Full transcript: Alexander Ward on London Real
1:15 Welcome to a very special edition of London Real. I am here with Mr. Alexander Ward, who you would have seen? Originally about a year ago, was episode called The Chosen One, when he talked about ayahuasca documentary, and he was most recently guest host when we had Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris, and he was a, he’s a doctor who’s doing MRI studies on the effects of psilocybin mushrooms and on MDMA in the brain, and Today Alex and I are going to explore dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT, and the spirit molecule.
1:47 Yeah, that’s often a nickname it’s been associated with the spirit molecule, can I, right? Indeed. Okay, and Dr. Carhart-Harris said that the chemical difference between psilocybin and DMT, they were very, very similar chemicals. I believe, yeah, yeah, incredibly similar. And I think that can be attested to with people who have had kind of first-hand experience between these various different psychedelics, that there is a huge overlap, and, you know, many people report just how many the exact same experiences.
2:18 But, right, even with, you, psychedelic and DMT is the active component in ayahuasca. Yeah, that is, many what is responsible for the kind of amazing experiences people go through with ayahuasca. The main component of that is the DMT, and yeah, you can get the extracted, synthesized form of DMT, which is what we’re here to talk about, right? So we are going to do something, maybe a little controversial today, is something Alexander, I have talked about for a couple months and something that we are going to do today.
2:47 We are going to discuss the, the basics of dimethyltryptamine, and then Alexander and I are going to make a quick plane trip to the continent where we will smoke DMT. My first time. Alex has done this four or five times. All right, then we’re going to come back to London, and later tonight we’re going to plug in and give you our experiences. I really don’t know what to expect.
3:07 I am a little nervous. How are you feeling? I’m okay with it. I think anyone who goes through this, they cannot stop their hands from shaking know if they go into a DMT experience, because it is such a great unknown. And it’s perfectly natural to be quite intimidated by the experience.
3:23 Yeah, I think Terence McKenna said that there’s a reason that when people go and take psychedelics sit there, they have fear, and he said, you don’t see a lot of people that are going to meditate when their knees are not. That’s right, because I say to people, oftentimes when they’re gonna go into their first ayahuasca ceremony, I say you should be scared, because there are a lot of unknown things that you’re probably going to confront. So I think it’s a healthy thing.
3:50 Especially with the psychedelics, you’re forced to deal with things that are quite very, very deep within you, and I think in a certain sense people notice about themselves there’s kind of hiding some things about them, and through the psychedelic experience, everything in the unconscious is just brought right up into the conscious, and you’re forced to deal with certain things about yourself that you may not be looking forward to. Yeah. And so for the next half hour, Alex and I are going to talk about about DMT, because I know a lot of people hearing that we are going to go and smoke some controlled substance in order to, you know, have a 15-minute mental experience, are going to look at it as a narcotic and, and we are here to discuss why we believe it’s not.
4:27 It’s actually something called an entheogen, or things that are actually going to improve your life. And I’ll talk a little bit more, a little bit later, about that. We also, as much as I dislike the fact that this, this is an illegal thing to do in the UK, I do respect the laws in the country I live in. We both do, so we are going to be traveling somewhere else to do this. And we also don’t necessarily recommend you do this yourself without doing some research.
4:47 But before we get into that, I was wondering, Alex, could you tell us a little bit of a little bit more about DMT and the relationship that DMT in ayahuasca have? Sure. I mean, the, the foot, the reason why I started to look into the actual extract of DMT was I was trying to look for similarities between the ayahuasca experience and DMT, and not only did I find it, I came into the exact same states of mind, but I actually continued on with an unresolved ayahuasca experience that I had in the jungle about a few months prior.
5:19 Okay? So was it, you basically had an ayahuasca experience three months later? You smoked DMT, and you went into that ayahuasca experience. Yeah. You know, I did go through this ayahuasca experience, and I talked about it when I was on London Real once.
5:37 But there was this instance with the ayahuasca where I’m surrounded by these kind of bum shamanic entities, some, some sort. This is all within my, n around This is not actually in the external reality. But in this vision with the ayahuasca, these shamanic ladies that kind of dip in this cup into me. And what they’re doing is they’re observe in this essence of me that’s made up of all my past experiences, and it’s kind of this sum total of, kind of, who I am, and within this, they were just kind of observing it, but during one kind of, a, dip into this essence they kind of noticed that there was this kind of darkness within it, and we never really got any kind of conclusion about what that was, but it certainly affected my own in a world, and When I went through the DMT experience with the smoked extract.
6:23 It was kind of a continuation of that same experience. I was surrounded by the same entities, and they were saying you know, really gotta try and figure out what this is, in new, and so we’re gonna trying to go in, to really find out what this kind of darkness was to me, and it had certain things to do with a kind of self-doubt, man, self-doubt mentalities, which can often lead to kind of a sort of self-hatred, and so we’re trying to pull that out, because we do all have these kind of inner dimensions to us, and demons. Yeah, you know, when people encounter demons, they are visual manifestations of negative emotions they hold within themselves, because we all hold kind of certain emotions within us, and when we kind of keep hold of those negative emotions, they’re going to run riot and through the ayahuasca you get this kind of visual representation of Those are, I think, well, a lot of the public who isn’t informed or educated about psychedelics.
7:17 They hear a word like magic mushrooms, and they hear the visions people have, and they tend to associate it with a very recreational type experience. And maybe it is for some people, but for me, I’m at my one-year anniversary since I first took ayahuasca, which I was terrified to do. I was really not comfortable with confronting my demons, but it is affected my character. I’ve done three ceremonies. It was March, August and December.
7:40 But it’s affected my character in such a positive way, because I think I confronted these demons that I was holding inside, and that I was, often times when I’d feel pain, I think I would, you know, drink too much to medicate yourself, a lot of people do this. I, distract yourself from what the real problem is inside, and yeah I mean, there’s a lot of substances and things like alcohol, or a way to sort of get you away from yourself. But ayahuasca is a substance that makes you face things about yourself.
8:06 I think it’s the main difference, right? It’s like, yeah, They said that certain drugs help you tune out. Ayahuasca makes you tune in maybe to a way that you’re just not ready for, ’cause you find it to be very overwhelming for people. Yeah, as I said, it’s like putting a mirror up to your soul, and you get to see how you’ve been treating the rest of the world, and usually it’s not good news. Yeah, that’s the way I kind of describe it, but for me it’s, it’s made it a big development in my life.
8:26 I mean, I was 40, 40, 40 years old before I ever moved in with, you know, another woman or became like more of a family person. And I attribute it all to ayahuasca. My better half will say it was her. But I have to say that ayahuasca is a pivotal experience in my life, particularly the second one. And I think it makes me more calm today.
8:47 It makes me more loving of others. It makes me more accepting of things that I can’t control, and so it’s, it’s very powerful stuff. Sharona It’s been very encouraging for me, ’cause I’m being on my travels for the past eight or so months and I’m getting a lot of contact with people who are working with this medicine, and just seeing the kind of transformations people are going through. You know, become more compassionate people, and you know, there is this whole emmalin element as well with psychedelics?
9:15 That is used in kind of post-traumatic stress disorders, and yes, no, I’ve had people contact me saying they were able to deal with certain traumatic childhood experiences and all this, and You know, and it is an interesting thing to, when you consider. This is a banned substance I think it’s kind of that in America. It’s scheduled. Wasnae Jewish, the definition of is well. One of the conditions of making it scheduled one is it has to have no therapeutic use whatsoever, and I think, as we’ve seen through testimonials of other people and with a lot of scientific researchers coming out now.
9:45 It’s that, that’s not the case, and it seems the most ridiculous thing to hear me to say. Of course yeah. Because ninety-nine, ninety-eight percent of the people I’ve ever met who we’ve had, you know, sillas Ivanore, ayahuasca experiences, I think they’re better people because of it, you know, and then they act maybe a hundred percent, you know. And maybe this is a throwback from the banning of LSD in 1966 in the States, when maybe it was just a backlash of fear that kept out of the public eye for research for 30 or 40 years, but as we’ve seen now with Dr. Carhart-Harris, and if you haven’t seen that, so please watch it, because he’s doing real clinical research where he is actually showing that these substances can help in depression, and can help in a lot of repetitive behavior patterns, like I’m sure everyone listening, this, it felt himself in a cycle.
10:30 They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same action expecting two different results. Yet we’ve all done it, and in Dr. Carhart-Harris, who is a researcher? He’s not a, he’s not a user of these substances. He has said it’s a definite way to break a cycle of behavior. Yeah, it’s really great to see kinda, he does a lot of scientific studies on actually what happens in the brain when you go through.
10:50 I think it’s a lot of his research with the psilocybin mushroom, but again these things have a big overlap and I like the way he described it when he said, in the brain there are these certain hubs of information, and they collect information from various different parts of the brain into one cohesive whole, and what he said is the psilocybin kind of lowered the activity of these hubs, and he explained it as, as if a conductor left the room in an orchestra. So now you’re kind of dealing with a kind of unfiltered information. And he says this is the way.
11:26 How people find it very freeing and liberating, and also how people have this disillusion of ego. Which is sort of how they be conditioned to think about the world, is kind of getting rid of that baggage? I mean, conditioning that you’ve been brought up with, and kind of being a bit more experimental with the information that’s in front of you. It’s like almost everything that goes through your mind is processed. How that relates to my ego, if you see something It’s like, okay, does that make me feel good?
11:50 Does that make me feel bad? Does that validate my personality? Does it not? So I think what, with some of these substances, Carhart-Harris is talking about it? removes that, and then you can, like you said, process the raw information for what it is.
12:01 Yeah, and I guess that’s also why people see themselves for how other people might see them as well. They step outside, if they’re. I’ve often said it took me out of how I thought about the world, and actually how it was instead. I was just kind of my condition, and acted as a kind of filter for life, and to take that filter away and kind of see things from a different perspective. You know, it’s something that Simon Powell talked about with the psilocybin solution, and something Dr. Carhart-Harris talked about, where maybe someday there will be these clinics, you know, they may be these, like, like you would go to a spa for the weekend, rejuvenation center Yeah, where you would check in for the weekend?
12:35 You would see a doctor. They would prescribe a certain amount of psilocybin, or a certain amount of dimethyltryptamine. You go into a comfortable room with comfortable music, with maybe a nurse to watch over you, and for the next eight hours you would explore parts of your brain, and maybe confront some demons. And then you could come back on Monday, and as opposed to having a massage, you might have that kind of, so I’m thankful, massage. That’s peripheral.
12:57 I just, for me, it just seems like it’s a no-brainer that these things would be a wonderful way for people to practice this in a safe way, a controlled way, that would better society in a huge way. But I don’t know, am I being a little idealistic? No, I think that essentially is the conclusion a lot of people come to, you know, when they see the power of the therapeutic use of this. They would naturally think that there should be some kind of centers that people can go to to, sort of, you know, have these inner journeys.
13:21 And also for me, a lot of the psychedelic experiences are about connection to nature. So I think it’s very important to have that aspect as well, and I do sometimes think when you’re dealing with the extracted and synthesized forms of DMT and psilocybin as well, they kind of lose that important connection to nature. You know, there’s something to be said about having the intention of, you know, going for the process of brewing the ayahuasca raw, in the sensors to the psilocybin.
13:44 You know, trekking through nature and getting your hands on the actual form of it. You need the mushrikun. You know, understand in its origin. It’s a kind of embodiment of kind of nature. It’s a, yes So for people who don’t know, ayahuasca is made from two different plants in the Amazon, and they’re boiled down over days.
14:05 Is that right? I mean, you can do it in a day. I’ve been to places where they do over four days. And it’s just a level of concentration they want to get into the brew, and some of the places you can go, you can make it yourself? Obviously, you’re on a diet for usually ten days, a fairly strict diet, and there’s a whole ceremony.
14:18 There’s a shaman. It’s something that’s very respected. I think it’s a pivotal part of the experience to prepare your mind for what you’re going to do. Now we should talk about how DMT is not that, you know. Alex, and I have not done any diet for this.
14:36 There will be no ceremony that I’m aware of, and we will be smoking this extracted form of the DMT. And so what does that mean in your opinion as far as perceptions of it? And what is the reality going to be, as in, comparing to an ayahuasca, sir? I, I do think a large part of the ritual practices with ayahuasca, the way you have a certain diet, you’re prepared to do certain ceremonial actions, and years taken at nighttime. I think it is, in a sense, a way of mentally preparing you.
15:04 The way you actively do it in the physical sense is a way of mentally preparing you as well. So I think as long as you have that mental preparation beforehand, you’re kind of, that’s kind of one step towards, go improve the experience. That’s for the ayahuasca experience. Now, with the DMT, we won’t have that. So how will that alter the experience in your own opinion?
15:30 What will, if you had to try to describe to someone what this will be like? What will this DMT experience be like to you? Okay? Well? I mean, firstly, just the actual experience itself.
15:38 It’s only in a 15 or so minutes, right? Incredibly short. It’s been called the businessmen’s high in Amsterdam, because apparently you can take a lunch break smoke DMT, go to where you’re going to go, and be back and fairly sober within 15, 20, 30 minutes, as I correct? Yeah, okay. That’s all right.
15:56 You know, it is, it is all about set and setting, and I think that’s what a lot of the ritual aspects of the ayahuasca is about. It is that kind of putting a very safe setting where you feel very secure, and if you can provide that, in, by, arrow means, by with the DMT experience, if you’re in a safe, comfortable environment, then you know there’s no reason why I can go through an equally positive experience with it. Now I mean, for us, we’ve talked about ayahuasca on London Real for a year now.
16:21 I’ve had a lot of people ask me about DMT. We’ve had some in Palawan to talk about, so Saavn. We had Carhart-Harris. For me, this seemed like a bit of an elephant in the room. We’ve never addressed DMT.
16:32 We’ve never talked to mt. We’ve never consumed DMT. So I’m glad that we’re going to address this, but it does have a bit. When you tell someone you’re going to smoke something that was it extracted that’s, I think, it’s a white powder. It has a lot more connotation, people.
16:44 Yeah, I think people view it as a narcotic. It’s a Schedule 1 drug. So they’re like Oh, you’re going to do that drug. And so I would like to implore people that this is a way of potentially finding, you know, finding out more about yourself. The world you live in, maybe finding peace, and that’s what I think, for me, the psychedelic experience is, is there value, right?
17:05 And when people describe the DMT versus the ayahuasca, people describe the DMT as going to see new worlds and being revealed things that they might not even understand, whereas the ayahuasca usually is a three- or four-hour journey, and from what I understand, for me and other people, you’re being taught very time-specific lessons about your life, the way you treat people, that kind of thing. I don’t necessarily expect those type of lessons in the DMT experience. But yeah, I mean, again, maybe, maybe, so because the ayahuasca is, you know, it’s a four- to six-hour journey, then in the, in the terms of working through various elements of yourself, it’s more better suited to work with the ayahuasca, because that longer length of time allows you to sort of integrate these lessons and really work through them.
17:50 Whereas the DMT is so short that I think you know, going through those sort of things is going to be a slightly different experiment, right? Now, when Nick and I were looking for ayahuasca shamans, we were approached by some people that said, we have some DMT you can smoke, and we were very hesitant because we wanted to go through the ritual, and we wanted to approach the ayahuasca experience first, and maybe we were culturally biased as well to smoke this drug with this pipe or whatever. That we didn’t want to do that.
18:18 We wanted to go for a more spiritual experience. Can you, can you talk a bit about about that as far as Do you believe people should do the ayahuasca before the DMT? You know, I’m not in a position to say what they can and can’t do. Their own consciousness, of course, but you know, I would definitely recommend that. Go through the ayahuasca experience first.
18:39 I know a lot of people don’t have access to that. Indian often requires a trip to the drawing on whether this but the DMT, you know, the whole thing we’re tapping into with both the ayahuasca and the DMT is just so extraordinary and just out of this world. There can be very overwhelming. And I think if you’re introduced to that in this kind of 50-minute DMT experience, the kind of tendency is to sort of give into astonishment, and I know from one of my experiences with that, I was so astonished by what I was going through, I kind of opened my eyes and just completely snapped out of the experience.
19:12 So I think you do need that ground in these longer sessions with ayahuasca, to sort of really get a feel for what you’re tapping into, so that when you do go through with the DMT, you kind of have a good handle on things. You immediately know what you’re tapping into, and you can sort of just Morgue over the flow rather than be too overwhelmed with it. It’s interesting, because there’s many parts of a psychedelic experience. A lot of it are these visuals you see, which can be amazing, and you hear people describing on these YouTube videos, and you see, you know, Jimi Hendrix album covers that look like the experience itself.
19:44 But there’s this whole secondary and tertiary change going on inside your subconscious, which I think some people forget about. This happens here a lot of times. Most of the time you don’t even know it’s happening, and then it’s only months later, weeks later, you find that you’re not yelling at the guy in traffic, and you’re not, you know, stressed out all the time, or you’re not, you know, drinking six pints at night. And so sometimes these changes happen, but often times people don’t associate this with a psychedelic experience.
20:08 They associate, you know, I saw discos, you are out Yeah, I saw an alien land on my head, and the kind of thing, and I don’t think I’m not to diminish those experiences. Those are very important, but There, there’s a lot going on here. Yeah, and I think people can get a little too caught up in those kind of extravagant visions, but you know, I have only heard people when they refer to things like this. But when I talk to people in person, I never really have them talking about these as really far-out ideas.
20:37 It is much more ground and kind of within themselves. Yeah. So, I, I don’t know. I think that kind of idea of these really extravagant levels is, I don’t know. Some cultural.
20:43 Yeah, it might just be as us as humans, we, we tend to identify the pop culture, the wows. You know, the, the cool-sounding visuals first, then our mind And maybe, and that’s another thing this comes to, is language. And it’s something that we talk about a lot. Terence McKenna talks about it. It’s like language is something we use to try to communicate with each other, to talk about the real world there, and I kind of develop, like, to sort of keep us away from dangers when we had a longer, in our evolution, you know, watch out for that saber-toothed tiger, and it kind of grew out as a way to sort of explain the outside world, right?
21:21 But it gotta get sound a bit mixed up. Me, try and apply there that same tool, which language is, to sort of describe these more abstract ideas, you know, tapped into certain emotions and talking about these inner realms that people experience with ayahuasca. Yeah, I find that after my ayahuasca experiences, I don’t want to talk It’s almost like I, I’m cheapening the, of what happened, to try to describe it to someone, and I always fail. So immediately after, a few hours after, I just try to shut up, and then later I can write about it.
21:53 But even then it’s, it’s hard. Right? Because it’s a lot of, a lot of it’s a feeling. The things that you’ve never had very is very much tapped into emotion, yesterday. And I know that, you know, I’ve gone from my own work of trying to attain similar states of awareness through meditation and things.
22:06 I don’t know, for the long as the time, I turned it into a kind of mental activity and had no luck with that, but when I got more in touch with my emotions, and how I felt in ceremony, then I felt like I was very much on the borders of similar states of awareness that you get through psychedelics. So you were just becoming more emotionally open to the experiences? I think the psychedelic experience at its core is an emotional experience, and kind of, when you focus on kind of the mental activities of it, kind of gets away from what it is.
22:35 I think I just want to say something else on a personal note. And it’s something I thought about. I mean, you know, we’ve, we’ve shot 86 episodes of London Real. We’ve had a lot of people on, a lot of very interesting guests. We talked about ayahuasca, psychedelics.
22:52 We talked about, you know, all sorts of different things, and confronted something like this head-on is something. I talked to Alex about it, and we both agreed that going away for an ayahuasca ceremony, the connotations to the public, the Monkey Clan, are a little bit more, okay? Because you’re going away to this ritual, you with a shaman, and met as a post going to smoke this extract I know that a lot of people are going to have a knee-jerk reaction to this, and say: Brian, what are you doing smoking this stuff?
23:21 You know it’s a Class One drug. It’s crap, basically, and I’m more and more aware of this, especially now as I’ve told you before, Alex. I’ve gotta, I gotta guess. I’ve got a family now, and I It’s like now I have to think about what, you know, the school says or other kids’ parents say and if they see this, it’s very likely for them to say, oh Brian, is this type of guy? put him in this, this type of hole.
23:45 So it’s something that it actually makes me nervous and scared, and it also makes me angry. Because it seems like this is something that’s done me so much benefit as far as the psychedelic category as a person. I wouldn’t be with this family if it wasn’t for, in my opinion, these substances, these medicines. And so to categorize me as potentially a bad parent because I’m doing it, or talking about it, does make me angry. And so it’s one of the reasons I’m doing this episode, because I feel that, to, like, run away from that I don’t know that oppression, and maybe it’s only in my mind, but I think I need to run towards it and just confront it, whatever happens happens.
24:23 Sure. What, when you discover something has huge beneficial effects, the natural thing is to, you want to share. Yeah, and then you do face that cultural wall of people’s perceptions about these things. But, you know, like you said with the ayahuasca, I think a lot of people, they may not understand the psychedelic aspect to it, but I think on some levels they understand this level, where you talk about this connection to nature being in the jungle. If you’re in the jungle, of these experiences, so when you talk about just solely the psychedelic experience with the dean T-that, that’s when it gets a bit more difficult.
24:55 Yeah, there’s more of judgment. Yeah, it’s more judgment there seems by people, and yeah, they equate it. You know, like with ya, I think they equated with more of a narcotic, and it didn’t, and it’s something we have to deal with this perception. I mean, we’re all part of the Monkey Clan. The Morreplan can lock us up in the, you know, and in the prison, they can take away all rights, that can call us criminals.
25:14 They can, you know, shut, shut our broadcast down. So it’s like you need to be aware of it, but at the same time, I don’t think it can change the way you do things in your life. And you know, we’ve had guests talk. We had Dorian Yates, you know, six-time Mr. Olympia, who’s talked about smoking DMT and how it was very profound, and one of the things I noticed about Dorian, I was like, well, when did you smoke it last? He was like, six months ago.
25:35 I was like, do you have any plans smoking again? He’s like, I don’t have plans to, but I might, and it’s something Terence McKenna talks about. He talks about large doses infrequently to learn things, and Simon Powell talked about that as well, and that makes me more comfortable when I’m about to go smoke dimethyltryptamine today, knowing that it’s not an addictive substance, and it’s something that people don’t run back to harass a difficult experience.
25:57 Yeah. And I mean, ayahuasca is something that, on a good year, I forced myself about that, but I make myself go once every three or four months, three times last year. And that’s a conscious effort of going back to the mountain, knowing it’s going to be a long night, but I know what makes me a better person. And it’s just interesting, and makes me feel better about DMT. It’s not something you hear people.
26:12 I’m going to do DMT this weekend, I can’t wait. Yeah, it sounds like something you do Infrequently, and then you process that information, and there’s a lot of information to process with that. Yeah, I know what those are. Elements of Asthma Kennedy talked about, when I know he talked to a lot of people and they’re talking about that DMT experience, and how it’s just the most life-changing experience for them, and they said, well, when did you take this?
26:38 Sounds like 10 years ago? I’m not touched. It, since it’s right there you know, the experience stays with you, and there’s a lot of process with it, and you know, you can get enough from it, then you know you don’t need to go into these things again and again. rice. It’s not like that.
26:53 Yeah, that’s interesting for me, because I had three ayahuasca ceremonies last year and I don’t have any planned for this year, and part of me thinks, you know, maybe I’m just being not proactive enough, and I’m just running away, but also I think I, ’cause there, I think it calls you when it’s time, and I think that it’s always there. And you don’t need to be there every, every three months. Yeah, it’s very important to integrate these lessons into this reality, and I guess some people, maybe, get a little too caught up in that unusual experience.
27:21 And I think that’s maybe getting away from things, and I could understand that. I mean, won’t you drink ayahuasca You do get all this information and knowledge, and part of you does want to go back and, and get more of that knowledge. And you know, after even a week or two after your ayahuasca ceremony, you can be in kind of a different world, and I could see how people can get used to that. But as sun palace, that is important to do something with that.
27:39 It for me. Oh yeah, I believe so. Are you scared? I think everyone’s scared when they go to through experience. Everyone’s hands shake going into it.
27:54 But other than that, you know, I’ve gone through my own ayahuasca ceremony. I know, to an extent, what I’m going to encounter, and I’ve already flushed out or faced all the kind of bad things about myself. I could possibly go through, how many ceremonies, if you’ve been to about forty? Forty night, okay, 40. That’s more than that’s a lot.
28:11 Yeah, I’m, I’m a little nervous. but I’m still going to do it, and assuming everything goes well with the people we meet, and, yeah, I really don’t know what’s going to happen. I’m looking forward to it. I think Yeah, I, I’m, I can. Nervous isn’t the right word.
28:30 But I’m, as a sense of foreboding to it, because you just know it’s going to be a huge undertaking. Yeah, huge experience. It’s something you can’t really do, have harder, that you kind of jump in and kind of jump all the way in. So that is our plan to do that. We are going to leave right now for the airport.
28:47 We should be back in about eight hours. It might be late, but we definitely want to get back and tell you our experiences, even if it’s late at night, because we wanted to do this in one day, and so you can see a before and after, maybe especially for me, because I’ve never touched this stuff before in my life, and There it is. I do want to say the old disclaimer: kids, don’t try this at home. We are not suggesting or that you do touch this stuff. I would definitely recommend an ayahuasca experience first, but then again, it’s your own consciousness, and that’s the beauty of it.
29:18 You should have sovereignty over your own body to do whatever you want, so more power to anyone who wants to do one thing or the other. I would read up on this. It took me 18 months before I, from my ayahuasca hearing the word the first time till I did my ceremonies, part of the same for me. And I was doing research in the back of my mind the whole time, listening, deciding, deciding So this was something, like, this, you should take time. I don’t think it’s ever something to force on someone.
29:43 I don’t think anyone that does psychedelics forces it on anyone, but it’s something I think we need to talk about. So that’s my disclaimer. Was that good? No swearing. That was good, like I said once again, we are, we are respecting the laws of the UK, and since we live here, and we’re going to go somewhere else.
29:53 And I, don’t know, am I missing anything? Anything else to say? I think that’s good news. How very well with that. Yeah and the only thing I want to say is that anyone who is judging me is potentially a bad person or a bad parent or anything, just please listen to the whole podcast, listen to a few others.
30:16 You know, what we are trying to do is try to find some truth here, and obviously try to understand each other a little bit better, and become better, Kamar, more productive human beings. So hopefully this is one of those processes, and I don’t know what’s going to happen to Alex. We might have an experience. We might have nothing, but we’ll come back and tell you. Yeah, all right, should we get a taxi?
30:36 Let’s do it. All right, man. We will see you guys later today. Goodbye. I need, oh, oh yeah, Mike, make yourself up.
32:36 Mm-hmm. That’s quite a day, Mr. Ward. Okay. You miked up there. That’s like, I forget, just there.
33:01 Yeah, that should be fine. Yeah, yeah, that’s good Okay, good. Yeah, I’m good. Okay. Look at camera, just a bit.
33:10 We will call you back further earlier Maybe, how’s that? Good, yeah? Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, okay. We are back.
33:26 Mm-hmm. We are back. Yeah, that was quite a long day. I’m very tired after this. I want to go to sleep.
33:34 Yeah, I’ve got a bit of a dose of caffeine to help us get it. Yeah. It will, coffee on the way in. Alex and I’ve just returned from our trip where we, we smoked dimethyltryptamine, and we both had, I guess, quite a profound experience each. Oh, and could say that.
33:47 Without further ado, I was wondering if you could tell everyone what happened to you, what you saw, what you felt? I’ll leave it to you. Okay, jumping right into it. Yeah. So, yeah, usually when I go straight into it, there’s this instance that comes up, and it came again during this experience and when I’m smoking this and about to break through, I always have this very odd sensation of some kind of outside observation of me.
34:25 I don’t know. What is it, is it a form of their consciousness, part of a part of myself? that’s kind of looking back at me, but it’s a very strong sensation, and someone’s watching you. Yeah, I don’t want to put in quite those paranoid times, but it definitely feels to be some kind of external energy that’s kind of observing you through this, in a sense. And it’s always a very familiar sensation.
34:45 I go through, and I also went through the signature process of having this noise that picks up in frequency and gets louder and louder as this effect begins to take effect, and the myth of that was, this is the noise the pineal gland makes upon activation, right? The pineal gland, the third eye. Which is that? Yeah? This is, of course, just myth, but it’s an interesting idea to think about.
35:11 So I went into this and just lay back and closed my eyes, and for the first few seconds I felt like it wasn’t really taken effect. I felt like I could see visions behind closed eyes, but it was, if someone had turned off the lights. And so I’m seeing these visions, which is this kind of organic plant life mass of some sort, and I remember as I’m sort of breathing in each time. I take a breath, these plant-like organisms are just filling up with light more and more, and I’ve seen these kind of plant-like organisms quite a bit before, and it’s usually a representation of my physical body, and usually when I go for experiences where the ayahuasca is kind of working through me and kind of evaluating the kind of how healthy I am, healthy I am in my body, then it’s always represented with these same kind of organisms.
36:01 Okay, very unusual, and so when I breathe in, these plant-like organisms are acting as a kind of curtain or a veil, and When I reach the peak, it’s as though this curtain. It’s just sort of whipped away, and I’m very much in my normal state of consciousness. I don’t think it affects you kind of mentally at all. You’re very much how you are, kind of, before you went in. It’s only the surroundings at that point.
36:27 Suddenly I swapped out with an entirely different surroundings, okay? So you are a kind of, you, your oyster, you in a completely different matrix. That’s kind of the way I felt as well, like I was brought into this, all video game, of two dimensional space, where, yeah, I wasn’t in control anymore, and I was in someone else’s playing field, as what I felt And I think that’s why it’s so intimidating as well. It doesn’t affect you in any kind of emotional basis.
36:52 So you’re there, how y’all normal sense of being normally is, but Completely different surroundings, right? So it’s likely taking you literally out of your comfort little. Yeah, literal, exactly like that. yeah, and so I mean, what I tapped into with the DMT and us again, this exact same round that I keep tapping into, time after time, with our experiences with the I oscar, and I felt myself. I’ve had a lot of other people report to me as well, when they go to this themselves, there’s a huge sense of familiarity to this place that you tap into.
37:25 It feels like you’re tapping into the very core of yourself, and their type of, an aesthetic design of this place was a kind of multicolored cathedral, some sort of kind of a castle, like, and I remember kind of being in the presence of some other being. He was kind of leading me through this space so it’s kind of a welcoming, welcoming me back, wall maze, and kind of what I felt with this space. What I feel like I’ve tapped into with this, and I’ve gone through many experiences with the ayahuasca.
38:08 Is that, it, you’re tapping into a kind of part of a more soulful part of yourself. I’ve gone through experiences with the ayahuasca, and it feels like The experience of life on Earth is that people have this? Multi-dimensional existence, I call it. It’s just ideas. I’m playing it right now, but You get this huge sense that you are present beyond this, this veil that is kind of lifted, temporarily, with the psychedelic and it’s almost as if you’re a soul having the experience of a physical body.
38:42 I know many other people have had that same type of feeling with it, and there’s some soul there. There’s something beyond the physical. Yeah, there is this sensation that the consciousness you have is something more than just the body, okay? And I could feel that I could feel this very strong presence of this kind of very force of life, the very force of existence that was living through me, and it was this that was representing these plant-like organisms.
39:17 That when it doesn’t have this force of life, this force of consciousness, there is no kind of life to it, and when I took in the breath, it kind of just blurred, full of light. And did this take you back to this space that you go to when you drink ayahuasca? Yeah, pretty much the exact same place. Okay, I think with the DMT it kind of takes you to the very more pure experience, in a sense, because I know the ayahuasca has a lot to do with the shaman Colin on these fairs.
39:47 We call them in organic entities, of sort writers. I mean, they refer to as spirits, so shamans in the room. They’re chanting. They’re, they’re channeling these other spirits? yeah, typically when you’re, I was, which could be a manifestation of a part of themselves that they give to you to sort of help you heal certain positive, our own, in a space, or if they’re external.
40:06 This is kind of speculation. With DMT, it’s just three guys in a room, and with the DMT you don’t deal with those external entities I felt, and you just get two more a pure form of the experience, I think. Okay, I felt that the journey was so intense I mean, it started off for me, and I went right back to these, as dekhi, as techy and geometrics and I was right back to where it was, almost like your mother ayahuasca swirled. No longer your world, where Brian’s world is, he’s always in control of his world, and now you’re on this playing field where you’re not in control, and you’re in her world.
40:48 And then it was just really intense, and That’s, and I felt a real maternal energy, funny enough, which is much like Mother Ayahuasca. Yeah, I kind of had a maternal spirit that was actually trying to communicate something with me, but it was like the mute button was on. Yeah, so she was almost trying to, even yelling at me at some point, and a few times she, she kind of hit me or hit the camera that was filming her, and it shuddered, and she was trying to tell me something, and then it would flash.
41:14 Why I thought she was holding a baby. And then it was back to her, and there was all of this aggravated energy happening all at once, and then for me it kind of tapered down It was almost like there wasn’t enough time to learn a lesson, you know. I difficult that sensation as well I felt like, just as I was getting very much into it you can feel it, just second off, the second just sort of slipping away. Hi, it’s Brian Rose. I’m back.
41:38 It’s 24 hours after Alex and I went away to smoke the dimethyltryptamine, and I was just thinking about our, our post-smoke episode yesterday. And I think I might not have described my experience to you, and everything that happens. so I figured I’d just put this supplemental in, 24 hours later, and give you a few more details, because I think what people really liked about Nick and I, when I, when we did the ayahuasca experience, is that we got into the specifics of what happened, just so people could understand the ceremony a bit more, and I know we missed that yesterday.
42:12 I think Alex and I were still a little bit of, in a little bit of a kind of, the days in hays, your back to about 90 percent after you smoke the, IMF field trip to, mean, and and So I think it may be good for me to tell you what happened to me. obviously we, we left the country and went to a place where we, we found that the mTA we had, some supplied to us. And you basically, you heat it up. It’s a powder, and you smoke it, and actually I was going to go first.
42:44 You know, because I guess, because it’s my show. And I had never done it before, but I had a very hard time ingesting the right amount, and very little happened to me. So it was almost frustrating at that point, but then Alex went next, and for his first, I think four breaths of the, the, the dimethyltryptamine vapor I thought he was having a similar non-effect, and I was about to say, didn’t work for you either. We thought we had a bum batch, and it was just going to be a big waste of time, whole episode.
43:15 But then Alex laid back on the sofa, and he said it was, one, a very powerful experience for him. So I waited an hour, which is, I think, the amount of time you need for your brain to kind of metabolize anything that might be in there, and I went again for a fairly large dose. I kind of wanted to break through, as they say, what dimethyltryptamine I think, if you get a mild dose, you might just see some visions and things, but I wanted to really break through into that next level, and I made sure I did.
43:43 I think I was about 100 milligrams. That was the dose that we, that we heated up. I think you lose some of that in the process, and I took four breaths in. On my fourth breath, I was almost losing reality, but thankfully Alex was there and said, Brian, take the fourth one, which was good. And then I leaned back, and I was just immediately ave elevated to, like, this as techy in a geometric plane, and it reminded me very much, so of the eye of the geometric shapes I see when I’m in ayahuasca, after I drink the ayahuasca, except this plane was really intense, with, like, a lot of not anger, but a lot of, I guess, just intensity, and I just felt that I was in someone else’s playing field that I wasn’t in charge, and, and that’s always a strange feeling for me, since I’m such a control freak in my environment.
44:34 I like to choose who I associate with and the situations I put myself into. I like to push myself, but I also like to then come back home. So I was elevated to this plane that reminded me a lot of the ayahuasca plane, but there was no audio, because there was no shaman singing, and it was just quiet in the room, and for some reason, I, I saw this, what seemed to be like a mother entity. But she was almost pixelated, so I couldn’t see her face, and she seemed to be urgently trying to yell something to me, or something, and she seemed to be kind of running around and fretting, and at some point I thought I saw her holding a baby, or a baby in her womb, or something, a few times She tapped the camera, as if I would tap this camera right now to my vision, and it went white, and I was just like, she was almost like yelling at you, but the volume was completely muted.
45:21 I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience? Maybe someone yelling at you, and you had, you know, earphones on or something, and I was just like, oh, trying just to be with the experience, but also I was very happy to know that I would not be there forever, because it was pretty intense and out of control, and I didn’t feel emotions like I would feel in ayahuasca, where it’s a lot of, you know, I feel the pain of other people and their suffering, and the fact that I’m not loving them enough, that kind of thing. this was more just felt like a real intensity, and the vibe, and she was trying to tell me something.
45:56 Then there was just arjun singh, it was a real, like, a much more intense plane that I get with ayahuasca, ayahuasca. There’s those visions, and there was those emotions, but I didn’t feel like ayahuasca feels like more of a storyline, and the DMT was more of a here, going to take you right to the hyperspace, and then you’re going to come back down. And I knew I was going to come back, and I was feeling, and is the way it was slowly dissipating. I’m guessing after a minute, one or minute two, I thought, oh, there’s a lesson here.
46:23 She’s trying to teach me something about maternalism, motherhood. My future is a father, something, and so I sat back and was like, oh let me learn the lesson, like I do sometimes on ayahuasca, and oftentimes there’s a lesson, and oftentimes there isn’t, and I think that’s just our own ego projecting, as if the universe is telling us something for us. So I think that’s just your ego getting in the way. So then I kind of dissipated that, and just, just tried to be with the vision, but I think it was very helpful that I had felt like I’d been in that space before with ayahuasca, because if not, I could have panicked, and then, like, what is all this crazy new information?
47:04 But I think I was able just to kind of absorb it, and let it in, and then it just kind of slowly calm down. The visuals went away, and after about five minutes I was pretty much back. I, I’m the first thing I said to Alex was that, worked, you know, in, and then he knew, I think he knew by looking at me that I had been there, and then I was, I think I said Jesus a few times. It’s just like, it’s such a reminder when you go into that level of consciousness, even when you do ayahuasca.
47:34 And you might have done it 40 times, as Alex had said. But you, you still forget what it’s like when you go into her own, or go into this realm where you’re pushing your consciousness, and it’s so interesting, because you’re not in control. You can’t take a break. You can’t run away. You just have to deal with it, and it’s funny how your consciousness almost fights with itself.
47:55 You know, it’s like, it’s like some type of hybrid consciousness you have. Well, you’re not in control and you’re in control, and your ego is trying to process it. But then it can’t process it, and it’s this weird thing where your brain’s trying to figure out what’s going on, a lot. Like, what? Robin Carhart-Harris said, when he sat in this seat, about it, it’s like an orchestra without the conductor.
48:12 So it’s like your main brain hub can’t process this information in order to make it sound like a beautiful song, so all these instruments are coming in, and it doesn’t know what to do with them, and that can be a beautiful confusion, because it can kind of show where you’re at, as far as a conscious level. As Terence McKenna once said, I don’t know who discovered water, but it definitely wasn’t a fish. And I think his point is that when we’re in our own consciousness, we don’t know we’re in it, because we’re swimming around in this water all the time.
48:42 And when we perturb it, like we do with psychedelics, then we get to see the water that we’re in is actually water, and so we get to see that what we’re in, what we think is just normal life, is this consciousness. And it’s just nice to perturb it every now and then, because I think it gives you an appreciation of your own consciousness. Allows you to observe yourself outside of your normal day of, I got to get my coffee, I gotta get the kids to school.
49:11 He’s trying to screw me at work. I got to get more money to get paid. I gotta get more money to buy that thing that I don’t need, and I think it’s nice sometimes to shock your consciousness and to realize that all of our manifestations in our head are just a construct of our own, of our own brain. So That’s what’s nice about a psychedelic experience. It is, it, by definition, will lower your ego, because you get to see the world for what it is, which is not your projection of the world, but it is just what it is.
49:42 So I just thought I would give you that explanation. I didn’t feel like I saw it got in touch with my soul or met aliens for me. It’s just a show. I don’t feel like I’m going to another of consciousness, or seen other beings. Alex has a different feeling.
49:55 He feels like he, he does get in touch with some type of soul that he has beneath it. But, you know, very different people. And that’s the thing about psychedelics, and what I find beautiful about the psychedelics is there, almost custom-tailored to the person taking them. You know, ayahuasca for whoever drinks it will usually confront the issues that concern them the most, and, as my shaman says, for me it’s always relationships. And that’s what comes up with me.
50:22 You know, with Alex, it comes up with nature. He has a real feeling with how man coexists with nature, and what they were ruining nature. But for me, a lot of my hangups tend to be how I interact with other people, whether I trust them, whether I love them, or all this stuff. So my shaman has been there for all three of my ayahuasca experiences, doesn’t afterwards I’m always talking about my relationships to other people, and she just noted that that’s something very specific to me, and not someone everyone else done Everyone else feels, so there you go.
50:50 I’m 24 hours later. I, I feel good. I feel kind of maybe 20 percent of the effects of an ayahuasca ceremony, as, and I feel appreciative for the little things in life for the sunshine today, for the coffee I had, for people, from my girls. I just have a little more feeling and in touch with that. We’re in kind of a very important and beautiful world, as opposed to some days where I can get fed up and frustrated with trying to get the show out, or trying to work on this, or trying to get more people to watch the show and like all this other potential nonsense today.
51:28 I’m just kind of appreciating life, and I do feel that way after an ayahuasca ceremony. I would say this is about 20 percent of that, as, and I’m not full-on like calling old friends, telling them how much I love them. You know, it’s not that there’s nothing wrong with that, or hugging everyone. There’s nothing wrong with that, and that’s a lot of times what will happen after an ayahuasca experience, a lot, like a near-death experience. But today, I just feel to have kind of more of an appreciation for things Yeah, I’d maybe not take everything so seriously, and so for me, it was just kind of a way to kind of take a notch down.
52:01 But by no means did it replace an ayahuasca ceremony, and if anything, it makes me leave more of the power of a proper ayahuasca ceremony, with a diet and with a shaman, with a three- or four-hour journey, where you really go inside your head. You know, the DMT was interesting. I think it’s affected me on a subconscious level to a certain extent, but I really think it’s just, it was more of a blast-off rocket, and then right back down to Earth, and I just, I don’t know if it’s possible to learn a lesson in such a short amount of time.
52:29 I feel like you really need to go through a journey and maybe even a mental preparation, as I mentally prepared for the DMT, but it was mostly just fear that I wouldn’t, you know? Die, or do something stupid, or overdose, which is, but almost impossible with the dimethyltryptamine? So anyways, I will, well, I will turn you back over now to Alex and I talking about the experience. I hope my explanation here has gotten you a little bit of insight into what we actually did, and what were the semantics of it.
53:01 We both smoked once each. We don’t didn’t feel the need to do it again, and I don’t feel the need to do it again. I think my next next entrance back into the psychedelic experience will probably be in ayahuasca ceremony. I’m thinking three or four months from now. So I know I probably should go back in this year and learn a bit more about myself, but I’m not in an extreme rush, so So yeah, that’s me anyways.
53:23 I hope you enjoyed listening. I hope this episode helps you in some way. Yeah. I am, I just want to make sure this show is not a proponent. I’m not telling you to go and try this, this, this, the spirit molecule, dimethyltryptamine.
53:34 I’m not going to call it a drug, because it’s not. And this is no way suggesting that you do this, but it’s just something that you need to be aware of, and something that exists, you know, in nature and in the world. And for me, it took me 18 months before I heard ayahuasca to do ayahuasca. So I implore you to do your own research, do your own learning, into your own mental preparation before you want to do something like this. And if you don’t feel like doing it, don’t do it.
54:04 It’s not for everyone. And I think when, when you need it, you will find it. And it will call to you when you need it, and when you no longer need it, you won’t anymore. So now I turn you back to Alex and myself talking about the aftermath of our experience. I hope you enjoy the show.
54:22 If you do, please share it with your friends, and That’s it. It’s about the journey. I think I told you, you know, on the flight back that I felt like at some point I saw this information, and then I was like, oh, I’m being taught something, like I feel sometimes with ayahuasca. And I’m like, you should sit back and listen to the message being given to you, and the direction you should take with your life. And I sat back, and then I was like, okay.
54:45 You’re just being a douche, because there’s no lesson, and there wasn’t. It was just the, the feelings tapering off, but there wasn’t like after ayahuasca, where I walk away with a few distinct pieces of, you need to do this different, we need to treat this person better, and with this I didn’t get that lesson per se. No, not that I expected it. No. Yeah.
55:08 I think it is something about humans that they expect this lesson through it. And I did, similarly, like in a similar fashion, I found my ego kick in kind of towards the end of the experience, and it’s trying to formulate some kind of idea about what this experience is, what I’ve learned from it. And it felt like that really got in the way, and I just remember kind of getting the impression, not a spoken word, but this impression of just saying, you know, just be with the experience and stop trying to take control of it.
55:28 Yeah, I know. When I spend time with a shaman, and the John Will Don Lucho He says this is a common problem that comes up. So you just have to let go with that. You go, a voice, and just be, be with it. It’s funny, because it doesn’t take your consciousness away completely, and you’re trying to fight.
55:45 Yeah, you’re trying to protect your, your ego, I guess, is a way of looking at it, or your filter of how you want to process its information, while at the same point your consciousness is being pulled away from you and rippled, so it’s just, it’s a strange battle. And I think it is all how you perceive it, as we know with ayahuasca. If you fight the experience, it’s going to be a difficult night and potentially not a very fulfilling night. So yeah, so that was pretty intense.
56:20 Mm-hmm. What do you think you can gain from a DMT experience? You know, it was very brief. It was probably five minutes long or six minutes of the really intense stuff. You know, in the next weeks or months, do you think you’re going to take something away from this, or not?
56:40 Definitely not to the same extent that you would with an ayahuasca experience. But for me it felt like the DMT experience was just a kind of a reaffirmation of what I’ve been through with ayahuasca. So it’s nice to have that reconnection. Yeah, in a sense, and I think that’s probably how it could be utilized. I don’t think the DMT, as a core experience on its own, can be that beneficial, because it is so over so quickly.
57:05 Yeah, and I think you need that longer time to integrate, a lot of, a blessing, and I know we’re gonna, a lot of DMT fanatics are gonna, you know, be like, you guys don’t understand, and I understand what you’re saying, and it can be. Since I had done ayahuasca, it took me to a plane that I was somewhat familiar with, and I was like, okay, we’re back here now. If I hadn’t done that before, it would have been a massive sensory overload. I would have been like, what am I doing in this world, and it might have affected me differently, but I think that there were those lessons.
57:29 It’s almost like I got, you know, a lesson taught over, over three hours. Like, say it was a martial arts lesson, that I learned something, as opposed to someone walking up to me and punching me in the head and saying, that’s a knockout. You know, it was almost like I don’t have enough time to process and learn from this, but I did get a glimpse of something, which I know exists, and I did feel some of those old feelings about the ayahuasca, like, you’re not completely in charge.
57:58 There’s these other people, there’s these other entities. There’s this other message out there, but then it stopped there. Yeah, do you think there was some kind of significance to this maternal lady of sort, that it was a kind of representation of things that I happen in kind of in your life? Yes, yes, I’m surrounded by women, and I’m turning 40 this year, and I’ve never procreated, and as we were talking about earlier, I think ayahuasca has this communal family clan vibe going on when you drink ayahuasca, and even nature, for you, less.
58:28 So for me, in relationship, and, and almost an avatar thing, which I hate, I hate to use that expression, but it’s, it’s a good compare Yeah, no, I totally felt that as well. That’s one of the differences that separates ayahuasca from other psychedelics, that it does seem to focus more on these issues of family, community and friendship. And I think part of my journeys was realizing that it’s not really about the ayahuasca. It’s about more the communities that are forming around this kind of medicine use.
59:00 They’ve been taught these messages of community and kind of working together. It’s, I guess, looking back, it’s kind of similar to how maybe some of these older tribal cultures kind of live their lives. And, you know, there are reasons. I mean, the ancient tribal traditions realized that they need some kind of symbiotic relationship to nature, and in this way they survived for thousands of years. Interesting.
59:23 Where have you seen our modern, dominated cultures that are resentful and countless? So it’s almost like you’re saying ayahuasca breeds a feeling of community, which results in a community being built? Yeah? I think that’s kind of the larger picture of what’s being played out. All right, you’ve seen so many instances.
59:44 You’ve been to New York City to be with the shamanic community there. You’ve been to Peru. You’ve been all over. So you get to see not only the firsthand experience of the ayahuasca, but you could see the communities building, right? Yeah, I mean, that is one of the strongest things I felt about the scene, and there was this concept that’s been playing around a lot, that these are kind of medicine circles.
1:00:06 And that is this movement called the Condor Eagle Prophecy, okay? And the condor is an element that represents these older South American cultures that do have their traditions in medicine use like this. And they’ve kept alive knowledge of these altered states, and more of an alignment with spirit and this reverence for nature. Whereas the eagle represents the kind of North American modern cultures, like our own, where we do sort of descend into this reverence for physical matter.
1:00:35 Okay, we kind of separated from that sense of community, and part of this movement is bringing together all these old scattered tribes who are now coming together and sharing in their different medicine practices. And that’s kind of what you see happening in kind of North America now. Gotcha. It’s a part of this, is kind of to merge the condor and the eagle together, so that we can merge our two cultures on a go together into the future. It sounds like a plan for me.
1:01:02 But I think I might have skipped your maternal question, but so yeah, I think that this whole, for me, I mean, for me, I took ayahuasca the first time a year ago. And I was very non-committal. I, not cohabitated with any of anyone else, and since then I’ve moved in with a girlfriend and a young girl, and I’m becoming this whole family man, and the idea, appropriation is coming up in my mind more than anything, so I don’t think this whole maternal thing is any kind of a surprise.
1:01:30 I mean, it was a surprise when I went into the state. I was like, Jesus, who is this lady yelling at me with this baby? But, but you know, it makes sense that it might be something a bit more symbolic, and, you know, again. It’s not something I’m going to focus on and try to figure out. The next few weeks, I’m probably going to, you know, not think about it, and, you know, if I change as a character, then maybe that will change.
1:01:51 But yeah, I think there’s definitely something going on there when it comes to that, but, you know, the one takeaway from the takeaway from this is, if you’ve heard about DMT, and you know it’s a Class A drug, or a Schedule 1, and you know, we’ve just gone somewhere and smoked it and come back. I mean, I feel ninety, ninety-five percent right now. Oh, yeah, I feel fine. I don’t think there’s any risk in doing it, because you kind of inhale it until you can’t anymore.
1:02:19 So there’s not a real overdose risk, and it might sound like a crazy, like a drug culture thing, but it was just kind of a glimpse into, for me, the concept of consciousness. Mornin, not even into my own brain, but maybe just the concept that we have a consciousness, and all this stuff is just, you know, chemical reactions to what I’m seeing, and we’re all just on a big ride. Really? That’s the other thing that I take away from it. It’s hard to take too much seriously, like building an empire and all this stuff, when you know that you’re literally 13 inhalations away from going to the Aztec-ian board game, where the rules can completely change, and if dying is anything near that, it just shows you.
1:03:00 Almost, I don’t know. Do you think this has any kind of relation to what happens after death, and things, these kind of realms? What’s happening, when, is it, big question. I thought about death. I thought about, okay, well, this is on the way to death, as in this is a reduction of the control of my own consciousness, and my own egoic thoughts going to a plane where I’m not in charge, and I can’t, I can’t get the check so we can go, and then death being something even further, where well, yeah, there’s no more thought, and it’s, it’s quite yeah, it’s quite sobering to know that in death, in my opinion from what I saw today, it does turn off.
1:03:40 You probably saw something different. Mm-hmm. What is just touching on the same thing I keep seeing again and again, and I know many people have different interpretations of kind of the realms you encounter. There’s some ideas which are more of a, a, young interpretation, where you’re tapping into more the collective unconscious of humanity, because their conscious attention in this very moment is just kind of a wafer thin layer on top of this. Actually, a huge amount of stuff going on inside you.
1:04:08 And I do believe, I do believe that a lot of these states are kind of visual manifestations of what’s going on in the unconscious, and I don’t know. I did feel that for the longest time, but there’s just something about a lot of my later experiences that it did feel like I was connecting with some sort of, I hate, you use the word spirit, but that’s really what it feels like, and I’ve also been interested in kind of tapping into these states more without the use of any kind of psychedelic, cuz I do think it is more a window into these states of awareness, but not a natural doorway. I think, I put you into a certain alignment that allows you to be in the state of mind.
1:04:50 But if you’re constantly relying on something else to get you into that, then you never really learn how to walk yourself. Yeah, so you’re saying is a window, not a doorway? Yeah, it’s, it’s something to see, and then to take back and apply in your own life, or to learn from. Yeah, I think so. If you’re interested, I mean, this whole idea is about, for me, delving into the nature of consciousness, and I think it’s a very valuable experience to go through to understand what it means to have consciousness in the human body.
1:05:19 It’s a large subject to tackle, but I think it’s an important one to try and understand. Yeah, and I think it’s important that you’re saying that. Not, yeah, you don’t need to do this every weekend, you don’t need to escape and see these things and see these truths, and that can even be the wrong thing, because ultimately you do have to live in reality, and hopefully these things can give you insights into making some changes. What I kind of realized today is that I probably need to go back in and drink ayahuasca this year, maybe once or twice, and then, you know, the battle’s not over, and I’m a newbie compared to you.
1:05:50 You’re, I’m, on three ceremonies, you’re on 40. I know it’s not a quantity thing, but I probably have a lot more to understand in the long run about my own consciousness. You have a many more years on you as well. So you’re kind of dealing through a lot, they heard, he throws, versus a lot water. You go through, and call me old guy.
1:06:10 I think I may be older, but, you know, I mean, I’ve never had a huge amount to deal with in terms of am my own personal life. I never had any kind of traumatic experiences in my childhood, so I never really had to process a lot of that, and it felt like I kind of got past that very quickly, and my focus kind of descended on trying to understand what these states of mind are, right? But also you found a journey in trying to, to become less shy and to try to get out of your shell, more.
1:06:42 Yeah, of course, you know, it really does open you up to more experimental ways of approaching your work. And what it made me realize is it also gave me a message to want to produce artwork about But it made me realize that doing artwork, and then picking up other processes, using film, talking, even like this, how we are now, it’s all different ways of trying to get out the same messages, but it can help me get out of that art box and put me into other things. Okay, what’s it for someone listening to this or watching us right now?
1:07:13 That’s, you know, watch us go on this crazy, crazy journey, with some bumps along the road there were. And even setting this up, I mean, what can they take away if they’re never going to do this, or they’re thinking about it? You know, if you can give them some parting advice about what we’ve done today, and what we’ve learned. What, what would you say? I think we touched on it before.
1:07:35 I think people get a bizzle to grown into the unique experiences of these altered states of mind and I think ultimately if you’re not bringing back information to use in your daily life, because we’re here to live in this ordinary mundane reality, and if it’s not in any way kind of assist in that, then you have to wonder, well, what is the use of it? So make it practical. Make it practical. Yeah. And it’s very important what you go through, see through these experiences, to come back and ground it into this reality.
1:08:05 Question: when will be the next time you’ll be smoking DMT? My Henry thought I would for a while, sir. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I’m in no need to. Yeah, I mean no need to, no rush. I kind of saw a glimpse of something.
1:08:15 I didn’t feel like I needed to go back there as of yet. I know. It’s there. If anything, it just reminded me of my own fragility of my own consciousness and my own perceptions, and that there’s another world right over there that is existing in a parallel way with my own world. So does seem to be that way, and you know, we could try and shy away from saying it, but it seems evident that it along those lines.
1:08:42 Yeah, I mean, and it’s all Bill Hicks. He’s an old comedian. He just said, you know what, will sooner or later you realize this whole thing is just a ride, you know, and I don’t mean to trivialize life. But you do realize that something like today, it’s like you know, all of your emotions and feelings and most important desires and accomplishments you want to make are really just electrical and chemical impulses, in, you know, one or two kilos on the top of your head, and those can be altered very easily.
1:09:06 So I think, I guess, that’s a bit of ego disillusion that I’m describing. All right. And I think ultimately for me, I guess it might step on, slightly, metaphysical terms, but I think behind everything, even these experiences you’re having with the altered states of mind, that I do see that behind all of that. When you connect to your true self, when you realize you are the entire works of the universe. It’s kind of you see life is living through you, having the experience of separation from all that is, and everything you go through, negative, all these trivial things that kind of valuable learning experiences for our true self, which is all of this extent.
1:09:43 Hmm, that’s deep. It’s funny, ’cause I don’t have, I didn’t get an attachment to a soul when I want to go into these experiences. I don’t think there is another level of beings and consciousness. I just see things, and I bring things back, so for me, maybe it’s my practical mind, but I don’t think that there are other even beings and entities, per se. I’ve just seen something, that there’s, it’s very interesting to know it’s there.
1:10:10 Yeah, but also, I’m in my early days, and I could change over time, or not. You know, so I mean, I’m still, I, I’ve always been a very much a skeptic. And I’m not willing to put my foot down and say it’s this way or that way. But I think maybe, I’m working in art my whole life. It’s made my thinking maybe a little more loose, like a full willing to allow, and ideas come in, and at least play with.
1:10:27 I think, okay. Excellent. I am, I don’t know what else there is to say. Oh, just for timing, are you gonna be going back to ayahuasca this year? Are you going to take a break?
1:10:43 Has that changed after what happened to you, too? I’m taking a break from this, you know, for, tea ceremonies enough, and as I said, I’m trying to find out ways to tap into this more on a meditation basis. I interviewed one guy in America, Allen Steinfeld, who he said he came back from, in different, one lady, who? sat in a dark room for 40 days, and said this whole space just opened up right in front of her, and It really did pique my interest when I went through a particular ayahuasca experience, and the next day I started to read more about the life of the Buddha, Siddhartha, and they talked about his awakening underneath the bodhi tree, and it seemed like they were just describing my ayahuasca ceremony.
1:11:22 Okay? And it seemed like that was a kind of thumbs-up that, yes, you know, if you put your mind to it, it’s something that can be attained through meditation. So you want to achieve your next level of enlightenment through meditation? I think so, and I think it sounds like something would be a lot harder. But I think, because it’s hard, it’ll happen, more permanent fix.
1:11:40 Yeah. No, I totally salute that, you know. I think it’s, I totally salute that, and I have nothing wrong with the shamans or ayahuasca people that are trying. But I love it when anyone takes a step back and analyzes their behavior, because you can always come back to it. You know, yeah, there is this aspect, you know, no matter how much information you can bring back through the experience, it does take you up and brings, you can write back down.
1:12:03 It’s not this permanent state of mind, which is maybe a good thing, ’cause it’s, however, overwhelming. I think that something could be said about putting the hard work to attain new states of awareness. Cool. No free lunch, as they say. Awesome.
1:12:20 I just wanted to thank the people in the continent that helped us out. If you want any information about them, don’t email me, don’t ask me about it, because we’re not going to talk about that. If you want to have your own experiences, please research them. Well, there’s lots of information on the internet. In no way are we suggesting you do this.
1:12:38 We just wanted to do this for ourselves, and address, and what, in my opinion, was a big elephant in the room. And it came to London Real. We’ve talked about ayahuasca, Sillas, iben. We’ve had doctors on, and we’ve talked about DMT. I’m okay.
1:12:48 Alex is okay, you know, he, you know, he’s still extremely good looking, and, and we’re back. We’re gonna continue on with my day and the show, but thank you for doing this with me. Thanks for me. I wouldn’t have wanted anyone else with me, but you cool, all right, well until then, all the best, everybody, and it’s about the journey, it is indeed. Thank you.
