Sumayya Jamil - Food is Love

Full transcript: Sumayya Jamil on London Real

0:15 Good afternoon and welcome to London Real. My name is Brian Rose. I’m here as usual with Mr. Nick Gabriel and joining us today is, uh oh, is that a girl? Joining us today is… I’m scared. I haven’t seen a girl in so long. It’s Sumayya Jamil. Welcome. Hi. Wow, thanks for coming on. We needed a girl really desperately. I hope you’re right. This is our 14th episode and it’s about time.

0:45 Right? So I want to talk more about Samaya later,

1:02 But anyways, welcome. I’m going to give her just a quick intro. Samaya, I think by day, is I think a corporate attorney in the city, and then by night, she runs this crazy website called pukapaki.com, which is all about food, and I wanna hear more about that very, very soon.

1:29 And in the meantime, Nick, can you kick us off? So, do you want me to drop the bomb? I don’t know, I don’t know what the bomb is. Man, I was thinking, because it’s the first goal we’ve had on here, I didn’t know what to ask. usually come up with quite a deep question.

1:45 Sumayya, what do you think happens when we die? Ooh, I hope you get lots and lots of food wherever we go. That’s one thing that will keep us going. Oh, I don’t know, really. I guess we go somewhere nice and fuzzy and soft and happy.

1:58 That’s what I hope. Anyway. You’re originally from Pakistan, is that right? So what religion are you? So I’m a Muslim, born Muslim.

2:07 And I guess we believe that, you know, obviously we go to heaven or hell. it’s pretty clear-cut. There is a hell in Islam. Yeah, definitely, clearly. So yeah, I mean, I’ve been brought up with that belief, so I kind of, I guess I don’t, I think of it in the sense that, you know, there’s possibly two places that one could go, and depending on how good or bad our soul has been in this world will probably go wherever deserved. I guess this hell just sounds a lot more exciting, but everyone wants a t-shirt which said, good girls get to go to heaven, bad girls get to go everywhere. So you don’t sound tremendously religious.

2:48 Well I am but I guess I’m more spiritual than religious. I think religion is there and I’m bought with a lot of beliefs and I have my values from my religion and from my culture but you know I’m very clear about my beliefs. I don’t like to impose them on other people but it’s within me and I think I’m spiritual and And I believe, if it’s about believing in a God, yes I do. I believe in an entity that obviously made us or whatever. But again, I don’t like talking about it with people.

3:14 I don’t go around proclaiming that I’m Muslim because that’s my belief and that’s what I was brought up with. So it’s cool. But I’m comfortable with my religious beliefs. That’s where I ended. You know, when you were coming over here, I was thinking since you were very much into food, I was thinking something my grandmother once said, which was the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.

3:33 And I remember telling Nick you were bringing us some food over and it sounds simple but like we both were really excited like to have someone cook for us and how can we have this like primal thing about getting excited about that I think it’s just something about food there’s this you know that’s I guess when you eat you have all these endorphins that get released and they kind of bring this pleasure to the mouth and it’s a sensual experience I mean to me food has always been like a sensual experience to your mouth to your brain to your stomach to how you feel after eating it. And I guess it’s in the same thing. If you eat too much, you feel really ill and it makes you feel low. So I think it’s the thing about food is it’s all to do with your senses and especially Pakistani food and food in the East, if you see all the different ingredients we use are, you know, they make you feel hot and they make you feel cold and they make you can feel them, you can smell them. And I find that in the West, the food is very interesting. It’s very sort of, you know, I guess not as spicy or, you you know, tasty is the same way that our food is.

4:34 To me, that’s how I feel. But there are levels of enhancement. If you go to like gourmet meals, if you go and have a Michelin star meal, there’ll be other senses that’ll probably, you know, attractive to look at and interesting flavors, but they’re very subtle. So I think everything about food together brings about an experience. And anyway, for me, that’s what’s important.

4:53 The experience of food is what makes me wanna feel like living. And I think men, I guess it not just feeds your tummies, but I guess you get very excited about it. don’t know you guys you tell me I don’t I mean girls think very differently about food they do I think you know like the one of the aspects of the feminine is that nurturing essence right and as men like what in my personal experience I’m more attracted to feminine woman than I am to like androgynous or masculinized woman. And I mean, when a woman makes her meal, it’s such a nurturing act. Do you know what I mean? It’s like, and she’s even more feminine. She’s got like, I mean, if there’s a goal in my apartment, she’s making me dinner or something. It’s like, she’s got that kind of goddess quality to it. Do you know what I mean?

5:45 It’s like a caring kind of thing. Yeah. That’s just my theory. Especially in this day and age of like, you know, ready to make, you know, Tesco meals and stuff. Yeah, probably start. And it’s also that, you know, kind of, I guess in a way it it kind of brings about that kind of love for your mom that you have, you know, because she always used to make you these meals and there’s an association with how you felt when your mom made you those meals.

6:06 Like you said, a nurturing feeling of feeling of safety, feeling of love. And I think all of those things, if a woman cooks for you, I guess you feel those comfortable feelings that you probably did in your childhood. And I think food probably just because the first person that I’ve cooked for us is our moms. So I think maybe that’s something about that. And I think a lot of, and it’s not just women who cook really well, of course, men can be amazing cooks, not just chefs, but cooks as well.

6:32 But in the long run, I guess that’s what appeals to men when a woman cooks for them. Just doesn’t happen very often. No. It’s just not happening more often. Big shout out to Brian’s girlfriend.

6:42 So you talked about food in the East as far as in Pakistan and versus say food in the West. I mean, West is so general because you have food in France or food in England or food in the US, it’s so different. But do people take their food more seriously or in a more ritualistic way in the East or in Pakistan than, say, here? Well, I guess in Pakistan, it’s all about food. There’s very little, sadly, there’s very little pleasure left in at least a country like Pakistan.

7:08 I mean, India is slightly different. It’s more open society. But in Pakistan, religious reasons, things have been a lot more closeted up. You can’t really drink in public. You can’t really go out to clubs and stuff.

7:21 So I think food is developed into such an experience and a part of life in our countries that really the only excitement is if you go to someone’s house, you get an amazing meal and everyone is really excited about it. If you’re going out to eat, everyone says, oh my God, we’re going out to eat or have a big biryani together and stuff like that. So food is a part of everyone’s life in Pakistan in a big way because that’s one of the biggest pleasures we have.

7:41 So it’s a real ritual in our country. I mean, you go to someone’s house always about what’s being cooked and I know that’s the same in the Western society but for us it’s really very little pleasure so it’s so it’s social as well it’s a very very social thing so really the only thing you can do is go out and eat okay yeah what’s your relationship like with food it’s pretty fucked up well I mean cuz you know you you trained as a as an athlete for a lot a large point in your life and I remember you said I think I wanted the podcast that it used to be and I’ve been guilty of this in the past that you know I need my two grams of protein per kilogram of body mass and and eating too was more like to build a machine, right? Man, it’s to build a machine, exactly.

8:18 And it got to the point where, I mean, I wouldn’t even consider the taste aspect of food. I mean, I saw something already hated like anchovies or something, but food was just designed to nourish my body and help me move towards my objectives. And I mean, my ex-girlfriend, she always used to say to me, she was like, you definitely have issues with food. And now I’m pretty chilled out now about it, But still, if I make a food choice, anything, whether I’m in a cafe or at someone’s house or whatever, like the first thing I’ll run it through that filter is like, does it have any trans fat in it?

8:53 Does it have sugar in it? Do you know what I mean? And I don’t know if I’ll ever change, yeah. You do that as well? Yeah, I’m just like, what’s the protein value?

8:59 Like, you know, I was in the Lake District for New Year’s and I was up there and it’s very English, obviously. And I wanna get your opinion on English cuisine. Absolutely. And even if you offend some people. I have a very strong opinion.

9:09 And I was just looking for a protein-based meal that was gonna be somewhat healthy, like a steak, or a piece, yeah, or a nice piece of cod, or not cod, or sea bass, or something with vegetables. And it was just like, good luck, you’re not gonna find that up there. And it was a little frustrating for me. And then I visit my brother in Geneva, and down there it’s very French, and the food is much more of a ritual down there. And my brother’s American, but he speaks French now, and I said to him, I said, would you ever not have wine with dinner?

9:36 And he just looked at me like I was smoking crack. And I asked my little six-year-old nephew, Alexi. And I said, Alexi, would you ever go a day without eating cheese? And he just looked at me like, Uncle Brian, you’re smoking crack. That’s part of our life.

9:51 We’re in Switzerland and we eat cheese and we have wine with a meal. So it’s just very different. It is. For me, it’s like I’m a bit like you, because I train for math and stuff. So I am pretty particular about what I eat now.

10:03 And I don’t eat carbs, and that’s really weird, because everyone in my country eats carbs. you can’t live without carbs. And I’m really low on the carb. And your website is fairly low carb, right? Yeah, it is.

10:13 I mean, I have a few recipes on rice because they are traditional. I love rice, man. Yeah, you know, I have to say rice is my weakness and I do like the rice dishes, but again, you know, I’ll eat probably just once a week or something like that, really tiny portion. But that’s because I’ve grown up, my family’s always been particular about portion control and calories and all that sort of stuff. So I, when I look at meals, I’m like, oh God, that’s too much carb, I can’t eat it.

10:34 You go into a cafe, you can’t eat anything because everyone’s sandwiches, pastries, Nothing. So in the end, I just pick up like a small little fruit bowl or something because that’s all you probably can eat in the lowest carb value. So yeah, I mean, it’s hard because, you know, in this country, I mean, if you want to talk about 90% of everything is carb-based. Is that this country or every country? Well, I mean, being in this country, I’m just speaking about London, but yeah, I mean, nearly every country, anything yummy and sort of like full plated has always got 90% of the plate is full of carbs.

11:03 It’s true. Because they’re cheaper to produce, right? Keep it continuous, fill you up and fill you up and you know they kind of make you feel satisfied I guess. It’s true, if you go to the high street and try to find a nutritious high protein meal. That’s what I did.

11:15 No, you can’t find anything. It is hard. Well what do you think about English food? I know it’s changed a lot in London the last 10-20 years. I think London is an amazing place for a variety of different foods now.

11:25 I think it’s one of the best in the world. It definitely is, it’s nothing to compare to the London variety of food, but English food itself is a bit too starchy for my liking. I don’t want to really upset people, but I think it’s bland, it’s boring, it’s not very imaginative. It doesn’t bring about any sensory pleasure, I’m sorry. I’m preparing for the barrage of heat mail that’s gonna come in.

11:48 Do you wanna say something bad about the Queen before we let the next one? No, the Queen’s lovely, I like the Queen. Yeah, but they have also improved themselves. This is what the food was, and my dad studied in the UK in the 50s, and he says in those days all you could ever get was like fish and chips and that was it. But in saying that, the fish and chips has come a long way too.

12:06 I mean, you go to like nice gastropubs, you can fabulous crispy beer batter that actually I really enjoy. So you know, that is the basic English shooter’s white plan, but I think they’ve really come a long way and that’s what they should be credit for because really they’ve improved it and that you know, you could be still gross and starchy and horrible and some places you can still get that food, but you know, it’s improved. It’s gotten interesting. they’ve taken a lended a lot of you know experience from like you know sort of like French cuisine and Italian cuisine and brought in so many different flavors so you know there’s definitely that positive attribute to it that they’ve improved and what about French cuisine or American cuisine I mean it’s funny because we’re just an English Channel apart but when you go to France it’s totally different it’s like it you like you said it’s a ritual for them it is it’s like it’s a production it’s people don’t I mean they don’t eat sandwiches like walking down the street that concept is weird for them or you know or drinking a coffee on the go, it’s a sit-down.

13:00 No, it’s a sit-down. Yeah, it’s a production. My French buddy was one of my best friends in prison. He was over here and we walked into some store and he wanted a chocolate croissant and he looked at the croissant on offer and he… It was almost like he was about to wrench the look of the stain on his face.

13:20 He was like, what is this shit? And he turned his back on it and was like, wow, they take it seriously over there. They do, they do. French friend who lives in London now and she you know you go into like a coffee shop and she sees these croissants with like filling you know like cheese and ham and stuff inside and she’s like this is not how you eat a croissant this is just disgusting the English and the way that they treat the croissant is appalling you know it’s and I think French cuisine is fabulous again in the flavors are very simple but they do stuff to food that is it’s such a beautiful experience just to look at it and tasting is you know it’s heavenly and contrast is like the American experience where well I quite like the American experience I mean you know it’s interesting because it’s because America’s made out of so many different nationalities and and so you they’ve bought so much and they’ve actually you know put it together into very interesting cuisines like the Louisiana Cajun is just incredible I mean I love that and even New York I mean New York’s another London as far as different cuisines are concerned it’s got amazing restaurants but the rest of America too I mean, it is quite sort of, again, very high in carb and not very flavorsome.

14:25 And I mean, I know when I go to the U.S. and I go into supermarkets, I’m shocked at, like, the kind of stuff that’s sold. I mean, yes, there’s plenty of it, and you get complete ADD when you go into a supermarket. But it’s just not all that nice. The supermarkets are so huge.

14:37 They’re just… In the States. Yeah. I don’t think they’re very good, to be honest. No, I don’t really like…

14:42 It depends on where you are. I mean, if you go to some metropolitan areas, they can be quite good, and the beef is quite good because they have like a USDA grading system and that kind of thing. What’s your favorite food, Brian? Favorite food? What’s your favorite kind of food?

14:55 You know, and I want to ask her more about this later because I’m sure we want to define the difference between Indian and Pakistani food because I’m sure we’re going to have some controversy. But, you know, I have an Indian buddy in New York and he used to say when we go out to Indian food, he’s like, Brian, it’s the most efficient calorie delivery system on earth. You know, when we go to an Indian place and we just have like wonderful like meats and with some sauce or rice and like and there’s a lot of fresh you know just like grilled meats and things like that that I find in that cooking and it’s hard to say no to a meal like that and it’s it’s I’ve really haven’t had a bad Indian slash Pakistani meal that’s up there but um can you tell us a little bit about the differences differences between Pakistani and Indian food yeah obviously there’s a little rivalry there between the two countries well yeah I mean you know the rivalry is very political but Pakistanis and Indians get along famously so again we really do appreciate others cuisine and culture and you know it’s quite similar in many ways I guess the only real differences are the religious differences but they’re even not that important because we can speak pretty much the same language as you know spoken wise so yeah I mean the food is like we were all one country once so it is it does come from the same background I didn’t even know that I’m ashamed really well we were just

16:08 India and in 1947 we a partitioned and we became two separate countries and the Kashmir is still the disputed area so three separate countries really was yeah well yeah it’s also Bengal so Bangladesh yeah well it was trying to split Pakistan West Pakistan and then we split that because Bengal wanted to be by itself so there’s long religious lines there the religious reasons were the main thing I mean you know the Muslims of India always felt like they couldn’t live with the Hindus of India and so they were all you know for the British left, it was all quite difficult, and it was just better for them to have separate countries. And in the end, there were a couple of very important people that made the countries happen, and it came about. But the food lends itself from the Indian background.

16:49 So I guess Pakistani food is the food of what Muslim Indians used to eat. So it has a lineage of Mughal sort of background. A lot of the food is like from the Mughals, the kitchen of the Mughal kings. What’s that word? The Mughal kings were the kings that ruled India many, many years ago, of course, in one country and they were like 12th century or I don’t even remember my history.

17:13 But yeah, I should have brushed up on that Mughal kings. Yeah. So they were they were actually the Mughal empire was in the seat of all literary and, you know, art, art architecture was absolutely stunning. And even now today, what India is architecturally, when all buildings are all 90 percent of them built by the Mughals like Taj Mahal. Yeah, okay. There was a mughal king who built it. It was a mughal king who built it for his wife as a temple or you know to her. They were all Muslim kings so they built it as a grave, her tombstone is still there and so you know obviously the east was where all the culture comes from really. I mean those countries were you know thriving and the Muslim art and architecture was thriving and the food was very much rich and creamy. A lot of the stuff that that you still eat is like the cream, and the pistachios, and the saffron, all comes from the kitchens of the Mughals.

18:06 And they loved all these, because these spices were very hard to find, and they had to be traded from all sorts of places to come in. And obviously, the kings got to eat it. So the food comes, and they were all Mughals. So a lot of the food in the Muslim Indian people came from there. But nevertheless, there was a lot of influences from the Hindu food, which was the vegetables, and the stir-fry veggies, and the stuff that you get to eat a lot here now in the Indian restaurants.

18:33 But you know, there’s a very, the very clear distinction between Pakistani food is that we eat a lot of meat, a lot of meat. So the, you know, obviously the vegetarian Hindus don’t eat as much. They don’t eat as much. I mean, they do now, and, but they’re still there, beef, you know, like the cow is sacred to them. So they won’t eat beef, but we eat beef, we’ll eat lamb, we eat mutton, which is the goat.

18:53 And you know, so we eat a lot of, so a lot of it is barbecued, and Pakistan, the really, real Pakistani food is all barbecued with a lot of barbecue. Is it barbecue or grilling? Is there a difference? My barbecue’s more like a real slow cook, isn’t it? Well, that’s what the US calls it barbecue.

19:05 Yeah, barbecue is pretty much cooked on coal. So we do a lot of that food. So naan breads and things like that. Wish we could have had some today. Yes, I know.

19:14 You’re not gonna let me offer that one. But you do OS. Yes, I do. I skipped lunch because of the promise that you made today. Yeah, I’m starving right now.

19:21 Okay, now I feel so guilty enough to cook you up. Do you find you let people down often in your life? No, I try not to. So I had a toddler jumping on my head this morning, so it’s a little bit hard to do stuff. That’s fair enough.

19:33 Do you ever think about quitting your day job and doing food full time? I will one day. You will one day. Oh, yeah. I hope my employees don’t hear this, but I will one day.

19:40 I mean, if you could just talk about your day job, I mean, what, you know? My day job, I do commercial law in an in-house place in a financial, well, it’s not financial, it’s a payment institution. And I actually work for a company that I’m sort of given out to, like, you know, basically, it’s not like a part time, but it’s in the sense that I kind of am lent out to clients for, so kind of sort of being freelance, yeah, sort of freelance. So I get to go to different banks and places like that and I work in house for six, seven months, whatever the project may be for.

20:11 So to like the 12 year old girls out there that want to grow up and be lawyers, what do you tell them? Well, I think it’s a great profession, I grew up in it because my dad’s a lawyer. But you know, it’s not for everyone and it’s like any profession and it’s a lot of hard work, it’s a lot of studying. And you know, there’s so many different parts of law that you can get into. And I have to say that commercial law is something that I really, really enjoy.

20:31 So I do enjoy it, but I love food more, and I love writing, and I love reading about food. I love meeting people who can talk to me about food. I love learning from them. So for me, it’s not something that you can make money with very quickly or at all, because if you’re lucky, you get someone that kind of gives you that break. But to me, I guess when you’re passionate about something, and I guess you guys know this, It doesn’t really matter if you’re gonna make money from it.

20:56 You just wanna explore the best way possible and it’s that exploration that gets you somewhere. Yeah, I think it’s important not to try to make money off of it. Just gotta do something that’s fun. I mean, Nick and I are having a hell of a fun doing this, just being a little creative. Yeah, exactly.

21:09 Do you find that it’s hard to be creative in your work? How long have you been doing it for? What, being a lawyer, 10 years. 10 years, yeah, okay. It’s funny, because I was 10 years in the city as well and do you think it’s just a nature of course if you do something, anything for 10 years you wanna change Where do you find it?

21:24 I don’t know. I think some people are really happy. I mean, I worked in a law firm in London, in a city law firm, and there were people that grew up knowing they’re going to be lawyers, and they went to university, the training contract they stayed on. All they ever want to do in life is be a partner. And to me, I couldn’t think of something more horrible than to be a partner in a law firm.

21:45 Really? Well, yeah. I mean, you kill yourself for another person, really, you find you become a part of it when you become a partner. you’re shooting yourself left, right and center trying to get the right clientele because you know if you don’t keep the numbers up, you’re gonna lose your partnership or you’re gonna be kicked out as a partner. So it’s always this tension and some people enjoy that challenge.

22:05 I have to say, like I said, some people are born into it and all they wanna do is that, but it wasn’t for me. But when I was back in Pakistan, I was working with my dad and that was totally different because obviously that was my baby, it was my dad’s business and it was a self-satisfaction that I got from working there. Also I was a litigator and I used to go to court And to me that, you know, I love talking as you know, and performing, you know, I like to take center stage.

22:27 So I got to do that as a litigator, miss that. When it comes to your, um, your cooking, so someone asked most of the professional people in my life, uh, if you had to rate yourself on a scale of one to 10, let’s say, uh, the finest chef or the finest cook of Pakistani food was a 10. Somebody knows nothing is a zero. Where would you place yourself? Four.

22:47 Wow. I’m never going to be satisfied with my cooking. Always want to feel like I need to know more I need to learn more. I don’t feel like I’m anywhere near where I mean Yes, I know things and I understand a lot of concepts that a lot of people probably don’t because I grew up My mom is a great cook and she taught me lots and lots of little tricks Which is what I want to share with people But I still feel like there’s so much about flavor about experiences putting things together I don’t know and I will I want to get there But I guess I’m one of those people who’s never satisfied and I want to keep trying to get to join the club I keep coming back to it, but I’m addicted to the show Kitchen Nightmares.

23:24 One of the first things he does is he goes in and he gets the owner and before he even eats anything in the restaurant, he said, how would you rate your food on a scale of one to 10? And the dude is always, or the woman is always like, oh, I’d say it’s pretty good. It’s about an eight or a nine. And then it comes to the table and Gordon’s just like, this is shit. So I’m guessing that her food is probably really, really good.

23:45 All right, Shajia, you’re aspiring for a lot more. Yeah, well, I think that, you know. But you don’t want to be a chef. You don’t want to do that. Well, I never want to be a chef.

23:54 It’s a hard job. It’s a tough gig, man. And there’s a lot of studying. And you know what I’ve done enough studying in my life. I don’t want to do any more.

24:00 But I definitely want to do it in a softer way, like read lots, learn lots by reading and meeting people, by experience. But I never want to really be a chef. And I don’t think I ever really want to run a restaurant, because it’s too much tension. And besides, I’m not a chef, and I don’t think I’d have the experience. And nevertheless, it’s too much of an expedition to do that.

24:22 And so really, all I really want to focus on is as much writing I can do, and maybe TV appearances later in the future, but with a view to just really learning more from people and learning from the experience of doing it. And it’s not just limited to Pakistani food. I’d love to learn everything. I love cooking thai. I love cooking sort of French now and then, Chinese.

24:45 But I cook a lot of Pakistani food because I love it, and it’s what comes naturally to me. Now, how long have you had the website, and what have been the highlights and the lowlights? Because I’m wearing similar businesses, but Nick and I created this from scratch three months ago, and we’re doing it, so I’m just curious what it’s been like for you. Well, I think I kind of started pretty much around the same time as you did, about September. So, but I had been writing my recipes for a while, just, you know, I kind of like dream them up.

25:16 So I’m lying in bed and I’ll think, oh, that could totally go together. And I, you know, literally I’ll put on the light. I’ll quickly write it down because it’ll never stay in my brain. I’ll put it in my iPhone or something and I’ll be it. But, you know, my husband was always after me.

25:28 It’s like, just do something with your cooking. You’re so good at it. Just do something. And you’re always like talking about it and it’s really boring. Just do something with it.

25:34 So I’m like, okay, fine, I’ll start a blog. Did little did I realize that it was another world together and the food blogging is huge and the people with book deals and you know it’s so overwhelming I can’t tell you like I look at people’s blogs and I feel so overwhelmed and I feel every time then I go back to my blog and I’m like oh god it’s so shit. So I’m sure you guys feel the same way and it’s just like oh my god I’m so far away I don’t think I can do it and then I just go off like for like a week I won’t be able to write because I get into this like you know I get a really a brain freeze like oh my god I can’t do this.

26:05 Do you notice how all those old expressions that, I mean when I was a kid I just completely disregarded them, but the older I get the more each one of them starts to make sense, and the one I was thinking of when you said that is the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, you know, it’s just one little step at a time. I mean I was on Twitter the other day and I was speaking on Twitter to a lady who’s been blogging for a couple of years now and she’s just come up with her book now And she, I asked, I said, you know, so overwhelming. What do I do?

26:38 She’s like, you just keep going. You just keep going. That’s all she said to me. And that’s all that, you know, she said to me, and she said, look, and blogging is not for everyone. Don’t be hard on yourself if you can’t do it, but just keep going.

26:48 Yeah, it’s a good lesson. I mean, our slogan is about the journey with this show. So it’s like, you know, we have aspirations, definitely. We want more viewers, definitely. But I mean, we are enjoying it at the same time.

27:01 I’m obsessed with viewership. I’m obsessed. You know, I mean, I look at my book and I’m like, please fricking comment, please people. And you know, people go and they won’t comment. You know, they’ll go on it, they’ll read it, or they’ll probably watch your show and they probably say, oh, okay, fine, nice.

27:16 I’m like, will you bloody just write something? Any comment, right? Anything just takes crap, but just do it. But you know, it’s readership you need to build. And I think that is, like you said, it’s the journey of getting there.

27:28 And you know, you’re gonna look back, like I’m sure one day I will too, And you’ll be like, Oh my God, I was really nervous about this. And now it doesn’t even matter cause people just watch me without, I mean, in fact, I’m sick of all these people commenting cause I don’t have time to read it. Um, if you were a kid, like let’s say you were 15 and you were worrying about like how you were going to be an adult, you know what I mean? It’s just, it’s a process process that will just unfold and happen no matter what. And then like when you’re a kid, you just want to grow up and all you think is someone will I grow up and I grow up. And then when you grow up, you’re like, Oh God, I wish I could be a kid again. So it’s funny.

27:59 Nick’s the very first episode we did here we shot it and filmed it and we lost it and it was like our first hour and it was a great hour of course we feel it every hour is great but we got to the end of it and like one half of it just didn’t save and we were like Karen our half for three hours I was there for you but it was just so devastating and now in retrospect it’s such a joke because it was just one episode way past that but like at the time it seemed insurmountable. Absolutely that’s what happens and I think soon you will be you’ll even lose count of how many episodes you’ve done. I had no idea it was 14 when you said that I was like shocked. Crazy huh? Yeah really crazy. Now um Sumayya you’ve got some crazy jailhouse tats going on and I just I wanted to know what what is going on with those and is that against your religion by the way?

28:45 Apparently it’s against a religion but definitely like a lot of people say you’re not because I think that the reason why it’s supposed to be against our religion is because it’s inflicting pain upon yourself right so that’s not supposed to be an Islamic thing to do. Okay. But I don’t actually find it painful so I say I tell people well I find it pleasurable so what are you gonna do about it? So it’s not about marking yourself or something? Not that I know of. I mean you know I’m sure people defer in my opinion but I don’t think it’s going to do that. Jewish people can’t mark themselves either. Is that for a slightly different reason? Okay. Why don’t you do that? Dude I just never I never appealed to me. Yeah I never understood that. You never never. You seem like a tat kind of dude. Yeah I know exactly. That’s what I thought the first time I I met him, I was like, where are your tats?

29:24 Yeah, I just never, I don’t know, never appealed to me. I mean, you got one or some, just two, okay. So what’s up with yours? Can we see some of them? Well, I mean, that is like.

29:34 Put it up to the. Yeah, that is just stars, like my daughter’s stars and mine. Can’t really hide that one, can you? No, and you know, I try initially at work and stuff in the house, I screw it, you know, I can’t be bothered. It’s me, it’s me, deal with it.

29:47 You know, I’m a lawyer with tattoos. See, that’s the name of the show, it’s me, deal with it. You know when you said it’s me deal with it like it was reminded me of them because I’ve got a tattoo on my arm as Well, and when I was getting it one of the things are one of my apprehensions was are like people will people might judge me Negative negatively based on the fact that I have a tattoo that’s in such a visible place And then I thought to myself, you know anyone who’d make a judgment on me based on something like that That’s a great little thing that just filters them out Yeah, absolutely.

30:16 That’s fantastic. They’re not worth it. Yeah. To me, it’s like, you know, a lot of people in my, I mean, a lot of girls in Pakistan do have tattoos now that go abroad and stuff, but it’s not something that’s quite common. And to me, I was always about tattoos that meant something to me that defined me and something I could live with for the rest of my life.

30:33 And I was very particular about that. I had my first tattoo up here, you can’t really get there now, but it’s like, it’s a barbed wire. It’s not a Pam Anderson barbed wire, it’s not that intense, but you know, it’s kind of like for me I had it done when I was 19 and it was sort of like you know I’m now grown up and I can do a tattoo kind of thing and it’s you know like sort of barbed wire meant a lot to me about you know being brought up in a country that’s quite you know caging in a way and yet it’s you know I was kind of free because I’ve you know come abroad and so it was it was quite a lot of meaning to me and I never and to this day I mean there’s been not even one day I’ve regretted that tattoo yeah it’s hard to do that because as you grow old you’re gonna change your values and you might regret it’s I don’t even know it’s It’s like I’m probably Nick you probably feel I don’t even know what my tattoos there you forget I I do I love my tattoos. Really? Yeah, that’s good. Every time I see him I get this little like So do I a little rush, you know, I do too. I did this girl in New York City one time I didn’t date her I saw her a couple times and I remember we went to her place and I was like What’s that on your arm? And she’s like a mistake Yeah, I don’t know what some crazy I love chicks with tattoos I mean, I had my name of pierced ages ago because I that was one piercing. I loved I used to have my nose pierced

31:40 Just wearing a ring but you know kind of doesn’t go with my profession so I took that off but you know my tattoos like those this one’s my daughter’s this one is my daughter’s date of birth and her time of birth in Arabic okay and then I have another big nautical star here because I actually grew up on the sea because my dad used to be in the Merchant Navy before so I grew up like seven years of my life on the sea so sea means everything to me I love the sea and I also sailed so I’ve got like these nautical flags going down just in my daughter’s year of birth and and then just at the back of my lower back I have a knot and it’s like the infinity knot you know it’s like nice figure of eight and then I have my daughter’s coordinates of a hospital right through it in coordinates so it’s kind of I made I designed all my patterns so the coordinates like in that was she born in London yeah wow that’s crazy you’re not like that person who walks into tattoo store and like finds a picture of a dolphin. I hate those. I’ve seen those. Look the tattoo has to be an extension of yourself and an extension of your personality and something that you can live with forever. You have to live with yourself as long as you’re alive so it’s got to be a part of you and I wouldn’t want to remove any of them.

32:47 That’s a good thing. Are you done? I don’t know. I guess that’s probably pointless question. I have nothing on my lower body really beyond my sort of hip bone and I’m thinking of like I ride horses and I really I I have this real passion for horses and I’ve always wanted to do something that’s slightly equestrian, but I haven’t actually thought of something yet, but I’m in the working, working on something, so maybe one more.

33:11 Keep us posted on that. Yeah, I will. So would you consider yourself an alpha female? Alpha female. We talk about this a lot of time on the show because like most men, I think Nick and I are constantly confused about women in general.

33:25 I think I’ve figured it out now. Really? Yeah, you think, in your dream, your alpha brain inspired dream but are you or what the hell does that expression mean anyways? Alpha female I don’t know really I mean alpha male I guess it’s now I think women are becoming a lot more dominant in society and want to wear the pants really and I think that’s where it’s coming from women just are exerting themselves. How do you feel about that? I think it’s cool because I’ve always been a very assertive woman and I think most of my relationships have had issues because I’ve always wanted to be the man in the relationship and I think it’s just because I’m a very confident and excessively self-centered human being and I think that it’s not easy for most Pakistani men because Eastern men are very traditional and they like their wives like under their thumb and they don’t really like them to speak out and I guess even though I all the most the men that I dated and you know I’d also got married before and they were always like quite modern ostensibly but really I don’t know if they really were and so there are a lot conflicts and I think you know everyone’s there’s always a good you know there’s always two sides of the story and I appreciating that I would say that a lot of the reasons why things may not have worked out in my life before was because I was just too assertive as a person and I needed someone to calm me

34:38 Down and then I’m also I put my back up like if someone tries to put me down I’ll actually fuck back more so we like don’t try to suppress my personality this This is me. She trained you jitsu. Yeah. I don’t know. But that’s changed.

34:51 But that’s changed. That has changed. Because you don’t seem like an egotistical person. No, but I’m not anymore. You see, this is what I was and I think I’m not egotistical, but I guess I was very overly confident about myself when I was younger and I always thought that I knew better.

35:03 But I think by meeting the right man, I’ve totally calmed down and he’s not even ever said anything to me because he’s so chilled out that he allows me to be myself. And yet I feel like, wait a minute, I’m being a bit of a bitch here. So maybe I should calm down. So I’ve kind of learned, I think you find the right person to be with, you kind of mellow down and that’s the right relationship for you because obviously each of you have to mellow each other down.

35:23 It’s nice. It probably wouldn’t have worked if he had been critical of you, right? You probably had to find your own way. Yeah, he’s always been very easy to deal with. So he’s a very chilled out guy, so he allows me to become naturally chilled out.

35:34 This just seems like such an opposite cultural thing when you describe what Pakistan’s like with the male-female relationship, you know, you seem like more like an American. Yeah, I don’t even know how I became. I think it might have been because I’m an only child and I grew up very sort of, you know, allowed to be what I wanted to be my parents very pushed me to be and I guess I was always the son and the daughter for them. So they allowed me to be that way. They could have been different. I’ve been, you know, I thankful to my parents for letting me be the human being I am. So maybe that’s why.

36:00 Wow. It’s pretty interesting, right? There’s enough for a whole series of podcasts. You don’t want to get into my head, I promise you. And what do you what do you think of you know other people that are kind of doing blogs out there are people that are putting media out. Do you think it’s it’s think do you think it’s hard to try to find get people’s attention these days because there’s so many things going on there’s so many programs to watch I mean our program is just under an hour and a lot of people say I don’t have an hour Brian in my week and part of me says you’re lame and then part of me says Okay, I kind of get it because that’s sort of bullshit. Did people watch an hour long TV show?

36:40 Priorities how many hours do people spend on Facebook each day just that their attention spans have become so short There’s a quick like bits and things like that But I mean, you know you said there’s a sea of food blogs out there There is and when I look at that see there are very few that catch your eye And I think the things that catch your eye are amazing photographs because we are very visual now I think a lot of us You know the thing is like that’s why I think something like what you guys are doing is really great because you’re visual you look at people’s faces, you get expressions, you get movement. So I think blogs are harder because people don’t have that much time to read anymore. So really, the people who go to blogs are people, A, who are looking for recipes, which is generally because they’re bored and they want to cook something fun, but they have to love food to do that because you can just slap something in the microwave from Mark’s dispensers or something.

37:22 So you really need to look for food. Now, there’s so many blogs out there that have really crappy photographs, but really good recipes. And I look at that and I’m like, wow, the recipe is fantastic, the picture is just not doing it justice. So I think what you need to find, at least with blogs, food blogs, is you have to find a happy medium. Really good recipes, but recipes that are snappy.

37:40 So it’s gotta be like, you know, boom, boom, boom, these little ingredients, this is how you do it. People don’t have time for stories. And a lot of blogs that I see have like a memo style thing that I did this, I did that, that. I mean, it’s all very interesting. There’s some that are amazing and those make great books.

37:55 But I think that, you know, you’ve gotta keep it snappy. Yeah, give a story, give a background, but it shouldn’t be more than like three, 400, maximum 300 words do you have a background on your site I do I have a little background on what I why I love food and who I am but then you know if you want to read it you read it don’t read it don’t read it I find most your recipes to be all about this is only gonna take 30 minutes so try it this is only gonna have six ingredients usually like trying eight minutes longer than I have to make a meal yeah actually her stuff I read it and I was like okay I think I can make this you know if I find my recipes you have to get the rest of the spices And once you have that spice covered, you can do it. And I mean, to me, like the main spices for curry, I would say as long as you have cinnamon, cumin, cardamom, you can pretty much whip up on.

38:39 And for like vegetable things, you should have like maybe just, again, cumin, you know, mustard seeds, pretty good. Ginger, garlic, that’s all you need. And onions for a curry. Yeah, I mean, then you can just basically add to it if you want. But if you have these things and you’re covered, you can pretty much whip something up.

38:56 And a food processor. And a food processor. And a little living cook. Yeah, I’m happy to come by and help you guys. Dude, I can make functional meals.

39:06 I can wake up in the morning and make myself an omelette, you know, like to get my protein in and keep my blood sugar stable. You know, I could make myself a piece of steak, but as soon as it starts getting complicated, I don’t know, dude, maybe it’s just another concentration or it’s that gestalt of food that I still haven’t quite gotten yet. Do you know what I mean? Like the timing and the just noticing the colors when it’s time to like stir stuff and yeah it just it’s hard to cook for yourself it’s hard to get excited about cooking for yourself i think because especially when you’re in this i got to get enough protein mindset and you can easily go down the street but i think if you’re cooking for someone else then the whole dynamic changes do you cook for your girlfriend i do yeah i cook i cook for lots of people you know i cook oh you’re good yeah i’m decent actually yeah my stepmother started me cooking when i was seven or eight and she was big into food and it sounds strange but It’s a big way, a way we communicated when I was growing up because we would make food together.

39:57 And on Christmas Eve, I made, I cooked lobsters, you know, like live lobsters and bulled them and it was like an event and it was fun. And you know, you can do it, you know, with kids or with adults and I mean, anybody might come over a few years ago from states and you know, I cooked like a steak dinner, you know, in my place. And it was just like, it’s just, it’s, it’s more social, isn’t it? It is social. And, you know, I, yeah, you’re right about cooking for yourself as a real boy and sometimes that I really don’t bother also.

40:22 But for me, food is fun, because I come home, I’m really tired after a long day, but I kind of struggle about thinking about cooking, but when I actually get down to it, it’s really relaxing, I really chill out, I do something creative. It’s like for me, it’s creativity. You lack creativity when you’re sitting in front of a computer all day and looking at documents and fixing stuff. It’s so true. So this is creativity.

40:42 You’re putting five ingredients together, and you’re actually making something you can eat. I mean, wow. And somebody can see, you can say, Okay. I made that. Yeah, I made this and it smells amazing. You know, so they say it’s very therapeutic even doing the Monday and things like slicing onions and I find it therapeutic. Some people said that’s the only way they can relax. I knew some guy in the city. And he said, the only way I can relax is by cooking because he just his mind was doing this thing for like an hour, which is, I mean, that is interesting. I can kind of understand it. But well, you know, I mean, look, like I have a three year old and I see her excitement when I’m cooking something or when she, when I’m baking a cake, she wants to do it. So there’s, there must be something about it that, you know, that roar.

41:18 As a human being when you’re a three-year-old, it actually appeals to them. That obviously means there’s something quite exciting about the whole experience. I’m going to make something that I can eat, you know, that’s what she probably thinks. And so I think that… It’s really big with kids.

41:30 It’s amazing with kids. I mean, it’s big. I mean, I mentored that 10-year-old kid about a year ago and one of our best days was we went to a cooking thing and we were making food together and then we ate it afterwards. It kind of sounds so simple, doesn’t it? It’s simple.

41:41 It’s things we’ve forgotten to do. My new thing is drawing. Really? Yeah. I get that from my class at dawn.

41:46 I mean, I’m crap at it. still learning but I think anything any task which you know that movie the last samurai with yeah Tom Cruise loved it don’t like him but love that movie is a cool film he was writing a letter like or his memoirs or something that he was gonna send back to the West and he was saying how he was describing the villages and it was a montage of like them doing their daily activities and he was saying something about how you know these people live their lives with such of simplicity in every single task, no matter how mundane it is, they’re totally dedicated and devoted to it. And I mean just with one woman washing clothes in the river and the other guys are practicing judo or whatever it was and another guy sharpening a sword and it’s just, I think in the modern world we don’t have that because there’s so much distraction, there’s so much happening all the time, you know, like just on the way here on the bus, I was sitting on the bus and I was playing on Facebook and downloading some music on Spotify and doing a note and what I have to do tomorrow and then like the bus stopped at the station and just looked up out the window and you know the Sun was faltering through the trees dude and I was like you know I’ve missed this whole bus ride because I was inside this computer abstraction you know I mean I think cooking probably is one of the ways to counter that you know I think so right just back to basics a

43:05 Little bit absolutely I mean how many times do you pick up an onion and choppy just have it ready you know in a plastic bag yeah they’re selling pre-chopped onions now I mean yes they don’t have to chop it yeah but I love chopping but you know like chopping them with my lovely knife that I have that you know did this knife skills do you have a global or a global stuff is that the way to go yeah well I don’t know I have I have the other one as well but I don’t know I like the globe because a lot lighter on the wrist and I kind of like it I need a cutting court means that was the course really important to hold your fingers yeah I liked it I think you know I’ve learned how to chop properly and I can do onions I can I can do like I can dissect a chicken in you know without cutting a bone and so it’s interesting yeah but it’s all about technique and once you lie you’ll be surprised that you actually don’t forget the techniques they’re quite simple and you know how to really cut an onion without it falling apart you know how it just like goes plop so you don’t cut that one little hairy side of the onion that keeps it together yeah it keeps it together slice it like and then you know it’s a small little trick and you know just how to like segment and orange the way that you get it in a fruit salad without the skin and you know stuff like that it’s really really really fun so simple but so much fun so you actually it’s actually

44:18 More exciting to cook like when you know what you’re doing so yeah and I haven’t chopped any fingers off now I used to always chop my nails off but now I don’t I’m getting more excited about cooking I’m I read Anthony Bourdain’s book and yeah no actually well that’s his show right but it was a kitchen Confidential. Kitchen Confidential. Yeah, yeah, Kitchen Confidential. I have read that. Did you ask me the other day what the next one was?

44:38 I think it’s called Raw Deal? Raw Something. No, no, I’ve read the first one. Kitchen Confidential. It was eight years ago, yeah.

44:43 The next one was Raw Something. But I started getting excited. Actually, I made an omelet the other day and I was like all excited and Bourdain was like the key for our kitchen and your kitchen is we use shallots in the kitchen, not onions. And he’s like, and we use butter. He’s like, that’s what we use.

44:55 And we use lots of it. So that’s why our food tastes better. And I was, I did both of those things and I made the kick ass omelet. Seriously? When are you going to cook for me, Ryan?

45:04 You got your first hug a couple of months ago. But butter is fabulous with eggs. I mean, it’s a match made in heaven. And I mean, it’s like when I make my omelette, one of the recipes on my blog is about Pakistani style omelette that has lots of like coriander and chili and stuff like that. That sounds good.

45:17 It is. It’s nice. It’s got garlic as well. Then you can put potatoes in it and you can put parmesan on it, whatever you want. But one of the main things that I do is cook it in ghee and he’s clarified butter.

45:28 So it’s like the richest taste of like a buttery flavor you can get doesn’t go with everything like it goes with some foods, but it really goes with eggs. And you buy that separately. Yeah. I mean, you can buy it. Yeah.

45:40 You can buy it in Sainsbury’s literally that that easy to get now, but a new tip. Yeah, it’s really good. I mean, you might want to try where it goes because it’s got such a pungent buttery smell that and it’s very, very, very buttery smell that doesn’t always it can overpower some food. So you’ve got to be careful with what you mix it with. What do you think of Heston Blumenthal?

45:58 I think he’s incredible. I think he’s very, he takes food to another level. He takes it to science, which is what food really is. I mean, really when you put even five things together, you’re creating something like an experiment. You do, it is a scientific experience to cook because when butter starts spluttering, you put something in it, starts sizzling.

46:15 That’s all very scientific. And I think he’s taken it to a different level. He’s taken it into domains that no one’s ever gone to before and I think he’s completely a genius. I like Washington. snail part seriously I don’t know about the snail part and I don’t know about you know weird foams and all of that but I I had his bacon and egg ice cream I went out to spray and it was awesome you know it was yeah he’s doing a show now on on BBC which it’s it’s him at home cooking so it doesn’t have all the fancy stuff although he does pull out some dry ice every now and then but um he showed how he does the bacon and egg and man it was pretty trippy when they did it in front how does he do the ice cream well it was like it was like 15 courses by way and it was like one of the last courses and they walked up to the table after we had like 12 courses and they said, good morning, Mr. Rose, would you like your breakfast? And I was like, okay, yes. And so they gave me like a bag that was like cereal and he brought out an egg that was from, it was like you’re baking an egg ice cream and I was with actually a client and he was actually Muslim so he couldn’t have any bacon so he had something else. And he took the egg which was actually had been hollowed out and pre-filled with this whole bacon and egg rich mixture And they cracked it and popped it in the pot as if it was an egg, but it wasn’t an egg.

47:24 Poured liquid nitrogen in, stirred it up, and made ice cream right there in front of me and served it on a little piece of toast with a little bit of bacon on the side. And it was awesome. He just messes with your mind because you can’t think about something savory and something sweet at the same time, but he just does it to mess with you. He actually tricks you most of the time. He gives you one thing and you think it’s something else.

47:44 No, I’ve yet to go to that restaurant, but I have to say that’s what I love about him. That restaurant where it might even be one of has some bloomin’ thoughts. It’s when you eat in the dark. Have you heard about this? Oh yeah, it’s also in France as well.

47:55 They’re blind waiters. There’s one in London though as well. Yeah, there’s one in London too. Quite a few of my friends have been there and they said the food is okay, but it’s the experience and it’s all like blind waiters. So that’s why it’s dark, cause they can’t see anyway.

48:06 So they come in and serve you food. And apparently it’s because they really want you to experience the flavors and experience the senses. Because when you’re, obviously when your eyes are closed, it’s like when you do blind tasting or something, you can really, really taste the wine You can really see the flavor. It’s the same thing and I think I haven’t done it yet And I it is one of the thing my my go-to things to do soon very soon Just for that experience. That sounds so weird. How do you see your food? You just kind of does it kind of I don’t know I think it’s all sort of done and you kind of just pick it. I don’t have no idea I mean people said it’s the whole experience. Yeah, it is a whole experience I mean a lot of people think like the great meals you’ve had in your life and it’s not just the food Isn’t it’s everything that’s going on beyond some of the company is a lot of it and just yeah how you’re feeling at that time and it’s a crazy mixture of things.

48:52 I mean speaking of like company I mean yesterday I was just telling you I’d gone to the supper club not the restaurant supper club but like supper clubs which in people’s houses and you go and have a meal and you don’t know any other people on the table and it was so interesting because I really wanted to experience what that was like and it was a Vietnamese cuisine and it was fabulous food but what was amazing was I was sitting with five different people I’d never met in my life didn’t know what experience didn’t know what to expect And just, you know, obviously got a bottle of wine, had some drinks, but it was just incredible to have conversation with people who never met. And I actually think I had, it was one of the nicest meals I’ve ever had. Because I think it was more just interesting people I met, and I found so many things in common with complete strangers.

49:31 And so, you know, it was the same thing about meeting people you’ve never met before that if you go to a restaurant, you never really talk to your neighbor. So you actually get to do that. And I guess you’re all doing something you kind of loved as well. I guess you’re experiencing something nice. You can talk about the food and exactly.

49:45 And we didn’t even talk about that. I mean, we talked about, this is really yummy and I’ve never like eaten. Okay, so I am quite a prude I think, but I’ve never really eaten frog’s legs before and I was always a bit anti-eating frog’s legs because I just thought they were very slimy and disgusting. But the way that they were served yesterday, yeah, it tasted like amazing chicken, like really succulent chicken and it was really good. I had like three, I was shocked.

50:06 You’re this fabulous food blogger and that’s all you can tell me is it tastes like chicken. Well, it tastes like chicken, but it has, so every single bite that I took of it, I thought of a frog going ribbit, ribbit. Okay, I did, I have to say, it was kind of on the back of my head while I was jumping on that and I was just like, okay, it’s not, it’s really delicious, really. And then I had more and more and I realized how much I really liked it. It was like chicken, but it was also a bit like fish.

50:30 So it was like, there was nothing fishy about the smell, but there was something slightly fishy about the texture. Though it felt like chicken, when I bit into it, it felt a little bit like, say, haddock or hake or something quite fleshy and white meaty. So it was interesting. Wow. You said earlier that you go back to Pakistan a lot.

50:48 And I was just wondering, is it safe? Is it not safe? I mean, I have an American passport. I don’t know if they would be welcoming me at a big party at the airport or not. I mean, it’s a lot.

50:59 I’m just curious. I mean, it’s hard to say it’s safe in some areas where you, you know, like when my parents are safe. But there’s always, there’s a lot of lawlessness now. And I think that’s what’s scary. And I grew up in a park sign that was very different.

51:11 It was like really safe and nice, fun. We used to do whatever the hell we wanted. And now it’s become quite restricted because we always get someone might kidnap you or shoot you or, but you know, general life goes on. I mean, my parents still live there and they’re getting on with life, but it’s not as safe as it used to be. And it’s sad because it’s, you know, stopped a lot of people going there.

51:31 And sadly that’s the way reality. But yeah, not- But you still go back? I go home once a year. but my parents come here more often, so, yeah, it’s not. Everyone in Pakistan hate the US?

51:43 No, actually people love the US, but I guess politically it’s not loved. Yeah, I can understand why. It’s crazy how like a regime or a government can be so misrepresentative of the people. Yeah. You know, it’s just, I find that interesting.

51:59 It’s interesting, I mean, I was thinking about when you come over today and like just the US and Pakistani relationships and everything going on over there and it’s like, if I ever get asked by someone in Pakistan or someone in Afghanistan, like what the hell are you guys doing in there? And I just say simply, this is just business. You know, we’re just business, I completely understand the Pakistani people because they know sooner or later the US will leave, will always leave sooner or later.

52:19 And they have to deal with what happens afterwards and let’s be honest, they’re next door neighbors with the Afghanis and they’re gonna have to have some working relationship in the future with the Taliban. And so I understand partly they’re like, okay, you want us to back you 100%, but when you leave and you will, because you have before, that’s why the Taliban were created after the US supported them against the Soviet Union. We have to pick up the pieces, so fuck you.

52:39 No, I’m just joking. But I mean, I understand how part of them are like, you know what, we don’t really wanna play your games right now, so. Well, it’s always been that, you know, I think Pakistanis just feel really let down by America, you know, they use us when you want, and then you leave us, and like you said, you know, and we just have to pick up the pieces. And the picking up the pieces are not just that, we have to deal with this whole lot of people, the Taliban, which obviously are huge, are pretty much infiltrated in Pakistan now, and they’ve reached like the south, I come from Karachi, and they’re all the way there now, And that’s what’s the unsafety element, because they’re coming in, they’re saying things like, you know, you are supposed to be a Muslim state, women should be covered, and all that kind of stuff.

53:13 And as a woman, I feel really strongly about that because I don’t really believe in the whole covering your head stuff. And, you know, so I’m like, don’t inflict anything. This is, we were all very, it’s a moderate Muslim country generally, but you have all these people. So, you know, that whole Taliban element is something that I guess a lot of people really resent, and we have to deal with all of it, and our governments have had to deal with it. And so, you know, and then America leaves when they want to, And I guess that’s a resentment that’s built up.

53:37 I understand that. Yeah, we’re just looking out for our interests globally. I know. Yeah, sure. If you lived in America, you might be the same.

53:42 But yeah, I completely understand both points of view. But it must be scary when people are coming in and telling you kind of what to do, especially with your hair. Yeah. You know, and that’s the best part. I chucked it all off, so it’s easier now.

53:52 That’s the best part of girls sometimes is their hair. They cover up their hair in a second. Yeah, I mean, exactly. It’s all gone. Well, I think that the whole covering of the head is a very cultural thing, more than a religious thing.

54:02 And you know, in our culture, and even the Hindus, I mean, a lot of them cover the hedges outside in the, because A, it covers you from the sun, it keeps you protected. It’s also because in our religion, it was all about covering your apparent beauty and keeping it away. And apparent beauty in the East is pretty much your hair because all the Eastern women have gorgeous hair. And I think that a lot of that came from the cultural point of view as well. I mean, not just religious, so.

54:25 Just understand why you’d wanna cover it though. I don’t know, I think just not to attract attention. That’s the whole idea is that if you attract attention, it’s basically the whole idea the restrictions on women in Islam really come from the fact it’s about protection of women and you’re talking about a country Saudi Arabia where Islam came was a country where there was you know a lot of debauchery and and there you know there was crazy stuff where the bedrooms were doing and Islam kind of tamed them and they tried to give women respect and women were not respected and women were given that respect by Islam I mean it you know gave rights to women and it allowed women to be individuals with rights which they were not given prior to Islam. Interesting.

55:01 Yeah, so that is where it comes, and then the protection of women was that, you know, if you keep yourself covered, you don’t, you know, men are bastards, they look at you sexually and, you know, they want to pounce on you, this way, you’re protecting yourself. You’re putting this veil between, between that attraction element, so you’re, you’re not sexually… And then you’re just forcing it into their mind, though. But it’s gone, it’s gone to a different level now.

55:19 Because now we have some more of a civility and we have a police state, and so maybe you don’t need to do that. Yeah, but you know, now it’s taken a different, different level, all of it, it’s become, they don’t think about where it comes from, it’s just become this imperative thing upon and you’re not allowed to really think and make your own judgment call, which is, I think, not fair.

55:36 It comes back to that, whatever you declare war on, you energize. If you repress female beauty and call sexual thought. Give me more of it. Yeah, of course, then it’s gonna go inwards and then you get perversion. Absolutely, and that is what’s sad thing, and in Pakistan, there’s a lot of perversion, simply because women are not, of course, Pakistan’s probably not the best example, but in Saudi Arabia, where there’s complete restriction on women to do harder and stuff like that.

56:01 I mean, you know, crazy things happen there in the society. You know, there’s homosexuality, there’s all sorts of stuff that, and not that there’s anything wrong with that. What I’m saying is it’s like homosexuality, except if you are gay, then fine, you’re comfortable with being gay. Whereas it’s similar to, as in a prison, where it’s pretty much just the only option. And it’s like they won’t even admit that they’re gay.

56:20 They’ll just screw little boys and they’ll say, oh, there’s nothing wrong with that. Right. You know, and so there’s no, and they don’t want to admit that they’re gay. So I’m just saying the things like that really because of oppression, oppression that does that to you, it makes it good up. I mean I just don’t know how you could function if you just walked around and you don’t see girls because they’re all kept at home and they can only go out with an escort or a male family member, it has to be a family member. Watching a film, in fact I’ve got a copy of it for you, it’s called The Devil’s Double, have you heard about it? No, I haven’t. It’s about Uday Hussein, Saddam Hussein’s one of his kids. Oh yeah, I’ve heard about this movie, yeah. And he had obviously a doppelganger dude in case he was assassinated or anything like that and what I’m reminded of is this one scene where Uday and his bodyguards are driving down the street and they see like they just see like a school girl and just bundle her into the car and he rapes her and I mean it’s do you know what I mean it’s some very dark stuff going on in regimes like that yeah and it’s like okay these things happen everywhere but it’s the perversion of it it’s the extreme to how it is thought of and how disgusting the whole thing is.

57:27 I mean, yeah, it really happens in so many countries. It doesn’t matter, but it’s just, I think it’s a thought behind it. Wow. Um, you know, as usual, the hour flies, so, uh, yeah. So, uh, I’m going to have to wrap this up, but if you want to just give us your website and your Twitter and anything else that people can find you.

57:43 Yeah, sure. My website is, um, www.pakapaki.com. And, and, and I didn’t say anything about the name. I’ll quickly just give us quickly. Quickly, paka means real and paki is obviously from Pakistani, a lot of people have this concept that it’s very derogatory but it really means pure and it’s a word I want to reappropriate back to my positive, you know, meaning of it and hopefully I’ll do that through the name.

58:06 Good, and you’re on Twitter as well. I’m at Twitter, it’s at paka paki. Okay. Alright, cool, we’ll flash that stuff. It’s so cool to meet you tomorrow.

58:12 Nice to meet you guys. Yeah, it was fun, thanks for coming in. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Being our first girl.

58:17 Oh, pleasure. It’s about the journey. It is. All right. Thanks, guys.

58:22 All right. Thanks. Bye.