just like you do, and that always. Maybe I took it out of context, but that’s why I was always a little bit hesitant when I hear that because it felt like, Yeah, things I don’t want to do to get this to where I’m gonna not do anything. yeah, I, I used it, you know, for the rare time like I was lucky enough to work in a career that I loved. Like, I got to work out for a living, like, how many people would give you their right arm for that opportunity? And so most days I didn’t need, I didn’t need it slogans or whatever to get into the gym.

38:41 Yeah, I’m like, I get to go work out all day. This is awesome. But then there was the rare day where you’re tired, you’re sore, your body’s aching, you didn’t get enough sleep, your diet didn’t line up. For whatever reason, you know you, you had a life happening outside of the gym. And then I remember like the main thing for me was sitting on the on the rower.

39:03 You know, it’s a very popular implement in Crossfit, and I remember like I, I hated it. You know, it was just because I knew what I was capable of doing on it. And I knew how far I could push the limits on it that I would look at. I’m like, [expletive], I don’t want to do this, but I’m like, You know, for the volume of rowing I usually did. It was between 20 and 30 minutes total with work and rest built in.

39:31 And like 20 minutes of my day, it’s nothing it’s over like that. It’s not even a full sitcom, and I’m like. But if you give your full effort right now, you push yourself to the absolute limit 18 20 minutes your day. That’s nothing for, you know, to have the results that I want to be having. So it was in those moments that I would look at that poster and like, I’m tired, I’m aching.

39:57 And you know, you’re like, you taste. You can taste the blood in your lungs, you taste copper pennies. And it’s just like, Okay, like, this is such a small window your day. But the results are going to last forever and ever myself as well. You know, it’s only a matter of time before somebody beats any record.

40:17 You know, every year it’s a coin flip. It’s is somebody going to beat your record, is somebody not going to beat your record? And so for myself, I’m like, it’s only a matter of time before somebody beats my records like I’m, I’m as I’m doing my career. I’m beating someone. Somebody else’s records that when I was starting were said, like, matter of fact, like these records will never be beaten.

40:40 It’s impossible to beat these records. And then when I did it, they’re saying the same thing about me, I’m like, No, no, it’s not true, it’s going to. It’s a coin flip every single year, there’s only two options. Either somebody beat the record or somebody didn’t. And but nobody can take away those gold medals, nobody can take away those, those achievements.

40:58 And so I made sure to try to not put too much weight on the these records. And just look at those. Those individual achievements of like, Okay, I did that, and I have that gold medal forever. You know, yeah, I love this concept of being proud of yourself, because, like you know, that’s something only, you know, deep down inside. Whether you can be proud of yourself, it’s no other metric someone can give you and no one can take that away from you.

41:24 And yet to get there, you have to push yourself more than you want to be pushed. I feel like it’s very underrated, I feel like it’s the sleep you get the night after accomplishing, or like pushing yourself to a limit that you didn’t think you could. It’s the best nice sleep you’ll ever have your head hits that pillow and you’re just so content. Like. I did everything I could today to be the person I want to be tomorrow.

41:53 And, yeah, I, you know, I. I remember doing that like, even with the little odd jobs I did as a teenager. You know, making sure that I was putting in an effort to make myself proud and it wasn’t always that way. I still. I still made mistakes, I still cut corners and then when I got called out for it, I was destroyed inside.

42:15 And it wasn’t the fact that I, I did a poor job on the project. It was the fact that I knew I was capable of doing a better job and I chose not to. I made that decision, you know, and I remember I remember that happening. Working a construction job, I was building, building a walkway through a swamp for a neighbor, and I cut some or I, I don’t know, I, I was young, I think I was like, 17, 18 or something, you know? I was still full of piss and vinegar and didn’t know a good work ethic yet.

42:47 And the walkway just had a bit of a bit of a sway to as it went through and I got called out for it and it was. It was a mistake that was so big that I couldn’t go back and fix it. You know it, and it still eats me up. And for years it was a neighbor to my grandmother, so anytime I went to visit my grandmother, I had to look at that [expletive] walkway. And it’s just like, next time I have that opportunity to do a project like that, I won’t make that same mistake twice.

43:15 Yeah, and then did the same thing when I went to College of, you know, failed some exams because I cut corners. Or, you know, did a terrible job on a project. And because I cut corners, same thing happened in my Crossfit career, you know, my 2015 season, my second season, I got second place for the second time. Yeah, let’s talk about that. And 14, you got second place and you were over the moon, yeah, 15, you got second place and you couldn’t have been more disappointed in yourself.

43:37 I was down, down, down, down. Yeah, so rookie year, you know, I was brand new to Crossfit. I barely knew what was what was going on, I didn’t know what to expect, going to the Crossfit Games. And I was just flying by the seat of my pants and having a good ass, time doing it. You know, it was so much fun.

43:54 And then the weekend ends and like, Oh, [expletive]. I’m on the podium and I’m looking at like, I’m looking at the prize money. I just, I just won. I’m like, This is life-changing, I’m set and like it was, it’s a good chunk of money. I think it was like 75 grand, great chunk of money.

44:14 Yeah, it’s not life-changing in most aspects, but then, you know, so the guy in first place retired. I was in second place and I’m like, I’m a shoe-in, I got it. Hey, I cut. If there was a corner, I cut it and, you know, my diet was trash. My training was inconsistent.

44:36 It wasn’t, Oh no, like a plan. I just walked into the gym, do whatever I felt like that day. You know, my personal life wasn’t the greatest, you know, I was just. I was all over the place because you hadn’t dialed all your engineering lessons into your physical training. Yes, no, no, I was still in college, I was still in still in university full time.

44:55 Okay, and that’s a year you have a year between these games. That’s another thing that’s like, hard for people to conceive of. I mean, you had to really stay consistent. Well, so the Games are you usually, you know, beginning of August, and but the season starts most years in February, the qualifying procedures to go through. And if and if you’re in terrible shape in February and don’t make it through the first level of qualifying, your season’s done.

45:25 Okay, so you have to be in good enough shape in February to, you know, hit your, you know, top 10 percent of the. I think when I was competing, they took, you know? However, many regions that were around the world, there were 17 regions around the world and they took the top 30 or 40 from each region. And, you know, so you have to make sure you’re hitting that threshold, and then from there they take some years. It was the top three, some years, it was the top five from there and you know, those competitions happen usually around May.

45:58 I think it was. So. You need to be in good enough shape in February, good enough shape in May and then good enough shape in August. So it’s like you have to stay fit for a long, long period of the year. It’s not just showing up in August.

46:10 So, you know, for myself. I would take one month off after the Games every year and then boom right back in, getting right back into it. And okay. But in 15 you cut corners, 15 cut corners. You know, diet was terrible, you know, I didn’t ask you about it at some point.

46:24 But diet, personal life, training, just everything non-consistent. Yeah, and then the guy who won he was, you know, one of the most seasoned athletes, you know? So he had a ton of experience and he had a phenomenal performance. You know, he was just consistent all the way through the competition. And then it literally came down to the last workout between he and I, who.

46:52 Whichever one of us won that workout just between the two of us, it didn’t, even. I don’t think it even mattered. We didn’t have to win the event. And then, you know, have the next person get middled a couple times. Even if he took 11th and I took 12th, he won the competition.

47:11 That’s how close we were in points and earlier in the in the competition. I believe I was up by over a hundred points. And so there’s, you know, 13 to 15 events, and they’re each 100 points available. So I was up by a huge margin and then there was one event where I was. My body was screaming.

47:34 And Ben was right there, you know, right by my side and I went, You know what, this really hurts. I’m going to throttle back, let him pass me, who cares? He’ll get six points on me. I’m up by 104, whatever it was, and I was just like, Ah, you know, have those couple points. You know, I’m gonna throttle back and, you know, feel good about myself right now.

47:58 And then, you know, coming into Event 13, 14, whatever it is the last event of the whole competition. I’m like, Man, I really wish I had those six points. Is that a lesson? Never to do that? Oh, 100, you know, so the year is following.

48:13 Even when I was up by a lot of points, I’m still fighting tooth and nail, even if I’m, you know, fighting for 20th place. And, you know, trying to go from 21st to 20th. And it’s only a two-point spread, whereas up at the top it’s like a six point spread, fighting tooth and nail for every point possible. And I was like, I don’t care if I’m in event one or Event 14, and I mathematically already have the event competition or the competition one. I’m fighting for every point possible, like the competition isn’t over.

48:46 Until that gold medal is around my neck, you know, so even in the final events where, you know, I’m, I think there. There are some years where I was up by over 200 points going into the final event. So it’s like, Yeah, you can just sit this one out and I’m like, events. Competition’s not over yet, and so it just makes you want to show everyone who you are as well. Yeah, show yourself who you are, that was it, you know.

49:12 Like the first year I won, I had the competition mathematically clinched before the final event. And then they put in a minimum work requirement. So for the event, you had to hit a certain amount of reps into the workout. They basically just don’t want you walking out and sitting down on the floor, twiddling your thumbs. And so I went out and I was like, Just hit.

49:32 The minimum work requirement don’t rush, because even if even if I don’t hit that minimum work, what if I slip and fall and break my ankle? What if I slip and break my wrist? And then I can’t hit that minimum work? Well, it doesn’t matter the reasoning. You didn’t hit it, you’re done, and so I went out and I was like, Just be nice controlled.

49:55 Put your stamp on the event, hit the minimum work requirement and then you can celebrate. And I remember I hit the minimum work requirement and I just went [expletive]. This like this isn’t what I’m capable of. I want to, you know, I want to make myself proud. I don’t want to end on this kind of slow poke pace.

50:12 I want to. I want to go out still swinging for the fences. And so you know that, you know, those experiences from early on in my career completely molded me towards the end of the career of like, you know, just don’t cut any corner. It’s either you do it right or you do it again, you don’t sacrifice a single point. It doesn’t matter like it doesn’t matter.

50:36 If you’re fighting for two points from down here on the leaderboard or way up here on the leaderboard, those two points are still as valuable. So, you know, little things like that, but you take enough of those little things like you accumulate them all up and it’s going to make a big difference. It’s a beautiful concept, man, you give me all these flashbacks men. Today in my life. I remember I was on the cycling in Chattanooga, Tennessee, on the Ironman 70.3.

51:00 And again, it’s my first one and I’m cycling and I’m just on the swim and I’m cycling and I’m getting on the pace. We’re going on the countryside and I’m, I’m with a group of guys. And they got the tattoos on their calves, with the eyes on them. And I’m like, Okay, these guys that have been in these elements, but we’re cycling along. And I was like, I was like, This is some [expletive], I can go faster than this.

51:19 Yeah, I was like, [expletive] this, I’m just gonna [expletive] go. And I started passing them all, passing them all past them all. I was just like, She’s made me angry, that I was just gonna be here and felt like I still had some in the tank. And even though I knew I would pay for it and I did pay for it on the run, I was just. I just made me angry that I was gonna not take every advantage to just push it.

51:39 And even though I, I was like, with guys that have clearly done full Iron Man, I was just like, No, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna go for it. Yeah, I don’t know, it’s just like, I don’t know, it’s a different. It’s like a human thing. It’s almost like, Tell me if I’m wrong here. Is this an appreciation for life?

51:54 Somehow that we have like one chance to be here on this Earth, we have one chance to do this thing that no one’s ever going to see. And in some way, in a weird way, we might maybe honoring the fact that we have this body and this chance of being the best, just for the sake of being the best. So I, I, you know, I think it’s not even about being the best in the world. Yeah, it’s just being the best as to you. Best you.

52:20 And it sounds so corny and I know exactly how it sounds. But when you dive into it, it’s like you have one. Go at this [expletive] thing and you mean life? Yeah, and I mean, and a lot of opportunities too of, and one you know, it’s. I know the things that keep me up at night are thinking, like, God, I should have done this, I should have done that.

52:44 Or, you know, like everyone has it like when somebody’s rude to them or they’re in an argument, then that night, they’re like, Oh, I should have said this, or I should have said that, and it’s like, Yeah, you’re regretting, not, you know, attacking that situation better and it takes a lot of life experience. And you’re going to fail a lot. And you look at the most successful people in the world, you know, it’s you look at the stories of, like, Elon Musk of, you know, whatever he got fired from this job, this company failed, whatever it is. Well, no one criticizes them for that stuff. Now they look at him like, Oh my God, you created this incredible thing in the moment.

53:29 When you’re failing you, you think you’ll never get back up, you think you’ll never have another opportunity, you’ll think you, you. There’s no coming back from this. I’m down and I’m going to stay down forever. But then when you see the stories of other people that like they were working the crappy job, or, you know, they were homeless for a little while, they got fired. Their wife let whatever it is.

53:51 Well, that’s motivating, and but it’s hard to realize that you’re in that inspirational moment. You have the opportunity to make an incredibly inspiring story. You just have to keep chugging. Even when you’re hopeless. You have to keep grinding and pretending like you’re in the ideal situation when everything’s going wrong and it’s really, really hard.

54:12 And I, I still have those moments. I still have those moments where you get criticized or, you know, something bad happens, or whatever it is like, I’m never going to recover from this. This is never going to get better. But then you know whether it’s a month later or a year later, you’re looking back, you’re like, Oh, that little inconvenience that I that I had. That was nothing but in the moment you feel hopeless.

54:37 But it’s just having that self-confidence to keep doing the right thing. Even when nobody’s cheering you on, nobody’s patting you on the back, nobody’s giving you compliments you, you feel like you’re getting the opposite, you feel like you’re getting kicked while you’re down. But it’s just having that confidence that this too shall pass and that next opportunity is going to be worthless if I’m not prepared for it. So it’s just always, always, just keep doing the right thing. Because I know I’m going to feel good about it and it’s going to help everyone around me.

55:10 This is crucial because the reason you got those five titles is because of your mindset at the end of the day. So all right, 15 happens, you get second. You’re kind of devastated. What happens between 15 and 16 where you get the win for the first time, like what? So because I had cut so many different corners throughout that entire season, I’m going back and I’m analyzing.

55:35 What was the straw that broke the camel’s back? What was the last fork in the road? The last deciding factor of if you make this choice, you’ll squeak out the win. If you make this choice, you’ll lose by a hair. And I’m just racking my brain on what if like, was it?

55:55 My sleep was it? My diet was it? My training was it, My training environment was my homeland. What was it, what was the deciding factor? What if, what, if, what, if?

56:04 And I went. I just realized, like, Who knows? There’s no way to know, because I can’t rewind time and try doing all the same actions. But having a healthier diet, I can’t go back and do all the same things but have better sleep. And so I, I just went like, I’m not going to have a what if like.

56:26 And once again, in the grand scheme of life, one year goes by like that, and you know, if you’re, if you’re if you’re entertained. If you’re working, all this stuff a year can click by before you know it. And so I, I just I, I couldn’t handle the what if anymore. And so I just went all right for one year and it wasn’t even a full year for one season. So, you know, nine months, probably.

56:55 I was like, I’m not going to leave a single thing to What if I’m? Every decision is going to be determined by this one singular goal of I want to win the Crossfit Games and so everything is a decision. Everything has a fork in the road, whether that fork is a hard left and a hard right of like, Hey, this is going to be immediate failure or immediate success. Or if it’s just like this little one percent spread. It doesn’t matter how drastic it is.

57:28 Every decision is either bringing you closer to your goal or pulling you further away. And I just. I just made the decision that for one year I’m not going to, I’m not going to sacrifice the slightest decision. So even down to things you know, so like the big things of, you know, not traveling. While I’m training in season, trying to dial in my diet and my nutrition as perfectly as possible.

57:54 Having the best sleeping conditions possible so that I get the perfect night’s sleep every single time, the same wake up time and bedtime every single night. Whether I’m, you know, a rest day or a hard training day. I want my body to know exactly what I’m walking in with to the gym every single day. So whether it’s those big decisions down to the little, the tiny, tiny choices of How do I cut my hair? What’s the best haircut for my performance, you know?

58:28 And so for me, like I, one of my biggest problems was overheating while training. You know, I just run incredibly hot, and so I was like, I, I can tell when I when I have. When I had a big beard in training or I had long hair and training, it was just. It made my body a little bit warmer. And so I just for years zoop, just buzz cut.

58:50 And then also, I didn’t have to schedule appointments to go get a haircut. I didn’t have to spend money, I didn’t have to take time out of my day to go get a haircut. I didn’t have to worry about doing my hair in the morning, my outfits, when I found a pair of pants that I like to train in. I bought 10., and, you know, my, my sock drawer was, I think I think I had 80 pairs of black tube socks, all identical so that in the morning it was one less decision I had to make of. I just went, I’m five drawers and I would just grab one item out of every drawer boom and I know this.

59:25 This outfit is going to suit what I have to do during the day. And I don’t have to waste any time or energy or be concerned about fashion. Nothing so whether it’s these big decisions of like, Hey, am I gonna get four hours of sleep or ten hours of sleep down to? Nope, every once every two weeks, I take a number one clipper full head beard boom done. And I was like, All right, it’s nine months of my life, even if I do all of this, and I and I pull out like a 10th place finish, I’m gonna know I.

59:59 I earned that 10th place finish and I hope that if I do all of these things, I’ll be proud of myself, no matter what the results are. And then, you know, did that for an entire season. And thankfully, you know, the people in my life are very supportive. They knew what my goals were, so there wasn’t much pressure from friends or family to, you know, come on, man, it’s Friday night, take the night off, let’s go harder to be around those nine months. Or maybe you felt better about it.

1:00:30 No, I mean, my best friend at the time was my training partner and Sammy worked in the Crossfit space? She worked for Reebok, and so she knew what the top level competitors do on a day-to-day basis. And so, you know, she the most understanding girlfriend there ever was, you know, like months before the competition, or, you know, a couple months before the competition. So she lived in Rhode Island at the time, and I lived in Vermont. And every other weekend one of us would do the drive.

1:01:03 And so we’re seeing each other every other weekend, but we only have to do the drive once a month. And I remember saying, probably two months before a competition like, Sorry, I can’t, I can’t come to you anymore until the competition is over. Because four hours sitting in a car and then I’m sleeping on a mattress that isn’t mine, I’m sleeping in a room that isn’t at my ideal temperature. I’m not training in my gym, all these little things, that what it made of difference, who knows? But I wasn’t real, I wasn’t willing to take that chance and I did that for nine months.

1:01:35 And then so that going into the 2016 season, it was my first Crossfit Games win and then I broke the record for the largest margin of victory. You know, I won by more points than anyone had ever won by it before, and I just went, Oh, all right, you know, I did. This made these decisions for nine months, and I then I got these results and I was like, I like how that felt. Let’s do it again and then going more extreme every single time of how can I ever find this even more and more and more? And, you know, just kind of using as many resources I can to become as knowledgeable as I could of, you know, I need to get better at deadlifting.

1:02:15 All right, let’s look up who owns Deadlift World Records and just start DMing them. And the worst thing that happens is they open it, they read it, you see that they saw it, and then you get no response. You know, that’s the worst that can happen. It hurt, it, stings for like two minutes and you’re like, Ah, on to the next one, wow, so you just dialed it in right after that. Yeah, and you know, and you know, once you have more wins you now you have more resources.

1:02:42 And you know, it just kind of compounds over and over. And to the point that you know you, you build out a home gym that you’re like, I don’t have to leave my house anymore. I and I, you know, I was spoiled with Sammy, you know, Sammy, you know, Quitter job and was we? We moved in together and then she found a passion for cooking and nutrition, and now she’s famous for, Yeah, so you know, she’s a crossfit cook. Yeah, so you know, she runs, runs an Instagram page called Feeding the Phrasers, and I think she’s edging up towards a half million followers on it.

1:03:15 She wrote a cookbook, and but you know, she’s at home all day, every day, just cooking, and so it’s for me. It’s like it felt like a cheat code. I’d be driving home from the gym and, you know, it’s a 10 minute door. -to-door. And I would just text like on my way home and I’d walk in the door and there’s a plate of food.

1:03:33 And we’re most athletes are either having to have, you know, the meal delivery services. And it’s like, you know, once those sit in the fridge for a week, they start tasting a little funny. Or you’re just getting tired of it. So now it’s affecting your morale and your excitement for your nutrition. So maybe you’re not eating the best stuff for you because you’re like, Oh, I need something that tastes good and you’re having to prepare it yourself.

1:04:00 And so it’s like, you know, you’re taking the 20 30 minutes to prepare your meal, so now you’re not eating it as close to training as possible. So, you know, I had these things in my life that as I got more success in the space, I had more resources. And it was just this vicious wheel of having my life set up, absolutely in the ideal scenario for what I was doing for a career. And it was just. I woke up and competed, you know, I trained and competed, and that was it now.

1:04:31 My business partner was my manager and agent from way early on, he handled everything on the business side. Sammy handled everything on the home life side. So I had just about zero responsibilities other than training and competing. And so, you know, it was, it was it never lost its value on me. I always real.

1:04:57 Every morning I woke up and just went, all right, this is awesome, you know, I set my life up in this way, so don’t waste it. And is that the recipe of your success for five years, I think, and your mentality? I, you know, trying, trying to pin it down to that. Everyone must have asked you, I mean, this is a phenomenon you, you know, it’s a very serious, you know, industry. It’s a it has a massive cult following and we’ll talk about that.

1:05:23 And now you’re in there, winning by massive margins, undefeated five years in a row to a competition that’s random. Every year. Everyone must have been asking you or asking, How does he do it, how does he do it? Yeah, you know, and you know, a lot of people want the magic wand they want, the they’re like, What’s your secret, what’s your secret? I’m like, there is no secret, you know, it’s everything I do is very public.

1:05:46 And out in the open for, for the most part, during competition, you’d like to keep some things quiet. Yeah, I mean, my like my, my main thing was just my training, what I would do on a day. -to-day basis. I kept those cards very close to my chest because I, I knew I trained very, very differently than most people. And I found it to be a huge benefit differently.

1:06:10 For a large majority of the season. I would train single modality. So, you know, like the typical Crossfit Metcon, like the Crossfit wad workouts of the day, they usually take between how long. Oh, I mean, 10 minutes to an hour, or, oh, I mean, you have some workouts that are 30 seconds, you have some that are three hours. You know, it’s anything and everything in between, but, you know, just mixing up movements, you know, like you have your couplets, triplets, where it’s like two movements back and forth, or three movements.

1:06:42 Or a chipper where you’re just going through this whole. This one long thing one time through whatever it was. But I would take essence of Crossfit like, Are these wads? It’s the typical, like the workouts that when you think Crossfit, and that’s what you do when you compete most of the time. Are these couplets, triplets, chippers?

1:07:00 Whatever it was, I knew I trained very differently and I was. I was always willing to take steps backwards. Whether it was, you know, the intensity I was training at the, you know, just becoming a beginner again and working on the basics. And I think, and obviously I didn’t train with every single competitor, but like, from the few people I did, you know? I saw that in January or February.

1:07:29 I’m getting my ass kicked in the gym like, and because my fitness I always try to. You know, go in these waves of like, you’re building your base and then your peak taper and then boom right back down. You take a month off and then build your base peak table over and over and over. So my fitness level fluctuated drastically how my body looked through the season fluctuated drastically. Whereas I felt like the common theme was to just operate at peak performance, year round, year after year and to each their own.

1:08:02 Whatever you know, it was very, very mentally tough. You know, coming off a month off and then say, going through, you know, a strength phase of training. Where I’m packing on as much weight as possible, I’m. I did it once with deadlifting, where I basically just dead lifted. You know, my deadlift was my worst event the year prior.

1:08:23 And so going into that next season, I was like, That was my worst finish. I need to improve on that finish, that’s my number one priority. And so I got in contact with the guy who had, you know, a couple world championships under his belt and used him as a resource. And he was, you know, an incredible, incredible teacher. And so, you know, my body weight shot up, my body composition changed.

1:08:47 I wasn’t putting in the same time and effort into the other aspects of the sport. But I put 40 pounds on my deadlift in three months and I had already had a half day. I think my deadlift was five, about 500 at the time, so shooting it up to 540.. It’s a, you know, good amount of gain. And but then my first time sitting back on the rower and trying to push hit my old paces.

1:09:12 I’m like, Oh, [expletive], I lost it, I pushed it too far this year. And the perfect example is like there’s this one rowing workout where it’s a 500 meter on the rower. One minute rest, ten, ten rounds as basic and as common as it comes. And you have these workouts that you know what your personal records are, you know, you know, it’s a very. There’s not many variables that go into it.

1:09:36 And so you can kind of see where you chalk up to the last time you did it. And I remember I there’s one off season in my. My aerobic coach was in the in my garage with me and I added 10 seconds to my split times. And which is on? The concept to Rower is the difference of going Max effort to casual, basically.

1:10:03 And I added 10 seconds on my split time and I gave up after seven rounds. I couldn’t even get through the 10 rounds. And I’m just like, I’m tasting, I’m tasting blood in my lungs. It’s like I am rolling on the floor. And I remember walking inside the same as like, Hey, how was your workout?

1:10:19 And I went, I [expletive] up. I went too far like I pushed it too far. But then, sure enough, you know, you keep at it, you start seeing the progress. And not only was I able to, you know, go back to the basics and rebuild. But I’m getting re-motivated as well, because every year I’m seeing these personal records throughout the season of, you know, that rowing workout.

1:10:42 I think I was trying to hold like a 145 split pace, and I and I couldn’t. And then the next time I attempt to work out, you know, I’m hitting a, you know, 143 and then a 141 and then a 139 and then a 137. So I’m getting motivated, I can see the progress as I’m going through. I’m not just sitting stagnant at my absolute rev limiter the entire time. So you know things like that, but it.

1:11:10 There were times that it was tough mentally of. Like, you know, you pack on 20 pounds in the off season, you’re like, Holy [expletive] ring muscle ups just got a little bit more challenging. And so that single modality training you were doing and it was probably unlike any other, any other person, because even Crossfit itself is not about that. It’s about we go hard every day, we’re always in shape. I mean, constant, constantly varied and who knows that?

1:11:36 There may have been a whole slew of other athletes that were training the way I had been training. It just didn’t have, you know, the same results, but from the people that I had trained with, it was drastically different. And I, I had some buddies that I competed against that, you know, during the Open, you know, the first stage of the qualifier, my buddy Pat Valderrama, he’s perennial games athlete, one of the top ranked in the world, been on the podium. You know, a handful of times, you know, I remember we did an open workout together and he smoked me. And you know, it’s, we’re still buddies after, and it’s just like, Dude, great job.

1:12:18 That was a great workout, you executed perfectly and I was just sucking wind the whole time. Because it’s so early in the season. I’m not putting the emphasis on that quite yet. And I remember he made a comment to me. He’s like, It’s.

1:12:30 It’s infuriating because I know in two weeks you’re gonna both be back in shape and be kicking ass again. I was like, Yeah, like, hopefully, you know, that’s fingers crossed that, that’s what happens, but who knows? But you know, it’s because I always took a very aggressive off-season because it was just after a week. Your body’s back, your body’s all healed up from the games. But for me, it was the mental side of things I wanted to like.

1:12:56 Recharge the batteries. And I always wanted to push it to a level that I wanted to go back to training. You know, I made I intentionally. Eating trashy food for me is fun for a day, maybe two. But after that third day, you’re like, Oh my God, I just want, I want a vegetable, I don’t want.

1:13:17 I don’t want this junk food anymore, you know, staying up late and getting up early. Yeah, you can do it for a day or two, but after a while you start, you start feeling the long-term effects of it. And so it’s stuff like that, like I intentionally wouldn’t work out for longer than I wanted to. I intentionally would eat like trash for longer than I wanted to. I would intentionally stay up late for longer than I wanted to, so that when it came time to get back on that schedule, I was excited for it.

1:13:45 I was I. I wanted that routine back in my life, I wanted that diet like, and so all those things I wanted. I always wanted to make sure that I was enjoying and grateful for what I was doing, and sometimes I had to go to the other extreme to be grateful for. For that routine. It’s a good lesson, man, why stop at five, why not go for ten?

1:14:09 If you know, there were just too many other things that I wanted to do, you know, I, I loved, I loved my sports career and but even ahead of my crossfit career. So, you know, I had one season where I didn’t make it to the Games. And then I had seven consecutive seasons where I went to the Games and was on the podium, but prior to that I was a competitive weightlifter. I did Olympic weightlifting for 10 years. I started at 12 years old the day I graduated high school, moved to the Olympic Training Center.

1:14:44 You know, went through a severe injury, broke my L5 in two spots, got that bolted back together, continued my weight lifter career for another year, so I’ve had a I’ve been competing in a sport and a high impact sport since I was 12 years old. I had so much of my life on hold because of the because of those that I. I was just like I did what I wanted to do in the sports world or like in the competition side of things. And there was just too many opportunities that I always said no to, because I knew it would distract me from pursuing the wins. And so, you know, I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish, you know, whether it was, you know, I.

1:15:32 I had a handful of records by the time I finished, but then I was just like, Okay, it’s time for something else. And a big part of it, too, was when I’m putting my life on hold. It’s not just my life. I’m not just sacrificing those vacations or those family events or those parties. Whatever it is, it’s not just me sacrificing it, it’s Sammy as well.

1:15:53 Sammy’s attached to my hip, going along for the ride. And so for her, you know, having to explain to her to her family like, We can’t make it to family Christmas. Matt has to go to Dubai because he has a qualifier that he has to has to compete in. It wasn’t just me putting my life on hold. It’s, you know, Sam is right there by my side.

1:16:12 Matt O’Keefe is right there by my side doing giving all those same sacrifices. And then, you know, intentionally like, Nope, we’re not gonna get I. I don’t want to get married while I’m competing, I don’t want to have kids while I’m keep competing because it will distract me from my end,-all be-all goal and, you know, I just had so many opportunities I was so excited for. I had accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish on the competitive side, and the big part, too, was I just. I was like, I feel like I was meant for more.

1:16:47 I feel like I’m capable of accomplishing so many more things as well. And I was like, You know, I did. I did what I came to do on the competitive side, and now it’s Let’s one. I want to pursue these other goals and achievements, whatever they are. But then two, I don’t want to be selfish anymore.

1:17:10 You know, like when I was training and competing I, I like training by myself because I didn’t have to wait on anyone else’s schedule. I didn’t have to share equipment, I didn’t have to anything, I didn’t have to take anyone else’s feelings or anything into consideration. I had. I did exactly what I needed to do to have the best performance possible, and I wanted. I wanted to share, share more time and I wanted to share my life with Sammy.

1:17:39 I wanted to, you know, you know, give back to other people that want us to compete. I wanted to see if I could help them. I wanted to, you know, travel the world and visit more gyms or competitions, and, you know, I wanted that side of things again. And you know that’s what we’re doing. I’m kind of that makes sense, man, that makes sense.

1:18:00 I’m listening to you, and it reminds me a lot of when I’ve had conversations with Dorian Yates. You know, he won six-time, Mr. Olympia and he, he had a similar mentality to you back in the day. I guess it was his early 90s, where he just he just cut everything out of his life. You know, it was early bad times, there was no family around, It was him walking two miles through the snow to open up the basement and lift in the morning. Knowing that he was the only guy doing that, yeah, he was in Birmingham.

1:18:28 All the other guys were out in Venice Beach, you know, posing and stuff, and he would just not say anything. Nobody knew he was the shadow, yeah, and no one knew what he was doing and we would just get there. And then people were just like, What the hell is going on? Yeah, but you know, that could only last so long, and also for him, it would. Injuries happened as well.

1:18:45 And so maybe you can only be singly focused like that for so long. Yeah, and you know, who knows, you know, once again, I didn’t do it any other way, so I don’t know, you know, what was I sacrificing all the like could have. I was it not fun that last year, No. Well, I mean, the last year competing was incredibly stressful because it was during the COVID. And so you know.

1:19:13 So the Games kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed because they wouldn’t allow the group gathering and they didn’t know. Didn’t know what Covet was quite yet. Or, you know, whatever you know, like the N.B.A. was shut down. You know, we have a fraction of the resources. But so it kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed, which was really, really tough.

1:19:39 Because I’m on a very regimented taper and peaking cycle, especially with weight lifting. You know you’re tapering to, you know, go for those, one, Rep Maxes, right before you compete and you know, you’re coming into those last couple weeks where you’re getting into the 90 95 loads and then up. We’re delaying it three weeks and you’re like, [expletive] Well, what do I do, do I do? I hit my peak and then try to maintain it. Or do I take a three week jump backwards in my training and just do it on repeat?

1:20:13 I think the Games got delayed maybe three times, you know, a couple weeks a piece, don’t, don’t quote me on that number, but. But then they did the Games in two sections, so they did an online version where they released all the workouts. Crossfit sent a ref out and Rogue sent equipment out to every athlete. So everyone had the same bars they would use in competition, the same bumper plates, the same reffing standards, everything and then they. They gave you a floor plan that you had to abide by, so if you had to reconfigure your gym.

1:20:50 But it was just so that everyone had the exact same things, so, you know, doing something like doing that. And then they took the top five top five men, top five women. And then it was a small enough group that we were able to have an in-person competition. But I think that season got delayed out, so it was like, basically like a 14-month season. So, you know, that was really, really mentally hard, because I knew it was my final year.

1:21:21 I knew I was retiring after that competition. And then you’re playing this, this mind game of What if the competition doesn’t happen? Do I do another year of this, you know? And so I. I tried retiring in 2019, I was retired for maybe like, four days, like there was no announcement or that.

1:21:43 I told the people that were close to me and then I got. I got talked out of it by O’Keefe, and so I was like, Okay, I’ll do one. I’ll do this one more time, and then you know, it’s that one. More time happens and then the competition might not come together. And you’re like, Holy [expletive].

1:22:02 I just did that whole year of training for nothing like, Am I going to do it again? And so it’s just that uncertainty of not knowing what’s going to happen. But I’m glad I stayed in it. I’m glad I’m glad Crossfit, you know, put in the extra time, effort and resources to make that competition happen and tell me a little bit about CrossFit. If I, if some Martian landed on this planet and you had to explain what CrossFit is to this alien species, what would you tell them?

1:22:32 It is? Is it A Is it a cult, Is it a exercise system? What is Crossfit? Yeah, you know, I think it’s, you know, just a exercise methodology that, you know, is a little bit probably a little bit more involved than most others. And I think a very important distinction is what I did at the CrossFit Games.

1:22:55 And what somebody will see when they walk into an affiliate are drastically different. You know, it’s I, I always said. I think it’s a little bit unfortunate that they are, that they have the same name. Because I, I’ve had friends, you know, watch, watch me compete, and they’re like, Dude, I would. I would love to join CrossFit, but I can’t do what you do.

1:23:18 So I’m not going to go. And I’m like, Oh my God, like, that’s the worst reason, you know, like what you’re seeing me do on the competition floor is not what you’re going to see at your local affiliate, but it’s a, you know, one hour start to finish. Hopefully, your affiliate takes you through a warm-up. You know, strength, conditioning, workout, whatever piece it is, and then a cool down. And it’s just a hopefully what?

1:23:47 What you’re getting in your affiliate is just a well-rounded, you know, functional fitness workout routine that’s constantly varied, but yeah, it’s one hour start to finish. Your gym has a coach that’s going to take you through. Hopefully show you how to move properly and how to approach the workout properly. And I think most gyms, you know, it’s a. It’s a pretty good investment to, in terms of equipment alone to open up a gym.

1:24:12 So hopefully, you know, the affiliate owners and the coaches are, are, you know, taking that responsibility seriously? Because you’re affecting people’s lives, you have the opportunity to change somebody’s life. And I know how intimidated I was my first day walking into a gym. I was 12 years old and I was terrified. You know, everyone else knew what all the movements were, where the equipment was, all this stuff.

1:24:41 I had that when I was 12 when I walked into my first weight room and then I had it again when I was 22. And I walked into my first crossfit. You know, you’re seeing all these acronyms on the wall and different movements and whatever it was. And I’m like, How does everyone know what everything is? And like?

1:24:56 Everyone already knows each other, and you know, it’s incredibly intimidating. But it’s like, once you realize that everyone in this gym had their first day, at some point, nobody came in knowing what all this stuff was. So it’s like, All right, put your pride and ego aside, ask plenty of questions, and you’re going to get a kick. -ass workout out of it. What’s the culture of Crossfit?

1:25:16 Because in what aspect? I don’t know. It has people in there that are just so into it like that. Like, I just see people that get really hardcore about Crossfit, they love posting their wads. I mean, like every sport brings a culture alongside of it, right?

1:25:30 So I think or gymnastics or so obviously I can’t. I can’t speak to anyone else’s experience, but I know for myself I got hooked because there’s so many things to work on. There’s so many different modalities. There’s so many different movements that you can constantly be improving on something, so there’s so many different movements that you know, it’s, you know, you can see progress, especially early on, almost on a daily basis, like, Oh, today. I got my first handstand push-up today, I got my first ring muscle, my first squat set, and then PR.

1:26:11 As I’m like, Oh, now I got two now I got three reps, now I got four reps. Oh, I went a little bit faster. So you get this daily dose of gratification of progressing and bettering yourself. And you. And then you know if you’re seeing, especially if you’re seeing the body change.

1:26:27 And then I, I know another big, big thing for me. That was the big appeal was making new friends, you know, so I. I had stepped away from competitive weightlifting I had enrolled in university full time, and, you know, I didn’t drink. I was a couple years older than everyone else in my class, I didn’t live on campus and so I was a young adult. I’m like, How the [expletive] do I make friends like I’m in high school?

1:26:57 You’re spoiled, you’re just plopped in a room with 30 other kids, your age. And then in the weightlifting. You know, I have the people in the weight room. And but then as a young adult, that I’m like, Ah, I don’t quite fit in with the college crowd. Because, you know, they’re all 18.

1:27:12 It’s their first time living away from home, they’re living in dorms and partying. I’m 22, 23 years old, living at home, I don’t drink, I don’t party like. So for myself it was. It was a really, really hard struggle of How do I make friends as an adult? I honestly was lost and I was in a very, very low place.

1:27:35 And so showing up to the gym and finding other like-minded people was an absolute game changer for me. There was specifically a group of four, four other, you know, young men, that I that I met, that went to the same university as me. And in most cases, how you do anything, it’s how you do everything you know. If you, if you’re driven towards push, finding your limits physically, you’re probably more likely to find your limits mentally in all these different avenues. And so for me, the big appeal immediately was the people of just being like, Okay, I’m not alone in this world, I have friends.

1:28:18 And then once you get more and more familiar with CrossFit, you start seeing the progressions. And then I got into competing so that gave that, you know, scratched that competitive itch. It just kind of snowballed so quickly, but, yeah, I’m willing to bet, you know, it’s probably equal parts. The appeal to going to a good affiliate is probably half physical and half just community based. Yeah, yeah, I see them.

1:28:47 I’ve had Tim Kennedy on the show before, a famous MMA guy and Green Beret, and he’s always posting his wads. And it’s always the same buddies. Yeah, after it, and you know, and I follow some people on IG. and you can see it’s just like there’s a real community there that gets built around the intensity of what happens. Yeah, and it brows a certain type of person there at a certain type of camaraderie. Yeah, and it shows, I mean, it was so cool this year, like, like, for myself, you know, I train by myself so much and a lot of times I, I love that.

1:29:22 But now I’m, I’m coaching, coaching a young lady, and during the Open, you know, we would. My. My home gym isn’t suitable for certain workouts, so we go to a local affiliate. And it was. It was unbelievable seeing the turnout, you know, and, you know, it’s cool for this gym.

1:29:48 They get to see Mal training and so they and then when they watch her at competition, you know you have they, they. You have that support system now and, you know, showing up for an open workout. And then there’s a hundred of a hundred gym members that are there to cheer her on. And it’s like, Oh my God, this is this is beautiful. And then when she, when she went to the Games and like she like that, this girl, Mallory O’Brien, she’s not.

1:30:18 She’s training at my house every day like she’s not going to an affiliate and taking classes. But this gym watched her go through the Open quarterfinals, semi-finals, and then now they’re watching her go to the game. So they’ve all met her, they’ve all seen her performing all this stuff. And they posted a picture the day before the game started. And I, it was like just about every member at that gym bought her jersey.

1:30:46 And then they all they all a took the time to coordinate to all buy the jerseys, which no small feat coordinating. You know, 70, 80 people, and then they all. They all took the time and effort to come together to take a group picture, all wearing their jerseys. To wish her good luck and no exaggeration, I brought a tear to my eye. I’m like, You, people owe nothing to this girl like you’ve watched her, watched her compete and like, she’s been to your gym and all this stuff.

1:31:17 But she now has the support of that entire affiliate. And it was, it’s just incredible, you know, seeing that. And, and, you know, any party I go to now, it’s all the people at the party are from my home gym that’s where my entire network of friends is from. I could say that our the performance enhancing drugs and steroids and issuing CrossFit or Crossfit games. And is it more so than any other sport that doesn’t like?

1:31:50 Officially test for those things? So it’s been a thing, it’s not crazy, but there have been there have been, you know, obviously positive tests. More times than not. It’s not at the Crossfit games we’ve had one instance where one person that was on the podium tested positive, other. But when?

1:32:21 When that happened, that was the first and I don’t think it’s happened since. Most of the positive tests come from the next level. Down of the level of athlete. That isn’t quite there yet and just has themselves convinced that, oh, everyone up there is doing it. So this is what I have to do to get to that next level, but with any sport.

1:32:47 The more popular it gets, the more sponsors that come in, the more sponsors that come in, the more money that’s available. And now the more tempting it is to do those things. So, you know, we see the reports, the releases of, you know, it’s a first offense is usually typically a four-year ban. So they’re becoming more and more popular as especially as they start testing more and more often. They’re doing that.

1:33:16 They’re testing now, they’re, they’re not just testing at the top level of the competition they’re testing at, there is some out of competition testing. It’s not the greatest they give you 24 hours notice for out of for a random drug test. And I remember the first time I found that out I was livid, I was like, because I was. I remember seeing, like, especially seeing the physique of so many of the top competitors. You’re just like, Jesus, look at you, it’s just like you’re like a sculpture, and then it’s the easiest thing to just go, Oh, you must be cheating, you know that’s why I don’t look like you.

1:33:56 It’s because you’re cheating, you know, it’s a way to make you feel a little bit better about yourself. But yeah, I remember the first time I got called, You know, it was like, Hey, you know, this is drug free sport. Your name got selected for a random out of competition drug test, and I was used to USADA from the weightlifting world where you’re. You have to enroll in the No Advance Notice program, so you have to give one hour of every single day where you will be guaranteed. And they show up with no announcement.

1:34:28 And then you have to supply, either urine or blood sample, and so for drug free sport. It was, Yeah, I remember getting the call and they said that, and I was like, Perfect. I’m at the address that I listed on my on my drug testing form. Doors unlock. Just come on in, and they were like, We no, we’ll be there tomorrow.

1:34:52 I was like, Excuse me like you, you’re giving 24 hours notice, like, Why in the world would you do that? But it’s just all. It’s just about resources, you know. But they’re being much more diligent about doing random drug tests during the competition, not just at the end of the competition. Because there’s so many drugs that the half-Life is so short that you can literally take it before the event starts.

1:35:16 And it’s clear within a couple hours. And what are your thoughts on that? Because the UFC has this, we’re going to be a clean sport. But then if you just saw Abu Dhabi competition in Vegas, they don’t test there. And the guys openly joke.

1:35:29 You know, like Gordon Ryan, that I’m just crazy, crazy on crazy juice, and they get these big of men. Yeah, it’s kind of an open secret. And sometimes they joke openly about, Oh, I thought I thought UFC was on USADA, UFC is on you said that no Abu Dhabi, the Jujitsu competitions are, Oh, okay, so these are these two options. So, like U.F.C. is all you saw in hardcore. And then you look at jiu jitsu and it’s not, and you know, these guys that are like, it’s they almost.

1:35:54 They openly joke that we’re all just really heavy. Oh, I didn’t realize I’m getting massive muscle mass. And you look at Abu Dhabi, and they’re like these massive dudes, and that’s how they compete. And then everyone can do that, and you get this great level of jiu jitsu. Obviously people want to punch people in the heads.

1:36:08 There’s not concussion issues. Yeah, like it’s. It’s a weird way to look at it where it’s like, Okay, you know, maybe in the future there are sports where it’s not tested, maybe there’s when they are tested. I don’t know about that. So, like the one that jumps, you know, top of mind is power lifting.

1:36:25 There’s so many different federations, but the main, the one. The main thing that I’m aware of is the discrepancy between tested and non-tested. And I remember talking to some people that were involved in the powerlifting world. And they said, They’re like, Oh. There are clean competitors that compete in the non-tested divisions, but nine times out of ten, if you’re in the non-tested, it’s for that specific reason.

1:36:52 And so I think with something like jiu jitsu like. Hopefully there are competitions that are tested and are clean for the person that doesn’t want to go down that avenue. I’ve always said, I’m like, What you do in your personal life, that’s your business. As long as you aren’t hurting anyone around, you do whatever you want. I don’t care like, Who am I to dictate your actions?

1:37:22 But as soon as you sign up for a competition and you’re, you’re telling people I am clean, I agree to be clean. Well, now you’re cheating now that now you’re an [expletive] because you’re lying to everyone. So like, If somebody just wants to get Jack and jacked and ripped, and, you know, just see what their body’s capable of. Or what. Whatever you’re looking for have at it as long as you’re not hurting anyone.

1:37:50 But the rules are in place for a reason. Do you have the mentality like the Nick Diaz Nate Diaz mentality is, you know, I don’t care what you take, I’m gonna beat you anyways. Did you have that mentality ever? And crossfit when that would come in your mind? And you’re like, I got the style, then you can [expletive] take whatever you want, it doesn’t matter.

1:38:08 Yeah, so. So the only time there’s been a positive test at the Crossfit Games. I had gotten first place and I believe the gentleman got third. Yeah, yeah, he yeah. He had gotten third because he bumped my Buddy Velner off the podium.

1:38:28 And, you know, you get all this noise around it of, you know, when he’s in his suspension and you know, you’re here and hearing all this [expletive] talking of like, Oh, Ricky’s gonna beat you, and it’s like, like, Dude, when he was juiced up, I beat him. You know, like, What leg do you have to stand on here? You know, I think I think I think it’s disappointing. You know, that I think the biggest disappointment of that example was that Pat Velner didn’t get to be on the podium. You know, he robbed that, that opportunity to Pat.

1:39:06 To celebrate that night, I, I somehow the article got sent to me about the positive test from the competition. I somehow was the first one to contact my buddy Pat. I just said, Congratulations, man, so happy for you, like, glad it happened, and he replied back, Yeah, congratulations to you too. What are we? Congratulate each other over?

1:39:30 And I was like, Dude, third place got popped like you got third place, and he was just like, Wow, that sucks. I was like, what do you mean? That sucks like? You just got the prize money, you’re gonna get the medals, and he’s like, Yeah, whatever he’s like. I didn’t get that moment on the podium with my family, and I was like, Oof, never thought about that.

1:39:49 You know, and something like, You never go back and you never rewind that and have it, you know, that’s a real bummer. I mean, like your whole game is all about this mental strength and going every to every instant. Do you think that if some guys go that route and they take PEDS that somehow, maybe they’re robbing themselves of something they could have done on their own? And then by doing that, they kind of play this weird confidence game with themselves. You know, thinking, Oh, I need that now, I can’t do it on my own.

1:40:18 I always wonder about that. I mean, I’m sure that has to be right. A huge mental swing. If you were on it and then came off and then you just see your performance tank like I’ve. I’ve talked to some buddies that competed in, you know, bodybuilding type stuff.

1:40:38 Or, you know, figure competitions, whether where they’re scored on how they look. And I remember the one guy he said he, he said He did one cycle and he was like, Dude, it was awesome. He was like, I can. He was telling me he was like, in Peak shape I can incline Dumbbell Bench 100-pound dumbbells for like a set of eight. He was like within weeks of starting my cycle, he was like, I was incline dumbbell benching 160s for multiple reps multiple sets.

1:41:10 He was like, I couldn’t fathom it, he’s like, it was wild. But then he said, he said it [expletive] up his body so terribly that he was like, I am never touching it again. And then he. He still was competing, he was still competing in his figure competitions and he was like one. My body took so long to rebalance out.

1:41:34 And but then he’s like going back to the gym and picking up those the hundred pounders again and struggling with him. He was like, Oh, it was a mind. [expletive] so I have to imagine, and yeah, I think it’s a bummer. It’s inevitable any time you put a dollar value on something. There’s going to be people out there that are going to try to get it at any means necessary and it’s unfortunate, but I think it’s a fact of life.

1:42:01 You just hope that, you know, there’s systems in place to catch those people. Yeah, I kind of want to finish on sobriety because it’s an interesting topic. I know you’ve been, I think, sober. Since 17, yeah, I’ve had various bouts with various different kinds of drugs and alcohol throughout my life. The big one for me was a big heroin overdose when I was 30.

1:42:20 . Yeah, and talked about in my movie Iron Man. About five years ago, up now, I had a drink in five years, it’s been amazing. One thing I noticed at the Iron Man race is so many recovering addicts and alcoholics. Some of them have found this as their new addiction, which maybe is a healthy addiction. Talk to me about your struggles as a teen, and then maybe what you think about the person that be that becomes a hardcore addict.

1:42:48 And what kind of mentality that is. Yeah, because, you know, we both have some experience there. Yeah, so, yeah, you know, quit drinking. When I was 17. and at 17 I was a very, very shallow bottom drunk. You know, I, I don’t have a life partner or lose, I don’t have a house to lose, I don’t have a career to lose.

1:43:07 My life just became, I was just getting in trouble and it wasn’t. Every time I drink it, what every time I drink? I didn’t get in trouble, but every time I got in trouble I had been drinking and some of the stuff I was getting in trouble for it was no longer like a slap on the wrist, it was getting real. And, you know, alcoholism runs in the family, so the writing was on the wall. I knew like, Yeah, pretty early on, I knew, like, all right, I got this thing and for myself.

1:43:42 The step from going from my network of friends that I drank and partied with to the network of friends that I would go to meetings with was. I was already friends with the whole sober group, all my teenage years, my dad always encouraged me to, Hey, why’d you hang out with these guys? Why don’t you hang out with these guys? And I’m like, I’m in my teens and these guys are like, mid to late 20s, and I’m like, Why is my dad? Encouraging me?

1:44:09 To hang out with these adults like this is weird, and then, you know, get a little bit older. Realize that, Oh, my dad knew them from the program, my dad. It’s also been sober my whole life, and so the day I decided like my life has become unmanageable. And I, I’ve, you know, I. I can’t consume alcohol in moderation.

1:44:33 My transition to going to my first meeting was so simple, so the barrier of entry was super low. And then I was, I was a kid, and then I was also very, very lucky that I quit drinking. I lived in Vermont, where AAA was started and founded. And so the Young People’s Network in for a sober community in Vermont is, I think, second to none. You know, once I moved around when I lived in college, you know, moved to Colorado Springs and then Marquette, Michigan, and would go to meetings there.

1:45:07 And I was like, This is not what I had back home. So, you know, very lucky, but, you know, just got just got in trouble, I just. I saw the opportunities I had through my weightlifting career and was like, I’m not willing to throw these opportunities away for this, like [expletive], that I’m just getting in trouble with. So and the transition was, you know, relatively easy for me. But yeah, had a great sponsor early on, took me through the 12 steps.

1:45:37 And then without even realizing, it just kind of naturally became friends with, like,-minded people. And so I mean, it was, I think, a probably a year or two into our relationship that I found out. Matt O’Keefe is also sober. And I was like, Oh, that’s probably why we got along so well. Right off the bat was like, We both have kind of the same mindset and thinking process.

1:46:06 But the biggest blessing that I found was that I’m not just an alcoholic, I’m a holoc with anything. There’s not much I do in moderation as soon as if one is good, two is better and ten is awesome. And so what I found was that anything I do that I enjoy, I’m going to do it in excess. And I never had a problem drinking. I was a great drinker.

1:46:42 It was the effects of it were negative, and so the it hurt the people around me, you know whatever it was, and so I, I remember seeing my buddy’s girlfriend, who they were both in the program, and when she got sober, she was. I think she was about six foot, one or six foot two. She was an 88 pound heroin addict, just a skeleton of a human. I don’t think she graduated high school, but then she got sober, got her GED, got her undergrad, enrolled in medical school and then became this highly successful doctor. And then the boyfriend, you know they.

1:47:28 His high school graduated him six months early on his 18th birthday so he could go to prison. Like you want to talk about somebody that is hopeless, like your high school is pushing you out the door so you can show up to your prison sentence. Life’s likely not going uphill for you, so. but I saw I saw what he did, and he’s an inspiration to me. Now.

1:47:57 When it comes to business, you know, he’s incredibly, incredibly successful and I’m looking at this, I’m like, How did you guys, you guys were a low? That was that I have never experienced. And now you, you, you’re doing things that I’m aspiring to do as well. And I realized, like, Oh, they’re both addicts. You get addicted to whatever gives you a good feeling.

1:48:21 So the reason there’s meetings for drugs and alcohol is because the results of doing those are incredibly damaging, incredibly hurtful. So when, when I when I was, when I enrolled in UVM, nobody’s coming up to me and being like, Dude, you’re doing a double major double minor like, I don’t know if that’s the best choice, man, because the results of it are positive. Nobody’s coming up tomorrow while I’m training of like, Hey, man, you’re doing two sessions a day and you’re in the gym for three hours. Every session, that’s a little bit too much. I don’t think you should be doing that because the results are something beneficial.

1:49:00 So I was like, All right, as long as I get addicted to things that have a positive outcome, this is a blessing. So now that I have, I have no desire to drink, like driving by a bar, seeing when a new drink gets released. I used to have those feelings, like seeing the commercial for, like, some new flavor of something. And I was like, Man, what a bummer. I never got to try that.

1:49:26 Now I’m like it just, I don’t even notice it, you know? So I genuinely have no desire to drink, but I still have an addictive personality, and anytime I touch anything, it’s like, Well, if one’s good, two is better. And so I just make sure to allow my allow my addictive personality to get to only latch on to things that have a positive outcome and are beneficial to the people around me. So, you know, I looked at it as a long time as this curse of I can’t go to a party and just have a beer. You know, as soon as I have one, I’m waking up the next morning, can’t remember the night before, and I’m a bunch of angry text messages to now I’m like, Okay, anything that has that negative outcome, let’s just get that out of the way and just focus on the things I have a positive outcome.

1:50:15 So I went I, it was a complete 180 of thinking that I had this curse and now re reframing it. And being like, Man, this is a blessing. I’m so glad that I can obsess over this thing. I can sit here and stare at this problem for hours on end and be totally content like I thrive under that. And it’s like, just make sure you’re addicted to the good things.

1:50:38 It’s a beautiful way to put it, man, and if someone’s watching us or listening to us out there, who’s struggling with some type of addiction? I would just say, You know, if you can find a way to control that beast, you can be unstoppable. And so many [expletive] of your life. A hundred percent better than that. I mean, the people that maybe don’t have that problem, I mean, not even control that beast, but harness it to your benefit.

1:51:00 You know, like if anyone’s out there struggling like the phone has never weighed more than when you’re in a bad place, that phone weighs. 5,000 pounds when you need help. And you think that I know for myself, so when I first decided to quit drinking, I just white knuckled. It didn’t tell anyone. I just realized that my life had become unmanageable and I just went [expletive] it, I’m done.

1:51:27 And then you quickly realize how many friends you have and how many drinking buddies you had, and then so now you feel alone, you feel isolated and it’s very natural to have these wild insecurities. And you think you think everyone’s looking at you and judging you and talking about you? Whereas once you get a little life experience, you realize no one gave a [expletive]. Yeah, and but it I. I remember refusing to call anyone or ask anyone for help because I was scared of being an inconvenience and how foolish I was.

1:52:03 You know how silly, like the amount of people I had in my life. That would, you know, drive halfway across the country just to. If it helped me out a little bit, they would do it. And if you’re out there, make the call, make the call, and even like, even show up to a meeting, it’s like you think everyone’s staring at you. Nobody gives a [expletive].

1:52:22 Everyone’s had their first time walking like, same thing as what I was talking about with the gym. Everyone had their first day, everyone had the time where they didn’t know the answer to a question, and you’ll never know that answer if you don’t ask those questions and no one’s judging you, Matt, I could probably sit and talk to you from their album, We Gotta Get You on a Flight. The book is hard work pays off, and they should grab a copy. I’m guessing Amazon, your website to follow you on Instagram, is the best way, but definitely let’s pick up on this conversation again. Another time.

1:52:51 I really enjoyed talking to you, thank you so much for having me take that stuff that you talked about with the addiction. And definitely, there’s a lot of help out there and there’s hope on the other side as well. Absolutely, but look, you’re super inspiring, man. I love the lessons in here. And it’s just great to see that a man with a will can like, defile these odds and crush something which is considered.

1:53:12 Probably one of the most difficult things to do in this world. So I’m looking forward to your next chapter, man, and thank you so much for the time, thank you really appreciate that. All right, take care.