Full transcript: Emma Sayle on London Real
1:00 This is London Real. I’m Brian Rose. This is Nick Gabriel and joining us today is Miss Emma Sayle, who is the founder of Killing Kittens, which provides a safe environment for people to explore their fantasies and sexual desires. Oh, just shag. Oh, just shag, as she says.
1:27 Your tagline is elite casual dating, but I was wondering if you could tell us what is Killing Kittens and why does it exist? Well, there’s lots of different aspects to Killing Kittens. So originally, it started as just parties. So it’s parties for single women and couples to come on. So we don’t let single men in.
1:49 And within the parties, we have rules and men can’t approach girls. They’ve got to wait to be spoken to and sort of anything goes. So they kind of tend to turn into orgies and there’s a lot of girls on girls. There’s a lot of girls exploring with other girls. There’s loads of different aspects.
2:07 You get some couples coming along because the girl in the couple wants to try things with another girl. Or you get couples wanting to do the whole threesome thing or just sort of a big group thing. Or there are some people that just come and watch. It’s all different. So those are the parties.
2:24 And then on top of that, we’ve got the big website where we’ve got 26,000 members. That’s more like a social networking site. So people are all over the world and you can search and browse for other members. And then you can message them and then meet up and have your own little parties and little hookups. So it’s kind of a dating element of it.
2:45 But on the website, we do let single men in. So a third of our members online are single men. So there are actually a lot of single men and a lot of single women meeting online and going off and making beautiful babies. Not quite. Practicing.
3:02 If I was to walk into one of those parties at like 9 o’clock and then at like midnight, what would I see at those two different time intervals? Well, 9 o’clock you’d walk in and you’re in a very smart sort of cocktail party where everyone wears masks and everyone’s chatting. And you’d think, oh, this is a really nice chatative group of people. I’m really chatty. And then if you walked in at midnight, you’d probably get about a third of those people still standing around chatting.
3:28 And then you’d see the old naked person walk through. And it’s only if you go back into sort of the back arrows of the parties that you see the playrooms. It depends what the venue is. Why did you start killing kittens? What did you feel like there was a need for something like this?
3:43 It was, I mean, to start with, I did a kind of, not a bit of a joke, but it was sort of, I did it to piss some people off that owed me some money. They organized some parties. And I was sort of drunk in Ibiza at a wedding. And it was quite a wild wedding. And my background was PR and a lot of my clients had been, when I went freelance, had been in the adult world.
4:07 And what I saw was it was all run by men. And quite Susie, men sort of claiming, a lot of them were claiming to be female friendly and doing it for female empowerment and pleasure and it’s like bollocks. And I just didn’t, yeah, I just didn’t like that. And it didn’t, and as I said, some people owed me money. And then I was on holiday at this wedding and I was just sort of, I can’t be asked to represent people anymore and I want to do my own thing.
4:37 And sort of, it was all quite tongue in cheek. So it was, the rules were kind of the rules of Fight Club. So we had, you know, rules at parties. The mask, like an eyes wide shut. And then even the name came off.
4:49 A friend was reading a script that had something to do with killing kittens and we were talking about what it meant that every time a female masturbates, God kills a kitten. It’s kind of a cyber slang expression. And so, yeah, so I mean, I’m a bit of a numbers geek, quite OCD on numbers and stuff. And the two Ks, I like the two Ks and Ks are a very powerful letter. Do you know what I mean?
5:14 It’s just known as quite, it’s quite a powerful letter and if you look it up online, it’s got loads of kind of history and connotations around it. Or you’ve got the KKK, which is obviously not cool. But it’s not cool at all. I’m not encouraging that at all. But, you know, killing kittens has been, gets abbreviated to KKK.
5:37 So actually more people call it KKK. That’s strange. There’s this family of jujitsu fighters who, they name all their sons with the name starting with the letter R because they believe R has mystical powers. There are different, well it’s like the Kardashian lot, aren’t they? They’re all Ks.
5:53 I don’t know why that is. And that’s probably got nothing to do with powerful. But, so yeah, so it just, it was all very, so it started very tongue in cheek and just did it and had the first party had 30 people in and it sort of grew word of mouth. And then all of a sudden it was like, actually this is working and this is important and women actually want to come. And it is fulfilling a nation and need.
6:19 And it was kind of at that phase, it was seven years ago when you’d had sex in the city and someone’s hitting the high street. And all of a sudden it was kind of, it had feminism, you know, the fell feminist movement. But that was, you know, that’s not really sexy. It’s like trying to get girls to be guys is not encouraging female sexuality and femininity at all. So it was kind of, it was more the whole female sexual revolution of, you know, we can talk about sex and we’re entitled to an orgasm as much as men are and it really isn’t an issue if you’re at a dinner, you know, why shouldn’t men be able to talk about sex and girls can’t?
6:55 It was kind of at that point. So it just, I think it would just hit at the right time. Well, was business booming right away and have you had like cycles, downs and ups? We’ve had, I mean, it’s always done, well, there’s never been a down. It’s always gradually growing, but we’ve had, we had a massive up and doubled our membership in a couple of months when the recession happened.
7:19 In September 2008, it literally, I was sort of on the point of, well, am I going to continue this? It was kind of sort of taking along growing slowly. And then just suddenly that hit and we doubled our members and our parties doubled in size, literally between within a month. Because it’s ultimately people wanting to relieve stress. Well, it’s an escapism.
7:39 It’s just, you know, people, it was one thing, and it’s not hugely expensive to go to the parties and stuff. Now, your press points are quite low. Can you explain that, roughly how much it is and why you choose that point? We do, it’s either a hundred, it depends where the party is, but they range from a hundred pounds a couple to 150 pounds a couple, or 50 pounds for single girls, up to about 80 pounds for single girls. It’s just, I’d rather, but then we do do some one-off parties where, you know, it’s 500 pounds a couple, and we do that.
8:11 We don’t invite only select couples or select girls to that. So, yeah. So, I mean, the price point is just, it’s more, I want it to be accessible. I would have thought it would have gone up with the bull market and in a recession, it would have pulled back, because I thought even attitudes about sex and being, you know, let’s go for it might have cut back in the recession. No, I think binding out, I found the opposite.
8:34 But also, you get it in, you know, you get it in war-torn countries or war zones, sex goes up. It’s a, you know, it’s a known thing that it gets very hedonistic. And, for example, Beirut, when it, you know, when everything kicks off, everyone goes into sort of hedonistic, sort of kind of mode. And in war zones, all the soldiers and everyone just, you know, it becomes rampant. So, it, I think stress, actually, yeah, it can down people’s sex drive and stuff in the workplace, but I think the whole escapism and just wanting to get away from sort of the stress of life is what they can come and do, and it is a kind of fantasy world.
9:14 Well, Brian, doesn’t alcohol consumption increase during times of, times of recession as well? Yeah, I think all the sin, the sin is that alcohol and tobacco and even drug use goes up. So, I guess that would kind of make sense. Everything goes up, yeah. Do you think about your business in the way if it’s a vice, something like alcohol or drugs or something?
9:34 I mean, I know you probably say no initially because you’re like, no, this is my business, but in a way, is it like that? Do you know, I think there’s an element of it being a vice. It’s one of those things, like, you can say the internet is great, you know, it’s an amazing thing, but there’s a dark side. It’s how you use it. So, there’s a very dark side that’s happened with, you know, the internet coming along and it’s opened up, you know, pedophiles and the same way with the killing kittens parties, it’s how you use it.
10:04 A lot of, it’s great, you know, it’s not a vice to a lot of people. It actually has helped a lot of relationships and they come along and they experience things together and they keep their sex life alive and they’re exploring together and it’s great for girls to explore with other girls and, you know, every girl I know is bi-curious. They might say bollocks or not, they are. So, you know, every girl out there has thought at one second, would it be like, you know, kiss a girl or whatever.
10:32 But then you do, you’re obviously going to get a side which is dark and is probably a vice and maybe there are some couples that come along or girls that come along where it does affect them in a negative way. How do you deal with that? Do you tell people what to expect before or do you screen, how do you deal with that? You can’t deal with it because to be honest I wouldn’t know, so I wouldn’t know what happens, you know, when they leave the party the next day.
10:58 So I don’t, you know, we get great feedback from members and we have a lot of regulars and they’re great couples and great girls and some of them are the most sauteed couples I know. And their relationships are as strong as, you know, more strong than other couples and I don’t go to the party. So I don’t know how it affects people. You never see someone where you have to pull them aside and say you’re coming to too many parties or something doesn’t look right here.
11:26 Do you have to do that? No, I haven’t come across any psychopaths yet. Do you have to kick people out? The only people we’ve kicked out a few times is when you get a man, it’s always sort of an alpha male that quite can’t handle it. Because they used to be in control and they’re put in an environment where it’s got nothing to do with them and they’re not allowed to do their usual you know, Finnock, shark shock attack type method, they’ve got a man to be spoken to and then they just can’t control it and then so they’ll drink and then they get a little bit pushy.
12:00 But to be honest, we have security wander around and the members kind of police it themselves so if someone’s out of order or they go or there’s a guy through there who’s just kind of tried it on a bit or tried to get involved and we’ll go, we’ll do it. Just say something to them like, give them my break. Step away. How is the alpha male stuff embodied? Because they’re obviously there with a girl probably.
12:22 Do they get jealous at the girl? Do they just try to jump in? I’m just wondering how that comes out. No, it’s more, yeah, the jealousy, well I haven’t really seen it on that side but they do, it’s more them getting a little bit overexcited and wanting to jump in. Little wandering hands that shouldn’t be wandering without anyone smashing them.
12:44 And I understand that you’re kind of like the ringleader. I set the scene. You set the scene but you don’t get involved. Is that right? So what do you do all night?
12:54 Do you introduce people? No, I kind of, I mean I don’t go to all the parties. They’re really nice people that go and I make some good friends out of some of the regulars and stuff and I’ll just sit at the bar area or wherever. Sometimes I just sit on the door or if we’re running the bar, I’ll get behind the bar and help run the bar. It’s much, you know, I prefer doing that because then you hear people’s true comments because people don’t realise if I’m being a bar girl, most people realise that it’s my party. Do you wear a mask?
13:28 I’ll wear a mask and just serve and they just think I’m a bar girl and then I get people going oh, have you come to this a lot? Do you know much about it? And then you just chat the way and stuff and you just keep quiet. There’s nothing less than like any kind of club owner or a big dog going somewhere and you’ve got the owner going this is my set up. I’m the big dog. So you want to let it happen organically? So I just keep quiet and just let it. They’re all chatting and when you get the regulars who are really confident they’ll chat to people that are nervous first timers and they just they’re intelligent people they kind of get it going themselves.
14:04 Yeah, I went to a couple of your parties and they just blew my mind. What were they like Nick? Come on, tell us. I mean I used to think of myself as a reasonably sexually liberated guy and I just think I wasn’t at that point where I could could process it. You know like I just it actually at some points it made me I mean I didn’t have sex with anyone there but I was like right next to it and it made me quite uncomfortable.
14:31 And I know that’s my own that’s the limits of my own sexual understanding. But it just blew my mind that things like this happen. You know like we see this veneer of society where everyone goes to Sainsbury’s and gets their groceries or they go to their 9 to 5 job and then these things happening that not many people know about. You know what other things are going on behind closed doors on a Friday night that we don’t know about. Everything. I think of the movie Eyes Wide Shut because they had a very dramatic and beautiful scene of kind of like an underground elite party. And then I always think it can’t be like that. You know you might have this image. Is it? Of killing kittens then you go in and it’s just like oh it’s gross but so you say it’s better.
15:16 It’s better because that yeah and also Eyes Wide Shut is you know it’s very objectifying women. It’s very much the men who are in control and the women are just kind of there being chagged. Yeah okay. If you think about it it’s like the women are wandering around naked and they’re just being dealt with and the guys are the ones in the cloaks and I actually find it quite, I don’t find it that sexy Eyes Wide Shut. I find it quite it’s very male.
15:42 It’s very predatory. It’s very kind of you know the guys just prowling and pouncing and the women being very submissive and you know and actually their eyes are the complete opposite. You know it’s the women that are, the women are very predatory. They’re very, you know a lot of them are very full on sexually confident. You’ve seen it.
16:00 They just go for it. Do girls get into fights like stay away from my men? No, no, no. No? That doesn’t happen. No.
16:10 The girl comes with her men and she’s kind of like okay things are going to happen. You know it’s about what the girl wants so I call them any men that go there, kind of walking dildos. I am. They’ll get used if the girl wants to use it. Do you objectify men then?
16:24 No. No. You could use them as an objectification. I mean the alternator is an element of that because it is it’s all about what the girl wants and it’s up to the girls what happens and the guys, as I said, well if the girls want to use the guys then they’ll use them. But it’s like that anyway though.
16:39 It is an element of. It’s like that anyway in any regular bar like women are the gatekeepers of sex. A guy has to go there and he has to demonstrate his value or his worth. Like you won’t go to a bar as a man and expect women to just like jump on you. Unless you fly her with 20 Sambuca shorts.
16:59 Did the movie Eyes Wide Shut help your business? Was that right around when you opened this business? No, because that was before. We’ve been going seven years and I think that film must be over ten years. But it must be something that people think of right away. People always think. I think it’s the mass sex party that people told you these ones.
17:17 Prototypes. Yeah. I think it’s the mass sex party. Okay. You know I have a friend who actually he takes his girlfriend to business all the time.
17:29 And I said to him I said I’ll call him Steve. I was like Steve isn’t it a bit weird to see your girlfriend having sex with some other guy. I personally get really probably jealous. And he just looked at me and he said Nick, life is all about sharing. I couldn’t argue with the guy. I was like okay and the more I thought about it the more I realized is that’s the ultimate display of security like personal security with yourself is being able to we’ve spoken about this before. I want to get Emma’s thoughts on this. Yeah. I mean what do you think?
18:03 No I think completely and that’s what sometimes you know I get into sort of heated debates with people because you get people and I’ll tell you what it is the only people that have fun with the parties aren’t alpha males. I’m not saying the parties outside the parties because they just can’t get their head around it. Outside the parties. And they’re the ones that will be like it’s wrong it’s dark, it’s twisted, it’s like the only couples are going to go are ones that are in screwed up relationships it’s the ultimate and I don’t want to go actually it’s the opposite. A lot of the time a lot of the time these are the most secure in love couples I’ve ever come across and what they’re doing is they’re exploring together and there’s no threat and they’re completely secure. They’re securing themselves they’re secure in their relationship and it’s just an experience it’s not, I think it’s the alpha thing of that’s my territory, that’s my property and therefore no other man it’s animal kingdom that’s my bitch and if a guy even looks at her or goes near her he’s going to kick off and it’s that mentality which you never, you know it’s ingrained.
19:09 It’s a biological mechanism that you have to overcome I guess. Does that mean that if I don’t want to see some guy fuck my girlfriend there’s something wrong with me? That’s an amazing question. No that’s not, it’s a choice so it’s not, you know, each to their own it’s like I personally yeah these are my priorities but I personally have never got involved and I’ve never been in a relationship where I’ve felt, you know, wanted would be happy doing that so it is each to their own but I don’t know if I’m going to end up in a relationship and sort of 10 years down the line it is something that you both talk about because actually some of the couples that come along who was you know, for example there’s one couple who have been together for 15 years and she’d only sort of slept with one person before and and they were chatting and she just said I’ve got to a point where I don’t want to cheat on you but I don’t want to die having, and it was kind of she was getting bored and you were probably getting bored too and it was like well let’s go let’s go to one of these parties we’ll go and watch the first one, we won’t get involved we’ll just see what it’s like and then we’ll decide and they said it has, this was sort of four years ago the whole thing is complete, they are now probably if I had to pick a couple and they’d become very good friends of mine they’re the most salty couple I know of and they just are so together so in love and actually
20:33 What it did, they haven’t got involved and they still haven’t, you know they’ve never, she still hasn’t slept with anyone else but she’s just gone and they’ve just come along and seen it all and done it together and wandered around and they’ve slept with each other in front of some of the rooms with people around and they said it’s really exciting and what it’s done is put the spot back in them and they’ve realised, she’s realised that actually she doesn’t want to sleep with anyone else Talk to me Brian No, no that’s a big, I think if you look at it that way as an alternative to cheating then anyone would have to say well yeah, I mean if you could take the time when your wife comes home and says I just slept with the plumber and then you could rewind a day and she says would you like to go to this party because if we do this, this won’t happen and I think any guy would say yeah, maybe I’ll just have to get outside my head and explore this, it makes sense Yeah, because people shagging around behind cheating, there’s always a reason for the cheating and most of the time the effort goes and it becomes stale and that’s when the mind starts to wander and it’s not a thing of right, you have to go as a couple the only way you can spice it up is to go to these parties but I think there are too many couples and I’ve done it and seen friends couples and you just think if they just made an effort, if you just go and do date night
21:55 Once a week, if you just sort of you can spice things up but everyone just gets in this kind of pattern of boredom and that’s when a lot of times you get people going off and cheating You said most women you think are bi-curious in a way and I have to agree with you, but you think most men are bi-curious in a way? No, but it’s scientific Why is that a difference? There’s a scientific fact, there’s a sexual scale between one and seven and seven, so one is completely straight, seven is completely gay and men very much fall either around the one or around the seven so you’re kind of not in the women, all women fall between three, four, five so women are much more tactile touchy feely, women will actually check out girls faster than boys will check out girls You know, my two ex-boyfriends both of them I had competitions we would have a competition as we walked down the street to see who caught the birds first And you were cool with that because you were cool Any girl that goes stop looking at that girl, whatever it’s lying at her ass if she turns around and says that she’s been clocking that girl and not necessarily in a sexual way but women are, it’s all aesthetics, women were put on the whole sexual thing about women women look good naked, men don’t look good naked really A penis is not a particular type of thing Except for Matthew McConaughey, he looks great naked Except for Michael Fassbender And Michael Fassbender, he looks great naked
23:29 So women are put on to vote desire, if women have always danced since the beginning of time provocatively, and that’s how women operate So there is that for the bi-curious thing women are scientifically sexually set up Where did you hear that? There’s the big Kinsey Institute in the States, which is the Grobel Sex Institute I’ve heard some more things before It makes sense from all my non-analytic data And it’s true, women do check other women all the time not necessarily in a sexual way, but they’re trying to notice, although I have been told before that men are excited visually and women are excited in an auditory way, is that true? It is true, can you explain that?
24:19 So I did this thing for Channel 4 Science, it was about the truth about female desire, and they had some of the directors from the Kinsey Institute over, and it’s the one of the things that they did, and we did experiments and stuff, is that women are very connected down there and up here, which is why emotionally, you know, and men aren’t, you can very much your brain is separate from down there, whereas women were all connected, so if we’re emotional in any way it affects down there, so that’s why for example, you know, men can have one night stands a lot easier than women can, because women have that emotional attachment to it, you can’t just walk away, you know, a lot of girls can’t walk away the next day and not feel a bit used, whereas men, it’s like sex is sex, it’s just, you know I kind of beg to differ on that point, I think a lot more men get attached to women than you might believe after sex and, you know, something I find in my own group of friends is, after breakups and stuff, it’s usually the guy who’s more fucked up than the woman, it’s the guy who’s never said it.
25:31 Oh, you know, breakups, yeah, I’m talking about one night stands, as the men can go out and just have one night stands with no emotional attachment, a lot easier than girls go out and have one night stands, which is why men, you know, do it more, it’s just they’re just getting their end away. But women have the brain is very much, it’s the biggest sexual organ, is the brain. And I was, you know, Joey, as a girl, if you turn the brain on, then you’re gonna get in my pants.
25:55 Well, they’ve shown that your sex drive is a function of not only testosterone, but also neurotransmitter activity. So if there’s more like acetylcholine, whatever floating on your brain, you are gonna be more horny, which I find fascinating. Talk to me about the book, Fifty Shades of Grey. You know, it’s a book. I bought my girl a copy of it, I didn’t even know I was here, I see it on the tube, and everyone’s talking about it. There was a meme on Facebook where it said, had a bunch of women reading the book, and it said, women won’t watch porn, but they’ll read the fuck out of it.
26:29 That’s amazing. But it is in a way, it’s almost like the women’s equivalent of internet pornography is like the book in some way. But how is that book, what do you think of the book, and how has it affected your business? It hasn’t, well it hasn’t affected, I haven’t seen a noticeable, it hasn’t kind of had a sudden blip. If I’m not going to be honest, I read half the first one, and was so bored, so badly written. I didn’t read it. What’s it all about? And also, the thing I don’t get, and it’s great, and I hats off, the marketing machine behind it is incredible, but it’s about a dominant man and a submissive woman. It’s the complete opposite of what we stand for, and what we’re trying to do. You talk about the whole female empowerment thing.
27:15 How is that, how is some woman who’s been completely submissive to an arsehole? How’s that female empowerment? It happens in the book. Do you not think that every woman, not everyone, but the vast majority of women, deep down biologically are wired to crave male dominance because our species throughout history has required strong dominant men to go and hunt and kill and submissive women to stay and rear the children. I don’t know many women.
27:45 I don’t know many women that want my girls. You’ve got your club hiding under the table. I’m serious, it’s a question I want the answer to because I don’t know many women who like to be able to dominate men. I don’t know many women that get off on that, but I do know a lot of women that are always telling me, oh, I wish my boyfriend I wish my husband would just be the man in the relationship. I always say that I am a man and to man up.
28:13 But the thing is, and I think that you’re right, I don’t know any girls. You want to be dominated, but there’s a difference between dominating and controlling. And it’s fine being dominated and dominated in the bedroom. Great. All girls pretty much want that.
28:31 And you do want a man to be a man and to feel looked after and to be a girl. Every girl does want that. But then at the same time, you don’t want to be controlled. I don’t want to be controlled. Or, you know, you said about women being in the kitchen, being at home.
28:47 It’s a modern world. You can’t let girls do all the jobs that men do nowadays and women be financially independent and have the same drive and ambition as men. If you open the door for women’s fair or equal opportunities, as they call it, then they’re out of the kitchen. They’re out of the kitchen. I didn’t actually say kitchen.
29:13 And the home. You said it’s they’ve been quiet. But that’s not the world as it is now. But then at the same time, the sexual drive is still the same. So the way men and women mate is still the same.
29:29 There’s something about this book that seems to have made it okay, at least temporarily, for women to just embrace their sexuality a bit. So I mean, I do hear you see people reading it as if it’s like the first time this has ever been written about. So I know it’s not exactly the same way that you structure your party. It’s funny how we’re talking about a female sexual revolution in the year 2005. I thought we did this 30, 40 years ago, but apparently we haven’t.
29:53 Maybe we haven’t even yet. No, it’s still coming. It’s still not. A woman will still get judged for going out and having one night stands. It’s still, it’s okay for men to sleep around. It’s not okay for women to sleep around. It still isn’t.
30:09 Society still judges. And you can’t as a girl, you wouldn’t be with your girlfriends, but I don’t think any girls I know would be really open going, oh, I shagged this guy last night. Even with girlfriends? No, with girlfriends, why? Even with girlfriends, it’d have to be a very close group of girlfriends because there’s still that stigma of, oh, I don’t want anyone thinking I’m a slut. Guys don’t do that. They’re like a man if they get out and shagged around.
30:39 It’s still happening. We’re still not there yet at all on that equal level. A lot of guys out there as well will judge a girl if they hear that girl sleeps around. They won’t want to go near her. There’s that judgment.
30:57 That’s such a fascinating thing. There’s so much judgment around it. That’s why I was going to ask what you thought of like Freud’s reasoning, which is like all our motivations are sexually related. Do you think that’s true? Yeah. Really?
31:09 Wow. Everything? I think you go back to, I would say that it’s the Lord of Jungle and it’s back to basics. And as you said, it is very much, and nothing’s changed on the sexual drives. The girl wanting the guy to be dominant and be the man, that’s still there.
31:27 You don’t come to your parties for that, per se. No. The parties are a release. They’re a release. They’re exploring.
31:33 It’s a very unrealistic world, the parties. It’s not a case of that. It’s a one-off experience where, yeah, we get regulars who come twice a month once a month, but it’s not the normal world. It’s like where which bars and places you go. And personally, if I go out to bars and clubs and stuff, I will never be the one that goes and talks to guys out of the blue. But that’s what we do at the party. I will wait for a guy to come and talk to me, because I’m a wimp.
32:03 So the real world is like that, and actually women want that. Women want the guy to take control and be the one that asks out. I don’t think I’ve ever asked a man out of my life. Terrified. This to me is how confused your average male is when it comes to female interaction. And I have by no means solved the puzzle, but your average guy listening to this right now is like a lot of things you’re talking about, or even it’s such a hard thing for men to get their heads around. The average guy is literally starved of sex. Like, literally starved. Yeah, you’re right.
32:37 Why is that Emma? Because the sexual marketplace is cruel. I mean women want the alpha male, and men want the woman with a certain hip to waist ratio. Yeah, that’s what it is. Do women want the alpha male? Of course they do. But the thing is I always joke, you know, we want the, you want, I’m an alpha female, and you want the alpha male, but a lot of time what comes with an alpha male is that is the insecure controlling.
33:01 I always joke going, find me a secure alpha male. Do you really have you noticed that most alpha males seem to be reasonably insecure? And controlling. It’s the controlling bit. They have opinions on everything, which is fine, but it’s not as much that it’s kind of, they know nothing about certain things, and yet they will not hesitate to tell you this is how you should be running your business.
33:23 This is what you should be doing. This is where you’re a controlling client. It’s all set to make sense now. And you’re like, I don’t try to interfere in your business or anything. I think that removes your alpha status if you’re not secure enough and you’re trying to control people.
33:35 Doesn’t that by definition make you not alpha anymore? I had this thought the other day that, well if you look at brainwave activity, right, like alpha, the alpha brainwave state is when you’re the calmest. Like Buddhist monks are always in alpha. And I think that that is what the ultimate alpha male is, is the guy who’s just calm and relaxed and can take anything that comes instead of trying to be like, this is how it has to be and control every situation. You know what I mean?
34:01 When a girl says something to him and he’s just cool. Whereas the average guy will get all butt hurt and offended. Alpha male will just be like, whatever. And that shows. And it’s egos as well.
34:15 You know, you’re governed by your ego or yourself. And the self is internalized, so you’re happy in you and you’re secure. And anyone that’s governed by an ego, it’s very external and it’s all about what other people think. And trying to be, you know, and you get, so I think with the alpha males, if you get one that, as you said, is secure, and so they’re just governed by their self, they’re happy, who they are and they’re, like, your friend sounds like it. It’s like, you know, the whole sharing thing. We had someone comment on our Facebook and I thought I’d just bring it up. They said that they thought that some people run away from their own self-realization by going toward their sexuality and actually their kind of define their sexual persona as being separate from themselves. And do you think that that’s true? Or do you see that in your parties?
35:01 Where people almost not, maybe it’s even sex addiction. I don’t know, but they’re actually just running away from dealing with their own selves. That’s a good question. But as I said earlier when you asked me about the vices, it’s, you know, everyone’s there for different reasons. And there may well be people who are escaping from themselves and stuff, but then there’s a lot, they just want experiences. Life’s about experiences. It’s like why does someone go to the desert and do an ultra marathon? Is that them escaping from, is that them running away from something that, it’s you want, a lot of people want that experiences and extreme experiences and to live.
35:41 It’s more of your mantra. Just let people do what they want to do. That’s what I always say. It’s like, you know, some people, you get some people really heated. It’s wrong, blah, blah. And I’m like why are you so angry?
35:51 Why are you so angry? It’s not affecting your life. Are those the same people sneaking into your parties behind the mask? No, you know, and it’s wrong. And I’m like, well, A, you’ve never been to one so you’d have an absolute idea of what goes on.
36:03 And B, no one’s getting hurt. So if no one’s getting hurt, why, you know, who am I or you or anyone to judge what people get out to? I always ask the question, why does it bother you so much? Always a good question. You always get me with that.
36:19 What are you so angry about? We had a pickup artist on the show sitting in your seat about six months ago and he talked about the way he picks women up on the street and we had violent reactions from men and women and I just wanted to ask, why does that bother you so much? Because they’re not getting laid, dude. I don’t think it’s that simple. And actually a lot of the girls that, the Indian girls that have a problem with it and they like judge me and they like look me up and down and when you’re out and you just think, oh, you’re not getting laid or you’re in an unhappy relationship.
36:45 Normally I’m right. What’s your reception like in London? I mean, what do people think of you when you meet, not that you care, but what do people think of MSL? Well, I mean, I’ve heard some interesting stories. I’ve heard some lot of shit thrown around about me.
36:59 You know, there’s a lot of people that think I’m something information. The social pressure she missed beyond it is from people getting the wrong idea. It is a strange disconnect that you don’t participate. I mean, we’ve reached over it but it is, people will be like, hmm, you’ve seen it so many times. People will think you’re lying, bitch.
37:15 I think you’re telling the truth. And I think it’s smart too. Let’s say, don’t get high on your own supply. Tony Montana. It’s true. A lot of drug dealers don’t do drugs.
37:27 But, no, I mean, it’s business and someone needs to keep the neck on and I’m, how can you run a business if you’re tits up in the middle of it? And personally, it’s not, because it’s not my thing at all, it’s then very easy to see what works and what doesn’t work without it being clouded. Because sex is such a big thing and I think that’s one of the problems I had with when I was doing PR for all these loads of people in the adult world, it was a lot of old CZ guys who, it was very much, they were doing it to get off for their own sexuality and their own drives and their own, and it’s the same, I’m not a big porn film, I mean, I don’t, big people want to watch porn, they can, but I don’t find it particularly sexy.
38:09 Because when you look at porn films, you normally get some really ugly dude pounding some fake-looking bird, who does not look like she’s enjoying it at all in bright light. And to a girl, that doesn’t, to a guy, sex is sex, it’s the to a girl, to be turned on as a girl, it’s the touch, the feel, the smell, the ambience, it’s the whole, it’s the mood setting that turns a girl on. So, you know, if you’ve got a porn film that had all that right and a good looking guy, then yeah, it might be quite cool.
38:41 If you had to sum it up in one sentence or a short soundbite, what does sex mean to you Emma? Well, depends on me Emma. So, I mean, that’s the thing, you can, to me personally, you can be in a mood where it’s just a release and fun and sort of more last. But then you have it, you know, when you’re actually going out with someone and you’re in love with someone then it’s an amazing intimate experience. So, it kind of I don’t, sex to me isn’t, it’s the most natural thing out there. The most natural thing two human beings can do is have sex.
39:21 It’s in the animal kingdom. So, what’s women like that? We complicate it so much with human brain. We complicate it with the morals and religion and, you know, the judgement and it’s just, you know, it’s the most natural thing. That’s why those pickup artist guys actually like, I think a lot of them struggle to get laid is because they’re taking something that’s incredibly natural and they’re just putting all, yeah, they’re complicating the hell out of it.
39:45 Make it man, make it go. How much of our sexual behaviour do you think that we pick up from this kind of male dominated porn industry that you talk about? I mean, everyone’s seen the porn, men and women and everything and how much do you think we see that and that’s the way you’re supposed to have sex in the bedroom and then transfer it over? I think that that’s huge and I think, you know, as there’s more and more out there and with the internet as well I think there is this, and I know from speaking to, you know, kids and teenagers and they’re so affected by what they see on the internet and what they’re, you know, and I’ve heard teenage girls talk about, well, my bits don’t, you know what I mean, I’ve got, my flaps are too big and I want that tucked in that, and you think, this is just because they’ve watched porn and they’re judging, you know what I mean, that’s the way you’re meant to look.
40:31 That’s the way your bits are meant to look and that’s, and the, you know, the oohs and the ahhs and the screaming and the you know, thing, it’s like, well, there’s that whole kind of, well, are you meant to, is a guy not going to like you if you don’t make any noises? I think it’s a massive. That’s tricky. I think it does affect because it’s just not, you know, it’s all pretty fake and they are all fake oohs and ahhs. Is that what your parties look like?
40:59 The parties are better. Okay. Because they’re genuine oohs and ahhs. In candlelight and good-looking people. Do you ever lift on at your schedule and you’re like, oh, this weekend, not another or two? Yeah, no, I do.
41:11 I would joke with friends and I’m like, oh, what are you up to? I said, no, I’ve got an energy to run. We should do a long meal on the scene at one of the parties. With our masks on. Yeah.
41:21 How does one of these parties end? How does it end? How do you think it ends? I don’t know. Do people leave together?
41:27 A whole bunch of tissues. Do they come for like an hour? I mean, is it like two in the morning? No, no, it ends about four in the morning. And because it’s a good party as well, it’s not a case of people coming, getting their underwear and walking off. They will stay and they’ll wander around and they’ll sit in their chat or sit in their jacuzzi and chat and have more drinks and go again.
41:45 So it kind of, we tend to stop them between three and four in the morning. Okay. I was telling someone about this and the whole Killing Kittens thing and I was like, if I ever went to one of these parties, I’d have to hit the crack pipe or something really big before I went in. But, I mean, how many people, I mean, are drugs prevalent at these things? Do some people like that alpha male, like you said, they drink a lot?
42:03 I’m guessing a lot of guys would come in there and be want to take something because they would be freaked out. There is, I mean, to be honest, we’re the drugs that, we don’t, we’re very anti-drugs at parties, but it’s probably like any club or bar set up. You can’t, you know, if people are going to do them, they’re going to lose or wherever, but if it’s under our nose, then no, but I can’t sort of swear down that no one’s in the drugs or, you know, I have no idea.
42:25 I’d pay good money to see you at one of these parties, just to see the reaction on your face. Even in my mask? In my red mask? Not everyone wastes masks all the time, though, right? By the end of the night, most people have taken them off, so, okay.
42:37 It’s to start with, and we always have a drink’s option. How much of your job, I know you hold parties in L.A. and, you know, movie stars come to your party, I mean, how much of your job is being anonymous or keeping that anonymity or is it not a big part of what you do? It’s, I mean, to kind of, it’s tricky with the media thing to do the anonymity, but I like, as I said before, I like kind of slipping into a party and just kind of sitting around and chatting to people and sort of just watching. But I mean, like, not saying about guests that are going to come. Oh, you’re keeping them anonymous.
43:09 You’re keeping them anonymous. It’s all the business. It’s all confidentiality and discretion, and that’s, you know, that people trust us. Otherwise, they wouldn’t come along, so the whole confidentiality thing is massive, so I’ll never say who’s been to the parties and what goes on, and even if friends ask me, I won’t, you know, tell them. Would it really hurt these people’s careers, do you think?
43:31 No. Probably not, but you never know. I think the only careers it would hurt is if, my children’s presenter turned up or something, then you might get a little bit of, you know, not quite right. Would we be surprised who shows up at these parties? I don’t know what that means, but would we be?
43:47 I don’t know. I think you’d, I mean, you’d know people. You know, the names of people, but I don’t think you’d be surprised. There’s no one that’s sort of, you’d say there’s no way. It’s not like, you know, the Archbishop of Canterbury rocks up or something where then you’d be surprised.
44:03 I mean, have you ever, like, heard a story of someone going to one of these parties and being involved in some sort of sexual activity and looking up and her boss’s junk is in her face? Oh yeah, yeah. There are people that always, always at parties, people bump into people they know and there’s like an initial awkwardness and then they have a good giggle. Then it doesn’t matter because the thing is, it becomes so normal, you’ve seen it, right? It’s like when you’ve got that many people all at it, you kind of become an ethosized to it and you wander around, I have random conversations with people and you’ve got people doing this to your right, this to your left, but you don’t really notice it.
44:39 It’s kind of white noise that comes on, you just get used to it because it becomes the norm and it’s allowed. People just don’t, you know, people aren’t there kind of gawping going, it’s just, I’ve seen some people I know tits up in the middle of it and stuff. When I went to the party, the guy Steve, who said live so much, was walking around and I just heard Nick and looked over and I was like, Steve, and he’s one of my jiu jitsu clients and he’s a guy I teach, and it was pretty awkward, man, I’m not going to lie, it was wild. Do you have a mask on?
45:15 I didn’t have a mask. I guess a mask can’t cover that much if you know somebody you’re going to recognize. Exactly, it’s very obvious. It’s crazy. Wow. I want to go to one of these and I’m all amped up. Oh my gosh.
45:25 I know, I’m going to let you guys in tonight. You do some other things. Wind you up, set you on. You do some rowing and things also in your spare time and you used to hang out with Kate Middleton, the Duchess of Cambridge when you were doing rowing with her. What’s that whole separate part of your life?
45:39 I run a big group called the Sisterhood, which is about 80-odd girls in London and 40 down in Cape Town and we do loads of different sporting events for charity. So that’s kind of my passion. That’s cool. We don’t row, we’ve got a big dragon boat, so we go out on that Monday night, some more of a social, fits 24 people. It’s more of a gossip session.
46:01 But you do have to row a bit. Yeah, paddle. And Kate used to do it with you briefly. She did it about four months, so yeah. That’s cool.
46:11 What’s the future of killing kittens? Are you going to dominate the world? Is there only so much growth out there? We are going to dominate the world, all gee by all gee. Are you doing it now?
46:21 We’re slowly spreading the love, yeah. The online side of it is massively growing. On a business level, that’s the huge commercially, that’s where the business is. And we’ve got members all over the world, so that can easily, that’s a joy, that’s a beauty of online stuff. I say it’s like making money while you sleep, because if you’ve got little online memberships, and once you’ve got the site, then anyone in the world can access it.
46:49 So that we’re expanding on and doing an app as well. How is your online site different than other hookup sites? Because we still vet people. So you have to submit photos, you get vetted, you get used to them in the password. We turn two out with three people away, so it’s not, it’s a very sort of closely guarded group.
47:09 What is your criteria to becoming a member, if people want to? Got to be nice looking. Okay, that’s pretty general. I know, but I don’t want to say good looking, because then it’s normal. Yeah, let me go, you elitist bitch.
47:21 But it’s kind of just extremely good looking. You’re in, right? You’re in. You basically have to look like a supermodel. No, just attractive people age, it was 18 to 45, but we’re putting it up to 55, because the thing is you get a lot of good looking guys in their 50s who are actually a lot better looking than a lot of guys in their 20s, so it’s kind of a, yeah.
47:46 Me. I’m not a big fan of Daniel Craig. It’s his lips. Really? The hair is a little shorty, he’s getting a little older.
47:53 He’s getting a little old school. I like the older, like Roger Moore, he was the one. Yeah, he was my favourite as well. I was like on seven on the scale when he used to watch. Sean Connery?
48:02 And Sean Connery. He was old school. They just, yeah. Daniel Craig just doesn’t quite have it. He’s a bit too, he’s like born, he’s like more born and like born and trilogy stuff.
48:11 What about Michael Fassbender? What, is he a member? No, I’m asking for Emma’s opinion. Brian has a man crush on Michael Fassbender. Yeah, he’s hot.
48:22 Most definitely. Yeah. And they all bump into him. I’m quite a bit rough. With it, Jared Butler, I’m a big fan of hers.
48:29 Why? I don’t know, I just quite like the rough sort of man. Okay, he’s rough? As opposed to the, you know, Daniel Craig, you know, I work out five hours a day. He’s like pretty manicured, right?
48:40 Yeah, so he carves and, you know, manicured. I’ve got a man to a man. So with membership, they send you a picture, do you have to meet them, and what other women qualifications as well? No, we don’t have to meet them. No, there’s different things with women.
48:50 They just, they submit photos. They fill in their form online with your age and what you’re doing and stuff. And then it’s like a year and a, and then once it’s a year, they’ll get a username and password and that then gets them access into the community section and the forums and they can search and browse and chat. Have you had to ban people? We do get, we’ve given a few people, there’s a few people online with final warnings for being a little bit too prejudiced or a little bit too prejudiced on the website.
49:20 And then you get the odd person that thinks by submitting a photo of their erect penis, they’re going to get one of that. Does that ever work? No. Okay, I’m sure it’s worked once. Because I want to go, I want to see what the face is attached to that erect penis.
49:32 That’s what math is. What cities do you hold your parties in? We’ve done, well, mainly London, obviously, but we’ve done a few out in LA, a couple in New York, looking at Miami at the moment. Is the vibe different in New York when you hold parties in? New York’s quite similar to London.
49:50 Okay, how so? The LA vibe’s different because they’re just a much more hedonistic. Really? Yeah, the London ones. Yeah, they’re all at it, they’re friends, anyway.
49:58 All those actors and sort of arty lot, it’s like through love. Really? Yeah. So what you’re doing, isn’t that revolutionary? No, they’re all swinging and swabbing and jagging.
50:07 Really? We missed out when we were in LA, Brian. God damn, that’s funny. Do you think London has like a repression in the society that makes what you do, especially interesting? Yeah, I think British.
50:17 I think, well, the Britain, you know, Britain’s sex laws are 200 years old. They’re not, the rest of Europe’s all modernized. We’re living in the Victorian age when it comes to the sex laws and stuff. And, you know, very much, there’s that joke, you know, there’s that saying, it doesn’t matter what you do in the Virgin, something you don’t disturb the horses. It’s kind of, you know, which is a very kind of tight lipped about, about stuff like that.
50:37 Do you think it’s kind of like the rubber band effect, like if you pull something too far to one way, that it springs back with more force the opposite way. So we’ve been so repressed in this country for so long. That’s why things like Killing Kittens are starting to appear because people are just like, God damn, I need a release. I need to explore this side of myself. And it’s got more, I’ve noticed that in seven years, people are a lot more open about coming to the party.
50:59 So now people will openly talk about going to a Killing Kittens party and what they got up to. And it’s kind of, it’s not judged. It’s kind of, whereas seven years ago, no one would ever admit to going to a party and there was a lot more judgment. Now it’s become a bit cool. Are there laws against what you do?
51:17 I mean, with the whole, you know, pay transaction and sex going on in a building, is there anything? No, you can’t, as long as it’s the race of the law states, as long as it’s a private party, private members, and you’re not letting people on the street, you can use license venues, you can use, we’ve had Westminster Council walk into the party, we’ve had the police walked into parties before because there are some assholes out there who, you know, they know that if they phone out the police and say there’s underage sex going on, then they’ve got to turn off and check. But they’ve turned up and been really friendly and wandered around, you know, there’s a license venue where people were just naked and at it and they’ve gone, oh, you know, we’re aware of what you’re doing, there’s nothing.
51:55 There’s nothing illegal, but we’ve got to turn up and check if we get a tip off. And I’m like, oh no, he goes, so you just drew straws. But which of you guys are going to come down and check the party out? Do you have any competition in the industry, I guess? No, I mean, there are other people out there who do parties.
52:15 But I mean, a lot of the time, the people that do do the parties are, a bit like I said before, are sort of guys who are doing it for their own, that’s their lifestyle, that’s what they do. And a lot, I mean, there are people that do the parties, there are other websites out there for hookups and stuff. So, I mean, we’ve got the combination of the two. So there’s no kind of absolute direct compared to that. But I mean, there are a couple of things that have popped up in the last couple of years that do sort of similar-ish type, little parties and stuff.
52:47 If someone’s listening out there right now, a female or a male, that’s kind of on the fence about this, what do you tell them if they want to know if they should do this or not? I just say, come along and look. You know, we get a lot of emails from people saying, if we come, do we have to get involved? Is it a case of the minute you come through your door, you have to get naked? And we get a lot of people who come along and keep their clothes on.
53:10 I have loads of friends that come down. They’ll keep their clothes on, they don’t get involved, it’s not their thing. But they’re fun parties. It’s a really, really nice, cool group of people. It’s very unthreatening.
53:23 Because if you take that testosterone factor out and guys out in a group on the pool, you get very relaxed girls, and the whole atmosphere is very relaxed. So it’s really difficult to describe, because when people think there is sex going on, there’s got to be seedy. But actually, I find that people that come along say it’s actually less seedy. The parties are less seedy than if you went to a nightclub, which is more seedy. Just because the atmosphere is predatory at a nightclub?
53:51 Yeah, predatory. The women aren’t relaxed, because you do get groups of guys out, I call it running the gauntlet sometimes, if you go across the dance floor to get to the bar, you know you’re going to go walk across the dance floor and say, well, how many hands are you going to try and get up your skirt and grope? Anyway, it’s just so un-relaxing. Whereas there, you can wander around and girls come along and just dance around in the underwear, feeling completely safe.
54:14 Do you have some people that come in and then they just freak out and leave? No, I’ve never seen anyone really freak out. We’ve had a couple of people, it will come down for an hour and then say, oh, it’s not our thing, but thanks. I guess it’s not for everyone, right? And that’s what I say.
54:32 You’re not going to come and get jumped. If you’re on the fence and you’re intrigued, then it’s the case that we’ll just come now. Just come and have a look, come and have a drink and come in the other half and just say, look, let’s go. We’ll make a pact now that our clothes stay on unless we’re both in agreement. That’s what normally happens.
54:50 And once the couples, they have their rules. So they decide what to do. Do you get groups of girls that come, like four or five girls that just come together? How does that work out? Is that usually a good thing or is it better when women come alone?
55:01 It’s a good thing because a lot of the time, the girls will just end up in the underwear and add it with each other or with other girls. And a lot of these are girls that have gone, oh, there’s no way we’d ever do anything like that. And the next thing you see them floating in the shoes, making out with some other girl. Wow. So your business is just onward and upward.
55:20 Yeah, we’ve just written a book. You’re writing a book. Yeah. What’s it called and what’s it about? It’s all the stories.
55:28 It’s what goes on in the class itself. It’s quite graphic. Okay. Yeah, it’s amusing. So me and another girl, we’ve been wanting to say it for years and we’ve just sort of done it.
55:37 Is it difficult to write? No, there’s so much material. It’s working out the arc, as they call it, of the book. Wow. And you just talk about this story, that story, this way.
55:47 It’s like just general everyday life and then you’ve got a bit of sex in the city going on and then all the party stories. Wow. It’s intense. Oh, that’s right. Just sort of gets right.
55:59 Yeah, I know, it’s weird. It’s like this episode, I was watching myself this whole week and it’s like Nick and I have drank these crazy psychedelic substances that really fuck with your head and we’ve had all sorts of interesting people on but this episode was making me weird the whole week because I’m like, I don’t know, why am I have a problem with this? Why am I feeling weird about this? It’s weird because I guess your sexuality is such a big part of your personality that you don’t even realize it.
56:23 Yeah, it’s definitely. And I always say often because people say, you know, as you asked whether it was illegal or not, that, you know, a lot of venue owners will go absolutely no way, don’t want that anywhere near us. Other venue owners who see it for business have no problem with it. And I always say there’s nothing wrong with what we do. Sex is so psychological as in it’s your beliefs that govern your, what you, your beliefs about sex is what pretty much, as you said, governs your behavior and you know, a lot of your other life beliefs and that’s as you said, if it’s something that’s out of your comfort zone that you’re thinking about, it’s going to make you uneasy.
56:59 Think about how much energy and time the average man and woman spend, energy, time and money spend making themselves attractive to the opposite sex. And thinking about sex. Yeah, and thinking about it. And then we all like repress it and it’s kind of this thing no one wants to talk about. I mean, I think you’re really brave and I think it’s amazing what you’re doing.
57:19 Big up to you, Emma. You know, it’s weird because like the Americans are usually the Puritans, you know, and that’s where I’m from and we are very puritan about it. Whether you think of continental Europeans as being much more open to it. Europeans are much, I mean, to be honest, a lot of the, half the party people that come are Europeans. Okay.
57:35 As opposed to English. Okay. It’s obviously European, but, oh, sort of French and German and Spanish and they’re much more open. But in LA, it’s just, that’s a completely different kind of people. Just a shy person, yeah.
57:45 They’re not even Americans. No. Fucking Californians. When you said, like, the president of the pub’s mind is Eddie Brahe. Do you know what I mean?
57:52 Oh, about that kind of person. Yeah, yeah. I could just picture, like, a whole bunch of Eddie Brahe was at a party like that. You know what I mean? I will tell Eddie about that.
57:59 Yeah. Emma, if people want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way? I mean, through the website. There’s an email through the website. Okay.
58:06 So that’s killingkittens.com. Yeah. For our people listening to us on iTunes. And also, there’s a Twitter at killing underscore kittens. Yeah.
58:13 I believe. And then you are at… I’m on Twitter. And sale, E-M-S-A-Y-L-E. Yeah.
58:18 Join. And maybe you’ll see Nick and I at your next Killing Kittens party. Although I recognize you, there will be more. We’ve had fine girls to go with us. Before we go, guys, to all the listeners and the viewers out there, get your asses on the forum.
58:31 I’m really… I’m answering pretty much every question that’s asked of me or Brian. I’m really trying to get this community going. I really appreciate the feedback we’ve had in the past week from everyone. But I’d really like to see even more active members on that forum.
58:43 Yeah. That’s at londonreal.tv forward slash forums. Yes. And you can go on there and please contribute. Also, please take one minute and give us a review on iTunes.
58:53 Any review is good. If you think we suck, just tell us. And yeah, just write it up there. If you’re listening to this, just pause now and go on to iTunes. And finally, we have some people who were inspired by London Real and have started something called Twin Cities Real out in Chicago.
59:09 In Minnesota. In Minnesota, Minnesota. And it’s pretty good. I listened to it. No, it is pretty good.
59:14 And we’ve got that coming in Victoria, British Columbia. We’ve got actually about five others coming around the world. So maybe Emma is killing kittens real. I’ll race you out of the world. Could be live broadcast.
59:23 Where I go, you go. Do it from your boat. Anyways, Emma, thanks so much for coming in. I didn’t know what to expect, but it was really good to talk to you. It was really good.
59:30 You’re very intelligent and very frank. Thank you very much. And a complete limo. And very real. And a complete info.
59:36 I’ve seen her at those parties. Anyways, thank you.
