Ece Temelkuran - Erdogan, Enough Is Enough

Full transcript: Ece Temelkuran on London Real

5:37 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Ejai Tamellkiran, the journalist, activist and author who has twice been named Turkey’s Most Red Political Columnist. You were infamously fired in 2012 by the Haberturk newspaper because of articles you wrote that were critical to the Turkish government and the massacre of dozens of Kurdish teenagers. You published 14 books, including the best-sellers Women Who Blow on Knots and Turkey, The Insane and the Melancholy, which have won numerous awards.

6:12 Ejai, welcome to London Real.

6:14 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

6:16 Brian Rose: It’s a pleasure having you here. What does London mean to you?

6:19 Ece Temelkuran: London? Smoking and freezing, unfortunately. Sometimes I do think that this city is designed by a grumpy old man who wants to discomfort you constantly. He just goes home. He tells me, go home.

6:36 Don’t linger here. But in a way, I like it because it activates my mind, like New York does, for instance. But all big cities come with a prize. They motivate you, they energize you, but they take away from you as well. And London is one of those cities, actually.

6:57 Brian Rose: Okay. And does it remind you of certain things in history or cultural things as well?

7:03 Ece Temelkuran: Well, it does, of course. British history and all the bad and good things about it. Of course it does.

7:11 Brian Rose: Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I mean, New York can be very energizing, but it can also be very draining as well.

7:19 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, but, you know, when I come… Actually, I understood London and New York when I’ve been to both of them, because in London, even though this is a cosmopolitan city, even though there are a lot of facilities for those who want to create and so on, when you go to New York, you understand why New York is there, because the city always tells you, you can do it.

7:43 Although it’s a big illusion, it tells you constantly the same sentence, you can do it. Whereas in London, it always says, well, probably you cannot do it, even if you are. Great. You know, there is this circle we have here. It’s not quite accessible to you.

8:00 Brian Rose: Interesting. Like, it’s a display of people that have done it, but it’s not encouraging you to do it too.

8:06 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, and then you understand the myth of you can do it for, you know, American dream. Once you see London, you know, maybe all those people just cross the ocean because of this, you know, feeling of, no, no, no, you cannot do it. Right. Right.

8:21 Brian Rose: I think you might have something there. And yet the message you get in New York City isn’t really true either.

8:26 Ece Temelkuran: Of course, it’s an illusion.

8:27 Brian Rose: It’s an illusion, but it is a distinct message, isn’t it?

8:30 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, but it’s a sweet illusion.

8:31 Brian Rose: Yeah. I think it comes down to, like, geopolitics and, like, geography. And for America, it was always, when it started off, if you go west, you have a chance at prosperity. There’s capital, there’s land, there’s this. And so if you want, you can.

8:44 And yet Britain, you know, after a certain period of time, maybe 1000 AD, you know, the land was spoken for, and you had to, the king was going to do this, and it wasn’t like you can have your dream. If you want to do that, you go over there. So I think you’re right. If you’re dreaming too much, here’s the ocean, sort of.

9:02 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, get out, right?

9:03 Brian Rose: Exactly. On that same note, what can you tell us about Turkey? Because I think so many people that, you know, will be watching this, they don’t know what Turkey really is. No. And, you know, I could give you an explanation of what America is that is probably completely different than a British person would think of, or you, or someone in Europe, or someone in Asia.

9:26 And because I’ve been there, and I know what these little messages are, like you just said, that are kind of unspoken, but they’re on the top. What are those messages in Turkey?

9:38 Ece Temelkuran: Well, it’s sad that now it looks like a crazy country run by a man, and, you know, unpredictable land of chaos and so on, but it wasn’t like that. And, you know, when it was first established, founded the republic, it was something like roaring against the current. And it was a revolutionary act to found a republic somewhere between Middle East and Western countries, and, you know, telling all the people that now we are going to look at the West and we’re going to be like them.

10:12 And we are going to even surpass them. That was the words of Ataturk, founder of Turkish Republic.

10:18 Brian Rose: Who everyone quotes when I’m in Istanbul.

10:21 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. It was Ataturk and Ataturk and Ataturk.

10:24 Yeah. And he changed the alphabet to do that. He changed everything and he, you know, he created a country sort of with his AIDS, let’s say, which is a westernized country, which is supposed to be a westernized country. And Turkey is like, you know, literally a bridge between West and East. So throughout history, it has been sucked by each side, like, you know, sucked by West, you know, pushed and pulled, let’s say.

10:57 And therefore, its identity is always something in between. And we were used to Turkish people, especially secular people. We were used to seeing ourselves as westernized, secular, you know, yeah, westernized and secular people. But then that ideology has been now replaced by this new, you know, perspective by the ruling party saying that, no, no, no, you’re not westerners. We are actually belonging to East.

11:30 So it was interesting. It’s an interesting topic because we always had this existential vacuum, so to speak. We always felt inferior to West and superior to East. And it was already like, it was already a problem in our psyche, in Turkish collective psyche. And I think Recep Tayyip Erdogan decided to cure this problem in our psyche by telling us that you don’t have to feel inferior to anyone.

12:05 Now we can feel superior to the others, to the East. So he cured a sort of sickness, let’s say, with another one. Now we are feeling superior to the East. So yeah, so actually the perception of that same map has changed in a way. We were looking, you know, when we were growing up in our elementary school, we had the same map.

12:32 Turkey was the biggest country and there was this, you know, western countries, all colorful cities, rivers and so on. Whereas, you know, USSR, then Iraq, Iran and Syria, they were all grayish-yellow. So it was as if this map that was the representative of the state ideology was telling us to look at West. You know, things are happening there. Whereas, like, this part of the map is like, you know, nobody lives there.

13:01 They’re not even cities. It’s just camels and dirty Arabs.

13:04 Brian Rose: You’ve seen the Australian map where they actually take the map of the world and they turn it upside down.

13:09 Ece Temelkuran: I didn’t know that.

13:10 Brian Rose: Australia is on top.

13:11 Ece Temelkuran: Oh my God, yes. That was something like that as well. So now they changed the map in a way. Now the West is like a little bit off the map and all these cities, we know their names now, especially Syrian cities because Turkish military operation is going on in Syria. So we learned the cities of this grayish-yellowish countries by time after AKP came to power.

13:38 And I think people start feeling more closer to those countries, culturally and psychologically. I’m not talking about the entire country, obviously. I’m talking about, you know, those who are supporting the government and this ideology of the government.

13:54 Brian Rose: Is this kind of like a newborn child that’s going through the growing pains and adolescence because this country is not even 100 years old, right?

14:04 Ece Temelkuran: Yes, but I think the metaphor would be too healthy for such a political situation.

14:09 I think it would be like a young man, in our case, crippled and transformed against his will.

14:16 Brian Rose: Okay, and I want to get in and talk about the current political situation. You know, I pulled up Turkey on Google Maps before we did this, and I saw the city you grew up in, and I want to ask about that city.

14:31 Ece Temelkuran: It’s really nice, actually.

14:33 Brian Rose: But again, people need to go take a look at this.

14:36 It’s massive. It again touches Europe, it touches the East, it touches Iraq and Syria and, you know, Greece or Bulgaria. And it’s on the Black Sea, it’s on the Mediterranean Sea. I mean, it’s just massive.

14:52 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly.

14:53 But such a geopolitical situation gives you a hard time, obviously, throughout your history. And Turkey had that same problem since its time in memorial, maybe. Not only the Turkish Republic, but Ottoman Empire had the same issues of identity and definition, self-description, and so on and so forth. So yeah, my hometown, for instance, there’s a lot of Greek influence and Izmir on the west coast of Turkey is known to be the most liberal city, actually. And Izmir, people living in Izmir would like to take pride in their city, telling that we are not, you know, those Anatolians we are.

15:39 Izmir people, which means like we are Westerners, we are liberal, progressive, and sort of, you know, Mediterranean craze going on, and so on. So even this perception of my hometown is embraced by the government. They call Izmir half infidel, referring to its Greek influence past. So yeah, Izmir has such a reputation, and it has a reputation with women, being more liberal, comparing to the other parts of the… No headscarves.

16:15 Brian Rose: No headscarves, laughing out loud.

16:18 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, it was like that. It was like that until recently, you know, it’s becoming more… Although I don’t want to, you know, categorize women with headscarves, without headscarves, but yeah, it’s becoming more conservative accordingly with the entire country’s situation, I think.

16:37 Brian Rose: Okay. And Ejde would not be here in this chair now if you hadn’t grown up in that town. Fair enough to say?

16:44 Ece Temelkuran: Hmm, yeah. It would be not completely, you know, descriptive, but yeah, that’s true. I think it gave me a sense of rebellion, and going, you know, against the current, and, you know, being… trying to depend on my own skills and so on, you know, whatever happens.

17:07 Brian Rose: And your mother always encouraged you to kind of do your thing.

17:13 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I had a typewriter, just like one of those.

17:17 Brian Rose: Oh, really? And so you used to write.

17:19 Ece Temelkuran: When I was 13, actually.

17:20 Brian Rose: Really. So you wrote from the beginning?

17:22 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, that’s why I cannot write on the computer like normal people. I do… Well, I was eight, actually. She wrote me a poetry notebook. It was written poetry notebook, so I thought, oh, okay, I’m supposed to write poetry now. I didn’t know that I was going to put the already existing poetry there.

17:40 So I started writing poetry when I was eight, and quite good poetry, actually.

17:45 Brian Rose: Oh, rebellious. Really?

17:47 Ece Temelkuran: So they say… and they say infidel because Greece and Turkey have long-time territorial disputes. No. Greek influence means Christian influence, whereas Anatolia is Muslim, so we are not properly Muslim, you know, when you look from the perspective of conservative Muslims.

18:04 Brian Rose: Okay. And your mom used to read you a story when you were a little girl that probably changed your life.

18:10 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, yeah. Yeah. This little blackfish thing. Yeah.

18:13 It was… well, it’s a story by Iranian writer Samed Behrenghi, and he was drawn in the river during the Shah regime. He was in opposition. So he wrote a children’s book called Little Blackfish, and this little blackfish is a… what? A knife, and then he wants to… or she, actually. I always imagine her.

18:41 She goes out to the big sea as opposed to the others, and she comes back with all these stories. You know, at least this was the version that my mother told me, and then years and years later I saw that that wasn’t real. And at the ending, nobody actually hears from blackfish again, little blackfish again. And probably I, you know, based my life on that first story I’ve been told. Like, you know, you go away, you bring stories, and everybody listens to you, and everybody likes your stories. I didn’t know that some would hate those stories.

19:20 So, yeah, and probably that naive intention of my mom changed my life. I really believe in the first books, whatever you read the first time, that gets into you and that sort of defines you in a way.

19:34 Brian Rose: And that happened when you were…

19:37 Ece Temelkuran: Sculpts you, you know.

19:39 Brian Rose: Sorry? And that happened when you were eight as well, or those early years?

19:44 Ece Temelkuran: Those were early years. I’ve been read that book, but when I was eight I was already writing. And, you know, then after years I understood that writing is not about the actual act. It is about seeing things and imagining things, seeing things in a different way. And then once you learn how to write, you start writing the things that you already thought so and so.

20:06 Brian Rose: So you’re a storyteller.

20:08 Ece Temelkuran: I am, I guess. I’m like, you know, people tend to differentiate between journalism and novel and poetry. I think in essence, every writing is poetry, and you’re diluted with reality, and you have novel. You put a little bit more reality, and then you get journalism.

20:26 But in essence, I’m a storyteller.

20:28 Brian Rose: And a poet.

20:29 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I’m like, it’s so embarrassing to say that. I don’t know why, but I cannot really own that. Although, yeah, I wrote poetry books, and one of them is in English, the Book of Edge.

20:41 It’s published in San Francisco some time ago. And yeah, I write poetry, but I don’t know why it’s so difficult to talk about poetry. Whereas, ask me about politics, and I can go on forever, or journalism.

20:57 Brian Rose: And what makes a good story?

21:00 Ece Temelkuran: I think it’s the will to tell, and will and need to tell.

21:04 And if you feel like you’re going to die, if you don’t tell that story, you tell a good story. Because your sort of life depends on it, or sanity depends on it. Therefore, you have to take it out, and that will and need, I guess, makes a good story and a good storyteller.

21:23 Brian Rose: Okay.

21:24 Ece Temelkuran: I guess so, yeah.

21:25 Brian Rose: How come you’re not a successful lawyer in NCAR right now?

21:29 Ece Temelkuran: Oh my God, that was a part of a plan, studying law. I never wanted to study law. But my father told me, who is a lawyer as well, surprisingly, he told me if you want to study outside of Israel, you have one option, it’s law. So it was so boring.

21:47 My God, I finished the school in four years, even though I studied journalism in my second year. That was how bored I was. But then it gives you a certain perspective of the world. Many people later, I noticed this, many people who studied politics or sociology, who ended up in journalism, they were getting lost in details, in specifics. Whereas those who studied law or economy, they were seeing the main fundamental of the system.

22:24 So it is more difficult for them to get lost in the chaos of things, of events and so on. And once you study law, you understand the main mechanism of state apparatus, politics and so on. So it is, yeah, it gives you a sense of a notion, let’s say. And I couldn’t be a lawyer because it needs a lot of patience and you shouldn’t be telling a story. Although I did this job once, symbolically for Kurdish kids who threw stones at police in the Arbokar.

23:06 And I was so lucky, there were real lawyers who worked for the case, so the kids were released. Therefore I was on the victory side, so I enjoyed that one day of being a lawyer.

23:20 Brian Rose: Why did you take that case?

23:23 Ece Temelkuran: I was already telling their story. At the time they became a social phenomenon.

23:29 It’s like kids aged between 6 and 15, 16, let’s say. They started a riot in the Arbokar in Kurdish town and they started throwing stones at police. And it became a big thing, a huge thing in fact. And then people wanted to know, not all of them, but some people wanted to know, including me, why this happened and how it happened. So I went there, I spoke to these kids and it’s horrible to see all these kids tortured, sometimes 6 years old and so on.

24:08 So after you see that, it’s not possible. And I do think that it’s not necessary to be balanced or objective. Neutral, not objective, neutral. Today journalism is, I think, a little bit crippled by this neutrality, which is called objectivity, but actually it’s neutrality. You don’t support sides, you don’t say your opinion, you don’t defend a side, which is nonsense.

24:36 I’m like, you know, we did, I did journalism and many of the journalists I admire, they did journalism to be the voice of the voiceless and to defend the weak against the power. So I was telling their story already and I saw no reason to retreat when it comes to defending them because they were considered to be adults and they were blamed of being terrorists, which was unfair to say the most naive word about it. It was unfair and what we do by storytelling or being a lawyer or being a journalist is, I guess, to talk about the unfair.

25:22 And it’s journalism, storytelling is this naive but consistent and formidable conviction that if we speak about unfair things can change.

25:38 Brian Rose: How old were you?

25:40 Ece Temelkuran: Too old.

25:41 Brian Rose: You were in your 20s.

25:44 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, then. Then I was 30 something, I guess.

25:49 Brian Rose: When you defended the case?

25:51 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah.

25:52 Brian Rose: You went to law school late?

25:54 Ece Temelkuran: No, I went to law school when I was 18. But years past I took a case.

26:00 Brian Rose: And who were the Kurds?

26:02 Ece Temelkuran: What do you mean?

26:04 Brian Rose: Well, you talk about the Kurds and some people don’t know who they are.

26:10 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, I see your point. Kurdish people is a minority, not legally, but the factor minority in Turkey.

26:18 And they’re living mostly in southeastern and south part of Turkey. And it’s an ethnicity, obviously. And since the beginning of the republic there has been a discussion, sometimes discussion, sometimes turmoil, sometimes dispute, and sometimes armed fight in between the Turkish state and the Kurds living in Turkey, in Turkish Republic. Until very recently it was a problem of Turkey, Turkish Republic, and it was a problem of human rights and democracy, betterment of democracy and equality, ethnic equality.

27:01 But then Syria happened. And now it’s Kurdish issue is not only a matter of Turkish politics, but also it’s a Middle Eastern issue now. They are present in Syria, in Iraq, and in Iran. So, you know, it’s a ethnicity problem, let’s say, a political issue, political matter that includes many countries in the Middle East.

27:31 Brian Rose: And you speak out for them oftentimes.

27:35 Ece Temelkuran: I didn’t speak out for Kurdish people.

27:38 Brian Rose: Yeah, it seems like that.

27:41 Ece Temelkuran: But I actually spoke not because they’re Kurdish, but because it was unfair for a Turkish state to treat them as less equals.

27:52 Brian Rose: And what was Ankara like?

27:54 Ece Temelkuran: Ankara is known to be the most boring city in Turkey, because it’s the symbol of state forced modernism that dates back to the beginning of the republic.

28:08 It is like Washington. Actually, you know, this difference between Washington and New York is very much applicable to Istanbul and Ankara. So Ankara is in the middle of Anatolia. And it’s not a very cute city. And since it is a young city, it doesn’t have the spectacular, magnificent historical monuments as Istanbul does.

28:38 But it’s a city of people. When you live in Ankara, I think this goes for Washington as well. And when you live in Ankara, you have to have friends. So Ankara is a place that brings people closer in a way. And they don’t have to act cool as they do in Istanbul or New York.

28:57 But, you know, first years for me, they were very, very difficult because I couldn’t find directions because there is no sea in Ankara. And when a person comes from a seaside, she cannot get her bearings right when there is no sea. And it was an interesting time. It was beginning of 1990s. USSR was collapsing. The world was changing.

29:24 So it was an interesting time for everybody, I think, who ended up in Ankara because it’s a very political city as well. Not only because it’s the home of the state, but also the universities. They have reputation of being progressive leftists and very, very political.

29:44 Brian Rose: So you skip the law and you start writing books.

29:48 Ece Temelkuran: Well, yeah, sort of.

29:49 In my second year in journalism, which is 1994, I think I started writing a book, which was published in 1996. Women are all confused. It was poetry and prose together. And now it’s a theater play in Turkey.

30:04 Brian Rose: Are you happy with the play?

30:06 Ece Temelkuran: Totally. It’s amazing. It’s magical to see your words turning into people.

30:12 Brian Rose: Not many authors get to see that happen, do they?

30:15 Ece Temelkuran: I don’t know, but they’re so lucky.

30:18 And now I want to see the other things, other books of mine on stage or on film. It’s so amazing. They always tell that it’s sort of a disappointment for the writer. I think I’m not that narcissistic enough. I find joy in the fact that people find my writing precious enough to work on it and to do something with it.

30:42 Brian Rose: What’s that book about?

30:44 Ece Temelkuran: It’s about growing up. Actually, it’s a triology. The first one is women are all confused and the second one is called The Book of the Inside. And the third one is called The Book of the Edge, which is in English as well.

30:58 So it’s about basically growing up, me coming from Izmir to Ankara and then to Istanbul. And I think by the end of the third book, I felt I grew up enough not to write poetry anymore. So I didn’t write poetry or publish poetry anymore after that.

31:15 Brian Rose: And what do we learn about a woman’s journey? Do we learn about the country? What do we learn about?

31:22 Ece Temelkuran: I think it’s too personal to learn about the country, although there are bits concerning that topic. I think growing up for a woman and keeping the sanity. When I look at that poetry books now, I think it’s mostly about keeping going on, even though you are not thanked or recognized enough. That’s the worst part of it. I’m not working too much or being on, you know, failing or I don’t know.

31:56 All those things are not that important, but being not recognized enough and struggling against that reality is the most… Oh God, it’s so exhausting.

32:07 Brian Rose: What’s it like being a writer?

32:09 Ece Temelkuran: Well, it’s less romantic that people might like to think because it’s all about working and you are the most boring person ever. I am the most boring person I’ve ever known because it’s all about…

32:24 Brian Rose: Nobody believes you, you say that. Even I don’t believe you.

32:29 Ece Temelkuran: No, seriously, I’m very, very boring. My boyfriend always says that. Anyway, so I think it’s… I’m very sorry.

32:39 I think it’s about… It gives you the liberty to be anybody or nobody. It’s amazing. Although I have to pretend, you know, putting on my jacket and being somebody. Although, you know, the writing itself in its essence gives you the freedom and the ability, in fact, to be nobody.

33:06 Like Emily Dickinson’s poetry in that poem. So I love that part.

33:13 Brian Rose: And you prefer fiction.

33:16 Ece Temelkuran: Yes. No.

33:17 Brian Rose: Can you explain?

33:18 Ece Temelkuran: Well, the things… When the things that I write about are too audacious, fiction is a better way to go.

33:26 Brian Rose: Why is that?

33:27 Ece Temelkuran: Because, you know, I come from a country and from a region where reality is too crazy.

33:34 You cannot even… The best fiction cannot even beat that craziness.

33:39 Brian Rose: Explain that.

33:40 Ece Temelkuran: Okay, I will. My personal… Well, I voted in Beirut. I lived in Beirut for a year to write that book.

33:47 Banana Sounds. Although the title sounds very, you know, funny. It’s actually a tragic book. So I went to Beirut and the first idea, the original idea was to write a book about Hezbollah. But then this Hezbollah guy made me wait forever.

34:05 And then for some reason it occurred to me that I can write a novel just because I know the answers to many questions that I’m supposed to ask as a journalist. So I scribbled down something and then I enjoyed it so much. So I wrote this novel. I started writing a novel but I think it’s because of being a journalist you somehow respect reality. Therefore I went to a newspaper, Daily Star, the only English newspaper published in Beirut.

34:36 Brian Rose: What year was this?

34:38 Ece Temelkuran: Two thousand… eight.

34:40 Brian Rose: Okay.

34:40 Ece Temelkuran: No, seven. Seven. I was there as a journalist in 2006 right after the bombardment, you know, Israeli bombardment in Beirut.

34:51 So yeah. So I went to the newspaper. I went through all the newspapers, all the copies of the newspapers, issues of the newspapers, starting from 1960s until 2006. And everything. I read everything, little advertisements and so on.

35:11 And for some reason I saw this advertisement. It is 1980s. It’s the height of the war. Everything is happening. Everybody is killing everybody.

35:23 And in Hamra, in the middle of that war, in this Hamra district, a dog is lost. So the owner gives this advertisement. I lost a dog. He’s called El Fart. And this is my number if you see him.

35:38 And a few days later there’s the same advertisement, only with a different detail now. I lost my dog. It’s a wolf something. And his name is Fart. He answers to his name.

35:48 Please call me if you find it. This is like seriously everybody is killing everyone. And this poor guy is looking for this dog. And the third time, a few days later, the same advertisement. I love this.

36:00 I lost my dog. It’s a wolf something something. His name is Fart. He answers to his name. And his one ear is down. How can you write this?

36:11 How can you imagine a person looking for a dog in the middle of the war and giving this description to a newspaper one ear down? So part of the craziness is this, of course. There are thousands of examples I can give like this. That’s why I’m like, when you ask, do you like writing fiction? Yes, I like writing fiction, but my fiction is mostly nonfiction.

36:38 And I always tell this, both in banana sounds or women who blow on knots, which I wrote in Tunisia. I lived there for another year. The most crazy, unbelievable things are real stuff. The more convincing and reasonable things that’s my fiction. You know, fiction part of the book. So yeah, I like fiction, but not completely.

37:05 And I like to play that game, you know, find out which part is fiction, to tell the reader that, to ask that question, which makes a lot of sense, especially in today’s world, because most of the things that we are going through, it’s like crazy fiction at the moment.

37:27 Brian Rose: Is it essential for you to go to another city to write a book?

37:32 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I think so. I think so, because I always thought that home is a violent place. Always people tend to think that it’s the symbol of security and peace.

37:45 But I do tend to think otherwise, when you are settled down, you have to protect yourself. Whereas on the road, you’re nobody. You can do whatever you like and you don’t have to be somebody. And road is a place where you have to be in peace with other people because you need their help and they need your help. Whereas home, everybody, you know, builds their castle.

38:11 Everybody, you know, defends their space. So yeah, I think road is a place where I can think and be at peace.

38:21 Brian Rose: That actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you. What was Beirut like?

38:28 Ece Temelkuran: Beirut? Oh God.

38:29 Anybody who goes to Beirut or stays in Beirut, they have this love and hate relationship with the city, which I have to. Beirut gives you this illusion. Once you start living in Beirut, you don’t have to do anything. Things happen to you. So I think this goes for any other Middle Eastern country.

38:54 They give you the illusion, especially Beirut, though. They give you the illusion that you’re doing a lot of things. Whereas it’s just nothing you do. But everything is happening around you. So you feel like you’re part of it. So you’re having this, you know, exciting life.

39:10 And I always, you know, love to watch the old man at Costa Cafe on Hamra street talking about politics. I mean, go there today. You’ll find these men, you know, coming as if they’re going to their office with their Asafir or Hayat, the newspapers, and sitting there discussing politics as if they’re paid for it. Like, you know, all their heart. And so it’s so interesting to watch that. And politics is a sexy thing to me.

39:40 Brian Rose: So Beirut is a sexy city.

39:42 Ece Temelkuran: It was. I mean, not now. I don’t feel it right now, but for years it was like that.

39:47 Brian Rose: I went there for about four or five days and I convinced an American friend.

39:51 Ece Temelkuran: It took me a year to convince him and he finally came.

39:54 Brian Rose: And we had a great time. It was wild.

39:55 Ece Temelkuran: It is wild.

39:56 Brian Rose: But there was things you would never expect.

39:58 And you had, you know, the beauty of Paris in some ways. And then just, you know, rubble. And then Mercedes-Benz taxis with no springs in the back seats. And it’s always nice to know that you’re in a place where everybody thinks that everybody else is a spy. So it’s funny. It’s a funny place in some way.

40:23 Ece Temelkuran: But of course, for those who are supposed to live there, who are supposed to have visas to get out of that town, it’s not easy. It’s claustrophobic, of course.

40:35 Brian Rose: As a writer who had been successfully writing books, why go back to journalism? Or why go into full-time journalism?

40:44 Ece Temelkuran: I don’t think I’m doing proper journalism. I’m telling stories.

40:49 But, you know, Turkey, the insane melancholy was… Oh yeah, I use my experience as a journalist and a columnist, a political commentator, whatever you call it. But actually it was very much storytelling because I want… That book is not in Turkish, for instance. It’s in several other languages.

41:09 But not in Turkish because I wanted to tell the foreigners about Turkey, and I wanted to tell it in a way as if they’re friends. And I’m telling you the real stuff now. There’s no going around the bush or anything. Here’s a real story. So it was as if telling a foreign friend about my country.

41:33 So it is the story of my country and, you know, of course it is nonfiction, but it’s not necessarily journalistic work, I would say.

41:43 Brian Rose: When you look back on the incident I mentioned in 2012 and the beginning, how do you look at it now? Do you look at it as something you would do again? Do you look at it as something that still is not understood? The articles, everyone.

42:00 Ece Temelkuran: That got me fired.

42:01 Brian Rose: Can you talk about those and what they were like?

42:05 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, sure. The thing is, I keep saying this because it’s true. When I was writing those two articles I knew that something would happen. Either they’re not going to publish the article or they’re going to fire me.

42:20 But the thing is, when I’m writing I forget that I’m afraid or I don’t think about the consequences. And it’s not a thing that I take pride in, by the way. That’s sometimes crazy. Anyway, it’s not rational. So I wrote the articles.

42:36 Brian Rose: Because you’re a true storyteller, right? Because the story must come out.

42:41 Ece Temelkuran: I forget what I have to fear once I start telling the story. That’s true. And, yeah, I wrote the articles, I sent the article to the newspaper and I go, what can I do? Of course it was too late.

42:53 Brian Rose: Where are you at the time?

42:55 Ece Temelkuran: Haber Tuk. For years I worked for Milleit as a columnist, but for the last two years that I was a practicing journalist, I was working for Haber Tuk.

43:05 Brian Rose: In Istanbul?

43:05 Ece Temelkuran: Istanbul.

43:06 Brian Rose: Okay.

43:06 Ece Temelkuran: I had a great office that was looking at Bosphorus. I lost that one.

43:12 Brian Rose: I can tell how great it was just by looking in your eyes.

43:17 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. Would I do it again? Yes, I would.

43:20 I’m like, because it was a… It still is. It is a time that people like me are not wanted in that country anymore. I’m like, so… And not as a journalist, not as a citizen sometimes.

43:37 So if it didn’t happen then, it would have happened some time, you know, some other time. So, yeah, I would have done it.

43:46 Brian Rose: And what was the article about and why did it upset people?

43:50 Ece Temelkuran: It was about this massacre, accidental massacre, so to speak, on the Iraqi-Turkish border that killed more than a dozen of kids because the army thought that they were terrorists passing from the border, whereas they were cigarette smugglers and they were smuggling cigarettes from Iraq to Turkey.

44:12 And the most annoying thing was the entire mainstream media was silent about this because they waited Mr. Erdogan to speak about the issue before they went on print. So that was horrible. Anyway, I don’t have to emphasize how horrible it is. It’s obvious.

44:30 Brian Rose: And that had been happening for years.

44:33 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, for several other issues it was. Okay. So I wrote this article with the title, Sir, yes sir. And then, yeah, another article following that up.

44:45 And of course, you know, I received this call for, that lasted, I think, 15 seconds or less, saying that, you know, why? And I said, yeah, I know why. So thank you. Thank you. And that was it.

44:57 Brian Rose: Like 20 years of your work gone.

44:59 Ece Temelkuran: Because when you’re at the time and still is like that, when you’re fired from journalism for political reasons, that’s the end of the story. You’re stigmatized. Like, you know, you cannot get a job anywhere else. But they printed the article. I don’t know why they did that. I think they needed this legitimization.

45:19 Brian Rose: To get rid of you.

45:21 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah.

45:21 Brian Rose: And would that have happened five years earlier? Or was it a certain time where, in 2012?

45:30 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I mean, I think many countries will experience the same thing, similar things as we did in Turkey.

45:40 The taboos, or not the taboos, like, you know, the do not touch issues, changes constantly when a single man is the ruler. He decides on that given day what is not, you know, legitimate to talk about or not. So at the time it was, you know, Kurdish issue was a no-no situation. But one year before that, or one year after that, they say, all the journalists were free to talk about Kurds. And, you know, it was funny because, you know, this is changing on a daily basis.

46:17 That was why actually all that mainstream media waited for Mr. Erdogan to speak about this accidental massacre. Because they didn’t know if they were supposed to or not. So, yeah, like when a single man is a ruler of the country, it depends on his temper on a given day. But not to speak about or what to write about.

46:41 And at the time it wasn’t a good idea, not the smartest move.

46:45 Brian Rose: And you got some backlash on social media for that, didn’t you?

46:50 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, a bit time. But, you know, it was when 2012, this online harassment wasn’t a thing yet. And, you know, when you experience it for the first time, you think that all these people are real, you know, government trolls and everything.

47:07 And you really think that everybody hates you, which is horrifying. Horrifying isn’t emotionally horrifying because it’s a long story, this online harassment. But the worst part is the government trolls are, you know, there’s no lowest point for them. They can go deeper and deeper. Whereas your friends or the ones who want to support you, they have a limit, moral limit.

47:39 So you act, you become paralyzed by the ruthlessness and limitlessness of these people’s acts on social media. So it is like a helpless situation. And it feels like you’re a real person, you have your face, you have your name. They don’t have those things. And you constantly feel like you’re attacking the ghosts with a sword.

48:09 So it’s an unfair fight. It’s an asymmetric war, sort of. So it’s not easy, especially for a woman, because it’s easier to target women.

48:22 For a woman, it’s emotionally one of the hardest things, I think, to go through that. I don’t want to do the victim thing because I hate it. And everybody, several people have been through this. But at the time, nobody knew that there was something called social online harassment or like, you know, discrediting people. And the most, you know, let’s say, depressing thing for me was I decided to do journalism about this.

48:51 That was my only tool to respond to this massive, ridiculing, discrediting. And I went back to, you know, Cold War, how the opposing people, opposing intellectuals, public figures were discredited. When I spoke about this, it became even worse because then it goes to, oh, you take yourself that seriously, huh? You know, this doesn’t have an end. So it’s horrifying.

49:23 Mocking is the most merciless weapon. Mocking, discrediting, ridiculing, and so on.

49:31 Brian Rose: And yet you also felt some weird sympathy for these people.

49:37 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I’m writing about them at the moment. In this new book, current book, I’m writing How to Lose a Country, The New Ice Age of Politics. I’m writing about them. I’m trying to understand their moral code. And how their, not only morals, but how their perspective of the world and everything else is shaped throughout the years.

50:03 I think it’s not their personal choice. But a certain type of human is manufactured throughout the recent decades, I think. And they are capable of doing really merciless things, ruthless, actually.

50:17 Brian Rose: Were these real people or were they government trolls?

50:21 Ece Temelkuran: Of course they were real people.

50:23 Brian Rose: Were they paid government trolls?

50:25 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. I mean, this is a business.

50:26 Brian Rose: Right. So they weren’t real people, or they were.

50:29 Ece Temelkuran: They were real people, but I don’t know how real they feel. Because once you start doing this job, probably they feel like this is only a job, like any other job, actually. And this responsibility in neoliberal system is a very, very tricky thing. So they don’t feel the responsibility, or they don’t probably own it morally. They just do the job because they’re getting paid for it.

50:56 Brian Rose: Yeah. These government.

50:57 Ece Temelkuran: Like, you know, weapon manufacturers or whatever. It’s a psychological operation weapon.

51:03 Brian Rose: Yeah.

51:03 And it’s real. And it’s funny, I recently had a guest on who claims to be the number one enemy of Vladimir Putin. And Putin wants him dead. And he’s probably right. He’s right up there.

51:12 And we released his stuff on YouTube. And it was as if I had said something about Mother Teresa. The trolls came in, and it’s this government control squad, probably in St. Petersburg, that just attacked. And I’ve never seen so many people supporting Putin on anything.

51:28 And it was just so obvious because we know YouTube very well. And so now these armies are mobilized, and they can maybe change elections. And funny enough, we just had Thomas Friedman from The New York Times say some horrible things about President Trump. And I’m sure Trump learned from the Russians that you need to have your own trolls. I’m thinking about getting some trolls. But now you can just see.

51:49 And it makes you really question anything that you read online. Because we used to think they’re humans, especially with you back in 2012 before this was a thing. You really believe they’re humans. Yeah.

52:03 Ece Temelkuran: And they are probably humans, but I didn’t know that they are acting as an army under command.

52:09 So when you say that, you’re attacked even worse because you are sort of deciphering the situation. And now I don’t even care. Sometimes it makes a comeback. And I don’t even care. And the only thing I do is like block it.

52:31 But then, oh my God, it got into me so bad. And then you start questioning yourself. And like any other person who has been subjected to violence, you start blaming yourself. You become embarrassed. And, oh, oh, only writing that book, no, women who blow and not save me.

52:48 Otherwise, oh, I was going crazy in Tunis. Because at the time, also, I’m alone in Tunis. And this is after the elections in Tunis. And radicalist feminists are surrounding the district that I live in. Torsches in their hand shouting Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, threatening to burn down the entire district.

53:10 There is curfew. Thousands of people are ridiculing me in Turkey. I drank a lot of wine and created these insane women to get myself out of that situation.

53:22 Brian Rose: And they helped heal you.

53:24 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, big time. Big time.

53:26 Brian Rose: You really know how to pick your vacation spots.

53:29 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, that’s me. That’s why nobody hangs out with me. Actually, I’m always alone in these places.

53:34 Brian Rose: And that’s how you produce a book in a year from those places.

53:38 Ece Temelkuran: I think there’s a sense of I need to suffer. There’s a very good… I wish I was a Christian in that sense. Like, with this amount of feeling of guilt, I could be pulp, even.

53:52 Brian Rose: You kept referring to this man. Let’s talk about this man. Who is he?

53:58 If you really had to just take it back, even to 20 and 30 years ago, who is he? How did he become who he is today? Did we all create him? Did Turkey create him? Or how does that happen?

54:13 Ece Temelkuran: It’s not only about him. If I look at myself, I would position myself in history. And I could see myself from outside as a product of a social project, a political project, which is like secular Turkey, leftist family. And I am the product of secular Turkish Republic. As he is the product of the opposition to this idea.

54:51 But especially after Trump, this has become global. Talking about the man, as if talking about the man explains everything. Or swearing at the man, mocking the man, is good enough. I think Mr Erdogan, the president, is not only a man, but he symbolizes many other things. And he’s a big, giant network like Putin.

55:24 And the historical situation of Turkey allowed him to create such an economic, financial and political network in order to rise to the power as a single person. And this has reasons that goes back to 1980, military coup, where the progressives of an entire generation was rooted out. Either tortured, killed, exiled and so on. So when Erdogan came into politics, when he was becoming an adult, Turkey was intellectually barren. And it was run by a right-wing party that was approved by the military coup.

56:09 So this is the country that he grew up in, he started politics in an Islamic party. And then he saw the historic twist, I think. And he was very lucky. And I’m not the only one who says this. I’m like, his Malaysian peer who was home prisoned. I interviewed him in Kuala Lumpur.

56:31 They were good friends at the time. And he said he’s very lucky. I wasn’t that lucky. That’s why I’m in prison in my house. So he was lucky. 9-11 happened.

56:41 So the Western world was looking for a leader, proper enough, friendly with the free market economy, looking somehow secular, friendly to secularism, and who is charismatic, and also who is moderately Muslim conservative, who is conservative enough to be role model for the other Middle Eastern and North African countries. So he was picked. And he was amazed. He’s a political animal. I’m like, he’s amazing.

57:19 And everybody would say that. He’s amazing in politics and speeches. So several things came together. And there was this economic network, which was created by the Fethullah-Qulam moment in Anatolia. And a new bourgeoisie emerged from that network, which supported Mr. Erdogan.

57:40 So all the chips fell in the right place. So yeah, that’s why Erdogan was born, or where he was born from. It was a political and economical historical process. That’s why it’s not, you know, when you talk about the man himself, Trump, or Mr. Erdogan, or Putin, it doesn’t make sense. You cannot go further to, you know, to go far enough to understand the situation.

58:08 It’s not about them. It’s about something else. And that security net, the financial and political security net they created, it’s impossible to break.

58:20 Brian Rose: And talk about that. I mean, politics, as you, I think, said to me on one of the pre-interview pieces, is about power and money.

58:30 And it took you a while to learn that.

58:33 Ece Temelkuran: It is.

58:33 Brian Rose: Can you explain that?

58:34 Ece Temelkuran: Follow the money. Follow the money and follow the power. I mean, who is handing over power to the other, who’s, you know, how power changes hand and money as well.

58:45 Well, I’m like, it was 19, beginning of 90s, 1990s, I think. I was in central Anatolia, the most conservative part of Turkey. And I was interviewing small-time businessmen, medium-sized businessmen. And I saw something new in Anatolia. All these men were motivated to do international business, one.

59:13 And second, all these amazingly luxurious, ostentatiously luxurious offices had these praying rugs. The picture was always the same. There was a library with Anna Bretonika, Askapelias. And at the top of the library, there was the praying rug. And that praying rug was the cheapest one.

59:40 It was interesting. So I asked one of the businessmen, and he said, if that praying rug is not there, nobody would do business with us. And this was all around Anatolia. So it was, you know, it was back in 1990s, this conservative new business network was formed, Islamic-oriented conservative. So they were the ones who carried Mr. Erdogan to power.

1:00:12 Brian Rose: And what’s happened in the last five years since you were fired, as far as the power of Erdogan, and what happened post-Cou last year?

1:00:22 Ece Temelkuran: Post-Cou, yeah. I think that’s the most depressing time. You know, one thing is that a coup is happening in a country in the 21st century that’s already horrible and terrifying. And basically a Western country.

1:00:38 Brian Rose: Thank you for saying that. Many people would be thankful for you to say that. But it’s not like a coup happening in Zimbabwe. I mean, this is a major, huge, massive economy.

1:00:50 Ece Temelkuran: Well, I mean, yeah. So after the coup, people were desperate, I think.

1:00:55 Brian Rose: What was the coup? Do we even know what it was?

1:01:00 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, actually, well, it’s not easy to talk about the coup because, you know, we don’t have access to information anymore like we did, I don’t know, 20 years ago. And so, you know, there was a coup attempt. It was a real coup attempt. Everybody, you know, some people like to think that it’s a stage thing. I do not think that. It was a real coup attempt. But yeah, there’s some, you know, specifics which make it interesting.

1:01:33 But after the coup, what happened after the coup is more important because Mr. Erdogan is a politician, is an amazing politician. He wants to turn crisis into opportunities. And the coup being the biggest crisis became the biggest opportunity for him to legitimize his political oppression through unending curfews. So yeah, Turkey is another country now. I think it was around that time people started talking about, you know, moving to coastal towns, leading a secluded life or going away to another country and so on. So yeah, it was a shock. I was in Istanbul and literally it was a night from a war.

1:02:27 So, you know, I’m a journalist. I know what war is. But once you have those big pockets and, you know, all those safari-like outfits, it’s easy to bear because you have your armor and shield. But once you’re at home with your pajamas, things start happening, it’s something else. And you really get terrified.

1:02:49 So I think many people were shocked that night, especially in Istanbul and in Ankara.

1:02:56 Brian Rose: And now how has that played out?

1:02:59 Ece Temelkuran: He’s stronger. Definitely. Stronger and he doesn’t have an opponent now, except for the ones who are obviously inadequate. So I think it’s…

1:03:11 Brian Rose: And now, you know, yesterday it was in New York Times.

1:03:15 He’s giving speeches three times a day.

1:03:18 Ece Temelkuran: I don’t know why New York Times made it into this piece to its front page because that was already the situation for some time.

1:03:26 Brian Rose: I just recently heard about that. I didn’t realize that. It’s part of his masterful politician.

1:03:32 Ece Temelkuran: No, it is about the populist, right-wing populist leaders, I think, not only about Erdogan. They keep the state apparatus in constant election atmosphere because it energizes their supporters. It mobilizes the party members and so on. Trump does this and Putin does this too.

1:03:48 Brian Rose: Exactly. So everything feels like it’s an election. So they’re front and center all the time.

1:03:54 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. Because an election always gives hopes. Not only to opposition, but also to the supporting base. Because the cards will reshuffle and maybe you’re going to be the winner of my great new… My good grace is this time, you know, this is told by the leader, of course, because the power is distributed differently after every election. So everybody becomes more motivated.

1:04:24 So yeah, it’s an ongoing election since 2002, sort of. Turkey has been living in this atmosphere.

1:04:32 Brian Rose: So it is constant instability. How much longer will he be in power?

1:04:37 Ece Temelkuran: I think as long as he lives. Sometimes I think this, but then pessimism is not a good thing. I have a moral duty not to be pessimist. But sometimes I do think that, you know, looking at the…

1:04:53 Seeing the political sphere in Turkey and noticing that there is no adequate opponent who would challenge him. Sometimes I think that maybe he’s not going away anytime soon.

1:05:08 Brian Rose: What does he think of you?

1:05:10 Ece Temelkuran: I don’t think he does think of me. He didn’t mention my name, thank God, because there are colleagues that he mentioned by the name.

1:05:21 Brian Rose: What happened?

1:05:22 Ece Temelkuran: I think I’m less important now, which is good. I can live with that.

1:05:28 Brian Rose: If you’re not a journalist.

1:05:31 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I think so. And also, yeah, writing novels makes you somehow not that important anymore.

1:05:39 Brian Rose: Even though that could make you more dangerous. But maybe not in the Twitter verse.

1:05:45 Ece Temelkuran: Well, they have to read these 500 pages to hate me. It’s not easy.

1:05:50 Brian Rose: Yeah, 140 characters.

1:05:51 Ece Temelkuran: So, yeah. This is an awkward situation. When you’re coming from such a country and living in Western speaking or living in Western countries, you always have to fulfill this suffering intellectual oppressor. I think I’m not doing this. I am the voice of opposition in Turkey. I find it rather… I don’t know. It’s not for me.

1:06:26 Brian Rose: Were you ever that person?

1:06:28 Ece Temelkuran: A little while? Unintentionally, yes. I think especially during Gizi Uprising, I was one of those voices during summer of 2013. And sometime after that as well. Unintentionally, yes.

1:06:45 Because I was telling stories, actually. That’s what I did. Stories became powerful.

1:06:52 Brian Rose: I think you said on hard talk, though, that just being the person that constantly protests and says no, no, no, no, no, no, it becomes ineffective.

1:07:03 Ece Temelkuran: No, it makes your thinking primitive. Because as the oppression… Your response to oppression becomes accordingly primitive as the oppression is going more and more primitive.

1:07:17 You become your enemy. You’re becoming a big no. That is not only tiring, but also intellectually diminishing. I have better stories to tell than no. That’s my attitude. And not attitude. That’s my thinking.

1:07:38 And it’s exhausting. It really emotionally dries you out to say constantly no. And I’m all for yes, by the way. And I have long stories to tell. Not punchlines or slogans, as you already saw today.

1:08:02 Brian Rose: Dude, I like long stories. But if he did say your name, that is a dangerous prospect. Because journalists that he doesn’t like go… They disappear.

1:08:16 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, they disappear professionally. And it’s a horrible thing, of course.

1:08:23 It is… It breaks your heart. I’m like this wording might sound too naive, but it really breaks your heart. Because it’s like an unreconciled love. You love your country and he does… She doesn’t love you back.

1:08:41 Or in our case, Turkey feels he to me. He doesn’t love you back. One thing. Second thing is all that labor to the garbage. And then you have to recreate yourself after you’re 40. It’s not easy.

1:09:01 And in my case, I’m recreating my life in another language. I’m having some difficulties.

1:09:09 Brian Rose: Which language?

1:09:10 Ece Temelkuran: English.

1:09:11 Brian Rose: In English.

1:09:12 Ece Temelkuran: I’m writing the new book in English. And I’m a stylist in Turkish. And I cannot do that in this language as much as I want.

1:09:22 And writing in English is not only writing in another language, but it’s also another state of mind. Turkish is a very emotional language. Whereas English? Oh my God. God forbid.

1:09:41 Brian Rose: It’s like a perfect challenge.

1:09:44 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. No metaphors.

1:09:47 Brian Rose: Do you go home often?

1:09:49 Ece Temelkuran: No, I don’t.

1:09:50 Brian Rose: Do you visit Turkey at all?

1:09:53 Ece Temelkuran: No.

1:09:54 Brian Rose: Is that a conscious choice?

1:09:57 Ece Temelkuran: Yes. Emotionally it’s hard.

1:10:00 After Turkey in Saino Melancholy, I went back to Turkey. Due to the timing of that book, because it somehow coincided with the coup attempt in 2016. The limelight was on me. I was on Hard Talk, Jon Snow, Channel 4 and so on. So when I was going back, I was having this heart attack on the passport line. Because at the time they were confiscating the passports.

1:10:33 I don’t know if they’re still doing that. So there was this lady passport officer. And she took my passport. She looked at me, looked at the passport, looked at me and I said, okay, now it’s happening. Either they’re taking me to the, you know, they’re prosecuting me or they’re confiscating the passport. And then she screamed.

1:10:56 Can we take a selfie? But really screamed. And then the police officer took a photograph. So I was overwhelmed. Like tears and laughter.

1:11:06 I thought this is what I hate. It’s the unpredictability. You can either be prosecuted or you could be posing for a selfie. How can you live with that unpredictability with those extremes? So one of the reasons is this. And the most important reason is sometimes I really feel heartbroken. And it’s so not correct to say this.

1:11:35 One, because there are people struggling and they’re giving very hard work to make the country better. Second, I don’t know. Yeah. From where I come from and in Middle Eastern countries, you don’t say things like heartbroken. You don’t get traumatized like American people. They make fun of you.

1:12:00 Brian Rose: But you are.

1:12:01 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I am. Like everybody, many, many other people who are traumatized more, far more than me. Sorry? They want their country back.

1:12:10 It’s not like that. I think they are also heartbroken by the fact that they are not counted as first class citizens anymore. They’re not wanted in their home. It is so painful to see that happening gradually. The contrarians, the thinkers, they’re not wanted.

1:12:35 Not only them. Whoever is not obedient. This is not my wording, by the way. Mr. Erdogan, the president has just announced that those living in Gihangir and in Shantişı, these are Greenwich Village or Soho of Istanbul.

1:12:55 He said, if they are well behaved, we won’t touch them. And then you don’t feel like this country is admiring me anymore. So yeah, they do feel heartbroken, many of them. And unhappy, probably.

1:13:18 Brian Rose: Do you see the same parallels in America?

1:13:23 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, I do. That’s why I’m writing the book. This How to Lose a Country, The New Ice Age of Politics. I think there’s a global pattern and I’m writing it and seeing that pattern fits all of them. And there’s a pattern of losing your country. That’s why I’m writing the book. To tell, to warn them. I was in the United States on a panel with David Remnick and Masha Gessen 2016.

1:13:54 It was right after Trump came to power. It was Women’s Summit. It’s in Lincoln Center. 3000 women. And people were constantly joking about Trump.

1:14:05 There was this nervous joking, sort of. As if we joke enough, this will disappear. And I told the audience, be careful with this laughter because it’s going to be your shelter. And you’re going to enjoy this comfort so much that you don’t want to go out. So now they’re in a different phase. And they understood what I meant then now, probably.

1:14:33 They’re not laughing anymore. Yeah. I keep seeing all these articles in New Yorker or New York Times or several other media talking about this laughter thing. I wish, you know, Western countries are, Western intellectual circles could put aside their arrogance. Arrogance of thinking that their establishment, their status, their state apparatus and their democracy are much more mature than Turkey.

1:15:02 I really wish they could draw lessons from what Turkey has been through. It’s not only good for them, but it’s good for us as well because this process of authoritarianism is an excruciating one. And it’s tiring. It’s exhausting. So in Turkey, people are tired while, you know, they got tired while they tried to fight back this process.

1:15:31 We need the stamina of Western intellectuals and they need our experience. And I hope all this thing would turn into a global conversation because ironically, the populist leaders, Trump, you know, Nigel Farage, Putin, they are all in conversation. They’re meeting, you know, they’re doing European populist leaders meetings. We are not. Not as much as the situation requires.

1:16:03 Brian Rose: And what do women do about this? Or what can women do? What is men?

1:16:11 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I think women are acting as coal mine canaries. I cannot pronounce this canary. They always first alarm like it happened in Washington with the pink hat.

1:16:30 Brian Rose: Yeah, more intuitive. You feel it.

1:16:33 Ece Temelkuran: No, because actually misogyny is an integral part of right wing populism. That’s why. And it’s not only women, women, children and animals and nature. These are the less protected groups, living groups.

1:16:52 So that’s why men respond very late. And the right wing populist movements target the less protected first and then they go to the most powerful, like state apparatus. Although Trump did it the other way, interestingly, like he started with FBI, which was interesting. But yeah. So women, they act like that. And it was the same thing in Turkey. They were the first ones to go on the streets and tell that something bad is coming. You know, winter is coming, sort of thing.

1:17:29 Brian Rose: And what should they do now?

1:17:32 Ece Temelkuran: I think I can tell what they shouldn’t do. I think they shouldn’t waste their time being outraged and they shouldn’t waste their emotional energy on being stunned or like, you know, astonished, appalled. They should think with cold blood, in cold blood. And they should be, they should calm down and make a strategy. And it’s all about organizing the grassroots movements.

1:18:06 It’s not about talking about concepts, about political theory. It’s about the very bottom of the society.

1:18:13 Brian Rose: Action in the communities.

1:18:15 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. Exactly. It’s not as sexy as talking about, let’s say, post-truth. I know. But it is the only way. And everybody will end up there. We ended up there.

1:18:26 Brian Rose: And so you’re taking a dig at the women that are being offended all the time and screaming out.

1:18:32 Ece Temelkuran: No, no, no, no. I’m not saying, oh, God, no. I don’t say that.

1:18:37 Brian Rose: But you just say that.

1:18:38 Ece Temelkuran: Repeating the outrage’s actions or words of populist leaders is only amplifying them more. And they’re sort of invading the communications fair. So there, you know, and there comes a time, there is no space for your word, for your opposing word. So let’s put these emotions and repeating and not believing, oh, incredible thing aside and take it for real and start working on it.

1:19:14 Brian Rose: Interesting.

1:19:15 I was listening to an interview with Sean Penn recently and he said something, I’m curious what you think of it actually. And he was talking about the Me Too movement. Now, Sean is a man, obviously. He’s also an actor and he’s, you know, whatever, probably quite liberal as well. And he said, he said, revolution is great. He said, but then that must lead to evolution.

1:19:36 And he just said, unless people want to help the situation evolve and help it change as opposed to fight and try to kill people over it, he said, we’re not going to get anywhere. I don’t know. What do you think of that?

1:19:51 Ece Temelkuran: Well, this is a very old discussion, like, you know, how to do it discussion. But yeah, although you just gave some good advice on how to do it.

1:20:01 Yeah. Yeah. Well, Sean Penn, I’m like. I know he’s trying to do a lot, but it’s more about invisible people, not visible people like Sean Penn. We have all this. I’m not talking about Sean Penn, no offense.

1:20:19 But, you know, humanitarian crises even have their, you know, attractive men or women accompanying them if they were to make up make to the first page of The New York Times. Therefore is happening. But then if George Clooney is not there, that was like, meanwhile, Kyrgyzstan is happening, but they don’t have Angelina Jolie sort of. So, yeah, when you have Sean Penn, it helps, obviously. But the real work, and I think Sean Penn would agree with me on that, real work is done by invisible people, by nobodies and so on.

1:21:00 And I think, you know, the new political answer, be it evolution or revolution, they won’t come from political gurus or spectacular characters or public figures. They will come from the collective, collective collectives of people. And people have been trying this. There’s a trend from Seattle to Tahrir, Gizzy, and, you know, Occupy Movement. They are trying to find a way to make this politically, you know, to turn this gatherings, they say, actions to a political tool.

1:21:43 Yet they didn’t. Until now, they couldn’t. But they will. They are trying to actually come up with a way, with a political form that would surpass representative democracy. They’re on that way. They’re trying. I hope we all will find the answer before it’s too late.

1:22:04 But I think, you know, the answer, whatever it is, it will come from those collectives. It won’t come from single men, political gurus or whatever.

1:22:16 Brian Rose: What can we learn from the

1:22:18 Ece Temelkuran: 70s? 70s? Yeah.

1:22:19 That we were capable. Full stop. Because 80s especially kept on saying there is no alternative. You don’t have to think about the alternative anymore. And that that infantilized the people globally. So we have to remember what we have done in 70s, what humankind was capable of imagining and attempting.

1:22:50 And more importantly, the daring should be remembered. And I think one thing should be clear. Our memory is erased globally. In order to the system to rule, we were infantilized to think that there is no alternative. So we are not supposed to do anything.

1:23:16 And meanwhile, our political memory and our capabilities were erased. So we have to remember 70s. And we shouldn’t be afraid of remembering 70s because they were, those people all around the world, were not only hippies or naive, flower power people. They were people who were trying to get organized and they were really strong. So it’s better we all remember them and learn from them actually.

1:23:51 Brian Rose: Your new book is fiction?

1:23:52 Ece Temelkuran: Non-fiction.

1:23:53 Brian Rose: Because it has a very non-fiction title.

1:23:55 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, it is. It is very real.

1:23:57 Brian Rose: And what’s my takeaway going to be from this? Am I going to understand these movements that we’re watching happening in the world?

1:24:07 Ece Temelkuran: First, I think we all have to understand this. This is a global pattern and it requires a global conversation. And second, it’s like there’s ironic twist, of course. I wrote it as a manual for beginner dictators.

1:24:23 So what to do if you want to be a dictator sort of thing. But of course it is for those people who want to oppose this, who want to stop this current. So I am actually telling what to do when you see the first signs of populism start from the right wing populism, starting right from there. You can do how you might want to react. And if you do this, this will have consequences. If you do this, these consequences will be there.

1:24:55 So I’m giving a roadmap sort of, if you are starting to be subjected to such political current.

1:25:03 Brian Rose: But this isn’t a how-to manual.

1:25:06 Ece Temelkuran: No, of course.

1:25:08 Brian Rose: What did you see in Venezuela? What was that like being there?

1:25:13 Ece Temelkuran: Chavez was starting to build his own myth. There’s another populist leader in fact. But I went to Barrios, the little districts, poor districts, and I learned, and I wrote about this, that it’s not Chavez being the hero coming and changing the country. It was years of grassroots work by nobody again. So that was very inspiring to see that people were committed to find another way, probably a better way to live.

1:25:51 And I believe in that faith and in that determination, I think, more than any other ideology.

1:25:59 Brian Rose: Back to the grassroots.

1:26:01 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, I mean like to believe in a better world, to believe in a better humanity.

1:26:07 Brian Rose: Yeah, better politics. How do you write? Do you wake up every day and demand a thousand words?

1:26:15 Ece Temelkuran: No, no, no, no, no. But I wake up very early and I start writing and then…

1:26:22 Brian Rose: Long hand.

1:26:23 Ece Temelkuran: Long hand, yeah. Seriously, long hand.

1:26:27 Brian Rose: In English?

1:26:28 Ece Temelkuran: Sometimes in English, mostly in English nowadays, and I write on black pages if you want to hear something, you know.

1:26:35 Brian Rose: Really?

1:26:36 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah.

1:26:36 Brian Rose: Where do you get black paper?

1:26:38 Ece Temelkuran: There’s a shop in Istanbul. I can get you a lot of notebooks from there, black notebooks.

1:26:43 Brian Rose: Okay. And what? Is it used like a white pen?

1:26:45 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, a white pen.

1:26:46 Brian Rose: See, this is exactly what we dream that you’re doing.

1:26:49 Ece Temelkuran: No, come on.

1:26:50 Brian Rose: Looking over the ocean, right?

1:26:51 Ece Temelkuran: No, there’s no ocean. There’s nothing. Actually, there’s a kindergarten.

1:26:55 Brian Rose: Okay, so black paper?

1:26:56 Ece Temelkuran: Black paper, yeah. It’s very good for my eyes, actually. If you have astring matters, I don’t know why I’m telling this, but yeah. The white paper, you know, is somehow disturbing.

1:27:07 Brian Rose: Okay. So you wake up early, and then what? Do you have a practice?

1:27:12 Ece Temelkuran: I don’t know. I wake up early, I write some mostly, you know, for myself.

1:27:18 You know, not the work itself, and then in the afternoon after a power nap, I go to real work. Like, you know, if I’m writing non-fiction, I go to a series working.

1:27:30 Brian Rose: So morning is for fiction?

1:27:32 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, fiction and other lovely things, like lovely topics, they say. Like poetry, and so on.

1:27:39 Brian Rose: Are you writing other books at the same time? Do you have articles?

1:27:49 Ece Temelkuran: I’m thinking about a novel, but I’m not writing now. I’m not that fabulous to write two books at a time.

1:28:03 Brian Rose: Okay. And what would your tips be to young aspiring writers, or even old aspiring writers?

1:28:16 Your life sounds pretty exciting.

1:28:19 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you very much.

1:28:21 Brian Rose: If I went and asked a bunch of your friends, say five of your friends, and I said, what’s Ej’s superpower, how does she actually get all this stuff done? What would they tell me?

1:28:37 Ece Temelkuran: Mmm, good question. I think they would say she works like a crazy person. She doesn’t leave herself time to enjoy life. And, oh yeah, they would say nothing is enough for her. Yeah, actually this morning somebody, a friend of mine, told me that you have a Nobel Prize Syndrome. I said, is that a good thing?

1:29:04 Am I getting a Nobel Prize at the end? And she said, no, no, no, it’s not like that. It is getting a Nobel Prize and saying, oh, that’s not that important. Everybody’s getting bad anyway. Yeah, it is, you know, all these things, art, writing, they all come from this idea of you’re not liked enough, you’re loved enough, let’s be clear about this.

1:29:27 It’s not a healthy occupation at all. So, yeah, and you keep your sanity by creating characters or telling stories, real stories, whatever. It’s not the most healthy way of being, obviously.

1:29:46 Brian Rose: What would temporarily satisfy you, the Nobel Prize?

1:29:51 Ece Temelkuran: Um, yeah.

1:29:52 Brian Rose: Good, let’s just put that on.

1:29:54 Ece Temelkuran: I would love, well actually you know what, rejecting the Nobel Prize would be cooler.

1:29:59 Brian Rose: Would be cooler. Which you wouldn’t reject.

1:30:02 Ece Temelkuran: I wouldn’t though. I’m like, just to make it clear, I wouldn’t.

1:30:06 Um, no, temporarily, I don’t know. You know, things, tiny things happen and then you feel this joy and then you don’t want Nobel Prizes or anything. You know, like someone, ah, the other day in Oxford, I was having an event with Sarah Winman who wrote Tin Man, this wonderful book. And there’s this Sudanese man, very old man. He has an hearing thing, I’m sorry.

1:30:41 And then he started talking about my books. How does this Sudanese man, he’s not an Oxford scholar or anything, he’s coming from the other part of Oxford where real people live. And then he bought three of my books, I signed them for him. It was magical. Like, oh and imagine, like a man from Sudan living in suburbs of Oxford, reading about, you know, he bought The Time of Meets Once, it’s about, the novel is about 1980 military crew in Turkey. Why?

1:31:13 You see? It’s amazing. It’s amazing.

1:31:16 Brian Rose: That is amazing.

1:31:18 Ece Temelkuran: Although it’s not a big success, it’s not a prize, but, and then, you know, this is like cliche almost, but you feel like, ah, this is why I was doing this.

1:31:31 The original idea was this, and it’s happening. And you feel like, hmm, I did something good today, sort of.

1:31:37 Brian Rose: What about a Hollywood movie from one of your books?

1:31:41 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, that would be lovely. And I want Mary Streep to play.

1:31:44 Brian Rose: To play, okay.

1:31:45 Ece Temelkuran: Madame Lilla in Women Who Blow a Knot. She would love it. She does not know yet. She’s good, so.

1:31:54 Brian Rose: What was the best day of your life and the worst?

1:32:00 Ece Temelkuran: Mmm, best day of my life. I wasn’t ready for these questions.

1:32:07 Brian Rose: That’s the point of them.

1:32:10 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah, best day. I think with my boyfriend, we had a wedding party. That was my best day.

1:32:20 Brian Rose: Why?

1:32:21 Ece Temelkuran: All my friends were there, and everybody was happy. It was all heart, heart, heart. It was like a mini-woodstock. I felt enriched, as a person, as a human being. And all those work, books, and my events, it was so not important.

1:32:46 I think it’s because I was myself, only myself, nothing else. I wasn’t supposed to be courageous. I wasn’t supposed to be brilliant. I wasn’t supposed to be charming and so on. It was just me, and I am famous for self-ridiculating, self-mocking, and making jokes about myself.

1:33:04 I wasn’t supposed to pretend that I’m clever.

1:33:08 Brian Rose: That’s a very nice thing. You don’t get that opportunity very often.

1:33:14 Ece Temelkuran: No. And the worst day was, I think, the day I was in Tunis, the day that I was fired.

1:33:22 Yeah, that was the worst day. I was creeping on the ground, crying. There wasn’t this strong woman thing. It was horrible.

1:33:30 Brian Rose: But you came back. That’s the strong woman thing. What would we be surprised to learn about you?

1:33:37 What is something that we’d be like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe she does that. Besides playing with the mini-loaves of bread with the…

1:33:45 Ece Temelkuran: Oh my god, you saw that on Instagram?

1:33:47 Brian Rose: Forks on Instagram. You do a good… Who did that originally?

1:33:50 Ece Temelkuran: Charlie Chaplin.

1:33:51 Brian Rose: Charlie Chaplin. Except one of the loaves fell off.

1:33:55 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. I’m a good dancer. Very good dancer, actually. But it doesn’t suit to being an intellectual woman, so I cannot perform it too much.

1:34:07 I’m a pretty good dancer and crazy dancer, and I can dance for hours and hours.

1:34:14 Brian Rose: Style?

1:34:14 Ece Temelkuran: Do we have a style? No. Any style.

1:34:17 I do tango as well.

1:34:19 Brian Rose: Oh, okay. Yeah. What keeps you awake at night?

1:34:25 Ece Temelkuran: Awake? The words that I couldn’t tell.

1:34:29 The sentences are, oh my god, I told that.

1:34:32 Brian Rose: You could have put it in a book?

1:34:35 Ece Temelkuran: No. In a fight, in a discussion, in something.

1:34:38 Brian Rose: There must be a word for that in English.

1:34:41 You wish you would have. So you think of the phrase later.

1:34:45 Ece Temelkuran: What is the esprit la scalier in French? The esprit that comes to you when you’re going down the stairs. That one keeps me awake sometimes.

1:34:55 Brian Rose: What?

1:34:55 Ece Temelkuran: That means the thing you could have said. And I wish I had said that. Not written that. Said that. More than anything.

1:35:03 Brian Rose: And what scares you?

1:35:06 Ece Temelkuran: My fears. I am afraid of being afraid. Because that is the biggest sabotage that one can do to herself. And I am afraid of sabotaging myself.

1:35:23 With my fears. Because I have a lot of fears.

1:35:26 Brian Rose: But you manage them. Or you have until now. At least that’s the way it looks.

1:35:32 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. What matters is the facade.

1:35:37 Brian Rose: But you’re conscious of it. Like you’re consciously making sure. Because every day it’s kind of a fight to keep them at bay. Which allows you to be who you need to be.

1:35:45 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. Exactly.

1:35:46 Brian Rose: And who you want to be.

1:35:47 Do you feel a responsibility to the world, to the people of Turkey, to keep writing?

1:35:54 Ece Temelkuran: This is a very long story. But to cut it short, yes. I do. And sometimes I do think that being a good writer is being free of all things. Including the responsibilities.

1:36:09 But there is a side of me that I cannot take out. And I would not like to take out. And that is that responsibility. Yes, I do have responsibility to write for Turkish people. And in Turkish as well.

1:36:27 Brian Rose: So you’ll go back to the language.

1:36:30 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. Now and then I go back. I mean, I’m writing articles. Right now I did. I said Jani.

1:36:36 Yeah. I do write articles in Turkish sometimes.

1:36:42 Brian Rose: But feeling that way can affect what you write. So in some ways.

1:36:49 Ece Temelkuran: Yeah. I mean, there’s this famous bleep, let’s say, that a good person cannot be a good writer.

1:37:00 Because you cannot kill your darlings if you’re a good person. Unfortunately, I’m still a good person and I chose it intentionally.

1:37:10 Brian Rose: So you don’t kill your darlings?

1:37:13 Ece Temelkuran: Not all of them.

1:37:14 Brian Rose: And what does that mean when it comes to writing?

1:37:18 Ece Temelkuran: I think in the name of the story, or for writing a good story, you should be ready to do anything. I am not that limitless when it comes to story writing.

1:37:27 Brian Rose: But you don’t write the book blowing the knots unless you’ve already killed off some darlings that we’ve never made.

1:37:34 Ece Temelkuran: I did. I did. I did. Some of them. Yes, I did.

1:37:37 Brian Rose: Sure. You have to be ruthless to create these works.

1:37:41 Ece Temelkuran: It’s not like that. I’m opening the wound and then going like, mmm.

1:37:47 Brian Rose: Okay. Close your eyes, you open the wound and then you go try to fix it.

1:37:53 Yeah. Exactly. Ej, I always ask a few questions at the end to all my guests. I’m going to ask you, if I could give you this magic mobile phone and you could call up the 20-year-old Ej and give that young woman a bit of advice.

1:38:08 Ece Temelkuran: You’ll make me cry now.

1:38:09 I don’t know where she is. Maybe she’s still on the coast, but probably in law school or journalism school. What would you tell her? What advice would you give her?

1:38:19 I think I would say you’re good enough. You’re good enough.

1:38:25 Brian Rose: Why does she need to hear that?

1:38:28 Ece Temelkuran: Because everybody’s saying otherwise. You’re saying her that it’s otherwise.

1:38:36 Brian Rose: Which is why she’s overachieving and doing these crazy things.

1:38:40 Ece Temelkuran: You don’t have to do more than you do. You’re good enough. Enjoy it. Okay. Yeah, I think I would say that.

1:38:48 Brian Rose: Which would mean less anxiety and less books.

1:38:51 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. I like too many books. I wouldn’t take someone seriously who wrote 14 books. It sounds like you’re publishing your own books.

1:38:58 That’s ridiculous.

1:39:00 Brian Rose: Second part of that question is, best advice you ever received could be from another writer, from your mother, from your father, from anyone you met along the way. But something you might remember.

1:39:19 Ece Temelkuran: Best advice? Yeah. Let me remember. Well, this is going to be weird. But the best advice I received was from my character Madame Nilla.

1:39:32 I had to invent that woman to give me some advice at the time when I was in Tunis after being fired. And it was about this. The name of the book comes from there as well. The magic is in your breath. So keep breathing. You’re going to create magic.

1:39:58 You’re going to blow magic to everything like life, men, books, children, whatever you want to do. And yeah, that was the best thing. My best advice I got from Madame Nilla and other advices in that book is quite good. I had to invent that woman to keep me up through that process. That’s why she has very good advices.

1:40:24 Brian Rose: Who is she?

1:40:25 Ece Temelkuran: It’s a combination of several women that I met throughout my life. And all were amazing women. Therefore, she’s the most fabulous woman. Like this combination of fabulous women. That’s the superwoman sort of woman.

1:40:40 She’s the older woman in the book. She’s the wise woman, but she has her weaknesses and dark side and evil side even. She’s the ultimate mother who’s not very compassionate and touchy, but she knows to lead the women who are not ordinary. So she’s kind of a woman that many of us need at the moment, I think.

1:41:12 Brian Rose: And the magic is in the breath because as you stay alive, you can continue?

1:41:20 Ece Temelkuran: Women who blow on knots is a verse from Quran, the Islamic holy book. And in Quran it says, be aware of those women who blow on knots, which refers to witches. Because in all times they were tying ropes, the women, and they were preying on them. And at the end of the pray, to seal the pray, they were blowing on those knots. That was doing witchcraft.

1:41:46 So Quran banned the witchcraft, therefore it said, be aware of those women who blow on knots. So actually it’s the witches.

1:41:56 Brian Rose: The book is about witches, sort of, is that Islam, witch-like women?

1:42:02 Ece Temelkuran: And of course they’re intellectual, political women, but they are lacking the magic. Or they are lacking the self-esteem at the time.

1:42:13 So they are renewing themselves through this road trip that they take with Madam Nila. So keep breathing, keep going. Keep going. And you are the creator of things. Acknowledge it.

1:42:30 It is you. You are the one who created all this life, and you can manage everything. Don’t be afraid of being powerful. Don’t think that it will make you lonely or whatever. Dry. Yeah.

1:42:49 Brian Rose: Do these characters talk to you?

1:42:51 Ece Temelkuran: They did at the time. Sometimes I miss them even. They were very good friends. And two of them were inspired by real people. Amira, the dancer, Tunisian belly dancer, and activist journalist.

1:43:04 She’s a real person, and her name is Amira. She’s a Tunisian, amazing woman. And Mariam has a different name. She’s a, you know, in the book, she’s an Egyptian academic. She’s a friend of mine with a different name. They were inspired, of course, by these people.

1:43:23 But there is a lot of reality in the book as well. And they speak to me.

1:43:28 Brian Rose: Still, or they leave when the book is done?

1:43:31 Ece Temelkuran: No. They, you know, yeah, the characters go away when the book is done. That’s why I miss them sometimes.

1:43:38 Because you meet new characters, you’re wondering in your head, you start speaking to them, so the old ones go sort of to their island of reality, I say.

1:43:48 Brian Rose: Until the sequel comes out. Last question, you know, to that 20-year-old that’s watching us now, male or female around the world, who’s living in one of these countries, you know, that has one of these leaders, which is, you know, most places these days. And they want to do something about it, you know. They want to make that change. What advice do you give to them?

1:44:12 Ece Temelkuran: Don’t get imprisoned. First. First things first. Don’t fall. You know, don’t be incarcerated. Keep doing what you’re doing. Oppose. But don’t let them catch you. That’s the most important advice, I think.

1:44:35 Brian Rose: Okay. That’s important.

1:44:37 Ece Temelkuran: It is important. Stay free so you can stay active and you can continue being effective. Because you’ve seen what happens when you can’t be effective.

1:44:49 And like many of our colleagues, friends are in prison right now. Osman Kavala, a very good friend of mine, is in prison because, simply because he’s a good man. Okay. I’m going to tell it this way because he is like that. He was a leading figure in NGO circles. He was a businessman and he was all about dialogue when it comes to ethnic problems or, you know, political problems.

1:45:14 He is in prison now. Almost 200 days. And… And Turkey. Yeah. It is so depressing because once people were getting in prison and we were outside campaigning for them.

1:45:34 You know, everybody is somewhere else. You know, there are not many people campaigning for those who are in prison and so on. So it is quite depressing for people like me, I think. Because that’s not an option anymore. That’s dangerous in itself.

1:45:50 Brian Rose: Yeah, it is. Which means people forget about these people.

1:45:54 Ece Temelkuran: They don’t forget, but it’s amazing. You know, it’s incredibly exhausting because all these people, you know, who are campaigning for the imprisoned journalists, intellectuals, they have a schedule. And on each day they have a court to attend to.

1:46:11 Go and imagine a life like that. Like, you know, you have a job to do. You have a family. Then you have this court case every day that you have to go and, you know, support your friend, support your colleague.

1:46:24 Brian Rose: It is. They are doing this, you know, super human job, actually. It’s exhausting by design, maybe. It is. It is. Exactly. Exactly. Definitely.

1:46:35 Yeah. Ajay, please keep writing.

1:46:38 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you.

1:46:39 Brian Rose: And please stay optimistic. And stay safe and keep writing in English. They say that constraints make great art. I’m sure you’ve heard this one.

1:46:51 Ece Temelkuran: Exactly. Actually, I feel that. And so this could be something very, very beautiful. Or not, now, just to… Well, we’ll see. We’ll see.

1:47:01 Brian Rose: I know we’ve been trying to speak to you for over a year now, and I’m so glad to have fun with you.

1:47:07 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you very much for your patience and for having me here as well. It has been a true delight.

1:47:13 Brian Rose: You’re a fascinating, extremely wise woman. And I think if the females are the canaries, you might be the loudest canary of the canaries.

1:47:21 So I think we should listen to everything you have to say.

1:47:24 Ece Temelkuran: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

1:47:25 Brian Rose: And I appreciate the way you say it, because you’re not the one who is saying no, no, no, no, no all the time and shoving it in our faces. I mean, you’re almost too kind to this man that you speak of.

1:47:36 And I think that is the long-term solution of getting grassroots and getting people to observe and make this difference and make this change. And we’re in a really strange time right now. I have family in America. When they come to London, I realize how divisive it is. I see the pain in my mother’s eyes when she talks about the president or who voted for who.

1:47:54 And it’s very hard to go to a social gathering now without a fight starting. I mean, this is not the way we should live. And so it’s great to see this parallel again. Another example we have, I’ve recently talked about Putin. Trump comes up all the time.

1:48:10 But now to see in Turkey with Erdogan, what’s another example? I mean, how many do you have to see to not see a pattern here at a time when, in fact, information is free and we should be the most educated and open-minded and intelligent part? And it seems like we’re reverting back to things that happened 100 years ago.

1:48:30 Ece Temelkuran: My point exactly. I mean, we should be using all these tools to create a better version of ourselves.

1:48:36 And, you know, paralyzed, afraid and astonished people are not our better versions. We can do better than this. We can imagine a better democracy, better countries, better world and future. We are capable of doing that. I think we should remember that first, first of all.

1:48:59 Brian Rose: Yes, it starts by talking about it. So, as we say on London Real, it’s about the journey. I wish you all on yours. Come back and see us when the new book is finished.

1:49:08 Ece Temelkuran: Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:49:10 Thank you. Thank you.