Oren Klaff - How To Pitch Anything

Full transcript: Oren Klaff on London Real

6:51 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Orin Clough, who is an American investment banker, business media personality, and best-selling author of Pitch Anything, an innovative method for presenting, persuading, and winning the deal. You are the founder of Intersectional Capital, and over the past 15 years, you’ve raised more than a billion dollars for your clients and helped countless others position themselves for financial and commercial success.

7:17 You come from my old neighborhood of San Diego. Orin, welcome back to London Real. Hey, thank you. I appreciate it, Brian. But when you say countless others, they’re accountable. It’s a lot of people.

7:29 A lot, yeah. And they’re accountable. We’re doing the Lord’s work, helping people raise money, go into meetings, and stop investors and corporations from taking advantage of the entrepreneur, the operator, the guy who’s actually doing work. And when they step out to do finance, somebody needs to protect them. That’s us.

7:52 That’s you. You have changed a lot since we saw you about a year ago. We had this amazing conversation. I saw you in January. At the Tai Lopez conference, we both did some speaking there, and you were like, Brian, I’m doing big stages. I’m on the stage with Rob, Tony Robbins. I’m doing all this big stuff.

8:10 And I was like, what happened? You got famous. You left the rest of us behind. What happened, darling? So, stick to my knitting, and I got you, Brian, you are right now talking to a D-level celebrity.

8:24 I get recognized in the street. We left here and went to Denmark, walk into a hotel in Denmark, and the front desk manager in the middle of the night goes, I know you. My baseball head on low, got my baby in hand. And Cassandra’s with me, my wife is with me, we’re just traveling. He goes, I know you.

8:49 And I said, you don’t know me, don’t worry about that. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I know you. And I figured it’s my staff pulling another trick. And I got this year-old one, clap. Are you kidding me? I just walked into a hotel in some random location in Copenhagen.

9:03 I got this man up in my jock, you know, on a graph, 11 o’clock at night, a baby under one hand, but in a way, it’s great. So, I hit the street, another one quickly. I go to the Whole Foods in La Jolla, San Diego. We have a live show every Thursday. I get in my coffee, waiting in line, trying to get some egg whites down. I look up, and the guy goes, you’re a whirred clap.

9:27 So, just like that, coffee takes this beautiful parabolic curve into the air. It all becomes slow motion. It hits the ground perfectly, and this amazing umbrella of scalding hot coffee covers me and the people around me. So, I get recognized in the street, in Whole Foods, and it’s a beautiful thing. And so, you’re speaking now in front of lots of people, right, on big stages.

9:52 So, I really moved to big stages. Tony Robbins called me up, and very interesting. I had an impression of Tony. Did you guys have a relationship, or were you always saying bad things about Tony? Or you were saying you were always calling things out, or telling me how that worked?

10:08 I think some of the things that Tony published in the 80s have lost their relevance today. And I think I had a strong voice about that. But then Tony’s people called up, and we said no. They called up again. We said no.

10:26 And finally, we have to talk to Orin, and they said, we’re doing Business Mastery in Palm Beach. Tony would love Orin to come. And a lot of those guys want to set Tony aside. He’s very interesting. I was so impressed when I went to that.

10:43 But they want you to sell from the stage, and I do content. Like, real, high quality performance product. And so, I don’t sell from the stage, and I go, Tony, you gotta pay. He goes, fine, I’ll pay. Wired money the next day, float to Palm Beach. I was so impressed.

10:59 I used to think, Tony’s this Svengali that somehow has taken $15,000 out of guys’ pockets, and delivering them some stuff. But when I went to Business Mastery, it’s five days long. And these are companies that were spending money anyway to go to conferences. It’s motivational. They’re learning a lot. Tony’s giving personal attention.

11:24 He delivers big value. I was so impressed. He’s not taking these guys’ money. They’re getting value. He paid me to come on, I deliver real value. We brought the thunder. I took it seriously.

11:38 I flew in a day and a half before, to prepare mentally, and focus just on that. I brought the thunder on his stage, blew it up, and he’s delivering great value. So I was impressed. How long did you talk for? For the mastery, when you were there in Florida, how long did you get up for?

11:56 It’s an hour. What I like to share with audiences, and the reason I like these big stages is because they give you a chance to bring the thunder, to change people’s complete perspective on what’s possible. I just came here from a little talk at a company. When there’s 50 or 75 people, there’s folding chairs, a little bit of AV, they’re not really ready in that environment to have their mind blown. They’re ready to get some cumulative information.

12:37 I like 5,000 people. You can take their energy. It’s like superhero character. You feel that way. Someone who tells you 5,000 people is like 50, you just got to deliver it. Absolutely categorically. You feel 5,000 souls.

12:58 And it’s a dance. You’re both working with the energy together. You bring it in, you internalize it, you put it out, and it is a moving experience. In fact, I just saw Denzel Washington did a thing on the stage, and he said, I much prefer live performances than all the film stuff. I’m addicted to the live stuff, and the bigger, the better.

13:18 That’s what Denzel said. Because he’s a film guy. So it’s him and the director and some cameras, and you got to bring it in front of a lens. Totally different feel. Very hard.

13:27 You’re a guy that likes to go big, Warren. I can just see you out in front of that stage just lighting it up. I don’t know what is in you. I wouldn’t say you’re a performing kind of guy, but it seems like when you got something you’re passionate about, you just want to let it rip. Yeah, so when you have the ability to reach that many people with a transformative message, and you have the charisma that they’ll respond to, then you want to use that to make the check.

13:56 I get paid the same amount. So for example, let’s say I’m doing a stage of 5,000 people, call it $100,000 check. We get that before you go on stage. They make sure you show up, you’re upright, not drinking too much. That you’re dressed appropriately, that your pants aren’t going to fall down around your knees, and you’re not going to swear too much.

14:21 And now we’re starting to see some swearing clauses. Did you swear at the Tony Robbins event? Yeah, Tony’s pretty comfortable with that. I kind of black out, but it’s congruent. So when I swear, people don’t go nuts with it because it’s congruent.

14:39 It flows with it. But say it’s a $100,000 engagement. I get paid before I step on stage. It doesn’t matter what I do. I can read the phone book. I made the money.

14:52 So what’s the incentive to transform people’s perspective on what’s possible with their experiences? And it’s just, when there’s that many people, they’re paying attention to you. Your DNA wants to pay it back. And where do you go when you’ve got an hour with people that you don’t know what level they’re at? I guess they have some level because they’re there. They’ve spent some money. They’re probably somewhere in a corporation.

15:22 But how do you know where to go? So I started the absolute beginning.

15:30 So my business is, and this is how I start all my speeches. I spend my days walking into rooms, staring down old grumpy men, usually towards the end of the day. And my job is to go in there and ask them for money and to ask them for a lot of money. Talking 5, 10, 15, sometimes $50 million. When you sit across the table from someone and you ask them for $50 million, you will find yourself in a stressful situation.

16:03 And I do this work day after day after day. And as stressful as it is, nobody is there to say, you look like you need a hug. More likely, you’ve just started talking and someone says, sorry, do you need a to-go lid for that coffee?

16:19 High performance stuff. It’s high stakes, limited times at bat. Results matter because you’ve told some company with 50, 60, 70 people that you’re going to go get them $30 million and they’re relying on that for the future of the company. And so, yeah, it’s high stakes. And so I feel like the things you learn, think about North Face, they’ve got to go up Kilimanjaro to learn about cold weather and material science and what works and what doesn’t.

16:50 So the best North Face store in the world is in North Beverly Boulevard, in Beverly Hills. But they don’t invent that stuff there. They invent it at the top of Kilimanjaro where you can die. And so that’s the same thing. I go into these situations where it is do or die and I’ve got to figure it out.

17:11 And so I start to see some of the basic elements in the human condition, you know, war, extreme environments, asking people for $50 million. These things are at the edge of the human experience. And so I started right at the beginning. What do you see in human psychology? People want what they can’t have. People chase that which moves away from them. And people only value that which they pay for.

17:36 And that’s where I start because those are the strip away the clothing, strip away the social status, the family, the buildings, everything. We’re animals. And that’s how animals respond. And so where I go next is saying that’s your job. The buyer is programmed to say maybe or no.

17:55 That’s in their genetic process. So how do we hijack their process to our advantage? Right. Now when I say how do we hijack their process to our advantage, we’ve got to careful people don’t freak out. We’re representing good companies with honest products and authentic deals. But our job is to go get the money from an investor.

18:16 And how do we stop the investor from running us in circles, from delaying, giving us delays and providing us certainty? We do that by hijacking their process and making it our process. Can’t you just be yourself, Warren? Can’t you just live on your merits and let the numbers speak for themselves? So I mean who is it? You have MMA fighters in here. Just go into the octagon and be themselves. Right.

18:48 And do any preparation. Are they programmed to respond to situations? I’m trying to think, you know, the President Obama. Hey, you know, you’re addressing the nation. Just be yourself. Well, do I need a speech or anything? No, just grip it and rip it, buddy.

19:04 Tell them, you know, your thoughts like doomsday scenario. Be yourself. Remember, I just got off a stage. I said, it’s funny. He bring that out. I go. Be yourself. Horrible advice. Do not be yourself. You are not good enough.

19:17 You would not be here if being yourself was going up like Warren Buffett. Go ahead. Fucking be yourself. That’s good enough. Tom Cruise. Be yourself. Who knows who Tom Cruise is? Right. He’s like the sibble of our generation.

19:31 But, you know, be yourself. Horrible advice because I’ll tell you why. And I’m talking about the seller buyer relationship. The notions we have about how to sell are really the opposite of how buyers like to buy. And so if you’re just be yourself, and I’ll give you a perfect example.

19:53 You come in and the first thing you do is try and generate rapport. Build rapport. Build rapport. Right. Not break rapport. Right. Build rapport.

20:09 As a beautiful bulldog. It’s like I’ve been looking at it since I’ve been here. It’s amazing. Like I wish I had a piece like that myself. Where did you get that? You can’t have my fucking money.

20:20 That’s a picture of you and Neil deGrasse Tyson. That is like one of the podcasts I love. I mean that is just I feel like it’s just so amazing that you get these interviews. And I’m super impressed by your one. I’m thinking of a line that you said which is when you fail to control the social frame you probably have already lost the deal.

20:45 Today, I’m not sure how much we talked about this last time, but information has no convincing power in today’s world. Right. In fact, I bet that if you’re selling something or you’re going to a deal, the buyer or the other side probably knows more about your business than you do. You got your nose down, forest for the trees. They’re researching it for the first time. Certainly, if it’s a product or service that you sell, they researched other places.

21:18 So you’re not going to really give them any information they don’t already have. Right. If you’re a pitch, if you’re a sales presentation, if you’re a presentation, if your ideas are based on information, then you’re telling people things they probably already know. The way to get people information is not fly across Europe, go drive across town, go to somebody’s office and give them information. You FedEx them a packet of paper. That’s how you give people information.

21:47 When you go to the pitch, you give people ideas and you change their lens on the product or service or idea that you have. And you get them invigorated with new, novel, interesting, enticing ideas. And you make yourself the center of their world for information they need to get ahead in their business. That’s why you go give a pitch, not to give people information. And just for people that haven’t tuned in before to our conversation, pitching versus selling. And you are an expert in the pitch. But a lot of people don’t know the differences.

22:22 Sure. Selling is great. It’s the rapport business. It’s the relationship. Because you got many bites at the apple. We talked about, you know, if you’re selling a copier, you’re sort of going in and say, hey, notice you guys were growing.

22:37 You know, you guys are hiring probably some divisional growth copiers have changed a lot in last year’s. You know, what do you think about this new Canon? It can make espresso, do bulletproof coffee, book you dates and, you know, cop the one of the least things it does is copy material. It can fax, it can FedEx. It can it knows if your employees are scanning their butts inappropriately and won’t print that data like these things are really good. And the buyer goes, you know what?

23:05 Not today. We just are Xerox copiers doing pretty well. But once you come back in the next quarter, we are continuing to hire and it’s something we would look at. So, you know, sales. Why don’t I give you guys some paper and we can start a relationship. Sure. We’ll take two pallets of paper. Right. So selling is sort of you have multiple bites at it. You put them in your roll of eggs. You come back in. They’re growing. You’re going to get something done. These are these are sort of small transactions.

23:31 You’re convincing people to do business with you at some level. And there’s a lot of continuity to it. By contrast, let’s say you and I want to buy the building on the other side of the road, knock it down, build something new there. We need a hundred million dollar loan from Bank of London. We walk in there. We make our proposal and they go, guys, it doesn’t work for us. We don’t like your debt service coverage ratio. And this for us, it’s a pass. Right. We cannot go. We understand. Why don’t we come in next quarter, you know, see how you’re doing. See if your money is a little looser. Picture the same deal. And in fact, if we call the day after three months later, a year later, they’re going to go, what about no did you confused you? It’s a no. So in the pitching business, no is no.

24:19 Do not come back. Right. Right. It’s binary one zero and selling. Yeah. You know, you build a relationship with time. Eventually going to sell something and the stakes are not as high. Right. So it’s a binary shot. You can’t come in with information. That’s the schoolboy error to come in with and just fill them with information. You need to grab that crocodile brain as you talked about and really shake them loose to where the old guy thought you were going to say at the end of his at the end of his life. You said the end of the day, but probably at the end of his day, it’s a good day at the end of his career, at the end of his life, Friday afternoon in conference room, probably think about his weekend. You have to snap him out of it and get him to notice you probably on a social level first. Right. Before he’s willing to even do business. Well, I mean, this is, you know, page one, chapter one of the book. Information gets into the human mind through the crocodile brain. Right. Which is scared of everything. And then it flows up into the mid brain, which is social. And if it does not believe you’re a high status individual or you have the power to control the social environment that the buyer lives in, then it doesn’t pay attention to you. And the information you have never gets to the neocortex. Right. The homeless people you don’t recognize on the street, the people give them parking tickets to data. You don’t even know they’re there because they don’t even register because your brain’s already processed. Right. The brain’s processed them out. They have no impact on my social status and my ability to create attention and additional

25:49 Value for myself. Low status people are not able to create value for you, you know, other than in the job they’re supposed to do. Right. And so your status, the job of a pitch, right, is really to raise your status so high that the buyer will give you lots of attention. Right. Give him new and novel ideas to get him excited. Then deliver your information in a very short period of time.

26:19 And then give him a test and make him prove to you that he’s good enough to do business with you. That’s the job of a pitch. Has really almost nothing to do with giving information. And it doesn’t have a lot to do with the product at that point or the company or the deal because you’re in the room because that already makes sense. And you have to just get you have to get it closed. So. So if you think about it, I think it’s really important to have a lot of information.

26:49 I think the look, I already told you, I walked down the street. People recognize me. I got an ego is as I told you before, it’s hard to find warehouses. You said that you’re actually very cool. So. OK. So. And so I think a lot about myself. Other people have a lot of respect for me. My baby loves me. You know, I don’t have much toxicity in my life and it’s it’s good. And I get a lot of social proof that I’m a good guy.

27:19 I like me a lot. But I walk into these pitching rooms and they largely haven’t heard of me. And they’re tired and they forgot why I’m there. And you’re starting with a very, very low status position. So you got to build it up. So people are like, whoa. I. I’m in the hands of a professional. This pitch. I’m getting my ass pitched off right now by a professional. It’s short. It’s concise. It is in the language.

27:49 That I use when I talk to my own business people and I’m learning things at a fast pace and I’m getting insight. This is great stuff. And I don’t know where this guy came from or who he is. But I can’t even remember his name. But I love him. And I want him to stay here as long as he can. That’s the job of the first five minutes. Not to. You know, compliment the bulldog or look at the photos on the wall and say, I also love that guy. Right. It’s to let that guy know that you have so much valuable information. It’s packaged so well that he’s going to have a huge payoff just by sitting the seat and paying attention. And you’ll see the indications of doing this right. I just had it today. Walking and meeting bags of potato chips opening. People texting on the cell phone. Sandwiches going on. Russell and people talking to each other. And I don’t have to ask people.

28:47 Hey, guys, you know, it’s going to start now if you could quiet down and get your sandwiches finished. Right. I just go and 45 seconds into it. Here comes thunder. How does that go? Like, you know, roughly. I’m not asking you to pitch, but I’m just saying, how do you start in a situation like that? So it’s really easy. Right. And in order to know good, you have to understand evil. Right. And so I would say how what I see most people do is say thank you so much for taking this meeting with me. Really appreciate it.

29:17 Appreciate the opportunity to come here. Please thank you. It’s not in the it’s not in the dictionary anymore. So the way that starts is, hey, guys, eleven o’clock. That’s the time we agreed to start. Let’s light the fire and kick the tires. Does anybody need fluids in or out? If not, let’s roll. Whoa, what just happened? Right. I think I just told me if I don’t need to go to the bathroom, this meeting is started. And then they’ll go, Will isn’t here yet.

29:50 We’re waiting on Will. Right. Will’s a smart guy. He knows he’s running late and then I’ll have to play catch up. Right. Will will play catch up as much as he can. Right. You’re here. I respect for your time. My time. Let’s kick this thing off. And then they’ll go, OK, great. Let us tell you about ourselves. You know, they’ll say, let us tell you about our situation and ourselves and want to let you know about the company and some other things we’re doing. Yeah, you’re here to give the pitch.

30:18 I have Wikipedia. And I know how to use it. Right. Coca-Cola is not exactly like a hidden secret. What you guys are doing. I look at the financials will compete and you guys have done amazing things for a hundred plus years. And in the 70s, Coca-Cola was dominant. You beat Pepsi in the 80s and the 90s. You’re going to research new Coke. You had to deal with it in the 2000s. You know, you expand it into the the procline is amazing. Switch your business model.

30:48 Like we get. But what we’re here to talk about is today’s Coca-Cola and tomorrow’s Coca-Cola in a very you know, you’re a couple hundred billion dollar company. We’re here to talk about a hundred million dollars segment of a company. What’s happening today? Why don’t we tell you our pitch, how we view it? And then in context of what we have, you can reflect back to us. We’ll give you some time. OK, so talk first is important. I think talk first is important. So when you.

31:20 When you understand the client that you’re pitching to. So the guys I work with. So there’s two kinds of guys, guys who pitch the same kind of like think about an ad agency, right? They pitch Ford, they pitch Jaguar, they pitch Volvo, they pitch Volkswagen. You know, everybody said they understand the client. That’s what. So when you understand the client.

31:41 And the client space and what their cares and concerns are, then you want to go first for sure. For companies trying to raise money, you know, they’re going out and meeting this kind of investor for the first time. It’s a we jump in there and and so if a company is going to raise money and they’re meeting the investor, they should allow the investor to talk so they can get oriented. But we know exactly what the investors issues are. So yeah, we talk. If you understand the client, you talk first, control the agenda, and then you can give them.

32:15 Their time to talk when you’re done. The reason you go first attention. Right. Right. And status to status and and attention. And a lot of people think like, wow, I can’t be that aggressive.

32:29 I can write and women will say, I can’t walk into a client. Tell them, hey, do you need fluids in or out? If not, let’s roll. You’re not to say it like that. And so you could say quite nicely. It’s 11 o’clock. That’s the time we all agreed to start. You know, the people who are still rolling in.

32:44 Can play catch up. I know I need to use a restroom. I’m going to do that quickly. If anybody else needs to go and let’s get some water going and in two minutes. We’re going to put the projector on and start the presentation.

32:56 Okay, so that’s a nicer version of that. Okay, more PC version. I people love it when people take charge, right? How many meetings have we been in before where no one takes charge? It’s just a waste of everyone’s time. Yeah, I find this refreshing. So because it says, look, we’re going to start. This is what I’m going to say. Okay, so a couple things.

33:15 Absolutely. If somebody comes in and runs this process on me and I recognize it, this is great. I got a professional here. They got they’re not going to tell me what the agenda is. They’re going to run the agenda, right? What’s the agenda for this meeting? Well, the agenda is we’re going to give a awesome pitch going to blow you back in your seat. Can tell you everything you need to know about our our product. We’re going to try and help you make a decision. And we’re going to have honest conversation about it. And the end of an hour, you’re going to know everything you need to know when to lay out some options.

33:44 And give you a chance to that’s the agenda. So you need to set the agenda. The agenda is this is going to be a professionally run meeting. We know what we’re doing. We’re going to give our pitch in 20 minutes, right? Not take 60 minutes and bore you to tears and make you wish you were somewhere else. And then we’re going to have at the end of the pitch some time for discussion. You know, and and when somebody says that to me, I’m like, wow, take me on the roller coaster ride. I love it. Right. Right. This is gonna be time well spent.

34:13 Talk to me about 20 minutes. If people that are listening, should they really work on their 20 or even 15? Because I guess if you’re new at this, you probably better get that attention quick or even get it out quick. Because I guess a lot of people have the tendency to just let it drag, throw useless information in there to be comfortable. Any of that sounds right.

34:34 Here’s a key assumption that I have. And it’s because, you know, sometimes the scientists say things and it’s not pragmatic or applicable to the business world, you know, but I don’t think there’s any disagreement. Cognitive psychologists, brain researchers, business people, academics, taxi cab drivers, the span of human attention has a stop limit at 20 minutes. Ted docks are 20 minutes, you know, and so I’ve been banging the 20 minute drum for a long time.

35:03 Yeah. But I’m going to add something to it. Only give that pitch, that part of the presentation where you’re telling people about your service, your product, your idea, your company, only speak for as long as you can be compelling. So that might be six minutes. Yeah, some Ted talks for six minutes and 12 minutes.

35:23 Yeah. So it’s not, hey, let me go for 20 minutes and then shut it off. Go for as long as you can be compelling. I don’t know if we talked about comedians last time. No, I don’t think so.

35:32 So think about a comedian that a good solid comic program is 20 minutes. Right. I love to have a Sunset Boulevard, Laugh Factory 20 minute program. Be awesome. But they start with two minutes. They’re like, I got to nail down two minutes of great material. They don’t go build 20 minutes of material and go, I got to make that 20 minutes better.

35:56 They go, I got to get a great two minutes. And when that’s solid, then I can add another minute or two minutes. They get the four minutes. It could take six, eight weeks to get the four minutes of material. The goal is 20 minutes. Right. And I learned this like sorting giving webinars, give an hour long webinar as average.

36:15 Started bringing it in, got better. You know, get down to 25 minutes. It’s tighter. It’s smoother. I know less tired.

36:23 Know the material. So bring the size and the length of your presentation down to the period of time where people are riveted and at the edge of their seats. Okay. Now, when you’re out in front of the Tony Robbins crowd and you don’t know who’s there and you have five people, you got that hour with them. I’m guessing you get their attention in a similar way, but you want to deliver value. What are the practical steps you can try to get people to switch on? Because again, you don’t want to give them information. You want to move them.

36:56 Yeah. Yeah. So I think the answer to that is providing, is raising your relevance. That’s why I say I walk into rooms and I have to do this. I do the job that you have to do every once in a while, every single day.

37:13 For tens of millions of dollars. And if I screw up, it hurts a lot of people. Right. And I work it so, you know, that raises the amount of attention and the intensity of attention that they’ll give me. But the only way to make that presentation good is, you know, I’m not a comedian. So we make it funny, but I can’t tell jokes for an hour. I don’t think any comedians, you know, maybe Chris Rock, you know, has an hour long show, whatever.

37:42 But you have to provide insight. So they got to be going, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I got to take a photograph of your slide video. You write it down, you know, whisper to the person. You’ve got to see them going.

38:01 I did not think about the world in that way. But now that you explain it that way, I understand why some things have been going wrong. Some things have been going right. There’s I know you have a worldwide audience, but there’s a show called The Greatest American Hero. Did you ever see it?

38:21 Yeah, old school. Yeah, what’s that? Okay. What’s similar age? Yeah, so the premise is the premise is we may be so old that we talked about this last time, and I’m going, did we talk about this last time? No.

38:36 Okay, so here’s how I tie it all together. This is show The Greatest American Hero. Aliens come to earth, and they leave behind a special suit that has a lot of powers with it and a manual, right? And mistakenly, a school teacher, named Ralph Cram, anyway, school teacher named Ralph, finds the suit and loses the manual, right? And so he gets into all his hijinks, but you know, it can help him fly. But you know, about half the time he tries to fly and he just crashes to the ground. The other half the time, you know, he goes up, sometimes he tries to run really fast and the suit goes, you know, he gets over other times, you’re just jogging along and he can’t, you know, go save the train or whatever. So he’s got this suit with these amazing powers, but he lost the manual.

39:24 And it only does what he wants it to do every once in a while. It’s random. And so if you’re up on stage and helping people understand some of the randomness that’s in their life, why sometimes they do it one way and it works, they go back and do it the same way and it doesn’t and it’s the head scratcher. Right? So they just they don’t, but you pull back the curtain and expose some of the mechanics of the social environment that they live in. Then they go, that’s helpful. And I can use that. Right? So it’s not just new information that you have to give people, I believe it’s information that they feel is usable and simple and accessible.

40:12 What do you say to people that tell you, I don’t pitch, you know, I don’t go in for these big $50 million deals. I’m not in the boardroom. I’m not doing a startup. I’m not going to Andreessen Horowitz and you know, pitching for the big chunk of cash. So this isn’t relevant to me. What do you say?

40:27 Yeah, I was in Andreessen Horowitz the other day. Oh, yeah. I like Ben Horowitz. I like his hip hop roots. Yeah, it’s guys are, they’re tough. Okay.

40:37 I think for some there, there sort of isn’t somebody who doesn’t pitch because you need resources to do things. Even you have even if you’re in a family and you want to take a vacation this year to Hawaii and not Ohio. You need resources for that. You need to convince them of it. And if you come in with the logical argument, you know, Hawaii is warm in the winter. Ohio is cold. It’s a good time to go. We have points and mileage. You’re just sort of start to getting in an information battle and somebody will bring as good logical reasons to that argument.

41:18 And now you’re sort of in the debate club about your vacation. It’s not a pitch. Right. And so, you know, even in that situation, I would say, you know, I haven’t thought about this. But today, one thing that is true is they are not building any more Hawaii. What they are building is more people. And Hawaii is getting busier and busier every year. Right. And I’ve even heard from people that have gone there. It’s getting a little bit crowded.

41:47 And there is a possibility that our family could wait so long to visit the Hawaiian Islands that it would just be a populated downtown Manhattan. And we will never ever experience in the legacy of our entire family, including unborn generations, the opportunity to soak our feet in the pristine untouched sands of the Hawaiian Islands and experience that the way God intended it. That’s a vacation pitch. So we’re always all or all all the time. And I mean, even to it’s a family vacation. I mean, that’s real. And yeah, you’re saying so everyone has this possible. Well, you need resources and you need people in the modern world. You need resources. You need consensus. You need people to agree with your perspective. Right. So I think you have a perspective on things. Right. And you cannot get anything done with anybody until they have that same perspective.

42:48 What’s for sure is two perspectives can never agree on a sale, on a transaction, to do something together. You have to give people the lens that you have on a situation. Right. And that requires social control and understanding how to bring people so they can see how you’re seeing the situation. You can have agreement. Right. And that’s not through information. Not through information. Social peace. What do you say to people that say, Orin, pitching is American.

43:17 We’re here in Europe. I’m here in London. Yeah. Don’t pitch in Europe. Did you did you not know that they don’t pitch in Europe? They I don’t know. They do something else. Yeah. What do you say to that?

43:30 This is like when Larry mantle, is he the boxing interviewer? Okay, I don’t think I know. Boxing interviewer is a great clip. He says to Evander Holyfield Evander. Some people say you’re too old. Washed out.

43:47 To that you say what? So to the idea that Europeans and the Japanese and the Chinese don’t pitch. That’s a social idea. I would bring it back to human nature. People want what they can’t have. People chase that which moves away from them. And they only value that which they pay for. Right.

44:11 So the comedy works in Europe. Comedy works in China. Comedy works in Japan. Rock music works in China. Rock music works in Japan. Rock music comes from Europe. You know, for Christ’s sake. So the things that tickle and tantalize the receptor of the human mind work. Right.

44:33 And so whether it’s Papua New Guinea, whether it’s Europe, you give you you offer somebody something, make them very desirous of it and then tell them they can’t have it. They’re going to react to that. Okay. No matter where you are. So I you know, the overlay, maybe the way I’m doing it is too much. Right. But I can dial it back. I got to know. I’m here with Brian and his studio.

45:01 I can do whatever the fuck I want. Right. When I walk into Bank of America, I got, you know, I can’t run around throwing F bombs, you know, throwing back a beer, kicking over furniture and telling Bank of America, they’re going to run it my way. Right. Or the highway. I have to have to be appropriate.

45:20 You have to be culturally aware of the social cues. But the whole concept of the idea is still the same. Papua New Guinea, I still got a pitch to get that sweet potato farm. And I’m still going to do it. I might know that I need to, you know, maybe give a nod to this elder here before I go in or something. But it’s still the same thing. Right. Yeah. And I agree with that. Something you said there. People want what they can have. Chase what moves away from them. Only value what they pay for. It’s like all these things are going off in my brain as far as like each one of those in my life has meant something to me.

45:49 There’s a simple things to say, but nobody really says that stuff like you do. You know, can you go dive into those statements a little bit more? Why do we chase what we can have in the pitch? You want to give them something and being like you got a chance to do it now. You know, tell me where all those ideas came from.

46:07 So I heard this amazing program on NPR that really I mean, this does exactly what I tried to do for people is it clarified something I didn’t understand and it was about drugs. Right. And so they say, like, you think about heroin, you think about methamphetamine, you think about cocaine, you think about stimulants. You know, why do those work? Right. Because there are receptors for them pre-exist in. Right. So there’s receptors for cocaine. So when you put cocaine into the system, it gets into the receptors and fires them. Right. And and creates, you know, neurotoxins or whatever to be released and gets the result of.

46:50 But why are those receptors there in our brain? Because our body produces that stuff. Right. And so the receptors are there to receive whatever’s in cocaine at some level. Just the manufactured cocaine over saturates them.

47:07 But the receptors are there because our body naturally produces those stimulants. And so the. In answer to your question, you know, there’s the the condition. So like I’m not smart enough to do hypnosis or NLP or touch somebody on their left shoulder and see if they’re looking up. And I’m not a trained FBI profiler. I’m a fairly basic guy. I need to do things. You know, and when you’re in a selling, you know, see you’re in a conference room selling to a bunch of old guys.

47:43 So much going on like you’ve got to deliver your presentation. You got to remember the facts about what you have. You’ve got to control your behaviors. You’ve got to settle your nervousness. You’re tired maybe from traveling.

47:57 You really need to deal. So you have to control your you’re managing a lot of stuff. And so I need simple things to do and understand. And so there’s huge receptors in the human mind for desire. Right.

48:12 And when you when you create the opportunity to have something and then take it away, that creates response. So I can do that. Like I wrote in the book, you know, BMW even does that at the showroom level. They paint. They have a special paint. They put on the car and then they make you sign a contract that you’ll take care of that paint.

48:32 Well, you can’t if you don’t sign the contract, you can’t buy the car. Right. And offer somebody something awesome and then pull it back and tell them you they haven’t been approved to get it. So the reason I love that is it’s a there’s a very strong receptor in the human mind for that setup. And it’s easy to do. Okay. Okay. So so it’s it’s prominent, easy to access.

49:03 Easy to see when you’ve done it correctly. And the value of the response is very high. I think those are the reasons that I love it so much. Easy to do. Simple to measure and manage.

49:18 High value response and whatever the other thing I said was right. Okay. And that’s that tell me this last one only value what they pay for. You know, I remember I was staying away from meditation and transcendental meditation was out there. And I remember I went one time and the guys like how much does it cost guys like 5% of your income. I was like what? So like I stayed away from it. And I remember I went back later and I ended up paying like something like $1,000 or something for this class. And to this day, it doesn’t I don’t know if the value was there. But since I paid for it, I took it seriously. And I went through the course and now I still practice it today.

49:54 What do we learn from that? Yeah. So, you know, you should have a cognitive psychologist on the show who actually understands how the synapses and chemists. Yeah, I’m a banker. I care about the brain, synaptic responses, chemistry of the mind to the degree I can make money with.

50:13 But, you know, I’m gonna, if I’m gonna spend time at work, I want to make money. That’s my job. Okay, so the When you give somebody something, right, then they go, they have it. And the people don’t want things. They want the excitement of getting it.

50:40 They want the dopamine rush. That’s why I mean, you come, we talk, you come to my office where we have a warehouse attached. There’s 20 motorcycles in there. Right? Why is one not enough? I get it. I rode it three miles, put it over there. Excitement, Waynes. Get on the eBay.

50:58 Bid. Oh, I can’t believe that guy bid against me. Oh, it’s in Europe. How am I going to take it apart in pieces? Ship it UPS to the United States, find somebody to reassemble it, take it out for a ride, make sure it all works, have it serviced. Oh, there’s a scratch in the paint, get it fixed. Okay, it’s all settled.

51:13 Right, excitement, Waynes. And then I go do it all over again. So that’s what I mean. Once we have something, it’s the having it has no value. It’s the the experience of acquiring it that gives us lift. Right? And so when you give somebody something, the it’s over. Right? And, and you’ve ended the experience. And so when you have, you know, in the way that I use people value that which they pay for, I don’t always mean that they’re writing you a check. I mean, that they’re paying with attention by moving to the next step, by doing what you want them to do, and moving forward, and they’re under your they’re working in your system. Right? So if you go in to present somebody, you know, say, say an offer to invest in your company.

52:12 And at the point that you give them that opportunity, say, if you write me a check for $250,000, I’ll give you 5% of the company, right? You’ve given them that opportunity. And they go, thank you. That sounds great. Send me the paperwork. We’ll continue to look at this. If we have any more questions, we’ll contact you. Right? Because they have it.

52:38 And the chase is over. If you say to someone, we are going to take $250,000 into our company, we’re considering you. Right? We don’t know enough about you to take the money. So we’re not giving you that opportunity. But we’re considering you. And we’re giving you the chance to explain why you would be a good investor.

53:04 And I got three other meetings on Sandhill Road. And I got three other meetings to get to not to be rude. But we’re an early stage company. You know, we’re going to take in money. You’re an option for us. Right? So either you’re an option for us or, you know, he’s going to feel he had the second somebody has an option.

53:24 They’re going to say, that sounds good. Set it aside and look for better pricing, other opportunities, or just sit on it. Right? Okay. Don’t give away free options. Give away free options. That’s, you know, so people only value the opportunity if they’re paying for it with attention and, you know, being connected, responding quickly.

53:53 You know, if they don’t feel like it can be taken away, then they may not respond to your emails. They can sit and stew. They can essentially cause you a lot of pain and discomfort by taking away your certainty. Right. Now, we’re both you’re married, man, you got a son, I’m taken as well. But last time you were here, I kept bringing up the similarities between pitching and pickup. And, you know, I couldn’t let you leave without me doing it again, because I was saying, well, most people say they don’t pitch.

54:22 But every guy that’s ever met a girl was pitching. That’s really quite simple, what he was doing. And so they have a lot of experience pitching. And I guess you could argue women probably pitch to maybe in a similar way or different way. And so there’s the takeaway. There’s this, there’s that, you know, I had to bring it up. Is there similarities there? Is there is that a way to look at it or is this really a business transaction?

54:42 I think the parallels. I mean, what I did is I sorted out where the parallels are and where they are not. So let’s take a look at, you know, a clear principle of pickup, which would sort of be peacocking or, you know, gaining attention. You cannot can’t walk into a boardroom wearing a feather hat, moon boots, a giant watch and a Mercedes medallion. But that’s only one small part of pickup.

55:10 Let’s start processing other parts of it. Right. And it’s going to call security and say somebody let a clown in here. I was expecting some business people showing higher value. That’s some standard stuff.

55:19 OK. And so the I think the issue in the parallel between pitching and pickup is in pickup, you sort of have infinite reps times at bat. Right. And the stakes are low. OK. OK. So in a city like London, there’s almost an inexhaustible either men or women.

55:43 When you’re walking up to the blind at the bar in the London Hotel, the stakes seem high. They seem high. Right. But really, what are the consequences? OK. Right. They seem high because they’re emotional stakes. Yes. Right. But the consequences actually probably better for you.

56:00 If she shot you down, you go home, get a good night’s sleep, stop drinking, you know, all kinds of benefits to that. Not OK. OK. So I mean, you know, what are some of the other principles? Right. Nags. Yes. Takeaways. Takeaways.

56:16 Nags. So it’s putting someone down, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, very delicate. So I do nags. You go into the Nikia building. Right. And they’re construction in the doing some construction in the lobby. I go up to the 10th floor. It’s beautiful. Right. Like glass floors, automatic doors, rich Corinthian leather, you know, on the coffee table, two million dollars art on the wall.

56:43 So here’s a nag that I use today. I go, you know, I see the construction lobby. I’m glad you’re working your way up. There’s pretty shabby surroundings. Next time I come here, love to see what the improvements are. Right. It’s a nag. OK. Delicate. Delicate. But you use it. But I use it. I think so. The difference is, you know, it can be a fairly blunt hammer in pickup.

57:09 You know, where you’re risking a million dollar, a five hundred thousand dollar, two hundred twenty five thousand or five thousand dollar, ten million dollar, you know, and you’ve spent money and daylight and energy and other people are counting on you. It need, you know, the not sure even the neg is the right name. So I will call it a a ping. OK. Delicate. Easy. Right. So you’re saying there’s no parallels. I mean, what are you know, well, what else? I mean, I love this topic. Right.

57:38 You know, I think with with pickup interaction in a big way. OK. Right. So so, you know, when you when you get a customer, there’s. And they say, yes, we want to do business with you. Right. It’s a different result from then doing pickup.

58:01 You know, it’s like the dog chasing the truck, you know, catching the bumper. It’s like, now what? Right. So we have the customer we wanted. But it’s the cascading effect of landing a customer or an investment is huge. Right.

58:15 So even the results of winning a business deal are have so much impact as compared to it’s just two different worlds. OK, I want to ask a couple of things. When you have a deal, you must have had one in your career where it was it was such a big one, you know, where you were like, this is a big project. It’s going to make or break my next project, my next project. I’m broke. I got these people to pay.

58:40 And you’re going in and you got your orange cloth 20 minutes and you’re like, man, I know I’m good at this. But if I don’t make this, I got big downside. But I know I can’t project any of that needy energy or whatever it is. How do you get through those 20 minutes? How do you prepare yourself for that? Yeah, I’m sure you’ve had a few of those.

59:02 So, you know, it’s interesting today. We’re contemporaries in age. I don’t have that anymore. I walk in, kick the door open, tell billionaires to sit down, tell somebody to bring me a glass of water, you know, and it’s on. And because I’m comfortable doing that, but certainly roll back 10, 12 years. Huge trepidation.

59:22 These days, you kind of have to be that guy because they know about your book, right? Yeah. And it’s fun when you can do it, but easy, like go easy. I don’t want anybody watch this and then two seconds later get arrested. I did what Orange said. And then, you know, OK.

59:39 10, 12 years ago. So 10, 12 years ago, I think. Everybody. It’s interesting when you are working out and you know, with the intensity that you do and CrossFit, what happens is you reach some level where you’re overexerting and you start to see your internal talk get external, right? You’re like, come on, you could do it. You know, there’s things usually in the back of your mind like you’ve got this.

1:00:07 You know, come on, three more. You know, one more set. If I can just get through this. So that exertion forces your internal talk to be external. You see people kind of talking to themselves, schizophrenically. And it’s interesting.

1:00:21 So what I found happening when I get in a super high stress situation, the tool that I use is I go, little Orin needs to go back and sit on the bleachers. Big Orin is up.

1:00:37 OK, little crybaby Orin with all his insecurities and problems and situations and drama needs to go take a seat. Big Orin is up. And that works for me. OK, so I have the it’s analogous to my workouts, right? So when you’re running through Angie or something is just, you know, one of the one of the baseline CrossFit workouts.

1:01:07 When you’re working out with some Navy SEAL, you know, you’re trying to pace with him. He’s twenty three years old. You’re forty five years old. You know, you’re trying to keep up when you’re trying to do. I mean, let’s just talk about something specific.

1:01:17 You’re trying to do twenty one unbroken hundred twenty five pound thrusters, you know, which is tough work. That’s not for baby Orin. It’s short. You can live through it. But the little guy needs to step aside.

1:01:35 Let the man come through. That works for me. OK, three biggest mistakes people make when they go for their pitch. They’ve just watched, you know, your hour long piece. They get all these ideas in their head.

1:01:46 They kick down the door of the nearest billionaire. Yeah, they tell him to give him a glass of water. But, you know, one of the three biggest mistakes they make, you must see it time and time again where you’re like, you got to do this. Thank you. For letting me come.

1:02:02 Are you fucking kidding me? You prepared. You have a great product. We talked about this. You drove across town.

1:02:11 You flew across Europe. You flew across a continent. You dressed yourself. You you paid for the PowerPoint presentation and the collateral material. That guy should be thanking you for the preparation, the consideration, the time.

1:02:27 And he hasn’t guaranteed you anything, but you’re giving a huge amount. No, thank you. OK, don’t say thank you. Don’t think thank you. Don’t think.

1:02:36 Just get that out of your vocabulary. What? You know, save it for Christmas. Thanks, Grandma. This is fucking great.

1:02:45 I love the clock. iPad recharging calendar toaster. Thank you so much. But get it out of your business vocabulary.

1:03:00 So mistake one is supplicating. Mistake two is not having the pitch practice as a presentation. That should be. Think about comedians again. You know, anything to do with five minute.

1:03:15 The great, the good, the decent comedians make that routine feel like it’s they’re doing it for the first time and you’re enjoying it with them. But they know every hit, every beat, every word, every pause and moment. Right. And it’s practiced. And so the good idea of comedy is make it feel fresh.

1:03:34 So I had a surprise. They say if it sounds rehearsed, you haven’t rehearsed it enough. Yeah. And you go with that line as well. Yeah.

1:03:41 I mean, I haven’t said it that way. But, you know, it should be out of the can and feel totally fresh. Right. How long would you practice a pitch typically or say you have a newbie coming in and they’re like, okay, I’m wearing, I’m giving a pitch, not total newbie, but say they’re, you know, going into the Valley to, you know, raise a couple mil and seed and then you, and you can’t make it that day and you’re sending them in alone. How long do they practice that?

1:04:06 So, so I think, um, how long is right. That’s a hard answer. You know, an hour attempt, but here’s what I think. If you have slide decks and you’ve got a clicker, right. And you go into slide six, you should be able to not be able to look at the slide and go, and then this happens.

1:04:22 $8 billion fades away. If you don’t do this, right. Never lost eye contact, move to the point. Then, you know, I’m not saying every position, every slide, but there should be a couple points in that presentation, right? You say, and what happens if you don’t transmit data at one petabyte every 24 hours and have it locked down with triple redundancy?

1:04:45 Security goes cattywampus. Okay. That well-pitched and that’s a good measure. Okay. And a great way to anchor your presentation, make yourself know you’re on track and get some status.

1:04:59 And it’s so distracting. You know, I have to do this sometimes. And, um, and if they don’t have a confidence monitor for me, so I can tell you when I’m giving a big presentation and I move the slide forward, I don’t know exactly what’s on it. And I got to look back at the slide and then connect with the audience. I’ve lost a huge amount of energy and rapport and transactional equity with the audience.

1:05:23 So, um, when you really, the ultimate pitch has very limited slides or none. Well, that was my next question. So when I go in, no pencil, no pen, no pad of paper, Brian and me, no briefcase. We’re going down to the mat, me and you. Billionaire, zero in there.

1:05:47 And, um, and, and we’re just going to do it. I’m going to tell you what I have. Cause you think, you know, billion dollar bridge gets sold in 20 minutes. Yeah. Now look, that thing takes, you know, you’re, it’s a handshake, right?

1:05:58 Now the money doesn’t transact in 20 minutes. Like, let’s, you know, let’s be realistic. The deal can take on a deal that size nine months due diligence, legal, all that crap, but the acceptance that this is a good idea, the economics are solid. Um, that the, the group presenting it is good and the desire to do it. That happens quick.

1:06:18 Right. Okay. Okay. And everything else is a prop and everything else is a prop that you’re leaning against. And the less stuff you’re taking, the better your presentation is getting.

1:06:31 Okay. I grew up with a guy when I said grew up, I learned this business with a guy who was already an expert and he would go to meetings. Nothing. Not a pen, not a pencil, not a piece of paper, not a business card. Beautiful.

1:06:45 Okay. Well, I need to carry a business card. Right. And he would give, and he’s, he’s an awesome natural. And then a lot of my material is packaged from what I saw him do.

1:06:57 Okay. So as few, as few slides as possible, you might need a few. Yeah, look, you know, you’re selling a nuclear submarine. You got to show the blueprint and where the propeller goes and that kind of thing. But this sort of, you know, sequential slide deck, showing slide after slide or slide, I say, you know, the thinner that gets down to zero, the better.

1:07:16 Now people, you know, see my presentation and they go, Hey, your presentation has 28 slides. Yeah, I’m not pitching anything. Right. I can guarantee if you listen to me pitch for 60 minutes, you’re going to buy something you don’t necessarily want to own. I’m not pitching you.

1:07:28 Right. When I give presentations, it’s edutainment. Right. Right. So I use slides because they, they help.

1:07:34 All right. So second one was your pitch needs to be a presentation. Don’t mistake in that. Make sure it’s, it’s tight. It’s solid.

1:07:40 You said this last time you were here that it’s, it’s money in the bank. Yes. Like a comedian would make that 20 minutes tight. Yeah. Okay.

1:07:47 And so, um, one thing that is new from last time, I think, uh, people see me and they see a lot of the intensity and, and that’s good. You can be as intense or more intense. You have to have the other side, which is the humility and the humor. Right. You can amp the intensity even way, you know, call my intensity.

1:08:09 I mean, rank it one out of 10. Oh, where you can go. No, where I am. Oh, now you’re like five or five. Okay.

1:08:16 Well, you know, uh, uh, when you see, okay, I’m at six. Right. So if I’m going to go to an eight, that’s fine. I got to get the humor and the humility up as well. Okay.

1:08:29 So you could continue to amp up intensity, but you have to provide the other side, which is the release. Okay. Otherwise it’s, you know, creepy and weird and, um, overbearing. Okay. And this is new for you.

1:08:43 These are new thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. And this came to you as it helped with getting a little older or is this just more things you noticed and you were like, Hey, this can work better. This I’m getting more into comedy.

1:08:53 Okay. You are. Yeah. Do you have your own five minutes? Uh, I’m working on it.

1:08:57 Okay. I did five minutes a few years ago. Yeah. Did you? It’s fun, hard fun.

1:09:02 So, uh, I hired some writers from some evening shows and he wrote some comedy and in some of my talks, I started putting that stuff in. Okay. Uh, so let me see if I can, I can think of one. Um, I give a, a. Present, I give a sample presentation on a mop, you know, just to explain how to pitch, you know, any kind of product, right?

1:09:25 And I say, you know, this kind of mop is good for a $200,000 cleanup. If you want to know what a $200,000 cleanup even looks like, imagine Lindsay Lohan’s mini bar tab. Right. And so, yeah, okay. Yeah, I got it.

1:09:39 Got it. All right. Edit that out. It’d be your first edit. No edits.

1:09:43 All right. So, uh, so we increase your intensity is okay, but bring the comedy and the humility with it and then it goes well. Yeah. Otherwise you just get to be, it can go too much. And I’ll make a, did you watch the movie?

1:09:54 Um, we could be King. Oh, that sounds familiar, but I don’t know. It’s a documentary on that Philadelphia high school football team. Okay. That lost like 64 games in a row.

1:10:04 They took away their budget. Like these guys in terms of being losers, these guys were losers. Right. Then like everything was a shambles and then you have a budget for a team and a coach comes in and he just goes hunger and humility, hunger and humble hunger and humble. Uh, and, and so that’s, you should watch that documentary.

1:10:26 So if you going to be big, larger than life, aggressive, set the agenda, let people know what’s acceptable, set the parameters, control the social situation, great for not to feel, you know, over the top and overbearing. You have to have that humble, humorous ability to have humility. You have to offset it with some other assets. You know, otherwise it’s just, um, uh, you know, people can get a sense that, you know, you are controlling, you know, the social environment, you got to make them happy to be there.

1:10:59 Okay. Speaking of losers, a lot of people are watching, you know, men and women, and they’re going to be like, Orin, I couldn’t pitch a tent, you know, I can’t do anything like this. I don’t have the confidence. I don’t have the skillset. I can’t talk.

1:11:12 I can’t get up from an audience, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I’m sure you’ve heard this before. What are you talking about? I mean, who can’t, I don’t know if I agree with that, right? You, I think, cause people have resources, right?

1:11:23 And in order to get resources in the modern world, you have to explain to people, you know, options and somebody has to vote for you, you know, along the way, so I think, you know, people are doing it today. Oh, so I would say they are pitching and rather than adding things, the great place to start is take things out and that will make whatever you’re doing better. Take out the neediness, take out the thank you, take out the please, take out time, right?

1:11:52 So, you know, if there ever was a expression or a institutionalization of less is more, this is it. Make it shorter. Stop displaying weak behaviors, neediness, right? Get, easy thing to set the little boy and you aside. Let the big boy come out, a little bit of self talk.

1:12:17 Get inside your head and say, there’s a million, maybe, you know, there’s, there’s thousands of clients. There’s one of me, right? This client can go. I’ll still be here. He’ll miss out on working with me.

1:12:29 Let him work with some other schmo. I’ll work with the next line. You know, so these are things that you can do to improve the, the pitch. Right. But if you want to get into some pitch mechanics, some things that actually you, you know, if you say, I can’t pitch, I don’t know the fundamentals.

1:12:51 Some easy fixes are the describe. So give us an example of a situation that average guy says, I can’t pitch, but I have to pitch would be in. I, my landlord wants to raise my rent and I can’t afford it. I don’t want to move out. I need to convince them that I should stay with the rent not to go up.

1:13:14 I mean, I think I would, I think I would call that begging. This is what it is. Right. Like, Hey, I need your mercy. There’s a new job that opened up at work and I really should be the one to get it, but I think they’re going to give it to the other guy because they like him more and they play basketball with him.

1:13:30 Yeah. Okay. That’s good. I think I’ll go to the manager and say, Hey, I know the new jobs up and I recognize there’s a range of people that are a good fit and on that totem pole, I might be at the top. I might be at the bottom.

1:13:47 I might be in the middle. You know, I’m sort of honest with myself about where I am as what I wanted to share with you, as you look out in terms of filling this position, I understand it looks very straightforward. Who do we have a relationship with and can rely on? Who has been here the longest? Who’s up sort of for promotion and who will be good at the job?

1:14:14 And if an hour in your shoes, I might look at it the same way. And if I looked at it the same way, I would say that’s Bob hands down. Right. However, I believe because some things have changed and I do this work every day. The choice is not that straightforward.

1:14:34 It’s actually a much more difficult choice than it looks like. It’s not as straightforward for the following reasons. So you have to introduce a problem that is new, right? That you have it. So it’s a problem before a solution.

1:14:54 So I think what most people do and say, uh, Hey, present the solution. Okay. I’m really good at this. I’d be a good fit for the job. You don’t have to give me that much of a raise.

1:15:05 Um, could you please, you know, throw my resume in the ring? Right. But that’s just solution. You have to have a problem before solution or problem then solution. Nobody cares about a solution until they understand how difficult the problem is to solve.

1:15:21 Okay. So you might be making a mistake here, which is a big problem. It, so be careful, right? It looks very straightforward. Right.

1:15:31 And with the, um, the way it appears today, it looks easy. It’s Bob and I can see that. However, it’s not as straightforward as it looks today. You have to know how to do Facebook advertising and it’s not Bob, but everybody from the top floor doesn’t have exposure to that if you put, and here’s the problem, somebody without Facebook advertising experience in this position, it’s going to cost $250,000 extra to get the same amount of revenue. Okay.

1:16:06 And that gets their crocodile brain like, what? What? What? This, yeah, this is a new information, right? Make a, you know, make the logical choice.

1:16:16 Here comes pain. Okay. I would summarize it like that. Okay. So problem, you got to introduce why the obvious choice, um, is going to lead to problems.

1:16:28 Okay. Um, I could ask you here to, uh, tell war stories of the greatest Orr and Clough pitches that ever ever were. And maybe after we finished filming, we can, I’m sure you got a few zingers and maybe we can get you for a few, but I would also love to hear about the pitches that didn’t go well. Maybe they’re recent, maybe they’re not, or things you learn from them by dealing with people in a certain way, you know, a little humility factor, but I’m, I’m sure that people can learn from those as well.

1:16:54 And would you be willing to share anything with us? Uh, yeah. So, uh, I give you a fun story. Don’t think I’ve done this on film before potentially trouble causing for me. Great for you.

1:17:09 I get a phone call. Warren, would you be interested in speaking for a decent amount of money at the American utilities association in Houston, Texas? Okay. For real. Are you making that up?

1:17:24 For real. For real. All right. Okay. No, I’m going to do that.

1:17:28 Right. Can’t take my baby with me. I don’t want to go to Houston. I don’t want to go to Texas and I don’t want to talk to the utilities commission association, whatever it is. Okay.

1:17:41 Would you be interested in having lunch with Emmet Smith? Uh, Emmet Smith, the three times, Dallas Cowboys, Super Bowl winner, MVP during the Super Bowl, most amount of yards rushing in the NFL ever winner of dancing with the stars. Uh, um, and sort of most famous NFL player maybe ever that Emmet Smith. I’m in. Go to the convention.

1:18:08 So exciting badge there. Orn clap Emmet Smith. I have an iPhone photo. Oh my God. This is cool.

1:18:16 We go back. Uh, Emmet has fanboys and entourage and you know, as he’s walking down the hall, they start to scrape those people off and they just lead him into a room. It’s Emmet Smith, myself, conference organizer, one other random dude. The conference organizer says, Orn, I’d like to introduce you to, I go, Oh my God, please shut this is, this is so amazing. I’m let me compose myself.

1:18:42 I never ever thought my life like, Oh, this is great. I never thought my life, I would ever be able to meet Randall Cunningham. And Emma goes, you, you what Eagles fan? No, not really. And, and so I ain’t Randall Cunningham.

1:19:05 And so that, you know, talk about frame control. Cause if I just go, Emmet, you’re amazing. Can I get your heart on my chest? You know, you’re amazing. Then he just goes, some fan boy, uh, just another dude that forced me at some convention to have lunch with him, phone in, he was really faith-based, phoning answers.

1:19:23 And, and so I stayed on Emmet’s jock for 45 minutes would not get off of him. Finally, he goes, son, what’s your name? What do you do?

1:19:36 So that was a fun, huge win. Okay. And you call it what you did. You pretend like he was a mother guy for 45 minutes or, uh, no, but no, you were just on him for, I was stayed on him for other stuff. You stayed on him.

1:19:48 What does that mean? Uh, so I go, Hey, you know, I’m putting together this presentation with like a Tupac hologram, right? And I’m thinking of moving that to the left side of the stage and doing like a Emmet Smith hologram on the other side. And then I can have those guys out and do a battle. Right.

1:20:04 And he goes, he’s kept bringing it. I just kept bringing it. So he goes, well, why don’t you just use my body when I won dancing with the stars and put your pinhead on top of that. That’d be a good, uh, uh, stage battle. Right.

1:20:16 Just like, you know, it was very, and the one other random dude was, he was constantly going, uh, so Emmet, you travel much? Sure. We’re leaving attention. Right. And you were breaking rapport, breaking rapport, breaking rapport.

1:20:27 Okay. On him. So I’m like, he is going to ask me my name and what I did. What you do. And 45 minutes later, you did.

1:20:34 Took a long time. Okay. He did not care about it. I don’t want to call that a twisted social experiment. Okay.

1:20:40 Yes. Can we edit that out? Please? Joe, edit that out. Did I sign a contract again?

1:20:47 Uh, uh, come to the Brian Rose show and get yourself in trouble. Yes. All right. But that’s not a failure. Right.

1:20:54 Go into the failure. Yeah. Let’s talk about failures. Emmet Smith goes on stage and the way I like to spin it is, you know, my opening for Orrin Klaff is Emmet Smith because on the keynote and he was a before me, so he’s open. He gets on stage.

1:21:13 It’s a good presentation. Very motivational, fairly simple, inspirational, but you got Emmet Smith giving a presentation in Texas. Right. And the crowd is like this. I mean, he could be reading them the phone book, Johnson Jones, Jehoshaphat.

1:21:35 And they’ll be like, Oh my God, read the J’s again. That was amazing. They laughed. They cried it, you know, they love it. And so it runs a little bit over presentation ends.

1:21:45 I mean, uh, he goes off stage. Everyone leaves three little old ladies, you know, the little old ladies in conference that paid their $750 and like, I’m going to see every last speaker. I want to watch the janitor cleanup. Right. For my money.

1:22:01 That’s so he, he burnt everyone out. You know, I get the motivational time. I’m talking about actual finance, the things these guys need to go. But they, so, so I learned there, I mean, colossal frustration for me, I got flew all the way to Texas, takes two days. Um, you know, I took their money and, and I gave a ho hum presentation.

1:22:23 You know, cause there’s no audience feedback, three little old ladies. Uh, and, and I was sort of one more, maybe not depressing, but, uh, down emotional experiences of, of my life is taking, you know, I have things to do with two days of my time, not talk to an empty auditorium to make 20,000 bucks. Right. And it’s just, you feel like you’re profilatizing. You feel like, um, you’re wasting time.

1:22:47 Feel like, you know, you’re not a real speaker, the real speaker cleared out the audience, so that was very painful. Okay. Yeah. Interaction with you, the audience is super important, right? Yeah.

1:22:58 Cause you don’t want to waste your time. Yeah. Okay. And you want to really deliver value. Yeah.

1:23:04 And so, and so, uh, uh, if you think about the validation you get, um, from being, you know, got the, with your buddies, you know, for a beer and you tell a joke and they laugh at it and they make fun of you. You know, uh, Hey Brian, I saw the interview, you know, with Dorian Yates and you know, you work out, but you couldn’t really tell, you know, in that interview, right. And you can go, Oh yeah. You know, um, uh, you know, I saw you at the gym the other day and that was a good four pull ups.

1:23:34 You did. You know, when do you think you’re going to be at five? You know, I saw you don’t pull up with the rubber band. That was real cute. Oh yeah.

1:23:39 Right. You know, uh, and, and so you give it and you take it and you have feedback and you have this feedback loop and it’s all social and everything. Uh, and, and so if you, if you take away that feedback loop, it’s. It’s yeah. So you, you, you got to have the audience, you know, weighing in.

1:23:56 And so, um, if they’re, if they’re not moving, you know, if they’re shuffling uncomfortably, your jokes fall flat. Um, um, it sends you into a panic, you know, cause you’re not adding value. You know, you’re, you’re there, you’re taking people’s money. You’re taking people’s time. You’re not adding value to them.

1:24:16 This can be a panic attack. Yeah, no, definitely. You pitch deals all the time and you, you’re probably, you’re, the good thing about you is you’re always learning because you’re in the trenches in the trenches. So when you talk about stuff, it’s not like from 10 years ago, where I used to be the guy because you are the guy and you’re still going to be the guy. But like even you’re learning stuff.

1:24:34 And I, I know you told me, uh, kind of in our, our, our pre-interview piece that, you know, you’ve learned even recently that sometimes say you’re going to pitch a Silicon Valley person, you have to have all the details right. Because sometimes you don’t even get to the Andreessen’s and sometimes something will get flagged early on and you’ve lost your chance. Is that something people can learn from? Or can you tell me about situations like that? So it’s like details that, yeah.

1:24:57 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I call them red flags. What’s red flag? So, um, a red flag is, I’ll give you a perfect example.

1:25:07 In Silicon Valley, there’s this term, a series A, right? So, Hey, we’re raising our series A. Yeah. Okay. Uh, today a series A is actually a pretty mature round, right?

1:25:21 So companies going out looking for 300, $500,000, even a million dollars. That’s a seed round, right? So they have, uh, the product may be, you know, sort of built it’s in beta. It’s a couple of trial customers. You know, revenue is less than a hundred thousand dollars.

1:25:38 Um, the, there’s some, there’s some anchor customers, but there’s still a huge amount of risk and it’s not a going business. That’s a seed. So coming in and saying, Hey, we’re, we just come out with our product. We have $50,000 in revenue. We got 3000 users and we’re trying to raise our series A huge red flag.

1:25:58 They don’t even know the lexicon. Right. You know, so I’m going to think, you know, another red flag, which is easily dressing the inappropriately. So you go to the valley in a suit with the tie and all that kind of you know, you’re just, you’re not a local, right? So, so no experience.

1:26:13 Don’t know the vibe. No experience. No, no, the vibe. And so, um, here’s another one. Hey, we’re coming.

1:26:20 We’re based in Wichita, Kansas, and we’re coming to Silicon Valley, um, to raise a significant round. Nobody in Silicon Valley wants to sit on a board and company in Kansas. There’s so much deal flow there, right? So there’s just a little, right? If they were anything big, they would have moved to a bigger city.

1:26:40 It would move to a bigger city and say, Hey, or, or when we complete the round, we already have office space eyeballed. We’re located here. Easy to attend the board. So red flags that show you’re not, um, familiar with the territory. Uh, you know, we would go through so many red flags, um, the, the.

1:27:01 Not, not understanding the, how the buyer’s prime. This is, you know, this is a huge topic is not understanding how buyers buy, maybe that’s a better way. So buyers buy like this. Um, they get an email that’s short and sweet. They respond to it.

1:27:19 They agree to a phone call and you give a short sort of six minute summary of what you have, right? And then leave them alone. They like the words that you said, but they have no evidence. So you send them evidence, a report, you know, the, the details. They want to see that, you know, buyers have learned, I believe none of what I see, you know, and half of what I hear kind of thing.

1:27:43 Um, so, uh, they want evidence that the things you’ve said are true. And then they’re willing to come to another call or to a meeting. We get like, that’s the buyer’s process. And you can’t rush any one of those. You can’t rush any one of those or the buyer goes, you’re over accelerating me.

1:27:57 That’s a red flag. Okay. Right. Okay. So understanding their process and you’re not going to see, see, I don’t want people mistakenly look at me and say, I know how to break the buyer’s process and force them to do my bidding.

1:28:15 What I can do is that each of those steps do it as well. It can be done better than competitors and exactly the way the buyer will find it comfortable, right? Right. Like, um, but you can’t break the mold on the whole process. No, because yeah.

1:28:32 So what I see is guys going, Hey, we’re going to go straight to the CEO, you know, and pitch him ain’t no way the CEO is going to spend $3 million without going to marketing, putting it through the controller, getting the CFO to sign off on it, taking it to committee, probably taking it to the board. So you’re trying to break that company’s process. Uh, and, and you’re in all likelihood, not strong enough to do it. The most you can do is have the CEO go, I really like this.

1:29:00 It has my recommendation and put you right back where you would have started you wasted two weeks going right back to where you would have started anyway. Um, so you’re not going to break in buyers, a real buyer, you know, I’m not talking about selling television sets, right? Um, but, but if you’re, if you’re trying to sell a movie to Paramount, if you’re trying to raise venture capital, if you’re trying to do a joint venture with Jaguar, uh, if you’re dealing with, uh, you know, some, uh, Taylor Swift’s, you know, people, the book of concert, like they have a way of doing things.

1:29:31 You’re not strong enough to bust it. What you can do is, is, um, um, run their process in a way that makes them feel comfortable. Okay. And those red flags that those can be flagged in and an associate could ding you for the ever getting a pitch because something that happened. So, I mean, we just had this, um, we’re, we’ve got a deal.

1:29:51 We’re raising $10 million. We’re in the term sheet, completing it right now. We’re well-known Silicon Valley company. Uh, but one of the investors, when we were out pitching it, you know, we got to go through the associate because that’s how venture firm works. Right.

1:30:03 And so the associate killed it, which was really frustrating to me because I liked to at least have a partner killing out the associate. Yeah. And so when you, some other people at the firm and we got the, you know, behind the thing and they didn’t like one little thing in the way the numbers were constructed and so the associate killed it extremely painful. Right. Right.

1:30:23 To have something killed at, at, at such a junior level. So yeah, this stuff is, you know, you got to continually scrub your presentation no matter what spaces for red flags. Right. And you learn from that and now you’ll know that for the next time. Right.

1:30:39 That’s right. Because you’re in the trenches. You mentioned Andreessen Horowitz recently. We are in a bull market of tech 2015. Those are big boys.

1:30:47 Does it get any harder when it comes to pitching than to those guys? I view it differently.

1:30:58 And you know, a 16 is in on Sand Hill road at the first exit. You go a mile down from the Starbucks, take a left. It’s in the Fairmont hotel. You just walk down, you walk in the front door and they’re there. So is NEA.

1:31:15 Um, you know, so are, so is Palo Alto partners and 17 other venture firms. So it’s, they have so much deal flow and so many choices and there’s so experienced at doing one kind of deal. Right. Uh, I sort of almost imagine a, uh, the buyer of say, you know, oranges, you and I buy an orange, we’re like, I don’t know. It’s a care orange.

1:31:41 It’s a Valencia orange. It came from Australia, came from Mexico, but people really know that they like pick it up, they like caress it. They listen to it a little bit. Right. And they say, you know, no, or like fish buyers and the Japanese, like they know.

1:31:53 They just take one look at it and they pattern match and they know exactly what it is. They have so much deal flow. Um, they know exactly what a good deal looks like. They, um, have so much capability. They have so much power.

1:32:06 It’s, it’s, it’s that, um, they have a, a wealth of options and so they’re going to control the relationship. Right. So what I would like to do is take that deal to somebody in Wichita, Kansas, a private equity firm or venture group there that doesn’t have premium deal flow that doesn’t just go to Starbucks in San Francisco and pick up three deals. Right. Uh, and so I think they just have such a wealth of supply that it’s, I viewed as supply and demand.

1:32:38 Okay. You didn’t answer my question. Are they hard to pitch to? Uh, they’re extremely hard to pitch to because they have so much supply. Right.

1:32:47 And they get the best supply and they get the first look. They get the best supply. They get the first looks, they get the premium deals. And so if you, um, um, they probably have more information than you do about your product, more information about your industry, what works, you know, they’re going to infantilize you and they’re not really going to appreciate you. Right.

1:33:06 You go to, uh, you know, someone who’s geographically, you know, further removed, they got to work harder because they don’t have just the richness of deal flow. Okay. So work smart. Yeah. And that standpoint, um, can I ask you a few questions about you, your success.

1:33:21 And some of your success over the years. So it’s just Brian Rose’s success where you wear somebody down with all these technical questions and have them, uh, you know, get a little bit nervous about the things they’ve seen on the interview. And then you go, let me ask you some personal questions, you know, in hope of really getting some juicy stuff that you can then cut up and, and screw with people’s minds. The Brian Rose system. You can use this system too for $9.99.

1:33:44 Now, uh, yes, that’s exactly what it is. Okay. You personally, Orn Koff, is there parts of your daily routine or things you’ve changed over the years that gave you like a big advantage just over your own self, um, that you noted. And you were like, wow, when I, when I started doing this differently, my success came.

1:34:19 And much, much more. What does your family think of you? Pitch anything?

1:34:40 You know how your family, they have formed their opinion of you. It was formed, you know, before you were 18. So I was just like, before you were eight. Yeah, we were eight. So I was just like, you know, crazy Orn, he can’t get stuff, you know, can’t get his life straightened out before he was 18.

1:34:54 And, you know, likes pickup trucks and loud music and, you know, and this, they’re just now starting to see this, this serious side. And because what will happen is somebody will come in like to my mom’s practice and say, you should read this book, right? It’s like related to your field. You know, here’s pitch anything. She goes, okay.

1:35:18 Right. I helped write it. And that’s my son, right? Or a good business partner of mine gave a presentation a year, year and a half ago, that also was involved in writing the book. He gave a presentation up on stage, got off stage.

1:35:34 A woman comes up and she goes, you know, I liked your presentation. There’s room for improvement. I just read this book, pitch anything, right? You should read it. He’s like, fucker, I helped her write that book, right?

1:35:43 Contributed to it. So, you know, now my family and friends are starting to get third eye or third perspective on it and certain respect it more. And they’re losing the view on the 18 year old Orin and now the big boy Orin is trying to get some view up. Right. Speaking of the 18 year old Orin.

1:36:06 Yeah. Oh my God. I want to hear about that guy because I always ask people a few questions at the end about advice and you know, if you can make a phone call to the 18 year old Orin and give him a bit of advice, you know, what would it be? And what was 18 year old Orin like? Like, what was he like?

1:36:23 Was he some crazy kid? He must have been crazy, crazy, obsessed with stuff. Your mind’s spinning 100 miles an hour. Crazy. That motherfucker.

1:36:34 This is scary. Get in the hot tub time machine. Go bring that guy’s neck. You know, so, you know, the cliche is apply. Focus.

1:36:47 Like, finish what you start. I don’t care what it is. There’s millionaires in tiny little towns with 350 people in it. You can accomplish all your economic needs wherever you are. The grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.

1:37:04 Just finish what you start. Commit, honor your commitments, you know, push through and finish what you start. So that’s one for sure. To him. That’s a to him.

1:37:18 Yeah. Focus. Finish what you start. You want to focus on that back then? No, right. For sure.

1:37:24 You’re not elaborating. Here’s how here’s how not focused I was. So me and eight buddies decided on spring break when I was 19 in college to ride our motorcycles from University of Delaware to Daytona Beach. Bike week spring break. It’s a good 20 hour ride.

1:37:51 Yeah, it’s an 18 hour ride. If you pee in one hand and gas in the other. Yeah. Not a bike. I’ve driven that.

1:37:59 But no, it’s brutal. It’s brutal. It takes a 18 year old to do it. I remember passing the same truck because I had the logo on it. Whatever. At 150 miles an hour on a FZR 1000 180 horsepower motorcycle passing this truck through South Carolina and these sort of long stretches.

1:38:18 And 150 miles an hour running out of gas, refueling, peeing, getting back on the road, passing the truck again, running out of gas. So it’s a long haul. But I think two weeks before the trip, the eight guys whittled down to six. A week before two other guys, I got a can’t go, whatever. You know, the day before three guys, band of brothers, banditos, three musketeers.

1:38:43 We’re doing it together. The morning of last man standing. Get my motorcycle, maybe $150 to my name. Ride to Daytona Beach. Solo.

1:38:55 Solo. Get there and go, whoa. Right. This you’re not in Delaware anymore. And then I just stayed like I didn’t leave Daytona Beach for two years.

1:39:08 Right. Didn’t go back to college that semester. And, you know, my dad’s like, hello, semester continues without you, like, you come to Daytona Beach. And it’s awesome. So all all the glitters is not gold.

1:39:22 It was another one. Just can’t chase new shiny objects and stay the course. So I think those those are things that I would go back in time and stay, you know, pick a swim lane and stay in it, constantly shifting career, things you’re interested in, hobbies, sports, friends, you know, things that’s good to explore at that age. But you’re just a mile wide and an inch deep. That’s good.

1:39:56 Best advice you’ve ever received, business, personal. You don’t have a lot of mentors, do you? OK, so that’s another one. Like, nobody could tell me anything. I never got a mentor.

1:40:07 Right. If somebody volunteered my mentor, I would say, you know, not interested. Right. If if there was an easy way, they should run. You have to chase the mentor.

1:40:20 Yeah, right. If there was an easy way, I go, I don’t want to do it. Right. I want to do it the hard way. Right.

1:40:28 All the lessons, you know. And so that’s how I got to this. Right. And so what I would say is now I see the benefit of people who had business mentors. Right.

1:40:41 The thing is, I’m afraid of like people call themselves mentors. It feels predatory. Right. But like getting in with somebody really knew what they were doing would have advanced my career by 20 years. And so doing everything solo, having no joint ventures, no relationships and creating everything from scratch every time with very little capital, very little resources and basically using as your central tenant, a will finds a way.

1:41:15 Is the long road. OK, and it’s not necessarily the good road. And so finding some help and accepting help early on, I think, would be. You know, but anyway, back to the best advice that I’ve ever gotten, I just not I can’t think of it. I just don’t accept.

1:41:45 You know, I want to just you don’t accept advice. I don’t accept advice. I believe none of what I hear and half of what I see. I got to just beat my head against it. I don’t know what I hear and half of what I see.

1:41:57 Yeah. And that’s what you’re pitching to do. People believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. OK. Yeah.

1:42:02 And you don’t have any mentors now, probably. I don’t have any men. And I agree. The chair business mentor, you bet. You can smell that a mile away.

1:42:07 Stay away from those people. The greatest people I’ve had in this chair and I’ve spoken to, they never use the word, the M word with those relationships. This was someone experienced that wanted to help someone that was coming up. They both got something out of the relationship. But Robert Green and Ryan Holiday never said the word mentor.

1:42:25 He never said, will you be my mentor? And he never said, yes, I will. They just had a symbiotic relationship with one with maybe more experience in what area. So but I respect the fact that you didn’t. You know, there’s a race car driver, Jacques Villeneuve.

1:42:42 Get him on the show. Cool kid. And so they asked him about the current breed of racecar drivers, because now the path to being a racecar driver used to be random. Right. So the first law of randomness, there is randomness.

1:43:02 You know, it’s this you were in this series or your father did this or your mechanic brought you in or somebody needed a driver. There’s what. But now there’s these a clear almost like the NFL or like, you know, there’s there’s these schools for young racecar drivers. It’s expensive. And then there’s camps and then there’s systems.

1:43:25 And then, you know, Mercedes has a farm club where they where they keep these guys on. And it’s and so they talked to Jacques and they said, I hate that. Right. Because that is creating soft drivers. You always have somebody there.

1:43:39 You have psychological counsel. You’re on a team. You know, it’s almost like the what’s the MMA Dana White MMA show of the fighter, the ultimate ultimate fighter. You know, you’re on a team and if you’re feeling down, somebody brings you know, somebody’s there to bring you up and there’s coaching and and he’s like those kids are soft. Right. You need to have failure.

1:44:04 You need to have misery. You need to have challenges. And you need to work through that stuff. That’s what creates a champion. And like, you know, I resonated with that because that’s the route I took.

1:44:19 I ain’t getting help. I didn’t get any counseling when I was out of money. You know, early in my career, I was out of money. Nobody was there to go make it soft for me. And that formed who I am today, which is not soft.

1:44:36 If anything, I’m not soft. And it’s those experiences that formed it. So getting too much help, getting, you know, money back up, having lots of people around to counseling support and mentors. And how should I do this? Right. I can create some soft motherfuckers.

1:44:53 Right. And I don’t believe in softness. Now, I believe once you got your act organized, you know, do things correctly, you can you can be soft when you choose, obviously, with the baby. You know, he’s one years old, right? He spills his milk or something like, you know, not yelling.

1:45:13 I’m like, man up, look that milk up. It’s that whole thing. Right. Why are you crawling? How come you can’t walk yet?

1:45:19 What the hell? Right. Look at that baby. He’s two months old. You’re walking. You know one word.

1:45:23 Are you crazy? I knew three words when I was your age. Let’s sack up. By the way, pull that diaper down. Let me see what’s rolling in there.

1:45:30 Right. So, yeah, right. You can’t be on 100 percent of the time. I love the baby. I’m so kind and soft.

1:45:37 I love him very much. But that’s my choice. But when, you know, when it when it comes down to it, I can deal with situations because I’ve been through a lot. Right. You had the grit.

1:45:50 Yeah, the great. OK. Last part of that question. Yeah. You know, to the 20 year old that’s watching us from somewhere around the world that, you know, is intrigued but doesn’t know where to start.

1:45:58 But, you know, they want to be doing these. They want to be in the boardrooms, pitching the deals. They want to raise that funding. They want to get in front of these people. You know, what do you tell them to do?

1:46:06 What advice do you have for them? Get reps. You’ve got to get reps. This is when I think about I’ve shared my goal with you of, you know, within the year, being able to do 21 unbroken, 135 pound thrusters. Right.

1:46:22 If you’re watching this, go to the Internet and type in thruster. It’s a serious movement. It’s a serious move, right? It’s a taxi to an overhead press, clean to a full squat to overhead press. Clean and back down full squat to overhead press is a seriously taxing movement.

1:46:38 Right. That causes chaos throughout your whole endocrine, parasympathetic system, and it makes you you beg for mercy. And so. The the desire to do it, the willpower to get those reps, you know, to be able to do that exercise is meaningless. You have to put the reps in, get the muscle experience, get the muscle.

1:47:06 You got to feed it. You got to get the reps. Right. So there’s not sort of this one big. You know, getting study, study, study, study, get in the conference room, go pitch and nail it.

1:47:19 Right. That doesn’t have to get reps. Come back. What I do right. What I do wrong. What can I improve?

1:47:25 Prep for the next one. Get in there, you know, get be able to calm your emotions. Get yourself stable. Get your little Brian, little Orin on the bleachers. Big Brian, big Orin, you know, up in front.

1:47:38 Work whatever motivational system gets for you. And you got to get the reps and focus. Stay in it. Stay in your swim lane. Get the reps.

1:47:45 That’s what a 20 year old student today that wants to do that. You can go, you know, obviously to pitch anything dot com. We have lots of resources and people who pay attention to we care about people who try. So if people are trying, we’ll try as hard or harder to help them out. OK. And what’s going on for you the next year?

1:48:03 I mean, what what can people find from you? Can they go see you speak? I mean, like, you know, what are the what are some of the resources you have for other people? Are we going to see you on TV, on radio? You’re coming into my space, YouTube space.

1:48:15 You got studios. What’s going on with you? Yeah. So I’m trying to interview interesting people. And share the and it’s a little bit different.

1:48:27 You know, you have like a very broad range. I’m trying to interview people who can give some perspective on how to control social situations and how to make investors, buyers, companies buy stuff. So, you know, I interviewed Simon Trezellian, who is a special forces interrogator. Yeah. Right.

1:48:46 Because my interest in him is he runs agents like he finds people, gets leverage on them, you know, in the field and once he has leverage on him, make him do his bidding. We can’t do that in the business world. I love that idea. You know, running agents of of getting leverage. And so I shared someone like that.

1:49:07 For example, you interviewed Dorian Yates. He probably wouldn’t be an interview for me because I’m San Diego. But it’s like my guys are very focused. My list, the people that have a relationship are very focused on doing something important with their career now. So the physical fitness stuff, we don’t do a bunch of that.

1:49:28 You know, I care about it. Do important interviews. I have a radio show with CBS at least a minute a day. So we’re growing to 12 minutes out of Los Angeles. So we’ll see if that’s sustainable.

1:49:42 I’m doing the talks that are interesting. And I think the most important thing is, you know, if you go to pitch anything dot com and get in our system, we have a live call every Thursday. And it’s actually pretty easy to get a good 10, 15 minutes with me. If you work through our system and just ask to be on that live call, we could, you know, whoever’s listening, this could be on a call with me running down how to prepare a pitch, you know, next Thursday.

1:50:12 It’s actually pretty easy. Yeah. I say, hey, this is a situation, right? I sent this email out to a prospect. They didn’t reply.

1:50:21 And I’m wondering what’s the email I can send them next to make most likely to reply and set a meeting. We sort of grind through it and figure it out. OK. And you still like to keep in touch with those people just because it keeps your skills sharp, keeps the whole interaction going. My skills are sharp.

1:50:37 Yeah. OK. I’m fairly set on that. But what I like is that it keeps the advice that I’m giving relevant. Right. So people go on to send that email that you sent.

1:50:51 The guy responded right away and set a meeting. And I know that I’m giving people solid ideas and solid actions. Right. And and so that’s that’s why I do that live call and don’t just publish information and do videos and stuff like that. I get in there and I take the risk of giving people advice, having them go on in the real world, come back and saying that worked.

1:51:16 And when they do that, you know, then I know, OK, it’s it’s safe to give tens and hundreds and thousands of people that same advice because it’s working. You know, I think I just exposed you, Orin. You actually care. That’s that’s your major flaw. You care about the people and the advice.

1:51:34 You care about your audience, that they’re getting value from you. You care not to be the brand pitch anything and to actually give value in the business world. Am I right? I don’t give a fuck. You do give a fuck. No, I listen.

1:51:51 It’s. I think I don’t like this. This is my art form and I don’t like to see people performing this art badly. Right. And so when I see people dedicated to.

1:52:07 Getting some money or selling deal and they’re earnest and they’ve got to probably they’re just doing the art badly. I try to like, yeah, I care. I step in because I want to see the art done as well as it can be done. And I think what will be amazing is there’s some 20 year old now you know that when he’s 35, he came up to the system and he’ll come up with some new system and new methodology and improvement on this. I think that, you know, setting that setting the stage for that to happen is good. Okay.

1:52:37 He does my question again. Okay. But that’s okay. You do care. And no, I appreciate there’s a lot of people.

1:52:43 Now, I wouldn’t say in your industry because I think you’re very unique. I think people know that when they watch our previous episode and hear about you. They get it that this is a guy doing this stuff and he’s doing a specific thing here and there’s a lot of people that just make their businesses. The pitch guy or not the pitch guy, the whatever guy. You know, there’s probably hundreds of them out there and you don’t want to be that guy and you want to protect other people from that guy to a certain extent. Yeah, that’s right.

1:53:07 I think because there’s a certain when you’re the guy in your company who says I’m going to raise the money, I’m going to close the big deal, I’m going to get the revenue. Right. You’re the guy going, I’m going to the front. Right. You’re not looking for safety.

1:53:22 See in the background. You’re not in accounting. You’re not in web. You’re not in, you know, logistics. You’re not in the executive office.

1:53:31 You go, I’m going to the front where the bullets are flying and I’m going to take care of business out there where it’s dangerous. And I have a tremendous respect for people willing to do that. And those people need the best possible tools they can to survive on the front lines. Or cloth, pitch anything. Huge honor having you back in the studio.

1:53:54 This episode, our last one was good. This one is great. I think we got to see a lot of three dimensional sides of you and got some really good thoughts and tips and just I felt like I’m there. Last time you were here, I was like, I know how to pitch. I’ve been in business.

1:54:11 I was in banking and I’ve got it out. But, you know, raise some money in the past with some dot coms. But I was really shocked by how I didn’t really understand the pitch process. And I I think about you sometimes I watch our old episode before I go into pitch, the people are things like, what are you pitching here? I pitch things all the time, you know, guests, JVs, all this stuff.

1:54:30 And I always think about how am I grabbing their mind, you know, Orin style. So I’m really glad to have you back. I really like you, Orin. You are a real dude. And we’ve had different interactions in different parts of the world with different people. And it’s good to see you.

1:54:45 It’s good to have you back here. And I hope we can help do stuff with you. You know, we do some some weekly live webinars here. I’d love to find somewhere we can patch into you in San Diego and get our people talking to you because this is relevant stuff. All the people in our academy are trying to build things.

1:55:01 They’re trying to pitch things. They’re trying to build companies, be better people. And they all need this advice, you know. And so that’s why I think you resonate so well with our London Real audience, because they’re like, I can use this stuff. We haven’t heard it put this way.

1:55:13 It gets their crocodile brain. I’m doing stuff. So, you know, you’re a value to society. Well, a national treasure. I mean, the last thing I would say, just tying back into what’s your measure of success, like to get Brian Rose to say those things.

1:55:29 You can’t buy it. You can’t steal it. You can’t pay for it. Right. You have to earn it.

1:55:35 And and those are the experiences that are more than money, more than things that easy come, easy go. When I get a statement like that from Brian Rose, it’s that to me is a marker in the, you know, the history of my accomplishments, because you’ve got to work hard to get that. That doesn’t come easily. No, it doesn’t. I don’t know if I’ve ever said it.

1:56:01 So thanks, Ron. I really appreciate the good thoughts and vibes. You know, we’re just doing what we do here. I just put people in the chair. Yeah.

1:56:09 But it’s been fun and it’s been nice to see you on this journey. So next time you’re in London, come back and see us. As we say on London Real, it’s about the journey. I wish you well on yours. Like I’m going to keep watching you.

1:56:18 It’s so exciting seeing all the stuff you’re doing and yeah, all the best. Now I introduce you to my mentor, the 50 billion dollar man, Mr. Dan Pena. Good morning. They all say the same thing.

1:57:00 I wish I could have I fucking should have. I have never meditated one motherfucking microsecond because you can’t all want everybody to love me. I don’t want anybody to love me. I don’t want anybody to even fucking like me. Bad news is today is that this isn’t going to be a lot of fun.

1:57:31 This is a time to get uncomfortable. Just fucking do it. The more you hear it, the more it resonates. And so that’s so much input and so much value I can get. That’s priceless.