Menno Van Gorp - World Champion Breakdancer: How To Create Your Own Unique Style

Full transcript: Menno Van Gorp on London Real

2:26 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today if you’ve been watching London Real for a few months or years now, then you know that I like to breakdance. Now, what is breakdancing? Well, it was a phenomenon that grew out of the Bronx in New York in the ’70s.

2:50 It’s a dance, it’s a culture, it’s intertwined with music and graffiti. And so I was super excited to host Menno van Gorp, who just won the Red Bull BC One Champs, kind of the Super Bowl of breakdancing, for the third time in his life. He’s the only guy to do it three times. He’s from Holland and he’s got this crazy flow style, and I actually got to train with him before the episode and then find out what it takes to be number one in the world, to go head-to-head in a live competition where you have to flow, you have to move, you have to create, you have to get inside someone’s head, you have to do all these things at once while you have judges and a crowd.

3:30 He trained six, nine months for this thing, and now breaking is in the Olympics and Menno wants to represent Holland and maybe get the first gold medal. I love this dance, I love this form. I’ve had two incredible b-boys on the show in the past, including Crazy Legs from the Bronx and Storm from Germany. Don’t sleep on this phenomenon, because these are some of the greatest athletes in the world and I know you’re going to enjoy my incredible episode with Menno.

4:00 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Menno van Gorp, also known as B-Boy Menno, the Dutch three-time Red Bull BC One All Star break dance champion, painter, entrepreneur and clothing designer. You have been breaking since you were 12 years old and have spent the last 20 years creating a style that’s earned you a reputation as one of the most unique and original b-boys in the game. You’ve competed in events all over the world, winning countless awards, and recently became the first person to win the BC One Championship three times in a row.

4:33 Menno, welcome to London Real. Thank you, dude. Man, it’s great to have you here. We spent about 90 minutes in the studio and you taught me all sorts of, like, honestly, new ways to use my body. It felt like a cross between Ego Portal and Crazy Legs.

4:51 Yeah, you know. And so we’ll be releasing bits of that video, probably on Instagram, and people can see that. But I really enjoyed that. And, you know, I’d love to start off in a crazy way. First of all, a lot of people don’t know that I’ve been, I’ve been breaking for like the last few years.

5:06 I’m kind of, you know, Portal inspired me and then I started practicing. I had some teachers and then I got Crazy Legs in here and Storm in here, and I was following you for the past year and watching your style and a bunch of people out there. And so to train with you was really special. And I watched you compete live at Mumbai, what, a few weeks ago, a month ago, on that Red Bull, you know, BC One Champs final. And if anyone’s ever seen it, I mean, it’s a serious production event.

5:35 I mean, it looks amazing. There’s like a circular stage, cameras everywhere, judges, and it’s high stakes, right? Yeah. And you went down to the final battle, so that means you had four battles in one night. Yeah.

5:48 So that’s 12 rounds. Yes. Of breaking. Just for people that don’t know, what is an event like that? I mean, what is it like to be there to compete, the mental headspace?

5:59 You got contracts, top of the line, you got prize money on the line, you got bragging rights. Yeah. No, explain it to people who maybe have never even watched one of these competitions. I think it is the event that brings the most pressure on your shoulders of all events in the breaking scene nowadays. Like the road tours, the event, you’re already busy with, like, media and interviews and local interviews and international interviews.

6:31 So in this interview, is they asking you all these questions, like, what does it mean for you to be there and to represent your country? So you really feel like you’re not just representing yourself, you’re also representing your family and your friends and your crew and your country back home. So that brings, like, an extra pressure that doesn’t really come with other events. It’s like the Olympics in that way. It’s a little bit like the Olympics in that way.

7:00 Yeah. And then at the same time, if you win an event like BC One, this can be very important for your career as a dancer, as a b-boy. It’s not really easy to make a living out of it, but winning a BC One can get you maybe a contract with Red Bull or give you, like, such a good exposure that you can, like, work at least, like, four or five years from just winning one title. So it’s a really big opportunity to put your name down. And the Red Bull BC One, yeah.

7:34 And pressure brings out the best and worst in people. I’m sure you’ve seen great b-boys in the training room, but when they get on stage, sometimes they just can’t make it happen, right? Yeah, especially when you have this green room, this warm-up space at the Red Bull BC One and being surrounded with, like, the top 16 of the best b-boys in the world. The physical abilities that people do is out of this world and I’m looking at it, I’m looking at how do you warm up, and I’m like, holy like, I can’t.

8:08 This is so, like, even for me watching what they do, it’s impossible. Like, imagine someone from the outside watching them. It looks like really, like, they’re superheroes in a way. And I’m not built like a super athlete, so that sometimes can give me doubtful feelings like, oh, like, how is the crowd gonna feel my movements and how am I gonna beat something that has that, like, a big of a shock value? But then you see on stage it’s not about the moves, it’s about how you put it together and it’s about what it’s about, how you do it, not what you do.

8:51 Yeah, yeah. And so even you can get intimidated in a room because you’re surrounded by the best in the world. You know, everyone’s got a different style, everyone’s from a different country, everyone’s got a cool name, right? You got Bart and Little Sumi and, like, you know, all these crazy, it’s almost like they are superheroes, right? Yeah.

9:10 Represent in Brazil and Ukraine and Kazakhstan, and everyone’s got a different look, a different vibe, and it is like haunted superheroes competing, right? Yeah. And I think that’s also one of the most important things in breaking, is to find your own style and your own way and fully your own approach, and then once you find it, you need to become the best of your own version. Yeah. It’s a good metaphor for life, because I think in b-boy sometimes, and we’ll talk about the whole evolution of the dance, because it’s pretty fascinating in itself, but you can see a bunch of cool moves and then you can go out and try to do those moves, but it’s like a martial artist.

9:53 You know, if Mama Dolly tried to fight like Joe Louis, he would get beat every time. He needs to do his rope-a-dope, he needs to dance around the ring. Mike Tyson tried to fight like Muhammad Ali, he would lose every time. So you have to embrace your own personality and, they don’t believe in yourself enough to go through with it and your head starts playing games with you sometimes. You’re a must and think, oh, maybe I got to do this, maybe I should change this, maybe the judges are looking for this.

10:20 And like you said, if you win BC One, that could set you up for years. If you lose it, you might be out there, you know, sleeping on sofas, just gonna make it happen. So it’s a lot on the line, right? Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And then so for people that don’t know, you get out there and it’s bright.

10:39 Breaking’s like it’s a battle, so it’s not a physical fight, although sometimes guys do bump into each other and it can get a little physical, but it’s almost your, it’s almost, it’s a display of prowess and it’s a gamesmanship that’s going on, and so you’re looking at your opponent the whole time and you’re trying to get inside their head. There’s go, in a way it’s like a battle without it being physical on the stage. Yeah. Can you explain that, because there’s no other sport like it in that sense.

11:05 When you see Dancing with the Stars, yeah, that people are dancing and the judges compete, but they’re never really in their face. Yeah. And in a martial arts competition they’re punching each other, so it’s somewhere in between, right? Yeah, it’s one of the most hardest things in breaking, I think, in the competing side of it, is for example that moment when you reach the final battle and your body starts to be tired, then your legs start to feel like, like spaghetti to still remember the moves that you didn’t do in the previous runs.

11:39 So it’s really important that you have a strong mind, that things come up at the right moment. And at the same time, everybody is very aware of that. So if you would battle somebody, you can get him out of his focus and he could, like, forget what it is that he wants to do and end up repeating stuff from previous rounds just because you got him out of his focus. And you were cleaning a couple of guys, they’re trying to get inside their heads, right? You know, if somebody does, like, around you, like point out a move and you’ll be like, that’s my move, or I can do that move.

12:17 You’re trying to get in his head and if he makes a mistake, that can, I can because of his room. Oh, and then the competition, right? Yeah. So, so it’s important that you see that when you battle somebody with your dance, is that it’s aimed at somebody. So when you, when you freeze or freezes, when you, when you hit a trick that you, that you freeze, it’s important that you, like, angle it towards the person that you battle.

12:46 Yeah. So you’re spinning around, it’s your 11th round of breakdancing for the day, there’s lights on you, it’s live, millions of people watching you, and you got to stop with your freeze and stare at the guy. Yeah, at least, at least this direction. And of course it’s a balance, you need to look somebody, like, fully, and I like fully the all-round, but it needs to show, like, in your movements, and also like that there needs to be a connection between you and the person you battle.

13:15 And you told me, like, in in real life normally you can be kind of a quiet guy and kind of a humble guy, but when you get on stage that changes. That changes. What do you become? Um, do you have an alter ego? Is Menno a different guy?

13:32 No, not necessarily. And I think if you know me, if you close to me, I’m not that, I’m not that quiet and of the humble. I always need to know how to explain, I need to get comfortable first to be myself, like fully 100 percent. But when I battle, that’s not the case. That’s like a switch is being turned and I feel like I’m the best of the world and nothing can impress me, what’s happening in front of me.

14:03 And I think that’s the mindset you need to have, because the moment somebody that’s battling you impresses you, then the de meses which are energy already, that makes you feel like, oh, that this was really good what he was doing, what am I going to do? So it’s really about keeping the, keeping the focus on yourself and not that the other person. And to me, when I battle, I’m the best and nobody can beat me, that’s impossible. Even when I lose, I still won, until I watch back the footage and be like, all right, I kind of lost.

14:37 But you know, like, I’m so full of myself on that moment in the battle that then it becomes reality and that the judge is feeling, the crowd feel it, and I only feel it. So right before the battle starts, you see, you’re on this side of the stage, other person is on the other side of the stage and you make eye contact before the battle even starts. So you look him in the eye and he looks you in the eye and then he looks to the floor and you’re like, okay, I’m already 1-0 if it comes to confidence, because I just looked at you in the eye, in you, and you looked away.

15:12 So there’s already gives you an extra push of confidence in a way. So that’s, I think, when especially with BC One, because everything is so focused on these battles, that’s the very first battle moment, before the bell even starts, is that eye contact. It’s like a boxer thing, Mike Tyson used to do that, he would stare at the guy, stare at the guy, and as soon as you look down, he’s like, I got that. That’s what that always, that’s what I always do. Really?

15:42 Yeah. Where did you learn this winning mindset? Like, did you have to teach yourself how to do that, or did you always believe you were the best? Um, there kind of happened in a natural way, I guess. I was definitely not one of the talented kids when I was young, so I had to work really hard for my place and I think that hard work made me stronger at the end.

16:12 Yeah, because you’re not physically gifted. Well, when I was, when I was a kid and my mom took me to the, to the, to the doctor, like the regular check, the doctor advised my mom to put me on judo because of my how to say in English, my balance organ was a little bit off. So I was a little bit goofy, so if I would do a head roll once on lower school, I would roll on my side instead of just a regular Admiral. So I would, like, drop things easily and I was a little bit clumsy, so the doctor told them to put me on judo.

16:53 Judo is a game of balance, because if you push you choose somebody and if somebody pushes you, you, like, you play with the balance and you learn how to fall, and this kind of set the base for my, for my breaking skills, I think. Yeah, and it comes out. Like, you showed me a bunch of your judo moves that became signature Menno moves. Yeah, which is crazy, but that’s the beauty of breakdance, you can pull in different movements and your own personality and make it your own.

17:21 Yeah, if you believe in it. Yeah, I think that’s this one of the most important things that you mentioned, energy. Like that’s what makes breaking different than maybe, say, other sports at the Olympics, and we’re gonna talk about it going, becoming part of the Olympics this year, which is super exciting, there next year. Is that your energy changes everything, because you know, if you look at, say, the 12th round of a boxing match, both guys are dead tired and they’re swinging away, sometimes just trying to survive and maybe get a lucky punch, but for you, got to keep that energy up and every move your energy is felt, right?

17:57 Your posture, your belief in yourself, and if you’re not feeling it or the other guy’s in your head, the judges see it, the crowd sees it, which means the judges see the crowd, your opponent feels it, and it can all go wrong because the dance is really all of your energy in one thing. Yeah. So it’s not necessarily like a sport in that sense, because it’s got that creativity and energy in it, right? Yeah, yeah, for me it’s definitely more an art form than a sport, because also the way you judge it, it’s not about who spins the hardest or who jumps the highest or who does the most frowns, it’s really about who will bring something to the table that you never seen before, that’s very, like, personal to this person that’s doing it.

18:41 I like to compare it more to music than to sports, because to ask who’s, like, what’s the best, who is the best b-boy in the world, for me that’s saying, like, what’s the best music in the world. If you can, you can’t say jazz music is better than funk music, because it’s just different, and breaking is the same thing, like the styles of people are so different that it’s almost so hard to compare. But there still is getting judged in a battle and then it’s just a matter of who’s executing and staying the best this way and it was the cleanest and who got the most.

19:25 And I have a lot of moves, so that’s why I win a lot of competitions, because I have a very unique style and I have a lot of different material. So many times I’m in the final and people are actually losing more to themselves and they’ll actually losing to me, I feel. Explain that, because I feel I feel a field to explain. Did they try too hard to, like, give, they just a lot of material left? Okay, by the time the final comes, I spent all their good material, they spend all the good material and they are tired and the fighting spirit kind of disappears and I’m always on top of myself and I get more dangerous in the final.

20:21 And why you more dangerous in the final? Because it’s almost like I’m a shark, like I smell the blood, I smell, I smell the price already, and then that gives me more energy. Sometimes it’s that moment when you’re tired and you feel you cannot go no more, and then once you kick out that door you have a new, like a new boost of energy, and that energy can bring you really far of you if you know how to unlock the energy. And I think my willpower is better than my stamina and my willpower is bigger than my talent.

20:57 My willpower was bigger than anything, so I think that the two strongest qualities I have is probably my willpower and my creativity, and those things together brought me really far. Most people wouldn’t think it’s a sportsman and then maybe wouldn’t call yourself that, would say willpower and creativity. You know, most people think it’s a physical gift or it’s discipline. Yeah, but it’s not. No, I don’t think so.

21:24 Yeah, I’ve seen battles with you with friends of yours on YouTube where you go round for round, and for people that don’t know, a b-boy round is about a minute, maybe less, seconds, something like that, and it’s kind of you’re walking out, you’re doing your thing, you’re doing your flow, you’re doing your performance, it’s probably gonna be on some moves on the ground at some point and you’re getting back up. It’s pretty anaerobic and when it comes to a level of work out, it’s not aerobic, you really can’t continue that pace without going to an oxygen deficit, right? And so you go say a minute or less sometimes, then the other guy has that much time to rest and then you go back and forth.

22:02 Yeah. And I’ve seen you go something like 10 or 15 rounds and I can tell you’re both dead tired, you’re just like, I’m not gonna stop, I’m not gonna stop, and yet you still have to keep it flowing and creative. Yeah, and that’s why competition’s time is different than when you’re just having a friendly battle. Yeah, yeah. I feel, I feel when you battle in the competition it’s really that moment, being judged, those three rounds, and when you really battle somebody like that, I think it’s the battle me versus Flay, oh, he saw it was a battle in at a practice in Montreal, and he is one of the b-boys that I really respect and I really like his approach, it’s kind of similar to mine sometimes, and we good friends.

22:49 So if he invited me to his event, a friend of another guy invited me to his event, and then I hit him up and I was like, let’s have a practice battle, because I really miss to have, like, a real conversation with another b-boy that I like and to really, like, dig deep and go longer than just that momentum where it’s for the crowd and for the cameras and everything. I think that’s missing though sometimes. And said conversation, but you’re not speaking in this conversation.

23:20 Yeah, we’re basically speaking with our bodies, like I’m showing him something and I can remind him of another move that he still got and he answers with that and it’s like seeing who got the most. And yeah, and then also see who can dig deep. Yeah, and then the most beautiful moment is when you feel you spend all your stuff and then just magic needs to happen, you know, you need to, like, figure out to do stuff in the moment, and that’s where really interesting stuff comes out sometimes.

23:50 And we were just in the studio and you were teaching me and saying, you know, I did a few moves and I was off balance and you’re like, that’s not bad, like use that off balance moment. And I stuck a hand down and you were like, that’s kind of fresh, what if you did that and then that? And you said when you get to those moments sometimes where you don’t know what to do or you have what you called it a blackout. Yeah, you’ll have a blackout moment where you don’t know what to do next or you’re in a situation where you’re like, uh-oh, if I don’t do something different I’m gonna do a repetitive move.

24:19 Yeah, then you’re like, you remind yourself to just do different things, right? You spin or slide or, yes. So I give myself tools, so certain positions that I thought I already aware from, I’ll end up in these positions a lot. I really go deep on a simple position and like milk it, like all the way, like see everything that I can possibly do with my body with that position. So once the moment I arrived at the position I have so many options that I don’t even need to think to do something, that my body automatically takes thanks, meter.

24:56 And sometimes even the spin of a simple jump can just help you to give yourself a little reset in your movements. This conversation you had with this b-boy in Montreal, what did you, what was it, what did you learn from that conversation? I think it’s, what did I learn? And I think it was just a really nice, really nice exchange. Then we actually battled together at the same site a couple of times as well.

25:32 But what did I learn? I think you learn to divide your energy and sometimes it’s good to go longer and sometimes it’s good to add to, to go shorter. So this was still a friendly battle, but if this was in the cypher, because that’s where the real battle happens, that’s when you go to an event and the competition might be in the middle and all around the competition’s flow you have circles and people are dancing in the circle and now it can happen that you jump in the circle and somebody wants to go at the same time or somebody meets you in the circle, is like, oh, this guy has a big name, I want to call him out in the cypher to battle, and then it becomes, it’s not just, you don’t know how many rounds you will battle, you want to make him give up, because you feel if you give up first you kind of lose the battle because you give up.

26:28 So then they start to be really strategic, and I mean by that is I could go a long round and then he would answer really short and then I need to answer again, but I just did a long round and that don’t give me as much as recovery time for my first round. So it’s really important if you have, like, longer battles to balance out your energy. If I see you did something really impressive that cost you a lot of energy I would answer with something that’s very short, very explosive, with which is effective, and then I would stop and I’ll let you go again and you’re still thinking, you’re still recovering from your last round, and that’s how you kind of, like, that’s how a real battle goes and it’s quite different than from a stage battle, right?

27:20 Yeah. And I’ve been to the BC One Champs and the fun stuff was happening in back, behind the seats, where these ciphers, and people know how the cypher is, it’s like basically a bunch of dudes, some time some girls as well, standing in a circle waiting for people to go in and perform and maybe get in battles or mini battles or maybe just one-off rounds, and that’s where all the cool stuff happens. Yeah, the stuff on stage, like you said, sometimes feels maybe more scripted or more performance-based, although, you know, the final battles can be awesome.

27:50 To hear, you know, it’s funny you said conversation you had with a guy. First of all, did anyone win that battle with that guy in Montreal? Was name foot flag it flew player, it was just friendly, but what it but he quit before you, I don’t remember. You know, there’s a jiu-jitsu fighter, Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighter named Kron Gracie, and he’s the son of Rickson Gracie, one of the most greatest Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighters at the time, and he said, until I roll with you, which means roll jiu-jitsu, he said, I don’t know who you are, I don’t know if I can trust you, I don’t know if I like you, but once I roll with you, then I know who you are.

28:26 I can feel your energy, I can see if you’re gonna do a cheap shot, I can see if you’re gonna get tense, if you’re gonna get angry, if you’re gonna flow, if you’re gonna be playful, if you’re gonna be fun, if you’re gonna be serious. Yeah, so I know what you mean, conversation doesn’t have to be with words, right? Yeah. And you can kind of see people’s personalities through their dance most of the time as well, sometimes more than words. Yeah, more than we’re saying.

28:54 All right, so it’s the final battle, you’re up against Killer Koya. It’s in Mumbai, you’ve been dancing all night, you’re probably tired, there’s a lot of pressure on you, no one’s ever won three times. Let’s be honest, you’re not the youngest guy there, are you? What are you, thirty? Thirty, which means you’re a senior citizen in breakdancing, right?

29:14 All right, Koya is, white in his early 20s I think. He’s are in the same age, really, spin their own next leaf over. He has, okay, looks young, but there’s a lot of youngsters out there, and you know, I thought he was younger, I don’t know why. He’s got this kind of fresh style from Kazakhstan, New York, combination of a lot of stuff, has power, has some personality, he’s coming out. Yeah, and he’s got momentum, right, and he wants it.

29:39 He says it would be his first, right? Yeah, he wants it. You’re the old-timer, you’re coming up on stage, the crowd, who knows whose side they’re on. Yeah. How do you approach this battle and what happens?

29:55 Let’s break it down for us, because it’s three minutes of your life. Yeah, which can change your life financially, a lot of ways, right? Yeah, I’ll just pump myself up so much, you’re stomping, snapping and, like, talking through myself and trying to piss myself up, piss piss myself off basically, to, like, to get to get energy. Like, what are you saying, teach yourself off? Like, what do you, were you tired and you want this?

30:25 What are you saying to yourself, like, but like, what would I say to myself, like this, this, this mind, it’s much like stuff like that, that’s how you get yourself psyched up. Yeah, and just by, like, the attitude I would have, my body, the way I would walk on stage, I will like walk back and forth like I’m a wolf, basically, like like a thirsty wolf, our core stage, that’s not a show, you’re feeling that, I’m feeling that, has it, you have to feel it, you can tell if it’s a shell. Yeah, okay.

30:57 And just to really try to be in the moment, because I think the moment you start thinking about that’s when you off. I think it’s really important to stay in the exact moment, you need to, like, live that moment, so don’t think about after or don’t think about before, it’s about what it’s worth or can go, don’t think about it can’t possibly go wrong or anything, just really be in the moment. You thinking about your SATs, you thinking about moves a little bit?

31:30 A little bit. Yeah, I’ll try to remember always, like, 3 points, like a beginning point, a middle point and the ending, and I just tried to, like, keep on keep on remembering myself. And in the first battle that’s all empty and you can just go in without thinking because you have so much material left, but once you’re in the final battle you really need to, like, think, because if you just go you will start repeating, right? You’ll go to your default moves.

31:59 Yeah, especially when you’re tired and you’re maybe emotionally fried. Yeah, we’ll go to the default moves, you know, judges see those again, you’re toast. Yeah, and a few guys did that in their later rounds and even the judges are like, yeah, we just saw that move in a previous round and they’re gonna get dinged. All right, so that happens. Koya comes out, he wants it, but he didn’t lay down for that.

32:21 No. What do you see, you talk a little trash to him as well? Is that something that just comes out, do you know you have to do it? And so what happened on those three rounds? Yeah, he did that move, for he got the crowd a lot, either that, like that, you know, come.

32:39 Yeah, he did the flip, he’s like, he did like the lotus move with his legs and, like, flipped into it and did, like, a meditation freeze. Yeah, and he’s in Mumbai. Yeah, that was pretty fresh move. Yeah. How do you not think, did you think for a second, that’s pretty fresh?

32:52 Yeah, I was like, damn it, I should have thought about it. But, you know, I was good, I was smart then though, and I like the, we did it and it was like, I was like, oh, it’s a battle. Yeah, you did that first round or maybe second round, I don’t know what it was. I think first, first round. And so how, but you’re not supposed to let yourself get into that head, yes, right?

33:14 You can’t start admiring his moves. Yeah, so at that moment was like, he’s just rolling from his back to this pose, I was like, this crowd, oh, I was like, let me show them, like, that’s the type of thought you have then. Oh yeah, after, admit that was a really nice moment. All right, so then you start flowing your stuff, were you happy with everything you did? Did you pull something out that you were a risk as well?

33:37 I did, I did one move, further, like a handstand, and I drop myself to the body out to the floor. Yeah, and that would, like, sweat underneath my shoes, so the moment that landed, my feet slipped and at that moment I was like, oh, that was gonna be risky, you know. And he was doing really good as well, so I was like, this is risky. So that at that moment I was less comfortable in my movement, in my movements, but it brought me more fire at the same time, like, okay, now it’s now or never, now it’s, like, now we need to go 200 percent to take this home.

34:19 And there’s also all of the reasons why I continue to battle, and because normally it’s three rounds and we did actually five rounds in the final. Yeah, of course, I totally forgot. And normally there with a live stream and that’s not possible, you know, like they stopped it, but the DJ, he just turned the music back on, so we continued it and the whole crowd was just like upside down and it was crazy. That was your choice? Yeah, you started, so you went fourth round, you were just like, cause Koya did some stuff at the end, it was like trying to show off or something, and you were like, this.

34:53 Yeah, then you went out again. Yeah, which you’re not supposed to do. No. So I wanted to show, like, I have way more stuff left and we can go for way more round, somebody went down there, I want to show it to the crowd and to the judges, and at the same time I was like, this would be really cool if we as b-boys decide to go longer, because that never happened, and there was a special moment that’s never happened, never. Amazing.

35:22 One chance, no. And so then you did a round, he did one, and you were like, I got more, I’m coming again, and you, yeah, did. How was his material in four and five, did he have some still? You still had some stuff. Yeah, okay.

35:38 So five rounds are done, everyone’s going crazy, the DJ’s like, I don’t care, I’m gonna keep playing. Yeah. Um, did you know you’d won or not? I thought I won, but you won, you never know, right? You never know, it’s always a judge decision and you just never know.

35:56 Yeah, okay. What’s it like when you do get the win, how do you feel? I feel like so much is going off of my shoulders at that moment, like I’ve been, I’ve been in a focus for this so long. I think it’s almost too long, because I was preparing for the WDSF World Championship in China earlier this year and I start preparing for it from March, and then that World Urban Games that was a couple months after, and then the BC One. So it was almost a full year of being, like, extremely focused to battle, to win competitions.

36:46 What’s that like, that process when you’re focused on competitions? Like you were telling me when we were moving, yeah, it’s like you turn it, you go from being a dancer and an artist into becoming an athlete. Yeah. Explain that for people. Yeah, so normally breaking has always been an outlet for me, it’s always been something I can express my creativity in and it’s something, it’s my chill moment.

37:13 Like I don’t, I don’t go to my friend’s house to play computer games or I don’t go to hang out somewhere, I go train with my friends and that’s my, that’s my me time and that’s my fun time. And I think when, for a little bit, when I trained too long as in this competition mode, I started losing joy a little bit, because I’m too focused at training and normally it’s really, I go there without thinking and I go, like, expressing and creating and there’s no pressure at all at breaking, because to me breaking is an ultimate freedom and the more movements I gained, the more close I feel to being free all the way, as in that what I want to do with my body. And I mean when I dance, when I practice, I’m not thinking about nothing, like everything’s just shuts off and it’s almost like a high when you break.

38:19 The meditation, like a meditation. Yeah. And with this competition training I was so much busy with these competitions that the joy of that disappeared a little bit. So you’re focusing on conditioning, in cars? Yeah, yeah.

38:37 All right, cardio. I was doing, like, a ten minute cardio thing, which I did, like, three minutes of floor sprints and then two minutes of elbow plank planks and then one minute of six steps and, like, really, really hardcore cardio and being really strict on my diet and practicing two times a day and practicing my material and creating it in a way that it’s then it has more structure, so it’s more easy to remember for me. So I was just so busy so long structuring my stuff, studying my movement, being at home writing, writing all my movements down, went to my practice spot, I had the list with all my movements written down, film all my movements one by one, added it into a video, watch that video during cardio, doing like cycle in the gym, and watch the footage, and that to get the mental imprint on your brain.

39:41 You’re like studying, like upgrading your software. Yeah, without having to use the hardware. Yeah. So I think it’s important you do it so it’s in your muscle memory, buddy. You write it down so helps you, like, remembering everything and then you watch it back and it’s also like on your, in your eyes.

40:02 So they helped me a lot, but I was literally like living like competition breaking, like, for a long time and they had, it had results, I had good results, but at the same time was like, I can’t wait to just break again and be free again to, like, enjoy this dance without, like, having the pressure of winning competitions. I think most people might be surprised, like, the discipline it takes you, you know, to be at the very top of that game, because that’s not a natural b-boy thing to do, is, you know what I mean? If I take 100 b-boys in the world, yeah, they’re not trained in that way.

40:44 No, they are, you, they’re doing it for the flow and for the fun. Yeah, but then when you put it in a competition format, it’s really important to just be extremely sharp and it just takes a really big athletic sight. Would you say most people at the BC One won’t come, are working on their cardio and are doing the same things you’re doing, or not necessarily that disciplined? I think they do, but I think they start, like, maybe like a month or something or a couple weeks before they start to take vitamin pills and be a little bit more healthy, but not really, like not that much that it would make like a really big impact.

41:24 Okay, you’re thinking long term. Yeah. All right, so you win it and basically all this releases off your shoulders, all the stress, everything you’ve been worrying about, you got it. You’re a father now, last few years, you got another kid on the way. Yeah.

41:37 So you’re not just competing for you anymore. Yeah, and that’s why it was also like a really big motivation to go all out this year, because like, okay, next year my son is gonna come, so I wanted, I wanted to be able to take it a little bit more easy. So that worked out. And at the same time, you know, if you travel all around the world judging and teaching and doing competitions and, you like, every week or every two weeks you’re in a different time zone, it’s really difficult to train like an athlete that focused.

42:16 And this is also my full-time job, you know, so if I don’t travel I don’t make money, but if I travel I can train for a big competition like this, so there’s risks to it. So I took off a lot of time, I said no to a lot of gigs to be able to train and that’s already like a risk of somebody that’s doing what I do, to say no to a good amount of money, to stay home to practice to maybe win some prize money. But then if you become a father again, that’s like, to me that was such a big push to go more harder.

43:04 Then they helped me a lot and I know it was possible because the 2014 when I won BC One, my daughter was just born that year, so we were like in the, in the baby-faced, which is a very hectic time, and to me it, I think it helped me more than anything, they really taught me to structure my time more and to, like, whenever I had time to practice I would use it to its full potential, because I would set high priorities to train and, like, make deals with my wife and not be like, okay, I need to practice, this is like I go work right now, like I need to be, I need this time. And she, like, giving me that time, like she would sacrifice a lot of, like, time for her personal life, for the things she likes to do. So, to, for somebody to give you a time that’s very valuable.

44:02 So I was like, if she gives me, like, this time to do what I like, I better, like, really, like, bring back home some results, you know. So that’s always been an extra push. That’s good, you know, a lot of people would use the new baby as an excuse, you know, but you use that baby to make your time more effective. Yeah. One of my mentors always has an expression, he says success leaves clues.

44:28 That’s what he says. And, like, that’s why I like talking to someone like you. You know, you don’t win three BC One chances by accident, you know. Yeah. And so if anyone’s listening, especially in the b-boy game, who wants to, like, come up, it’s not just about those flashy moves.

44:45 So, like you said, training for weeks before, I mean this is a serious sacrifice on the outside chance you can win a competition that on the day probably anybody could win, or at least the top. It’s gonna be tricky, yeah, and chance, and you don’t know injury, what’s gonna happen, and you’re still willing to do it on the chance that you get that prize. Yes. That’s big. Yeah.

45:07 All right, so you win it. How, what happens to you in your life now, 3-time BC One champ? You were signed to Red Bull already. Yeah. Okay, what happens, good and bad?

45:20 I got invited to learn the real show. It’s always, it’s always like a calmer period of the year and then I kept my dates a little bit, my cakes a little bit on the low, because I wanted to take some time off after this, but I’m going, I’m going to Kenya next week. I’m going there for Slum Dance. What’s a Slum Dance? So in Kenya, EF Kibera, this one of the world’s biggest slums, and they have actually a lot of b-boys living there and they started really small, they started organizing a competition just for the slums, then it became a national thing for all Kenya and then now it’s something for all East Africa.

46:13 And I think those guys are doing a really, really good job with the way they use breaking. So this guy called B-Boy Vick, then he teaches kids, there’s no Paris or that, like, really bad situations, kids that don’t want to speak no more, kids I’m really closed. He uses dance as therapy to open them up again and he’s doing a lot of good things there. So I wanted to, I wanted to support that more and go there too to judge and teach their event, and I was there last year, it was really nice and I came back this year and I’m gonna come back this year as well.

47:03 I made with my bread Menu Elijah, I made a shirt called Breakers for Breakers, because I feel the beautiful thing about the b-boy scene is b-boys always have each other’s back. Like I could go, I could, I could call that right now or I can put on Facebook, I’m in London, I need a place to crash, and I would, I would have a couple options to crash. And the same, like my old house there was, like if I wasn’t in another country, the other country was in my house, like there’s always somebody coming over or there’s always somebody to connect with, the train with, or people I show you around.

47:40 And I started to see this go from meetings where people is getting injured and they don’t have money to pay for the hospital and they do GoFundMe thing and the community actually pays for their own surgery. And this made me think, I was like, wow, this, we can really, like, do something for each other as a community. So I made these shirts, Breakers for Breakers, and the full profit of the shirt goes to Kenya, goes to Slum Dance, and the winner of that event I will fly him out to Poland for a workshop camp, go catch the flavour, to help him get more experience that he can share again with his people back home.

48:27 So I’m really looking forward to that as well. Tell me about the b-boy culture. How would you explain it to people, you know, this connection, this bond, or, you know, what what makes a b-boy, what happens when you start b-boying? So what I started, I think it’s the best way to explain, I was around 12 and I was always around my two older cousins, they were breaking as well, and through them I kind of got connected with local scene and first in my home town till work and then in there in Holland.

49:05 And you just see it’s a really, really tight community, everybody knows everybody, people going through to each other’s cities just to exchange this train and all these events there, like it’s kind of the same people most of the times at local events, but you really build together and you can see that it’s really like that’s a net, it’s a process and then it’s growing. And that, I think that’s something I really, I really like about the b-boy scene, especially when I was a kid. I felt like I was part of a bigger thing.

49:45 They gave me a lot of motivation when I was young and that made me feel very happy to be part of that community and to have friends in other cities and to just travel to another city to train and connect with other kids that had the same passion as me. And that thing became just a worldwide thing and it’s crazy, there’s people everywhere. There’s a b-boy that all of the tracks who attend is from Turkmenistan, that’s crazy to me, like that’s one of the world’s most isolated countries and they just ordered a tracksuit to Turkmenistan and they even kill the cows from Kazakhstan.

50:33 There would not be the first country that people abroad would think they’re good and breaking, but b-boys of Kazakhstan are actually really good. Yeah, I was surprised, I was like, whoa, Kazakhstan. Yeah, Kazakhstan, especially Russia and Ukraine, they have a very, very high level of breaking. Wow. For them it’s really is really an escape also for life.

50:54 They’re like, if you look at a monthly salary or a prize money you can win as a b-boy, yeah, like you making good money as an Ukrainian citizen by winning some prize money and friends. So for them it’s also a real way out, you know, and a better option than the regular job sometimes. And as a kid you weren’t necessarily physically gifted or no good, so how did you get to where you are today? I think I was around, around a lot of people that were very gifted and physical talented.

51:29 I think my two older cousins, they helped me a lot with the basic foundation and I looked up so much to them that I would never even think I would come close to how good they were and somehow, somehow I did, and I think it’s just a super cliche but it’s just hard work beats talent, I guess. And it’s something that I loved so much, then I was, I was almost obsessed, obsessed by it in a way. It would just not leave me alone, like when I would sleep I would think about breaking and when I would wake up and at school and like it was just busier in my brain all the time, constantly.

52:21 And because I was not that good I would look up to everything and everything around me so much that I think that it for me it was even more special than for somebody that’s really talented, because if you pick something up really quickly like, oh yeah, I can get it, I can do that too, or I can learn that really easily. And for me it was, everything was like, oh, I saw it, so I’m so blown away by it that I loved it so much that it always kept me busy. What did your parents think?

52:54 In the beginning it was, there was fun that, I guess, and they thought it was fun, then at some point it was more like, I’m just rolling around on the floor and it’s dirty, you go in the street and you went shopping mall and you go to Central Station and you go train there and roll around on the floor and those, sit with those clothing on the couch back home, and they did, they had doubts until they heard from my cousins, like, he’s kind of, he’s getting, because everybody knew my cousins were good because they were part of a crew that were Dutch champions at the time, and when they were, like, actually telling my parents, like, hey, he’s actually good, he’s creating his own style, he’s creative, they were the first, I think they were like, all right, he’s still doing something.

53:45 And then they know I was a little bit good and then I won UK Champs in 2007, that’s here, and I was in London and that’s where I made my name and that was like a World Championship, and when I brought home that trophy my mom had no clue I was that good. She was surprised, you know, like, world champion, she would, like, that came out of nowhere, for she had no idea I was that good. But what, still wasn’t a career yet, when did you know that you could actually make a living, are you still not sure?

54:21 I think, I think this was in 2014. So in 2007 when I won the UK Champs I started traveling all around the world. By the way, I stopped school in 2004 or 5, I finished high school and I wanted to do, I didn’t know what to do and I was really sure that I didn’t want to do just an education just to pick one because I had to. So I did the test at sport education because I felt there was most closest to what I was doing and they rejected me because they felt my motivation wasn’t good enough.

55:07 So this end up in training every day. So after two years of daily training I got my name, I won UK Champs, start traveling around the world, and if you’re 18 and you travel around the world it’s really difficult to go back to school and I was thinking should I go back and I saw traveling, I was like, this is not forever, I don’t know what I want to do in my life. Because of traveling I start falling in love with photography. So I was like, maybe photography is a good, like a good second, second skill for me to have to be able to make a living out of later on.

55:49 So my mom took me to this photography education but it’s quite expensive, he needed a computer and a camera and my mom was, you really sure you want to do this? And I was like, kind of, but not really, because of the back of my head I still want to break full-time. And then my mom told me like, if you want to break and you want to go for breaking, you go for breaking, don’t choose an education now because you feel pressure because you think I want you to go to an education.

56:23 And I think this was the burning point in my career. I was like, okay, my mom supporting my breaking, now I should, I should just really go for it. Later I started seeing that the Red Bull BC One got bigger and bigger and they started to have this Red Bull BC One All Stars, a sponsored, sponsored b-boys by Red Bull, and they would make actually like a better living from breaking, then, like, better than everybody is used to. So that was like a dream to me, I was like, okay, I need, I need this because then I can focus fully on my break and I can just battle and I can just do what I like and go for it 100 percent instead of being distracted by little theater pieces or by teaching classes to kids or by constantly needing to grab every little gig I could possibly get.

57:30 So that was, I aim for me and I was like, this is something I really, really want, and I knew winning the Red Bull BC One would probably give me this opportunity because I won, by 2013 I won every title in breaking that was hold except the BC One. So that was like the missing thing and I really felt already before, like all these guys in the steam was like, I deserve to be there too, like I really, like, honestly felt like I deserve this by what I’ve reached in the scene now and again. So it happened in 2014, I won, and 2015 I became, I became a Red Bull All Star and a Red Bull athlete and at this moment I was like, okay, now it might be, I think it’s possible to actually make, like, my full life out of this, and I start actually earning money and I could save up money and it was now, he was living life instead of surviving in a way.

58:40 And that was right after BC One that Robbie Denham hit me up. He’s a jeans designer from Scotland, from Glasgow, and he wanted to send me some of his jeans, he made his jeans by his own hand, he makes everything himself and he’s extremely passionate about his jeans and he’s been following Red Bull BC One for a while and he’s like, hey man, I wanna send you some of my jeans, I hope you like them. And I saw them and the one who sent me user with Twitter’s tweet on his jeans.

59:19 So the ones he sent me was with red and green, if I remember, like kind of the Christmas colors, sounds like this one is not really my style and I don’t wanna accept something and not be able to wear it and I will not battle in it because I don’t battle in jeans and I don’t know what you expect for me to do with the jeans, you know. And it’s like, oh, you see little designer and you, like, you design your own. And I was like, actually I have a dream to design my own tracksuit and he was like, let’s do it.

59:51 He just put my ticket to Glasgow to do a little Internet video with his jeans and we start drawing track suits and we bought fabrics and he made the first one, who lasso tracks with my hand, the first, the first one ever, and that was a start of my brand and that was the beginning where I thought to be like, okay, let’s now invest in this, which was basically another risk, because for the first time in my life I was making decent money and now all the decent money I was making was going into my clothing and I never studied business, I just did high school, so like I had to walk through a lot of walls to figure out a lot of stuff. Yeah, that’s a tough business. Yeah, clothing.

1:00:41 Yeah. And you had some mistakes in the beginning and how do you, how did you get through all that stuff? Yes, so the first, the first tracksuit that we made they had, like, white lights here and then here and the first thing that went wrong was the black fabric start shrinking. So what we didn’t realize is that we had to wash the fabric, it needed like a big wash before we actually, like, put them together, because I produce them in Ukraine together with another b-boy, but the fabric is coming from Scotland, so we ship over the fabric from Scotland to England and then we figure out it’s not working, so we need another wash, then we wash the fabric, made the track suit again and then the black fabric is given off on the white and somehow if you sweat a little bit though, the white part becomes yellow and, like, in the armpit.

1:01:43 I was like, oh no, one ever paid so much money in my life to make something happen like that and now it was just all gone wrong and like I was really feeling really bad about it and like, what am I gonna do, and trying to figure out a lot of stuff. So we end up finding out this collar catches, so there’s a little white sheets, you put them in the washing machine together with the clothing and it catches the collar. So I start washing all the tracksuits before I sold one tracksuit, I put it in the laundry machine and I put like a lot of these collar catchers and I used to wash it and then the white stripe became kind of gray.

1:02:32 I was like, well, this is the track, so this is it. So it became again, we became like light gray instead of black and we’re still able to sell it and I gave away a lot of them because the first one I already know, it’s simple, it’s important for people to wear it and to just support people and give it to the right people. So you kept pushing now. Yeah, you decided not to quit. So I kept pushing, same would be boy and the same would be boy.

1:03:00 Yeah, because I felt a lot of a lot of similarities and I decided to approach it the same way I approached breaking, and if you break and maybe you break 10 years, you start to have just a little sense of direction where you go and with what you’re doing, 10 years before you even maybe know where you’re going. Yeah, because I remember myself breaking, like, for 6 or 7 years and really thinking I knew and then I didn’t. I remember like friends showing me footage from soon of people and I was like, add is boring.

1:03:47 For me I like to see, like, bigger tricks or like more explosive stuff and then watching it back 10 years later I was like, holy, why didn’t they see this 10 years ago? I was, I was blind for it, you know. So it’s really a matter of the long you in it, a better few, the better if you become on it. That’s like some samurai knowledge. Yeah, right, like only when you become the master can you see it.

1:04:13 You’re not a master, right? Yeah, that’s fascinating. So now mentally sure is in full form and I got some mental easier today, I’m pretty excited, it’s brown, which is just, it seems like your color brown is fresh, right? And you sported, you supporting the same track suit I wore today at the BC One finals. Yeah, that was the one.

1:04:32 Okay, yeah, it’s nice, man. So I won the first, the first BC One I wanted to know, the second BC One I won in Amsterdam was in my tracksuit and the second one too and that made me feel really good too, to actually win in my own track, so it is like the perfect, the perfect way of promoting it. Yeah, that’s fresh. Now while on track suits, maybe you can explain to anybody’s watching us who has no idea, like, what is breaking, you know, you know, and why is the tracksuit part of it and why are we talking about styles and battles and, you know, when people ask you what the hell is this thing you’re doing, how do you explain it to people and how did you get your head around it and did you even understand it for a while?

1:05:22 Because part of my education in the past three years when I’ve been learning about breaking is learning to the culture, and I’ve had some really good b-boy instructors, I’m guy named Mark from Liverpool who was from, like, Rocksteady Liverpool, Alexander’s Irie from Team Shmita, I’ve had Crazy Legs here who, you know, started off back in the day, and then Storm, who was like the guy in Europe, kind of breaking alive when it kind of culturally died in America, and a lot of that, my best instructors teach me about the culture, about the music, about the representation, about what it means, about why you do it. It’s not just gymnastics, you know, that’s what I was taught. Yeah.

1:06:04 And it means a lot to me to know what I’m doing, something I represent and why I’m doing it. So what, maybe you can explain. Yeah, breaking as, break is really difficult to explain because you can’t, it cannot really name it, like you cannot say breaking as a sport or you cannot say, he cannot really put a stamp on it, because there’s so many things at the same time. But yeah, it’s founded in the Bronx in the early, early 70s. It started as a dance that also brought the solution, like instead of fighting they could solve, resolve things with dancing.

1:06:51 So yeah, you have, you have all these categories underneath breaking. So you have, you have the foundation that you have, you have power moves, that’s what most people know breaking for, like head spins, back spins, windmills, everything that flies in there spins, and then you have footwork, which is basically the core of breaking, and that’s when you own your hands and your feet, when you dance with your hands, at your feet on the floor. And I think this is the most special thing about breaking, because there’s the thing you see that you don’t see in any other discipline, like footwork is really traditional, that’s 100 percent breaking, because some power moves you will find back in gymnastics, some of the dance moves you’ll find back in salsa, but footwork is really, that’s the core of breaking, it’s this relationship with the floor.

1:07:49 You don’t really see where guys literally get down on the floor. Yeah. When you never saw that really in a dance style. Yeah, ever. So yeah, I think breaking is the first dance that actually went down to the floor, and then you have your top rocks, that’s when you dance on your feet, and then you have freezes, so that’s really when you stick momentums.

1:08:15 So the first, I think the first years of your view as a b-boy, it’s all about understanding this foundation. So you start to learn a little bit of each aspect and you need to learn everything is impossible, but you figure out how does my body work, where’s my flexibility, what do I pick up easily, whereas my qualities. Also you have a new relationship with pain in the beginning and you find out how bad you want it. Yeah, because like my fingers hurt for a long time.

1:08:49 Yeah. In like my, because to get these moves on the ground and even my knees and ankles, they were all telling me to stop. Yeah. And because I wasn’t used to supporting all my weight on my wrists and my fingers and my elbows and, yeah, and if I didn’t know I had to push through it I would have stopped. Yeah, yeah.

1:09:07 It’s definitely gives you some little pain in the beginning. Everybody knows the windmill, the windmill spot, I had a scar on my back, everybody doesn’t mean you don’t even a b-boy scoffs like a size of a quarter. Yeah, it’s just all raw. So every people I had this and there begins to bleed to my shirt, my wife feel like, what are you doing, there is that measure on the right way go. So yeah, it’s all about, like, learning these basics and at the same time you learn about the history of the dance, and which was born out of kind of this urban struggle and malaise and this compression of poverty and expression.

1:09:50 It was happening in the Bronx in New York City and then also with a combination of kind of DJing and then the guys being able to play these records where there would be these kind of break beats, yeah, right, where there would be no singing, and at these kind of house parties and these DJ parties in the Bronx. So a lot of, like, for example, a soul, a soul, a soul number or funk number can have like a quiet part and then at some point it comes to break and the break is, well, like the doomed Papapa, and that moment the DJ, he would cut that up and he would put it on repeat, he would scratch it in a way that that is just the break being played all the time and that’s when the b-boys come out and this really started to break, right? So B-boy means break boy and they would do their top rock to kind of clear some space.

1:10:38 Yeah, because early on the groundwork became part of it, right? And so to do that they would kind of do this top rock and then get on the ground and I guess during the breaks they would let the b-boys do their thing. Yeah, and everybody would kind of clear out. Yeah, and then like you said, it was this way to fight without fighting, the way to display prowess, just like they do with the haka is down in New Zealand, this is just doing it with but dancing, right?

1:11:02 Yeah, yeah, you can, you can get all your, like, emotions and you can put all your emotions in it, right, show how fresh you are, show your style, show your athleticism, give your aggressiveness, everything, intimidation, lack of intimidation, or you know, there’s a lot of people that are a lot of humor and you see it back in their dance as well, right? Yeah, good point. Yeah, and then there’s, so the music comes with it, graffiti and other artistic expression kind of always rolled up in a lot of the similar culture, right?

1:11:37 Yeah, so I think that’s why, why breaking is a very good foundation in life, I think in general, is because it’s for so many things around it. It’s funny because I had Crazy Legs in here. Yeah. And again, Crazy Legs was one of the original guys, I mean he was there, you can see him back in the day, he’s being interviewed on, like, David Letterman, he was in the movie Flashdance in the beginning and then he was a basically a stand-in stunt double for the girl when she’s doing the back spin in the end, that’s actually a wig on it, you can see him because he’s all skinny in there.

1:12:18 And so, but you know, it’s weird for him because he was this kid in the Bronx doing this expression and now there’s this young kid from the Holland. Yeah. It’s taking a style he did out of necessity. Yeah, I mean it’s a strange thing, right? Yeah.

1:12:33 And I think for him it was a way out of doing negative stuff and, like, a way to break out of the ghetto, and for me it’s in a way a way to escape the normal 9, like 9 to 6 life. It’s a way to be free for me, like I never felt like an office job where anything was something for me and I never know which direction I wanted to go to and breaking offered me their freedom. You ever think how you are, your style is different than, say, the Rocksteady in the Bronx in 1977?

1:13:17 Like you bring different things to it. Yeah, but I’m still very inspired by the old footage and I got most of my inspiration from, actually, from old school footage. I think that’s very important to study the old school and I tried to flip that instead of watching people from just one generation before me or from watching people as the same generation like me. I think if you watch the, if you starting as a kid right now and you start, you start looking at BC One and you get inspired by that, you get inspired by people that been inspired by other people so many times.

1:14:01 So the inspiration is in a way, like, third hand or like fourth hand inspiration. So I really like to, like, go back to the source and get inspired by that and the way they touch the floor, to me it’s like a timeless thing and it’s still, it’s still like necessarily for me to still have a glimpse of that old-school touch in my dance. What do you see when you look at those old-school videos? Well, it’s like magic to me, like I want to, I want to jump in a time machine and go back, come back in time.

1:14:36 Wait, wait, and what do you notice? It’s so pure, it’s so, it’s so young still and so pure, and of course the competitions, like they were, they weren’t around like the world now, so it was really more like an expression. If I’m more than this right now, like it’s also turning into a business a little bit. Back then it was for respect, right? In rep.

1:15:05 Yeah. And it was almost like there were fewer tools, so the tools they had were perfected, you know. I’ve never seen some of the clean lines like I’ve seen in those old school footage. Like, yeah, they were these basic moves, but some power moves too, but they’re doing them in a way I don’t see anybody doing these days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because now you have so many moves you can, you can train or you can make up and back then, I don’t know if I would break, if you would put me back in time and let me break them, maybe they would say like, he’s not even breaking, they were saying doing something else, but that’s how breaking room.

1:15:45 Yeah. And so what is your style? My style is all about transitions, so it’s all about how I go from move to move, like I travel, I travel over the flow with unpredictable movements. So I like to tell stories and another thing people, a lot of people know me for is my flow, so I tried to be very flowy and mix things up in a creative way. How do you tell, still but still have the touch of, like, classical b-boy in it?

1:16:24 Okay, right. How do you tell stories? how can a guy on a floor tell a story? It needs to make sense, it needs to have a build up, it needs to go somewhere and then it needs to start somewhere, needs to end somewhere. So you cannot just do a move, get up, dance a little bit, get down again, do another move, that would look like somebody is just saying whatever.

1:17:00 So if you could like work, if people could follow you and you’re in your round and they would look at your rent and they would follow everything till the end like this, then it’s a story. You notice tell the story, it’s easier to show in the physical way than to say it. Yeah, but and what did we just do, what did you want to do with me today and what did, tell people, what was that first 30, 40 minutes like? I wanted you to focus on simplicity and to move in very simple ways instead of thinking very deeply about bigger moves.

1:17:40 So which is what you’ve probably seen a lot of people starting these days. Yeah, so I wanted to work on your in-betweens. So I don’t know what the scene is in English but these words, these words you use to build up a line, I want you to work on those type of words instead of, instead of just like bike or shoe, I want you to learn like the bad that bike, like the prepositions in the article. Yeah, and the small words, you know, in the bigger word. Yeah, and that’s what a lot of people start off with the b-boys, they want to learn the windmill, you know, they want to learn the air flare, you want to learn the head spin because those are the flashy moves.

1:18:28 Yeah, but you want to focus on the transitions, the basics, the flow, the floor, that all these things that most people go right past. Yeah, like a great boxing teacher will make you learn the jab for like two years. Nobody wants to learn a jab, they all want to learn the flashy overhand right, didn’t they see the chaos, but the boxing teacher knows that the jab is what’s gonna get you where you need to go. Yeah, and you’re trying to get me to focus on those.

1:18:57 Yes, and it was, I mean, it’s so, we’re always fascinates me, I mean we got two legs and two feet and two knees, during they’re joined at the hips, you would think there’s only so many combinations there, but you know, when I see you on the ground and when you teach me, I mean there’s like an infinite number of moves and flows and it’s crazy. Yeah, yeah, to me that’s why it’s so addictive, because every time I go practice I figure new stuff and that’s a very satisfying feeling for me, and every time I’m working on something I have this moment like, okay, I can use it in this way, and then I come back home and I’m, when I’m at home I review my training, I’m watching back when I filmed and I’m like, wait a minute, what if I use this move and I put it together with this one and become something else, and it’s like a never ending process and that’s why it’s so addictive for me to always, always train and always create.

1:20:01 And you were like, you were like, okay, Brian, embrace coming off balance, embrace the mistake. Yeah, and a mistake can turn into a new move, you know, try not letting one leg hit the foot, foot hit the floor for two minutes, see what you can flow like and then see what comes out of it, and it’s amazing. It’s like these, I think it was Tim Ferriss who’s been on my show, he said constraints create great art, and it’s true. Like, well, sometimes we had to film our movie with Ido Portal, we went to Israel, we had four days and I said, Ido, can we film you doing flow for part of the movie?

1:20:38 And he said no. I said, okay, we can’t film just you with some cool lighting? He said no. So it’s like, okay, great art is made with constraints, so I was like, how do we make a film about this? So the same is kind of true with b-boy, right?

1:20:52 If you limit yourself you can find beauty in there. Yeah, in there, yeah. And sometimes it’s almost like, I would say if you would make an abstract painting, it really is really hard to figure out where you begin, but if you have some splashes or some scratches on your painting it can be like, all right, this I can turn this into a nose and then I can turn this into a face and then I connect another face right next to it, and I feel it’s the same with breaking.

1:21:26 If you would just pick one position or one movement and it could be, it doesn’t need to be a windmill or something, it could be just like a position like this and you would really, like, see what you can actually do with it, then you can create. But it’s really difficult to just create out of nowhere, just to be like, okay, now I’m gonna do a new move and I’m gonna do, I’m gonna do this, because it’s really hard for something just to pop up out of nowhere. You need to, like, find it more, then find it with movement instead of finding it in your head.

1:22:01 So it’s all about thinking with your body, as in just moving around without thinking too much and we still have that awareness, like, oh wait a minute, I think I just did something nice, then you rewind yourself and you focus back on that point. Yeah, so creative. And the reason I started break dancing is because I was training with, you know, Ido Portal, and Ido said, well, you don’t make me rethink a lot of my training. I was like lifting weights and doing all this like tough-guy stuff and I went to train with Ido and he was like saying, why don’t you focus on, he says there’s level one, level two and level three movements, and level ones, when you first move and learn and move and it’s super exciting but you suck at it.

1:22:44 Yeah. And level three is when you’re repeating moves and he says if you go to most gyms, everyone’s doing level three movement, think they’re running on a treadmill, they’re doing the same bicep curl, there’s not a lot of creativity or expression or new neural pathways. Yeah, and so he gets, he had me doing these lizard walks across the floor and then I had a flashback to some kid in San Diego doing a B-boy thing and I just thought, well, you know, I’m 45 years old, why not?

1:23:10 And so I started learning and trying, but it was fun because I would go to the gym and that was fun. I was like a kid, I was like, oh my gosh, I just did this, I just did this, I just spun on my back, that’s crazy. And now when I go train I’m actually going and creating and it’s actually just fun. You know, it’s just like fun expression, but now I know based on what you taught me today how I can try to also just be with the moment and be meditative and don’t be thinking I got to perfect a windmill today, although I still will also be working on it because it’s fun.

1:23:42 For people watching, they wanna try breaking, how do they start, because it’s hard, it’s hard to find a teacher, it’s hard to know where to start. Um, I think the best thing is to find out where’s the local community and try to just link with them. Most cities have, like, an open practice spot for breaking and I’m sure there’s somebody that gives classes in each city. I think the best thing you can do is just connect with those people and if you showed them your, like, appreciation of what you’re doing, they will take your honor another wing and they will will help you with practice spots or they will let you know when it’s training and you’ll be part of the movement.

1:24:40 Yeah, show some respect. Yeah, in going there with an open mind. Yeah, and, yeah, try to learn a little bit, right? Yeah, let’s talk about the future. Next year we got breaking in the Olympics, look for 24, 2024, and that’s happening in Paris, right?

1:24:57 Yes. Okay, and so what does that mean for you, for breaking, for the world? Is this a good thing, is this a bad thing? Some people say events going into the Olympics is gonna ruin the event, right? Some people say boxing in the Olympics is ruined, snowboard is ruined.

1:25:15 What’s your read on everything? But I, in my opinion is it’s a thing that’s every four years or five years or four years, so it’s only one less than the four year, so I don’t think it can do that much harm to me. It’s definitely not a sport, even though now with the Olympics it will get the stamp of love, it’s a sport, so that feels a little bit weird to me, but I do think it’s really nice that we get the recognition from people abroad, from other people that’s still see it as something like, are they just rolling around on the floor, there’s some street thing, they do it because we have our own community and it’s been standing strong for a lot of years.

1:26:07 It deserves, it deserves a spotlight and I think it’s a really interesting thing to follow, just as any other sport you can follow it and hopefully Olympics will just widen things up for everybody and we’ll make the platform even bigger. Another good side is that a lot of countries they are struggling very hard with breaking because it’s not that respected, like I know b-boys from Algeria and they actually really talented but they can’t travel because they don’t get their visas and they were invited for event if friends and they ask like they asked for their visa to go to the event for friends and they just don’t handle the visas because they don’t take breaks serious, but now when it becomes Olympic it’s an official sport and maybe allowed the government in Algeria or I don’t know where will take it more serious.

1:27:09 So I think from this side I think is gonna help a lot of people out. Yeah, yeah, it’s gonna be interesting to watch. So it’s in the 24 Olympics. Yeah. All right, so how are you gonna be a part of that?

1:27:24 It’s four years from now. I’m planning to be a part of, how do you a part of that, or you can you tell me. I think, I think 35 is a nice age to not to stop but to have, like, a last competition where I’m really gonna train like a athlete. Okay. And I think it’s a good challenge to stay in shape that longer.

1:27:53 Yeah, I think it’s just an overall nice experience. Okay, to be part of it because at the MS is pretty historical for breaking to be at Olympics. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so you’re planning on training for that.

1:28:08 Do you know what the rules are like and have you started to look into how it works? Well, already, they are organizing some competitions under the flag of the Olympics and for that we needed a judging system, so Storm actually created a judge system. They work what now and the way it works, it’s pretty fat, it works with faders on each category, so the only thing that concerns me is that people watch their iPad too much instead of watching the b-boys, but I compete twice with it and that’s what works fine for me.

1:28:54 So yeah, I’m really, really excited to see how everything is going. The event in China I did was linked with the Olympics and it was really sporty and I was really, I really didn’t like the vibe the event had at all, but then they did one more in Budapest and I could tell they were really, really doing their best to make it cultural at the same time and to listen to the b-boys and to make, like, a setup that is not as sporty as you would think it is. So they would really embrace our culture and listen to us to make it as much comfortable for us as possible.

1:29:38 Right. You mentioned Storm. Yeah. Tell us who Storm is, what effect he had on you. Our Storm was a legendary b-boy from Germany.

1:29:49 I think Storm took breaking to the next level, but a couple of other people in Europe, he just brought things to the next level and even I was that mean, like almost every basic move you can name, Storm can do it, and he can do it very well, and he’s like a dictionary of movements and he think he’s a really smart, smart man in general and you can really see that this dance also and for Europe he is just the man, you know. If it comes to high level breaking, to timeless breaking, he’s just a man. I think the things he did twenty years ago, if you would put Storm from twenty years ago in the BC One right now, he would still make chance of actually winning and he found, like, that he’s a perfect example of a timeless b-boy.

1:30:59 So his break is timeless. Yeah, yeah, I see videos from Storm and I mean I’ve only been doing this for a few years and I know it’s Storm right away. Yeah. I’m like, that’s that Storm, I kind of look now it is because he’s just got these little style, this the perfection, the lines, that sanity, so who’s he does it, it’s amazing to see. And I had a mini one, it’s just wild how kind of ten years, because people, it was big in New York for a while and then when the disco came in it was not cool.

1:31:31 Yeah. And they wouldn’t let the b-boys in the clubs, no one cared anymore and it really got kind of died out for a while and then Storm kind of brought it back to a certain extent, you know, and watch the old tapes and he tells stories or he went to the Bronx and he’d be wearing the clothes and people are like, what are you doing, that’s wack, that’s out of date. It, he’s like, what are you talking about, where b-boys, and they’re like, what? And it was just now maybe Crazy Legs would not agree to this, but in a weird way and those guys, whatever, room they have, give different versions of the boy and stuff, but I think Crazy Legs might say it’s not true, but Storm kind of brought it back in a sense, you know, and in Europe was, you know, one of the pioneers, you know.

1:32:10 Yeah, and he’s still dancing today and judging today and, yeah, and it’s important to have a guy like that in Europe. Yeah, for guys like you to know that he was there, I mean that must give you a lot of vibes and confidence when you’re growing up to know that somebody in the country next to you was laughing so hard back in a day. So yeah, he’s still really involved with the dance. Yeah, yeah, super nice. Yeah, so Olympics in 2024, you, the gold medal.

1:32:41 Yeah, I’m gonna do my best. Can you imagine, man, bringing the gold medal, like what, seeing kids right now and then I would like them, this guy in five years, I don’t know if I can, if I can still like beat those type of guys, you know, because in a one year a lot can happen already and imagine in five years. So the guys that are really good right now, they’ll be more experienced and more matured by then and I’m just getting older. So let’s see. Yeah, let’s see, it’s gonna be fun to watch.

1:33:15 But I think also because, um, at that time when I’m older is less, is less pressure for me at the same time. Yeah, sometimes that can bring a different vibe, different energy. Yeah, also if there’s a team, you know, they need leaders on the team to help people get there. So yeah, what else is happening for you in the next five years? You want another BC One Championship under your belt, is mentally you’re gonna blow up, get bought by Nike or something, or what’s gonna happen, what are your plans?

1:33:49 Oh, more kids? Well, not, two is enough for now, I think. Yeah, I’m just trying to keep on doing what I do and just keep going forward and I’ve been always doing that and always good things came on my path and I took my opportunities with both hands and that’s still what I’m planning to do, keep on investing in my brand and make it bigger and bigger. To see where it’s now compared to 2015 is a pretty, pretty good growth, so hopefully in five years I will be, it would be bigger and I would actually, like, make profit of it.

1:34:44 Okay, so that training for the Olympics, train for the Olympics, stay in shape, push the brand, be a good father and just live my life, that said, be happy as long as long as I can live from what I like, I’m a happy man. Okay. Yeah, and what happens in your 40s when maybe you can’t necessarily compete with the kids? I’m actually, as cells maybe really strange, but sometimes I’m looking forward to being a little bit older and still be involved in the scene because there is, it’s all the pressure has gone completely and then this I can break more for fun than to be so serious about my stuff all the time.

1:35:33 Right, like Storm. Yeah, what po one can do that. Yeah, he can just show up and he doesn’t, yeah, doesn’t have to dominate, enjoy it, and everyone respects him and he’s part of the scene. Yeah. Okay, nice.

1:35:46 Let me ask you a question. If I was to ask a bunch of your friends and asked them what’s Menno’s superpower, how is this guy able to do everything he does, how is he able to win these competitions and build businesses and all that stuff, what would they say, what’s your superpower? He’s a doer, I think, and I always, I always try to make decisions and do things in life from a perspective of, there’s been a good person, and I felt that always rewarded me in life.

1:36:21 I feel because I always act from being wanted to be a good person always brought good things back to me and I’m not like super religious or super spiritual but I really believe in good karma. Yeah, yeah, me too, man. Older I get, the more I believe in karma. What’s something you do every day, non-negotiable, you have to do to be who you are? Break.

1:36:56 Do you move every day at least a little bit? Yeah, yeah, even when I’m watching TV and I might not even realize that I’m doing it, I’m on the couch and I go lower and I start to be in a stretch position and before I know I’m doing something, it sounds really a part of me. Okay. What was the best day of your life and the worst day of your life? Oh, best day of my life, it’s really hard to say.

1:37:39 It’s not necessarily like there’s one, there’s one peak. I think I’m just living a very happy life in general. So I guess winning BC One, and the first one, the first victory of BC One was a really good day in my life. Nope, that dynasty my life. Oof, I don’t think I had it yet, I think it’s still coming, I’m afraid though.

1:38:17 Okay, there you go. But yeah, I think if I will get in just really bad though, that would be very heavy on me. Okay. If I were, if I would like got a really, really bad injury, I think that would be a very dark day for me and something that I have to deal with, that would be very difficult for me, not be able to move. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

1:38:50 Well, what does the world not understand about Holland? What’s Holland really like that we don’t know? what solid leg that you don’t know well. I think all the people are all are not pretty open-minded in general but can be stuck sometimes on traditions too much maybe, like the Black Pete, I don’t know here up-to-date where that one now. What is it, the scent of glass and the swathed Pete, the Black Pete now, because Holland is so open-minded and known known for being open about so many things, but then we have this thing called Sinterklaas and in Holland the kids don’t believe in Santa Claus but they believe in Sinterklaas.

1:39:51 Okay, which is, uh, which is a skinny, a skinnier version with a pointy head with a cross and he’s on his horse and he has this Black Petes around him and they look like, they basically look like black face, like slaves, and it looks really, from the outside it looks really bad. The original story was good because it is a panda but uh, like a good holy man that bought slavery of that but uh a slave he bought, it bought his freedom and the slave decided to be his companion and that thing became the bigger, more companions and it became a child story and it changed up the story and now he comes with a boat from Spain with a lot of black face looking like helpers there, like kind of the elves, and from the outside he has a very bad look because it looks like it looks a little bit racist.

1:40:49 I think the new generation of the people, they’re like, let’s change this, this is for the kids, let’s make them like just a colored face or let’s change the story a bit, but then a lot of people, they’re very like stubborn and they’re like, it’s a tradition, it’s our traditional touch, a tradition and I like it. We’re so open, right, so let’s like see it from other people’s perspective and that’s all like, try to make everybody happy instead of making so much for such a little thing, you know. Right.

1:41:23 That’s a good, good dichotomy of that country. Yeah. What scares you? What scares me? Mmm, nothing that pops up right now, but obviously getting a really bad injury is something that would scare me.

1:41:52 It scares me for something to happen to my kids, to the people I love, for breaking to become sport. That’s fair enough. And what would be surprised to learn about Menno, something you do in your spare time, it isn’t breaking? This is what I love, painting and love with the photography. For the rest, something you don’t know, damn hard question.

1:42:41 That’s enough, that’s good, man. I always ask a few questions at the end. I’m going to ask you, if you could call up twenty year old, actually, I’ll say fifteen year old Menno and give that young kid some advice. He’s been breaking for three years. Yeah, maybe thinks he thinks he’s good or something at this point, I don’t know.

1:43:01 Yeah, thinks everybody else is wack, right? If you could give him some advice based on everything you know now, what would you tell It’s really good advice, man. Thank you. Look, as I said earlier, there’s that quote from my mentor that success leaves clues, you know. And so I’ve been watching you for about a year and really enjoy just watching you, and again, you learn a lot about someone, you want, you watch a move, you know, probably new.

1:43:50 I felt like I already knew you to a certain extent just watching me move. I knew you had the Leisure company, which was kind of fresh, and then, you know, boom, I saw you on BC One and then you won again. And so, yeah, it’s great to have you on. Thank you. And at one point I didn’t know you were gonna talk about all this cool stuff and about this mindset, but at the same point I think it’s important for people to know you don’t stumble into winning even one BC champ, let alone three, there’s got to be something there, there’s got to be a mindset, a discipline, all that sacrifice.

1:44:21 Yeah. And I think it’s important for people to see, you know, and especially to understand that b-boy, like any major competition, athletic competition, requires a mindset. No, it gets you there and so it’s great to see. So thank you for that. Thank you for the training session today, I will remember that for a long time.

1:44:40 I promise to start working on those moves. You’re gonna see a flow that’s crazy and it’s gonna blow all my people away as well, because people every now and then they see my windmill, they seem like my kip-up and all that stuff, but when they see the flow around it, people are gonna finally respect the b-boy that I am. Right. So I really appreciate that, man. So look, all the best.

1:45:02 I’ll be sporting Menno Leisure, representing for you, and look, all the best with the Olympics, with everything you’re continuing to do with your business and without there to continue representing and judging, and I hope you get to compete in 2024 and just keep doing what you’re doing, man. I think you’re important voice and style in the whole b-boy movement and it’s nice to see you talk about that killer instinct you get in the competition, there’s you need that and I think everybody needs that sometimes, you know. Yeah.

1:45:33 So, um, look, man, it’s been great meeting you, stay in touch and good luck with that trip to Kenya, that sounds really cool and I appreciate your giving back. So that’s it, man. Thank you. Cool, man, it’s been a pleasure. Yeah, nice.

1:45:46 All right, thank you.