Jordan Harbinger - The Art Of Charm

Full transcript: Jordan Harbinger on London Real

0:30 This is London Real. I’m Brian Rose. This is Nick Gabriel, and we are on location in Venice Beach, California with Mr. Jordan Harbinger, who is the creator of The Art of Charm and well-known for the Pickup Podcast. Right on. I’m co-creator, though. I have a whole team that does tons of work, so I don’t want to slight them.

0:59 Obviously, it’s cool being the face of stuff sometimes, but yeah, I can’t be like, yeah, you know, doing it all myself. Far from it. Far from it. Yeah, we should tell the listeners as well that Jordan’s show influenced us. I mean, it was one of the ones along with the Jordan experience that really got us into listening to podcasts.

1:17 Yeah, it was one that I was consistently listening to, the Pickup Podcast, definitely. So, you’ve got a crazy story. I mean, you started kind of like the corporate life, and then you just flipped the script and started Art of Charm. I was wondering if you could tell us about that and the Art of Charm. Yeah, definitely. I mean, first of all, thanks for having me on the show.

1:32 I think it’s awesome that you guys started doing this stuff with my show and our show, and now you’re doing this awesome show, and you got on Rogan and everything. I mean, props there. That’s huge. Thanks. That’s crazy.

1:44 I appreciate you guys having me down here to come and meet you guys. I think it’s awesome. But yeah, I did start in a corporate world, actually. I was a finance attorney on Wall Street, and I know that Brian used to be into finance as well, and it’s a little bit less fun than having a talk show and doing your own thing. But it’s not like the movies you’re talking about.

2:03 Yeah, exactly. You know, the 14-hour days of checking for commas and documents and stuff like that is not as much fun as having cool people on a show and chatting it up. So I actually started the show with AJ, started the podcast show with AJ in the basement, his friend’s basement. Actually, we didn’t even have our own basement in law school. So he was in grad school, and I was in law school at Michigan, and we started it just as a hobby, of course, and it got really popular, and then when I worked on Wall Street, AJ was still in Michigan, but we had the Art of Charm founded as a company, and we were coaching guys, but I was at work all day.

2:38 So I was kind of like this almost like silent partner slash investor, and then the market tanked, and I thought, oh, I’ve got to find a new job and all this, and you know when your heart’s just not in something, you go, yeah, I guess I’ll apply for a job. So a headhunter calls you, and you beat with them, and you get a free lunch out of it, and they’re like, well, what kind of law do you want to do? And you go, eh, whatever. And then you talk to your parents, and they’re like, well, this is a great opportunity for a fresh start.

3:06 What do you want to do? What kind of law do you want to do? What do you want to practice? And you go, I don’t know, you know, whatever. And that’s not exactly the best way to go about starting a new career, is just by being like, well, whatever comes my way. So needless to say, the first few job interviews, I just wasn’t there mentally, and so I thought, you know what, this is going to be an uphill battle.

3:29 I could get another job and lose it in three months. This is a recession in the making, people are saying, because this is, you know, 2007 or 2008. We didn’t know how deep the rabbit hole was. Some of the partners were saying, this is going to be over in like three months. Other people were going, you know, the sky is falling, and the fire and brimstone are right around the corner.

3:48 So I thought, all right, well, if shit’s really going to hit the fan, or already has, and we just don’t know it yet, I’m just going to do what I like, because I’m going to be screwed either way or be fine either way. So I started doing the art of charm full time. AJ moved out from Michigan. We hired a bunch of new staff and just dove in, and business, dot, dot, dot, right? Business took off. It wasn’t instantaneous by any means, but when you work really, really, really hard at something and the idea doesn’t suck, you tend to have good luck with that.

4:19 And that was in New York. That was in New York, yeah. And now we’re in California. We moved out here about three years ago, because one day we woke up and said, why is it winter every year? And we’re paying three times as much money as we need to for rent. Why did we start in New York again?

4:32 Oh, because Jordan had a Wall Street finance job. Well, we don’t need to be here anymore, because that’s over. So let’s move to California. We’ll be there for like six months, just skip winter, and we’ll go right back to New York, because everyone likes it. I just had an idea of mine.

4:46 Yeah, right? Exactly. Yeah, I want to look into it. Highly recommended, by the way. I know London is extremely expensive, and if it’s anything like Michigan slash New York, which I know it is, I used to work in London for this firm called Linklater’s actually, this British law firm. And I know how much it can be crappy for about six to eight months a year.

5:07 And so not only are you dealing with that, but you guys are also not, you’re sitting in the winter, you’re paying twice as much, three times as much as you need to for rent. You could live out in California, just saying. We need a new name for our show. Half and half, dude. We were talking about getting out of there for January, because January is the toughest month in London, because there’s no more Christmas, and it gets pretty cold and dreary.

5:30 Yeah, the sun rises and it goes in this tiny block over the sky, like three hours. Like a fat frog trying to jump. Everyone is depressed, and in this shoot, everyone’s scowling and just wanting it to stop. It is shitty, Brian, let’s be honest. It sounds awesome.

5:47 I mean, you don’t have to change the name, you just be London Real podcast live from California. This is funny, right? It’s like, wait, what part of this is London? Well, he’s from there. All right, fair enough.

5:59 So, do you find doing business different in New York versus LA for what you do as the art of charm? Yeah, I mean, business in general, yes. Doing what we do, teaching guys how to be more confident, charismatic. The clientele are the same, because it’s a global clientele. We get guys from the UK all the time. We have a guy in from Italy, the UK.

6:20 We get a guy from Germany coming in next week. We had a couple Filipino dudes, Asian dudes, European dudes, guys from all over the US and Canada. So, that hasn’t changed as much. In fact, the past couple months, we had South Africans and Australians and New Zealanders and Danish people and Colombians. So, that hasn’t really changed as much.

6:38 The only difference is people from warm climates are more apt to sign up now because they’re not going, Well, it’s so cold in New York, it’s only 60 degrees. I better bring a jacket, you know, and California’s always warm. So, that has helped a little bit. But in terms of the girls and the people that you meet when you’re being social, that’s different. But for the guys, it’s not that different because the same skill sets do apply.

7:00 The difference, I would think, or I would say rather, is that the women in New York are a little bit more driven in Manhattan because it’s really hard to live in Manhattan if you’re working on your actressing skills, right? You know, you can’t just go there and try to make it big unless your dad or mom is bankrolling your entire career. Because rent is three grand if you’re lucky, right? Whereas in California and Hollywood, you can get a crap hole for 500 bucks a month, work as a waitress at some coffee shop or wherever, and you can sort of sputter along for a few years before you burn out.

7:36 In New York, you don’t burn out in two weeks. So, the women must have much more of an edge to them in New York. Yeah, but I like it. I don’t know about you guys. I think it’s great because I’d like to meet somebody who’s like, I’m a writer and it doesn’t mean some day maybe I’d like to sort of get into writing.

7:50 It means, no, I’m making money off of being a writer because otherwise I couldn’t pay my rent in Brooklyn or Manhattan or anywhere near Manhattan for that matter. I’m interested in your opinion, Brian, but it seems to me the people in LA fall into two broad categories. The first is very intelligent, switched on, eco-conscious, just generally decent people, and the other half would just totally fucking nuts. Yeah, or burned out losers. Yeah, I hate saying the word losers because it’s so mean.

8:21 But it’s kind of true. If you’re working or living and working in LA, especially Hollywood, my neighborhood, right? And it doesn’t mean that you have anything going for you whatsoever. I mean, you can live. I’ve gone to people’s houses that I know, and I shouldn’t even admit this, but whatever.

8:37 There’s like a bare mattress on the floor and I’m like, are you moving? And they’re like, no, that’s my bed. And I’m like, no sheets, no pillow. A balled up sweatshirt is your pillow. And the floor’s dirty, the place is filthy.

8:51 I’m like, you live here. Because when I used to work in Detroit, I worked for a security company, and we would raid these crack houses with the cops because the landlord would hire us as his security. So the cops could go in with us without a warrant because we could go in to inspect the premises. And if no one was there or whatever, and there’d be junkies in there, and they would have bare mattresses, no pillow, dirty floor. The only difference between that and some of the people that I know in Hollywood is there’s no hypodermic needle strewn around all over the place in Hollywood.

9:20 And that’s really, that’s like the only difference. And so I’m thinking about, and this isn’t representative of everyone, but there are seemingly normal people who live like that in California. You don’t find that in Manhattan. You don’t find that in New York. In fact, you don’t find that anywhere.

9:36 Yeah, somebody’s sleeping on a bare mattress. They’re pretty down and out. Very rarely is it. Ah, I just haven’t gotten around to bed and sheets yet. I’m busy and stuff.

9:45 What do you do again? You work four hours a day at a bar. You know, everyone used to tell me about the cliche of when you get to Hollywood, when you get to Los Angeles, your waitress will be someone who, she says she’s an actress. Absolutely. And I thought that was a gross exaggeration, but it really is true.

10:04 They’re all trying to break into the entertainment industry, and it’s surreal. What do you think, Brian? It is surreal, and it’s weird. I’ve been here before, so I’m kind of used to it. But yeah, one of my favorite rappers, Ice Tease, and one time he was like, he lives in New York slash Jersey, and he comes out here, and he’s like, dude, in New Jersey, meet a guy, and he’ll be like, I’m a plumber.

10:23 That’s what I do. In LA, that guy is a screenwriter or something. Everyone’s kind of in the biz, which I guess makes it a little crazy. It does, and it’s almost embarrassing because people go, what are you doing? You’re like, well, I’m a talk show host on the radio, or I have this business that does this.

10:40 They’re like, what do you really do? Or what pays the bills? And I’m like, well, that actually does that. And they’re like, oh, really? Because they expect it to be like, well, but what pays the bills is my job at the post office.

10:50 Like, no, no, it’s not really like that. So you say that in New York, and they’re like, wow, that’s really cool. Here they’re like, uh-huh, sure, sure you do that. Sure, that’s your job. OK.

11:00 All right. See you at Equinox when you’re behind the front desk, buddy. That’s what they’re thinking. You can see it in their head. Who, in your opinion, out of people on West Coast and East Coast, who likes to party more?

11:11 Um, you know, I think that on the West Coast, people like to party more often. And they like to be more showy when they do it. But on the East Coast, there’s people that party all the time, and they party pretty heavy duty, especially like stockbrokers, lawyers, anybody. And in the Wall Street niche, I know just firsthand experience. Those guys party really hard, because if you’re working 14-hour days, seven days a week, and maybe you get a day off that month, you’re not going, um, stretch out, hit up some Netflix.

11:40 No way. You’re going, all right, I made 40 grand this month. I’m willing to spend at least five plus going balls to the wall with all my friends. So you’ll be going out, you know, when we were there, we would go out, and we would go to a club, and we’d get a table, and we’d get 15 frickin’ bottles for like, you know, eight dudes. And, you know, girls are drinking most of it anyway.

12:03 But you’re blacked out by like 10, 30 p.m., you know, and you’re just like, you don’t remember half the night, and you wake up like wherever some, your buddy’s like, you know, apartment or something, like in the hallway. I mean, there’s, that’s hardcore stuff, and, you know, you look at the photos, it’s like the hangover. You look at the photos from everybody uploaded to Facebook, and you’re like, when did we eat ramen? And where, how did we get sushi at 3 a.m.?

12:27 How did that happen? Yeah, I mean, he’s right in the city in London, too. Everyone parties really hard. Thursday’s the big night. You go out, you try to crush yourself, and then everyone drags themselves in for Friday morning.

12:38 Yeah. But yeah, that is what you’re right. That is what they do. Friday mornings on Wall Street are pretty slow. If your phone rings, it’s important, because whoever’s calling you is like, hey, man, that fax never came in last night, and you’re like, oh, son of a bitch.

12:54 So then you know you’re gonna be there through Saturday or whatever. But normally it’s pretty quiet on Wall Street until about 10, 30, 11, or even later on a Friday, because everybody stayed up till 5 o’clock in the morning, getting fucked up for sure. So can you tell us more about the art of charm? And I know it started off as kind of like, not a pickup type thing, but it’s kind of evolved into something more. Yeah.

13:18 Am I right with that? Yeah, absolutely. We started off just, the pickup podcast was just me and AJ talking about our dating lives, because he had this killer dating life, and kind of a, he didn’t have that many male friends, because he was always- So to interrupt you, AJ is your brother, right? Yeah, AJ is business partner and co-host on the show. Okay.

13:36 So he had this killer dating life, and he also had not as many close buddies, because his buddies would always view him as a threat, or he just had a hard time relating to dudes, and he would butt heads with them a lot. Whereas I had tons of close friends, but I was just such a clueless a-hole with chicks. I didn’t know what to do. I always had girlfriends that were cute, but it was kind of like they decided that it was time for me to be their boyfriend, and I was like, okay, right?

14:02 Okay. And that was okay for a while, but after a while you’re like, man, I wish one of these girls that I really liked would pick me, and then AJ’s like, what are you talking about? Why would that happen? You pick the girl, it doesn’t happen the other way around, and so he would sort of school me on the, and he would school me like crazy, and I’d be doing research on learning psychology, and so would he, and we’d be talking about this stuff like five hours a day, we’d be talking, talking, talking at the bar, and applying stuff.

14:27 We went out every night for a year, like six nights a week or something ridiculous when we were in Michigan, and the other patrons of the bar, the dudes would be like, we always see you with chicks. You guys are ridiculous. Like, how are you doing this? And we’d be like, well, you know, there’s this whole system that we’re kind of working with here, and this is seven-plus years ago now, and so they’d be like, all right, I’m buying you guys booze all night, just tell me, show me how this works.

14:51 So we would do that a lot, and guys would be like, write a book, write a book. He’s in grad school, I’m in law school. We’re already reading, studying 10 hours a day. Nobody’s writing a book about anything anytime soon. So we never bothered to do that, but we did talk and teach a lot, and then we heard about this thing called podcasting because we’re like, we should really be putting this down.

15:13 Like, we got to put this down on, not on paper, but it’s got to get recorded. It’s got to get memorialized somehow. So how come we’re buying the exact same thing? Right? That’s how this thing works.

15:24 You’re just like, it’s so cool and awesome. Yeah. And somebody would want to listen to our conversation. Somebody, we’re arrogant enough to think other people are interested in our conversations. It takes a healthy amount of ego to start your own podcast.

15:35 It does. And so we started that and we’re like, all right, let’s just let this fly how it is, and 30 people are going to listen, and whenever people ask us about it, we’ll just be like, hey, download these 20 episodes. We’ll probably be done by then. So 200 episodes later, we’re almost there. We’re like at 180 or something right now.

15:53 How long is that? How many years? It’s been five years. Five years? Yeah.

15:57 Wow. Yeah. So it hasn’t been every single week, but it’s been, you know, we had some hiatus and stuff and we were working on lots of stuff or like tech issues where our servers would explode. We’re just like, ah, screw it. We’re going back.

16:07 We’ll do it in a month. And so, you know, we did it. We’ve done a ton of episodes and we’ve basically just created this huge amount of curriculum. And you’re right. It’s not necessarily about picking up girls.

16:21 In fact, it kind of never was. It started off as, wow, why are girls so crazy to, all right, I’m starting to get this social thing, not just with girls, but with people in general, to here’s some crazy crap we’re doing with girls all the time and here’s how you can do it too. And then onto, hey, what about starting a business? This business guy’s really interesting. Let’s interview him.

16:41 Let’s interview this C-list celebrity. Let’s interview this author of this book we read that we really liked. Let’s interview this person who’s doing this really interesting project. And it became kind of a lifestyle building thing because what we discovered is not only are women interested in guys that have their shit together in all other areas of their life, like a guy can be as smooth as he wants, but as soon as the girl finds out that you have a crappy job that you hate and you’re out of shape and you don’t care.

17:07 You live on a bare mattress. Yeah, you live on a bare mattress of those sheets in Hollywood. She’s going to be like, I don’t know if I want to be a part of this guy’s world, right? So also, just us as men, once we got that kind of handled and we’re like, okay, we’re not scared to talk to girls anymore, or at least I was not scared to talk to girls anymore. Asia was never scared to talk to girls.

17:25 Then we thought, okay, what else? Well, I want to get in shape and I want to run a business more smoothly. And this, you know, principle of whatever that I read about was really interesting. And I want to travel and I want to work remotely and I want to learn about this person’s lifestyle and how this person makes their decisions because they’re really rich and successful. So we started interviewing those guys and our audience, we thought, we’ll do one of these every now and again and our audience will probably complain, but whatever.

17:52 It’s a good excuse to talk to these people. And what happened instead was people went, so glad you’re moving on from just the dating stuff. This guy was awesome. You should talk to this guy. I read his book and it’s great.

18:02 And you should talk to this girl because she gave a talk at my university and it’s really awesome. So we started assembling all those people. And what happened was the show turned into a lifestyle show and we get the occasional complaints. It’s like, you’re not talking about picking up chicks anymore and like, go back to the first 100 episodes. There’s plenty of information there.

18:20 You don’t need to hear any more of it. Because your first 30 episodes are a lot of the building blocks, aren’t they? And I’ve heard you and you’re like, look, if you’re new to this show, go back and listen to the first 10, which is kind of cool. Right. And kind of get in touch with the basics, the lingo and all that stuff.

18:34 Right. Like you get the lingo down, you understand, like there’s less lingo to be had, but you understand like, okay, body language, vocal tonality, eye contact, got it. Go start applying that stuff in field. Then listen to Damon John from Shark Tank talk about how he makes investment decisions. And you’re like, oh, that’s a really smart dude.

18:52 I love how he compartmentalizes this. So now you’re having success in your business or you’re having success going, you know what? I hate my job. I’m going to start my own thing. Look at all these other people that have done that, that have been on this show, this podcast.

19:03 I’m going to take some of their wisdom and kick it off. Now, those guys are really loyal to the show because we’re looking out for their best interests, not just trying to teach them how to get it wet or get it in. You know what I mean? Like, that’s great, that’s cool. And when you don’t have women, it’s like the number one thing on your mind.

19:18 But once you get that sort of handled, you’re like, all right, I don’t know if I need to talk about this for an hour every week now. Maybe I want to hear about body language and stuff still, but maybe I want to learn to see if people are lying to me instead or I want to learn how to make a good first impression of my boss. You know, I’ve got a girlfriend now. I don’t need to listen to AJ and Jordan chat about it all the time. So business is your main interest now?

19:40 Not just business. I think the last few episodes, ones were divorced men because a lot of guys were writing in and going, love your stuff, toolbox was great, using that stuff every day, but I’m in a unique situation. I’m divorced, I have kids, my ex-wife has moved on, I don’t know what to do, how do I get back in the game? 30 pounds overweight, I don’t know how to dress anymore. There’s this thing called the internet people are dating on.

19:59 Excuse me. And it’s like, you know, guys are like, I didn’t meet my wife on the internet, I met her frigging in college. I’m not in college anymore, I don’t want to meet girls. I don’t want to meet the women that I work with at General Motors. I want to meet these other girls, and now I’m not surrounded by young girls anymore.

20:18 I’m not 22, I’m 42. You know, what do I do now? And so I said, I don’t know, let’s get our divorce coach on here because one of our coaches, Kim, she’s divorced, has two kids, and is a licensed therapist. So we’re like, well, she’s fully qualified to talk about this. So we had her on the show, we had another author on the show, Olivia Fox Cabana.

20:38 She’s this badass coach who teaches executives at Google or wherever and world leaders how to be more charismatic and outgoing. So when you see a guy like Hugo Chavez or something, probably shouldn’t associate her with him because I have no idea if they’ve ever worked together. But you see some world leader who’s really charismatic, you know, he didn’t just wake up one day and have that. Somebody taught him how to do that, and that’s kind of what she does.

21:03 And she charges like 175 grand for like her coaching package. So that’s insane, right? Like she’s the charisma coach, and she wrote an awesome book about all that stuff. So we interviewed her because normal guys like us can’t have access to her. We just don’t have the cake for that, right?

21:20 And then we’d interview somebody else like Damon John from Shark Tank and he’s talking about his business acumen and how he got it from hustling. He never went to college, but he’s got like three and a half billion dollars in sales from Fubu and all those associated brands. And he got it because he’d wake up on the floor in his apartment just like we are doing our stuff back in the day and he’d be sewing on the sewing machines before the Chinese ladies got in to finish sewing his jeans.

21:45 And then he got that to this massive global brand where he’s like, I mean, he’s obviously one of the most successful business guys that you’ll see on TV. What common characteristic have you noticed about all the successful people that you’ve interviewed? One of the things I’ve noticed is there’s a couple things that we’ve talked a little bit about on the show too. And one of the most common characteristics is they don’t take no for an answer. And I don’t mean that as in they just refuse to honor people or respect people when they don’t want to do something.

22:17 It’s just that somebody will go, yeah, I don’t think that’s going to work. And they go, well, I don’t know that you know that. I don’t believe that you know that. Or somebody will go, well, you know, that idea, that’s not going to happen. I’m not going to help you with that.

22:30 Forget it. And they go, I’m going to try anyway. And there’s a difference between having somebody who’s like your mom say that idea is no good because she’s looking to protect you. She doesn’t necessarily know if it’s good or not. Or a couple of your friends saying, I don’t know if that idea is any good, versus somebody who’s a seasoned mentor.

22:49 If Damon John says, hey, I love what you’re doing with the show, but this direction that you’re going is no good, I would listen to him most likely because he’s probably already tried stuff like that. So the difference is if they see somebody being a naysayer and that person has not tried that particular angle or doesn’t necessarily have the qualification to tell them it’s not going to work but it’s just their gut and they’re not an entrepreneur, they go, I don’t really care about that. I’m not going to listen to that.

23:16 And we had that same issue. You know, people were like, you need to get a real job. You can’t just run your own company. You don’t have any experience. You don’t even have an MBA.

23:24 And now I meet MBAs who are like, man, I don’t know anything about business. I know all about Excel spreadsheets, but I don’t know how to run a business. Do you have an MBA by any chance? I don’t, but I know what you’re talking about. You know what I’m talking about.

23:36 I took most classes in MBA school, but they don’t have to run a business until you run your own business. Right. I remember I did a computer course when I just got out of high school. It was an MCSE networking course and one of the instructors said, he said if I was looking for an MCSE engineer, I wouldn’t want to see his qualification. I’d want to see what he’s done.

23:55 How many networks he’s worked on. And it’s the same with any other career or business. I mean, it’s like, what have you done? Yeah. I mean, not what have you read or what certificate do you have on yours?

24:06 What have you done in the world? Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of guys who want to work for the Art of Charm. We get every day somebody wants to work here.

24:13 And usually they’re like, yeah, I’m really good with chicks. I’m like, I don’t care. You know what I mean? Like anyone I can reach out anywhere and find guys that are good with girls that have been through my class that know how this stuff works, that have been through our programs. I want somebody who goes, hey, I’m a really good graphic designer.

24:29 I know how to code JavaScript. I found an error on your website that I think I can fix. It’s pretty unusual, but it’s going to be quick and it’s going to help your site load faster. That’s the kind of person where I’m like, cool, how much do you want to make that happen? And usually they go, I’ll do that one for free.

24:45 But next time you have an issue like this, just promise that you’ll call me. Those are the people that get in the door because I don’t care if someone’s like, yeah, you know, I went to school and I have a degree in this. Well, that’s just, that’s great. But I’m going to let somebody else invest in the first three to five years of your career because I know when I was a lawyer on Wall Street, I added no value. I took a nice fat salary and added no value.

25:10 I mean, you’re billing out on an hourly rate when you do work for clients, but there’s nothing that I was doing that probably a high schooler couldn’t do, a responsible high schooler couldn’t do. Equally well. I mean, most of your day is checking for commas and documents, writing stuff that you’ve written a hundred times before that I didn’t learn in law school that I just learned by doing and having people check it over. So you add no value in the beginning.

25:33 You just learn about the corporate world. The concept of value keeps popping up with our guests. Have you noticed that, Brian? Yeah, definitely. What does that mean to you?

25:40 It’s just a question I asked another guest. You know what? That’s a great question. And it’s something that, it’s one of those words, it’s almost like a buzzword, but it evolves over time. A lot of people think, I don’t have any value because I don’t have any money.

25:52 And that’s sort of like the amateurish way to look at it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, if you’re out there going, oh, value means money. Jordan said it’s not. I’m a dick, right?

26:00 Like, it’s not that at all. I understand that. A lot of guys, just to put an example on it, a lot of guys who are younger writing, they’re like, I’m looking for a job, but the market sucks and I have no value. I’m new. I just graduated from college and I graduated from a good school, but so did 4,000 of my classmates.

26:19 And how do I compete with them? I don’t offer any value. Or they go to a networking event and they don’t offer any value. And what that means to them is, well, I can’t go and talk to Joe Rogan and be like, hey man, I’m going to help you out. Get some traffic for your show because their show has 10 viewers and Joe Rogan’s has 10,000 every hour.

26:40 You know what I mean? Or 10 million. Who knows how many that guy has. So they’re not going to be able to offer them anything. But that same person, that same kid, might be able to go, but I did look at your site and there’s this widget on there that’s causing it to load three seconds slower for every single person that logs on.

26:57 It’s costing you guys server time on your host and running your bill up for that. It’s probably costing you 300 bucks a year just because it’s using a lot of CPU cycles. And Joe Rogan or we, for example, if we heard that go, whatever that means, I don’t know. You’re telling me you want to save me 300 bucks a year by telling me that there’s something on my site that I maybe don’t even need, that you can tell me how to remove or make faster. Cool, man, that’s value, right?

27:22 And it’s not just because he saved me money and it’s not because he decided to do it for free. It’s because I wouldn’t have known that otherwise. I could have gone 10 years and had that same error and I never would have found it out myself. That’s value. And that’s something that a high school kid could tell me because he knows more about it.

27:37 We had another guy go, hey man, you should upload some of your audio to YouTube and just put pictures behind it and then you’ll have your podcast kind of on YouTube and it’s really easy. And so I hired someone to do that for four bucks a video in the Philippines and now we get a crapload of search traffic from YouTube and click throughs from YouTube. And that’s something that I never in a billion years would have thought of, but this kid is 20. So it was like, dude, why aren’t you on YouTube?

28:02 Are you stupid? And I’m like, no, I’m just 32. I don’t know anything about this. It’s ultimately value could be equated with knowledge. Absolutely.

28:10 It could be equated with knowledge. Another thing is that we really commonly talk about is guys go, I don’t know how to network. When I go to networking events, I’m in college and I’m sitting there rubbing elbows with Jordan Harbinger and the guys from OneReel and Joe Rogan and Damon John, I’m using the same names just because they’re coming up in our conversation here. But that kid goes, I got nothing to offer here. These guys all have businesses.

28:31 They all have their stuff going on. There’s nothing I can offer them. And then the savvy kid goes, actually, maybe you’re looking for guests on your show. Well, yeah, always, right? And he goes, well, my friend’s cousin, he went to college with the lead singer of Offspring or whatever, and he go, oh, crap, he used to love that band back in the day.

28:53 Sure, yeah, if you can get me in touch with his people and put in a good word, that’d be great. And we’ve had stuff like that happen where they go, yeah, I don’t know if you’re interested in this, but my friend’s cousin’s dad’s friend is Doug, the bounty hunter. And you’re like, dude, definitely want that connection. Are you kidding? You had a dog on there.

29:09 Yeah, you had a dog on there. I was like, holy shit. And it’s just like, yeah, it has nothing to do with our topic, but what a cool way to get somebody in the door that normally would have gone, I’m not doing a show called Pick Up Podcast. No way. But then the kid goes, no, no, seriously, it’s cool.

29:22 I listen to it. These guys are legit. They’re not going to embarrass you or do something stupid. Then you get a guest like that on the show. That’s valued.

29:28 Another point of value, a lot of guys ask about, they’re like, well, these recruiters come to my school and they’re looking to hire, right? And I don’t know how to differentiate myself or add value there, because I just hand in my resume like everyone else. And so I gave them a couple of tricks. One of the tricks that I use for some of the Michigan business guys, the undergrad guys, when the recruiter comes, the guy will come up and say, hi, you know, my name is so-and-so, it was nice to meet you.

29:52 Thanks for coming to our school to hire from our student pool. It means a lot to us, as you know, the market stuff. I’m really interested as a student in whatever their company might be doing, their JavaScript applications. And I’m really looking into marketing heavily through the social media or whatever the kids are doing these days, right? But the difference is the recruiter goes, yeah, okay, fine, you and everybody else.

30:16 But the kid goes, by the way, I know you guys aren’t from Ann Arbor. What are you guys looking to eat tonight? And the guy goes, actually, I haven’t thought about it. Well, if you like steak, this is the best place in town. If you like sandwiches, deli sandwiches, Zingerman’s is the best place in town for that.

30:32 The best place for cocktails, if you guys want to blow up some steam afterwards, is this place. I ordered this. They use this in this mix, and it’s really good, and the bartender invented that drink, and it’s really solid. Here are those places. Here’s where they are.

30:43 Here’s the cross streets. You can use your phone to find it. My name is Jordan Harbinger, and I really like to work for your company. Obviously, you know, enjoy your time in Ann Arbor. Who do you think gets an email back?

30:53 Who do you think that recruiter remembers when he gets the follow-up email? Because 10% of those kids are not going to send anything anyway. If you’re one of the 10% that sends a follow-up email, thanks for coming to the school, and they go, oh, that was John. He’s the kid who told us about the cocktail place and got us that solid dinner. That’s great.

31:10 That’s the kid that they call back though, right? Because not only are they like, hey, this kid did us a solid by getting us fed, they know that this kid’s going to follow up, right? All the other kids are like, please call me and hire me. This kid’s like, I’m giving you value. I’m being proactive.

31:27 That’s the kind of person that if you’re going to be stuck in an airport with somebody for 12 hours, it’s called the airport rule, by the way. Consultants use this. Have you heard of this? We used to do it on Wall Street is, do you want to sit next to this guy rule? So when you interview these kids, you’d be like, okay, what would you sit next to him?

31:44 Right. It’s similar to that guy. Yes, the airport rule for consultants, right? They go, if I had to be stuck at JFK airport for seven straight hours on a layover, would I want it to be with this guy or would I want it to be with this guy? And usually that’s the deciding factor when people have resumes, even if they’re totally different.

32:02 One guy might have an MBA from one school that’s awesome, amazing, well-renowned. Other guy doesn’t, but he’s got one from some other place. He meets the basic qualifications, but everyone likes this guy. Everyone thinks this guy’s a tool. They’re never going to hire that tool if they can avoid it because they know that if you sign on that dotted line and then he’s working on a project with you and you’re stuck with him for three weeks in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in a frickin’ Howard Johnson, you are going to hate yourself for hiring that guy.

32:31 It sounds silly, but there’s so much subjectivity in these processes. Absolutely. And it all comes down to the simple thing of do they like you? Do they like you? And it could be like the highest Wall Street thing and they want a job to hire a derivatives trader and they look at your resume and at the end of the day they’ll be like, do I like this guy?

32:45 Yeah, because it doesn’t matter. When it comes down to comparable levels of education and experience and things like that, it really doesn’t matter because the people who are hiring you, when we were hiring for Wall Street, that’s what we’re looking for. She was kind of cute, seemed fun. Yeah, I’d work a deal with her for 20 hours a day for the next five days if I had to. She seems cool.

33:08 This person’s really positive. They seem cool. And then there’s the other guy who comes in and is really annoying or has awkward ticks like he won’t touch the water because you poured it before he walked in so he doesn’t think it’s safe. That guy’s going to be a huge pain in the ass. We’re not hiring this guy.

33:23 Even if he’s got three years of experience more than everybody else and he went to Harvard Law, you’re like, no thanks. This guy’s going to be super douchey and annoying. I remember something I think was from your podcast where you said that when you get sent something from someone like a letter or something wanting to do something for you, you take it and stick it in one box and when they send you another request, you put it in the second box and then when you get a third request, you put it in the third box and then finally you’ll actually read it just to see if the persistent people will keep going.

33:55 Oh yeah, yeah. Do you actually do that? I do that, yeah. In fact, the other day I got a letter from somebody who was like, I really want to edit video for you. And I was like, hey, how did you find our show?

34:05 Where are you located? No response about the video deleted it, right? Then a couple days later he’s like, oh, I live in Charleston, South Carolina. Anyway, I thought it would be really cool if you did this and this and this and this and this and I’m happy to edit that video for you. And I go, sounds kind of interesting.

34:20 How would that process look? Delete. And then I never heard back from that person and I thought, okay, well, that’s exactly what I wanted to see because if I said, great, yeah, edit video for us, here’s a bunch of stuff, do you really think that they’re going to get back to me with that once I give them a workload, if they can’t send a third email with their actual ideas and how it would look? They’re too lazy to outline the process. Something tells me they’re too lazy to edit 18 hours of video.

34:47 But there’ll be another guy who goes, hey, do you want this author on your show? Because I think, or no, they go, you should have this person on your show, they’re interesting. I get that all the time. And I go, yeah, sure, sounds good, do you know them? Well, no, I don’t.

35:00 Okay, well, if you can find their contact info, send them an email that introduces them to me and discuss why you think that they should be on my show in that same email, I’ll totally interview that person. One in 10 of those actually follows through. It’s just these, so many people don’t even have just the basic communication skills. I get emails sometimes saying, going the other day saying, from some guy in Thailand saying, hey, I was told you train in London, I’m coming through for this comp next week.

35:28 And that’s all it said. So, I mean, I just said, that’s good to know. Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to deal with someone like that. It’s like, that’s interesting. Yes, I’m big on spelling too.

35:40 Oh, yeah, totally. It’s not spelled right. I’m like, dude, if you can’t spell right, I don’t even know if you can get out of bed in the morning. My favorite is… Let’s do a spell check.

35:49 Right, yeah. It’s like, dude, there’s a big red line under this word. Maybe I want to look into that. Another thing that I hate is, and it’s funny, I heard a bunch of older dudes talking about this at an event. I went to a computer hacker event last weekend where I gave a talk about something called social engineering.

36:07 And all of these older guys… Yeah, we could talk about that in a second. These older guys who work for like Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, and they’re like these info security guys, hackers, and they do all kinds of crazy stuff like NSA and all this badass stuff. They’re like, I actually didn’t hire this highly qualified candidate because the email that he sent me said… It was something, it’s gonna be hard to verbalize, but it was an email where it was all written in like text speak, where it was like, you are company sounds so cool.

36:39 It was like two O’s and so cool. I really, R-L-Y, want to, number two, work there. P-L-Z, get back to me as soon as you make your own decision. And the guy was just like, delete. And he even, he felt bad about it because he’s like, am I being too hard on the kid?

36:59 And he called him and he goes, this is why we didn’t hire you. You’re totally qualified for the job, but this email makes you look like a dumb ass. And can you imagine being that kid and getting that news from your employer, or your prospective employer, like you’ve dreamed of working in the info security department of Raytheon for like the past few years. It’s a six figure job for sure. And the guy goes, you’re so qualified.

37:22 I’m not hiring you because you’re looking an idiot when you write emails. When you hear the term social engineering, what’s the first thing that pops into your mind? That is, well, besides the podcast that I run with the social engineer guys, there’s a social engineer podcast. What it is is social engineering in general is, there’s a guy named Kevin Mitnick from back in the day, he’s one of the most famous ones. Basically it’s human hacking.

37:46 And so guys who’ve seen the movie Hackers, probably know about some aspect of that. And essentially what it is is security systems, this is one of the premises of the talk that I gave, security systems are super advanced, right? Like if you wanted to crack into eBay or Chase Bank, you would have your work cut out for you probably. I don’t know anything about the technical aspects of that, but there’s encryption involved. There’s all kinds of server backups and data and checks and alarms probably when people access certain files.

38:16 And if you download the password file, somebody gets alerted somewhere in real time and they locate you using your IP and call the cops and whatever, right? But if I call that bank IT division who runs the security department or runs the website and I go, hey, this is Joe down in IT in the server room. I can’t seem to access this server with all this encrypted data on it. Would you mind resetting my password and I happen to have the right information to get a password reset?

38:47 Then it doesn’t matter how carefully constructed the verification systems are, if the data’s all encrypted. If I pose to someone else successfully, then there it goes. And one of the largest security companies in the world actually got hacked using social engineering. And it’s one of the most common ways that banks lose money, that financial institutions lose money, that large corporations lose money, is because somebody somewhere found enough information. It’s how Scarlett Johansson, I think it was, got all those naked pictures stolen out of her email account because she posted a bunch of stupid stuff on social media, like her dog’s name, her birthday is readily available, where she went to high school.

39:24 All those things are available either on social media or the internet. So when you go to your Gmail and you go, gee, I forgot my password, what did I ask you? Your pet’s name, your high school, your best friend as a kid. But if you’ve been following that person on Twitter and you did your Google stalking adequately, you can find the answers to those questions. So right now, if you are the kind of person who uses like, what’s your pet’s name, is your security question, you might want to go in and edit that.

39:48 Because what I’ll do is I’ll just call you and say, hey, I found your dog. Oh, no, I’m on vacation. Where’s my dog? It’s supposed to be, you know, my dog’s supposed to be home right now. Yeah, I think your dog is outside.

40:00 What’s your dog’s name? I’ll call him and see if he runs over. Oh, it’s Kewpie. Hey, Kewpie, come over here. Oh, I’m sorry, you know, and I’m posing as your neighbor or somebody in your neighborhood or your boss or whatever.

40:09 I mean, that’s a really easy way to do it. Now I know your dog’s name. Or maybe you tweeted about your dog. Or maybe you tagged your dog on Facebook. So there’s a whole business for this now?

40:18 Well, what it is is what my talk was about was, I had heard about a lot of defense contractors being looking for jobs on LinkedIn. And I found that I could find whole groups of top secret level security cleared contractors on LinkedIn. And so what I did is I went in that group and I joined posing as a top secret level security cleared contractor. And I was able to get their private information using social engineering tactics, namely by posing as a job recruiter because they’re looking for jobs.

40:50 So I said, hey, I don’t want to email this to your work email. Can you send me your personal email address so I can send you info about our project and our company? And they’re like, yeah, sure. That’s a normal request for a job on it. And they didn’t ask their boss anything because if you’re looking for a new job, you don’t go, hey, boss, if someone calls from me, it’s probably that job recruiter because I’m quitting as soon as I can.

41:09 You don’t tell anyone. So I’ve got you in a vacuum, right? And what I can do then is take that private email address and plug it into Facebook or another program or even Google and I find the forums that you’re on where you talk about phishing. I find the forum you’re on where you talk about your boat and what it looks like and you post pictures of it and I know that you go there every weekend to this lake and I know you’re not going to be home then. And I know that you go there with your buddies and I know who your buddies are because we talk about it on this forum.

41:34 I add you on Facebook as a separate profile, some girl or something like that. You add her in. If you ask how you know her, she says, I don’t know, Facebook suggested we be friends. Whatever, right? So now I can see your pictures.

41:45 I know where you live. I can look on Yelp for your reviews. I know where you drink your coffee. I know where you eat your pizza because you love Aldo’s Pizza on 4th and Main. You scare me now.

41:55 Right? So now I know, right? I know where you go. I know where you work out. I can see where you check in on Foursquare or Facebook or I can see your tweet and go, hate it when I’m at the gym on the treadmill and all the treadmills are full.

42:05 So now I know you’re at the gym at Equinox, you know, La Brea. I know that’s where you are. I know that’s where you work out. These guys would actually go and wait out, hang out for a go. Well, what’s that?

42:14 The guys would actually go and do that like a stalker girl using stuff like that. Well, it wouldn’t be a girl, right? I mean, maybe it would. That’s creepy. But what I was using it for was, now I know all this personal information about this person.

42:26 So if I wanted to, now I have enough information to run like a background check or even look into other things. And so what I can do is then go, all right, well, you’re perfect for this job. And I can tailor the job to exactly what I think they would like based on their interests, which I already know through this fake Facebook profiles and their social media. So I can be like, yeah, we’d also really need you to travel, but you’ll be traveling mostly to our location on the Great Lakes.

42:50 And the guy goes, oh, shit, I love fishing. This is going to be epic if I get this gig. They’re going to send me to the Great Lakes region every month. Draw them any further. Draw them as much information as possible.

42:59 They can’t wait to take this job. They can’t even wait. So I go, great. Well, all we need is a preliminary background check because it is a security cleared position. Here’s the form.

43:08 And of course, the form is all official looking and requires your mother’s maiden name or social security number, your address, your name, which I already have. So now I’ve got that. And what do I do? I look and see, all right, do you have a PayPal account that I can log into? Oh, gee, I don’t know my password.

43:23 What’s your security question? What’s your pet’s name? Well, I got that. I have my social security. I can call the bank and request a password for recess and all that information about you, right?

43:32 So now I know, now once I get into your bank account, I can see how much money you make each pay period so I can estimate your yearly salary and I can tell you that I’m going to pay you 20 grand more for this new job. So it’s like identity fraud. Identity fraud, right? Yeah, anything like that. So with that recruiting angle, it’s tricky because if you actually get someone into a recruiting scenario, they’ll tell you a lot about their company that they wouldn’t.

43:52 That’s what I was going for. That’s the information I wanted, right? So once I got into their bank records, I could see a lot of people auto debit either from their credit cards or even direct from their bank. They do their mobile carrier. And this is one of the sneakiest things, right?

44:05 Because if you guys have your AT&T cell phone bill or your, you know, O2 in the UK mobile bill, right? Now I can go, oh, well, I know that you use O2. Let me log into O2 using your phone number. Well, now I can look at your call logs. Who do you call all the time?

44:20 Hmm. There’s five numbers here that you call all the time. Who are these people? Now I call those people. I find out one’s your mom, one’s your girlfriend, one’s your office, and one’s your secretary.

44:29 So now I know that those are the people that are closest to you. I know that they know where you are. I know that they have information about you. I know that you might even be hanging out with them more than other people I can find out where they live too. What’s the end goal here?

44:42 Well, the end goal for my talk, my experiment was I wanted to get to the point just up to the point where I could elicit confidential information from these people. Okay. I didn’t do that because that would be illegal, classified information, not confidential. Confidential, anybody can get that. Classified is a big deal, right?

45:00 So these people all had clearances, and so what I did is it got to the point where they were ready to come and meet me, and it sometimes did actually meet me, and were ready to talk about some of what they were doing. Because if I want an aerospace engineer that works for Raytheon to come and work on a project that I’m working on that involves magnetic propulsion for projectiles that are maybe fired from the sea, there’s going to be a handful of people, right, that know that information, and anything that they tell me is going to be pretty damn good, because they’re the guys who designed the anti-missile laser system that’s ship mounted, right? And then I’m going to be able to get the problems that they’re having with this project, how close they are to completion of a working prototype, how much it costs to develop, all that stuff.

45:44 Is this like a side interest for you? Yeah, it’s a side interest for me. But you still do Art of Charm stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Art of Charm is my primary thing.

45:51 What’s your day in, day out with Art of Charm? What are you actually doing all day for that business? For the Art of Charm, I wake up in the morning, I confirm all my daily appointments, because I talk to everyone that comes through a program before they come through. And especially individualized, what, like coaching? Yeah, it’s individualized coaching.

46:08 So guys come and live at the Art of Charm headquarters for a week, or three days, or whatever they do, they can split it up. And some guys just do phone coaching, but obviously that’s not as useful as the live programs. Sounds like Fight Club. It kind of, yeah, people say that all the time. But I don’t want somebody who’s going to come in for a week and just be a weirdo, or hate women, or be negative, or be annoying, or be a dick.

46:29 So you turn people away. So I turn people away all the time. And so I have screening calls a lot of the day with people that are interested in coming to the Art of Charm. One of some red flags you get that tell you this guy’s not going to be right for your program. Guys who use disrespectful language towards women especially.

46:42 So if a guy’s like, I want to fuck bitches. I’m like, nope, see you later. Guys who are like, well, you know, all women do this and women are, you know, they always have the upper hand. So I want to regain some of my power. This is a guy who feels powerless.

46:57 We’ll give you power with people. I don’t want to give you power over people if you’re going to misuse it. It’s silly. So a lot of guys who are feeling burned by the opposite sex, I want them to kind of calm the hell down before they come through. Some guys feel burned, but they don’t necessarily want to act on it.

47:13 They go, I know I did something wrong. I just don’t know what it is. That’s why my wife left. That guy’s welcome at the Art of Charm. The guy who goes, women are all cheating bitches.

47:21 That guy’s not welcome at the Art of Charm because what he’s going to do is take the skill set and go and burn a bunch of women because it’ll make him feel better about himself. Have you ever had somebody backfire on you? No. Or have you ever tried someone that later you were like, I wish I hadn’t. No, no.

47:36 So you’re quite an exclusive group of guys that you train. Yeah. It’s quite a high price point as well. It is a high price point. And that keeps it exclusive.

47:44 We don’t have the high price point because we only want rich guys in the program. We offer financing, so college guys will come through. So we get a lot of entrepreneurs and an interesting mix of guys. But it is a high price point because if you just want to get laid, there’s no way you’re going to pay for our program. But if you want the full life transformation where you get the confidence, you change the way you sit, stand, walk, talk, everything, you want the connections that come with our alumni network, then you see the value.

48:10 If you see the value in those things, those are the guys who will foot the bill for the program, depending on which program it is. What I find is so many people have such cheap skates because they don’t have long-term vision. Exactly. They’re short-sighted. Also with a high price point, you might find that guys take it much more seriously.

48:25 I mean, if it’s a big price point, they’re like, okay. They do. That’s what I was telling you about. Yeah. What’s that?

48:31 Perceived equity. Perceived value, perceived equity. If a guy goes, this is going to change my whole life moving forward, I don’t care if I have to spend a ton of my personal disposable income to do this, even though I’m in college. I’ll do this. I’ll pay it off over a year.

48:46 Those guys get the value. But if they’re like, I just want to be able to get it in all the time with chicks, bro, they’re hot. Then he goes, I’m not paying that. I can download an e-book off the internet and learn how to do that, which obviously you know that that doesn’t work. The example I was thinking of is if there’s Art of Charm and then right next door there’s a school called Sexual Crusaders or whatever.

49:08 If you guys are charging $500 and Sexual Crusaders is charging $100, most people actually say to themselves, hmm, why is this guy so cheap? There must be something wrong with it. I’m going to go with Art of Charm. It happens all the time. A lot of people come in and they go, I’ve looked at every company in the industry and you know that you’re way more expensive.

49:28 And I go, yeah, I do know that. And they go, well, I’ll pay you this much. And I go, nope, not a good fit. See you later. Because I don’t want somebody who wants to compete on price because that means that they see our value is here and they see the other company’s value is here when really I know that our value is way up here.

49:45 So I’m not going to go, well, I’ll only charge you this much so that you feel comparable because you’re not looking for the rest of this. You’re not looking for the difference. You’re looking to just get a comparable angle to this. So why not just go with the person that you’ve already found? And how long do you spend with you?

50:00 We’ve got about seven or eight minutes left. How long do you spend with the guys to get them kind of trained up? 60 hours over the course of six days. Six days, okay. So you have a ton of drills and exercises in the classroom and then you have three nights in field and three days in field.

50:16 And what that means is you go out with us as coaches and also the wing women and all the staff and we take notes on your body language, vocal tonality, eye contact, the way you sit, stand, walk, talk, everything and we correct those in class using the drills. Let me send you back out and we calibrate it again. Do you ever feel that you guys might be in danger of creating social robots? Well, no, and that’s a good question. The reason that we’re not creating social robots is because we don’t script stuff so the guys are not going, well, if I say this, then she’ll do this.

50:44 And then I go to this level two and then she says this and I do this instead. What we do is we go, okay, Brian came in, he’s cool, but he’s got these three major sort of insecurities that he’s wearing on his sleeve that girls find out about after a while. Let’s fix those, not mask them, not cover them up. Let’s fix these insecurities by getting him some positive feedback and reinforcement by making you display these in front of everyone and find out, oh, no one’s really treating me like crap because I’m out of shape or something like that.

51:16 A lot of guys are like, I’m out of shape, I can never get a girl, I’m short, I’ll never get a girl. Well, we want to give you some exposure therapy so that now you don’t have that as an excuse anymore. So when you get enough hours doing that type of thing, we’ll spot those, we’ll find a way to fix it. Now we’re not creating a robot, we’re just bringing out your personality without the hindrances that you have in your head, these constructions that you have in your head about why you’re not good enough and don’t deserve what you want.

51:40 Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes total sense. How many guys have you treated? Treated. Hundreds.

51:45 Treated, yeah, not a doctor. We do have licensed therapists on staff, but hundreds, hundreds and hundreds. They’re like a week with you, do they come back later? They come back, yeah. A lot of guys come back.

51:55 We have a program called, well, we have the Platinum Program, which means guys can come back as many times as they want for a year. And so guys, a lot of guys do that. They’ll come in for a program, then like six months later, they’ll come in for another program and then they have a year from that six months to take as many programs as they want because they’ll take our connection, our report program, they’ll take three more attraction programs, they’ll just come in for the weekend maybe, just come in for a couple days, go out for a few nights or they’ll meet up with some alumni in other cities and hang out.

52:26 It’s pretty cool. Yeah, it’s awesome. Two more questions. One is, what do you want Articharm to be in like two years or in five years? And also, how do people get in touch with you?

52:35 Definitely, in a few years, what we want is for this stuff to be accessible to everybody because a lot of people, especially the guys that go, this is too expensive. We have hundreds of hours of free stuff on the podcast. Now, it’s not training, right, but it’s information. So the only thing we really charge for is our time. So what we want to do is scale it so that we have coaches in different cities, so that guys don’t have to travel as far.

52:56 We can run boot camps simultaneously every single week instead of just the two to three a month that we’re doing now in LA or New York. Because we’re sold out months in advance and a lot of guys can’t even get into the programs right away and we want to fix that. And we want to fix it without charging thousands and thousands more to meet demand and weed out everyone else. We want to make it more affordable, not less. So I want to be able to give this information to people because it helps in business as well.

53:21 We get married guys coming in. So we want to make sure that people get a chance to get at it. And I also want to see it being applied more in schools and in business because I think that in business, it’s the number one skill set that people are missing and employers tell us this all the time. What about trauma, charisma? Charisma and interpersonal skills.

53:41 It’s the one thing that most people that are high performing professionals, it’s the one thing that they’re usually missing. Engineers, IT people, lawyers, doctors, they even show their studies that show that doctors get sued less for malpractice even if they’re less capable if their patients like them. So doctors would be well suited, even insurance companies would be well suited to pay for this training because it’s actual insurance proven by science that will make you less of a target for a lawsuit even if you do make a mistake.

54:13 I have one question before you give us your contact details and we have to end off. What would, how old are you now, Jordan? 32. What would the 32 year old Jordan say to the 22 year old Jordan? You know, that’s a great question.

54:27 I always ask people this too. I would say don’t go to law school, dude. It’s going to cost you a lot of money and probably not going to use it. I don’t regret going to law school, but I definitely could do without it and I would have gotten started earlier. And what I would have said also is you don’t need a high paying job to be happy.

54:45 I mean, I have one now, but I don’t need it. Most, I saved most of my cash because I might want to retire really early and just like hang out with my kids, which I don’t have anything. You know what I’m saying? Like you don’t need a ton of money and I’d probably show him and cram down 22 year old Jordan’s throat the studies that show that above, I can’t remember the amount. I want to say like 64,000 or something.

55:07 That above that amount of money, the measurable level of happiness is like this liver of an increment. So people who make a million dollars a year are only slightly more happy than somebody who makes $65,000. And sometimes way less happy. And sometimes, often times, way less. And they certainly have less free time and way more responsibility that they don’t necessarily want.

55:28 So I would definitely cram that into the younger Jordan’s throat. Yeah, bash it in there. So we wanted to get into that. You seem like you really enjoy what you’re doing. I do, yeah.

55:38 You seem like you’re having a great time. That’s a hallmark of everyone we’ve met with who’s successful is they all love what they do, right? Yeah, yeah. If you don’t love what you’re doing, that’s another thing I’d probably tell them is if you don’t love what you’re doing, if you’re not excited about it, don’t do it. It’s not worth it.

55:52 Because law school was fun because I hung out with smart people all day. But being a lawyer, not as much fun. My coworkers were awesome. The job kind of sucked and was boring. And I was only doing it for the paycheck.

56:03 But really, I could have done something way cooler for half the amount of money or less and that study would have shown that I would have been just as well off, just as happy. Wow, that’s good advice. How do people get in touch with you? Theartofcharm.com is our website. You can email me personally, just Jordan, J-O-R-D-A-N, at theartofcharm.com.

56:21 And you can also call us and just leave a message. Do you have Twitter? I do have Twitter. It’s at theartofcharm. Okay, cool.

56:28 So it’s pretty easy. And Facebook, people hit us up on Facebook all the time. Totally down with that. That was a lot of fun. You’re a smart guy.

56:34 Thanks, man. I appreciate this. This is cool. I feel like I had to stay in frame a little bit or I had to get more animated. But I love this.

56:41 This is really fun. No, it was really good having you. You’ve got to come see us when you come to London. I would love to. Hang out with us.

56:47 Or when you guys move to California for the winter. We might come here. We should. We should. I think your course sounds really cool.

56:54 I think we might have to go check that out. Do it, man. I’ll hook you guys up. Awesome. Thanks for coming on, Joe.

57:01 We really appreciate that. Thanks for making L.A. even more fun. No, I appreciate it, man.