Brian Rose was about to fly to Costa Rica for three ayahuasca ceremonies when he sat down with Dr Jordan Peterson in 2018, and he wanted to know what the clinical psychologist made of psychedelics. Peterson’s answer in this clip is unusually humble for a man known for having a view on everything: “I have no idea what they do.”
It’s a short exchange, but it covers wonder, research, risk, and a personal story from Brian about what the experience did for him.
▶ Watch the full episode: Jordan Peterson – 12 Rules For Life
“A very thick book”
Brian notes that psychedelics had come up at least three times the previous night, at Peterson’s London event with Sam Harris. He tells Peterson about his upcoming ceremonies, and that he is fairly terrified. Peterson’s response: good, he should be.
Asked what psychedelics actually do, Peterson admits he doesn’t know. What we don’t understand about them, he says, is “a very thick book.” They bend the structure of reality, and he has no conceptual framework for them. What they reveal to him is how little we know about anything, and that, he says, is terrifying.
What the research suggests
He’s careful not to dismiss them. The scientific literature, he says, suggests that under some circumstances psychedelics can produce beneficial outcomes. He cites research on psilocybin as an aid to quitting smoking, where people who had a mystical experience during the study had a very high success rate. That’s notable, he says, because smoking is a hard problem, and it kills people.
He also thinks they can help people orient themselves morally. But he adds a blunt warning: “Look the hell out.”
Purify yourself first
Peterson reaches for an image from the Old Testament: people approaching the Holy of Holies purified themselves first. That’s not a bad idea, he says. If you have a lot of unfinished business in your soul, you might want to deal with some of it before trying to attain wisdom beyond your understanding. When Brian suggests that might be a way to get in touch with your dark side, Peterson replies: or to have it get in touch with you.
Brian’s experience
Peterson then turns the question around and asks whether Brian’s previous experiences were useful. Brian says they were traumatic but very useful. They pushed him towards giving more, starting a family and becoming less selfish. He had struggled with nihilism and with feeling detached from the world, and, like many people with a drinking problem, had used alcohol to soothe that. The experiences, he says, made him feel connected to the human story again.
Peterson says that’s a common account, and notes that religious or spiritual transformation is one of the few approaches the research literature suggests can help with alcoholism.
What to take from it
Peterson’s position is a balanced one: these substances are powerful, poorly understood and potentially valuable, so approach them with humility, preparation and real caution.
This clip is for information only and is not medical advice. Psychedelics are illegal in many countries and carry real psychological risks. If you’re worried about your drinking, speak to a doctor or a support service.
Who is Jordan Peterson?
Jordan Peterson is a Canadian clinical psychologist and author, born in Edmonton, Alberta, in 1962, and a professor emeritus at the University of Toronto. He is best known for 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos and Maps of Meaning.
In his full 2018 London Real episode, he talks with Brian Rose about the ideas in 12 Rules for Life, from setting your house in order to comparing yourself with who you were yesterday. You can also watch his London Real Success Secrets: Jordan Peterson – Success Secrets.
See everything Jordan Peterson has done with London Real on his guest page: Jordan Peterson on London Real.
More on London Real
Transcript
Transcript: Jordan Peterson – Psychedelics Reveal “How Little We Know About Anything”
0:00 Brian Rose: No less than three times last night, the word psychedelics came up, and I was kind of surprised. I wanted to ask you about that, because next week I’m going down to Costa Rica and I’m planning three ayahuasca ceremonies.
0:13 Jordan Peterson: Have you ever done that?
0:14 Brian Rose: I’ve done it three times before, five or six years ago. So I’m fairly terrified.
0:18 Jordan Peterson: As you should be.
0:20 Brian Rose: Absolutely. And again, I just want to make sure I’m doing something meaningful. Sometimes my human brain can trick me into thinking I’m doing something meaningful when in fact I’m doing something just beneficial to me. I was wondering what your thoughts were, since it came up so many times between you and Sam. What do you think about psychedelics? What do they do, and what don’t they do?
0:45 Jordan Peterson: I have no idea what they do. What we don’t understand about psychedelics is a very thick book. They bend the structure of reality, and I can’t understand what they do. I have no conceptual framework for psychedelics. I have no idea what they are. They could be anything. They’re unbelievably strange. What they reveal to me is how little we know about everything. And that’s a terrifying thing.
1:21 Brian Rose: Something to be investigated further?
1:23 Jordan Peterson: With great risk. It’s interesting: the scientific literature certainly indicates that under some circumstances psychedelic use can produce outcomes you could regard as beneficial. Psilocybin seems to be a very effective agent to help people stop smoking, which is quite interesting, because that’s a hard problem, and it does kill people. An 85% success rate was what was reported in the last investigation: if people had a mystical experience, 85% of them quit smoking. It’s pretty interesting. I think they can help you orient yourself morally. But look the hell out.
2:09 Jordan Peterson: When people used to approach the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament, they purified themselves ritually. That’s not a bad idea. If you’ve got a lot of unfinished business lurking around in your soul, you might want to clear some of that out before you try to attain wisdom that’s beyond your understanding.
2:37 Brian Rose: Maybe a way to get in touch with the dark side.
2:40 Jordan Peterson: Possibly. Or to have it get in touch with you. Were the experiences useful?
2:45 Brian Rose: They were very traumatic and very useful. They pushed me further into giving more, starting a family, becoming less and less selfish. They were difficult, but they taught me a lot about myself, and I don’t think I would have figured that out on my own, or it might have taken me a long time.
3:00 Jordan Peterson: I think that’s a common account of the consequences. What did they do to the way you looked at the world?
3:09 Brian Rose: They made me more grateful to be part of this world. It didn’t feel like a burden. I struggled with nihilism, that sense of what’s the point, nothing matters. But I felt more connected to the human experience, and that I played a part in it. You probably know from studying alcoholism: a lot of alcoholics feel detached from this world, and they use it to soothe that pain. At least I did. So this got me back in the game and showed me I needed to be part of it, not on the outside. I thought I could function without being emotionally involved with the rest of the species, and I couldn’t. Once I got that meaning online, the nihilism went away, and I feel like life has a purpose.
3:48 Jordan Peterson: Well, religious transformation is one of the well-documented modes of treatment for alcoholism. It’s one of the few things the treatment literature actually indicates works, which is hard to fathom, but appears to be the case. So that’s something worth serious consideration.
