James Rhodes - Instrumental

Full transcript: James Rhodes on London Real

8:39 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is James Rhodes, who is a classical pianist and author of the book, Instrumental, a memoir of madness, medication, and music. In your book, which was almost banned until the Supreme Court unanimously overthrew an injunction in May of this year, you detail your on-again, off-again relationship with music, being the victim of child rape at the hands of your primary school gym teacher, and attempting to take your life in a mental institution.

9:05 But in the past few years, you made a remarkable transformation, becoming the first pianist ever to receive a record deal with the world’s largest rock label, Warner Brothers, with all five of your albums top in the iTunes classical charts. James, welcome to London Real.

9:20 James Rhodes: Thank you. It’s nice to be here. What a lovely introduction.

9:23 Brian Rose: You like that? Yeah, we don’t have much more to say, really. So get out of here.

9:27 James Rhodes: Some people say I should just do those and stop.

9:29 Brian Rose: We’ve got so much to talk about.

9:31 Your book, you know, I know you played last night live in London with, you know, Nicole Kidman on the stage. There’s so much to talk to you about the injunction. But since we’ve got the time, I was wondering if we could start off with the music.

9:44 James Rhodes: Yes, please.

9:45 Brian Rose: Something you talk about in your book, which is your Princess Diana moment, you had at seven when you found a cassette tape of a piece of classical music.

9:53 Yes.

9:53 Brian Rose: Can you tell me what happened? And then also for an ignorant American, how is that a Princess Diana moment?

10:00 James Rhodes: Ignorant American, stop it. No, look, there’s such the one thing that I can’t stand is this.

10:05 There seems to be this kind of dichotomy between those who know about classical music and everyone else. And I just I don’t that makes no sense to me at all. We all know about classical music. We all I think most of us want to know maybe a little bit more about classical music, but it’s incredibly hard to find out where to start. And it’s very off putting.

10:26 It seems designed to put people off. It seems to have been, I don’t know, appropriated by a certain kind of person who wants to keep it just, you know, for themselves and not share it. And when I was a kid, I found this old cassette tape and it was piano music. I was addicted to the piano. Always have been, always will be.

10:47 But originally, the piece of music was written by Bach for solo violin, which is quite an intense instrument all on its own. And he wrote it after his wife died. Bach was, I mean, entrenched with grief. He was orphaned by the age of 10. There’s 11 of his 20 children died in infancy or childbirth.

11:08 His siblings died. And then I don’t know why I’m smiling. I mean, it’s terrible. And then the love of his life dies like that. No warning.

11:14 Just bang. She’s gone too. And he writes this piece of music. He kind of builds this musical cathedral to her memory. And there’s this 15 minute movement called the Chaconne in it.

11:30 And a couple of hundred years later, Italian pianist and composer, he transcribes for the piano. So you can remember they’re very different instruments. The piano is bigger. I mean, there’s a lot more power, a lot more resonance. And so he takes this piece of violin and it’s just like he pumps it for the steroids.

11:47 And it knocked me to the floor. For me, it was classical. That’s a very important distinction. I think everyone will remember the first time they heard a piece of music that really resonated with them. Maybe it was after a breakup or maybe it was they were watching Top of the Pops when they were, you know, nine years old and they saw something and they thought, I want to be a rock star because all kids want to be musicians.

12:12 For me, it just happened to be classical. And it was this piece and I couldn’t put words to it. But of course, that’s that. Ian Foster said something like it’s the deepest of the arts and deep beneath the arts. It goes underneath everything.

12:26 You know, you can look at a painting where you can read words, but with music, it just it bypasses everything. It’s just it just smacks me right in the soul. And and I was hooked ever since then. And now here’s the great thing. I’m playing the bloody thing.

12:41 I’m performing. I’ve recorded it. I perform it in concert halls where I would go and see my heroes perform. And I’m not there to playing the same piano in certain cases that these guys played. And it’s weird, isn’t it?

12:56 Lucky. I’m really, really lucky. You think, you know, seven years old and you think, I just imagine being able to play this and then imagine being able to play on stage and then fast forward. And here I am playing it on stage. And it’s just still like a goosebumps thinking about it.

13:15 I don’t know how I got here.

13:17 Brian Rose: You mentioned Bach’s pain that he went through in his life. And, you know, you’ve had your fair share, but you don’t think that all great art comes from pain.

13:27 James Rhodes: No, the opposite. No, I don’t know anyone who hasn’t gone through.

13:31 I mean, monumental levels of pain. That’s the human condition, isn’t it? It’s impossible. It’s impossible to live life without experiencing trauma to some extent or another. These guys, these heroic musicians, they composed and created despite the pain, not because of it.

13:54 They created despite the stuff going on in here, the depression, the anxiety, the awkward total lack of social skills, the really bad hair, the syphilis, the alcoholism. They composed despite that because it’s the one thing that provides a kind of half a way out from that madness. You know, it’s either sit at the piano and just pour your soul out onto the manuscript page or throw yourself out a window. I mean, I really believe that. And just they happen to be known as having experienced trauma and being mentally quite unstable because they’re so well known.

14:30 But I guarantee you, you line up a thousand people, whether they’re working in Burger King or Waterstones or, you know, they’re a Hollywood A-Lister, they’re all going to have, you know, enormous levels of trauma.

14:43 Brian Rose: You mentioned classical music. It doesn’t seem to be, you know, allowed to the masses sometimes. We’re not always taught that we can access classical music, but you’re saying that that seems kind of silly. And yet you kind of bring it back to the masses because you’ll play with, you know, jeans on and tattoos and I play your way and you’re signed by a rock label.

15:06 James Rhodes: I do. Look, I tried. No, actually, I’ve set up my own label now because I just think, you know, I’m a massive control freak. I want things done the right way. I don’t want to think about, you know, an album cover and know that that’s going to take six months to get approved and signed off on it.

15:22 I just, I want it done now in the way that I feel it’s right. And a classical, I mean, just the industry itself, it’s filled with such awful people. I mean, it’s just rammed full with asshole. It’s just, it breaks my heart. It’s just, I think of it a bit like the way people feel about bankers when the whole subprime thing started happening.

15:50 It’s just, it’s predicated on fast levels of greed and snobbery and narcissism and why? You know, if Mozart came and saw a concert today, he’d just fall over laughing at the way it’s presented and the way it’s treated. The one thing that must never change is the music. Like, it’s just immortal. It’s perfect.

16:20 Everything else around it, I think, is up for grabs. Why is there any other genre of music in the world, in history, where people have said, okay, you have to wear a certain outfit? I mean, would you call Matt Bellamy from Muse or Chris Martin from Coldplay and say, you know, we’d love you to do a couple of nights at the O2, but you can have to wear white tie and tails because that’s, you know, what we do. I mean, come on, why? Who decided that it has to be this sacred stick-up-the-ass kind of, God forbid you clap in the wrong place or, you know, you cough or you make any noise.

16:57 It’s so weird. So I wear what I’m comfortable with and not to make a statement just because, I mean, why not? And I introduce the pieces from the stage. I talk about the fact that, you know, Beethoven was, he’s so much more than just the deaf composer. This guy was almost beaten to death twice before he was a teenager by his drunken dad.

17:19 This kid, he’s 16. He takes his father to court to make sure his father’s income goes direct to Beethoven so that Beethoven, this teenager, is able to feed and clothe the family because he knows his dad would just spend it on drinking. You can’t imagine the shit these guys go through. And then he creates music that just, and he’s deaf. Come on, it’s insane.

17:46 So to talk about that stuff and to set up the pieces and then play them, to me, it shows, I hope, a certain amount of respect for the audience because most classical concerts now, I don’t think they really think about the audience. It’s the performer and the music and that’s it. And actually, you might as well just put on a CD and listen at home with a cigar and a glass of Scotch. It’s important to share things with the audience because otherwise, all that happens is that I’m playing a Beethoven sonata on stage.

18:18 The lights are kind of up high. And these guys are like reading program notes about sonata form in Beethoven’s Vienna. Like, come on, really? While I’m playing the fucking thing, why bother? It just…

18:30 So I like lights down. I mean, where else can we go in this day and age where we’re not assaulted by commercials and tweets and Tinder and Facebook likes and reality TV? And we can just switch off and put your arm around a hot date and close your eyes and forget about the mortgage payments and the school fees and the angry ex-wives and just the noise and everything, just for an hour or an hour and a half can switch off.

19:02 Brian Rose: Did you ever consider playing a different kind of music than classical because of all the hang-ups?

19:09 Brian Rose: Or was it…

19:10 James Rhodes: No, no, because Christ, the music is just… I mean, it’s immortal. I’ve got no issue with crossover. I’ve got no issue with any other genre of music.

19:21 It’s just, for me, it has always been and will always be classical that just gets me going. And I think the reason for that is because it’s not that one is better than the other. I’ve done a lot of work with music education, with kids, nine, 10-year-old kids, and I wouldn’t in a million years dare to try and convince any nine-year-old girl that somehow Chopin is better or more important than Jessie J. It doesn’t work like that. It’s about what works for you.

19:53 And the thing with classical for me is that you can have one piece of music, whether it’s three minutes or 30 minutes long, of classical that somehow drags us through every emotion known to man. It’s like pure undiluted, concentrated, intense, just… And I love that shit. I mean, I absolutely… I live for that.

20:16 So there’s something about it that will always be, for me, incredibly special and worth exploring more and worth getting rid of all the barriers to it. Because I don’t care if people despise classical. What I care about is them being force-fed shit that isn’t classical, dressed up to look like it’s classical. So you’ll have, I don’t know, someone singing something from Les Mis and they’ll go, this is opera. Or they’ll have the 50 best chill-out classics ever.

20:46 So they’ll take a three-minute chunk from the middle of something. They’ll get rid of the rest of it and say, this is classical music. I can’t bear that. So give them a 25-minute piece. Listen to it, experience it.

20:58 And then if you don’t like it, no problem at all. But at least listen to it first.

21:04 Brian Rose: So the one piece of classical music that has had the most impact on my life, and I’ve never told anyone this, is Bolero. Oh, what a piece. But the reason it is is because when I was at MIT as a freshman, I was in a fraternity house and we had Hell Week, which was the initiation week where you had to make it through a lot of military-type hazing.

21:28 And they basically kept us out for five days straight. And we had to play Bolero over and over again, nonstop for five days.

21:36 James Rhodes: And that didn’t turn you mad?

21:38 Brian Rose: When the tape flipped up, we had to flip it all night long. And so that song is always in my head.

21:44 But it’s beautiful. It’s an amazing piece. And it’s so simple. It’s based on one very simple melody, one very simple rhythm. I remember when it came out, I think one of the critics, or someone or another composer, I can’t remember who, they actually used it as evidence that Ravel had lost his mind.

22:03 James Rhodes: It’s like he’s gone mad. Because he had gone mad in a way. He was a truck driver in World War I, Ravel. And just was never the same. Afterwards, the things he saw and the things he experienced.

22:13 But it’s an amazing piece. There’s so many of them. There’s an infinite. Mozart’s Complete Works has just been released on 70 CDs. Just think about that for a sec.

22:27 This guy, he dies at 35. 70 CDs for his complete work. Imagine that. Imagine somehow not just being able to play and perform, but actually composing that volume of music. And I mean, within what?

22:46 He started, I don’t know, five, like some precocious asshole. 30 years, being able to churn out that. And the consistency and the fact that still 250, 300 years down the road, 500 years, 1,000 years down the road, it’s still going to be listened to and studied and people, the greatest minds of our generations are going to be going,

23:13 James Rhodes: I mean, beyond our comprehension. That’s something worth exploring, man.

23:17 Brian Rose: Do you think about your legacy of music?

23:19 James Rhodes: No, I don’t have a legacy.

23:21 Brian Rose: No, come on, man.

23:22 Dickens leaves a fucking legacy. You know, really, Mandela leaves a legacy. Beethoven leaves a legacy.

23:29 James Rhodes: No, I think I said something like this in the book. The only legacy I think I could ever dare to leave would be enough money so that my children don’t have to do a job they hate and worry about the mortgage and can focus on doing just what makes them smile like from the inside out.

23:49 But no, I mean, I’ll do the best I can. I’ll always strive to be a slightly better husband, a better father, a better human being. But no, I don’t think, you know, a bunch of albums and some concerts and a book is going to be much of a legacy.

24:04 Brian Rose: But you will leave music behind. And some of these greats, like you talked about, left sometimes lots of music behind.

24:11 Yeah. And also some of them were never recognized for their music while they were.

24:16 James Rhodes: No, my God. Yes, absolutely. Schubert, this guy, he was like five foot nothing.

24:21 He was so ugly. Most terribly, his nickname was Mushroom Face. I mean, he was just really syphilis, lost his hair, just couldn’t get laid for love, no money broke. I mean, seriously broke. The last 12 years of his life, he earned the equivalent of about $1,000 a year.

24:39 Like 90% of everything he wrote wasn’t performed in his lifetime. Never. It just, and yet now, recognized as one of the greatest composers who ever lived. I think that, you know, then’s the breaks, right? You got to try.

24:53 Brian Rose: Do you ever recognize that you’re an outlier in that you’re being recognized for the music that you do now in real time, whereas many musicians just had to toil on.

25:04 James Rhodes: I don’t know, I resent you quoting Malcolm Gladwell for a start.

25:08 I don’t know. I don’t recognize the Vietnamese. I mean, that’s a lovely thing to say. Thank you. You know, for me, it’s always, always, always, always going to be about music and without sounding too evangelical, trying to bring as music to as many people as possible.

25:29 One of the things in the book that I’m most proud of is the fact that there’s a Spotify playlist that runs alongside it, where instead of these, you know, box set, you know, 50 greatest revision classics ever, or there are, you know, over 20 handpicked pieces that just, I mean, will nail you to the wall. And not just the pieces, but they’re performed by people I’ve chosen who I absolutely just, they’re the best recordings you can get of these pieces. They are absolutely just the nuts.

26:01 Brian Rose: Have you performed by you as well?

26:03 James Rhodes: One performed by me. I thought I was cheeky enough to do that. And that it was the Chacon, this piece that I discovered and I was saying, I figured I’m allowed that one out of 23, 24 is okay. But they’re, you know, performed by my heroes, Glenn Gould, Ganyu Kissin, you know, I mean, these amazing, amazing musicians.

26:20 And they’re not easy pieces, some of them, you know, Prokofiev and Shostakovich, they’re not, but they are immortal. And so the fact that now they’re, you know, a few hundred thousand people listening to this stuff and it’s growing all the time, all around the world for free. What a time to be alive. Think about that, you know, in the palm of our hand, we have a device that can listen to pretty much every piece of music that has ever been composed. Within a split second, you tap and it’s there.

26:50 Brian Rose: Something else, man. Has anyone done what you did as input a specific track for each chapter and then put that on a free Spotify list?

26:58 James Rhodes: I don’t think so. It just seemed inevitable. It just seemed like the most natural thing in the world.

27:04 Brian Rose: Yeah, some people have said sometimes it’s too much. Sometimes the music combined with your prose on some of these chapters.

27:10 James Rhodes: Yeah, but that’s a great thing. We love too much. My God, isn’t that great?

27:14 Isn’t that great not to have just the kind of absolute mind numbing just yeah, everything’s just mediocre and okay. It’s nice to feel overwhelmed. Sometimes it’s important.

27:27 Brian Rose: Let’s talk about this book. It’s a great title.

27:30 Instrumental, a memoir of madness, medication and music. Your website is great because on the front page it has a cup of coffee with some pills floating around underneath it. I did get that. Why write the book now? Why write the book at all?

27:45 James Rhodes: I was asked. I was asked by Cannon Gate, who’s a publisher. I respect immensely. I love writing. I’ve written a lot for the press in the past for the Guardian, the Telegraph Spectator.

28:00 It’s a, and also it’s, it’s very easy to critic. I’m very, I have been very critical of the classical music, the industry in the past, and it’s very easy to criticize. And it’s, at times I feel like, some people say, well, it’s easy to criticize. What are the solutions? So I wanted to offer some ideas that I had for the industry and for musicians and for those wanting to get into classical music.

28:26 I wanted it to be a love letter to my son, who’s the greatest miracle in my life, and to my wife, Hattie, who just is astonishing. And it’s a love letter to music as well. So there were all these things I wanted to talk about. And they said, you know, it’s a memoir. They’d like a memoir.

28:48 And I thought, well, there’s no point just writing the good stuff, the easy stuff, the stuff that kind of makes me smile. It would seem just very disingenuous to do that. So I wanted to include the stuff that is not so easy and the stuff that is rarely talked about. This isn’t the first time I’ve talked about it. This has all been public domain for a long time.

29:12 Six, seven, eight years. I’ve talked about child abuse and self-harm and being in locked psychiatric wards and suicide attempts. I’ve made TV shows for Channel 4 where we’ve talked about that in quite a lot of detail. But this was the first time I was able to put it very clearly in my own words and in context. So I thought, why not?

29:41 I was only 38. It seemed quite young to write a memoir. But they asked and I felt like a great opportunity to say, listen to this music. I mean, if nothing else, just listen to this music. I don’t care if you don’t buy the book.

29:54 Listen to the playlist. But everything else was in there. And it needs to be talked about. You can’t open a paper nowadays without seeing more just vile revelations of the rape of children on an epidemic level, historical or current. This country has the highest incidence of self-harm in Europe.

30:22 People are just slicing their fucking arms up left, right and center. And it’s not just skinny teenage girls. They’re bankers and grandparents and, you know, successful people and mums. And it’s important to talk about that. It’s so misunderstood.

30:38 If you cut yourself, it’s not because you want to kill yourself. It’s not an indicator of suicidal ideation. It’s so much. It’s the opposite of that. It’s a coping mechanism.

30:47 It’s a way of controlling the pain and releasing endorphins and getting through the day. And it was the hardest addiction for me to stop. And I wanted to be brave enough to put my name and face to it because I don’t do it anymore. And I’ve come out the other side and actually I’m not just existing. I’m thriving.

31:09 I’m doing pretty well. So, you know what? You can go through five years of getting absolutely just brutally raped. You can end up trying to kill yourself. You can end up with all kinds of drug addiction issues and self-harming and just really, I mean, levels of depression and that are almost unsurvivable.

31:31 And actually you can come out the other end and music played a big part in that and love played a big part in that and the kindness of strangers played a massive part in that. Kindness is the most underrated and valuable thing that we have. And it’s got to the point now where people mistake kindness for flirtation. It’s so rare. You do something kind to someone and they’re like, what, do you want to fuck me?

31:55 I mean, really? That’s what’s happened. That breaks my heart. And so all of these things, this is a long answer to a very short question I wanted to put in a book. And I’ve done that.

32:06 And now it’s out. But it was a long, long journey to get it published.

32:11 Brian Rose: When you wrote that first draft and gave it to the publisher or maybe a close friend, was it as raw as it ended up being? Or does that something that evolved over time?

32:24 James Rhodes: No, it was pretty much there from the beginning.

32:27 I wrote most of it between kind of 3 a.m. and 9 a.m. Just up all night. Insomnia. Total insomnia.

32:34 But just get it out. Like lance in a boil. Just get it out. And I set myself a target of 2,000 words a day. And it ended up being 5,000 a day just because I just worked very quickly.

32:46 And they weren’t necessarily in the right order. It wasn’t necessarily any good, but I got it done. And it was kind of there. And then it was just a case of working with my editor and my manager and making sure it was the way I wanted it to be.

33:02 Brian Rose: Let’s talk about the child rape stuff because we’re going to have to.

33:06 And it’s also weird because it’s kind of topical in Britain right now. Whereas if you wrote this 10 years ago or 20 years ago, people might not have maybe even read it or understood it.

33:18 James Rhodes: Well, not just in Britain. I mean, in America. The Catholic Church.

33:22 Telling you this is the tip of the iceberg. I mean, this hasn’t even started yet. And that’s terrifying. But yeah, of course, here it’s just it’s everywhere. And Britain is trying to get its head around like because it’s a gripping with itself and the fact that it allowed these things to happen.

33:39 Brian Rose: It’s almost like looking in the mirror when we hear stories about what happened to you. And it sounds like it’s just only beginning. Like you said, starting to heal, starting to open up, starting to talk about it.

33:53 James Rhodes: There needs to be a momentous cultural shift about this stuff. And I look, I fully understand the reasons for not wanting to talk about it.

34:02 Why would you? Why would anyone want to open a paper with their conflicts in the morning and read about, you know, children being raped? I mean, it’s one of those things we just go, can’t I fast forward? I can’t do it. Even I just think I can’t.

34:20 But these are real people going through real things. And it’s everywhere. And it’s only by talking about it. Is there a chance that it will it will stop? And those who have been through it, who are lucky enough to survive, will have a shot at, I mean, not just justice, but healing, which is much more important, I think.

34:40 So it’s important to talk about the stuff that is not said.

34:43 Brian Rose: Are we having the right conversations about it right now in Britain? Or is it just kind of like, this headline comes out, this headline, it kind of gets pushed away.

34:52 James Rhodes: It’ll be a process. I think it’s going to take a while.

34:55 I think we are. I think there are, there’s a lot more awareness. I think what I know is, if what happened to me 35 years ago, was happening today, it would not have gone on for five years. It probably would have happened. But it would have got caught.

35:18 And there would have been a stop put to it. And that’s got to be seen as progress, right? I think things are harder today in a way too with the internet. And people sometimes tend to assume that looking at indecent images of children isn’t as bad in some way as actually physically abusing a child. But it’s exactly the same.

35:44 There’s no distinction at all between the two. You are facilitating a child being raped by looking. If there was no demand, it wouldn’t be going on. And just by looking, terrifies me. The one thing I’m grateful for is that to my knowledge, there weren’t photographs taken of me.

36:00 It was so long ago, well before the internet, digital cameras, any of that. But I know people who still now as adults, they know there are images of them as children circling around the world, having the most appalling things being done to them. Imagine what that must feel like, knowing that some guy in some flat in New York or the Philippines or Manchester is getting off to look at a picture of you 10 years ago. I mean, there’s a lot more that we need to do. And we are doing.

36:36 I’m filled with admiration for the way the police are handling things, for the way finally certain politicians are starting to handle things.

36:45 Brian Rose: I’m going to just quote you. It was an interview. I saw you talking about the child rape and you said, the toxic shame that does not finish, it somehow gets bigger when the abuse ends. And that’s what they don’t tell you.

36:58 There’s a ripple myriad of symptoms, the medications, the side effects, the legacy, the abuse. But you said it’s not abuse, it’s child rape.

37:08 James Rhodes: Yeah, abuse is, you know, tell the traffic warden to fuck off. I mean, that’s abuse. These words we use like molesting.

37:17 What is that? I mean, come on. Let’s call it what it is. I mean, really, you can’t… And the effects are extraordinary.

37:25 And you know, even worse in a way than the physical act of abuse is what they do to you while it’s going on, which is, they’re very good. They all say, in one way or another, the one consistent thing about child rape is they say you can’t talk about this. Don’t tell anyone about this. They have different ways of doing it, but that’s the message they give. And think about that for a sec.

37:50 What that means when there are other people there and you have to shake hands with that person, or you have to chat and act normally in front of them because they’re your priest or your uncle or your teacher. And they make you complicit in it. So it’s like you’re a partner in crime with them. Every time you don’t say something, every time you act normally, every time you pretend everything’s okay, it grows this sense of, I’m really in this now. We’re a team here and I, we’re bound by the secret.

38:21 And you know what? I’m making that happen. And that’s a, I mean, that’s a metric fuck-ton of responsibility to put on a five-year-old or a seven-year-old. I know kid shit. I mean, come on.

38:37 And then, of course, you hear these terrible stories of the kids who are brave enough to say this is happening and they’re told, no, it’s not. What are you talking about? This guy is like, he’s head of the church. Have you seen the charitable work he does? I mean, what does that do to a psyche of a child?

38:56 And I think that’s what I meant when I’m talking about the ripple effects is that it goes on for decades. I mean, I still know that the issues I have with everything from trust to sex to sudden noises to things on TV that, you know, triggers, you know, is the buzzword of our day along with mindfulness, trigger warnings, but they’re everywhere. And, you know, you learn to live with them and deal with them. But my point is that we shouldn’t have to. We shouldn’t have to learn to deal with that stuff for so long.

39:30 And yet we do because it still goes on.

39:33 Brian Rose: And this happened to you from like age six to ten. Yeah. I remember you saying in an interview that you still liked him. Yeah.

39:42 James Rhodes: Because it’s this very, like you said, strange relationship that is very hard to understand. It’s unless, I mean, of course, it’s hard to understand, but you’ve got to look at it through through a child’s eyes. You’ve got to think, okay, if I were a kid who wasn’t, who felt like he wasn’t particularly popular, didn’t have many friends, was quite isolated, was quite awkward, wasn’t very athletic, wasn’t very academic and always felt to learn even when he was in a crowd.

40:13 And then suddenly there’s a guy who seems to be eight foot tall and invincible and strong and everything you would want to be. And he’s giving you attention and he’s treating you differently and he’s giving you presence and he’s holding you back after class and opening his drawer in his desk where there’s something just for you. And you feel as a child, you know, this guy, you know, I’ll take it. The pain that what happened after that, it’s a price worth paying because I’m still, I’m special.

40:43 I mean, I know it breaks my heart to say it, but I can’t blame a five-year-old for thinking that way, a six-year-old, a seven-year-old. That’s the way we’re designed as humans. We want to feel loved and special and included. We still do as adults. Of course we do.

41:03 I mean, God, we put up with shit as adults from crazy girlfriends or crazy boyfriends because that’s better than being alone. And it’s not right, but we do it. We all do it. So, yeah, I did still like him, which, you know, now looking back, I mean, I don’t, I’m not angry about that fact, but I have some compassion for it and some understanding for it.

41:26 Brian Rose: I had the writer Jeff Thompson and here he’s a, you know, BAFTA winning screenwriter, but he also used to work the door and Coventry.

41:35 And, you know, he had an experience like this when he was younger and he was able to finally see that man and confront him many years later and was able to confront him like kind of like not in anger. But I don’t think you ever had that chance and do you ever think that you wish you could have confronted him or pressed charges or would that have not been?

41:52 James Rhodes: Well, he was charged. He was tracked down. He was arrested.

41:55 He was charged. And then he got sick. He had a stroke. He died before the case could go to trial, but I didn’t see him face to face. This was done by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service.

42:10 But no, is the short answer. I don’t. What would I say to the guy? You know, what is interesting is that on occasion, people have, not many, but on occasion, some people have thrown this idea at me of you’re only using this part of your backstory to flog albums and to get a bit of sympathy and attention. And I understand, you know, people say things like that in the comments section of interviews or online or on Twitter or whatever.

42:48 And that’s the world in which we live. And I always say to them, look, in 2009, I gave an interview with The Sunday Times and it was a big two page thing. And in one paragraph for a couple of lines, I talked about the fact that this happened when I was, it was the first time I talked about it in public. And a teacher who’d been at the school, who’d witnessed some of the effects of that abuse, she found me kind of hysterical, blood kind of coming down my legs. And she read this thing and she suddenly, you know, she knew who it was, she knew exactly what I was talking about, even though I didn’t mention the school or the teacher or whatever.

43:27 She came forward and she came to the police and she gave a statement. And with her statement as well, which corroborated what I’d said, they tracked this guy down. And at the time of his arrest, he was a part-time boxing coach for under 10 year old boys in his 80s. And so when people, occasionally, they say, oh, you’re just trying to, I say, I tell them that story and I say, would you rather, I had not said anything, this guy was now teaching your niece or nephew or grandson or son and getting up to God knows what with them.

43:57 Or would you rather, I did speak out and other people speak out as a result and they put a stop to it. It’s a no-brainer to me.

44:05 Brian Rose: You said that it even changed the way you think about sexuality. After that, he said, you remember you were with a girl one time on a date and you were like, oh God, we go have sex in the bathroom as if it was maybe a, do you want a cup of coffee?

44:19 James Rhodes: I mean, really, we were sitting there and then, what is it called?

44:23 My old Dutch, it’s a pancake place on the King’s Road. She was so pretty and I was so excited because it was like one of the first dates I’d been on. I was 15, 16, whatever. We have our thing and I’m like, so, why don’t we go fucking in the toilet? Like, I mean, and it never occurred to me.

44:39 There was anything wrong with that tool and the look on her face. So, yeah, of course, there’s all kinds of impact.

44:47 Brian Rose: Yeah. You said, and I’ll just probably quote you one more time. You said the impact rape makes on a person.

44:55 It’s like a stain that’s ever present. There’s reminders every day. Every time you take a shit, watch TV, see a child, glimpse of newspaper here, the news, you know, have sex, wank, drink something unexpectedly hot, take a big gulp, cough, or choke. It’s just always there.

45:13 James Rhodes: Yeah, it’s always there.

45:15 I mean, that’s just the way it is. And it hasn’t seen, it hasn’t gone away. That’s the thing. I think sometimes we have an expectation that things will go away once the actual, you know, the physical act stops, then you’re okay. It’s done.

45:33 But that’s not my experience. And certainly it’s not the experience of a lot of other people I know who’ve been through some of the things. However, there is an amazing capacity that we have in here and in here

45:48 To not kind of get rid of that, but to kind of almost embrace it and assimilate it. And, you know, I look at the life I live now and what I do for my job and how I act with my friends and my marriage and my son. And I think, really, this is a good life. This is a good thing. This was not how I envisaged it going.

46:16 This is really a bonus. Didn’t think I was capable of it. That was another thing. When I became a father, like the relief of knowing finally that I really understood what people had said, that love you experience when you become a father, that unconditional. I never really thought, oh, you know, I’m sure for them.

46:44 And then suddenly out comes this kid and you hold it and you’re like, oh my God, that’s what it is. I would walk under a bus without hesitation, like as natural as breathing, to stop a hair on his head being hurt. It’s just like the switch went on and I thought, oh, thank God, I’m capable of it. I’m not some psychopath. So there are lots of things now that, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have, it doesn’t ruin lives.

47:09 It hasn’t ruined my life. It’s, you know, it’s not ideal. But you know, the thing about the book too is that it’s really very, very, very seriously, not a misery memoir. It’s not one of those just unremittingly bleak. It’s not.

47:25 It’s a book about music and love and things that are shiny and lovely and enhancing. And I think that’s an important thing to talk about. This stuff is a small percentage of the whole thing.

47:39 Brian Rose: And yet this book was almost not published. Yeah.

47:43 And the Supreme Court almost kept it from being published. Did you ever in your wildest dreams think that could happen when you started writing?

47:52 James Rhodes: No, fuck no. I mean, we’re in Britain. We don’t ban books in this country.

47:56 What the fuck? I mean, I’m not inciting terrorism or and even if I was, it still wouldn’t have been banned. I mean, the kicker was it wasn’t just the book that was trying was injunctive. They were after a gagging order that would stop me writing or speaking in any medium anywhere in the world about mental illness, self-harm, treatment of mental illness, sexual abuse, suicide attempts. Like I could not tweet I’m off to see my shrink without the threat of imprisonment.

48:29 Can you imagine? It was like, I mean, a bunch of judges sitting there and saying, Mr. Rhodes, I’m sorry, you’re past, you’re not entitled to it. It does not exist. You can’t talk about it.

48:42 That’s the end of. Which was just, I mean, astonishing. So it never occurred to me for a minute that that would happen. But, you know, it did. And initially in the High Court, we won.

48:57 And I’ve got to say, we won convincingly and quickly and with real, you know, strength from the judge, Mr. Justice Bean, who I love, who was funny at the end of the second day. The opposing counsel, the opposing QC, you know, full of, you know, pomp and drama. He said something like, Your Honor, I’m sure you’ll want to take some time to think about. It’s a very complicated case.

49:22 And the judge just said, actually, no. He’s like, sit down. Like there’s no, of course, I don’t need to take any time. What are you thinking? Of course, the book should go ahead.

49:29 This should never have come before me. And I thought, this is great. And then in kind of all my sensational British style, I mean, you couldn’t make this shit up. They were granted an appeal based on a tort from 1897 where someone in a pub in East London played a practical joke that went wrong. And I mean, it’s never been used in publishing, hasn’t been used in this country for, you know, a century.

49:57 And I think they thought, oh, this will be interesting to talk about at the Garrett Club and, you know, and that’s why it made headlines everywhere all around. I mean, it was all anonymized. No one could know it was me. I wasn’t allowed to mention anything about this. The book was put on hold.

50:10 It was just sitting in a warehouse. And then they won the appeal and the court of appeals said it needed to go to trial.

50:20 Brian Rose: And this is all happening because your son’s mother didn’t want my ex-wife. Yeah, her know about these things. Is that what happens for this?

50:28 James Rhodes: There were no ground. There was no precedent for it.

50:31 But my ex-wife who lives in another country where her reasoning was, he’s not going to read the book because it’s an adult book. But extracts may appear on the internet, may be mentioned in reviews. He may Google his dad and see certain things about his past, which would cause him catastrophic psychological harm. Of course, a parent has to do everything they can to protect their child. I mean, of course they do.

51:03 I mean, but this is a parenting thing. She wouldn’t take the makers of Grand Theft Auto to court to pull the game from everywhere in the world because he wanted to play Grand Theft Auto. You’d say, I’m sorry. When you’re 18, you do what you want. But you’re not.

51:17 It’s like you’re 12. You do what I say. End up. I know dad’s written a book. When you’re 18, you can read it.

51:26 He’s written it, you know, for his fans and for a few friends. If you want to ask any questions about what’s in it, let’s talk about it. What you don’t do is say, you know what? I’m going to pursue for 18 months, spend $2 million in legal fees, both sides of the Atlantic, to try and pull a book and gag this guy from speaking about his past. On the off chance, someone somewhere may write on the internet he was raped as a child and my son will see it and his head will explode because he won’t.

51:55 And I mean, he won’t care. Even if he saw the book, he’d giggle at the word fuck and then he’d go and play his Xbox. I mean, really, it’s that simple. The lesson for me is we don’t say to children, we don’t talk about this. Uh-uh.

52:09 No, you know that stuff you hear about in school? We don’t talk about it. A much, much, much more valuable lesson for me is to say, look, this isn’t easy to hear, but that stuff you learn about in school, the stuff you see on the news. Something like that happened to dad when he was younger, and he didn’t talk about it at the time. And in a way, even though it felt safer to not talk about it, it made things worse.

52:35 And it was only when he became an adult and he went to hospital and he saw a doctor who could help with his head, the damage it had caused, he came out the other side and now look, look at how well he’s doing. Isn’t that great? This terrible thing happened and now he’s doing so well and he’s a great dad. And that’s a message I would give rather than shh, under the carpet, don’t talk about it. So yeah, that was her argument and it was even more bizarre because she’s a writer herself.

53:02 So another writer trying to ban a writer’s book, it just didn’t add up.

53:06 Brian Rose: And this is just stressing you out. You said before we started rolling camera that like this is the insomnia.

53:12 James Rhodes: It almost killed me. I mean, you can’t imagine.

53:14 Brian Rose: You’re worried about financial issues.

53:16 James Rhodes: I mean, oh God, it was a charging order about to be placed on my house. If I’d lost, I would have lost the house. I’d have gone bankrupt. I wouldn’t, I mean, really the figures they’re talking about are so astronomical.

53:27 Brian Rose: It’s damages. It’s like suing for damages.

53:29 James Rhodes: No, it wasn’t damages. It was simply the amount of lawyers involved. Publishers had their lawyer.

53:34 I had my lawyer. She had her lawyers. It was, you know, one and a half million pounds in legal costs. And that was before it had even got to trial. If we’d lost in the Supreme Court, it would have gone to trial.

53:44 Would have been well over two million pounds. For what?

53:50 And also, of course, it’s the personal nature of it. This isn’t me being investigated for, you know, VAT fraud, which is, you know, really annoying and very stressful, but it’s not personal. This is, you know, in effect, someone at the very highest level of power, you know, in the British legal system saying, actually, you’re trying to hurt your own child. The material in this book is toxic and shouldn’t, I don’t think see the light of day, needs to go to trial because I think you’re trying to hurt your child.

54:19 And by the mere fact that you’re talking about what was done to you as a child, not having it. And so in the meantime, for the next few months, not a word. You can’t talk about it in interviews. You can’t talk about it online. You can’t talk about it anywhere.

54:33 The only thing you can do is talk about it with your close personal friends in private. That to me is astonishing. So you live under that amount of pressure for 14 months, 15 months, 16 months, the amounts of money involved growing up, the entire first year of my marriage taken up with this, getting emails every day. I mean, thousands of emails, accusing me, the most important thing.

54:57 Brian Rose: You have a lot of very supportive, well-known friends, Stephen Fry, Darren Brown, Benedict Cumberbatch.

55:03 Yes.

55:03 Brian Rose: Which I think you said with Benedict, what really lights him up is someone being bullied like this.

55:11 James Rhodes: Him and Stephen, actually, it’s this sense of injustice. And I, of course, you start to doubt yourself. I started thinking six months in, have I just got this wrong?

55:23 Because every time I had a draft, I would send it to three or four people, my manager, my editor, the head of Cannon Gate, best friend, all of whom are parents. And every time I would send the draft, I would say, as usual, when you’re reading this, please think of my son. If there’s anything in here that I’ve missed, because I’m very close with it, you think he might get really tell me and I’ll pull it. Because obviously, he may well read the book when he’s an adult.

55:49 And I don’t want him reading stuff that is unnecessary. I mean, if it’s important, fair enough, I get that. And not once did they say, actually, I think you should pull it. It was all, but I started doubting myself. So I’m lucky enough to have friends who are kind of well known enough to help in certain things.

56:15 And I mean, I remember speaking to Stephen, who was in Los Angeles and telling him, and he was, I could hear him on the phone almost sobbing with anger. I mean, shaking with anger that this was going on. And Ben as well, he was just, I mean, he showed up at the Supreme Court. I had no idea he was coming when the verdict came in. He was there.

56:39 And I just broke down in tears because it was a unanimous verdict. They changed the law. They tightened up the law to make sure this couldn’t happen again. They were so horrified that this has got so far. The High Court, the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court.

56:54 So yeah, I’m very lucky. But you know what? That really concerns me. It really concerns me that if it took me with, you know, a few A-list celebrity friends and a few hundred grand in the bank and a team of some of the best lawyers in the world and a team of some of the best psychiatrists in the world and friends and an amazing wife. It took me with all of that, that much time and energy and money to get a book about music and child rape published.

57:24 What the hell kind of chance does someone have from Rotherham or one of the Jimmy Savile victims or any one of the thousands of others who are just backed into this terrible silent corner? What chance do they have?

57:38 Brian Rose: Well, a better chance now because this said a good precedent. And I read the article when I was preparing for you. I was just like, this happening in this day and age in this country.

57:50 James Rhodes: And the precedent. I mean that. That’s a terrifying thing. I mean, it literally got to the point where had this even got to trial, you could have some mum in Texas calling up the film studio saying that Amy Winehouse documentary you’re just about to release tomorrow kind of glamorizes alcoholism because she drinks a lot. And I think my son, he’s a huge Amy Winehouse fan.

58:12 I think he might watch this documentary and he might just start drinking and I’m not having that and they would have precedent to pull the film internationally. Can you imagine? Terrifying. I mean, I just, I think that’s why so many people in the legal community and in the press were just going, what the fuck is going on here? How has this been given an appeal?

58:37 It was, yeah, it was pretty astonishing.

58:40 Brian Rose: Let me ask you about some of the other parts of the book. You went 10 years without playing music. Yeah. Which from the brief time I’ve known you seems like, I wouldn’t recommend that.

58:55 James Rhodes: I listened to it a lot. I went to a lot of concerts, but no, I didn’t play. I think when I was, I was a very teenagey kid at 18, 19. I thought, you know what? If I’m not going to be a concert pianist, I’m just not going to play.

59:11 Fuck it. I ended up in my first psychiatric ward at 19. I went from there to work in Burger King in Paris. I learned French, I fucked around, stayed clean. And then I did a degree in psychology and then I went into the city and I just thought, you know, let’s leave the piano and music represented everything that is good about life.

59:37 It was like, you know, when you see a girl and you just think it’s just not a chance. I mean, so far out of my league, it’s just not, it’s for other people. Or like when you wander around these beautiful buildings in Regent’s Park or anything. They’re amazing, but they belong to other people. I just thought, I’m not going to have that life.

59:53 I can’t do it. So forget about it. Focus on other things. Focus on money. That’ll do it.

1:00:00 Went into the city. Just the most, it’s the one thing in the book I’m most embarrassed about. I mean, really, fuck everything else that they try to, you know, get banned. It’s the fact I worked in the city.

1:00:11 Brian Rose: You know, like, if that’s your thing and you, I mean, it’s just, It’s like the amount of time you put in 10 years, I bet you were really good in the city.

1:00:19 James Rhodes: I was great in the city. I was amazing. Of course I was. I was a proper miniature little psychopath. Just, but I mean, ultimately it’s just, you know what happened is I became a dad and I thought, what is going to happen in 10 years when this amazing, miraculous kid looks at me and goes, dad, I don’t get it.

1:00:45 All you do is talk about a piano. Every free moment you have, you’re listening to piano music. You’re going to concerts. You’re completely, why aren’t you doing this as a job? You hate your job.

1:00:59 What am I going to say to him? Well, son, you got mortgages to pay. You got to buy shit you don’t need. You got to suck it up. You got to do a job you hate.

1:01:06 You got to shit yourself, almost literally sometimes, on the tube going into work at seven in the morning because you’re so anxious. You just, that’s what you got to do. I mean, no, I’m not. No, there comes a point when you’re like, you know what? Enough is enough.

1:01:23 Brian Rose: So you pull a city move and send a bottle of champagne to the Verona.

1:01:27 James Rhodes: Yeah, to some agent who looks after the greatest living concert pianist. I thought, aim high, right? So I send them a bottle of Krug.

1:01:34 Brian Rose: Such a city move.

1:01:35 James Rhodes: I know, right? It totally worked. And I was like, let’s open up an agency together because I still didn’t think I’d be a concert pianist. I thought, you know, I’d get a bit close. I’d live vicariously.

1:01:46 I’d be an agent. And I just, I travel with the musician and I just, I wouldn’t have the stress of performing on stage, but I could just watch and soak it up and it would just be the best thing ever. So I get to Italy. He agrees. We figure out, we’ll each chuck in, you know, 30,000 euros.

1:02:01 We’d open a London office.

1:02:03 Brian Rose: Me, yeah.

1:02:03 James Rhodes: Yeah, 28, 29. So he has a piano there and he says, do you play? And I said no, but, you know, I used to when I was a kid and I was all right when I was a kid.

1:02:14 I wasn’t great. But I was so enthusiastic. I was playing shit way, you know, beyond what, you know, I should have been doing by rights. And he says, well, why don’t you play me something? So I was like, all right.

1:02:26 You know, I was a bit, I was high on pasta. You made fresh pasta. There’s Italian pasta. I was a little bit pasta. Pasta drunk.

1:02:34 So I sit down and I play this Chopin piece. And then I like, I turn around and he’s looking at me just like, and he just says, you know, what are you doing? He’s like, you’re not going to be an agent. He said, you’re going to, you’re going to study with my friend Edo. He lives around the corner.

1:02:54 He’s the best teacher in Italy. You’re going to come every month. You’re going to spend five days with him. You’re going to give it a couple of years and you’re going to do everything you can to be a concert pianist. And I don’t know if you’ll succeed, but in 20 years of doing this, I haven’t heard someone play the piano that well who is not a professional pianist.

1:03:11 And then he got all his, he started calling out all his friends and like dragging me around like some performing monkey like to play to all of them. And that’s what I did.

1:03:19 Brian Rose: What did you make of all this?

1:03:21 James Rhodes: I was, you know what? Honestly, I was angry.

1:03:23 I was really angry. I thought, fuck, there’s my, I mean, I don’t have an excuse. It was so easy to go. It’s been 10 years. Of course I can’t.

1:03:31 It’s like someone leaving school at 15 with no qualifications and at 45 going, you know what? I’m going to be a brain surgeon and enrolling at Columbia. And actually, I have a friend who did exactly that. He was from a Welsh mining village and he left school at 15. And by 16, he was playing Madison Square Gardens with a huge rock band back in the 70s, early 80s, covered in tattoos.

1:03:56 And then he hits 40 and he goes, ah, done. I want to be a surgeon. Puts himself in Columbia Med School. It was twice the age of everyone who finishes in the top five percent. Now he’s a bloody doctor.

1:04:06 It’s the most amazing thing ever. So it can be done. And so I was angry. I thought, you know, Christ, I can’t really be a victim anymore. And then I got really excited and I thought, just because this guy, Edo, this teacher was astonishing and he’s so good.

1:04:24 And he got me playing things that, I mean, I would listen to as a kid and just fantasize about playing. But just it was an impossibility. It was like someone who’d always wanted to run, you know, the sub 10 second 100 meters, just thinking it never happened. But I think about it every day. And then suddenly he does it and it opened the door and I thought, my God, I can play these pieces.

1:04:46 It was astonishing. And it took five years. And then I had a massive breakdown and spent nine months in various institutions. And then after that, it was almost like, you know, you know, my snakes, they kind of shed their skin. It was like, that’s kind of what happened.

1:05:05 The old life just, it was just ripped out. And I met my manager and I met Hattie, my wife. And I had the first album and a few concerts and things built from there. And that was in, that was in 2009, 2008, 2009, when all that started to happen.

1:05:26 Brian Rose: Did the music save you or was it not as simple as that story?

1:05:31 James Rhodes: Yeah, I think I mean, it sounds so melodramatic, doesn’t it? Yeah, I think it did. But I don’t think that’s particularly unique. I mean, I really, I think really music kind of saves all of us, doesn’t it? I mean, it really does.

1:05:49 It’s the one consistent thing that every teenager in the world is obsessed by. It’s the one thing that every movie utilises, every commercial utilises. I mean, it’s everywhere. Yeah, it saved me. It’s a double-edged thing doing it as a career though, because I’ll go 36 hours sometimes without saying a word out loud.

1:06:11 I’m just there at a piano, just, and then suddenly I’m on stage for two hours, like terror, and then I’m back on my own. If someone’s slightly wobbly, mentally to begin with, it’s not necessarily the most kind of balancing career. But then, you know, what is? Banking, you know? I know I’d feel super anxious and incredibly stressed in any job.

1:06:37 I mean, I went mental working in Burger King. It doesn’t matter. I was a busboy at the Chicago Pizza Pie Factory on a Champs-Élysées, which had a surprising number of American people eating that. You think, really? What are you doing here in Paris?

1:06:50 What’s wrong with you? And I was incredibly stressed at that too, so I think that’s just the way I’m wired.

1:06:55 Brian Rose: What do you think makes you a great pianist? And why do people respond so much to you? You said once about your own music that you play the piano, perhaps as well as a bunch of music college undergraduates, but certainly no better.

1:07:07 Brian Rose: You said that about yourself. Yeah. So why do people respond to you?

1:07:15 James Rhodes: Thank you for saying that. I’m a great pianist, I think. I guess you’d have to ask them. I mean, all I know is that my audiences are amazing. I mean, they’re generous and they’re kind and probably 60, 70 percent of them have never been to a classical concert before, which is, I mean, just the best thing ever.

1:07:36 And they range from eight years old to 80 and the median age in their kind of early 20s, mid-20s. And it just feels very… It just feels good. It feels immersive and inclusive and accessible, and all the things music should be. So I don’t know, maybe they respond to the fact that I’m exactly the same on stage as I am.

1:08:06 If I were hanging out with them at a Starbucks, having a cappuccino, it’s like… Because other concerts, I go and there’ll always be an audience for that and I love that. I’ll be one of them. But the guy wearing this ridiculous outfit comes on and he scowls and he sits and he plays and he scowls and then he fucks off home. And I just…

1:08:25 I go to that and I think, oh, okay, it’s not.

1:08:28 Brian Rose: I’m guessing the audience…

1:08:30 James Rhodes: And that’s why I’ve avoided a classical music concert venue for 10 years.

1:08:34 Brian Rose: And I’m guessing that people come in and they respond to your passion that you feel in the very immediate moment for that piece of music and they feel the way that you love it, the way that you’re surprised by it and fascinated by it and then you draw that into that.

1:08:51 James Rhodes: I hope so.

1:08:52 I hope so because it’s like storytelling, isn’t it? In a way. And every single person will hear… Will have a different story going on in their head where they hear the piece and the lights go down and it’s… I mean, I’ve got a bunch of concerts coming up from everywhere from the Barbican to theaters to all kinds of different venues.

1:09:14 I played in tents in fields and the jazz cafe. I’ll play anywhere. And I love that idea that taking music into places where you wouldn’t normally expect it and introducing the pieces from the stage and it’s the same with the albums. All the albums I’ve done, they’re not just one composer. They all have different composers and different…

1:09:36 Because someone may just really not deal with Bach particularly well but the Chopin they love. And so the new albums, it’s compilation albums which are called the Mix Tape where it’s got some of my favorite… kind of go-to pieces at four in the morning where it’s just like… These are the pieces I listen to and play and practice and there’s something for everyone and I like that idea. I like the idea of going out on stage and not being all like, look at me, but going, listen to this.

1:10:08 Holy shit, listen to this. Listen to what Chopin wrote. This guy who was this just musical freak from this tiny little bum fuck village outside of Warsaw that no one had ever heard of, who was a bit of an asshole, a single-handedly revolutionized piano playing forever. There’s not another composer about whom one can say 98% of everything he wrote is still played all around the world.

1:10:38 Something else. 200 years later, bang. It’s astonishing. There’s a reason for that.

1:10:44 Brian Rose: Let me rewind your story just a bit.

1:10:47 You had five years of training in Verona, right? Yeah. Of all play systems. Yeah, I know, right. But you said, but you still had some kind of demons and some issues you still had to deal with and the hospital, the suicide attempt with the aerial cord, that kind of piece.

1:11:04 I mean, we’re looking back on it now. Are those things you still needed to process? Do you think those were things?

1:11:09 James Rhodes: Yeah. And you know what?

1:11:10 I think I’ve run as far and as fast away from my past as I could all of my life. And I’ve done everything I can to distract from it and to not look at it and to not deal with it. And then the minute I stopped doing that, the minute I lost a job in the city and just had some time, I started doing what I loved and focusing on something that was, you know, I mean, music, music, music. It just somehow, it’s like I stopped and everything just went bang, straight into the back of me.

1:11:46 It was inevitable. You know, it was going to happen at some point. And what they don’t tell you, this is the kicker. When you’ve gone through shit like that as a child and you become a parent, they don’t tell you what happens when your kid turns the age you were, when the abuse started or starts to approach that age. And what happens in the vast majority of cases is that your brain just goes, looks at your child at the size of it, at the perfection of it, the miracle of it.

1:12:22 And it just goes, I just can’t process that someone would do those things to something like that. And it just breaks into, and that was what happened. And it comes flooding back to you. Fuck me. I just, I was on the floor.

1:12:34 I couldn’t, I just couldn’t convert. Just that reality suddenly became too much. And I figured you just, you know, the only way out is to die. It’s the only, it’s the most valid and a totally rational position. And so then began the, you know, the process through that and through the psych wards and the insane amount of medication, some of which is amazing, some of which was horrific and just trying to stay alive and that takes a while.

1:13:10 It’s an ongoing thing. But like I said, then, you know, you come out the other side and start to rebuild and actually I’ve never had it so good.

1:13:19 Brian Rose: What’s your relationship like with medication? Because you must have had all sorts of sorts.

1:13:24 James Rhodes: I’m not on, I’m not on anything consistently now, which is either really startling and scary or really good.

1:13:31 I haven’t decided yet. I think I’ve been on pretty much everything. It’s tricky because I can’t, so many side effects of medication is memory loss. And I can’t do that. I can’t go on stage with 100,000 notes to perform from memory.

1:13:47 And I just, it’s too, it’s so, you know, things like Klonopin, I can’t, I can’t tell you. I love it. Oh my God, that shit’s amazing. But I would be in hospital and I would go up to the same person and introduce myself. Hey, I’m James.

1:14:03 And he’d be like, we’ve done this for every day for the last four days. We’ve like taught for two hours a day. It’s like, you know everything about me. What are you doing? And I would have no recollection at all.

1:14:13 And there’s so many side effects. I mean, sexually, and I mean, scratching and not sleeping and hearing voices and hallucinating and sweating and stomach cramps. And I just, it’s trial and error. And I’ve been on all of it. Some of them have been good.

1:14:32 Seracol is pretty good. Fluoxetine, disaster. Coming off some of these things. Just, oh my God. Worst thing ever.

1:14:43 And so you know what? I’m just, I’m good enough. I’m not going to risk it. Occasionally, I’ll take a Xanax if I just have to sleep. If I just have to.

1:14:51 If it’s been five nights where I’ve been up till four in the morning and I just, I have a concert and I have to sleep. And that’s it. But I have a great psychiatrist. Billy, he’s lovely. And I know that if I need to, I wouldn’t hesitate to take meds if I really needed to.

1:15:08 Because the alternative is to die. And I just, I mean, there’s no, of course you take what the doctor says. But if I can avoid it and avoid the fog and the side effects, which are just unilaterally unpleasant, then I’d like to.

1:15:23 Brian Rose: Because it’s not like you’re, I mean, you are a writer obviously, but you perform music on stage. And so there’s nowhere to hide.

1:15:31 It’s not like you can cut an album when you’re ready or write when you’re ready.

1:15:35 James Rhodes: I wish.

1:15:36 Brian Rose: So that’s a lot of, I mean, that’s a lot of pressure.

1:15:39 James Rhodes: Yeah. But, you know, again, I’d feel the same pressure with anything that I do.

1:15:43 Yeah, really. Absolutely. Christ, man, flame grow those whoppers, man. I’d be like fucking so tense. Just had to be done right.

1:15:53 And it’s just the way I am.

1:15:55 Brian Rose: What’s a typical day in the life of James Rhodes? Like, I mean, how much of it is not sleeping? Is it creating, recording, you know, performing? What is it?

1:16:07 Brian Rose: What does it feel like?

1:16:09 James Rhodes: So it depends on what’s going on. If I’m in the middle of a tour or if I’m filming something, a TV show, or if I’m writing. I mean, at the moment, I’m kind of mid tour. So I’m up usually around seven, eight o’clock.

1:16:27 Wife is amazing. It’s like this fresh coffee. She makes me smoothies in the morning. I have a wife who makes me smoothie, like fresh fucking smoothies. Can you imagine?

1:16:37 I have this amazing smoothie because otherwise I won’t eat. And then I sit at the piano and I do three, four hours, which is such a luxury. It’s the best thing ever. It’s like, imagine your iPhone dropping down to kind of three percent and then you plug it in the wall and it’s just, it’s like that. I’m just like,

1:16:59 Brian Rose: It rejuvenates you playing.

1:17:01 James Rhodes: Oh, it’s just the best thing.

1:17:03 Brian Rose: And that’s practicing.

1:17:04 James Rhodes: Practicing. Getting ready for the concert that’s coming up.

1:17:08 And then I’ll come home, hang out with Hattie, cook me something lovely for dinner. I offer to cook and very sensibly, she politely says no. And then we go to bed and every time we go to bed, she looks at me and she says, wake me up in the night. If you want to have a cup of tea. And that to me is what marriage is just fucking all about, right?

1:17:39 It’s the only thing worse than being terrified at three in the morning is being terrified at three in the morning alone. Like really when this is and time just, time disappears and this is the frustrating thing. It’ll be 10 o’clock at night, lights out and I’m like, I’m exhausted. Oh, thank God it’s 10. I don’t have to be up till eight.

1:17:56 I can get 10 hours sleep. Then you look at the watch and it’s like 1 a.m. Oh my God, I’m not going to sleep now. And even if I didn’t, I’m only going to get seven hours and that’s not long enough. And then it’s 3 a.m.

1:18:07 And you think, oh Christ. Then at 4.30, you think what’s the point? I might as well get up. And that’s when occasionally I’ll just look at her and I’ll give her a little product and she’ll paddle next door and she’ll say, you know what? It’s okay.

1:18:18 You’re not going to die. Everything is up. I just find that so amazingly brilliant. I love that. And then sometimes it’ll be a concert day and I’ll get to the venue and I’ll warm up and I’ll wait backstage and the house will fill up and I’ll go and I’ll do my thing and then there’ll be a signing and I’ll meet these amazing people who are so kind.

1:18:39 They form this queue and they come up and they say lovely things and they take pictures and they buy the book or the album and say nice things and then I’ll jump on a train and come home and…

1:18:51 Brian Rose: Do you get nervous before you?

1:18:53 James Rhodes: Yeah, of course. Of course I do. It’s mainly, it’s that old thing of, you know, what if you forget everything and you’re there on the stage.

1:19:02 It’s that old thing that’s like kind of, you know, you’re being in 5th Avenue naked. It’s like, you know, the nightmare that you have and like, oh my god. It’s like it’s really cold. I’m sorry. It’s not normally this small but it’s that kind of fear of exposure.

1:19:16 Brian Rose: Has that ever happened?

1:19:17 James Rhodes: No. It doesn’t stop me worrying about it. It’s like…

1:19:20 Brian Rose: Dude, once you start playing, do you just, do you get in that zone?

1:19:24 James Rhodes: Yeah. I mean, without signing like a dick, you know, let me tell you about my creative process. But you do, you know, time disappears in a good way. All of those things that mindfulness, awful word, god promises us.

1:19:40 Brian Rose: And you practice mindfulness, don’t you?

1:19:43 James Rhodes: Yeah, I do. Only because it really works. So popular. No, it works. I’ll try anything if it works.

1:19:52 And it really does. But yeah, I mean, if I’m at the piano and I’m there in the moment, just listening and playing and focusing, there’s nothing better in the world. And then, you know, the nerves disappear and it’s all about, like I said earlier, it’s all about listen to this. Not listen to me. I, it’s really important.

1:20:13 Listen to this. Listen to this. Oh my god, this piece. Fuck. Add something else.

1:20:20 Brian Rose: What’s the big thing on the horizon for you? I mean, if I watch you now, you know, you’re kind of bringing classical music back to the people in a way. I know you’ve probably heard that before and that’s a generalization, but you are, with your book, you know, you’re really opening people’s minds, you know, to so many things. You know, now the book has the Spotify piece. You know, you’re on television.

1:20:41 You know, you do a lot of great television as well. You write Telegraph Guardian. What, you know, what’s next? And does it mean that those Americans are involved? Is that, is that a market that you look at sometimes and you’re thinking, I need to go see what’s happening.

1:21:00 James Rhodes: Oh, I’d love to tour America properly. I really just, I mean, if nothing else, but half and half. That shit’s amazing. Oh my god, it’s so good. Yes.

1:21:12 Sorry, half and half. Yeah, I love America. I’d love to tour that. What’s next is just, I mean, I hope more of the same, but just slightly improved from a personal level, just playing slightly better, writing slightly better, husbanding slightly better, feeling slightly prouder of myself. I don’t know, just being a slightly better human being.

1:21:38 I’m, you know, maybe sleeping a bit more.

1:21:41 Brian Rose: What keeps you up at night?

1:21:43 James Rhodes: I can’t, I can’t tell you how much money, I would give pretty much everything I have if someone could guarantee me a way unmedicated to just get eight hours sleep at night. I don’t know, keeps me awake at night. I’m too embarrassed to tell you because it could be anything from the most trite, ridiculous things.

1:22:04 It just doesn’t matter. It’s like the body is saying, thank god we’re exhausted and then this fucking thing is like, uh-uh.

1:22:10 Brian Rose: Right. So it’s just an uncontrolled dialogue in your brain.

1:22:13 James Rhodes: But that’s the key word, uncontrolled.

1:22:15 And then I try and control it and the only way I know how to control it is music. So I play through all the pieces in my head, but then it’s not quite right and there’s so many pieces. So I finish one, I have to do another and I think, oh, Christ, what happened on this one? So I have to do that one and it’s, oh, it’s relentless. It’s like being in a six by four prison cell with, you know, 15 really, really angry people.

1:22:40 It just despise you and they’re all bigger than you and they will have a propensity for extraordinary levels of violence. And I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. So I’d like to sleep

1:22:51 Brian Rose: Do you worry about a relapse? Do you ever tell yourself, okay, I’ve had a good few years here, but there might be a point where you might go back to this and do you just tell yourself, it’s going to be okay. I got a great support group, so I know we can handle it.

1:23:06 James Rhodes: No, no, I don’t. I don’t think there’ll be a relapse. I worry that I’ll die. I’m not going back in hospital. Like, I couldn’t do it.

1:23:16 I mean, the options that you carry on and you try and live well or you die. I mean, that’s it. It’s and of course, I worry that that will. Yeah, but I think I’d be a fucking idiot to not worry about that, to just go. Yeah, nailed it.

1:23:34 It’s fine. Can you imagine? That’s the dangerous part when you Christ and then, you know, Hattie runs off with the yoga teacher and the book tanks. No one buys it. Album sales dry up manager moves on.

1:23:50 I mean, I better have something going for me better than, you know, I don’t worry. I’ve nailed it. I got it. I got to have that stuff, that support. So yeah, I worry that I won’t make it, but that’s that’s all right.

1:24:04 Brian Rose: Right. That’s normal anyways.

1:24:05 James Rhodes: I think so. Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything weird about that.

1:24:08 Brian Rose: I mentioned the Americans earlier.

1:24:09 What do you think is the, what do you think is the key to that market? Again, that they probably have a dysfunctional relationship with classical music.

1:24:16 James Rhodes: You mean you might argue Americans have no relationship with classical music.

1:24:20 Brian Rose: No, Christ. More Americans went to a classical concert last year than went to a ball game.

1:24:24 James Rhodes: I really fucking love that shit.

1:24:26 Brian Rose: This is perfect for you, this market.

1:24:29 James Rhodes: I think there’s probably this functional relationship with it. Just the same as over here.

1:24:36 But the idea of going to America, the Steinway, and playing Chopin and Rachmaninoff and Beethoven and…

1:24:43 Brian Rose: And Carnegie Hall or you know, doing a Nashville concert.

1:24:47 James Rhodes: Of course. I’ve just been to Nashville. Yeah, I’ll play in theaters.

1:24:52 James Rhodes: Carnegie, imagine that. I just… Carnegie Hall. I was in New York a few weeks ago and I actually went up to a policeman and said, can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall? I set him up.

1:25:04 I just queued it out right for him and instead of going practice and I thought we’d have a little… It was just like, yeah, go down two blocks. I was like, oh, come on! But I mean, Carnegie would be amazing. I just, I want to play.

1:25:17 I want to play anywhere. I love America. I love Americans. They’re friendly. It’s nice.

1:25:25 People, they seem to be friendly in America and my experience of it anyway. And music should be everywhere. It should be absolutely everywhere. And, you know, and if I can play a small role in helping achieve that, then God, aren’t I the lucky one? Really.

1:25:46 Brian Rose: Can I ask you a couple questions about how you finally were able to be successful in music? I know you were taking those lessons for five years, but was there anything that you finally changed about the way you practiced, the way you marketed yourself, the way you performed that gave you like that distinct difference of, wow, now I can do it. These success secrets are only available on the London Real Academy. Become a member and get access to live shows, exclusive courses, my webinars, bonus content, meetups, live events, an amazing community, and much, much more.

1:26:25 Brian Rose: Now back to the rest of the show. What makes you a good friend to some of these people you mentioned? Because they obviously take the time to talk to you.

1:26:37 James Rhodes: Yeah, they do.

1:26:38 Brian Rose: What makes you a good friend?

1:26:40 Brian Rose: I’m also wondering, is it because that sometimes you can be honest with them about what you think of is going on with them sometimes? Because I’m just wondering why people keep you in their circle. It must be because…

1:26:53 James Rhodes: I’ve wondered that all the time. No, I really do.

1:26:56 James Rhodes: I really do. I don’t know. They like me. They think I’m a decent guy. They like watching me play the piano.

1:27:06 They play my albums. They like hanging out. I make them laugh.

1:27:09 Brian Rose: You call things how they are, don’t you? That’s the first impression I got of you.

1:27:14 James Rhodes: I always call. But I don’t see the point in doing anything different.

1:27:17 Brian Rose: I know, but a lot of people don’t. And it’s not very British to do that.

1:27:20 James Rhodes: I guess not.

1:27:21 No, yeah, I do. And I get into trouble for that sometimes. But, you know, fair enough. But yeah, I do. I do.

1:27:32 Brian Rose: Maybe that’s quite refreshing, especially for some friends of mine who are kind of in the public eye and people don’t generally do that. It’s all, you know, you are Christ. You know, can I blow you with that? It’s just, you know, I think, actually, you know what? No, you’re being a total dick.

1:27:49 Stop it. Because we have, I hope…

1:27:52 James Rhodes: And they do. They do the same for me. I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve been speaking to a friend and they’ve just said, stop it.

1:28:02 I just, just stop talking. Can you hear yourself? I mean, you just sound like such an asshole. And they’re invariably right, you know.

1:28:11 Brian Rose: I always ask everyone that comes here and talks to me a few questions.

1:28:15 At the end, I want to ask you, if you could make a phone call, you know, to the 20-year-old James Rhodes. 20, so I guess maybe you’re in Paris. Maybe you come back.

1:28:24 James Rhodes: Yeah, I was just… I would just…

1:28:26 Yeah, I’d be just about there. Okay. I’d have just come out of hospital and, yeah.

1:28:33 Brian Rose: If you could call him and give him a piece of advice, what would you say to him?

1:28:40 James Rhodes: Oh, God.

1:28:41 That’s such a depressing question because it’s too late. Why say that? No, of course. If I knew now, I mean, of course, with hindsight, there’s so many things I’d have done differently.

1:29:01 I guess I’d just say, just hold tight. I promise you, just hold on. It will… You’ll get there in the end. That’s it.

1:29:10 It’ll get better. But no, it’ll get worse first. It’ll get really, really bad. And just when you think you can’t… And then it’ll get a bit worse.

1:29:16 And then it’ll get even worse. And then actually, you know what? You’re going to be golden. Just… You know, I guess I’d say, don’t miss it.

1:29:24 Don’t miss life. Don’t miss what’s going on. But then I just end up sounding like Deepak Chopra and I want to hang myself. So, I don’t know. Just stop being an asshole.

1:29:36 Be kind. Stop trying to fuck everything that moves because, you know, the answer isn’t there. Stop trying to chase money because the answer sure as shit isn’t there. Just be kind. Be kind, be kind, be kind.

1:29:49 I just… It’s the most important. And then everything will be all right, I think. Imagine if people divorced with kindness. Sound like Gwyneth Paltrow.

1:29:58 But honestly, god, I don’t think my ex-wife would have come after me and to the extent in which she came after me over this book, if we’d had a civil relationship.

1:30:08 Brian Rose: Right, because it was all really about the relationship.

1:30:12 James Rhodes: What I would give to have a civil… And naively, I thought we’d be one of those kind of happy divorce couples. Have a cup of tea, seeing anyone, and I just…

1:30:22 I got such a shock. I was just like, oh, wow. You won’t come in the house. You won’t have me in the house. You won’t answer the phone.

1:30:30 You won’t… I mean, I’m not knowing why. I don’t… Maybe I’m naive. I don’t know, but…

1:30:38 Brian Rose: Yeah. One thing I would hope you don’t tell your 20-year-old self is start music earlier. Because I have a funny feeling if I was speaking to you now and you had a 20-year career.

1:30:49 James Rhodes: Completely. God, if I’d gone to music college, I don’t think I’d have made it.

1:30:54 Brian Rose: And right now, and I just met you, it feels like… Really feels like you’re excited that you’re just getting started you feel like you’ve got so much to do and you’re not this jaded, pianist that is…

1:31:06 James Rhodes: You know what? Some music colleges, they actually have classes called competition playing, where they teach you how to play for competitions. So they teach you to play without much originality, without anything that will rock the boat nice and safe and that will get you through.

1:31:22 I mean, really… That says it all. I just like… I just blow my brains out now. I just think, come on.

1:31:30 Brian Rose: Yeah, heartbreaking. Yeah, I agree.

1:31:33 James Rhodes: But you know, it is genuinely, it’s never too late. I really believe that. With anything, with writing, with career changes, relationships, with whatever.

1:31:45 Brian Rose: Second part of that advice question is, what is the best advice you’ve ever received? Business, personal, musical, artistic.

1:32:00 James Rhodes: God.

1:32:00 Brian Rose: What happened in Verona? What did you learn there? Business-wise,

1:32:06 James Rhodes: I mean, piano-wise, the best advice I ever got without question was to practice carefully, practice in the right way. I guarantee you that you can accomplish and achieve more in one hour at the piano, practice in the right way, than you can in eight hours, just playing through shit. It’s extraordinary.

1:32:32 Brian Rose: Vince Lombardo used to say, he’d say, it’s not practice makes perfect, it’s perfect practice makes perfect.

1:32:40 James Rhodes: Yeah, it’s all about how you practice. And I had a teacher I had somehow had the key to that door for me and showed me how to, little tricks, little tiny things, little methods and things that, at the time, I just thought, how is this going to help? And you do it and suddenly it’s, holy shit. Oh my God!

1:33:02 Ah!

1:33:02 Brian Rose: That’s so good. Yeah. Last part of that, to the 20-year-old that’s out there listening to us, Morgan Burger King, some city, who wants to do what you do. Who wants to one day play music for people or make them change their views about what music really is.

1:33:22 Brian Rose: What advice do you give to them? What can they do? What should they do?

1:33:27 James Rhodes: Practice, avoid assholes. There’s more than enough success for everyone.

1:33:32 I hate this idea of, someone’s got lots of success so there’s less for me. Argh, I hate it. Just, yeah, just, I mean, play, play anywhere. Stick to what you think is true. Don’t play pieces you don’t like because you think you should be playing them.

1:33:49 Don’t perform with certain ways of performing because everyone else does it. Do what feels right for you. I mean, really, it’s that simple. Just, the world is filled with people who say, oh, you shouldn’t do that. You’ll never make it.

1:34:05 It’s not, you’re not good enough. Or you should have started 10 years ago. Or you can’t do that. And just smile and let them get on with it. But I think if you’re anything like I am, you don’t really have a choice.

1:34:16 You’ll do it anyway. So, let me know when you’re playing next because I’d love to come hear you. I guess is what I’d say.

1:34:23 Brian Rose: Well, I want to come hear you play. So, let me know when you’re doing that in London.

1:34:28 James Rhodes: For sure. I’d love to see it.

1:34:30 Brian Rose: The book is called Instrumental, A Memoir of Madness, Medication and Music. It comes with its own Spotify playlist. One track for each chapter, including one composed by you.

1:34:41 James Rhodes: Played by me.

1:34:42 Brian Rose: Played by you. Played by you. Thanks so much for being honest. It’s been lovely.

1:34:48 Brian Rose: Do you get, do you ever tire of talking about your story or is it still interesting to you?

1:34:55 James Rhodes: I get tired of talking about me. Just because, you know, there are many more interesting things to be talking about. But it’s nice chatting. I just like, I like talking.

1:35:08 I mean, I’m quite a lonely person, so it’s quite nice to sit in a chair and just talk shit with someone. So.

1:35:15 Brian Rose: Our tagline for the show is, it’s about the journey. Always has been.

1:35:19 James Rhodes: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more.

1:35:21 Brian Rose: It’s always crazy when one of our guests quotes that back to me before I end the show with it.

1:35:26 James Rhodes: Well, you know, to a rave, hopefully is often better than to a rave. It has to be about the journey. It’s, yeah. Otherwise you miss, you end up somewhere and you think, how do I get here?

1:35:37 I miss the fun stuff. Now I’m just a bit miserable.

1:35:40 Brian Rose: Are you constantly reminding yourself when you go on stage or you’re doing these things just to be like, okay, let’s enjoy this or is that something you’re good at?

1:35:48 James Rhodes: You’ve got to learn to enjoy it. It’s something I’m getting better at.

1:35:51 If you don’t enjoy it, you’re in real trouble. In real trouble. So I find things to enjoy about it. Simplest thing, like the fact that there’ll be a couple of Kit Kats in a banana backstage for me. There’s one particular person in the audience that night who’s going to be hearing this piece for the first time or I mean, lovely things.

1:36:13 And I just always look for things to enjoy.

1:36:15 Brian Rose: Right. Because if you’re not, then you do this for the wrong reasons. Totally. Right.

1:36:20 Brian Rose: James, thanks so much. I can’t wait to have you play. I’m going to bring my 11 year old and I’m just thinking of this concept of her falling in love with classical music or her hearing bolero for the first time while she’s not being sleep deprived. And you know what? Maybe she won’t call it classical music.

1:36:39 Maybe she’ll just call it music. Wouldn’t that be a fucking joy?

1:36:43 James Rhodes: Hate the phrase, classical music.

1:36:44 Brian Rose: I love that statement. I’m going to end on that.

1:36:47 Brian Rose: James, thanks for your time. Really bad day.

1:36:50 James Rhodes: Thank you. All the best. All the best now.

1:36:52 Brian Rose: Goodbye.