Jon Anik - Calling the UFC

Full transcript: Jon Anik on London Real

3:15 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. With me today is Mr. Peter Irving, who is an MMA fighter and also a writer for Fighters Only Magazine. And our guest today is Mr. John Anik, who needs no introduction, but in case you don’t know him, he is a play-by-play announcer for the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

3:30 He covers all of the FX and Fuel TV shows. And then funny enough, we saw him on UFC 155 covering the heavyweight title fight. I was floored. I think I said, honey, John’s on the TV next to Joe. So that was awesome.

3:47 Your sidekick is typically Kenny Florian. Also you’re a former anchor and the host of MMA Live, which is when I first started watching John. This is back in the day, I think, before you started the UFC. Also you host The Ultimate Insider, which I think is more of like a weekly news magazine about the UFC. Yes.

4:04 Welcome thank you guys you know it’s been a long time coming I know Brian we’ve talked about doing this for a long time so it’s good to finally be here in London and to be joining you guys you know I’m a big fan and it’s it’s good to be here finally it’s great having you you know you flew in last night I understand it’s your first time in London and I want to get your honest thoughts about the place the people you name it well you know I was in Nottingham a few months ago and everybody was you know crapping on Nottingham and I thought it was a quaint little city I thought it had a great historical feel it reminded me a little bit of Boston, Massachusetts, where I’m from. I haven’t seen much of London yet. I’m hoping to do so over the next couple days and certainly hoping to go out and experience some of the nightlife after the show on Saturday night.

4:43 But I really feel a special bond to the UK fight fans. I always have. And I think part of that’s because MMA Live at ESPN was on ESPN in the UK six or eight months before it ever hit ESPN 2 in the United States. So I’ve always sort of felt a special connection with the fans here. This is the sixth time the UFC has been in London, our 13th trip to the UK.

5:04 So it’s just an exciting place to call live fights. And for me, I don’t know that it gets any better than calling UFC fights here in England. So it’s good to be back, needless to say. Wow, well, it’s good to have you. And then the first thing you do is sit down with another yank.

5:17 Yeah. So, you know, at least Pete is the real deal. To balance that, yeah. He’s probably British. You know, you’ve just finished your one-year anniversary in the UFC.

5:24 And, you know, you went from really being a journalist more than anything at MMA Live. and now you’re doing the commentary and you’re working for this huge organization. And I just was wondering what surprised you and what hasn’t in the last year. Well, you know, I guess my biggest takeaway is just how well oiled a machine the UFC is. And it was something that I said to Dana White at our introductory press conference.

5:46 A lot of people don’t realize logistically what goes into putting on 32 of these shows a year, everything from building the octagon to the whole production and all the elements that go along with it, to merchandise. I mean, this is a traveling road show. It’s a circus. And I think as an outsider, you don’t quite realize how much goes into it, and how easy it is for something to go wrong, and how rarely things go wrong. And I hope I’m not jinxing anything when I say that.

6:11 But that’s been my biggest takeaway, just how tight an organization it is, how many talented people they have brought in from all different walks of life to make this the machine that it is. So that’s been my biggest takeaway. But you mentioned my journalistic background. And I think that’s been the biggest challenge for me is putting some of that aside. I feel like I’m a promoter.

6:32 I’m not Dana White, but I feel like working for the promotion that we do shed a light on the positive. And I think that’s been the biggest adjustment for me is just sort of putting on that promoters hat and looking at this sport now through the lens of a promoter as opposed to a journalist. So when we talk about hot button topics like testosterone replacement therapy, I’m less inclined to give my opinion maybe as strongly as I would have at ESPN. So that’s been a big adjustment for me and something that, you know, I continue to work on every day, but I wouldn’t change a thing, you know.

7:04 This was my dream job. I know it sounds trite to say dream job in this day and age, but, you know, I never thought this opportunity would materialize when I was at ESPN, or I certainly didn’t think it would happen this quickly. And then, of course, to be able to do a pay-per-view last year with Joe Rogan, I had to pinch myself, you know. It’s been an exciting ride and I tell a lot of people too, I mean I wouldn’t have taken this job if I didn’t have this great passion for mixed martial arts.

7:29 You know at ESPN I was pulled in a lot of different directions, did a lot of different things and my biggest frustration there was I didn’t get to do enough MMA and I didn’t get to do enough UFC stuff and certainly get in my fill of it now so it’s a good place to be and I hope to do this for many years to come. You’ve said this is difficult for you because it would be easy if you had to commentate on baseball or football because you grew up with this, but MMA is relatively new to you as in like six or seven years ago. Do you think that A keeps you interesting but also keeps it challenging for you?

7:59 Absolutely, and I think you need to be challenged really no matter what you’re doing as a fighter, as a journalist, you got to keep it fresh. And I guess for me, I mean it would be a lot simpler to sit down and call a basketball game because the rules and just the game is second nature to me. You know, I’ve been playing since I was three years old. So I think that’s what is a big part of the appeal for me in mixed martial arts is that every time we sit down to call fights, it really is a learning experience.

8:23 There are submissions and attempts that I see that I’m not familiar with. I covered my first MMA show I think in 2007 and I had been a fan on and off. I watched UFC 1 and 2 in the early 90s when I was in high school and we really got into it, but then I probably didn’t watch again until UFC 50. And it really, for me, it wasn’t until I attended my first live MMA show that I was truly hooked. I had watched the sport on TV, but it took attending a live show for me to really appreciate the sport.

8:55 It is the greatest sport in the world for myriad different reasons. And that is what really opened my eyes to it. And it was at that moment in 2007, I was covering the Elite XC debut. The main event was Henzo Gracie against Frank Shamrock. And it was really like an epiphany.

9:11 I sort of started to move in that direction and realized that this was something that I would like to do long-term and thankfully, you know, better to be lucky than good. I’ve gotten a few breaks along the way and here we are, you know. Do you train yourself? No, I mean, I took boxing lessons back when I was doing radio in Boston for a couple years. I do own a gi, but I haven’t taken my first Brazilian jiu-jitsu class yet.

9:32 Don’t tell Joe Rogan that, because I’m long overdue. But no, it definitely is something that I think would help not just my broadcasting, but just my overall knowledge of the sport, you know, to hit a mat and roll around a little bit. It’s not, you know, I mean, candidly, you know, when I have spare time, you know, I’d rather go play hoops, you know, than go wrestle or do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, but it’s something that I think I could get hooked on pretty quickly.

9:56 So it’s certainly on my short to-do list here in 2013 to get out there and roll a little bit. And there are so many great places obviously in Las Vegas to train and so many great jiu-jitsu practitioners there. So eventually I’ll find a place and hopefully it’ll help me on the air. Do you think it’s a necessity to train, or is the fact that Kenny’s right there for all the minutia of a jiu-jitsu hold that you don’t need to? Yeah, I don’t think it’s a prerequisite.

10:22 And I know Kenny and I have had conversations about it. He thinks it would help me, but he certainly doesn’t think it’s a prerequisite. And the UFC really wants Joe Rogan and Kenny Florian to handle the bulk of the action, especially when the fight hits the ground. And I think that’s what separates MMA from some of these other sports where there are traditional broadcast roles with the play-by-play guy and the color commentator. That line is much more blurred in mixed martial arts.

10:46 We are constantly trying to simplify the complicated. And as you see with this new Fox deal, so much of our approach is trying to cater to these casual fans and bringing new fans to this sport. And that’s the big challenge for our analysts to simplify what is inherently very complicated. So when the fight hits the canvas, you’ll notice that Kenny and Joe take on, you know, 75 to 80% of the play-by-play and the action when the fight does hit the canvas. So yeah, I mean, they’re charged with explaining a lot of that stuff, but I certainly think it would help me do my job, you know, and it’s just about, you know, having the time to train and do it.

11:22 But it’s something I’m excited about. I mean, believe me, I bought a key and I was all jacked up to do it. And then life intervenes a little bit. You know, I have a young daughter, another one on the way, but I wouldn’t say it’s a prerequisite, but certainly something that I think would help me the job. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of the striking game, but in terms of the jujitsu and even the wrestling game, there’s always things to learn.

11:42 Yeah, it’s funny because sometimes Joe is talking about the minutia and he’s like, you see that his left hook is moving in and he’s going to move around and try to get a darts choke and like I’m a purple belt and sometimes I am straining my eyes trying to figure out exactly what Joe is talking about. So I wonder if you, like you said, you’re trying to appeal to the casual fan, does too much minutia hurt at some point? No, it’s a good question and I think our color commentators are so talented at, I mean people don’t realize just how hard it is when you’re on live television to, you know, your thoughts just go out to the masses and you need to make sure you’re not complicating things, you know, because there’s a lot of things that happens in mixed martial arts and it happens so quickly that you need to make sure that you’re keeping up with the action and not trailing the action and that’s what I think Kenny and Joe do so well, is really simplifying that stuff, but I do think you run the risk of providing too much information.

12:36 And oftentimes I think sometimes the safer approach would be to talk in general terms about submissions and choke holds without blurting out the names of specific chokes. Because when you use a term like homoplata or americana, oftentimes it’s lost on the casual fans. The hardcore fans know exactly what you’re talking about, but it’s a constant balancing act for those guys and you know again I just continue to be so impressed with their ability in the moment to talk through some of those transitions on the ground as you know from your time training and of course Pete you it’s not easy especially on the fly especially knowing that you know you’re fueling the public perception all the time you know it’s it’s really I think a great challenge I think it’s a lot easier for guys who do color commentary in football and basketball than it is for Joe and Kenny working in MMA.

13:26 Yeah, do you think there should be more? How do you feel the commentary is in UFC or other shows? I mean, do you think there should be more minutia? I mean, it’s hard enough to get anyone to know the ground game, and then you start talking in like an homo plata, and you must really be talking to three or four or 5% of the audience. Yeah, well, I mean, I’m quite familiar, so I don’t really feel like I need that guidance a lot of the time.

13:45 Probably actually helps to have one commentator who is essentially a layman, and then who can bring it back for the audience who’s unfamiliar If somebody, if they call a commentator that gets too technical, you can say, wait a minute, what is that? So that dynamic probably helps maybe if you were very familiar. You might not notice that you’re talking about things that are going over the heads of some of the audiences. Yeah, no, I think that’s a good point.

14:10 And I am told a lot to question Kenny, you know, to throw out questions, especially when there’s something that maybe he’s explained or something that’s happening that I’m not totally familiar with. But you’re right, really sort of going down to that lowest common denominator to try to simplify the complicated. And I keep saying that and you’re going to hear me keep saying that because I really think this sport more than others, there’s just so much technically that goes into it.

14:33 And I think for the casual fans, it can be a turnoff. Sometimes when you’re watching the action on the ground and it’s happening so quickly and you don’t really know what’s happening. Yeah. Everyone says that you have their dream job and it’s like, oh, everyone’s like, I want to be up there, you know, doing the commentary. But like, I know for a fact, we had Gareth Davies in here last week and he said he spent a three-hour conference call with you where you had 20 minutes with every single fighter of the card. And I don’t think anyone understands the preparation you guys have to do in order to shine at one of these main events. So I was wondering if you could just talk us through like, you know, what is like your last week coming up to a fight? You know, yeah, what are you doing and how many hours a day are you spending on the UFC?

15:14 You know, as I was saying to you guys before we came on the air, there’s never enough time you know if this show was delayed until Sunday night this weekend I could certainly make use of all day Saturday and all night on Saturday a lot of it is watching film you know going back and watching the previous fight of all the 20 or 24 fighters that are on the card we get bios from the UFC that are full of information I hand write those bios onto what I call fighter cards so I translate all that information from paper to my index cards which helps me re-familiarize myself with some of these fighters and helps with the process of memorizing some of the things and facts that I need to know but you know people always ask me are you nervous on fight night and the only anxiety for me really is in the preparation because there’s so much that goes into getting ready for fight night not unlike a fighter you know that one Saturday night arrives that’s when we get to enjoy it you know and and some of the process in getting to Saturday night is arduous and is a little bit mundane and menial at times not that I don’t enjoy it but but that body of work, I think, is far less enjoyable for me than actually calling the live fights.

16:19 But it’s a constant learning curve. What’s so great about Joe Rogan, his retention is just ridiculous. It’s not just an encyclopedic knowledge, but it’s his ability to tap into that knowledge and to tap into the history of the UFC. Sometimes I forget fights I called two months ago, so there’s a lot of learning that leading up to a fight that I almost relearn having to go back. So it’s an exhaustive process but you know I enjoy it and you know immersing myself in this roster too I mean when I first took this job I think the roster was maybe 320 fighters now we’re over 450 you know.

16:58 So as the roster continues to grow that’s a big challenge especially on these Fuel TV and FX shows often times we have fighters who are making their UFC debuts. There isn’t a lot of footage on those guys so you just have to try to get a hold of as much information as humanly possible and of course doing those calls with the fighters helps to really hear where their minds are more than anything else a couple weeks out you know and I think that is tremendous insight to hear from these guys for 20 or 30 minutes to really tap into their brains and as you can speak to as a fighter just where they are a couple weeks out from the biggest fight of their lives you know. Wow and they’re pretty honest with you typically.

17:35 Yeah and you know I think too as the play-by-play guy I think a lot of them want to get things out on the air. So it’s really a great opportunity for them, whether they want to talk about things from their family or things that have sort of helped them or hurt them leading up to this fight, things that they want to get out on the air, it’s an opportunity for them to share some of those things. You know, I know we talked to Cub Swanson this week and he wants us to shout out the juvenile hall in Indio, California.

18:00 He was a guy who spent some time in juvie and he goes to this juvenile hall and spends a lot of time with these kids and he wants us to shout them out on the broadcast. So I thought that was a cool nugget and but you know, these are just great athletes to deal with, you know Candidly in my broadcasting career I’ve dealt with a lot of athletes that aren’t fun to deal with in a lot of different sports that don’t want to give you the Time of day and I think what’s nice about mixed martial arts being in its relative infancy Is that these guys do want to talk and they understand that there’s an obligation to get out there And to make the media your friend as opposed to your enemy and it’s refreshing, you know It’s certainly easier to get a quote in this sport than it is in other sports And it’s something that that certainly helps us do our job, you know do fighters get angry with you I mean, do they ever come up and feel like you called something wrong or you know, do they ever have issues with you?

18:46 Yeah, I mean I’ve only been called out publicly once on Twitter Jeff Curran was was upset with our call in his Last UFC fight against Johnny Eduardo He was absorbing a lot of leg kicks and as far as he was concerned They weren’t doing much damage and he wasn’t really making any great effort to check them and he thought we just overstated the significance of those light kicks on the broadcast and he called us out on Twitter. But, you know, when you’re doing play-by-play and you’re doing live events, no matter what the sport is, it’s just, you’re in a thankless seat. You know, most of the time when you’re hearing from people, especially the athletes, it’s gonna be criticism as opposed to, oh, you really called my fight really well there, you know?

19:21 And that’s something that just comes with the territory and it’s something Goldie and I have talked about and it is what it is. You know, when I did college football for ESPN, You would think that I attended one of the schools when I would hear from the masses on the other side with all the hatred. Did you go to Ohio University as you’re not giving Rutgers a fair shake or whatever it is? So a lot of that just comes with the territory. And I think with this new era of social media, not only is there the immediacy, but there’s the access.

19:52 And I know Dan Hardy wrote on Twitter recently, I thought it was great. He said, I can’t wait for the day when I can delete my Facebook and Twitter accounts. And I have no doubt in my mind, when he retires, that he will do that. Or will he? Well, we’ll sit.

20:04 We’ll sit. It can be quite addictive as well, can’t it? No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I spend far less time on Twitter now that I have a daughter at home than I used to.

20:12 It was an obsession for me for a while when I first got on Twitter, I think, in 2010. I was on there all the time, and now I spend far less time on there. Do you respond to tweets? Do you engage? Yeah.

20:24 I mean, I try to as much as possible. Sometimes it’s easier said than done. If somebody asked me a specific question, either about my career or about where to find UFC information, I feel a certain obligation to get back to them. Because they’re asking me, and they might only be asking me, hey, where do these fights air in the UK, or what time do they air here in England? And I feel like it’s my obligation to get back to them.

20:48 But it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of energy, and I will say, in getting back your original question, when it comes to fighters, I feel a great obligation to get back to them. Because I feel like as broadcasters more often than not, and there’s a great quote, I wish I had it, but we really are misunderstood a lot. And even in terms of our dispositions and our personalities, I think sometimes people maybe look at my on air work and think that I’m this straight edge guy who never cusses or never parties or does any of that stuff, and that’s not necessarily the truth.

21:20 That is how you come off sometimes. Sure, and that’s okay, and I understand it. I can’t go on and tweet about smoking marijuana, that’s not going to serve me well in my career going forward. There’s a lot of things I think that go into the job that make it difficult and it’s fun to do podcasts like this because I think some of the real personality comes out. I do miss radio because it’s rooted in opinion and I think it’s more rooted in personality.

21:48 There’s so much that goes into a UFC show, there’s so much traffic. Half the time when I’m not talking, I’ve got somebody in my ear. Half the time when I am talking, I’ve got somebody in my ear and there’s just so much that goes into the broadcast that I think a lot of the fans don’t quite realize. And sometimes I think it makes it hard for your personality to come through or makes it hard for you to be organic and natural or relaxed at all times. It’s a constant work in progress too, not unlike a fighter.

22:15 We’re constantly trying to get better. We’re constantly scrutinizing ourselves. I beat myself up pretty good at the end of shows and thankfully my family keeps me grounded but it’s just a constant evolution for us to try to get better and to try to let our personalities shine through while also shining the brightest possible light on the UFC and on the promotion. You said it’s all about reps. I remember one of your quotes which is actually something Schwarzenegger says when he was practicing to be a governor on the speeches he was just like reps, reps, reps.

22:47 It’s like, I know that if I do this over and over again, I will get better, and it’s something you’ve talked about as well, and I just wonder if you could talk about what you mean by that. Yeah, I mean, the two things I always talk about when people ask me for advice are repetitions and being ready when opportunities present themselves. Because I’ll get to the repetitions in a second, but if you’re not ready when an opportunity presents itself, whether you’re a fighter and you get called on two weeks notice to take a fight, or you’re a broadcaster and you get an opportunity for an audition, If you’re not ready for that opportunity, it may never come around again.

23:20 What’s difficult is that sometimes you need those repetitions to prepare you for that opportunity. I remember when I first started on the radio and I wish I had the demo tape for you guys. Just brutal. I don’t know why anybody would hire me. And I remember when I auditioned for TV at ESPN, I had a little bit of a tick.

23:37 With my rhythm and my cadence and my background in radio, oftentimes I would move a lot when I would be on the air because I wasn’t on camera. So when I first did my TV audition at ESPN, I had a real hard time controlling my body and controlling my head. And Candley, one of the producers asked me if I had Tourette’s Syndrome because I had a constant tick, you know, and just a cadence. And now I feel like I’ve nipped a lot of that in the bud. I mean, I’m still working on it, but it’s all about repetitions.

24:05 I think anything in life, whether you’re changing diapers or broadcasting on live television, so much of it is about repetitions. And you know, it’s funny because when I did Bellator’s first season in 2009, the English language broadcast, we were only on the internet. I was more nervous to call that first fight than I was to do the UFC 155 pay-per-view with Joe Rogan. And people think that’s crazy, but when you really think about it, when I sat down Caged Side in 2009, I had never called a mixed martial arts fight in my life.

24:33 I had done some boxing for ESPN and obviously other sports, but I had never called an MMA fight. it was foreign to me. Even though I knew the sport, I didn’t know how I would do in that play-by-play realm. When I sat down to call the UFC Heavyweight Championship of the world, I had called 200 flights or so. Even though the magnitude of the moment was very exciting and I had chills head to toe when that show opened hit, but there really weren’t any nerves because I had been there and done that. I’m sure you guys now 16, 18 months into doing this podcast, it feels like a totally different animal than when you guys sat down for show number one.

25:07 Do to what you do but like well I compared it so okay I mean like Pete Pete this is like your fourth show I think right yeah I’m right in that moment there where I’m where I’m on the learning curve yeah well and you just I mean like not unlike getting in the cage you really you just got to let it rip you know and you just got to be yourself and you know sometimes it’s hard to do that because we have so many things in our head and formulaically there’s so many things that go into a broadcast you know but but the advice I always give people is just let it rip and be confident and be yourself because if they don’t want to hire you to be yourself you know like that’s when the UFC hired me they said we don’t want you to be rogue and we don’t want you to be goldy we want you to be yourself that’s why we hired you and you just hope that your personality comes through while also dealing with all the different elements of a broadcast but yeah I mean you just you’ll be amazed when you’re on show 40 how different it feels than than Shona I cringe when I look at my early episodes I’m sure tongue-twisted in the beginning I’m like it’s just all all the stuff that you’re talking about, and it’s a little bit better now, but it was all reps, and like you said, having the biggest superstar in now wouldn’t phase me as much as that fifth show where I was like, oh Jesus, what’s going on?

26:18 Yeah, well, you know, and I feel like I must have gotten 200 questions about my nerves and my anxiety level leading up to UFC 155, and to me, again, the only anxiety was in the shortened condensed time to prepare, because I think it was Christmas Eve or Christmas Day when I got the call that Goldie was gonna be unavailable. So I wasn’t able to go back and watch every single previous fight of all the guys on the card. So I had less time to prepare, but once the broadcast started, you know, the only thing that I was sort of focused on was making sure that Joe and I could develop some sort of instant chemistry.

26:51 And I think too, as I go off on a little tangent here, when it comes to chemistry, I really feel like if you don’t have some instant chemistry with a broadcast partner, you’re never gonna have that chemistry, you know? And as humbly as I can say this, I feel like Joe and I did have a decent chemistry there right out of the shoot. And I think we have a nice contrast about our styles that work. And I think you can tell pretty early on, even when we’re doing a prelim on Facebook, I thought I can tell pretty early on if this was gonna work or it wasn’t gonna work.

27:20 And he was very gracious to accept me that night and hopefully it’s an opportunity that comes around again. Is it like an actor when they talk about other actors being generous, like when you’re playing off each other? Because I thought Rogan was really cool and seemed to just kind of welcome you in a weird metaphorical way, you know, gave you props, let you do the talking, and then he did his stuff. Yeah, no, I was surprised at how little we stepped on each other, to be quite honest, as I went back and watched it.

27:47 But Joe’s a master. I mean, he is such a dynamic talent and just such a gifted personality. No matter what he does, you know, I don’t know that he even enjoyed doing Fear Factor, but every time there was a chance for him to add comedic value to the show or have a quick one-liner he was always there to make that show better and it’s not a show that I would inherently watch because I don’t get off on people eating spiders but he made that show enjoyable and so he’s an easy guy to work with I would say right out of the chute you know just has such a dynamic quality and great comedic value obviously but you know I think go ahead.

28:25 Is it very different when you paired up with Joe Rogan to when you paired up with Kenny Well, I think the difference is Kenny and I have worked together hundreds of times and Joe and I had only had, you know, ten Conversations off the air and had never worked together on the air. So you always wonder How that’s gonna go But I feel like in any good broadcast team the analyst really is supposed to shine I mean if you go back to John Madden and Pat Summerall John Madden shines and I think any good play-by-play guy will tell you that In a broadcast team the analyst is the guy who is supposed to shine the analyst makes more money than the play-by-play guy in most situations and they’re the guy who’s supposed to shine and part of my job is to provide a blank canvas for Joe Rogan to get out of his way when the action advances and and that’s a big part of the challenge and something that I take very seriously to make sure that I get out of the way I mean because when the action is really advancing who would you rather hear John Anaker Joe Rogan you know John Anaker Kenny Florian people want to hear Kenny they want to hear Joe and I think you really as a play-by-play guy need to eliminate the ego.

29:27 Because it really isn’t about me, it’s about the fighters. People are always curious how you deal with the haters and the criticism. For me, if people aren’t talking about the broadcasters, I feel like that’s a win. I’m constantly amazed with how much people talk about the commentators and the commentary, when to me, it’s always been about the athletes. When I’m watching a football or a basketball game, I know who the broadcasters are, generally speaking, but they’re not a focus for me.

29:53 I’m focused on the athletes and the fighters. You know, if we can keep the focus on the fighters and, you know, the action, I think we’re doing our jobs. You know, that being said, my last UFC fight, I was at the O2 Arena here a few years ago, and the one thing that stuck out in my mind was I missed the commentary. It was like, where’s Joe in my ear? You know, where’s the… and I found it, honestly, I kind of missed it, you know, and I wish I could be able to stick an earpiece in the stadium or something like that.

30:16 Do you ever hear that? Yeah, well, and I would say, for mixed martial arts in particular, I much prefer to watch it with commentary, because as I said, I’m still learning the sport, you know, whereas as if I’m at a basketball game live, I don’t really feel like I’m missing as much. But of course the UFC has gone at great lengths in a lot of these venues where you can actually listen to the commentators in your seat. I don’t know if we’ll have that capability for the show here in London, but no, absolutely.

30:41 I feel like with MMA, as I said, still in its relative infancy, I feel like I need the commentary. Yeah, I miss it. The commentators have a great deal of power over how the fight’s perceived. And as a coach, whenever I’m getting my athletes to analyze the upcoming opponents. Rule number one is switch the volume off so that you can’t hear the crowd and you can’t hear the commentators and it can really, really strongly affect how you perceive the fight.

31:08 No, it’s a great point. Perception becomes reality and I think it’s great advice that you give as a coach and advice any fighter should take. Even when you go back and watch your fight, you might as well watch it on mute and then if you wanna go back and see how the commentary sort of perceived what you were doing or what you weren’t doing, that’s fine. But you know, it’s tough. I mean, we really try to, I look at them as fighter A and fighter B.

31:31 I mean, you really try to eliminate the names and faces as much as possible. You know, Brian Stan’s a good friend of mine and I’m gonna call his fight in two weeks against Vanderlei Silva. And you can be sure that if there are moments in which he deserves to be criticized that we’ll be right there criticizing him. And you know, it is tough. And it is something that I’m sensitive to because you hate for a fighter to be criticized by a broadcaster maybe when they don’t deserve it and that becomes the opinion of the majority.

32:01 And that is a slippery slope for us and something that we take very seriously. But you’re right, I think it is a smart move to watch those fights on mute and to just watch the action play out before you hear the way it’s called. And even if you go back to UFC 156, I thought Jose Alta won the fight 49-46. Now, I think if you watch that fight on the pay-per-view, well, maybe, you know, a lot of people thought Frankie Edgar won the fight, but I think the commentary was such that it, they seem to think maybe Frankie won the fight.

32:32 I mean, I was sitting with Chael Sonnen and Daniel Cormier, both of whom thought Frankie Edgar won the fight. If I had been calling that fight, I think maybe you would have heard a different call and maybe that sort of fuels public opinion a little bit, you know, so it’s definitely something we’re aware of but we’re really just calling a fight between you know fighter A and fighter B and you try to eliminate that personal stuff 100% you know. I think I first noticed it when I saw Rogan cover a BJ Penn fight and I know they have their friends and they have a history but you know Rogan would tear into BJ like and he’d be like BJ looks really out of shape or round four he’s like well BJ better do something because he’s losing this fight and I’d just be like wow I mean that’s that’s raw and yeah I mean it was good just It’s nice to see, you know, that he has to go.

33:18 So I guess you have to be opinionated at the end of the day. That’s what you’re paid for. Yeah, and you know, less so me than Kenny, but you know, there are times when maybe the pace of a fight will slow and you don’t see an injury on either side and all of a sudden after 10 good minutes in the third round, they look like two unconditioned athletes and you’re sitting there on the mic and you’re trying to, in a thoughtful way, say, you know, Kenny, why has this pace slowed?

33:42 Are these guys not prepared for a 15 minute fight? why is the action so lulled here at this point in time and you know I’m not a fighter you know so I don’t know what it’s like to have to dig deep in that third round I can only imagine you know as I try to run five miles on the treadmill working out the worst part of my day you know but yeah I mean there are times where we do have to opine and we do have to maybe suggestively criticize fighters without knowing maybe if there’s an injury or if there’s factor as to why their pace has slowed but you know it’s something you develop thick skin I think in this industry pretty quickly you know I started on the radio in Boston and that’s as good a sport town as there is in the United States of America and you know I just hearing from Red Sox fans you know they would criticize the hell out of me you know so it’s something that I’m used to and something that I think you become conditioned to. I was wondering if you walk us through your next 36 hours I mean this is this is go time for you right now so what’s happening today and tomorrow for you yeah so I’ll leave here and then I’ll head over to the arena I’ve got a Q&A with Michael Bisping today at about two o’clock then we have the weigh-in at four which I will MC and then it’s right back to the room you know I wish I could say I was gonna go grab a nice dinner in London but it’s back to my room for final preparations

34:57 You know I do my final scripts my final cards the night before the fight just to keep it fresh so I haven’t written my show open yet so I’ll write my show open and I don’t have to be at the arena until 4 o’clock on Saturday, so I’ll wake up, I’ll run my 5 miles, get that pain out of the way and then I’ll keep you fresh for a broadcast. Yeah, you know, that’s how I sort of, that’s how I cut weight for television now, but that’s a, you know, I feel like it helps my energy level to run during the day, you know, and then just final preparations, you know, I mean, I read a ton, you know, I try to get my hands on as much literature leading up to the fight, you know, it’s a fine line though because you don’t want to get too many opinions in your head you know especially when it comes to people predicting the fights but there’s just so much content as you guys know now to consume on the internet when it comes to mixed martial arts so I just try to sort of maximize the day and maximize the hours as much as possible and then as I said when I’m walking to the arena I feel like most of the work’s done it’s time to just enjoy the fights like everybody else you know because really what what brought all of us into the the sport was being a fan.

36:00 And at my core, I really am a fan. And when I sit down to call some of these bigger fights, there’s just an excitement level that’s through the roof. And sometimes I have to sort of bottle that and make sure I stay focused on exactly what we’re doing. Because when I’m sitting down to watch Cain Velazquez Jr. dos Santos, sometimes I have to remind myself like, bro, you’re calling the fight.

36:21 So you can’t stop talking here. Stop watching the fight and actually call the action what’s going on. So it’s an exciting time fight week, it never gets old. We’re doing so many of these, but I get excited for the first Facebook prelim too. I mean, that’s the thing because you just never know when the next UFC star is gonna emerge.

36:39 And it can happen really at any point in time. I remember a couple of years ago when Edson Barboza first burst onto the scene. And he was a relative unknown at the time. And Gunnar Nelson, a guy who we’re gonna see here tomorrow night, a guy who a lot of people think might be the next big thing. And certainly his UFC debut did nothing to dispel that theory.

36:58 But he’s a guy who, if he can get through Jorge Santiago in this spot, all of a sudden he’s going to be creeping into welterweight contention, I think, pretty quickly here for a guy who would only be two fights into his UFC career. So you never know on a card with 24 fighters when the next star will emerge. So I’m excited, man. And then you got seven hours of, or six hours of calling fights? Yeah, that, if I could change anything, it would be that there would be no more than 10 or 11 fights on a car because as a broadcaster it really is like doing back-to-back basketball or football games when you’re on headset for six and a half or seven hours and you know we have hits that we tape before the broadcast and hits on the back end that we tape after the broadcast so it really is a marathon there really is a lot of mental agility and focus that goes into it you know you’re doing a college basketball game you’re two and a half hours on headset you know it’s totally different animal and that was probably the One of the biggest adjustments for me on the job was pacing myself for the main event so that you still have the energy and you leave room to go up.

37:59 My inclination when Ulysses Gomez fights Phil Harris is to go sick when we get a finish and I have to make sure that I don’t treat that like a title fight. Because you have to bring the cow’s energy up throughout the night. I just can’t overstate what Ulysses Gomez or Phil Harris victory means on the first fight of a card. And the crowd does play into it too. I mean, what’s nice is about being here in England is that the place will be packed for the first prelim. We don’t experience that a lot in the United States. You know, it’s a little bit more like boxing where it’s a later arriving crowd and it really doesn’t pack up until the main card starts. But yeah, I mean, I can’t go nuts. Even if it’s a calf slicer, you know, I can’t go totally sick on the first fight of the night for obvious reasons. You know, I have to save room as the fights get bigger, as the nights go on.

38:46 Do you caffeinate? We know Mike Goldberg has a history of sucking down red bulls and sometimes sprinting to the bathroom. This is Rogan that said that. But do you caffeinate or are there pitfalls from doing that? Yeah, you know, I do caffeinate, but there’s a chance that during six hours I might only get one chance to go to the bathroom, you know.

39:02 So at the end of these shows, I’m pretty dehydrated because I don’t drink a lot of fluids because I don’t want to have to go to the bathroom and interrupt the broadcast. And, you know, even what a lot of people don’t realize is even when we’re on commercial brakes on FX and Fuel TV when the fighters are walking to the octagon. For a lot of the international redistribution, we’re not in commercial brakes. So I might throw to a commercial brake on Fuel TV, then Gunnar Nelson walks to the octagon and we’re still wallpaper in that and providing background information.

39:30 So it seems like we have all these commercial brakes domestically in the United States when in actuality we don’t have a lot of those commercial brakes internationally. So it’s a lot of talking, man, and just try to lube up the throat as best you can and drink coke or diet coke and but you know I will say with the magnitude of these sporting events it’s not hard to keep my energy up if anything I need to tone it down at times you know and I and I don’t know that the broadcast always reflects that I think you know sometimes people criticize me saying that I don’t like the sport or have the passion for the sport and that’s really the hardest criticism for me to take because I wouldn’t leave ESPN which is the pinnacle for sports broadcasters and the place I always wanted to get, I wouldn’t have left there to do this full time if I didn’t have a passion for this book.

40:15 Did you have to think to make that decision or was it pretty much like we need to do this? You know I’ve always said in my career that I hope these decisions when it comes to switching jobs or staying at one place will make them for themselves because that’s one of the drawbacks of this industry is that nobody’s given me a ten year contract. Nobody really wants to give me a five year contract you know so every time you sign a deal it’s two or three years.

40:38 And for me, I really took this job hoping to do it until I retire. I mean, that was a big part of the appeal for me. And yeah, I mean, it was a decision that made itself. You know, once I knew play by play was going to be a part of the job, I never looked back. You know, that was when I was first approached by the UFC and I had about six or eight months left on my contract at ESPN.

40:59 I just wanted to make sure that calling fights would be a part of it, because for the last 10 years, it’s only been Mike and Joe. And if that wasn’t going to be a part of it, I wasn’t going to be interested, and would stay at ESPN and try to do more college football and college basketball and some boxing because there’s just nothing like doing live events you know as fun as it is to do studio work there’s nothing like calling a live sporting event and that was a huge part of the draw for me and once I knew that that was going to be the core of the job they could have paid me pennies man I was signed and sealed you know. Why is it was men were such adrenaline junkies You know, you like a live event, you like to fight, I mean, you know, you just like to get up for that challenge, right?

41:39 And then all the endorphins that come after you’ve succeeded from the challenge, right? Well, I think too, you know, a lot of the stuff you do in studio, millions of people are watching, but you’re in the studio with, you know, six or eight guys. And sometimes you’re not doing it live, you’re doing it live to tape. So if you do screw up, you know, there’s a chance to go back and do it. There’s nothing like the rush of live television.

41:59 And when I tell you that, when that show-open hit for UFC 155, it was a bodily feeling like nothing I had ever experienced. I mean, I had goosebumps head to toe, I shit you not, and it was a challenge for me. I was like, dude, you just got to get a hold of yourself here because I was not nervous but so excited to crack that mic and call a UFC pay-per-view, you know, Joe Rogan next to me a year into the job, it was just something I never thought would materialize that quickly.

42:27 And I’m sure fighters experience it too. You really need to stay within yourself to not get too excited in the moment. But yeah, we are adrenaline junkies, man. I mean, the live event to me is where it’s at when it comes to doing sports TV. Were you ready when that phone call made for Rogan?

42:41 Were you just like, had you prepared yourself for getting that call? Were you just… You know, it’s interesting because when I took the job, it’s hard not to sort of fantasize about doing a UFC pay-per-view. Like Goldie and Rogan getting crashed in an airplane or something. No, it’s certainly not that, but it’s hard not to fantasize at times about working with Joe or calling paper, and I would be lying if I said that wasn’t something that I dreamt about or thought about, but I never thought it would happen this quickly.

43:13 When I saw my phone ringing from my boss on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, I knew something was up. I didn’t know if it meant they needed me to, you know, fill in on a post-fight show in LA or what was going on, but I knew something was up and, you know, I mean they said you’re getting a call up to the big leagues and, you know, as I said earlier, you know, you just got to be ready and that was the thing too. I felt ready, you know, and there have been other times maybe in my career where I wasn’t necessarily ready for opportunities and maybe I didn’t do as well or I didn’t get that opportunity or I didn’t audition well or what have you but I just felt ready to just attack it and it was a lot of fun you know it’s an experience that I’ll always you know look back upon fondly and it’s certainly a night that I’ll never forget you know but I’m glad Goldie’s back man you know he’s been so respectful of me and texted me the night before the fight which just meant the world to me it’s cool you know and it would have been very easy I think for somebody in his spot to be insecure and to not embrace the new guy coming in And again, I’m not here to take his job.

44:19 I’m here so he doesn’t have to do 35 shows a year. And that’s really the gist of it. Goldie and Rogan aren’t going anywhere. They’re gonna call these fights for years to come. You know, I don’t love being called the B Team, but we are the second broadcast.

44:31 That was my next question, so I can’t call you guys the B Team. Well, hey, you can call us whatever you want, but you know, we are just, Junior Varsity, I think, would be kind of a dig. But no, we are, we love doing it, you know, and Kenny and I sort of grew up in the same Metro West area of Boston. You know, we worked together for a long time at ESPN and you know when I was going through the audition process and they were auditioning me with different fighters, Rich Franklin and Frank Meir and Stefan Bonner and Kenny, you know it was sort of nice that Kenny emerged as the guy they chose because he was certainly you know my best friend of the bunch and I’m close with Frank Meir and Stefan Bonner as well but Kenny and I sort of had a special connection and it was just something that we had talked about even a year into doing MMA live like wouldn’t it be cool if one day we could call UFC fights and fast forward a couple years and here we are so Because you’re on MMA live first and then he came along He’s one of the first fighters that was on yeah exactly He was the first fighter who was on the show and a guy who studied communications in college He’s just tremendous, you know and you know I think it was something that we sort of fantasized about but never really thought it would come to fruition and it really is Hard to believe that a few years later neither one of us is at ESPN and here we are working for the UFC

45:42 So he’s made a nice transition hats off to Kenny. I know it it must be tough as a fighter to stop fighting But he seems to just jump right in and talk about reps. He see I’m trying I’m trying to convince him to do testosterone replacement therapy and get back in the octagon, but we should talk about that He’s yeah, he’s so he’s worried about the long-term effects and all that stuff. So he’s gonna be clean forever But yeah, I mean it’s tough man It’s and I’m sure Pete you you know you think about the day when maybe the career would come to an end or maybe you don’t think about that day but it’s hard for him because yeah I mean it’s hard for him because he didn’t really get to do it on his own terms even though you know his last fight was for the UFC title his back retired him you know and that I think is very hard for him to sort of swallow you know but at this point I think he’s done but you know you can be sure that I’m still putting the pressure on to see if he can fight one more time. We were talking about Kenny for you know yeah and he was one of those guys I just I always wanted to see him just even just one time just get that belt and he seemed to attack from every avenue and he was so close so many times and the way that he the way that he fought or something that I appreciate I love his combination of jujitsu and Muay Thai he had that exciting fighting style and then somehow just sort of got pipped by those guys that you know they just didn’t

46:59 Have the same kind of excitement but managed to just squash his style enough to prevent him from getting there I always wanted to see him be the Yeah, and I’m sure he’d appreciate you saying that and I don’t know that he will ever get the credit He deserves for what he did in the octagon, you know in this day and age We talked so much about judges and Kenny didn’t need the judges a whole lot I mean you look at his resume, you know when he had that quote after a fight, you know, I finished fights I mean it became this great sound bite, but he finished fights I mean you look at the number of submissions and anyone who studies Brazilian jiu-jitsu knows that the core submission is taking the back and locking in a rear naked choke. And he did it better than anybody for years and years.

47:39 He took these big fights. I mean, Jesus, you look at his last five fights and they’re just big, big, big. Jose, although, yes, he steps us. Jesus, and he cut so much weight for that. I feel the same way.

47:48 It was just like, come on Kenny, let’s just get one. But I guess that’s unpredictable about a career. Like it was weird, we had Dorian Yates sitting down here, a former bodybuilder, missed Olympia for six years. And he said, a lot of guys try to replace that feeling after they stopped competing. And he said he had to come to a realization that it can’t be replaced.

48:06 So stop trying to and just try to do something else. Yeah, live TV doesn’t come close to being in a cage when that door closes. I certainly can’t speak to that side of things. But as great a rush as he might get from doing TV, there’s just nothing like getting back in there. And I think that’s why a lot of us that are close to him would love to see him just take one more fight at 155 pounds.

48:27 I do feel like had he not gone down to 145, Maybe he could have prolonged his career a little bit, you know, and I know that I was one of the people fairly close to him that disagreed with that decision. And of course, we ended up being wrong because he worked himself back into a featherweight title fight. But you know, I just I thought if he had stayed at 155, I mean, I still think he’s a top five lightweight when health, you know, on the other hand, you know, there’s just there’s nothing there’s nothing sadder than seeing that great fight at your school that one or two fights too many, you know, and ruin their legacy.

48:58 I mean, we’ve talked about like Sakuraba and people like that before and it’s just it’s just a sad thing to see So maybe maybe it’s greater now We’re gonna remember candy foreign is being a being a great contender and then still being present in the sport. Is it? Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah No, I think it’s a good point and I do think that too often we see fighters stick around for one or two more fights And you’re right, even though that doesn’t become their legacy It becomes the lasting image which oftentimes cannot taint or tarnish the legacy But it sort of seeps in there and and can become the legacy a little bit And you know when people think of Chuck Liddell They certainly think of one of the greatest light heavyweight champions of all time But it is hard to get some of those knockout losses out of your head when you think about his career Yeah, you know we saw this some this crazy head kick that Peter Belfort put on Michael B. Spring recently And you know then we saw the whole you know fact that he’s another fighter kind of in his mid to late 30s That’s on TRT and I mentioned earlier that I saw him in this media scrum And I was like Jesus Christ. He’s got this like new focus and aggression level and I was just like I said this to Pete before It feels like we’re almost building these cyborgs out of our fighters as they get to where their careers gonna be over and we build Them back together and they go in with this knowledge base

50:11 I mean he’s been fighting for 15 16 years and now he’s almost like a machine And I just wanted to get your thoughts as much as you can say about that issue So hyper gonadism, which is the condition when you have low testosterone and and I am no doctor But part of me would like to see that if you’re not diagnosed with hypergonalism prior to your 18th birthday You know so before life takes over and you get older and your testosterone goes down naturally if you’re not diagnosed with low testosterone prior to your 18th birthday You should never get a therapeutic use exemption in professional sports to use Testosterone because it’s just the natural human condition and even though my testosterone might go down more so than another guys That’s just the luck of the draw You know, so I would like to see those fighters who actually need this to prove medically that that this has been a condition They’ve been dealing with for quite some time, you know, some fighters have suggested that you know, if I don’t have this treatment, you know It’s fatal. Well, you know, let’s see some medical proof of that You know, I just I do have an issue with the therapeutic use exemption Certainly, I don’t think a guy who has popped a positive test for steroids should ever get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone and I I guess, in a perfect world, we would eliminate it completely.

51:21 I understand performance enhancing drugs are a big problem across all professional sports, but TRT seems to be a bigger problem in MMA than it is in these other sports. I would just like to see them get rid of it because then you start to flip the coin and say for a guy like Michael Bisping, I mean, I’d like to see what kind of damage he could do as a dirty fighter. It’s also tricky because there are some fighters like Bizping who, you know, clean fighters who feel like it’s their obligation to come out against the fighters that are using.

51:54 But that is not sort of the majority opinion. You know, there are fighters like Dominic Cruz who promises to me that he’s never put anything illegal in his body. But he doesn’t feel like it’s his obligation to come out against guys who are using. And I guess part of me would like to see the fighters who are clean come out and really take a stand and try to do what they can to help change what really is bordering on an epidemic type problem in MMA. Right.

52:19 You know, these guys in the Tour de France have these passports and then they reckon that’s what ultimately kind of got Lance Armstrong because they have to carry around this document that pretty much has a history of everything they’ve put in the tests and I think it’s something because it’s kind of a real time where you at and I was just wondering if you think in the future maybe that’s something MMA has. Yeah, potentially. I mean, I you know, I think blood testing is sort of Tricky, you know and something that you know We’re starting to see some of the major sports in the US adopt it for human growth hormone But I think it’s going to be a problem Forever really I indefinitely because I think you know, the chemists are going to be one step ahead of the drug testers or whatever I just I think Testosterone replacement therapy is something that you can fairly easily eliminate, you know And to me, I just think we need to be ahead of it and you know, I would like to see it outlawed and you know, it’s unfortunate for those fighters that maybe really do have this condition and a condition that hasn’t been brought about by steroid use to not be able to use it, you know, when there is a legitimate medical condition there, but I’ll turn the question on you guys.

53:22 I mean, how many of the fighters who have received a therapeutic use exemption do you think really had hypergonaism at a young age, you know? It seems unlikely. Yeah, I’m very sceptical. I slightly dodged the question when the same issue came up the other day when we’re talking to Gath. I sometimes think that some of the criticism that’s levelled of people from France is a little bit unqualified. People don’t really appreciate all of the complexities in the issue. Lance Armstrong, of course, was usually in the news quite recently and a lot of people, a lot of people turned against him and I really had the sense that he was being scapegoated and just being crucified for an issue that’s much larger.

54:14 Maybe it’s probably worth pointing people towards the Victor Conde podcast on the Joel Rogan show where he really talks a lot in depth about the complexities of steroid testing and what goes on there and much more in depth than I could possibly say and much more educated way than I could say, but that’s probably worth listening to before people start to judge a very complicated issue just in terms of these guys are cheating and these guys are not. Yeah, it’s a complicated issue. We had Tim Ferriss sitting there a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about a drug called Provigil, I think which is an narcolepsy drug, and he swears that Olympic sprinters are on it, you know, and this is just something that makes your brain, you know, your brain fire a little bit quicker. So I do think the chemists are always going to be a step ahead, but something like TRT, I know it seems kind of to be a blatant thing. So thank you for your opinion there. I’m going to move you on quickly to women in the MMA, in MMA, Ronda Rousey, the whole thing. Are you excited to see them come in? It’s funny because Dana White, I think a year or two ago, said never, and now that’s changed. I love Ronda.

55:17 I don’t know how you can’t, but what are your thoughts? Well, you know, I was skeptical in the past, but not because I didn’t necessarily enjoy watching women fight, I just didn’t know that there was the depth to really have a division or to have multiple divisions in the UFC. But I think from Dana White’s standpoint, I hate to put words in his mouth, but what it really took was somebody like Ronda Rousey, who is as dynamic a fighter and finisher as she is a personality, to really raise his eyebrows, you know, because I think as great as Gina Carano was, she wasn’t the dynamic personality that Ronda Rousey is.

55:49 She wasn’t shooting from the hip and telling it like it is. Ronda Rousey just has this, just such a dynamic quality, just an infectious way about her that I think… She’s third Diaz brother. I think so. She would certainly take that as a compliment, you know.

56:03 But I don’t know about her extracurricular activities, but she just has, she has it, you know, not just as a fighter, but as a personality. And I think that’s what really facilitated this whole thing coming about. I love that they’re getting the main event nod. you know, I thought it would have been a mistake to make them the co-main event because it’s a title fight, they deserve it, women deserve this, I just, my long-term view is that there isn’t gonna be the debt to have two or three women’s divisions, and I hope to be wrong on that.

56:31 But, you know, I do think that building an Ultimate Fighter show around Ronda Rousey and Misha Tate would really be something that could help the sport, you know. Coaching men or coaching women? Coaching women. Coaching women. Yeah, well, and, you know, maybe they would do half men and half women, you know, in two different weight classes like they’ve done in the past, but I just feel like that Rousey Tate rematch is something that needs to happen.

56:52 And I think if you could get some steam behind it by doing the reality show, I think that would be a way to not only fill out the roster in terms of women in the UFC, but to really just highlight women’s mixed martial arts, which can be as exciting as the men’s game, you know? But I’m really curious to see what Liz Carmouche does with this opportunity, because it’s the opportunity of a lifetime for her. And as she said on UFC Primetime, Nobody expects her to win.

57:16 She’s one of the biggest underdogs in MMA history in any fight, in a title fight or otherwise. I mean, she is a massive underdog. Nobody’s given her, it’s huge. Yeah, I think it might even be worse than that. I thought last time I saw Rhonda was maybe minus 1,000, you know, I think maybe plus 950 or something like that for Liz Carmouche.

57:34 So huge opportunity for her and for women. And no, it’s exciting, man. You know, it really is something that I think a lot of us didn’t think would happen this quickly. And, you know, I think all the women in the sport, whether it’s Gina Cron or Cyborg or Rousey or Carmouche, they all deserve Misha Tate, they all deserve credit, but I think Rousey deserves the most credit because ultimately the decision rests with Dana White and the UFC brass and it took someone like Ronda to really raise their awareness and to sort of, you know, get them to commit.

58:07 So, you know, as much as I credit all the women and all the pioneers, Rosie, what’s her last accent. There are a lot of women who deserve credit, but I think Rhonda deserves the bulk of it. It’s amazing how one woman could have accelerated the adoption of female MMA by maybe even five years into the UFC. Yeah. Sure.

58:28 I mean, just to be sort of a devil’s advocate here, do you think Rhonda Rosie would have had the same success if she’d been ugly? It’s a good question because I think that does play into it so you know I would probably say no you know she knows how to play it up fair play to her yeah absolutely but she’s also not somebody that you know wears makeup on her own she’s not somebody that is obsessed with vanity you know so I think she has that working for her as well but I really think what tipped the scale for Dana was the personality I mean she’s just like him you know she doesn’t give a fuck you know and I think that you know that That goes a long way because she really is organic and the Ronda Rousey that you see in UFC Primetime is the same Ronda Rousey in every one of them.

59:17 Personality sell fights. I mean, would Shale Sonnen have the heavyweight shot if it wasn’t to Shale talking all that stuff? So if Ronda uses her looks, I mean, I guess it is a personality to sell tickets at the end of the day. Sure. talking about the depth of the division store, I’m wondering where are the next set of challenges?

59:38 I mean, Ronda Rousey’s already pretty much gone through everyone in that division. I’m not sure where they’re gonna come from. No, you’re right, and I think a lot of people wanna hear me talk about Tate Rousey. They don’t necessarily see that as a competitive fight, given the way it went down the first time. I would disagree.

59:53 I think Misha Tate has plenty for Ronda, and I think right now, other than Cyborg, is the woman best equipped to end Rousey’s reign here. But you’re right, it’s a problem. And I think that’s why for Liz Carmouche, she can really upset the apple cart here if she comes through and just put a wrench, I think, in a lot of the long-term plans. And I don’t even know if they have any plans for Tate and Rousey to do a reality show or if Misha would be the next challenger.

1:00:21 But I think the UFC needs Rousey to try to move this thing forward. And you’re right, I don’t know where those women are coming from. I know Invicta has some traction, but, you know, again, I don’t think there is elite, elite talent just waiting to come into the UFC. So it’s definitely an issue. And to your point about Chael Sonnen and Ronda and getting these title fights, you know, this is a tough sport, man.

1:00:44 You know, and I look at professional athletes as a whole and I don’t know that any group of pro athletes have it as hard as these fighters do because oftentimes winning isn’t enough. You know, you got to win, you got to entertain. And by the way, you got to have a personality, you know, and in every other injured and be in the right place at the right time, right? Yeah, and there’s just so many factors Whereas if you take health out of it in other sports, all you got to do is win and you move on You know you win ugly and as long as you’re healthy, you’re still playing the next week, you know or the next day and in MMA It’s just not that way and that’s why you know, you’ll hear us talk about these new UFC fighter rankings And then these are not official rankings, you know, they have nothing to do with Sean Shelby or or Joe Silva And they probably won’t have a ton to do with our matchmaking.

1:01:29 But you hear so many people talk about these rankings, and they really don’t mean a ton. It’s a nice conversation piece, and it’s nice graphically, I think, to see Cub Swanson, the sixth-ranked guy, versus Dustin Poirier, the seventh-ranked guy. But being the number two guy in the world doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting the title shot. And those are from polls of media of everyone, or is it just media polls? It’s just media.

1:01:53 I mean, they are on UFC.com. I think it’s about 75 media members. And there were some media members that didn’t want to take part in them. And they only ranked the UFC fighters. So fighters from other organizations won’t be in there.

1:02:04 And again, you know, like we have Joe Silva and Sean Shelby’s rankings, you know, that Kenny and I have and we meet with them and we sort of get the pulse of these divisions and where they’re thinking a winner of a certain fight might put them going forward. But they have nothing to do with these rankings. and I’m sure that Joe and Sean’s rankings in certain divisions look very different than what you see on paper at UFC.com. Fair enough. John, you’ve been with the organization like a year.

1:02:33 I was wondering, how have the fans treated you and how have they misperceived you as a personality? Like you said, you’re kind of out there and you got to come off as this kind of clean cut image, but you’re only on camera for so much time, and yeah, how have you been received? Well, the fans have been great, and I would hearken back to my days on MMA Live where I felt this great support from the fans, really here in the UK, foremost. And first, before anybody else, I felt the support from the fans in the UK that embraced me right out of the shoot when we were doing MMA Live.

1:03:02 It’s a mixed bag, you know? I mean, when I did my first play-by-play event in Nashville, I would say 70% of the feedback I got on Twitter was just hate, and I got a death threat. I mean, you wouldn’t believe some of the stuff. Because they were comparing you to Rogan. Yeah, and you know, and it’s interesting when people compare me to Joe Rogan, because we don’t even do the same job.

1:03:19 I mean, they have me doing things that Joe does, like I MC the way in and I do the post-fight interviews, which Goldie doesn’t do, but other than that, he’s the analyst, I’m the play-by-play guy. We do completely different jobs. So sometimes those comparisons are lost on me a little bit. Overall though, I feel embraced by the fans and there’s definitely more positivity than negativity. And I feel like, and Kenny would speak to this show-by-show, I think we’re getting more and more embraced, but you know, I do feel misunderstood.

1:03:48 And you know, part of that falls on me. I try to be as natural as humanly possible, whether I’m on a podcast with you guys here, off the air with you guys, or doing live TV for the UFC. But sometimes that’s easier said than done. There’s so much that goes into it. You know, that sometimes maybe I do come across a little bit more of a dork than maybe I think I am in real life, and I’m sure my family would say, no, dude, you’re a fucking geek.

1:04:13 But yeah, but you know, sometimes it’s easier said than done to be yourself, Especially when you’re trying to execute a vision for a promoter. You know I had more carte blanche at ESPN to Be myself and say what I wanted to I mean I’m executing a vision here for the UFC and and maybe at times There are things I disagree with but for the most part I understand All of their initiatives and why they want me to sell something as a super fight or say a certain thing or not talk about Something I get everything that they’re asking me to do But sometimes you sacrifice some of your personality to execute that vision And that’s just something that I got to deal with and certainly if I have those frustrations I express them to my agents or to my boss at the UFC But but it really is what it is and at the end of the day, you know, I I have to live with myself And I have to I have to first and foremost I have to impress Lorenzo Fertitta Dana White and sort of that executive brass at the UFC So they have to be happy number one, you know when I was doing UFC 155 if Rogan And he’s a very powerful person in that building.

1:05:16 He’s built up a lot of goodwill. Obviously, he’s got the highest approval rating, I think, of any commentator or fighter in the entire sport. And if he didn’t like working with me at UFC 155, you can be sure I never would have been asked back. So that night, I felt like I had to impress him, maybe more so than anybody else. And as long as those people are happy, I can’t so much worry about the masses on Twitter.

1:05:37 And I respond to the haters and the lovers equally. I try to take the criticism, even if it’s not constructive, but I try to take it to heart. But at the end of the day, you know, I need to impress my bosses, first and foremost. And the fans are gonna come second to that. But, you know, overall, I do feel a little bit misunderstood and it’s nice to have opportunities like this to sort of let maybe some of the real me come through.

1:06:04 But it’s a constant, constant effort for me to try to be organic on the air and try to be relaxed on the air. But given the nature of the job, sometimes that’s easier said than done. How’d you find the UK funds versus the American funds? Well, I find them to be more knowledgeable overall. And I think part of it is just there’s so much competition for the sports dollar and the eye in the United States.

1:06:29 I mean, as Lorenzo Fertitta always says, we’re not mainstream. We’re almost mainstream. But we’re not mainstream. And I think in the United States, it’s a tougher sell. Because there’s so much else on that sports landscape with which to compete.

1:06:42 So I remember being in Nottingham, just being on the streets with these fans. They know this roster up and down, where I feel like in the United States, I mean, the hard cores are the hard cores, but I feel like it’s more of a surface knowledge of mixed martial arts and they know the big names. But I feel like a fan in the UK is maybe much more likely to know the career of, you know, C.B. Dolloway, for lack of a better name than some of the casual Americans.

1:07:07 Does that make them more inclined to be critical of you? Yeah, I think it makes them more inclined to be critical, but also more inclined to be complimentary. So it goes both ways. But again, I feel such a connection with the fans here because of MMA Live and it being on TV here for almost a year before it was even on TV in the United States. So you can be sure I’m always trying to reach out to the UK fans as much as possible.

1:07:31 But the criticism, it comes with the territory. And I think that you really early on in this business, you develop a thick skin. And I know it bothers the shit out of my mother my wife and you know some of the things that are written about me on Twitter and on some of these forums but I really you know I’m not in those chat rooms I’m not in those forums I got too much else going on I really do I have to focus on the job and you know when I get home you know I’m focused on my daughter and focused on the Tokyo show so you know after the fights I’ll go on Twitter and really just looking for feedback more than anything else but you can be sure that that the hate really doesn’t bother me it bothered me that night in Nashville because it was my first night on the job and I was just like holy shit what I get myself into death threats really you know but it doesn’t bother me it’s a part of the gig and you know I just try to embrace it like anything else you know I’ve noticed a little bit on the broadcast in in US broadcast you get a lot of booing even sometimes when I’ve been watching fights and there’s been a lot of action going on guys guys trading trading punches and not being passive and then somebody will start to boo and It’ll just grow in the crowd and I’m not even sure what the boom is for.

1:08:40 I’m glad he brought it up. It’s my biggest issue with the sport and especially with a lot of those crowds domestically and I think a lot of the issue is some of these people aren’t even watching MMA on TV and maybe they’re attending their first event and they just have no knowledge or appreciation of the ground game and of the wrestling component in mixed martial arts and I have issues with referees, too, who will stand up based upon maybe a crowd reaction, will stand up a fight that is very active on both sides on the ground. I don’t get it.

1:09:13 I would say the international crowds aren’t totally immune to some of that booing without a cause, but you’re right, it happens far less in places like this than it does in the United States. We don’t draw too much attention to it on the broadcast, but sometimes I’ll just look behind me and just, what are you booing? It seems random and then like you said it spreads like a virus and like some people start booing in the whole crowd’s like Oh, yeah, let’s boo But sometimes it seems like really random like it’s not necessarily because a ground fight isn’t going anywhere because they’re clinched against the cage Yeah, yeah, it’s more something that I’ve seen on on you. No, I think you’re right We’ve had the issue back-to-back years in Chicago to where The fight seemed to get booed for no apparent reason. I mean that Demetrius Johnson John Dodson fight was getting booze period I could not understand why and I would agree with you Pete that wouldn’t happen if that fight was at the O2 arena.

1:10:06 That’s interesting. I think sometimes we’ve touched on the term the B team before. Sometimes I’ve got the sense that UK fans feel like they get a weaker card over here and maybe it’s because the paper a few times don’t match up that it doesn’t go out well in the U.S. But yes, I mean, the current car, like you said before, this weekend is looking really strong. But sometimes I think people have felt a little bit let down by the headline that hasn’t been exciting.

1:10:37 I think Dana White came out and just said he can’t sell a pay-per-view here because of the time difference. Is it pure? That’s one thing you said, but I don’t know if that’s the only factor. Well, that’s certainly a big factor, and you’ll notice that most of the pay-per-views here in 2013 will be in North America, and a lot of the FX and Fuel TV shows are going to be in Brazil, so we can, you know, the main card goes live at midnight in Brazil and it airs in prime time in the United States, you know.

1:11:01 And I think one of the issues for this show in particular on Fuel TV is that the main card airs at noon in Las Vegas on Saturday. You know, not a lot of people are going to be watching that fight card at noon on Saturday, you know. So these cards internationally, I think, you know, that is a huge part of the equation. As far as the depth or the talent on the cards, I think that a lot of the fans in the UK in the past have gotten some thin cards, so they still have that mentality.

1:11:29 I don’t know how you could look at this UFC on Fuel TV 7 card on paper and think it’s thin. Title fight on British soil for the first time since 2008, it’s the first ever title fight on Fuel TV. And to me, you got a lot of big boys, often times when I’m looking at a card, I want to see the big guys. as much as I like the lower weight classes, I wanna see middle weights on up. We’ve got two great light heavyweight fights on this card, heavyweight fight in Japan next week.

1:11:56 So to me, I look at the weight classes a lot to try to see how they’ve lined up a fight card. But I understand some of those criticisms in the past. I don’t quite get it on this card, to be honest with you. I think the co-main event is outstanding as well. And I would ask you guys, I feel like I hear from a lot of the fans in the UK that they don’t necessarily wanna see the British stars.

1:12:20 Other than maybe Dan Hardy or Michael Bisping, they’re not getting all jacked up to see the John Hathaways and the John Maguires because they feel like they’re getting those guys instead of getting some of the big name stars. And I don’t know, I mean, I feel like in the United States, like we really do, they do in certain markets wanna see those local stars. And I don’t know that the appeal is still there as much as it has been in the past here in the UK. When I come to London, I want to see a normal UFC card.

1:12:47 I mean, I love to see Hathaway and those local guys, especially guys like that, that have had a few fights in the UFC. Right. But I don’t know. I think Hathaway suffers a little bit from the, you know, we’re talking about the big personality thing, that he’s not a chill son and kind of outspoken guy. But actually, when you just take him on his merits, I love to see Hathaway fight.

1:13:05 I think he’s just one of the best way out the way it’s done. Yeah, no, I agree. But do you think people here want to see those local fighters as much, or do they just want to see a big UFC card? Yeah, I think maybe the enamored with the big American personalities and maybe miss the quality of a couple of guys that are sort of relegated to the relegated to the undercard fights. You know, I wonder how this card would have been perceived if the main event was Rampage Jackson against Glover Teixeira, which we saw a couple weeks ago on Fox.

1:13:35 If you have Rampage main eventing a show here in London, I think people get all excited Because he’s a huge name, but when you think about it, the fight between Henan Brown and Michael McDonald is a much bigger fight between two of the best in the world right now. And Glover to chair may end up being one of the best light heavyweights in the world, but I feel like if you have one of those huge names at the top of this card, the perception is that it’s an unbelievable fight card. When you look at this fight card on paper, excuse me, if you break it down name by name, it’s pretty much as good as it has been on Fuel TV.

1:14:09 Yeah, a lot of times, those big name fights are just the worst ones of the card. And a lot of times the undercards are the most exciting, because these guys feel like they’re fighting to get in the UFC, to stay in the UFC, they’re not fighting to keep their eight year career going on. So yeah, sometimes you get those. And we got Paul Sasse on the prelims here this weekend. I mean, this is a guy who was undefeated until a few months ago.

1:14:28 So I look at the depth of this card, I’m like, if Paul Sasse isn’t even on the main card, I mean, you know? So I don’t know, I mean, I get the frustration, I do, and then the other thing I would say too, this is the 13th fight card in the United Kingdom, the sixth time we’ve been to London. I’m from Boston, Massachusetts. We’ve been there one time. Now, I know they’ve been in the United States in a bunch of different markets, but believe me, I got boys in Boston who are like, dude, what are these UK fans complaining about?

1:14:52 They get a card every five months. They’ve been to Boston one time. The UK does get a lot of love between all the cities. John’s got a few more questions before we wrap up. I wanna know, how do you sell this to your wife and family?

1:15:05 And do you have to keep selling it? Because Jesus, I mean, you said you’re on the road like 120 days a year or something like that. It’s a tough sell. You know, it was an easier sell when we didn’t have children. Now, of course, we have my daughter Riley and then another girl on the way who’s due in April.

1:15:19 So, you know, I’ll miss the Sweden show. But it really is, it’s the toughest part of the job for me. And I think if I were not to do this thing for the next 20 years, it would be because the international travel. Because instead of being away for three days or four days, I’m away for six or seven days. And I guess for a guy with young children, that’s just not ideal.

1:15:37 So it is a tough sell, believe me. And when I took this job and being very candid with you guys, none of the UFC fight night type shows, the shows that are on FX and Fuel TV, zero of them had ever been outside of the United States, nevermind outside of North America. Now it seems like all the shows on FX and Fuel TV are not only outside of the US, but outside of North America. So I’ve been to Australia three times, China once, Brazil three times, it’s my second trip to England.

1:16:03 And it just makes for a lot of time away. And you couple that with Ultimate Insider, flying to LA once a week usually, I think I had 127 flights last year. So it is a tough sell. Of course the flip side of that is it’s my dream job. It’s everything professionally that I’ve ever wanted and I try to balance it as best I can but then you start to think what really matters in life and my career is certainly not the number one priority.

1:16:31 At times it was. When I was a single guy and I was first starting out in broadcasting, I would drop everything to do this. focus you know I would get home from doing my radio show and I would watch sports for six more hours then go back and talk about it the next day now I go home and I can’t immerse myself in the content as much as I used to because I have a kid to take care of and I have a family to support and it’s it’s just a different ball game but my wife is my support system my backbone and hopefully she allows me to do this as long as possible but you know it’s tough on both of us I’m not gonna lie you know it gets progressively harder to leave my daughter as she becomes more aware that I’m leaving and you know I mean I can’t I cry when I leave her now you know it’s it’s a lot harder than it used to be but you know I still feel like I’m relatively young in the business and I don’t plan on relinquishing the seat every time soon you know every time I sit down to call a fight I need I feel like I need to earn my seat you know the UFC and not a lot of people know this they can terminate me without cause at any time and it’s not a detail that I that I offer up regularly in interviews but I think it’s important to note that I feel not unlike a fighter that I need to go out there and earn that seat you know it’s not a job that I take lightly and maybe at times I take it too seriously but they can get rid of

1:17:45 Me at any time and I feel like I’m working show to show and it’s my job to to you know put my best foot forward and to execute their vision and maintain that seat because nothing’s guaranteed. I feel that as a fan because the UFC is this juggernaut and they’re a money-making, well-oiled machine and if a cog isn’t working, I mean there’s a big picture going on there and I doubt they would think twice about sacrificing any one member in order to make the vision of that. Exactly.

1:18:13 And I think for a lot of broadcasters and a lot of contracts, they need to have cause to terminate you. And at times I was thinking, God, is this going to be a deal breaker? I mean, they can fire me at any time, but for me, it was like, this is the job that I wanted and if they needed that condition, then so be it. So 20 years from now, what’s John Anik doing? I hope I’m still working for the UFC.

1:18:34 If Goldie has retired at that point in time, I guess he’d be 68 or 70 years old, so I’m hoping to be calling UFC pay-per-views. I don’t know that I’ll do this forever. And again, I have to see how the international travel plays out, because that is a huge variable when it comes to this. But I hope to still be in sports television at some point in time. I guess if I had one sort of professional dream, it would be that somehow I could work alongside my identical twin brother.

1:18:58 I miss the guy like crazy, I only see him once or twice a year and life is so short to begin with that it just doesn’t seem right that I spend five or six days a year with my favorite person in the world. So if there was a way professionally to work with him again, he used to be an actor, majored in musical theater, so if there’s a way to work with him either in sports or in business that would be sort of a dream of mine. But I’m just going to keep plugging away, man, you know, and it’s a pleasure, as you guys know, sitting in the seats that you’re in, it’s great to be able to do this and call it work, you know.

1:19:33 I used to teach autistic kids, I used to dig ditches with an electrician, I used to bag groceries, I mean, I really have done it all, and this doesn’t feel like work most of the time. And I just feel very blessed to be in this position, and I feel very fortunate, you know, I’ve had some luck, I mean, you know, I’ve been ready when opportunities have presented themselves but I’ve also got some breaks and I don’t know that you really get anywhere as a fighter a broadcaster an electrician if you don’t get a break here or there and thankfully my breaks have come at the right times and I’ve been ready to sort of embrace the opportunities but it’s been fun man and it’s fun doing stuff like this you know yeah thanks for coming on I was about to say what your advice to a 20-year-old but I think you kind of gave it you know it’s like be ready for for the opportunity right and be ready by doing the work beforehand right yeah well and you know cuz if Pete got a a call to fight for the UFC in Tokyo in two weeks’ time, you know?

1:20:24 I’d be there. Exactly. Right? And a lot of fighters maybe wouldn’t be. You know, I talked to Dominic Cruz when we were in Chicago working together a couple of weeks ago, and he said, you know, when I was 5 and 0, I got a call.

1:20:35 I weighed 159 to fight 48 hours later at 145. I got the call. I said, I’ll call you right back. And he hung up the phone, and he tells the story a lot better than I will, but he was pacing back and forth, and he was like, this is it, bro. or are you gonna fucking do this or not?

1:20:49 Like any callback right away and he’s like I’m in and he drove to San Diego and he won the fight and got both his eyes shut and his leg busted up and broken nose but he was like all right, I’m gonna do this and he sort of felt like he had arrived and you just have to be ready and I’ll never forget my audition at ESPN Radio. I sent out 250 demo tapes and I only got two calls back and one of them happened to be the ESPN Radio National Network, go figure, I can’t get a job with some remote town in Alabama, but the ESPN Radio Network called me back, and when I did my audition, you do your audition live on the air. And I was nervous as hell, man, but I felt like, hey, dude, if you can’t do a two-minute sports update and hit the post, you know what I mean, and get out before the commercial steps on you, then maybe you’re not ready to do this.

1:21:34 And thankfully, that first audition, I was ready, and it helped facilitate a six-year career for me there at ESPN. But you just gotta put yourself in a position to, always be close, and they say, always be ready. As long as you’re ready, I think you’ll be able to take advantage of those opportunities, you know, that’s good advice I guess life’s too short not to go all in well, and I would think for you as you know doing this pot Who knows? I mean you might get you know a radio opportunity that might have you do, you know an audition and you know I have no doubt that you’d be ready to go do that and kill it You know, it’s just weird like it’s if you keep doing what what you love doing and then you keep plugging away and make sure You’re consistent every time then all of a sudden like, you know for us like four months ago, you know Rogan tweets me and says do you want to come on my show and it’s just like yes you know you know like yes but like never thought it would happen but we were just ready and just did it and so I feel that’s really good advice you know pick something you do love it and then rep it out and then be ready like you said sometimes it’s luck but then some people say you know I’m luckier when I when I when I practice you know yeah yeah some quote was it Nick Faldo or another film sculptor yeah the more practice the luckier I get it’s a good way to put And the passion is obviously a huge part of it too, because I was very passionate about

1:22:46 Teaching autistic kids, and I did job placement for a lot of autistic teenagers, but just the money wasn’t there. And I didn’t have a degree in special education, but I always say if I won the lottery, I’d go back with special education. Because not only are you making a difference, but it’s something that I was really passionate about my ability to make a difference. So if you don’t like your job, man, that’s another bit of advice. Go find something else to do.

1:23:11 My first radio job, I was making $15,000 a year, you know, and bagging groceries or teaching kids on the side, whatever it took, you know, to try to get a foot in the door. But I mean, it was minimum wage, you know, so. Wow, that’s awesome advice. John, thanks so much for coming. I mean, Jesus, he flew in last night from the States, comes in here, he’s got to get back for a beast being interviewed.

1:23:31 You really went out of your way to come into the studio. So thanks. Thank you guys. My pleasure. Keep up the good work.

1:23:37 And I assume we’ll be back here probably in a few months and hopefully we can do it again. Bring your gear. Yeah, I do it. I would love to train with you Pete. Thank you, man. Awesome Well, that’s cool Well, if you’re listening to us and you want to see our beautiful faces, you can come check us out on YouTube Channel London Real TV. We’re on Twitter John’s on Twitter. It’s at John. Yeah, J1 underscore a and I can and I can so follow him and Yeah, come check our website out at London Real TV. We’re on Facebook. It’s all going on. It’s a big party. So please come get involved and And that’s it, thanks to you both, and until then, it’s about the journey, as we say.