Johnson Yeh - The Godfather of Esports: How Ambrus Studio & Web3 Gaming Will Save The Planet

Full transcript: Johnson Yeh on London Real

3:50 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Johnson Yeh, the E sports pioneer, Web 3 gaming expert and blockchain entrepreneur. You are the founder and CEO of Ambra Studio, a pioneering game development company with the mission to build the first great web three-game. Amber Studio is the home of E4 CA metaverse ecosystem that serves as a bridge between Web 2 and Web Three, with the goal of onboarding the next 100 million players into the world of blockchain gaming.

4:20 You are the former CEO of Riot Games in Asia, where you earn the title the Godfather of E Sports. Under your leadership, the League of Legends Pro League became the most viewed and commercially successful E Sports League in the world. Your ultimate mission is to use gaming as a platform to raise awareness about climate change and inspire players to take responsibility for protecting the environment. You believe 2025 will be the year that Web 3 gaming finally goes mainstream, creating opportunity to redefine player experience and expand the impact of the gaming industry. Johnson, welcome to London Real in Dubai.

4:59 Johnson Yeh: Well, that was a great intro.

5:01 Johnson Yeh: Thank you so much Brian for having me here.

5:03 Brian Rose: Look, it’s great to have you here and I want to I’ll start by saying that Amber Studio is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures, the world’s first media powered investment firm, where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting edge Web 3 and AI companies while giving our partners marketing exposure across the London Real Media platforms and academies. We heighten awareness, create customers and build communities by leveraging our global audience and extensive network.

5:27 Brian Rose: Johnson, we are super excited to be part of this journey with you. So let’s jump in. What is Amber Studio?

5:35 Johnson Yeh: All right. Thank you, Brian. Amber stands for Immortal in Greek. Our goal is to build a gaming ecosystem that can last a really long time.

5:45 So we have our marquee title in our tokens called E4C. So everything in the gaming ecosystem that we’re building surrounds E4C, E4CI actually know now that you talk about our vision stands for Earth 4°C. It stands for our commitment to leverage gaming to help the world on the issue of climate change. In fact, in 10 years ago, we’re doing slightly better now, but we are on track to increase our temperature by 4° on this planet by the year 2100, which means that if we don’t do something, there’ll be so many negative consequences. And I’m here to take the E4C gaming ecosystem to help change that.

6:35 So the name has a real, let’s say deep meaning behind it. Now, what’s in our ecosystem? It is a gaming ecosystem built on suite. Our marquee title, E4C Final Salvation is a free to play, not pay for power mobile mobile game that is designed to be the bridge between Web 2 to Web three, can take 100 million users from Web 2 and make them integrate into Web 3 seamlessly. I can talk a lot more about it, but our ecosystem is not just E4C Final Salvation.

7:11 That is the first title that we think will have commercial success, but now we’re also complementing this ecosystem with a gaming publishing platform, a multi platform gaming layer built in collaboration with Mist and Labs, the original founders of the Sweet blockchain. So it is a Steam powered by Sweet and then it is going to be a place where web three people can find fun games. It’s not necessarily play to earn, but they can enjoy games for fun on the Steam publishing platform.

7:47 And we have many, many more exciting plans like AI agents and stuff. Or talk about that later. But essentially going back to what Amber stands for, right? It is a mission driven studio that aims to transform Web 3 by being the bridge from Web 2 to Web 3 and can bring hundreds of millions of users from Web 2 to Web 3. And the way we do it is not by offering play to earn, it’s by leveraging the power of Web 3, which is the blockchain technology, which is the power of community, solve gaming industry problems and make Web 3 unique in the overall gaming industry. And that’s what we do.

8:32 And that was that’s what final salvation does. We’re here to transform the entire industry. And we’re just, you know, in the first step of that movement.

8:42 Brian Rose: You know, what I find fascinating about you, Johnson, is that you walked away from the dream job for probably every gamer in the world. You know, what you were doing the the work you were accomplishing.

8:54 I mean, it really is the pinnacle. And for you, that wasn’t enough. I feel like for you, you wanted to do something to impact the world and that’s why you’re doing this with this specific play. You know, why did you walk away from something like that?

9:10 Johnson Yeh: Wow, that’s a very good question.

9:12 I actually first started thought thinking about leaving Riot in 2018. That was a moment where I actually had a super, super lucrative offer from a competing studio. It’s the first time I ever thought about leaving, right? I was having such a wonderful ride. I was so flattered by the by the number of that. But then when I touch deep into my heart and what I want to do with my life, I realized that it’s not money, it is doing things that I’m passionate about. I’ve had three passions in life.

9:46 First, climate change. Second, entrepreneurship and innovation. Third, I really want to build a strong to see brand based out of China, especially from Taiwan where I’m originally from. So I really want to do something that can make the world a better place. And I realized that whether it’s my jobbing Riot or that lucrative offer, I can’t do all three.

10:14 So I did a month of soul search, talked to all the people around me, and I realized that what really touched my heart is being able to do some things that I’m passionate about, something that can touch all three of my passions. So I decided to leave Riot at that time and start actually my previous startup, which actually eventually morphing to Embrace. So Ambrus, right? Gaming, Web 3, climate change, innovation and then really building a strong consumer brand. We have all of it.

10:50 So essentially you can say Ambrus is the realization of my passion and my dreams.

10:56 Brian Rose: That’s powerful, very powerful. Why Web 3? Because you’re immersed in Web Two. We don’t see a lot of Web Two people jump into web 3, especially at this point.

11:09 They’re eyeing it right now, but it it always probably felt too early for them to jump. Why did you go all in on this tech? Because I doubt you were using blockchain at Riot.

11:20 Johnson Yeh: No, we were not. I first found out about it because at that time is 2021 was still part of the previous full cycle.

11:28 Valuations were crazy. I’m like Oh my God, I need to understand more about this world. And the more I understand about it, the more amazed I was by it. I realized that Web 3 blockchain technology and just the way Web 3 society and community run things is pioneering. It can change the world for sure.

11:51 In fact, I really think that the, and this is a slight of a side topic, but I personally think that the only thing that can replace U.S. dollar as a global currency is Bitcoin or some blocked decentralized coin. It could be 150 years from now, it doesn’t matter, but that’s the only thing that can possibly replace it. Now going back to the question. So yes, I wasn’t using any blockchain technology, right, but I learned about it how we’re like, Oh my God, it’s going to change the future because watching technology allows stronger emotional attachment. It adds uniqueness no and then the the fact that you can verify everything the fact that you can have trust for a start up like us.

12:42 I realized that this so powerful. It increases the ARPU average revenue per user for the skins that we sell and Web 3 Co creation, governance building with your community, it helps with virality. It helps us with user acquisition and lower our customer acquisition cost. And I realize this is golden. If I were to build a mobile, mobile game as a small studio, the chance of that succeeding if I were not in Web 3 is very low.

13:15 But now I have Web three, I have the entire community by my side. If I were to do it right, then I realized I have a chance. It’s like a David versus Goliath fight. But Web 3 helped me achieve that help. Web 3 solves gaming industry problems that traditional gaming cannot solve. And we can dive deep down into that a lot more. But that’s why I mean, Web three, I realized that it’s going to be a game changer for the entire gaming industry.

13:44 Brian Rose: I had a guest recently that said we’re going from the Internet of Information and blockchain represents the Internet of ownership.

13:53 It’s a very powerful concept. And I think people that are new to crypto, you know, they just see these tokens going up in price and they think it’s a way to make money. But when you go deep on this, and I’ve had a lot of deep discussions with Yatsu of Animalca brands and it’s a philosophical change. It’s a human shift paradigm change where there’s ownership for the first time, not only ownership of the digital assets, which you don’t have in the Web two world, but also ownership of the protocol itself.

14:19 So if people go now and buy some E4C, like you said, when the when the protocol does well, they do well and they get to be involved in the governance. Is that what you think builds those great communities in Web 3? Is it that? Is it the ownership layer or is that just one of the one of the factors?

14:38 Johnson Yeh: It’s one of the factors I think ownership is a great way for incentivization of people to support you and that’s the spirit of web three. Well, it’s not just that right.

14:48 Web 3 has so many other things that can really help you know, games, gaming industry or just even any industry. Look at for example, what’s happening now in Deeping things that I used to take Google like 10 years to do now with community driven, you can do it in a few months. So I truly believing the power of Web 3 because it is a great way to incentivize people to change the individual behaviors and leverage the entire world, the entire community for you to to help you do things. And I think that’s no, that’s the magic of Web 3. And that’s what we’re here to leverage to change the gaming world.

15:30 I mean, we are here, right? And building a mobile, mobile game that is otherwise super, super expensive to acquire users. But now we leverage Web three, we leverage the community. We realize that we can make it go viral. People will refer their friend to play the game. And then we can lower our customer acquisition cost by so much with the magic of Web 3.

15:54 Brian Rose: Yeah, we’ve invested in another web three-game called Shrapnel, completely different model people from the States. But I was sitting down with their CEO and he said, Brian, he said this is so different than Web 2 with a tenth of the audience that we would need in Web 2 or 100th of the audience. We can actually make this thing work because those individual members are so much more engaged. They’re spending more money, they’re more time, more of their attention on this and they’re hardcore fans.

16:20 And so we can make this work in the beginning with a smaller number of people. And I think even luxury brands, luxury brands make a lot of their profit out for a few people. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence they’ve jumped into Web 3. These 200 year old French brands are embracing an NFT because I think they also understand their community and how important that community is. And it looks like you’re seeing the same thing with what you’re doing there.

16:45 Yes. What is a mobile MOBA game for people that don’t know? And why make that specific game?

16:53 Johnson Yeh: MOBA stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. It more from the traditional real time strategy game into a tower defense game. I would say Dota is one of the first game in this genre which defined the genre and then League of Legend became the biggest game within this genre.

17:15 So mobile mobile game, the objective is to destroy the other side’s castle by no and then in the middle you need to, you know, chime through their like towers, kill their minions, kill other sides champions in order to achieve that. So that’s the game concept. It is by far one of the best genres or free to play gaming. It is by far one of the genres that can. In fact, there’s only two genres that can get so much audience because virality, first person shooting and MOBA in my experience from League of Legend Days from Rawl Reef Days is in the mobile space.

17:56 So I know this is the genre for me. This is the genre I know extremely well and this is the genre that I am passionate about. I am addicted to you know that you can see by now that I work for passion. I work because I love what I’m doing every day, so I need to do something that’s fun for myself and mobile, mobile, that’s it. In fact, there’s a small size story. I was one of the people who pushed Riot to have Wild Rift as a title League of Legends on mobile. We started the pushing up the push in 2016, finally got the project proving 2017 and then we were running the China team was actually running that project in collaboration with Tencent, our parent company.

18:44 In my vision at that time is to make shorter and faster easier to get into MOBA just like what I’m making out with final salvation. But you know, that vision didn’t continue for many, many reasons. But you know, so while we’re actually became a harder version than the competing titles like MLBB, like Honor of Kings in the market, but I think that vision works a mobile mobile tailored to people who’s never played mobile before. I really believe in that vision.

19:20 So nine years after my original vision, I realized that this is time for me to realize that vision. With my own hands, with the entire support of the Web Three community, I can make that happen.

20:04 Brian Rose: Wow, do you get a different type of user on a mobile than a first person shooter? I bet you do. And is it obviously that that user in that community probably gels with you and your personality more?

20:48 What is the difference between those two?

20:51 Johnson Yeh: First of all, they are both highly competitive genres, so these are the best genres for E sports. I would say overall FPS, it requires more hand eye coordination. It is more about that instantaneous response versus MOBA is a lot more strategic. MOBA essentially you know you were playing as one team FPS, there’s many people that many games that play as a team as well. But no, the amount of teamwork that’s needed in MOBA, the amount of coordination, the amount of strategy, that’s what let’s say makes MOBA a special in the competitive versus FPS. It’s more about the hand eye coordination. It’s more about, you know, being super accurate with your shots. But you know, they are similar genres in the end, where there are medium core to hardcore genres in the competitive E sport gaming space.

21:52 So there is a lot of overlap in the audience, although there’s also many differences.

21:58 Brian Rose: Now there’s something that makes you extremely different from anybody I’ve ever spoken to. And when you came and originally spoke to our group, this really stood out because you could make a mobile mobile. But a lot of the Web 3 gaming efforts are going after that high value customer, that high income customer that lives in the G7 of the G20 nations. But you from the get go said I want this to run on the cheapest Android phone with the smallest processor. I want to go after the people in, you know, in Africa. I want to go after the people in India. I want to go after the people in the smaller Asian nations. And I want to bring this to the masses. Why make that choice?

22:43 Johnson Yeh: Very good question. First of all, I decided to make a mobile mobile and that was the origin of it. And then if you look at the competitive landscape of the mobile mobile genre, there’s four big titles. They’re huge in China, CIS regions, a little bit Southeast Asia, some in Latin America, but actually mobile Mobas has not been successful in US, Europe, Japan, Korea or all the nascent emerging market. So I have two choices.

23:18 I can fight with the Golias in these very, very top value markets, which is very difficult. And then I’ll need to really be, you know, use Web 3 to earn as our main driver for us to succeed there. But I personally just don’t really believe in play to earn. I believe that play to earn will, no matter how you play it, you know, unless you can, you know, make the flying wheel. If I go so fast, you’ll eventually go into a dead spiral. And I’m, I think what fits me better it’s to tackle the other side of the spectrum, which is all the NASA emerging market. I realized that what no, no one goes to these markets because they’re not profitable, but they’re not profitable for a reason, right?

24:04 And I realized that Web 3 is the perfect solution for that profitability problem. Higher ARPU, lower customer acquisition costs and we get layer one support for us to acquire users there. That means that it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to tap into those market. India, South Asia, Middle East, Africa, 3.5 billion population there, 2.5 billion phones and no one, very, very few people design games for these guys. And I realized that I can be that game changer. And if there’s no web three, I don’t think anyone can be profitable there for the next 5 years. But with web three, I realized that it gives me a once in a lifetime opportunity to be there and be profitable. And that’s why I decided to be that game changer. I want to be the first mover that can really change people’s lives that can’t, you know, and I don’t need to fight with competitors right now because there’s no competition. And I realized that that’s the golden formula that I really think I found.

25:13 Even now. I’ve preached this for three years. I’ve not seen many other studio do the same thing. I’m like, no, the low believer or not completely, but I’m one of the few believers in this thesis. But there’s so many people that I’ve talked to, including you that believe in this thesis that believes in me. And I’m sure there’s been more, there’s going to be more people in the community that believes the same thing. So let’s try to make it happen together. Let’s try to leverage Web three to make these nice and emerging market, you know, give them a great game to play, let them have fun and bring web 2 gaming and web 3 gaming together and make Web 3 gaming mainstream.

25:57 Brian Rose: Can you talk about the regions you’re going after and what that rough road map looks like?

26:04 Johnson Yeh: Yes, we, we actually literally just launched in our first region India. We plan to being in the cultivate, make sure that we can operate at scale for the next six months or so. The second-half of this year we’re going to go into our second wave markets, the rest of South Asia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Middle East, Africa. So by end of this year, hopefully we’ll be able to cover this entire region.

26:34 There will also be opportunistic market that we want to capture, for example, where I’m originally from Taiwan that I think there’s huge potential. So we’ll be covering that within this year. 2026 is the year where final salvation can go to US, Europe, Japan, Korea, the rest of the uncompeted markets. We real hopefully will have such big scale and commercial success by that time. We can fight with the big boys.

27:04 But you know, for this year it’s about India first, then the rest of my tiger regions.

27:10 Brian Rose: And what about Southeast Asia, the Indonesians and the Philippines and those type of countries? Where are they in the road map?

27:18 Johnson Yeh: They’re further away because I have a very, very strong competitor incumbent called Mobile Legend Bang Bang MLBB. In those markets, mobile, mobile and all mobiles are similar.

27:29 Free to play genres tend to have, you know the effect where the stronger remains strong. So for us to beat an incumbent is extremely hard. That’s why we de prioritize those markets with very strong incumbents because we think that fighting against them is too costly. We want to go to markets that they haven’t been to 1st.

27:54 Brian Rose: Smart. I think it was Dirty Harry that once said a man has to know his limitations.

28:00 Johnson Yeh: Exactly so you. Want to? Part of the owners know that best.

28:04 Brian Rose: Right, go somewhere where there isn’t a market and then you can own that market 1st and then you, but you are planning on going to these G7 and G20 countries. So you do plan to go to the US and Europe.

28:16 You first want to get market share, get the users proof of concept etcetera, but then you will go there, yes. OK, All right. Now to play devil’s advocate, people say, Johnson, there’s no money in these things. These people don’t have large incomes, so how can you build a profitable ecosystem in Africa, in India? How do you reply?

28:40 Johnson Yeh: From a few angles.

28:41 First, this is a very special genre where it actually doesn’t rely heavily on paid user acquisition for most of the gaming genres, you know, go to Google, go to iOS, you know, spend your money to buy the users is by far the most common way to acquire users free to play genres that’s competitive, that’s more fun for friends to play together. So for example, FPS, for example, MOBA is the low one of the low exception for that. It can go viral. So if you have a very fun game that’s free to play and your friends are playing it, you’re going to play it too.

29:24 So that’s the power that we’re work hunting on that. Once we get to critical mass and we have core group of players that’s playing it, they’re going to tell their friends to all play together. And my customer acquisition cost can go very, very low. That’s the first part of the formula. The second part of the formula is also how to make my ARPU higher and it’s by, you know, selling emotional attachment for these games.

29:52 For games like League of Legend or Final Salvation, we are not selling power. Most games earn money by selling power. You know, you pay more, you do better in the game, you’re stronger, but that formula will then eventually kick out all the numb paying users because they don’t think it’s fair. So we don’t do that. We sell aesthetics, we sell skins.

30:16 It’s like selling clothing. And but you know, why do you want to buy clothing for money? If you’re playing the game by yourself, you don’t care. But now you have friends who play together. They’re looking at you in the game. It’s like I’m walking on the street. I want to look nice.

30:33 I’m talking to Brian Rose today and I put on my suit. You know, it’s you want to look good in front of people you care about. And that’s the magic of mobile, of mobile games. A lot of people play it. Your friends are playing it. Your girlfriend may be playing it. And then you want to look good in front of them. Now using clothing as example, well what 3 does to it is enables for infinite personalization of skins as well as verifiably unique and rare skins. So now the clothing that I’m wearing, it goes from traditional studio made clothing that is factory made to now that it can be made by anyone with fandom. It can be made by any tailors, tailor made for you, and it’s verifiably that there’s only one cloth like that in the world. You can sell for a lot more because of that. Now we’re not just selling clothing. Clothing is cotton price, no, with labor, then charge a premium.

31:47 What we’re selling is emotional attachment. What we’re selling now is people’s emotional attachment to how unique this can be to the, you know, whoever created the skin. Infinite personalization is only possible with Web 3. And that’s why we think that this is such a powerful formula to allow for treaters to create their own skin, their own unique assets and use it as a way to really improve the ARPU for the game developers. So with increased ARPU, lower customer acquisition cost, plus a lot of support for our later One partner suite, we realize that this really will become the game changer.

32:33 Brian Rose: All right. So you’re going to create this vast marketplace with all these people that are interested. There’s going to be all sorts of goods and services exchanges that’ll probably be on your platform and everyone can personalize it infinitely. And then when you do bring those G20 countries on and you bring those incomes on, that means later in the years that could also bring another wave of revenue.

32:58 Johnson Yeh: Exactly, and so these guys will have higher tendency to pay, but then you know, and even if the game is not available to them yet, they still have collection valley. I mean, you know, I love to use the example. I can hire one of the most expense, most famous E board players is, let’s say in the League of Legends space is Faker.

33:18 Not saying, you know, allow me to hire him. But if I hire him to play like 10 games, he’s so good. He’s going to make a triple kill or a 3V3 game. So we can now make his first triple kill. He can make a skin out of it and then it becomes his first triple kill. It’s, you know, the equivalent of Michael Jordan’s first made shot in NBA basketball is worth 15 bucks. But it’s because of Michael Jordan that’s worth so much, right?

33:48 So what we are doing is letting anyone with fandom to optimize the value for the goods because that emotional attachment and that’s not limited to India, right? Figures going to have fans globally. They know the event, the the game will eventually be launched there. So they can already participate in this economy early on too. But yes, when we launch in these G7 countries, we think that, you know, it will do extremely well.

34:17 Brian Rose: Excellent. Let’s talk about Suey and your layer one partner. I started hearing about Suey when I started coming to Dubai two years ago, year and a half ago, mainly from Gaff Capital and that’s run by Sheikh Moala over there. And he’s been championing the SU ecosystem for a long time inside their venture capital firm, which I think is the very first Holy Emirati owned VC firm in web three ever, I believe. And I remember hearing the name and, you know, at the time, you know, they were one of many layer one block chains. We didn’t know much about them, but I got to meet the founders when I was here last time about six months ago. And I was extremely impressed.

34:58 I mean, these guys were, you know, basically sitting next to Zuckerberg at Facebook. They know their tech like the back of their hand. And when I had some quiet conversations with them, they said Brian Vartec is far superior to anything out there. And when they actually see what’s happening, this is going to blow up. Literally over the last six months since I talked to them, Suey is going to become now I think the 12th biggest crypto out there. And now everyone’s talking about Suey. It’s massively increased.

35:29 And some people say it’s still getting warmed up. It’s got incredible speed. People call it the Solana for institutions. I don’t know if that’s right. Maybe it is. I’m going to have probably both founders here on the show to go deeper.

35:40 But can you talk a little a little more about why you chose SUI, why it was the best for what you’re doing, and how the SUI network itself can help you expand your business?

35:54 Johnson Yeh: Yep. I chose 3 SUI 1/2 years ago. At that time, it was a bear market, no. So we didn’t have too many choices.

36:02 We were looking for protocols, layer ones or layer twos. That’s highly aligned with us in terms of our vision that had good tech and can really work with us, support us in the long run. And it’s almost like a marriage. We started with three. It wasn’t even the exclusive arrangement at that time. And then we started working with them and realized that, wow, the tech is extremely strong.

36:31 As you said, it’s very tailored to our audience, which is Web 2. Audience getting to Web 3 is very painless, very fast transaction speed, really focused on the players and really customer driven so we have any requests we can work together with them. We think we need to solve a problem for our players. They’re on it, they’ll fix it together with us. Really love their attitude, vision. They you know, they I think they’re super long term driven. That’s why you don’t hear about them so much in the market, but they’re just working on their tech, their product and they know that with that, eventually they’ll get there with a lot of followers, a lot of people believing them and we have super long term vision that’s very aligned. Make what 3 mainstream?

37:26 Another reason next the team. It is a super passionate and very capable team. I started my web 3 journey working with many other chains. I have like spent significant amount of time with three other chains, dabble with them and I there’s no other team like Sweet. They’re just no capability wise, willingness, passion level.

37:51 They’re just up there. So I’ve had only great things to say in my 1/2 years of collaboration with Sui. And because we’re so close with them, we are now building a product E4C Looters, our gaming platform in collaboration with them, because we think that they are such great partners. So that’s the first and second part of the question. Going forward, they will continue to be our partner.

38:18 We continue to hope that they’re all, they’re our only partner. We want to build an ecosystem that can really scale and we think that going multi chain, there’s so many problems that I need to solve, right? So let me security problems. I want to focus on building my game and my community and not worry about the tech behind it. So sweeps that perfect solution.

38:43 So my goal is to continue to work with them and make Web 2, make Web 3 gaming mainstream together with them. We’ll have many, many other exciting things coming up, so stay tuned.

38:55 Brian Rose: Well, I mean, let’s go a little deeper on that because you’re building a game, a mobile game, it’s probably one of the most demanding products for any layer one, you know, and some people put their games on Solana and Solana’s amazing. And Solana’s had some downtime issues. It’s had a lot of other issues.

39:15 Other networks are just so slow and so expensive, they can’t do games. I know some games that have used AVAX and you know this and that. But I mean, you’re asking a lot out of SUI to be able to deliver everything you want and you want to scale this to billions of users eventually. I can’t imagine the number of transactions per second you’re going to be doing. It’s a lot, but from what I hear so we can deliver that. Yes.

39:40 Johnson Yeh: First of all, we only put out for now, we only put our assets on chain. So our skins, our, you know, gems, our avatars, those things are on chain, but the game itself is still done run on centralized servers to make sure we have good performance. So that’s what we’re doing. But yes, even for the Unchained part, right, the demand is high. Think about it. You know, you need to upgrade your skin, you need to put jams on it for special affection to be trading it know once you buy, you want to use immediately.

40:11 We need a chain that’s very high performing and you’re right. So we for us is that one.

40:15 Brian Rose: And gamers don’t want to wait, do they?

40:17 Johnson Yeh: No, for sure they don’t. They want it now.

40:19 Brian Rose: You know, it’s funny, Google did this study like 1020 years ago when they started the browser and you know, they were always making their browser super fast.

40:27 And I remember in the early days of Google, it would tell you how many microseconds it I remember looking at that like why do I care if it’s .01 microseconds of .04? But they found that the longer latency time, people would give the feedback that it was not a good browser or they didn’t like using it, or the results weren’t as good, even though the results were the same. But when they came faster, people had a whole different experience. And so it’s super important to live at that speed.

40:53 Johnson Yeh: I completely agree.

40:54 Brian Rose: What is next on the road map from a game perspective? Because like you said, it’s got to be fun to play right now. I hosted a panel two years ago, I think it was at the Future Blockchain Summit, which at that point was being held with Jitex downtown. And I was up there with a couple gaming people.

41:15 And there was a guy up there from kind of Web 2 gaming and he just decided to ruin the party. And he came out and said all Web three games suck. They’re not fun to play. The guys got the play to earn, you got the none and none. No one cares unless it’s fun. And everyone went silent.

41:31 And I later told Yadav, Animoca brands. And he was like, I wish I would have been there because I would have told him. But you stressed that about three times so far in this conversation. It’s got to be fun to play, and it can’t be played to earn because that ultimately sets it up for failure. How do you keep a game fun and what are the plans of the evolution of that game for this year?

41:53 Johnson Yeh: Yeah, so we are just like League of Legends. We are a game as a service, so we’ll continue to upgrade our game. We’re champions, we’re skins balance changes, making the game more fun. So that’s what we continue to do on one hand, and you know, we what we also want to do is we want to optimize the experience for our players with more and more diverse experience. So right now we only have normal mode.

42:21 We’re going to have ranked more very soon. We’ll have more and more, let’s say different modes for people to play in. That’s another part, but essentially it’s about you know, the way we want to operate Find your salvation is not too different from League of Legends. It is about just listening to players feedback, improving on the game, making changes that makes it exciting for people, building an E sports scene around this so that we can capture people’s common emotional attachment and then making the magic happen because everyone loves playing it. And we just need to focus on the fun of it. Focus on that core thing that makes your adrenaline, you know, make make your adrenaline flow because that’s what matters at the end of the day.

43:15 It’s not the for gamers, for most of the gamers around the world, it’s not about earning money, it’s about having fun. It’s about, you know, doing things that you love, and that’s what we want to capture. We want the gamers to have fun and tell their friends about it. And you know what? We focus on the making money part.

43:35 After so many people play our game, that’s our plan.

43:38 Brian Rose: Right, OK. And that’s in your DNA. That’s what makes you different than a lot of web tree gaming people because this is literally, you know, what you’ve done for a big chunk of your life. Exactly. Talk to me about the E sports angle. I mean that’s a big part of your background. Are you thinking about what that looks like for a final solution in the future?

43:58 And then how do you start to engineer or conceive of something like?

44:03 Johnson Yeh: That for sure. First of all, E sports superb. Even during my time with Riot in China, our investigation is that about 50% of League of Legend players stayed and it’s still part of it’s still playing actively because of our E sport. E sports so great, right?

44:20 Because it is again, going back to my magical word, which is emotional attachment. It provides that lingering emotional attachment for the game. So how many players have no just turned away from the game and they watch the League of Legends worlds and then decide I’m going to start the game, even if I just play a few games. But I really want to buy that Faker skin, you know, realize that E sports is such strong magic because it is a common emotional attachment that, you know, people who all all everyone who’s played the game, who watch the game can talk about, You know, you play a game of mobile of FPS.

45:00 Yes, people can empathize with it, but not nearly as much as let’s say you know, NBA game that everyone knows LeBron James knows Smith, Stephen Curry in the East board world for League of Legends, everyone knows Faker. And that’s the magic of common emotional attachment. So I want to take that and then make it part of our magical success formula as well. In fact, I’m in Middle East also because this region is huge proponent for East Board and we think there’s huge opportunities here and we think that is a great way to do marketing. In fact, because of that virality element of it, right E sport can be a cheaper way to acquire customers and return customers players rather than just to pay to pay using doing paid UA.

45:48 So we’re definitely be doing that. Our road map is that we need to make the game successful first. But I have a lot of connections from my previous previous role. No, there’s a lot of top clubs in the world already promised to play my first global tournament, which we hope can happen by end of this year. By that time, we would have covered enough regions already. We’ll have enough players who care about this. We want to have a big tournament, hopefully somewhere here in Middle East, I guess, you know, Saudi is a great place for that.

46:20 And then we want to make sure that this is the crazy event that people can say, wow, this game is so much fun to play, to watch and all the Big E sport teams are already going into it. So that’s what we want to achieve by the end of this year.

46:37 Brian Rose: Wow, that’s exciting. This region is fascinating. Saudi is massive in gaming and E sports as well, and this region as well. Can you talk about that phenomenon? Because a lot of people are surprised when they hear that.

46:53 Johnson Yeh: Yes, I think part of it is just, you know, the the Shakes personal passion, no and then but that’s not just it, right. Personal passion needs to be coupled with strong business case.

47:06 And I think what we’ve been able to prove with League of Legend China globally is that it can be profitable. It can have so many positive effect coming from it. And then if done well, we can really make it part of the overall industry, attract tourism, and then have people spend a crazy amount in it. I have a super cool story. 2017 League of Legends Worlds was hosted by me and my team in China. So our semifinals and quarterfinals ticket, we sold it together.

47:45 We had 30,000 ticket that we’re selling in the 1st wave. It hit the the the my which is China’s largest ticketing system and you got immediately sold out. 850,000 people concurrently came to watch that website, crashed the website just to get my 30,000 tickets. Imagine the power of that right? E sport is not an online thing anymore.

48:16 It can really be a great spectator, spectator experience offline, attract people to come. It can be great in Saudi, it can be great here. I mean, this just even Dubai, right? This is a place where you have the superlatives of everything. And I think that it’s a great way to attract people to come here as well as an additional form of entertainment. So I think this region, but you know, it takes it takes time, it takes money investment upfront.

48:48 So but you know, I think this region is wrong with the Super long term driven economies. They’re willing to make this kind of investment. So I’m very optimistic that, you know, E war is going to take off globally, hopefully find the salvation E war will be part of it, but I’m almost very sure that the Middle East will be a huge part of it.

49:09 Brian Rose: You know, a lot of older people that are watching and listening to us, maybe over 40, definitely over 50 and 60. They don’t understand how big E sports is.

49:18 They don’t understand you can fill that entire stadium of people watching other people play games. They don’t understand that some of the live stream events will get, you know, double, triple the number of people that watch the NBA Finals. You know, it’s so big out there. And you must find people surprised to hear that because it seems still not culty, but very nichy. But if you’re in your 20s and 30s and you’re a gamer or teens, I mean, it’s everybody knows it’s the coolest thing, right?

49:47 And like you said, and an amazing way for things to go viral and to get customers. Can you just speak on that a little bit? Because a lot of people don’t even know that this is a phenomenon.

50:01 Johnson Yeh: Yes, I would just use numbers. While I was still with Riot, the event I was telling you about 2017 worlds.

50:08 Our finals was in Bird’s Nest, which is where 2008 Beijing Olympics, the opening and closing ceremony, was held there. 90,000 people. We had a three size day, so maximum capacity for us was 45K, sold out completely, 45,000 people.

51:27 Online viewership unique viewers in China alone over 100 million that was the power of it a. 100 million a. 100 million UV in China alone.

51:40 Brian Rose: That’s crazy.

51:41 Johnson Yeh: It is crazy, so crazy. You know when let’s say after IG which is the 2018, the year later won the first League of Legends championship won by LPL team entire China went crazy.

51:58 You realize that E sport has so much more. Let’s say so much common emotional attachment in the younger generation. But because this is the age right, where it is no longer let’s say the CCT VS of the world or the ABCNBCS of the world come come controlling everything. This is the age where media is also very fragmented by the Youtubers, by the Tik Tokers. So E sports very, very strong in the young generation, the gamers. But then know the older generation is not going to hear about it.

52:33 But know, think about this. At our peak League of Legends in China, 6 billion hours broadcasted every year. That is bigger than NBA or the local Soccer League or the local basketball league. That’s China’s largest sport and you don’t a lot of people don’t hear about it simply because of the nature of the media that runs on. But E Sport is amazing and it will continue to grow as an industry going forward and I’m very optimistic about that.

53:08 Brian Rose: And a lot of people play games. I mean, I heard it was like 3 1/2 billion people in the world play some type of digital game. And it’s weird. I, I get on the Tube in London sometimes I’m going home and I see these, you know, older ladies or these professional men and they’re, you know, playing Tetris on their phone and they’re doing all this stuff. And if you ask them if they’re a gamer, they probably say no, but they are. And so it really is a high percentage of people that already are playing games.

53:33 Is that right?

53:34 Johnson Yeh: Oh yes, for sure. 3.5 billion is about as the estimate we have as well. It can be up to four billion just. Half of the world, half the. World is playing games and think about it, you know, a lot of the Super old people, very young people, they don’t even have access to smartphones.

53:49 So it is, you know, for the addressable market, it’s already more than half the half the world is playing games. And no E sport is just, let’s say, the format of gaming that allows spectators to enjoy the watching experience and that’s part of it. But you know, I think that at the end of the day, competitive gaming in E sports a perfect match for each other. But gaming, as you said, right, it is going to be bigger and bigger because everyone have needs for interactive entertainment.

54:26 That’s what gaming is at the end of the day. There will be more and more future ways that entertainment, interactive entertainment can happen, especially with AI. So there will be more and more, let’s say, gaming in the future with all sorts of different crazy things happening.

54:42 Brian Rose: OK. What does your year look like going forward? You’ve got your token launched, you know, you’re on Suey, you’re working on the game.

54:50 What does it look like? Where do you have to be? What do you have to do? Are you hiring? I’m just kind of curious, what is it?

54:55 What is it like to be Johnson in 25?

54:58 Johnson Yeh: Johnson in 25 is going to be very busy. I’ve been running my startup for the last five years for Amber’s for three I I’ve barely taking any vacations. I think last three years total 3 weeks that that’s it. You know, I just keep working because I’m truly passionate for what I’m doing. I truly believe in it.

55:21 So I got to make it work till 2025 is going to be a busy year. Find your salvation. Ludus will have our first version of Ludus ready by end of end of Q1 hopefully. And then our goal right is to really make no this ecosystem of game grow. So by end of this year, we’re hoping that we’ll get to the first critical mass that we can say, hey, this is a fun game that people in Disney emerging market. It is one of the most viral games. That’s what we want.

56:02 So by end of this year, we’re hoping for, let’s say I, I would say an ambitious goal will be 10 million monthly active users. That’s what we want to do. I’ll be working very hard for that.

56:17 Brian Rose: OK, what’s Ludus?

56:18 Johnson Yeh: Ludus. Ludus is our game publishing platform. It’s a cross-platform gaming layer building collaboration with Mr. Labs.

56:27 So Steam is let’s say at the closest benchmark. So Steam covers just PC mainly a little bit of mobile, but it is a game publishing platform. People look for fun games. One of the first thing they think about is oh let me find out on Steam developers who don’t know where to put their game. Steam is that go to place.

56:55 So it is almost like a marketplace, a publishing platform where gamers looking for good games and developers looking for gamers meet. That’s what we want to do. We want to build the steam in Web 3 to allow users who’s part of the Web 3 ecosystem to find fun games. At the same time for Web 3 developers to find gamers who really enjoys the fun part of it, not just play to earn part of it. So that’s where we want Ludus to be. So no, right now we are still working on the first version of it.

57:35 But essentially the big differentiation here is in Web 2 gaming, most of the game publishing platform focuses on let’s say just PC, just mobile, few actually cuts across. We want to be that, not just a Web 3 gaming publishing platform. We also want to, you know, be that web three-game publishing platform that can serve PC, mobile, console, HTML5, all of those. We think that gaming is integrated experience. We want you to have one account that can access all your favorite games on all different facets of your life.

58:16 If you’re sitting in front of your gaming laptop PC, you can do, you can access Ludus. If you’re just on the road with your phone, you can do it. If you have just have 3 minutes and want to play a quick game on Calibre mini app, you can do it all through ludus. That’s our vision.

58:32 Brian Rose: Nice. And you’re not in a rush to create new games. I believe I’ve heard you talk about in the past that you’re really happy to focus and improve and iterate on the one game.

58:42 Is that correct?

58:43 Johnson Yeh: That’s correct. And you would know. Think about it, Riot didn’t have its first game outside of League of Legends until like 10 years after League of Legends was first published. I have. I would say a lot of my strategic decision making is influenced by my timing.

59:02 Riot, I believe in having a great game and then continue to iterate on it. And yes, at the time, if the time is right, we’ll do more games. Right now, Final salvation is barely getting started there, right? I don’t want to tell people, hey, I’m moving on to build another game. I want to first make this game successful.

59:22 I want this game, you know, look, look at my geographic expansion road map. I have so many regions to conquer. I have so many more champions to make, so many things that I need to listen to our player feedback and improve on. I want to do those first. And once I do that, I’ll think about doing another game.

59:39 So yes, for in the foreseeable future, we’re just working on this one title. But Ludus is a great compliment to that because finding salvation as a mobile mobile, it’s always going to have a problem that you know, you’ll get a lot of users quickly. But then in terms of actual monetization for free to play games, it comes slightly later. So. Do this is a perfect complement to that because we’ll have casual games that have high monetization, that have return on acquisition spend that’s much, much shorter time that allows us to, you know, earn money more quickly and then they work perfectly with each other because final salvation users will automatically be on do this. So we have a game that can automatically bring users onto this platform.

1:00:28 And once you have a platform with more users, developers will want to come. And then once developers come, we have good games, then the snowball effect can roll and then we have flying wheel effect build on this combination which we think is perfect.

1:00:42 Brian Rose: Wow, That’s quite a strategy really, is. And does this mean you’re going to have to be on the ground in these regions? Like, are you going to be travelling to cities in India?

1:00:52 Are you going to be going to Africa? Or is that not always what’s necessary to build this?

1:00:58 Johnson Yeh: It’s not necessary but you know it’s always good to know the market. Last month I just went to India too. It’s my second visit.

1:01:07 And no, I do think that the developer, no need to know good insight about the market too. But we do have a partner in India, Nazara, who’s our publishing partner. They give us a lot of insight and we work very closely with them. So that’s a very positive things. On the other hand, no, traditional game publishers, it’s not going to know about like what, 3 virality, you know, these cool things that we’re doing, right? So essentially our publishing strategy is no matter where we go, we want to find local partners, especially in some of these regions, right?

1:01:41 Payment is a big thing we are a gaming company I don’t want to spend my time solving payment problems. I don’t and we need the market inside we need localization in many of these market So in every region, especially in these nascent emerging market, we plan to have a publishing partner. But you know, we will. It’s not like traditionally where you give the game to them and they do everything. It’s more of a partnership where we tell them, hey, this is how we plan to leverage Web 3 to go viral.

1:02:14 And here are the things you need to do. Here are the things we will do. Let’s make this work together that’s published together. Let’s make sure that we can do marketing user acquisition together. That’s our publishing model. And because of that, I need to travel slightly less to these regions than I otherwise would if I were to self publish. In fact, self-publishing is extremely expensive. We don’t think we can do that.

1:02:38 But when we we call our current model like a hybrid publishing model, we think it’s going to work, you know, in all the nascent emerging market that we talked about do.

1:02:48 Brian Rose: You think other games are going to come to you in the future or is that kind of what Ludus is for? I mean, when they see your model, you cracking these markets, is that something that you’re going to want to happen?

1:03:01 Johnson Yeh: Oh for sure. I think once you have users who is already has a, you know, a wallet has a web three account and they’re looking for for fun. They’re here to spend, not to earn your money. You have the audience that’s going to be money because everyone wants those audience.

1:03:18 In web three, people are able to find play to earn users very, very easily. But where do you find users who’s actually willing to play, who actually wants fun? It’s very hard to find. So our thesis is that with final salvation, once we find those users, yes, they’re not the highest ARPU users, They’re from these nice emerging market, doesn’t matter. They’re here to pay money to play your game and that’s still better than people who only play your game because they want to earn your money.

1:03:49 So we think we build a very unique value proposition even in the Web 3 field because of finance salvation.

1:03:58 Brian Rose: OK. You’re one of two founders in in our ventures group from Taipei. And I was wondering if you could tell us what is it like Taipei and Taiwan and why do you choose that as home and a place to, you know, have have part of your team?

1:04:18 Johnson Yeh: First of all, I’m from Taiwan and I grew up there. It is home to me.

1:04:24 I’ve been I visited 6060 different countries. I’ve lived in many almost 10 countries in my life for the last 10 years of my life. This is my travel journey. I moved from Taipei to Geneva, Switzerland, to New York slash, Philadelphia, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Los Angeles, Taipei, and now I split time between Taipei and Shanghai. I’ve lived in so many different places just in the last 10 years, let alone the last 40 years in my life.

1:04:59 There’s no place like Taipei. The best people, the best food, all the things I care about, my family, my daughter. I think Taipei is home, and that’s what, you know, That feeling cannot be replicated anywhere else. I love Shanghai, right? It’s where my career with riots started. It is where I had the most success in my life, you know, in terms of my career that is.

1:05:27 I’m also like a home to me, but there’s no place like Taipei, and it’s just such a comfortable city to live in. So we’d love to invite you to visit us whenever you can.

1:05:37 Brian Rose: Yeah, I’d love to come. You know, the in in the West, we only hear about Taiwan sometimes when we hear about your incredible superconductor industry. And then we hear, OK, there’s sometimes some issues with mainland Taiwan, but we don’t know much about it.

1:05:51 So we don’t get a chance to come over there very often. But I’d love to come. And as a Taiwanese citizen, you can go to Shanghai no problem. You can do all that travel. Yes. OK.

1:06:01 All right.

1:06:02 Johnson Yeh: And that’s normal. It’s normal people from Taiwan. We enter China using what we call Taibaozhou, so you can easily go into China. OK. All right.

1:06:13 Yeah. In fact, many people in Taiwan still identify them as Chinese living in Taiwan. It’s just a lot of political hassle that we don’t need to go into at this stage. Yes, but you know, I would say that I am from Taiwan. But no, let’s stop there in terms of don’t want to go into too much politics.

1:06:32 Brian Rose: And do you think that at some point China will be coming into Web 3? Obviously, Hong Kong has been given all these kind of special rights and now they have crypto exchanges and a lot of people in Hong Kong are very bullish on that. Of course, Hong Kong has always been kind of the the business forward or maybe the business arm of mainland China. We obviously see major changes happening in the US now from a regulation and it seems like the administration’s embracing Web 3, whereas before they were very against it. Yeah.

1:07:02 What do you see happening kind of in both countries because they’re both potentially target markets for you?

1:07:10 Johnson Yeh: I think US will continue to embrace it. It is the trend democracy, right? I mean, you know, if if US want to continue to, let’s say, achieve its global supremacy objectives, let’s say locking down, you know, Iran, Russia, North Korea needs to have a tighter stance against it. Because no, all the money laundering, all the ways to bypass all the lock downs is crypto is a great way for that. But I think they realize that it’s impossible to block. So if you can’t block it and your population is demanding it, go with the flow, be the king of, you know, that controls the Web three world.

1:07:54 And I think that’s what US is doing. On the other hand, China is much harder. My view is that through Hong Kong will continue to experiment with things and continue to be very open and welcoming for Web 3 and mainland much less so.

1:08:10 Brian Rose: You know, it’s interesting, you know, the US was founded on this concept of freedom, you know, and democracy and choice, you know, at a time 200 and some years ago when that was a revolutionary idea. And it feels like it’s kind of lost its way, you know, over the last, you know, 1020 years. And when people ask me why we’re in the blockchain space, you know, we fought very hard for freedom of speech in 2020. We took some hits and had some big fights with big tech because we believed ultimately freedom of speech is, is, is, is a fundamental human right.

1:08:49 And I believe financial freedom is a fundamental human right. And yet that right is denied to so many people in this world. And so I think if the US really wants to dominate or be competitive globally, it needs to concentrate on its USP, which is freedom. And, you know, you can see different regimes around the world, and you can see some of them embrace surveillance and control. And that’s their USP. And the US has freedom.

1:09:17 And I really think they need to lean into that. And it feels like we’re coming back to that with this new administration. But, you know, ultimately, in the long run, I think it’s going to be freedom versus control. Which one do you choose? Where do you want to live?

1:09:30 And if the US can really embrace this and yeah, OK, do the regulation you need to do with Web 3 and crypto, but still allow people this freedom, this choice that they have, choice with their bodies, choice with their money, choice with their words and their minds, If they can really export that to the world, I feel like that will be the way to achieve that dominance. OK, the economics are important and everything else, but I hope they’re listening when it comes to this and I hope they embrace it. And I think that’s why so many people are in web three.

1:10:03 You know, when I first got into this market, Johnson, I was like, man, there’s so much love. And it’s just weird. When you go to a conference in Dubai, people don’t usually walk out of a Jitex conference thinking so much love in that room, you know? But when you go into a a crypto conference, you feel like there’s love, there’s passion, there’s people that want freedom, They want to find community, they want people to share ideas. I went to Solana break Point in Singapore, my first one, and I, I bumped into a guy and he said, you know what, Brian?

1:10:30 He said there’s other chains out there that are that are saying no to certain memes and saying no to certain things. He said Solana doesn’t say no. This is a place where you have freedom of expression. Yeah, there’s a lot of garbage out there. Yeah, there’s a lot of nonsense out there. But we can do what we want to do. And I thought, wow, that’s, that’s a really a great extension of freedom.

1:10:51 So, yeah, I’m really hoping, you know, that the US embraces that and drives that and they, look, other nations need to make other choices, but I think it’ll ultimately play out. And I think humans kind of want that, you know? Well, to freedom. Yeah, Amen to freedom, right, Johnson? How do people jump into the Amber studio ecosystem? How do they jump into E for C?

1:11:14 How do they start playing now depending on the country that they’re in? What is the way they can really starting aging with you?

1:11:23 Johnson Yeh: Yeah, first of all, follow our Twitter, our Discord. That’s the easiest way to get to know more about us. Final Salvation is only available in India right now. We opened up the entire game for the rest of the world for a few months as early access.

1:11:39 It actually achieved very good results. We had over 200K downloads over this time. So really I see that our expectation, things were going well, but then it is very costly and you know, because we are just launching India, right? This is the type of game that needs critical mass for your matchmaking to be good. So we shut down all the servers around the world and left only the I1 on. So the game itself is only available in India. Ludus is going to be available to the entire world by end of Q1.

1:12:12 So that’s something to stay tuned on. And of course, our token E4C is traded on Kucoin Gate, Bing, XMEXC. And then you know, it is a great way if you believe in the future of what that we’re trying to build mainstream Web 3 gaming and then take Web 3 elements to solve gaming industry problems and dominate the gaming world and provide access to provide freedom to the 3.5 billion population that they say emerging market. Then, you know, come join us this revolution.

1:12:49 I mean, you can buy our token many of these exchanges and I think that just come alone on the right. We’re going to revolutionize Web 3 gaming, and we hope that you, the listener of this watching us, can be part of it.

1:13:02 Brian Rose: I love it and you know, I share with you a little internal video that we made inside London Real just for our kind of ventures team. And it was had a bunch of the highlights when you came on and talked to us. And I think at the end it gave you like I talked about my opinion and I said, look, folks, we got 100 companies in our portfolio. We have no exposure to anybody who’s trying to build these lightweights, you know, fun to play games for the 3.5 billion people out there that really want to play them. There’s nobody in web three that’s focusing on that. I said this is a no brainer to have this in your portfolio. This is a no brainer.

1:13:40 And especially with a guy like Johnson at the head with this huge, amazing pedigree and CV and this amazing vision, for us, it was a no brainer. And I think people should really look into this and look into what you’re doing. And like you said, you can jump in early right now with the token and then all this stuff’s going to happen this year. So it’s super exciting. We are beyond pumped to be on this ride with you and I can’t wait to see how this all plays out over the next couple of years.

1:14:06 There’s no doubt in my mind you’re going to be successful. And I just think it’s so cool that you could be the force that on board so many new people to Web 3, because once they get into Web three, in a weird way, they also start getting financial freedom and they also start becoming part of this massive global community. These are the people that can run nodes from all these trade countries. There’s just so much you can do. And now they’re on that game with their mobile. And then there’s a deep end aspect and all these things I’m sure that you’re thinking about too. So very excited, really cool to sit down with you. Wishing you all the best.

1:14:38 And yeah, I can’t wait to see what’s coming.

1:14:41 Johnson Yeh: Thank you so much, Brian. It’s been a pleasure for me. Then this is just, as you said, a cool conversation between two cool guys. I enjoy this so much, and I very much look forward to working together with you even more closely over the next few years. And then, you know, let’s revolutionize what they’re gaming together and we’ll change the world together.

1:15:02 Brian Rose: I love it.

1:15:03 Brian Rose: To freedom. To freedom. Thanks, Johnson. Appreciate you.

1:15:27 Johnson Yeh: Thank you. Bye.