Alexander Ward - The Chosen One

Full transcript: Alexander Ward on London Real

0:09 Hello and welcome to London Real. My name is Brian Rose. Joining me is the world champion, Nick Gabriel. And in studio today is visual art creative and filmmaker Mr. Alexander Ward, who is also the director and producer of Tierra Vida, An Ayahuasca Journey. Welcome.

0:42 Thank you for having me you know i have to say i think you are our guest with the poshest accent is that so indeed in a big way um you know a lot of people know you because we posted your film uh which is a 25-minute film i believe about your journey down to peru and ayahuasca and i was just curious how that came about and it was at your first film and if you could just tell us a bit about the making because it was really personal and i think that’s what draws people into it yeah i mean and nick and i I must have watched a hundred videos on ayahuasca before we went in and so we’ve seen them all. I think I did the same to sort of prepare and get all this knowledge of ayahuasca. You guys think maybe it would have been a better idea to not watch any videos?

1:25 I think so yes because I think I mean with the ayahuasca experience it’s so deeply personal for each individual. I mean you can be in a ceremony with a group you could all be drinking from the same brew with the same shaman and you can be absolutely guaranteed that the person right next you is having a completely different experience. So I think it would be good to get the data from these documentaries but really just to go there yourself and just deal with the raw data of the direct experience yourself. I stopped watching like the last week Nick he was sending me a few videos and I was like that’s enough I can’t I didn’t want to see any more pictures of what it looked like I just was like I’m just gonna go in and see what happens. I think also a lot of people when they go and have this experience sort of the next morning they’re like it just wasn’t what I expected at all. Really? Yeah. Do you think that’s because of the media had shown. I think so it’s because of all this media people consume and they have certain expectations of what this will be like I know I certainly did. You know you articulated so many things that I couldn’t about the experience and one thing that I watched your video after we did it and you you said I was telling Nick earlier that it’s not a hallucinogenic experience because when your eyes are open I didn’t see anything that wasn’t logical didn’t compute we had a dog running around and like the dog wasn’t

2:31 Talking to me like the son of Sam or anything. As people want you to believe. Yeah, it wasn’t like it wasn’t great when you close your eyes I saw lots of visions, but it was still see things in your peripheral vision sometimes Yeah, and things were built more blurry and accentuated, but I wasn’t seeing things that weren’t there Well, I mean it’s it’s my understanding that the only reason we didn’t have a full-on hallucinogenic experience is that we didn’t take enough because um a friend of mine was saying like he said He said to me the night before he said make sure you take enough to get out And I was like, what do you mean? He was like enough to get out of your like you know you were sensory perception and I’ve heard from a couple of guys who’ve done some crazy shit like this one dude was telling me he was riding this giant dragonfly in another dimension like literally flying on it and I was like that sounds pretty hallucinogenic I don’t think that’s hallucinogenic you don’t know I mean well can you imagine that’s all like an inward journey he’s not actually physically riding this dragonfly yeah he was in another dimension but yeah yeah I don’t know it was I definitely didn’t see things but when I close my eyes it was it was completely different. I mean there’s different experiences you can if you’re in this sort of environment in a dark room eyes close you have a very inward journey but there’s also the sense if you take

3:42 These things in nature I would advise many people try and do this go out camping deep in a deep nature environment and you will begin to see nature with almost new eyes because we go through so much life kind of in autopilot of all these social conditionings we picked up and all these habits that we that I’ve grown out of this and it’s suddenly like we’re shaking out of this sort of autopilot mode and we see the natural world for how it really is and it’s just become so amazed everything is not like you’re getting high in docile things seem almost hyper real and you’ve seen things not through your perception of how you think but really how they actually are we were we were in an urban environment so we didn’t get to see that nature the next day I mean I looked at it I did go out to parks and things the next day but we weren’t submerged in the jungle. I know people say like you know we’re all nature so it’s all the same thing but it’s it’s not quite the same thing tables chair don’t sort of bustle the same kind of life that leaves and all these sort of things do. You know I’m reminded of an account I read by a guy who moved to the Amazon and he every time he walked into the forest I went to the jungle everything would just go silent and he asked one of the the guides one of the the tribesman who was his guide for his time there.

5:02 Why is this happening? And he said, because the forest can hear the city on you and it can smell the city on you and you still have that violence in your mind. And he said, it took like a few months before he’d walk into the jungle and there would be no change. Everything would just continue because he had to acclimatize and I thought that was kind of interesting. That’s really interesting.

5:20 How did you make this film and why? And when was your first Ayahuasca experience? How’d you find all this stuff? Okay, that’s a many part question. If I start first in why I decided to create this, I was at the time creating and still am an I wask a graphic novel, and a graphic novel is an attempted grown up term for a comic book.

5:41 But it’s a really nice method because it utilizes artwork and the visual portrayal of these words but also the in-depth monologue of the written word that can get really in-depth in what you’re thinking. Is the document that you see early on in your video, Is that the precursor to the graphic novel? In a way, but this is kind of separate. I mean, as I’ll touch, I mean, as I was producing this, I found out, you know, many people not familiar with this. It takes so much time to sort of produce all these things, especially with animation.

6:10 I mean, it took me and a group of three others six months to make four minutes of animation. This stuff takes a long time. And I found that as I sort of created artwork for one instance, one ayahuasca experience, I’d have another two or three more experiences. And then when I finished that, another five more would come. And I just wasn’t getting the data out quick enough that I was bringing in.

6:33 So I just thought that this isn’t working. Just get the camera, start speaking, and just see where it goes. And I think what also the ayahuasca does, it kind of gets rid of a lot of labels you might be associating yourself with. I studied animation, I worked in animation, I thought I am an animator and everything I do will be animation and it’ll tell me that this is not the case, you can do whatever. And then you get brought into different modes of thinking and different ways of creating various work.

7:03 And I mean, that was such a different experience for me. Two years ago, I wouldn’t have even thought I would have gone in front of a camera. I mean, two years ago, if I was sitting here, you guys would not be able to get a single word out of me. I always hid behind my artwork, which is not so much of it. that’s true of a lot of our artists or animators do you think that they hide a bit behind it I mean you get a whole broad range of artists but I mean a lot of artists will be this sort of shy retiring type that I was always hiding behind but artwork was a case of what I couldn’t connect with people in person I could create artwork and this was a form of connecting with people and so the I was board about you know that what I really wanted deep down was was to connect with people, and to sort of bring that out.

7:47 And that’s something I’ve been working on ever since, really. So at this point now, how are you connecting with people? Is it through the video, or do you have a better communication ability since you’re? A much better communication ability by far, by far. I got this posh accent due to I was going to do it.

8:09 I mean, how can it make you communicate better? It really just opens you up quite a lot, And it allows you to be much more honest with people. And yeah. Wow. And that was what?

8:19 Two years ago, your first experience? Two years ago, completely different type of person I was then. And did you fly to Peru to do that? I flew to Peru. Actually, my first psychedelic experience was not with the ayahuasca.

8:29 It was actually with the psilocybin mushroom. Two years ago, I began to get involved with the project. And this was a project that Graham Hancock was involved with. And also another man you might not be familiar with called Simon Powell. And he’s written a couple of books on the psilocybin mushroom.

8:45 I’ve heard that name, but I haven’t read the name of his words. The Simon Powell. Yeah, Simon Powell, yeah. He’s probably another good guess that might be going on. So through the communication with these guys, I just was brought into a completely different world and all this new data was coming towards me.

9:00 And myself, along with the Simon Powell gal went to the Lake District where psilocybin mushroom just grows everywhere. Really? And it’s a really beautiful place and it’s hugely a native mushroom. And I find it no coincidence that the mushroom grows in these really beautiful landscapes, and it’s almost, in a sense, like the mushroom receives this beautiful site that it receives and gives it back to you in the case of this, you know, hugely powerful and beautiful psychedelic experience.

9:30 And so the first time was with the psilocybin mushroom deep in nature. And as I said, you can have this very inward journey, or if you’re in nature, you have a very outward journey where you gain a new perspective, and you get to see the external world with new eyes. And so from that instance, I was like, yes, let’s book a flight to Peru and see what this eye was. So it was based on that project, got you curious about it, and then you went up there and took that on your own?

9:55 I did, yeah. How was that first experience? With ayahuasca? No, it was psilocybin.

10:02 I was brought into a huge theme of peace. It really, the psychedelic experience It really brings you into the very, the now moment, and it shakes off all these autopilot modes that I was talking about, and really into the current moment. And to be in the current moment, you really have to accept how it is in the moment, how everything is. And in that acceptance, there is a lot of peace. And it just picked up all these things.

10:28 I was worried about things that didn’t matter. It was just all shed from my being, and it was just like a huge weight of myself. Did that have a lasting effect, or? Yeah, it definitely has a lasting effect. It’s something that really, really saves me.

10:41 What I should have said is, did the effect last? Did that specific effect last? Like that feeling of having all those inconsequential worries shed from your being, did that carry over? I think it does, but I mean, in the type of world we live in, it’s so easy to pick up these things again. They just come into our being all the time.

10:57 It’s amazing how many little chips on our shoulders we pick up here and there. You know, Alex, I wanted to ask you something. A couple of weeks ago, I received one of those Facebook photos that’s making its rounds. I think you might have seen it as well, Brian. It’s a picture of four natives of the Amazon.

11:18 And they’re all plucking or pulling arrows towards the sky, aiming at something. There’s five of them. They’re pretty naked, except for the little loincloth. And then there’s a bunch of text which says, no homeless, no depression, no anxiety, no traffic jams, et cetera. And yet we call them primitive.

11:38 And I wanted to ask you, from your time spent in the jungle with these people, do they seem, in your opinion, happier than us in the West who are in this rat race and have all this amazing stuff and all this disposable income and 50 different kinds of hamburger that we can go and buy in the street? I mean, do they seem happier and more at peace, honestly, in your opinion? I think, yes. I would have to say, initially, yes. And I think it’s all in the sense of living in a symbiotic and correct relationship to the natural world that’s not at odds.

12:14 And they’re much more in tune with how they are at the very moment. I mean, their religion for them is kind of, how do I say this? I mean, the way of communicating with God is to look with God within themselves where us in this modern society is sort of put it far away on some sort of plateau where this connection with God and the source is all sort of far away from us. It’s interesting. Do you think that’s a product of the ayahuasca experience itself?

12:45 Because you were saying at the end of the film how it almost takes religion out of the equation because you almost go direct to the spirit inside you, and you don’t have this constructed westward constructed religion to kind of go through. Could you explain a bit more of that point that you made at the end of your film? OK, well, I mean, I think you touched on a little bit In your ayahuasca video, also, when you talked about this whole, this god source, we tap into what this is, and it really seems that there is this sort of ego construct, and this ego, which is ourselves, has grown out of these social conditionings and the habits that we have grown out of these social conditionings, and this has created this false notion of what is self, but it seems the more you experience with the ayahuasca, the more you notice this kind of observer of the self and this is tuning into what is sort of the higher self and people use the phrase a unique aspect of God. It is really opening to your eyes at what you are really deep down and fundamentally and forever is the entire works. A conscious aspect of the universe that is now able to look back and observe itself. And I remember leading up to the ayahuasca it was these certain messages by people like Alan Watts, Osso and Krishnamurti, and these were very liberating at times, but it is actually with a direct experience of this that is truly liberating. I’ve had many aspects where you

14:11 Sort of look at the stars and you realize that what you’re really looking back on is yourself. Oh, that’s cool. I mean, I guess it’s like Brian and I always say you can understand something intellectually, but until you’ve experienced it, you know what I mean? That’s why I say it’s important for people. Well, it’s good to sort of watch all these I was good documentaries if you don’t have the direct experience which I believe is one of the most important as an experience a human being can have then you’re missing something very important about what it is to be human and it could be taken a whole step further Brian and I listen to a band called tool and they have this one track called vicarious I think they use them Alex Grey’s artwork yeah animation but the whole song is about how like we We live our whole lives vicariously through television, right, and tabloids and all that other crap.

15:03 Like, we get our kicks from watching other people’s misery and joy and pain and success and victories, instead of going out and living life ourselves. And I guess doing things like ayahuasca is just turning your back on that in an extreme way, right? What do you think? And it also takes out a lot of these constructs you have around, like, you know, I know you had some religious, not baggage, that you brought with you, but you had a whole construct of your whole childhood.

15:25 That was baggage. Okay. that but like I went directly to this source and I don’t even know what it told me you know because it didn’t actually tell me but it showed me or whatever but you just felt his presence yeah I felt this presence and it was with me and it’s still with me somehow I mean we’re two months now since our experience and honestly it seems like it seems some way a long time ago and a short time ago and I know I feel very differently now than I did the day after because the day after I wrote it all down and we did the episode three days later and remember it was the first time I experienced this it was I had like seven eight ceremonies and then it was like a year later until I had the next set of experiences and in that year my rational mind just started to kick in and just started to tell myself it wasn’t real it didn’t really happen it’s all in your head and somehow I managed to get back on the plane and experience that again and when you go through the experience you have this overwhelming idea that god this really is real this is really happening and I remember it was at the end of my second set of ayahuasca ceremonies. I think I must have been up to 20 or so ceremonies at that point. And I’d always kept a bit of distance from it. I realized that, you know, there is this real life and there is this ayahuasca experience and I sort of always separated the two in my mind. And then towards the end, just I had this huge feeling really

16:41 Started kicking that, oh my God, this really actually happened. This was all really real And they had a mini breakdown in the in the kitchen of this so it was great you break down What kind of break? Oh, not not like a full-blown breakdown. Just like I can’t believe it’s really really real So like the the two because I know what you mean It was like we had that I was a time and I saw this and now I’m back to my normal life And I’m this way but what you realized that they were the same or you’re now the same person Just um the fact that it was already real that it really happened You know what? I’m reminded of is how I’m a shaman she goes to work with with the ayahuasca arrows in the Amazon and she spends like did she say three weeks or a month like just drinking the whole time every day yeah every day month yeah it’s to confuse like reality whether they’re this dimension with the ayahuasca dimension I mean that was just I think the first place I went to was a place called there a refugo at the planno this is in the ketos and the guy who owns a place a guy called Scott Peterson and he has gone through a lot of his own shamanic initiation, and they have just these amazing wooden constructs, the refugo at the planet. I spent my two weeks there living in a tree house atop the canopy in the jungle, which is just amazing.

17:53 This guy… Do you ever get bored down there? You might get a bit complacent and because there’s just no distractions. Only boring people get bored. I just watch your video and I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s like thinking like seven or 10 days and you’re doing an ayahuasca ceremony every night and then during the day but I mean you’re you’re recovering because it takes a lot out of you but this anyway this guy he spent 60 days and nights drinking ayahuasca every single night in the street house and he said by the end of it he was pretty sideways 60 days yeah I mean we’re I mean Nick and I are new piece you know we’ve done one and we did it in an urban environment doing it again soon though yeah well Nick wants to go back. You wanted to go back. Nick is going back and I know I should go back because I’m mean reverting. It’s an old term we used to use in the city. Like I know I’m going back. I’ve taken a lot with me, but I know I’ve lost a lot of what I’ve seen and I need to see it again. Um, what do they say?

18:52 The shamans say you should, you should be having it every two months. Is that correct? But you should never be away from mosque ayahuasca for that long. It’s something that stays with you for a long time. I mean, we’re just with the ayahuasca. It’s not some what people need to understand. It’s not some sort magic pill where people taking it’s like ah I’m enlightened it’s it’s not like that at all it it works its way through your system for a long time and certain things only really began to come into fruition for me like quite a while after no I can’t agree with that don’t you notice the same thing but they said for she said four to six weeks and I felt it definitely four weeks in five years it might be ideal but we just don’t have access to you yeah I was gonna much and now you were you’re off for three months to Peru what did your next six months look like? Okay, so next week I’m flying off to Peru to shoot some more short film footage. Is this for another film? Yes. Okay. It’ll be another short film.

19:42 Do people ever sit you down and say Alex you need to move on from the ayahuasca? I mean I still work a lot in the commercial industry with my artwork so most of the people I communicate with on a day-to-day basis have no kind of understanding with this ayahuasca business and when it sort of crops up when I talk to them about it, it ultimately boils down to, so you’re again going to the jungle to get high? Is that what you’re doing? As if anybody would conceivably pay all this money to fly to the jungle with man-eating bugs and all this sort of thing and get high in the jungle.

20:15 What do you say to that? Because you’re very specific in your film about how this is not a drug and we associate that word drug with so many things. So what do you say to these people? It’s not their fault, it’s just the culturally perceived propaganda that people have put out about these things. And then you just try to explain really what it is essentially.

20:36 I mean, if you go down to the jungle, to the shamans and you come and bring these ideas that these things are drugs, you’re going to get a big mouthful from these people. This is your hallucination that the propaganda is given to you, it’s just not like this. So you’re open with people about what you’re doing and you tell them about the ayahuasca lifestyle. I mean, you have to gauge certain people’s, you know, you can’t, you can’t talk to people about it.

21:01 All types of people. I mean, especially if you’re trying to get a job in the art industry, it’s not something you bring out all the time. All right. So you’re going down for three months specifically to shoot footage or you do? Yeah.

21:13 I mean, I’ve teamed up with this girl who she has gone for her own shamanic training, an apprenticeship of sorts. Is that something you’re interested in doing ever? We’ll see. We’ll see. What about you, Nick?

21:26 Dude, you know what? I’ve asked myself a question many times, but I’m kind of reluctant because there’s a lot of responsibility that comes with that. And I personally believe that you will, if you take on that role, you will open yourself to attack by entities that don’t want people to be enlightened. And I don’t know if I’m strong enough of an individual to do that at this point, maybe when I’m like 45 and I’m like a Jedi Knight. But right now, not so much.

21:54 This is actually an aspect of ayahuasca that people should probably be aware of, that there is these kind of battles between shaman. The ayahuasca has been brought down by all this sort of black magic and witchcraft stuff. If you’re going for the shamanic train and you have shaman attacking you with these little magical darts that they use for the experience, it’s pretty strange. Can you explain that? Okay, well I’ll talk about this one girl that I’m going to film about who went through a shamanic training.

22:23 She was with the shaman one night and they went to visit another shaman in a hut. And they went through this ayahuasca experience with this person, this other shaman. And as they walked him back through the jungle, back to where they lived, suddenly the shaman just killed over in pain and it was like, that bugger, he’s attacked me. He set this dart against me and she didn’t… Did he say that?

22:42 Did he say that? Bugger. What the other shaman was trying to do he wanted to show his supremacy over this other shaman to show that he was a better shaman you know our shaman said something interesting to us and she said ayahuasca doesn’t really dictate how it’s used so it can be used for good or dark purposes and that’s scary because I don’t know about you Brian but to me the idea that something as powerful as that being used malevolently is terrifying because you felt a little helpless in there oh yeah no we needed to be with the right person you know most definitely I mean do you see things that you don’t like about the industry or when you go down I mean I know there’s been a rise in in what is it shamanic tourism when you get on there as I think some things that really bother you or this inviting between camps or yeah I mean there is this whole it has become quite business there and there are various people that own like the shaman and that you have if you want to have business with the shaman you have to go through this person to do like an agent and they pay peanuts to the shaman they take all the money for themselves and it’s okay if you play by their game because you’re like a cash cow for them but as soon as you try and go behind their back and try and access the shaman directly that that’s where these problems can come.

24:06 On a different note, I see that having watched your video, I was very impressed by your artwork, and I wanted to ask you, did you feel that your creative abilities were augmented because of your ayahuasca experience? And the reason I ask is because I noticed that my right brain was being activated in some strange way, and I know that that’s linked to the creative ability. Did you notice anything like that? Were you better at drawing? Were you better at writing?

24:33 Like that? I mean it wasn’t I mean I did go with the intentions of trying to to get better at artwork but it wasn’t so much that the experience has changed my artwork it more changed myself as a person what I wanted to achieve with the artwork. I mean before I took ayahuasca I seemed to be producing art for the sake of producing better art to be a better artist and I remember in ayahuasca ceremonies this was brought up and I just thinking why on earth am I even doing this, why am I producing artwork? And it really opened me up to what I actually wanted to do with my artwork. And so it wasn’t so much the artwork, but myself as a person and that in turn changed my artwork.

25:14 What did you conclude that you wanted to do? I mean, the art work was very good for receiving direction in life. But what people might come to realize quite early on is that there is a difference between what you want as an egoic mind, and actually what the heart wants on a deep down, soulful level. And so even though I did come and I wanted to be this better artist, what I really wanted deep down was to connect with people and share experiences with people, so as to try and achieve that, what I wanted deep down.

25:50 Interesting. I mean, how many people do you think are out there striving for things that they probably You don’t earn even one, Brian. A lot, I mean, I see it these days, and I mean, I’ll just make jokes to myself just thinking, man, like I could use a little ayahuasca, but you know, obviously it’s not my call. It’s something that someone has to be drawn to. But yeah, I mean, the more and more I see it, it’s just interesting, I mean, how old are you, Alex?

26:13 25. Okay, it’s just interesting to see, like I, at 25, I would have never had a realization like he’s having, you know? For me, it took many more years, so I was like, oh, this whole world’s not just about me and my ego, you know? And so it’s- What, that’s happened? The ayahuasca will really break that down.

26:31 It really will, right? It’s quite a terrifying way as well. It’s kind of refreshing to hear, you know, someone, you know, actually, you know, your age just being like, okay, wow, there’s another purpose that’s going on here and I want to kind of go toward it. And it’s just such a positive thing. And yeah, I wish everyone could get a little bit of that.

26:46 But you know, I don’t know why. Is that just me projecting my ayahuasca ego on other people? Could be. I don’t know. I mean, I think artists more than most people have to deal with the problems of ego because It’s the kind of profession where non-artists are always constantly in awe of, in a sense.

27:01 I mean, it’s not like, you know, you can be the most amazing accountant and you’ll still receive less praise than the most mediocre of artists. And so I think artists have to deal with that problem quite a bit.

27:13 How are you dealing with… So you created Tierra Vita and then it was uploaded by Graham Hancock on his website. And Graham is obviously a big proponent of ayahuasca and he got you a lot of exposure. I think by doing that, and how are you finding that media exposure, because you said you were behind the camera, or behind the artboard. Behind the artboard.

27:32 What is it? Behind the artboard. What is it? What is it? A palette or something?

27:37 Before that, but now you’re like the filmmaker guy, you know, how has that been for you? It’s certainly been an interesting experience, and yeah, I guess when you receive all the praise from comments, it naturally feeds into your ego. You just have to always be constantly aware and observe all these feelings that arise in you and make sure you know it’s like talking back to the ayahuasca like remind me don’t let me be consumed by this ego it’s interesting because we’re in a weird kind of space like that I mean Nick and I kind of created this about eight months ago and it’s getting like lots of positive feedback and like you know it’s every time we get positive feedback it’s just like we just feel like we’re doing something good that brings everybody else along and if that one show made them meet somebody or try something new then that’s just like a great positive energy we’re feeding out there yeah I mean it’s It’s like these new things we’re creating that’s not really for us.

28:22 It’s kind of, we’re creating things for information for other people that they can apply to their own life. And that’s the best part of it. Yeah. If it helps other people, then it’s fantastic. What’s your next goal?

28:33 You’re going to document this woman on her shaman? Yeah, sorry. We skip past that. That’s right. We do that all the time.

28:39 This woman, she called Rebecca Shaman and she has a book out called The Shaman’s Last Apprentice. Her last name is Shaman? Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s like a rapper having the last name Money.

28:47 Yeah. I’m not going to change my name to Alex Flower, Moonbeam, Starseed or something like that. Although award does have magical or mystical connotations anyway, doesn’t it? Yeah, award is something that keeps away evil spirits. That’s true.

29:00 Powerful. The chosen one. I think most people who have the ayahuasca experience do have the idea and the realization that wow, I’m God. I have the chosen one but it’s not referring to you as an ego, is referring to what is behind you, the higher self, the self that is connected to all life. And it’s something that the ego might try and grab at, but it’s almost like a little test of the ayahuasca to see if the ego will grab on to that.

29:28 Do people have that feeling? I think so. After their first couple of times with the ceremony, did they feel they are god-like? I think if they interpret… You just feel like that all the time, right?

29:39 Yeah. After your flotation time, these are… And so people only feel like that after ayahuasca. I had a humbling feeling with ayahuasca. I didn’t feel like any kind of empowerment with ayahuasca.

29:51 Okay, okay. Well, I mean, it’s as if, however the person interprets the messages. I mean, the ayahuasca is not a goal in itself. It’s all what the person does with the information provided from the ayahuasca and how they apply it to their life. Okay. Interesting.

30:05 So you’re gonna document her journeys? Yeah, so she ended up going to a psychic because she was going to Peru And the psychic told her, you know, if you go to Peru, you’re gonna, all I see is misery and death for you. If you stay here in London, you have a nice career in banking. So naturally she went to Peru, she didn’t wanna go in banking, I mean, who does? Yeah, that’s a career in death.

30:26 And she was working in Machu Picchu, and she had, went through all these series of events where she went through a bit of a breakdown and she didn’t know what to do. And she called out to the mountain, it’s like, please show me the way, show me what I need to do. And she hears a voice in her head saying, Come deep into the jungle, and it’s time for you to begin your journey, and I will show you the way. And after a whole series of events, she’s following the source of this voice, and she ends up deep in the jungle of Iquitos, about eight hours from the main town, interacting with the shaman who greets her and says, welcome Rebecca, it is I who called you.

31:03 Come on. It’s how it went. This is how it went in the book, but I don’t know. so from that she went into a shamanic apprenticeship and started to learn all the values from the shaman and Unfortunately, the shaman is now dead But the shaman’s wife who is also in her own right a shaman We are going to film this whole instance of her Reconnecting with this shamanic family and her and her training. I don’t know. She’s already gone through the she has and she’s just now returning What is the training like?

31:34 So, the shaman often takes on apprentices to teach them all the values of how to heal people in the shamanic way. How a shaman will heal is the ayahuasca that the shaman takes and the ayahuasca that the patient takes communicates with each other and this connects the shaman and the patient together and the shaman through this process learns to feel the pain of the patient and where they’re feeling it in their body and from this the shaman heals this certain location of the pain in their own body thus healing it in the patient’s body well okay i’m definitely my personality’s not cut out to be sure yeah i don’t see you like hey healing people and being too concerned about their issues i mean like with our shaman i was just amazed she means she gave so much in that ceremony i mean like she’s like i call her the hardest working girl in showbiz afterwards as like a joke because like she was like five hours singing, healing us, you know, sucking people’s energy out of us, putting burning stuff in our eyes, shooting burning stuff up our nose. I just had this image of Brian as the shaman in a ceremony going, what? You worried about your relationship with your mother? Man the fuck up. Drop and give me 20 pushups.

32:52 No, I just, I mean, you guys seem to go quite deep into the ayahuasca experience, but if I try, a lot of people don’t really go that deep into it. I think we had plenty, by the way. Do you think so? Yeah, I do. By the sounds of it. I really do. Yeah. And she told us later that she actually told us she was going to give us a mild version. I think not to freak us out, but she said she gave us a pretty hefty version, but I’m so glad and that we did get that. And it had the light in it as well, because if we had had a non, um, or a lighter version, I’m, I’m glad we, we have what we had. And I know Nick is, is looking to go back and I know I need to go back, but I’m not running back and back to the same shaman or you know, back to the experience. And I mean, I listened to your film again this morning and you said It’s something that some people kind of dread a little bit doing not just because the taste is horrible But you know, I’m not running back in even though I know I need to go back Definitely daunting. I mean there’s many substances that we know of, you know Alcohol which numbs and allows people to escape for life and then there are substances like ayahuasca, which Makes people brings people into makes people face reality Beyond anything else and for many that’s a terrifying idea But you’re fine to face life and it’s an idea like that. You’re ready to go Yeah For me, it’s not it’s not that I want to I’d so that I know I have to do because you just feel like you scratch

34:06 The surface last time. Yeah, I felt like I had to really how many said that only get stronger like after every single I wask ceremony. It just feels like just like I haven’t even scratched the surface of the first ones free. Yeah So how many ceremonies have you done? I’ve done about 20 in total. Have you ever done one in the UK and would you I have done? Yes, okay He’s like, I watch a black belt, dude.

34:27 And I’ve actually experienced the actual smoke DMT recently. Well, what was that like? Interesting actually. And it actually has something quite related to London Real as well. Because I mean, as I said, this is all very new for me.

34:41 I’ve always hidden behind my arc. So I was feeling this anxiety about coming on the show and anxiety about how I put myself out in public. You know, it’s a very daunting thing to put yourself out in public like that. And so all these feelings were in me And DMT, for the record, is hugely similar to the ayahuasca experience. What I would say is to really experience ayahuasca first, because if I hadn’t, I could totally see why the DMT’s experience would just be too daunting.

35:07 I mean, as Terrence Buchanan used to say, the only thing to fear in a DMT experience is death by astonishment. I could totally see how that could be the case. But as I took DMT, I went to the exact same place as with the ayahuasca, and I actually continued on work as I started in an ayahuasca ceremony. When you say you continued on work, what was that work characterized by? It was a certain instance, so I’ll introduce one in this particular ayahuasca ceremony.

35:33 I was surrounded by all these kind of beings, these old shamanic ladies, and they were all around me, observing me, and they had these little cups, and they were scooping essences of myself out. I was this sort of pool of water, and within this, there was this kind of darkness, and they were showing it to me, like, look at this, look at this, And as I looked into it, all this darkness was sort of grown out and it sort of came into my being and consumed me. I had no idea what it was.

35:59 And so this continued on with this DMT experience as I went into this certain realm, this inner state, whatever you refer to it as. So there’s kind of been like on pause. Yeah, exactly that. How did you take the DMT? It is smoked in a sort of glass paper pipe.

36:19 And so I ended up in this exact same place, and they were like, Alex, okay, we really need to deal with this now. You’ve sort of been avoiding this. And so I was brought back into what this little darkness was. And the whole area was beautiful colors of greens and all these sacred patterns, and it was really light. And I felt good energy from it, but from this darkness, it was a very bad energy from it.

36:42 And within this darkness, they’re saying, look, look what we found, look what we found. And as I looked into this darkness, There was this kind of sharp knife-like object, and they said, pull it out, pull it out, get rid of it. And it wasn’t as if I reached out in reality and grabbed it. It’s kind of, as I did, it was more the intention that sort of grabbed onto this. And as I pulled it out, a huge relief just washed over me.

37:06 And I realized at that point what it was, it was all these little, this fear mentality and all this self-doubt, self-attacking behavior. When I pulled it out, it was all gone. And all this more I had, dude, how can you not want to go back? How long did this, um, smoking DMT experience last? Cause then Nick has mentioned that it’s, it’s very quick.

37:27 It’s very quick. Like 15 minutes. No. Um, three minutes when you’re in deep. And then after that you still have, uh, it feels, still feels like you’re tuned into it a little and you can have a very nice insights into yourself, but it’s not the full blown full blown experience.

37:43 We’re in a different state completely. But it’s a positive experience. Oh yeah. And it complimented your ayahuasca experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah we did it.

37:50 Wow, interesting. But you’re glad that you did it after your ayahuasca for perspective. Yeah, and that’s what I would advise people. Okay, wow. Because it’s, I mean, the ayahuasca is, it’s very gentle with you.

38:02 It’s been characterized as having the personality of the grandmother and it’s very gentle with the soul. You know, for your first experience, I mean, regardless, you had a very heavy, heavy experience. But for many people, it’s very gentle first. It’s not gonna make you deal with anything too painful. The first experience, it’s kind of an introduction.

38:21 The second is when you get to the core values of what you need to address in yourself. And the third will sort of conclude that. And then if you just start to try and push into the ayahuasca further, the fourth one, it can get pretty heavy. It’s some dark stuff. Wow, okay.

38:34 But yeah, there isn’t really much to fear initially from the ayahuasca. I thought you were gonna say that you went pulled the blade out and it was London Real and they are the chosen one that’s making the highlight so Wow sorry and that was recently mm-hmm and how many how many months had it been before you had a drink and I waska the last time I drank I waska was in the UK this is when I was camping in Snowdonia and this was October the 28th and I’ve not had experience since then so it was like six or eight months later and seven and it was like boom you’re right back there yeah right back there I mean there’s a whole it just feels like yeah you’re just continuing on with the work and it’s just you’re back there in the same place it’s familiar and it’s like ah this place again so I mean you’ve got some perspective here I mean like what does Alexander Ward need to contribute to the world you think in like the next five years I mean what what is ideal that you want to have given back or have done it’s just about being honest with people sharing their experiences, and yeah, see if people, see if the feelings you have resonate with others, and there’s just this huge connection.

39:46 People are coming together, you know, with the internet. It’s like, we have so many, so much barriers of separation that it’s all just falling apart, and people are really just connecting with people more and more now. Interesting. Wow, and you’re gonna go to Peru, and then you said you’re going up to the States. Yeah, so I figured I’m gonna be dealing with a lot of people who have had experiences with ayahuasca and other psychedelic agents as well.

40:08 And what I want to do is film these people, get a lot of their perspectives, and start releasing this as short, episodic videos online to YouTube. So we get the perspective of just regular people and their experiences with this, because a lot of the things you see of ayahuasca, it’s all the go-to intellectuals who have all this information on ayahuasca, but really just the regular people have just amazing stories that they’ve gone through. I don’t know if you want to hear from all the regular people because I was looking for ayahuasca videos once and there was some like drunk chick, she looked like she just come from a couple of months partying in Thailand and she was like yeah like I took ayahuasca last night and I don’t know if it did anything and I was like do we really need to get this is astonishing.

40:53 Yeah I mean I’m going around filming and so if people you know if they want to appear on camera then sort of get in contact with me I’ll be traveling through America and Canada after Peru and I got to find something to do so you know give me a call and giving your life to ayahuasca to spread the message you’re like the Jesus of ayahuasca I walk in the earth spreading knowledge with YouTube yeah see what happens I mean look at the hair and the beard and stuff that I would follow him yeah and wow well that’s I mean that’s kind of that’s kind of cool and what are you gonna do professionally are you gonna keep doing these I mean I still take on a lot of freelance work I’m actually just doing this at the moment doing freelance work for various creative animation industries and all this. I think some of the stuff I’m doing now at the moment is the company do the animations for the TED talks and the RSA animate. The RSA animating is incredible man.

41:42 I got to see one of these in person they just blew me away. Is that the one you posted right on the Facebook group? I think so yeah yeah or someone else posted and I commented on it but I got to see this in person. Brian you got to check this out. It’s very cool. This is an amazing thing. Really? What’s the one thing people don’t know about animation? I mean you’ve seen there and done it. You were saying earlier you spent six months on something that lasted four minutes. Yeah it’s just a whole element. People just don’t quite understand just how long it takes and you know I often get like offers for free last job. It’s like hey I saw your animation. I have an idea for a music video. Can you make this in a week? No, I can’t do that. How do you use it with technology because you do I’ve seen what you see you do a lot of freehand drawing and then how do you integrate that with technology to make the animation?

42:24 Well, I mean, I studied in traditional animation, like the Disney techniques, the old pencil to paper, you know, it’s a hugely laboursome techniques that there’s more quicker digital alternatives now. And so, but to learn the traditional principles and disciplines of animation, it’s really good to learn those fundamentals to apply to digital animation and all that. So once you have that foundation, then you can move on to the digital stuff, which is a lot quicker.

42:49 It’s almost like learning jiu-jitsu before learning MMA, so you kind of have that positional strategy base that you can work off. You must bump into people in your industry that don’t have that classic training, that just kind of wanted to get an animation and started in with the technical side. Is that difficult for them without having like an artistic base, knowing how to draw? You don’t tend to get that so much in like the animation industries because nobody can just jump straight in and do animation.

43:22 It’s one of the art disciplines that requires the most amount of training. And so it’s not really something that crops up that often. I think he’s done animation. Even we had a guest here called the Barefoot Doctor and he’s got a big thing coming at the end of the year. You won’t be here otherwise you should come with us.

43:37 It’s called the Big Om. It’s on December 12th. And he has a little animation on his website showing the whole thing. I really enjoyed that. And I was like, wow, that must’ve taken a long time to do.

43:45 And so I respect for it. It’s a lot of fun there. It feels like your God making all these things come to life. And it’s one of the hardest disciplines to learn. It’s one of the most rewarding as well, I found.

43:57 Can’t you animate Glenn and Reel, Brian? Forget all this video editing stuff. Maybe if we could start. Some of you. Yeah.

44:02 Dude, we need an animation of Glenn and Reel. We’ve got a week. Let’s do it. Pull a few all-nighters and get it done. Yeah, we had a couple of questions from some of your people.

44:10 I think we covered them actually. One of our fans and critics, Simon Robinson, who is internally making fun of us as we switch from ayahuasca to picking up women, he asked about how your creative process changed as a result of working with ayahuasca, which I think Nick also asked you about. I think we touched on that. But one quick question from Travis Nobles, he said, what artwork do you think most closely resembles or communicates the visual aspects of the ayahuasca experience?

44:37 I think there’s a lot of great artwork that is inspired by ayahuasca and psychedelic experience. And it strikes me more as that artwork inspired from it. It’s quite rare to come across one that is exactly as the ayahuasca experience is moment for moment. I think, I mean, it’s so, I mean, who am I also to say that that person didn’t see that within the ayahuasca because it’s so different from each person. But there are similar graphics from all.

45:05 Yeah, it’s like they’ve taken design elements the experience and applied it to various artworks that we want to produce. You know, if we talk about examples, I know one of the most popular ones is Alex Gray, and he makes these huge big murals of artwork, and he has a certain message he’s learned from the ayahuasca. He’s using design elements he’s learned from the ayahuasca, and it’s all applied into one huge drawing that incorporates so many different elements. Okay, wow. And do you find that your lifestyles change, or your diet? Or do you party more or less after the whole ayahuasca thing? How have you changed as a person? Definitely less selfish as a person. I mean with my artwork it was all about how I could improve myself and you know you do come into a confrontation with the ego and it sort of really does break it down and become a much less selfish person more open to help others. I wish you could have taken this brand of ayahuasca behind. What’s this for this sudden Gentleness, but less selfish and do you say what?

46:06 Are you gonna be living like out of your backpack over the next like five or six months Is there something you’re used to doing or is that a new thing for you? Um, yeah, it’s kind of a new thing It’s kind of a new thing now I’ve always just lived in England and then You know lived in houses worked in animation. I’ve not lived out of backpack that much. Are you so exciting? Yeah Are you anxious of that? Are you looking forward to it a little bit?

46:29 But, I mean, what the ayahuasca has given me also, most of all, is just to go with the flow of things, not just such a controlled freak over it. Just allow the natural pattern of things to unfold. And it just, it told me at times, you know, don’t try and control the current of the river, don’t fight against it. Just go with the current of the river and that will give you more momentum to do what you want to do. The art of letting go, right?

46:51 I think that the funny thing I was thinking about this morning is that the actual experience itself it almost teaches you that because I remember when we just drank and we were waiting I was meditating in the dark for 30 minutes and it started hitting my cerebral cortex and I was just like it’s just gonna go take you and you’ve no choice. Gotta let go. Gotta let go and just it’s you know you’re not the tour guide tonight. That’s in what I also think perhaps what the shamanic singing and I don’t know if your shaman used to use a shakappa I think it’s called. The leaves yeah yeah. And I think what this does is if it if you go into an experience without that your ego can sort of grab hold of it and try and not let go but all these things just like it’s like a huge Russian river it just sweeps. What do you say to the the old grandma and grandpa who are watching you from America and they look at this dude that looks like you that’s talking about mushrooms and talking about ayahuasca and they’re like you’re not going anywhere near my son and daughter with these drugs you know what what do you tell them? I mean they’re feeding into the cultural propaganda they’ve learned from these. These are hugely positive tools for us, for all of humanity, and they give us great ability to heal ourselves and others and really confront what we want out of life, give us good direction, and it’s a great crime of the state, of our government

48:07 To separate us from this. I couldn’t agree with you more, man. Really, that is just… When Graham talks about how losing the sovereignty over your own body, it’s just really powerful when he talks about that, and whether we want to drink ayahuasca or not, but to argue against him for that argument is it seems very I think what he said if I’m not sovereign over my own mind and I’m not sovereign over anything we may not even talk about freedom there’s no point but for me the thing that’s even more concerning and that caused me more upset is the fact that not only are the good things restricted or prohibited but the things that are proven to be bad for us like sugar is an example right sugar has been proven to suppress the immune system and cause dental caries and osteoporosis and a whole bunch of other things.

48:56 But because Coca-Cola makes a bunch of donations to whatever fucking political party it has to get the land it needs to do what it needs to do. People like sugar too. You know what? But people, it doesn’t mean it’s right, you know? And it’s putting our face at like, you know, every, we walk outside you and there’ll be a billboard saying Coca-Cola this is like, helps you have a better life or whatever the current marketing slogan is.

49:16 And that is promoted as the right thing and it’s kind of like everything that’s right is wrong and everything that’s wrong is right. We live in a down world. Not so much what’s right and wrong, what benefits the system we live in. You have things like caffeine, sugar, and coke, things that may be damaging, but… Religion.

49:33 But they’re all a part of a system where it makes us work harder and faster, caffeine. It’s something that promotes the system we live in. If we have something like ayahuasca that makes us realize truths about ourselves and we don’t rely on government control, we don’t rely on control of religion, but we’re more independent as a person. This is something that doesn’t benefit the system we live in. Do you ever look at the people in the jungles of Peru and you’re looking at them all, and they’ve been drinking ayahuasca all your life, and you ever look at them and say, you need to get a job?

50:01 I knew you were going to say something. I just wondered if you ever were going to say something. Why didn’t you contribute to society? Because I was thinking, what’s the GDP of Peru the other day, and I was like, how are you thinking of that? I was like, do you ever wonder and say, this has gone too far, or do you think, I’m just curious, do you ever get that perspective And you’re like, wait a second, we’re going too far in?

50:19 Well, I think it’s also like, you mentioned earlier, would I do the shamanic training myself? But I think it’s no good if I hide away in a jungle taking this stuff. We need to bring this into our culture and how we can create a positive change in our culture, not just hide away in the jungle. And so what? I just thought something else.

50:39 Nick and I are reading a book called The War of Art and it’s all about, I don’t know what it’s about actually, but it’s about trying to get your creative processes out and how a lot of us were put on this earth to do a certain thing. And not necessarily what you think we should be doing, and maybe that’s what your thing is. Maybe your message is to get, your job is to get this message out to these people. Man, don’t you see how the system that we live in, just as he was saying, like how it gets us to go fast and everything, the system has tricked us into believing that we are like a workhorse, like this functional unit that has to produce X amount of whatever, and that’s not what our job is here.

51:14 Well, that’s not what a job is the wrong word. It’s not what our purpose is here. Our purpose is just to be here, right? I mean, do you really think a cat or a flower or a hawk gives a fuck about like how much money it has in its bank account or whether it’s got a retirement plan or when its next promotion is at work? It doesn’t because it’s living in the present moment.

51:33 It’s like so connected to everything. And I know that’s a little bit extreme. You know, I have a bank account. We all have bank accounts, but I already think that’s a huge fucking trick that’s been played on society, you know? I think it’s a half-empty cup light look where you look at things sometimes can you I’d love to know a better way Can you tell me I would us you’re talking about is a better way, you know I don’t think it’s better to point to all the things that we can do as opposed to the way we’re being oppressed You know, that’s true Yeah, and I just think that’s what we’re doing right now Which is talking about something and I do think you have to do something that the population isn’t doing to find a greater enlightenment But that means doing ayahuasca or going somewhere and doing something completely different I mean, that has cropped up quite a bit, in my eyes, why was concerned me is just putting all this effort into my job and my work and it just comes up like, why am I even doing this?

52:20 You know, it’s just, I should do things that make myself and others happy and not trying to play the game. So you can buy more stuff that you don’t even need a one. Exactly. Yeah. And is that the answer you give yourself that I mean, do you have an answer to that or does it keep coming up in your ceremonies of why are you doing this commercial side of your art?

52:38 Yeah, I mean, it’s all something we need to do in order to live in the system that we’re in. We need to produce our work, we need to get a job so that we can live comfortably in this life. But it comes a point where you just become consumed by this mentality too much and it’s time to take a step back and really do what’s going to make you happy in life, I think. Okay. Well, we guys, just a few minutes left, Alexander, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t cover as far as what you’re doing or how people get in touch with you as well?

53:07 Do you ever know how to ask a Jesus blessing? I don’t know. Are you Jesus or why I ask her? I had this so much and I just came back from Africa and I had this whole Jesus look going on and so many Africans pulled me aside and I was like, are you actually Jesus? Really?

53:22 No, man, I’m not. I’m going to go really crazy. Jesus was a black man. I don’t think you’d be this pasty white guy like me. No, one woman even asked for a blessing and it just got really crazy.

53:32 She just blessed her. That’s how it starts. Yeah, no, no. I did say he started, I’m sure. I started to talk about you know how Christ is just some this consciousness that that is with inside us and The only one that can really bless yourself is you and she goes no, no, no, no I just want you to tell me that I’ll be okay. Like oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to presume I didn’t mean Jesus was that easy And I guess we all just want someone to tell us that we’re gonna be okay I think people are looking for like a leader to take us there sometimes as opposed to be giving the answer you gave him which is to look inside of you. I think so. I mean a lot of people aren’t willing to face things about themselves and they would rather project these problems on to someone else and have them drag them through the problems that they may be in.

54:13 What if ayahuasca ceased to exist tomorrow? What would you do with the rest of your life? What would I do? That is a good question. That is a good question.

54:21 Can I keep the values and lessons I’ve learned from the ayahuasca already? Yes. yes well it just be I mean as I said this I was good it’s not it’s not the end goal it’s how you deal with the information you’ve been given and how you provide that back into into society at large I don’t spread the message I mean Brian we may be asking like more practically what he has actual if you couldn’t go to the jungle from now I could document you what would he be doing yeah or what would that your your purpose be really what would my purpose be spread in a positiveness in my own unique way, whether that be through art, making films, or just bringing people together.

55:00 That’s cool. That’s very cool. Can I just mention quickly, you said if there’s anything I want to mention to people, get into this ayahuasca, and I would say to those people unwilling to accept change, that they should not really take ayahuasca because you can’t really proceed through life as you once did after you’ve taken such a thing. It really throws a spider into your works. I used to be a concept artist for video games, and now that’s changed quite a bit now.

55:24 You don’t have no interest in doing that anymore. I have to make new direction. There comes a point and it’s just like, I can’t anymore produce my art for plastic toys and all this sort of thing. That’s good advice. Yeah, we had a guy, actually Simon Robinson, he saw our pre-Iowaska episode, and we had one episode called the Iowaska challenge, right?

55:43 When Nick was like, come on, we gotta do this. And he was like, I don’t want you guys into the wrong way a lot of people are like ayahuasca bring it on yeah he sent us an emails and he’s like you know you don’t want to be like ayahuasca bring it on and I agree that is the wrong frame to go in and you definitely need to go in wanting to go in and wanting to look inside because if you’re thinking I’m gonna take on ayahuasca I’m guessing that’s probably not the way you want to walk into that ceremony yeah all right so they can find you at some what what it works is your yeah just Alexander at a what he works the code to UK. Okay. Or on Facebook, what he works in and all that stuff. Did we, um, we miss anything. I don’t think we did. Okay, good. Um, we just want to, um, send a shout out to Graham Hancock and Luke Hancock. Um, we’ve been communicating with them and I know you’ve done some work with him. So hopefully we’ll get grandma on the show. Um, and just get into his head a bit. That would be fantastic. So, um, thanks to you for coming on. Thanks for having me. It, it breezed by as usual. It really did. I thought it was going to get into some Iowa’s experience, isn’t talk about that. Well, we do have camera and We can have you back in about six months too. So until then it’s about the journey and Can’t stop won’t stop London Real All right, guys. Take care