Before he was a bestselling author and podcaster, Jocko Willink was a young Navy SEAL getting choked out by an older teammate who had been training with the Gracie family. In this clip from his 2016 London Real interview, Brian Rose asks the jiu-jitsu black belt about the martial art, how mixed martial arts has evolved, and what he makes of Conor McGregor.
It’s a short, relaxed exchange that shows another side of Willink: the fight fan.
▶ Watch the full episode: Jocko Willink – Extreme Ownership
Why SEALs fight
Brian asks if SEALs are drawn to martial arts because rolling on the mat with someone like jiu-jitsu champion Dean Lister is about as close to life and death as training gets. Willink keeps it simple: SEALs like to fight and like to train, and if you want to know how to fight, you have to train.
The day he got choked
He then tells the story of his introduction to jiu-jitsu. He was about 19, in 1992 or 1993, when an older SEAL master chief who had been training with the Gracies in their famous Torrance garage started rolling with him. Back then, Willink says, nobody knew anything about jiu-jitsu. The master chief was only a high-level white belt, but he choked and arm-locked the young SEAL at will.
That was the moment Willink understood: “this is a legit power.” He decided he never wanted to be in a situation where someone had that power over him.
A contest of athletes
Brian asks how he has seen the UFC change since its early events, when fighters from different styles met for the first time. Willink says the learning curve isn’t as steep anymore. In the early days, people who didn’t know jiu-jitsu were simply beaten by Royce Gracie, regardless of size. Now everyone knows jiu-jitsu, wrestling and boxing, so it’s increasingly about who is the better athlete.
He finds that a little less fun to watch, but he believes creativity will still matter. His analogy is guitar: post an ad in any music shop and plenty of people can play all the songs, but very few can create something new. The fighters who can take the basics and use them in new ways will still stand out.
What makes McGregor different
Brian mentions creative fighters like Jon Jones and Anthony Pettis, and asks about Conor McGregor. Willink thinks McGregor has a genuinely creative mind for the sport, something he believes you’re largely born with. Plenty of fighters, even champions, never show real creativity, he says. McGregor is confident enough to be creative, and he’s a real showman.
What about the mental warfare, the way McGregor gets into opponents’ heads even when they know it’s coming? Willink is clearly entertained: he’s getting after it, and it’s fun to watch.
What to take from it
Willink’s story about being choked as a young SEAL is a neat illustration of his wider philosophy: when you discover a skill that gives someone power over you, learn it. And his point about creativity applies well beyond fighting. When everyone has the same basic skills, the edge goes to whoever can use them differently.
Who is Jocko Willink?
Jocko Willink is a retired US Navy SEAL officer who served for 20 years and commanded Task Unit Bruiser during the Battle of Ramadi, receiving the Silver Star and Bronze Star. He is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt, co-wrote the bestseller Extreme Ownership with Leif Babin, and hosts the Jocko Podcast.
In the full 2016 episode, he talks with Brian Rose about leadership, discipline and ownership. You can also watch another clip from the same interview: Jocko Willink – The Battle Of Ramadi.
See everything Jocko Willink has done with London Real on his guest page: Jocko Willink on London Real.
More on London Real
Transcript
Transcript: Jocko Willink – On Conor McGregor, Jiu-Jitsu And The Future Of The UFC
0:00 Jocko Willink: You already got me thinking about it. Cover and move. Cover and move.
0:03 Brian Rose: Let me ask you about jiu-jitsu, your black belt. I’m wondering if rolling on the mat with a guy like Dean Lister is one of the closest things you can come to a life-and-death situation. Is it true that a lot of SEALs are drawn to martial arts because it’s so real?
0:24 Jocko Willink: SEALs like to fight and SEALs like to train. They like to know how to fight, and how are you going to learn how to fight? You’ve got to train. So without a doubt. The first time I ever trained with someone and got choked, I was 19 years old, I think. There was this old SEAL master chief who knew jiu-jitsu. This was in 1992 or 1993. I didn’t know anything; no one knew anything. And he’d been training with the Gracies up in the Torrance garage. He was a high-level white belt at the time, which meant he knew the basic moves.
1:09 Jocko Willink: And here I was, this young SEAL, and here’s this old master chief choking me, arm-locking me, and I couldn’t do anything. And I realised this was a power. This is a legit power. And I didn’t ever want to be in a situation where somebody would have this power over me.
1:30 Brian Rose: How have you found watching the UFC evolve? We remember UFC 1, 2 and 3, with all these styles, and reality entering people’s minds when you started simulating real combat. The learning curve was so steep. Do you think it’s still as steep, and where do you think it’s going?
1:52 Jocko Willink: It’s not as steep. There was a time when people didn’t know jiu-jitsu and just got destroyed by Royce Gracie. Bigger, stronger, whatever, it didn’t matter. Jiu-jitsu would just win. Now everybody knows jiu-jitsu, everybody knows wrestling, everybody knows boxing. So we’re going to get to a point in the near future, and we’re close to it now, where it’s really about the athlete who’s executing. I think that’s cool, but it’s not quite as fun for me as seeing the skill sets, because basically everyone’s going to have the same skill sets shortly, and it’s going to boil down to who is the better athlete.
2:37 Jocko Willink: There will still be a piece of creativity in there, because creativity can win. I always give the example of guitar. If you go to any guitar store in England or America and put up a sign saying, “I need an experienced guitar player who can play all these songs,” you’ll get all kinds of applications, and they can really do it. But the question is who has the creativity to break out and create something new. That’s what I believe will stay in the game: who can be creative, who can take the basic principles and skills and add something, or use them in a way that hasn’t been used before. That’ll be fun to watch. But it’s definitely turning into more about how good the athlete is, not how good the martial art itself is.
3:34 Brian Rose: Creativity. I think of Jon Jones in his early fights, very creative. Greg Jackson always said he wanted to keep a fighter’s creativity and not train too many fighting memes into them. And Anthony Pettis. You can see how that wins fights, as opposed to just skill level. When you see someone like Conor McGregor, and his mental game, even his creative game, what do you see that’s different in him?
4:05 Jocko Willink: I think he’s got a really good creative mind for the game, and that’s something you’re kind of born with. We could name dozens of fighters you never saw do anything creative, and some of them were even world champions. They just had the honed skills and the right skill sets to excel and win. But I think Conor’s very creative. He’s confident enough that it allows him to be creative. And he’s a real showman. So, good on him.
4:44 Brian Rose: What about the mental warfare aspect? Even when you know it’s coming, he seems to get in people’s heads. These are guys whose job is not letting people into their heads, and he still squeezes in there somehow.
4:56 Jocko Willink: Yeah. He’s getting after it. It’s fun to watch.
