Terence McKenna famously recommended a “heroic dose” of psilocybin mushrooms: five dried grams, taken alone, in silent darkness. In this clip from Dennis McKenna’s 2015 London Real interview, Brian Rose asks Terence’s younger brother about dosage, and Dennis uses the question to correct one of the most common assumptions about mushrooms.
It’s a thoughtful eight minutes from one of the most respected figures in psychedelic research.
▶ Watch the full episode: Dennis McKenna – The Screaming Abyss
Five grams in the dark
Brian explains that Terence used to complain that many of his peers who talked about psychedelics had never taken large doses. Brian’s own first experience was shaped by Terence’s advice: alone, at home, in total darkness. When he weighed out what five grams looked like, he says he was terrified, and ended up taking a little over four. He also thanks Dennis for the mushroom growing guide the brothers published in the 1970s.
The big misconception
Dennis’s answer goes to the heart of how people treat mushrooms. Many assume they’re lightweight and recreational, while ayahuasca is the “real medicine” that takes you deep. “That’s a misunderstanding,” he says.
The confusion, he explains, comes from how easy mushrooms are to use at small doses. People take a gram or a gram and a half, go to a party and have a good time, and he has no problem with that. He even says it’s certainly better than drinking alcohol. But people who only ever take light doses may not realise that, if they push it, “the abyss will open up.”
At higher doses, he says, there’s nothing easy about mushrooms. In some ways they are even more outrageous than ayahuasca, a genuine shamanic, transforming experience. Nobody, he jokes, calls ayahuasca fun, because most people’s idea of fun isn’t throwing up. But mushrooms deserve the same respect, and “maybe a little fear would not be out of place.”
Set and setting
Brian says that, because his first experiences were ayahuasca ceremonies with a shaman, he approaches mushrooms the same way: planned, in the dark, alone, and with a healthy fear. Dennis approves, and returns to the principle he, Terence and many others have stressed for decades: set and setting.
Setting means making sure you’re safe and undisturbed: not on the freeway, maybe not at a rock concert, not where neighbours or the police will bother you, perhaps with a trusted partner nearby. Set is everything you bring: who you are, your mindset and your intention. Why are you doing this, and what do you hope to get out of it?
Terence’s reading list
He shares one piece of advice Terence gave him when they were young: don’t take LSD until you’ve read Carl Jung’s Psychology and Alchemy. Dennis didn’t follow it, but read the book later and understood why. It’s a good map, he says, for the ideas that come up during a psychedelic experience.
What to take from it
The message is about respect rather than dosage. A substance that feels casual at low doses can be overwhelming at higher ones, and preparation matters as much as the plant.
This clip is for information only and is not medical advice. Psilocybin is illegal in many countries, and psychedelics carry real psychological risks, especially for people with a personal or family history of mental illness.
Who is Dennis McKenna?
Dennis McKenna is an American ethnopharmacologist who has studied plant hallucinogens for more than 50 years, and the younger brother of the late writer Terence McKenna. His memoir, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, tells the story of their lives and explorations together.
In the full 2015 episode, he talks with Brian Rose about his brother, ayahuasca, psilocybin and the science of plant medicines. You can also watch his conversation about Terence: Dennis McKenna on Terence McKenna.
See everything Dennis McKenna has done with London Real on his guest page: Dennis McKenna on London Real.
More on London Real
Transcript
Transcript: Dennis McKenna – The Heroic Dose: Why Mushrooms Are No “Lighter” Than Ayahuasca
0:00 Brian Rose: Can I ask you about dosage? Terence used to talk about the heroic dose. At some points he would say that people who talked about psychedelics, his peers, had never taken any large doses. I’m guessing down in La Chorrera, since the supply was there, you had the opportunity to take large doses.
0:22 Dennis McKenna: We had large doses, absolutely.
0:25 Brian Rose: Thanks to you and your brother, I had my first psilocybin experience here in this loft. And thanks to Terence, the number five grams was in my ears. I was checking out dosages, and when I went to pile out what five grams looked like, I was terrified, because it’s a large quantity. Terence’s thought was large doses, very infrequently, in your house, alone, in total darkness: five grams. I couldn’t get to five; I think it was 4.2 or 4.3. It’s also thanks to you brothers that we have the grower’s guide, so thank you for that. How do you feel about dosage?
1:27 Dennis McKenna: I think one of the misconceptions people have about mushrooms is that they’re light, that they’re more recreational, they’re easy compared to ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is the real medicine, that’s where you go very deep. That’s a misunderstanding. Because mushrooms are easy to use recreationally: you can take a gram, a gram and a half, go to a party and have a good time, and it’s all very nice. A lot of people do that, and more power to them. I don’t think you have to plunge into the abyss every time you take a psychedelic. You can have a good time, certainly better than drinking alcohol.
2:26 Dennis McKenna: And they can take those light doses pretty frequently, never suspecting that just around the corner the abyss will open up if you push it a little bit. There’s nothing easy or less profound about mushrooms than ayahuasca. In some ways they’re even more outrageous. The walls will melt, creatures start coming out of the matrix. It’s heavy stuff, a real shamanic, transforming experience.
3:10 Dennis McKenna: But there’s this cultural notion, because so many people take light doses, that mushrooms are for fun. And they can be used for fun. I don’t think anyone would say ayahuasca is for fun, because most people’s idea of fun is not throwing up, and that’s something ayahuasca does. But it’s a misconception. Mushrooms are just as profound and just as strong, and can produce even more profound insights, and really should be approached with great respect, like ayahuasca. Maybe a little fear would not be out of place.
3:58 Brian Rose: For me, I had my ayahuasca experiences first. I was in a ceremony with a shaman, and there was so much respect around it. And that’s how I treat my psilocybin experiences: there’s an occasion, it’s planned, it’s dark, I’m alone, it’s big, and I’m scared. That’s how I’ve been conditioned to approach it, and I quite like it that way.
4:24 Dennis McKenna: And that’s the other thing Terence talked about, and everybody’s talked about, and I talk about a lot: the importance of set and setting. People ask how they can use these things safely and still get a lot out of them. Pay attention to set and setting. Those are the two big variables. Plan for it, have an intention, and arrange your setting so that, number one, you’re safe. So maybe not on the freeway, maybe not even at a rock concert. Do it in a place where no one is going to bother you, at least no one you don’t want to bother you. Not the neighbours, not the local constabulary. Maybe your significant other could be close by or share it.
5:21 Dennis McKenna: But setting is important, and intention, and that’s part of the whole respect thing. Why am I doing this? What do I expect to get out of it? And then the set is really everything you bring to it: who you are, what your expectation is. It’s you, it’s your mindset, and everybody’s mindset is different.
6:00 Dennis McKenna: Terence told me once, when we were young, before I’d ever taken LSD: don’t take LSD until you’ve read Psychology and Alchemy by Jung. We were reading Jung at the time. He said, you’ll get much more out of it if you do. Well, I hadn’t read Psychology and Alchemy when I took it the first time, but later I did, and I realised what he meant. A lot of what’s in Psychology and Alchemy is a good map for the gestalts and ideas that come up during a psychedelic experience. So setting is one variable, and set is the other, which is much trickier. But they’re both important.
6:55 Brian Rose: I find with ayahuasca I get a distinct, finite set of lessons, like one, two, three, this is what I need to go and do. Sometimes it’s related to plant symbiosis, sometimes to relationships, usually with other people. It’s very deep. But with psilocybin, sometimes I don’t have any specific lessons afterwards, a day or two later. I don’t have in my mind that I need to go and do this, this and this. Is that something you hear a lot, that it’s typical to have a different kind of experience?
