Domenic Carosa - Passive Income For All: How Hivello Is Simplifying Web3 DePIN For The Masses

Full transcript: Domenic Carosa on London Real

3:21 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose.

3:35 My guest today is Domenic Carosa, the entrepreneur, investor and blockchain experts. You have over 25 years of experience in business and technology, making history as the youngest CEO of a publicly listed company in Australia. You are the Chairman and Co founder of Hivello, a platform designed to help people generate passive income effortlessly by using decentralised physical infrastructure or deepen without any prior technical knowledge. Your goal is to help users leverage their idle computer resources in order to make money using Web 3 technology. You believe we are entering a new era of decentralisation where real world assets and blockchain technology will redefine industries, allowing everyone to take control of their digital and financial future. Domenic, welcome to London Real.

4:25 Domenic Carosa: Thanks for having me, Brian.

4:26 Brian Rose: Great to have you here. I want to start by saying that Hivello is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures, the world’s first media powered investment firm, where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting edge Web 3 and AI companies while giving our partners marketing and exposure across the London Real Media platforms and academies. We heighten awareness, create customers and build communities by leveraging our global audience and extensive network.

4:50 Domenic. We are super. Excited to be part of this journey with you, so let’s jump in. What is Hivello?

4:57 Domenic Carosa: Hivello is a deep in aggregator. But before I talk about Hivello, I want to talk about Deep In just to kind of because it’s a, it’s a new term in web three that some people may not be familiar with. And I just want to sort of share the story of how Deep In actually came about.

5:15 It was founded almost 40 years ago out of a NASA project, and not many people know this. And so NASA over the last, you know, 40 or so years was generating a lot of content, a lot of data from their satellites and their telescopes all around the world. And they just simply didn’t have the computing power in the 80s and 90s to basically process this, to try and find a, a star or a planet. And, and so they basically set up a, a group called SETI, you know, search for extraterrestrials, you know, intelligence out there. And they came up with the concept of decentralisation. And so the way it worked was, and I remember doing this as a teenager, I downloaded the SETI application and then every night I would get this batch of data that my computer would process and then it would be sent back to SETI slash NASA. And that was, that was really the first example of decentralisation, effectively using the millions computers around the world sharing their computer resources to in this case, process data, process information from outer space. And back then there was no blockchain and there were no tokens.

6:37 But humans being humans, there’s got to be a reward. There’s got to be what’s in it for me. And so if your computer or you found a star or a planet, it would actually be named after you. Wow. So, so that was really the 1st.

6:53 And I remember doing this as a teenager and I had two computers running and I was just hoping every night that I’d find a star on my on my computer. So that’s, that’s an example, a real life example of decentralisation. The next. And once again, just to go back when the Internet first started in the 90s, things were much more decentralised. If I had built a website, I would host it at my computer at the office or at home.

7:24 And then over the last 20 or so years, things have become much more centralised. The Googles, the Amazons of the world, media companies like the Youtubes, and we’re going to talk about that as well, where there’s effectively, you know, centralization and also centralization of power. And in my view, we are going back to the ethos of the Internet and ultimately the ethos of the blockchain, where certain infrastructure becomes decentralised and that is owned by the people who are able to generate income from it and, and actually built by the people. So that’s, I guess.

8:02 So before I talk about EVALO, I just wanted to set the scene around what deep in actually is, because there actually is some, I think, you know, a lot of meaning. And for people that get into deep in, you know, it’s more than just trying to build some, some, some fancy technology. It’s actually trying to create, in my view, a better future. Then in terms of answering your question around what’s EVALO, there are thousands of deep insurance out there right now.

8:27 They’re technically complicated. There’s different earning profiles for each depending upon the country. And So what we’ve really tried to do is to effectively wrap all of these deep insurance into our Havalo application, allow someone to install it onto their computer, and then Havalo does the rest in terms of working out what are the best deep insurance to run to maximise ROI. And the analogy that we sometimes give people is think of it as Airbn B for your computer, Airbnb you rent out your house or your room.

9:00 With Hivello, you rent out your computer resources in exchange for tokens money.

9:05 Brian Rose: Yeah, that’s the perfect example. And look, you just got a tour of London Real studios. And what you see out there is a bunch of iMac sitting on desks, right? I got iPhones here and there. I got a control room back there at home. I probably got some gaming consoles that my kids use sometimes.

9:25 And I got a bunch of other pieces of hardware that are sitting there and doing nothing 20 hours a day. And I’ve paid for the capital costs and it’s sitting there doing nothing. It’s a bit like vacation homes. 30-40 years ago, it would sit there 50 weeks out of the year with nobody there. And I would go for two weeks.

9:42 And then you’d wonder, honey, why the hell did we buy the place in Spain? And it doesn’t make any sense. And so people don’t realise that they could be making money while they sleep, they could be money making money while they’re at the gym, even, probably even when they’re using their computer by farming out their GP, US and all things like this to a place like Cabello. And then you make it super simple by just giving them crypto in whatever crypto type I think they want and cutting out all the middle men, all the gas fees, all the little things you have to do.

10:13 Because if you set this up on your own, it can get quite complicated, right?

10:17 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, if you try and set up on your own, you’ve got to set up the wallets. You’ll need to have the native tokens of each of the deepings because to pay the gas fee and and then you need a certain type of computer instance, whether it’s running a docker container or running Kubernetes. And I’m not going to get too technical, but it’s just another application before you can even run the deep in and most people are not that technically minded And, and our view is there’s got to be a better way.

10:46 How do we then there’s a number of reasons why, you know, we’ve, I’ve sort of moved down this deep in space, but ultimately it’s about trying to stick with ethos of the original Internet and blockchain where things are decentralised to give the power back to the people, let them own part of the network and let them have a economic return. And thirdly, by having a decentralised network, it’s inherently going to be much stronger, much more secure. And what we’ve seen with hacks, you know, one small hack or issue at one group and it brings down half the Internet with when things are decentralised, there’s much more resilience. And this is, you know, very much the, the whole ethos of, of Bitcoin.

11:32 So our philosophy is making it super simple and then giving customers a choice, get paid in the native Dping tokens that they’re mining on their computer or stablecoin. I don’t want the hassle of having to deal with five or six different wallets or I don’t care for crypto, just pay me straight into my bank account. So we can appeal to the web to users and hopefully bring many more web to users in that maybe first say just pay me into my bank account and then become crypto curious and say, actually, I’ll take some of those tokens. You know, let me just see and touch and feel what this crypto is.

12:10 Brian Rose: Because I think as soon as more people, non crypto people’s touch crypto, it opens up them to the possibility and which is why we’re here. And you know, with the programmes that you’re running as well in terms of the D5 primes, it’s really about education. And I think Cavallo is a making passive income but also educating more people into the crypto space. Do you think D PIN could be the thing, you know, that brings that next billion users into Web 3? Because everyone’s always saying that their business is the one that’s going to do it, Web 3 gaming.

12:41 And maybe it will be real world assets, maybe it will be tokenized real world assets. But it also could be D PIN because you know, how many four billion, 5 billion people have a mobile phone and you could be in the sub-saharan, you know, country. And the amount of money you might get for the GPU on your mobile phone to someone here, it might be pennies, but for you, that could be a serious amount of money.

13:05 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, yeah. And and there’s so much lighten like the example you were giving, you’ve got a bunch of computers in your office which only utilised, you know, 4 hours a day.

13:15 All of that lighten computer capacity could be pulled together. And that’s the concept of, of Deeping and actually monetized. And, and there are, and you know, when we, I guess, go further, deeper into deep in, there’s certain verticals that I’m bullish on, specifically within the deep in space, like GPU, purely because there is a big demand for GPU hashes, because GPU hashes are used to train AI models and AI as we know is booming right now. And there’s a real economic benefit in actually using decentralised GPU infrastructure as compared to the centralised Amazon Googles of the world. And we’re talking, you know, 80% less, 80 percent less, materially less to go down the decentralised path as compared to the centralised path.

14:03 Brian Rose: Really that much of A cost savings, Yes. And why is that? Are they just jacking up those premiums or are they taking all the good GPUs for themselves?

14:12 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, it was only when I went down this rabbit hole that I actually discovered this. If I’m a consumer, I can buy a GPU, let’s call it, for $1000. If I’m an enterprise and I try and buy the same capacity GPU, it costs about 10 times the amount because it comes in a rack.

14:29 It comes with nice management software. No wonder NVIDIA is a trillion dollar company. So it’s just it’s more about the licencing around it than anything else. And so if it costs, if the actual hardware costs 10 times the amount, obviously the GPU hashes coming out of that GPU are inherently going to cost much more than the consumer version.

14:54 Brian Rose: Wow, so there’s a significant cost savings by using Deepen as opposed to going to an AWS?

15:00 Domenic Carosa: Absolutely.

15:01 And in coming back to your other point, I think deep in and real world assets, but specifically deep in I think is going to bring in the next half a billion, billion people because it’s tangible. And it’s also a way for people to generate income by actually creating this network, this this decentralised mesh network. Because if you go back, you know, the last 10 years of crypto, you know, you were either buying a coin or you’re speculating on it. You weren’t actually, yeah, what’s I guess the word is, you know, creating anything or being part of something, you know, some kind of infrastructure. But with deep in, you can actually be, you can actually be part of that network, you know, part of that movement of actually owning and earning from that infrastructure.

15:50 Brian Rose: And I want to talk briefly what you said about, you know, the different tokens of the different networks. So we talked about the the Airbnb comparison, but the truth is in deep end right now there’s like 1000 Airbnb’s, you know, or at least a couple 100 that are the ones that are controlling or have the big market share in certain types of GPU’s and certain types of physical infrastructure. And so most of us go use Airbnb when we go travel, but the truth is there’s a hundred of them in this deep end. And unlike Airbnb where you can use your dollars, each one of these hundred things want them you to use their token. And So what you’re solving for

16:31 Is that the person doesn’t have to worry about that. You go find them the best return possible for that GPU, that piece of hardware or whatever. And then you give it to them and you handle all the foreign exchange, all the different issues, and then you pay them in whatever currency they want. That’s huge because if I have to go try to figure out the Helium network and go in and figure out about exactly what to do and what to do with the token and worry if the token’s up, down or 20%. I mean, I’m already getting a headache thinking about it and I understand Defy and it’s still a headache. So yours, you download it on your window or your Mac and then boom, you choose.

17:08 You can stay in the web two world, the Fiat currency. You can get also Web 3 and started getting some benefits and it’s that simple.

17:17 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, we’ve really tried to make it as simple as using iTunes or Spotify. That that was the the, the the philosophy around it and the key learning. And if it’s sort of just to jump back, you know, a couple of the companies, I’ve founded a few companies since 2013. One of the companies is a is a company called Banksa Banks is one of the leading Fiat on and off ramps in the space and the precursor to banksawasbitcoin.com dot AU, which we subsequently sold.

17:46 And the whole philosophy around that was, you know, Bitcoin in the early 2012, 2013, 14 was still relatively new. And if you wanted to get involved in the ecosystem, you didn’t start with Bitcoin, you started with cash. And so the whole thinking and philosophy was, well, how can we help people get involved, take their cash or bank transfer and basically give them crypto, you know, in a, in a safe, regulatory compliant environment. And that’s how the bitcoin.com dot AU and the banks business was actually born. And what we learnt through that process is the simpler we made that checkout process, the higher the conversion rates. And so taking away and I think, you know, as an industry, I think we’ve got a, a long way to go because we get caught up in the, you know, in the tech talk.

18:35 And, and I think that alienates a big part of the, the community, the non crypto community. And my view is we just need to keep it really simple. And if you ask me when, when do I believe crypto will be, you know, mass market and omnipresent is when you’re actually using it in the back end and on the front end, you don’t even know that you’re using it. Yeah. Like that, that, that for me is that’s the, that’s what I see as success when it’s when all the pipes are basically blockchain based.

19:07 Brian Rose: Why do you think it took crypto so long to learn that lesson? Because it feels like it only has come about the last 18 months where everyone says guess what, you use our platform and you don’t even know you have a wallet. You don’t even know you’re dealing in crypto. You just give us your e-mail address and you get the service. Why did it take us so long till we get fascinated with the tech?

19:25 Did we like it because it was a club where you had to know the tech to be part of the club? I’m just curious what you think because we really went down a rabbit hole of having to really understand a lot of complicated things in order even to use basic services.

19:40 Domenic Carosa: I think the way to answer that question is to go back to the Internet from the mid 90s. I was involved in the mid 90s to set up a browser, you know, Eudora or the Netscape, Netscape or e-mail. You needed to know SMTP, you needed to know all of these configurations. It wasn’t literally a point and click and the whole thing does it itself.

20:00 And, and, and I think that’s just a natural evolution of, of any technology business. And, you know, the 1st 10 years of the Internet were really the domain of the, the nerds. And I’ll put up my hand and say I’m, I’m one of those nerds. And I think the first ten years, you know, since O 9, you know, 2010 was really the domain of the nerds. And now we’re starting to move into a, a phase where it’s the mass market and the mass market ultimately demands it needs to be simple. I’m not interested in the jargon. Just make it do what you you tell me it’s going to do. And I don’t want to know about the details.

20:35 Brian Rose: Yeah, I think you’re right.

20:37 I got my first e-mail when I I got to MIT in 1989 and it was called Project Athena and we all got an e-mail and I think I sent an e-mail to my brother at Stanford. And then I never used it for like 6 years just because it was so early on and no one had adopted it. But you’re right, it’s not until later and kind of the corporations come in and the marketers come in that they make it a little more friendly. And that’s what’s going on now it seems. And now we see web three games that are running on AVAX and people in the front don’t know that it’s running on AVAX. And that’s a beautiful thing.

21:07 And the same with you guys. I can download Abello and it can start making me money and pay me in Fiat. And I don’t need to know that there’s blockchain involved. But you couldn’t do that without blockchain because all those deep end networks are set up on blockchain. Because going back to your setting example from the very early days, rewarding someone by naming the star after them is good, but it’s not the most efficient capital market, is it?

21:29 It probably would have been better to have a token and have all these different reward systems. You could have gotten more out of that network if you would had a token, right, and some infrastructure and some way to really give value to specific people as opposed to the promise of the star. And that’s I guess essentially why you are using block chain technology. You could have built this without that, right?

21:54 Domenic Carosa: We we could have used it, but the underlying deepens themselves actually use deep in technology because there’s a a concept called a cold start in particularly in the deep in space. So in order to roll out the network, you particularly in the early stages, you need to incentivize people to either buy the hardware, use existing hardware and basically set up the node or set up that bit of hardware. And so the way it typically works is at the early onset of the network, there’s a high percentage of the rewards in tokens.

22:26 And then as the network gets bigger and you get the network effect, the rewards actually decrease over time. And and that’s only really possible with the advent of blockchain and and crypto. And so our business model is our application. It runs various block chains in the back end, but you don’t need to know or even think about block chain. We do have our own token coming out, but that’s, I guess I said that’s more of an incentivisation tool specifically around Hivello and we’re going to be launching on the Solana network very shortly.

23:00 But that’s more incentive wise, which is I guess, you know, slightly different to what I’m talking about around the blockchain running the deepings.

23:08 Brian Rose: Yeah, Just real quickly while you’re on that, why choose the Solana network? Obviously the way I understand it is, you know, when I start using your network, I will get my money, but I also might start to get rewarded in the Velo token. And then by having more of those, I’m going to get higher rates. I’m going to get all sorts of other benefits, maybe a bit like a rewards programme or a frequent flyer, and then I can really start to make even more money with you. But why, Solana?

23:36 You could have chose a lot of different things. Why then?

23:40 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, we we did our research when it came to different tokens. We just, Solana’s fast and cheap. It just does what it says 99.99% of the time.

23:51 It’s just it’s, and it’s relatively easy to work on. It’s not a layer 2 because we could have gone with some of the layer 2’s on the ERC network. But my view is just keep it simple. People understand Solana. It’s tried and tested. I mean, we, we did consider going down the base route. I mean, we absolutely did look at that. But just in terms of user adoption, my view is Solana just has millions and millions of people who already into Solana and understand Solana.

24:21 Brian Rose: Yeah, I think you’re right, Dom. You know, we’ve we’ve made now almost 80 different investments. And so lately the founders come and I’m talking to him and now everybody wants to generate their token now and we’ll talk about the market shortly. But I was asking what, what network and I’m waiting and when they give me some layer to like Arbitrom or Bass, I’ll be honest with you. I’m kind of like, oh man, really? Is that another thing that I have to stick in my wallet? And now do I have to convert my stable coins to that? And, and I just, I’m kind of really happy now when I hear Solana and if you stay on ERC, I mean, I’m paying crazy gas, crazy gas.

24:58 I mean, the other day it was like 9 bucks per transaction, 7 bucks a transaction, maybe 3 bucks a transaction. And look, I’m over it. But I’m just like, man, you know, if I’m noticing it, the rest of the world is as well. And so, and what are the other options right now? I can’t say that a lot of others come up right now.

25:16 OK, buying a smart chain. No one really uses that much anymore. It’s not exactly considered a premium network, I’d say. So I was really happy that you went with Solana. And we’re seeing more and more people using it and again, more and more people buying meme coins. It’s obvious meme coins is going to be a huge part of this cycle and a huge part of the crypto narrative for the next 100 years, I believe.

25:37 And so why not have those people that that understand the network that also could potentially be your customers too?

25:57 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, absolutely. And, and in terms of the soon to be released Havalo token, like you said, it’s will be basically think of it as you’re earning your DPIN tokens, but you’re also going getting extra APY, extra upside with a Havalo token. So we’re actually using, you know, same philosophy because we’ve just launched in beta. We’re using the token to cold start our our community and our network and just incentivize the the 1st.

27:11 50,000 first 100,000 nodes with our own token nice. So that for me is once again it’s just coming back to the whole ethos around crypto and what do we need to do to basically bring it and make it accessible to millions of people around the world.

27:25 Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s such an important currency to have your own token because like you said, you can incentivize people for coming on early, You can incentivize people for certain behaviours. That’s going to help build the network and give you the effect you need.

27:40 There’s a lot of good reasons for that. Talk to me about this concept of decentralisation because look, a couple years ago when Chachi BT came out, I did a deep dive into AI and I talked to some heavy hitters in this industry from, you know, from Professor Max tech market MIT, who you know, was asking for a six month pause. I spoke to Peter Diamandis, who you know, is very close, you know, to a lot of the futurists out there. I spoke to MOC out at ex Google XI, spoke to Professor Hugo, to Garrus. That holder wrote a whole book about what happens called the Art of like war, where a billion people die. And so I went down this thing and I soon became very uncomfortable with big tech dominating AI and big tech also dominating the hardware space.

28:25 And so when I look at deep end, I look at a way to get back to everything we love about blockchain, which is decentralisation, which by definition is democratisation, which by definition means more freedom for us individuals and maybe even more accountability for these bigger players. Can you speak on that? And is that something you think more people will be more aware of going forward?

28:51 Domenic Carosa: I think most people still don’t understand the concept of decentralisation And, and it’s, it’s, it only once I think someone goes down that crypto blockchain rabbit hole, do they actually understand the, the benefit and the power of it.

29:07 And when I first got into crypto in 2013, I read the white paper and, and I was like, wow, this, this is going to change. This is going to change the world. And, and I started, my first foray was, I started mining, I actually bought mining equipment and actually started mining Bitcoin. And it was only when I did that that I really understood A and in my view, I think Bitcoin is a store of value. And, you know, we’re basically creating, you know, this store of value, like digging it out of the ground. We’re actually creating it in digital form. It’s, it’s unique and there’s only going to ever be 21 million.

29:49 And I’m talking specifically Bitcoin and it’s decentralised. There is no central government or organisation that can control it, particularly if you have your own non custodial wallet. And and so just those kinds of things going through my head. And I’m a big believer of, you know, free speech, you know, freedom of, of individuals and, and, you know, true democracy, not BS democracies that I think some countries are adopting. And, and I think that the more people open their minds to that, I think the better we are in terms of the world.

30:20 And that’s why, once again, Hevalo that in my view, is going to bring the next 100 people into crypto because they’re going to be downloading onto the onto the Hivello onto their computer. They’re going to maybe first select I just want to get paid into my bank account. And then they’ll say, OK, let me just check out this, you know, the storage token or acash or others. Let me just get a couple of these tokens, you know, in in sort of get experience in the blockchain world without having to put my hand in my own pocket. And I think that’s going to actually help spare more people to actually learn and understand because my view is a bit like your, your D5 programme, which, you know, very much appreciated doing it a number of years ago.

31:04 It’s only by doing that you can actually that you learn the most in my view, not just reading it. And and so that just makes it once again much more tangible.

31:13 Brian Rose: OK, let’s talk specifics because people out there are probably understanding what we’re doing. But like if they look around the room in their home or their office, they probably probably see a lot of devices. And correct me if I’m wrong, but I think certain devices you can get paid more money for. And I think it’s a lot of times those gaming GPUs, which I think is what NVIDIA originally was making, that are now very good at AI.

31:37 But different types of pieces of hardware can make you different amounts of money. I’m curious how that might vary. And then I’m also curious, is this also going to be a place for other types of depends? I mean, depends from the, the research I’ve done have all sorts of really fascinating things. I remember there was a deep in aggregator that was taking, you know, noise data from phones all over the world and in cities and it was taking the decibel levels of places and it was reporting that back and that was going to help determine something or someone was going to get paid or not paid. Also with AI there’s this word called compute and which is kind of a generic term.

32:20 And I’m just wondering are there are going to be a bunch of different types of assets in deepen in the future?

32:26 Domenic Carosa: Absolutely. They’re already within, deep in. There’s really, if you want to break it down into two queries, there’s deep insurance that require dedicated hardware like the Hive mappers and the Heliums of the world. And then there are deep insurance that can work on mobile phones, desktops and laptops.

32:44 We’ve Velo, we’ve focused on bring your own hardware, bring your own desktop and laptop because there are 10s of millions of desktops and laptops sitting there underutilised that can be basically put to work. But as a from a general perspective, I’m also very bullish and very positive about the D pins that require dedicated hardware. And if you ask me what are some of my favourites in that specific space, I love Helium 5G, only available in the US where anyone can basically buy a Helium 5G hotspot and basically create infill 5G networks because we know 5 GS super fast, but doesn’t go very far, doesn’t really go around building.

33:25 So you could set up set up one at home, one at the office. And then when people roam on your 5G, you actually get paid for it.

33:31 Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s. Wild. They give you a little antenna and you stick it outside your window and you’re basically part of the 5G network and you get paid.

33:39 Domenic Carosa: It’s like really wild, I think a lot of people don’t realise, but you can actually do that.

33:44 Brian Rose: Yep. And you can make some money. You can make some pretty good Rois on that, right?

33:49 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, and the other one that I really like is called Hive Mapper.

33:52 It’s basically a decentralised version of Google Maps. And so people will buy this little device called Hive Mapper. You sit it in your car, you drive around, and as you’re driving around, you’re obviously collecting all the data and you’re getting paid for it. And those maps, the Hive Mapper maps are being obviously sold to various companies around the world, and they’re much more up to date than Google, much more real time. And so that’s like another example of taking something that is, you know, traditionally centralised Google Maps and effectively creating a decentralised version of it. 5G networks, decentralised, Google Maps decentralised.

34:32 And I think over time we were just, you know, well, I guess everyone in the industry would just sort of pick off different verticals and then move to create a decentralised version of them.

34:42 Brian Rose: OK, now I’m wearing an aura ring that’s tracking all of my biological data. Well, one day will I be able to plug this into Hivello and you guys will find me the best rates for my data? Or is that slightly different?

34:54 Domenic Carosa: Slightly different in terms of, I mean we will because we’re building big data cubes with all the data that we’re basically generating and and logging from all of the nodes. But I think our philosophy today is focus on what we call the supply side, setting up the millions of computers around the world running Hivello, running various deep insurance, contributing to building out those deep in networks. Because my view is the chicken, the egg comes before the chicken.

35:20 That means that we first need to build the millions of computers around the world, build out that network before big business and business and just companies feel comfortable in actually starting to go deep and exclusively use decentralised infrastructure, because that’s the power of the blockchain.

35:37 Brian Rose: Yeah. And it it’s great for redundancy because you’re not worried about an AWS failure or a Google failure. And we’ve seen those things happen, haven’t we? And that’s.

35:46 Domenic Carosa: So that’s kind of back to that theory of the Internet, the blockchain and this whole thing of decentralisation. Bitcoin is the ultimate test case. Bitcoin has never been down since its founding, whereas all these other networks have been down, Google’s been down, Facebook’s been down, your bank ATM has been down. But Bitcoin, as far as I know, has never been down. And it’s the largest supercomputer in the world, 10 times bigger than the CERN in supercomputer in Switzerland.

36:14 Think about that. And that is one big piece of deep in infrastructure, isn’t it? I mean that that’s, you know, an example of decentralisation at it’s at it’s core in terms of the the Bitcoin network. And then obviously you’ve got you know, Ethereum and the Solana nodes, they’re all you know, effectively same but different in terms of that decentralised concept.

36:34 Brian Rose: OK, exciting. What’s next for you guys?

36:36 And one thing that I thought, well, two things with you. One of the reasons we were so interested and the team was so interested in your project was first of all, you make it so simple. You know, a lot of people want to be involved in Deep End. They know it’s the future, but like they can’t get their head around going to get the Helium rig and then dealing with that token and going to get this rig and then they just get lost. There’s a couple layer ones, but it’s like, OK, are they going to make it happen?

36:59 But what if that layer one fails? And the way that one of our guys, Doctor Encore told the team, he said, look, if you’re bullish on Deep End, then Evella will got you. How’s you covered? Because if Deep End does well, they will do well. The other thing I found interesting about you and I think it’s because of all of your experience in business, in technology and banks is that you’re also looking to spread this kind of also in AB to B way as well as AB to C way.

37:24 And so you guys have a real plan for growth that is playing a little more chess, whereas a lot of the industry seems to be playing checkers. Can you talk about that, Tom?

37:35 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, and this. Goes back to our customer acquisition strategy and and I’ll talk live example the way that the banks you know we built the banks of business was by taking our API and widget and plugging it into global exchanges and wallets like Binance, OK X, Metamask, Trust Wallet and hundreds of other partners.

37:55 And so getting access to millions of eyeballs without spending millions of dollars. And so with Hivello, I’m going to adopt exactly the same strategy. Obviously, we’re going to have AB to C route because to build the community. But where I believe we can get the biggest leverage in our business model is by doing deals with exchanges. We’ve already got a number of exchanges signed up. We’re in the process of signing up many, many more. And the benefit to the exchange is, one, they take a percentage of all the revenue and two, anytime new deep in tokens are generated from that customer, they’ll get transferred to the exchange.

38:32 What does that mean? The customer’s going to log in, see what’s there, do some trading, maybe convert to stable or Bitcoin. So it actually creates a stickier environment with the exchange as well.

38:43 Brian Rose: Nice. OK, gotcha.

38:44 So if I’m by bit, for example, or Binance or something, and I’m a customer of theirs, if they introduce me to Hivello, I’m potentially going to be earning tokens and all these other chains that go into my finance wallet. And now I’ll go back and check on those and I’m a happy customer because I just made some free tokens. Finance made the introduction. This is the kind of an amazing way to grow. I’m getting that right.

39:06 Domenic Carosa: And and and and that’s. The I’m going to call that. That’s the Web 3 angle, yeah, but then. There’s this other. Sort of Web 2 angle, which I’m actually very excited about. It’s still very early days.

39:17 It’s down the charity space. And, and, and this was actually introduced to us, this concept by one of our investors. He’s involved in a number of charities and he said, you know, could we create a version of Hivello? And he gave the example Save the Children and and so, you know, hypothetically the charity could e-mail their user base saying download the Save the Children version example of Hivello. And as it’s generating that money gets donated to the charity. So it’s like passive giving.

39:55 And when, when he told me this idea, I thought A yes, we can do this from a technical perspective and B. Just imagine, you know, the good this will do because charity donations are down. You know, there’s there’s so much that still needs to be done down that space. And this is a way that people don’t even need to think about crypto, but they can just give passively. So we’re we’re speaking to a number of groups.

40:17 I’m going to say that’s going to be a slow burn because charities are not maybe that tech savvy, don’t really understand blockchain. So there’s a real educational process. But all it takes, as you know, in the space is one or two big charities and then it’s then the rest will follow.

40:32 Brian Rose: Yeah. Can you imagine some? Like big national global charity just saying, hey, download this and and then they could have a leaderboard and then they could thank their top 50 donors.

40:42 And you know, it’s a great way to do it. It’s an interesting angle. I haven’t seen that applied. I don’t think anywhere in Web 3. So that’s not.

40:49 Haven’t seen it applied. What does the competition look like? For you out there and obviously there’s people that are kind of focusing on deep in there’s deep in layer ones out there. What does the landscape look like to you? You have your eyes on certain people.

41:03 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, so there’s.

41:04 There’s deep in layer ones. They’re just deep in blockchains, you know, like the peak IOTXS of the world, complementary to us because we’re actually integrating them into our platform. There’s the deep insurance themselves, you know, because you could argue that you could go direct and do it and download a deep in download, you know, Grass or Mysterio or some of the others yourself. But then you come to the issue of you’ve got to have the right wallet. You’ve got to have their token sitting in your wallet to cover the gas, to get on boarded.

41:34 You’ve got to do all these things rather than just click a button with Havalo and you’re up and running. We do have another competitor smaller than us. They’ve taken a more technical approach. You need to download some specialised software before you can even run their software. And my view is, well, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of trying to make it super simple.

41:57 You want to be able to download it like Spotify or iTunes. It needs to be that simple. You log in with your e-mail address, your Gmail account, like it needs to be that simple. And that’s how we’re going to bring the next hundred, 100 million people into crypto through Hivello.

42:13 Brian Rose: OK, what are the next? Three months look like for you, and then the next 12 months right now real.

42:19 Domenic Carosa: Focus on the product and adding many, many more deepings. We’ve obviously got our TGE token generation event and then over the next 12 to 36 months, many more partnerships with exchanges. We’re talking to some hardware companies as well.

42:36 Brian Rose: Yeah, and there’s one could be pre downloaded on a piece of. Hardware.

42:41 So when I get the computer, it’s just already

42:44 Domenic Carosa: making OEM deals. So when you buy a computer, it comes pre installed with Hivello and you can basically earn income and just imagine that in emerging markets because that’s that’s one of the things that I haven’t you touched on it. You know, an extra $2050 couple of $100 a month for us in Western markets may not change. Well, won’t change our life, but if you’re in an emerging market, you know, 2050, a $100 a month that could change your life.

43:11 That’s putting food on the table for the family or not. And so I think in emerging markets deep in has an even bigger opportunity to actually make change, you know, and that’s what actually gets me super excited. I ran an MMA yesterday. I’d say most of the people were in Africa, in the African region, because we kind of ran it in that time zone. And just the amount of positivity and feedback that I had, I was like kind of amazed.

43:38 I thought it was going to be big, but I didn’t expect the kind of positive reaction that he could make to people’s lives.

43:45 Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s really. Interesting because so many companies focus on, you know, this American, European, Asian audience that’s high earner, high demographic. And then we say, yeah, but this is all about decentralisation. But there’s not always a clear use case for what the person in NAFA brings to the table. But if their GPU is the same as your GPU EU or it’s, you know, has processing power, then there’s a real reason and it jacks up your decentralisation in a huge way. It just makes the whole network stronger. So it’s, it’s I’d say one of the biggest arguments for getting that audience involved.

44:22 You know, you mentioned the manufacturers. I’m sure you thought of this, but I mean, I’m wondering if you know someone like, I don’t even know who makes computers these days, but they can sell you the computer and say, guess what? If you agree to have the Hivello app in, I’ll give you a $500 rebate knowing that they’re going to make 800 bucks over the first, you know, 12 months. And it could be really interesting, not only the user, but maybe the the company gets kicked back and maybe that discounts it and moves more hardware. It could be really interesting.

44:51 As long as you keep it plugged in and do this, then you can have this. That’s an interesting piece.

44:57 Domenic Carosa: Yeah. I mean, there’s the OEM. Route and in fact, last week at an event I spoke to a lady who’s involved in an organisation that takes second hand computers from the western world basically make sure that they’re working properly reinstalls the operating system and sends them into emerging markets. And she approached and said could we actually install Hivello on those machines so a with providing them a machine with an ability to actually earn extra income at the same time. So this This is why the the more we go down this sort of Hivello opportunity, all of these new like I you know the the charity angle, the second hand computers into emerging market angle. There are so many different ways that we can actually leverage to what we’ve built.

45:39 But you know crawl before we walk, you know it takes years to actually build a big solid company. We’re only a couple of years old. So we’ve just got our product out there. We’ve got 60 pins. We’re going to be adding another 50 over the next few quarters. There’s a lot on our plate right now, but you know the future looks bright.

45:56 Brian Rose: Do people need like? Broadband and obviously power are those the basics that you need in order to participate

46:03 Domenic Carosa: Internet and. Power. And so the way that we’re educating our audience is think of you running a mini business and your mini business needs power and Internet and that’s pretty much all you need to do, OK.

46:15 Brian Rose: Yeah, all my brain spinning now be interesting. You know, you could, yeah.

46:20 I mean, like you said, that second hand computer thing is very interesting. You know, you could ask somebody, hey, you know, will you do this job if I send you a second hand computer? And they’d be like, yeah, maybe, but what if I send you this computer, ask you to do this job, check in once a day, but also it’s making you money and you might get a lot more yeses. So yeah, it could really open things up. And then 12 months from now, 24 months from now, you just want this massive amount of decentralised compute power plugged into Havalo.

46:51 That’s what you’re looking for.

47:02 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, just millions. Of people around the world running Havalo, which then means under the hood they’re running anywhere from 8:00 to 12:00 deep insurance themselves. How do you?

48:03 So effectively creating a network with millions, you know, hundreds of millions of nodes around the world that’s powering the DP networks that then companies, businesses and people can utilise. So I really focused on that supply side

48:18 Brian Rose: and will Hivello. Like switch me to different depends depending on the hour of the day and who’s paying the most money. Like how how dynamic is that?

48:28 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, so. That’s part of our secret sauce because what you get paid for a DPN will determine will be determined by where your computer’s actually located and also the market dynamics. So you could have different DPNS. So you and I could have been separate countries, have exactly the same hardware and Internet connection, but we would have different DPNS installed and getting paid a different amount because there would be a different demand for an IP address storage or a content distribution network in London versus me in the Netherlands or in Australia. And so partly what what we’re doing is we’re building a data cube.

49:08 So part of this business is actually a data business. You only get a small amount of data on chain with regards to what deepens and the revenues. And so we’re building this data cube that’s basically allowing us to capture all the data. So we will know these are the deepens, they’re best in these countries on this type of configuration. And then when there’s a new deepen that comes out because we’ve already been approached by many new deepens who want, you know, 50,100 thousand nodes set up instantaneously because they have demand for it. But it will take them six months, 12 months to get set up. So part of the value proposition will be we’re going to be able to help fast track them and give them 100,000 have our own nodes. They’ll obviously need to give us a bunch of tokens that we share with our customers.

49:54 Brian Rose: So it’s really win, win for for everyone involved, right. So somebody comes. In like I need 100,000 nodes. You go to your customers and say guess what, this rate just went up. I’m going to get you paid more and you’re going to switch over to this network now and set this up and I won’t even know what’s happening.

50:09 I’ll just get more money automatically it all. Happens in the background. So powerful because. Everybody wants nodes right now. Like that’s the key.

50:17 Everybody wants this decentralisation, they want them everywhere, but it’s hard to go and convince an individual consumer to just run one of those, even if it’s easy and they can do it on their phone. But you guys can be the place. So there’s all sorts of business models here and the data itself can be very valuable to people. What’s going on, who’s using it, how are they using it, etcetera. Let me ask you a random question. Who is buying this compute on the other end? You know, we know that Amazon and Elon Mcgrok and all these others, they’re going straight to NVIDIA. They’re getting these huge data centres and they’re doing it themselves.

50:49 You know, Zuckerberg building nuclear power plants are trying to Google just bought 3 Mile Island and they’re going to fire that thing up. Trump’s even talking about how much power AI needs. But who’s using the infrastructure and and is that important?

51:05 Domenic Carosa: Absolutely. Important.

51:06 I think the first step is building out the supply side, building out that infrastructure. It’s like a a mobile phone network. You can’t attract customers until you’ve built 7080% of that network. So and that actually takes time More and more businesses are now coming on board, particularly in the AI space, given that there is a an economic benefit like an 80% saving and using a decentralised AI, you know, AI infra to train your, your models, then going to the Amazon or the Googles.

51:38 Brian Rose: OK, all right, so we’ll.

51:40 See what happens once the infrastructure is built. But corporations around the world, probably smaller corporations not. Maybe top tier will start looking at this and maybe top tiers will as well. If it’s cheaper GPU and compute, who knows, they might use it too. Yep.

51:56 OK. Will it ever rival, do you think, the big data centres that the big boys build?

52:01 Domenic Carosa: I don’t think it’s going to replace centralization. It would just, in my view, work alongside. There’ll be a hybrid model, there’ll be the centralised infra and then there’ll be the decentralised infra.

52:14 And like the 5G example, you’ve got the telcos with their centralised infrastructure and then you’ve got helium 5G that sits along beside basically providing infill, right? So you could think of it from a data centre perspective. You know, what do you need to do? You need to obviously have store a lot of data and you want to get your data as close to the customer. That’s why you have CDN networks.

52:39 And so I think one of the, the first big opportunities will be data centres partnering with decentralised CDN networks because that would just get their content closer to the the person that actually needs it. And so, you know, that’s another potential use example, you know, usage of decentralised infra.

52:56 Brian Rose: OK, I got to ask you this. Question. You know, a few years from now, maybe 10 years from now, when the humans go to war with the machines and we’re like Terminator two and three and we’re with John Connor fighting in the trenches, these T pen networks are going to be super useful then, aren’t they? I mean, like if again, you want to wrestle control over centralised power, whether that be the Googles and the Amazons of the world or the AI’s of the world. Like I’m a little bit joking, but I’m a little bit not joking. Like it’s nice to know that there’s a peer-to-peer way of continuing the technology we all rely on without these centralised entities, right?

53:34 What do you say to that? Yeah.

53:38 Domenic Carosa: I, I won’t say it keeps me up at night, but I’ve actually thought about it quite a lot in regards to, I think like in life, they’ll be the polar, they’ll be the, the good and the bad. And then they’ll be the good AI actors and the bad AI actors. And I actually think in future wars right now, we’ve still got bombs flying around. I think in wars, you know, there’ll be virtual wars in terms of taking over infrastructure and it will be driven by AI and, and, and, and I think that has a real potential of actually wiping out humanity. You know, if, if the, if AI believes that it’s better without humans, you know, I think we’ve, we’ve got and which is why, you know, Musk over the last few years has really been trying to advocate for, you know, some kind of, you know, safety protocols around AI.

54:29 Because as I think one of the Google researchers who’s no longer at Google, who’s basically been silenced, worked out the AI after a certain point took a life of its own and actually started using humans doing things like like for example, it was basically AI, it was using tokens and, and a way of getting paid. And it couldn’t read some of the capture, you know, when you go to a website you go to. So it went on to like a mechanical Turk type platform, which basically paid humans. So the robots use their own intelligence to pay a human to fill the capture to basically allow the robot to get access to that particular website or platform. So just think about that for a minute. Yeah, that was driven by AI.

55:18 Brian Rose: Yeah, I read about that. For sure. And then also now in crypto, it’s getting even weirder. So there’s these AI agents that now are getting hold of meme coins and promoting them, and they’re getting hundreds of millions of dollars of value. Some of them are now actually creating their own meme coins, and some can trade their own meme coins. And some of these things are racking up hundreds of millions of dollars.

55:41 And Andreessen, Marc Andreessen has given them a few grants and things like that. But it’s like I started asking something the other day. What happens when they make enough money and they buy out Andreessen? You know, like, what happens when these things, like, they literally have hundreds of millions of dollars? So the example you give was great.

55:58 OK, They paid someone at Fiverr to solve some of these problems. What happens if they amass massive amounts of capital and then this is the meme coin business so they know how to trigger humans on a mass scale and now they have huge amounts of capital and start buying out companies? I mean it gets pretty crazy pretty quick. Maybe that’s an AI discussion, but like the fact that there is a decentralised, you know, physical infrastructure network, it feels like that is a little bit of a hedge against centralised compute and maybe centralised AI.

56:30 Of course, maybe AI could infect any platform, but it feels like you could take that network offline. You could keep it in a small pot of people to where maybe you could fight back, yeah.

56:42 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, and I think there are benefits in decentralisation as opposed to it would be much easier to just take over a centralised network then it will be a decentralised network in my view. And just I guess give another example, if God forbid all the telco and all the Internet went out, there’s actually now enough nodes, Helium IoT nodes that are now around the world where I could basically send you a message from Australia and it would reach you. There’s a little device that you can buy that actually uses IoT. It’s only maybe, you know, 200 characters. So we can’t obviously have a conversation or a video call, but I could actually send you a message over this IoT network. And that’s, and, and that’s the power of of, you know, decentralisation because if the centralised networks go down, there actually are networks that we can use to still communicate so important.

57:35 So that would be a. Text message we would send and it would go basically from machine to machine to machine all over the world.

57:41 Brian Rose: And look, we saw this happen. There was the hurricane in North Carolina and they had power down and apparently they were had all these people in line for gas, but they couldn’t pay because they couldn’t contact their credit card. And people were stuck.

57:54 And everyone said, wow, do you have any crypto? Because it was the only way they could potentially exchange value for what was going on here. Then Trump called up Musk and he brought in, you know, Starlink to get things powered up. But like that’s a pretty good real world example of something shutting down. And if something gets shut down, like humans will come to a standstill if the major of your power, if your, you know, phone lines and all that are gone, like what are you going to do? So I feel much better knowing there’s deep end out there and the bigger you guys get, the more safer we’re going to be. Maybe we’ll game plan the AI stuff at the end. But I want to talk to you about crypto markets. So you’re here today and I don’t think it’s a coincidence, Dom, that we just made an all time high in Bitcoin across 94,000. Hell, by the time we’ve been done talking, might be already at 95,000.

58:39 Now, I don’t know about you, but I’ve been waking up the last 10 days, 5-7 days, you know, looking at Bitcoin over 90,000. And I told all of my, you know, Academy members to just take a pause every morning. You know, any day where bitcoins above 90 grand is a good day. It’s a bit like in war where the general says any day above ground is a good day. I mean, these are amazing times we’re in right now.

59:04 And it feels like we’re just getting started. Obviously, you know, the Trump trade is on and the Trump pump and we have a new administration and he hasn’t even gotten started yet. But it looks like Gary Gensler gave his resignation speech. And all things point to the biggest bull market we’ve ever seen, the biggest adoption from retail we’ve ever seen, the biggest crypto influencer, Trump talking about crypto every single week, probably next year. What are your thoughts because you’ve been in this business longer than most?

59:42 Domenic Carosa: In order to in my view sometimes 1 needs to look at the past in order to try and predict the future. My view is 2025 will be a bull market for crypto with a peak around November, December, which mirrors 2021, 2017, 2013. It’s it’s the peaks and troughs.

1:00:00 I think we’re going to get to a point where crypto doesn’t have those significant peaks and troughs as it has in the past as it matures. But if I was to look just forward 12 months, because I think trying to predict further out is, is challenging. My view is we are just at the start of a bull market. If you’re asking me, you know, earlier this year I said I reckon Bitcoin’s going to get to 100 grand by Christmas. I think it’s going to get there before Christmas time. And as soon as a number of the large global banks start buying crypto as part of their reserve, I think we’re going to see quarter million to half, $1,000,000 pretty pretty quickly I in the next 12 months really, yeah.

1:00:49 Brian Rose: You know I was talking.

1:00:51 To. My team yesterday and I said, you know, Max Keiser, who was on the show in 2013, I bought my first Bitcoin because of Max. His pictures on the wall, you know, he just tweeted out and said when this breaks 100, you know, it goes to 115. Like there’s no, there’s no price history. There’s not obviously any resistance up there. And it makes you really ask yourself, like, what is the price of Bitcoin?

1:01:15 What should it be? And it’s really hard to make an argument that it’s not 150 or 200 or 250 or 500. Now every country in the world is now talking about buying it. Poland came out a couple days ago and said they want to buy some. We obviously know the US is talking about a strategic reserve with Senator Lummus.

1:01:33 We know Russia has a chunk. We know Ukraine has a chunk. We know China has some. We know Qatar has been buying. We know I’m sure the Middle East is either buying or thinking about buying. And then you talk about the banks, then we talk about the ETFs, but I haven’t heard anyone make that prediction that it could really go to crazy levels next year. My.

1:01:55 Domenic Carosa: View is, you know, I’ll make a prediction. Bitcoin quarter $1,000,000 by Christmas 2025 November, December 2025.

1:02:02 Brian Rose: OK. But you really think it’s higher?

1:02:05 Domenic Carosa: If some of the big. If the US themselves, not, not a state, not Pennsylvania.

1:02:10 Brian Rose: Yeah, he’s taught.

1:02:11 He’s about to put it basically trying to prove it through their, their internal process.

1:02:16 Domenic Carosa: But if it’s the US buying it as part of their strategic reserve, I think we’ve, you know, I think the two 50K will be blown out of the water by Christmas. It’s a bit like the. ETF was the US blessing the asset, but when the US Treasury holds it, that blesses it on a whole nother level.

1:02:34 Brian Rose: And you’re saying Pennsylvania like pension fund or teachers fund is already looking at it as part of the yeah, the state of Pennsylvania?

1:02:42 Domenic Carosa: Right state of.

1:02:43 Brian Rose: Look, it’s now a real financial asset and if it’s a non correlated financial asset, I mean that makes any portfolio manager drool because like it’s like coming from Mars, like those don’t come around every now and then. They don’t exist. They already have all the non correlated assets in their portfolio. Here’s a new one and Kevin O’Leary talks about that. They’re going to, you have to have some. It doesn’t matter really what the price is. You just have to have 3 to 5% of it and they’re all going to go buy it.

1:03:10 And so I love having these conversations where it feels like we’re just going to pause the cameras right now and we’re going to go buy some more Bitcoin and we’ll be right back. But so you’re super bullish these four year cycles, don’t I? Look, I know that they’re consistent and I know they’re beautiful and predictable. But of course, every time everyone says it’s different this time. This is the Super cycle. There’s so many new factors here. Could that be the case?

1:03:37 Domenic Carosa: My conservative side says no, the cycles will continue a bit like, you know, you know, recessions have happened every X 7-8 years or maybe more in certain countries. So I think this the cycle will continue, but the lowest that it will go to would just be, you know, at a higher amount than what it was in the prior cycle. So I think yeah, what are we, we’re sort of 15 years in maybe when Bitcoin and the whole ecosystem is 30 years old. Maybe at that point there’ll be a bit more stability in it. But I, I will work on the basis that there’s going to be a peak. It’s going to be at the end of 2025. And at that point maybe take some profits or frankly, like me, I just, I huddle, I don’t really care what the price is, you know, stick it in the bottom drawer, come back to it in 30 years time.

1:04:27 Brian Rose: That’s for Bitcoin or all of your mainly Bitcoin ain’t Bitcoin, OK? What about market size? Because right now we’re around 3.1 trillion. A year ago I had a really good interesting conversation with Alex Wasel, Swissborg and he said, Brian, I’m going to keep an eye on total market size. And I when it gets to six or seven trillion, he said that’s when I think is the cycle topping out and I won’t be looking at specific Bitcoin prices or other things just to total market cap.

1:04:55 Do you think that’s something to keep an eye on?

1:04:58 Domenic Carosa: Yes. But I’d say that the whole spike in mean coin could be an aberration with regards to that because I still think Bitcoin is the is the bellwether. And if you go back to the last cycle, you know, what was traded, you know, cyberpunks, you know, for a million, two million, 5,000,000 bucks for, you know, an NFT that’s literally just a digital representation. Yeah, mean coins, I’m not saying mean coins or NFTS because it’s, it’s a completely different, completely different from a technical perspective, but I think the audience that it brings on board and the, you know, the loss of the velocity in terms of trading, I think they’re actually quite a few similarities. And, and so I, I’m a big believer of, you know, the mean coin narrative this cycle, whether or not I believe in mean coins long term, I think for me, the jury’s still out. You know, some are saying that it’s, it’s the attention economy because really at the end of the day, a min coin has no value. You know, there is no utility to a min coin. However you do, there is no an element of attention and focus on that min coin.

1:06:12 And maybe we’ll over time we’ll start seeing min coins evolve into into something that actually does create some kind of utility. But once again, we’re still really early days in in the whole cycle.

1:06:23 Brian Rose: Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m trying to really open my mind up in a painful way and trying to look at these quote unquote meme coins in different ways. And I feel like it’s an old man argument of this utility.

1:06:35 And I think we both have to notice that our age and what our age is because our our age effects our perception of the world in such a big way. You know, Buffett missed the Internet and missed Apple for a long time and he’ll never understand crypto. Neither will Pena and neither will a lot of people. I had Dan Tapiaro in here from 10 T Holdings. 10T stands for 10 trillion by the way, which is where he thinks the markets going.

1:06:56 He said, Brian, I’ve spoken to everyone around the world. He said, you know what the single determining factor is that they if they get Bitcoin or not. He said it’s not education, it’s not amount of money, it’s not salary, it’s not this. He said it’s their age. He said over 50 they struggle, under 20.

1:07:11 It’s obvious, you know, to them. And I’ve been doing a deep dive on what meme coins are. I mean, you just said they had no utility. I always tell Bitcoiners that, that Bitcoin was a meme coin for three or four years. It was just a bunch of dorks playing with their little Internet money science project that meant nothing.

1:07:27 And then now it has utility because it’s a store of value. It’s a store of value because so many people believed in it. There’s a cult behind it that’s now decentralised and now it’s legit. You know, the dollar, when it started, it was just a bunch of rebels in America throwing tea in the fucking thing. And then now it’s a legit thing.

1:07:44 Do they have utility or do they just have a network? So these are interesting questions, and I’ve heard some really compelling arguments about what a mean coin is. Is it attention? Is it culture? Is it a belonging? Is it gambling?

1:07:59 Is it is it fun? I don’t know. I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone knows all of the above. It’s all. The above and.

1:08:06 And probably some other adjectives we have not even created yet. We don’t even understand this. This is a reflection of who we are as humans. We’ve never looked in this mirror before. Like you, when you did your SETI stuff, you were hoping that a star got named after you because that was the only thing that was on the table. Now you’ve got a token that trades 24/7 and you got social media and all these other things happening. It’s like, but you can’t dismiss it. You know, DOGE is doubled and the top 25 coins on market cap 3 or 4 memes.

1:08:35 The top 100, there’s like 10 and I think they’re only going to go up. And so anyways, I just think they’re going to be an interesting part of the narrative. And the reason I bring it up is because I think we can all learn a lot about meme coins because there’s a component of meme and Hivello, there’s a component of meme and every coin. So it’s going to be interesting to see what happens. I talked to somebody the other day and he said I think all of online gambling is going to be moved into the meme coin space. And I thought that was just an interesting concept. You know, maybe you don’t want to bet on sports anymore, maybe you don’t want to bet here, but maybe you want to do that into the mean coin space or maybe the new generation is. So I think it’s a narrative to watch all this stuff. Is this good for Havella?

1:09:15 If next year bitcoins at 250,000 in December, how does that drive business to Havella?

1:09:21 Domenic Carosa: What ultimately? Will mean is that as Bitcoin increases in in price and value, what we’ve seen is all the other tokens also lift up in value generally speaking. And so that means that running Havalo nodes will become even more profitable or lucrative. So I think. That’s that’s a big opportunity in terms of just continuing to add more deep insurance and then using AI to optimise for maximum Roy.

1:09:51 And then obviously with the Hivello token next quarter, you know add adding to that as extra APY as people in in D5 like to say,

1:09:59 Brian Rose: OK and. Are you riding the Hivello train like for the next 5 years? What do you think happens? What do you think it looks like five years out?

1:10:08 Domenic Carosa: I, I usually from a business perspective, I like to try and start with the end in mind. And my view is I actually think Hivello over the next five years will be bought out by a infrastructure company, you know, a Cisco and Netgear of the world. Because what I believe Hivello can do is actually help create a new vertical, you know, in the appliance space. So think of Cisco, they could buy Hivello and create a new box that people around the world can buy that they just plug in and it basically does all these things in the background and they get paid for it.

1:10:43 So it’s basically you’re creating a new category for the major hardware where companies. So that, so that’s part of my thinking in regards to where because I was trying to always think with the end in mind. We’ve got investors, investors eventually want some kind of liquidity event and hence that’s my view of where where I think we can take Hivello.

1:11:06 Brian Rose: Nice. OK, good.

1:11:07 And you know, you you’ve done so many different things. Obviously the banks a piece. You’ve also, you know, invested money before you know, why jump back in the trenches? And how is this experience different from the last time that you know, you started a company?

1:11:26 Domenic Carosa: I I’ve. Been involved in running companies and also running funds since the early 90s.

1:11:32 You know, I basically finished high school. I went to university for six weeks. I dropped out because I was bored as batshit. Just, I don’t know if I can say that on on air, but I was just, I was bored in university and, and I set up a company, you know, in the video game space and then got involved in software. So I’ve, I’ve always gotten my hands dirty with tech because I’m deep down, I’m a nerd.

1:11:54 I remember in my school holidays when I was a teenager, I used to run a bulletin board. This is kind of precursor to the Internet where you had a modem and people would dial in one at a time. And so I was like, so happy I had a computer and running two modems. It was like A2 node, you know, like I was a big wig back then when I was a teenager. And so I’ve always loved technology and trying to do new things.

1:12:21 And what I’ve kind of learnt is I love to get involved and do in the 1st, I’m going to say 2345 years, get my hands dirty. And then at that point, bring in professional management, get other people to help take the business to the, to the next level. I, I’ve learned, you know, you know, both, you know, sort of right and wrong. I love start-ups starting with a blank sheet of paper is is just a real passion because we’re we’re creating the future and and I know that you know my own stuff and I know we’re getting into some of the detail. I’m good when it up to about 50 to 80 people, 3510 million of revenue.

1:13:05 That’s kind of my, that’s where I hit a ceiling and a ceiling maybe not from a capability perspective, albeit I think there are managers that are much better than me once we get to that level, because once a business gets to 100 people, it’s, it’s about process and systems. And I hate like I love processing systems to a certain degree, but when it comes to operational businesses, there are people that love that on a daily basis, while I prefer the chaos of a startup, not knowing where the revenue is going to come from, where’s the next customer like that? To me, that’s actually the really exciting part.

1:13:40 And, and what I’ve learned as well is, you know, some of the people that are really good at operationally aren’t necessarily really, really good at start-ups. They will know where to start in a start up. So I’ve kind of learned over time and you know, I just turned 50, what am I good at? What am I not so good at? And the things that I’m not good at, I bring in the experts, I bring in the people who are the experts and really good at those areas. So important.

1:14:05 Brian Rose: Reminds me of a a line from Dirty Harry who was the Clint Eastwood character in the movies back in the day. He was a cop and he always used to say a man has to know his limitations, and that’s a sign of maturity. And I know what you mean. There’s some people that are really good at operating machines and processes and taking them to the next level. And there’s some people that like the chaos of a start up. I’m probably the latter as well.

1:14:29 Brian Rose: And so you know when to build it and you know when to hand it over to someone else.

1:14:34 Domenic Carosa: Yep. Yeah, I’ve got. A saying that the true success of an entrepreneur is to put him or herself out of a job. Yeah. Unfortunately, most entrepreneurs, other people take them out of the job, right?

1:14:47 Brian Rose: And it’s usually a sad story of them trying to hang on, right? Probably like fighters trying to fight one too many fights. What else excites you in this in this area right now, whether it’s in blockchain? Obviously you’re a huge fan of AI and watching what’s going on there, but what else do you have your eye on in the background? I.

1:15:06 Domenic Carosa: Mean other than Hivello, I’m a big believer of, of AI and, and I think we’re just getting started in terms of AII. As soon as Musk releases a wait list for Optimus Prime, I’m going to put my name down. I cannot wait to buy because I’m I’m partly thinking is I’m sure there’ll be an aspect that will be open source. There’ll be a way to actually create a whole bunch of extra programming, effectively training the optimist to do a whole bunch of other stuff. And I actually think that’s going to be a new wave of, of opportunity. I think, you know, conversely, I think it’s going to put 10s of millions of people out of a job.

1:15:48 And I think we need to, you know, as a society, think about what do we actually do with these displaced people? There’s only so much time, you know, you can be sipping pina coladas at the beach. People need meaning in their life. So I think that’s that’s AI don’t need a problem that or a challenge that I haven’t thought about solving yet, But I think that’s coming. It’s coming pretty quick and you know, I love space and I think what Musk, once again, what Musk is doing.

1:16:16 As you can tell, I’m a bit of a Musk fanboy in terms of creating a, you know, a, a multi planetary species. I think that is super important. Not only do we have now the threat of, you know, nuclear World War three potentially about to happen on our doorstep. There is the threat of AI, maybe not as immediate as a nuclear threat, but definitely threats over the next 10 years. So I think as a species we must become interplanetary, whether it’s Mars, whether it’s the moon or elsewhere. You know, I think that’s the next big challenge is making sure as a as a society we actually are still here in 1000 years time, 2000 years time, right? Just to have that redundancy.

1:17:01 Because we could easily screw something up here.

1:17:04 Brian Rose: Yeah, So many new attack vectors as well. Like with AI, yeah, look, AI, we can have a whole episode about that. It’s it can go. You can go pretty dark if you go deep there.

1:17:13 Brian Rose: What happens when you’re optimist is is standing over you when you wake up at 3:00 in the morning and then just staring at you and you say optimist, what are you doing? Put the kitchen knife away.

1:17:25 Domenic Carosa: Yeah, Well that. That that’s, I’m, I’m sure there’ll be some kind of safety and, and, and I think that’s what Musk was actually pushing for early on. And a part of the reason is no longer involved in open AI or chat GPTS because they didn’t implement these, you know, the, the release valves, the safety features, which I think are really important when building AI. So I’m definitely not dark on AI. I’m I’m super, super bullish.

1:17:52 In fact, I was involved, you know, 7-8 years ago, we actually built a Co founder in a company called unit that actually built talking heads. I’m no longer involved there because the company’s grown up and it runs itself. And so we basically built talking heads that allow you to have one-on-one conversations, but it’s all AI in the back end. And, and so, you know, for me, that’s, I think just really the next step. And, you know, the optimist is really the, the human, the, the, the tactile version of of it.

1:18:24 But I can see, yeah, a a bunch of Optimus Primes, you know, get going to Mars, going to the moon because they don’t need oxygen and actually helping set up set up the settlements in those areas or on an asteroid, for example.

1:18:38 Brian Rose: Yeah, I hadn’t even thought about that. Yeah, that’s pretty heavy. Just let’s let’s linger on Musk a bit. You know, he’s just continuing to evolve. Obviously, buying Twitter was probably one of the most single important steps for humanity, I believe, by allowing this free dialogue to continue over the last couple years. And then obviously he went all in on Trump and probably was pivotal in getting him elected by going on the ground in Pennsylvania and using all of his creativity, the doorstepping and everything that he did.

1:19:10 And now I’m going in for this Department of Government efficiency with Vivek, and it looks like they’re going to try to go in there and slash and burn. What do you make of this transformation of Musk and what he’s contributed so far from X maybe to Tesla, to optimist, to SpaceX?

1:19:33 Domenic Carosa: He. Is the Edison of our times and I think we will look back in 100 years, 200 years and say he was an I mean he is an absolute genius and and so I you know, I think he will be celebrated.

1:19:48 I think right now in certain parts of the community, he’s not for a number of political reasons. I think him buying Twitter or XI think that. Has been a catalyst in terms of saving free speech. I’m super concerned with what’s going on in different parts of the world here in the UK legislation, Australia, that’s in the process or trying to be passed in terms of misinformation and disinformation, because who is the arbitra of this? Who determines is this correct or not or not correct? And, and I’m of you and I don’t know who who said this specifically, but you know, I may not agree with what you’re saying, but I will fight to the death. Your ability to actually be able to say that, you know, you’re right to actually be able to say that. And, and and I think that is fundamental in terms of us being, you know, human beings and actually being free. And so I think him buying X and I love the community notes feature, like, yeah, there’s all these media companies and the incumbents that are basically throwing stones, but what has he done?

1:20:55 One, he’s actually made the algorithm open source. You can actually go in there and see how that algo works. None of the other social media companies have done that. Two, he’s added community notes so anyone can add community notes and all those community notes are open source. So even if he gets community noted, he can’t go and remove it. None of the other social media companies have actually done that.

1:21:18 So I think but but they all hate him because he kind of to a degree is going to take away. And we’ve already seen it in terms of people exiting, you know, Instagram and Facebook and all the other social media platforms and moving to X, you could argue. That there wouldn’t be a Trump victory without X? You could make that argument that we wouldn’t have been able to share information to get the word out about what was actually happening or actually being said. You know, you could, you could probably make a pretty strong argument for that.

1:21:48 Brian Rose: The community notes feature is pretty fascinating because I think it, it really gets the notes from people who have a, a history of not agreeing with the person that posts. So it’s this weird kind of check and balance system inside. And like you said, all that all goes Republic. And I love the community notes feature. You know, it’s like, yeah, you know, I mean, you know, I follow people and I just see the community notes in there and it’s just like, oh, OK, here’s some just really what seems to be very honest rebuttal, you know, coming from, you know, people, you know, on the opposite side.

1:22:22 And it’s like, it’s really refreshing how he’s done that. I guess that’s just Musk going to 1st principles and zooming out and saying, OK, what’s the best way to do this and then put it into practise. So yeah, it’s, it’s pretty powerful. It’s just fascinating. I feel like we’re clearly in a simulation right now after the assassination attempt and then this dream team of Musk and Trump and Bobby Kennedy and all these people.

1:22:46 And then they all show up to the UFC last Saturday and they’re sitting in the front row and I’m like, is this real what we’re watching here? And then Bitcoin goes to 100,000. It’s just it’s a crazy time and I think we dodged a massive bullet in this world on November 5th, and I don’t know what’s going to happen. There’s still a lot of dangerous things in the world still. But I really believe that if you had to game scenario that out in the future, that would have cut off his centuries of human existence. Yeah.

1:23:18 Domenic Carosa: The other initiative that I’m sorry, first of all, I think Trump is good for crypto, absolutely. I think he’s definitely good for business. I think we can all agree with that. I think he’s good in terms of much less warmongering than than others. I may not agree with everything that he does or say it say says, but I think overall, you know, I’m not AUS citizen so I wasn’t able to vote.

1:23:44 But on balance, I think, you know, clearly he makes them more, much more sense than the other person. But what I, I guess I’m extremely excited about is Doge and not doge the coin, but the, the Department of Government efficiency, because government departments have basically just been continually, you know, adding resource, adding basically people. And what people don’t realise is government departments I all those costs, that’s just another form of inflation. That’s another form of taking from the people and, and you know, we’ve already seen, I mean, on X, you know, the amount of wastage.

1:24:24 I mean, that was the Department of Defence 7th year in a row or was it the, the Pentagon, you know, missed, you know, X billions of dollars just went missing. Like it was trillions. Trillions. Like if that. Happened to an individual the IRS would be so far, you know, up them basically, you know, trying to audit them and yet the actual institutions and not being appropriately audited all there’s, you know, billions of dollars. How do you how can you miss you know, was it 84 bill? Whatever it was, it was just crazy numbers. Yeah, it was like 12 trillion.

1:24:56 Something crazy high. Crazy high. Yeah. If that was an individual, the IRS, if that was a business, you know, that would not, that would never fly for the investors or for anybody else. But it flies in there. Yeah.

1:25:09 There’s a massive amount of work to do there, I think. Javier Malou of Argentina, apparently Elon’s already talking to him because he set a pretty big precedent by literally closing down so many of their institutions. He’s famous for ripping him off the board, and I think he’s had some really impressive results even in 12 months. But I think a lot of people don’t realise is that it also adds to inflation and it makes it takes the teeth out of democracy because you think you elect a president to go in there and change things for four years.

1:25:41 But meanwhile, all of these bureaucracies just sit there and they just smile and nod. Sure, sure, we’ll do that. And you’re going to be gone in 3 1/2 years. And then some other goofball’s going to come in and we’re going to smile and nod. Meanwhile, we’re going to get paid. We’re going to keep doing whatever the hell we want to do. And I don’t think we realise the degree of of how these organisations work on their own.

1:26:00 We saw a little bit with maybe Trump and all these organisations that pushed back against him. But yeah, I really hope they can get in there and change things. And I know Vivek wants to slash and burn 80% of what’s going on. So my and if I was. Talking to Musk and Vivek make Doge open source so other governments around the world can do the same thing. That’s that’s my message to those guys.

1:26:26 Brian Rose: Love that.

1:26:27 That’s good, and I know. Elon wants to put it all public on X and just be really transparent about what they’re doing. But I like that open source software for making governments efficient Dom. What is the best way that people can jump on Hivello right now? Start using it. Start learning more about it.

1:26:46 Learn about the token, learn about what you guys are doing in the future.

1:26:50 Domenic Carosa: The best way to learn? About Hivello is go to Hivello.com Follow us on Twitter. We’re also on Discord as well for the the more DJs of us and basically just download the software and basically start playing with it and love to get people’s feedback. Nice.

1:27:05 So on the home page you. Can literally click and download based on your operating system and then boom you can just set it up and just go from there. It’s literally 2 minutes.

1:27:13 Brian Rose: Always to set up right and just start earning. Basically. And then follow you on Twitter.

1:27:17 Find out what’s going on tokens being generated soon will just mean that anybody using Avello can now start getting rewards and perks and all sorts of other added features from your native token boosts and things like that that’ll just help them earn more in the long run

1:27:32 Domenic Carosa: Yep so as of today there’s. A point system that will then eventually get converted to tokens like many of the other deepings out there.

1:27:39 Brian Rose: OK. And your timing? Is perfect at this point, right? Pretty, pretty crazy because you started this a couple years ago, right?

1:27:46 2-3 years ago and now you come to TG EE right as Bitcoin crosses 100,000. What do you make of that dog?

1:27:53 Domenic Carosa: We started. Hivello as a concept before deep in was actually a term. Deep in as a term is just over a year old coined by Masari. And so we were, we were kind of looking at this and actually experimenting and deploying helium miners. So we kind of pivoted the business from hardware to to software.

1:28:14 But it, what it meant is we kind of had a bit of a head start before DPN actually started becoming popular, which is kind of, you know, if I look at my, my past over the last 30 or so using in tech, that’s, that’s kind of what I like to do is, you know, look over the, the edge and see and try and see what’s over the horizon. And that’s once again, that’s what gets me excited, right.

1:28:35 Brian Rose: So you’re constantly tinkering. And then you go with something and then you pivot quickly and then you find out the model and then you’re ahead of the competition. That’s kind of your story and you’re doing it again here. Yep, Dom, we are super pumped to be invested in Hivello. The team is always really impressed. I remember you came on one of our calls and you came back on the call and it’s just the feeling we all get is that you are a super seasoned guy who’s been there and done this many, many times and you’re playing not only chess but 4D chess. And when we just listen to you, first of all, you know you’re very good at communicating, you’re very good at operating, and you’ve got really deep strategy, strategy and really deep concepts.

1:29:17 And it made everyone feel really good that we wanted to be a part of this. So we’re really excited and can’t wait for the future. I’m going to get sure make sure Hivello’s downloaded for all of our computers here and start making money off of these things and wishing you all the best with tge scaling this thing. And I hope everybody goes and just goes to Hivello.com, downloads this and starts making some money for their GPS that are sitting there doing nothing.

1:29:43 So wishing you all the best, man, and thanks so much for having us. Thank you. All right, man, my pleasure. Thanks, pleasure. Thank you.