Full transcript: David Carvalho on London Real
3:28 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is David Carvalho, the cybersecurity pioneer, ethical hacker, and deep tech innovator. You have over 2 decades of experience defending critical systems across governments, defense, finance and infrastructure and have advised NATO aligned initiatives, national security programs and Fortune 500 companies on cyber warfare, AI integrity and digital sovereignty. You are the Founder, CEO and Chief Scientist of Naoris Protocol, the world’s first decentralized post quantum secure cybersecurity mesh and you are laying the foundation for a new era of digital trust. Your protocol transforms every device into a validator of security, enabling swarm based AI and real time verification at global scale.
4:18 Today, you’re not just introducing a new blockchain, you’re building the security backbone for the next generation of smart cities, national infrastructure and AI systems. And you’re soon to be issued Naoris utility token Willpower, the first truly scalable real world cyber mesh. David, welcome to London Real. My pleasure, Ryan. Thank you. Hey, I want to start by saying that NARAS Protocol is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures, the world’s first media powered investment firm, where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting edge Web 3 and AI companies while giving our partners marketing exposure across the London Real media platforms and academies.
4:57 We heighten awareness, create customers and build communities by leveraging our global audience and extensive network. David, we are super excited to be part of this journey with you. So let’s jump in. What is NARAS Protocol? Yeah.
5:11 Thanks for the question. So Norwich Protocol is the world’s first hyper structure of Web three. So the Internet is a collection of different protocols. Web 3 right now is a collection of protocols that do the same thing, what we believe that the Internet is going to transform and you’re going to have different protocols that actually apply to different use cases. And our focus is very much on infrastructure, infrastructure, trust, resiliency and security. So Norwich Protocol is as its core a decentralized post quantum validated system that allows for every application, every system in the world to prove that it is on a trusted state as it operates under post quantum fingerprints validated by all the other devices.
6:01 So the more devices that participate, the more resilient it gets exponentially, which is pretty much the opposite of how it works right now in the world. Whatever device is a single point of failure And we extend this both to infrastructure, what we call sub zero layer and also so that means the real world every device becomes decentralized it also into block chains through validation at post quantum level of transactions and making them resilient to Q day into the future. You know, David, you keep saying this term post quantum, and we’ve all heard that one day quantum computers are going to break all of our security from our passwords on websites to all the cryptography that keeps our Bitcoin safe and our our Ethereum safe.
6:46 You know, every every week we seem to hear that, you know, Google is coming up with a new quantum computer and then we hear maybe the Chinese have one. And then some people say it’s not happening for 10 years and some people said it’s 10 months away. What can you tell us about the quantum computer threat? How real is it? And correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re trying to build a solution to where that’s not going to be an issue for a lot of these things. Exactly.
7:13 So, you know, looking forward to the future, we need to be future ready. Yes, quantum interviews are real. They’re a real thing, and there’s constant breakthroughs even on our weekly devices. It is an engineering problem. So if you throw enough people at it and enough money at it, just like, for example, China is doing, they’re going to crack it.
7:31 Just like it was hard when we put the man on the moon. But it was an engineering problem, right? So right now that is I would say probably the biggest threat to stability and cybersecurity as we know it, Brian, we are witnessing the end of cybersecurity as we know it right now. Slowly, quantum is going to come to all cryptography that backs the world. It doesn’t matter if it’s, you know, nuclear secrets or blockchains like the meteor has come from the dinosaurs.
8:03 And it is our opportunity to actually become quantum resilient right now because there are massive operations in place right now to actually do what’s called harvest now, decrypt later. So the data is being harvested, kept in cold storage by governments, by other entities. And this is encrypted data. So every current encrypted data using current means that are not quantum resilient, It’s a breach waiting to happen in the future. So we need to make it post quantum or quantum resilient or quantum safe, which is the same thing right now, so that we can protect our future.
8:42 Wow. OK. So there’s there’s kind of like, you know, some type of a web crawler right now that’s crawling all of the current security and encryption and it’s kind of saving all that information. So at some point in the future when the quantum computer comes, it can crack it immediately. Is that is that what you’re saying?
8:59 That’s that’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And right now, every digital system in the world is one door for hackers to break is a single point of failure to all the systems that are connected to it, right? And that’s true for hardware, for software applications, it doesn’t matter right now. That’s nobody’s fault.
9:17 It is just how the Internet was done or, or, or made. However, as the world expands and we get to 50 billion IoT devices, etcetera, etcetera, that just becomes impossible to manage. And the more complexity you have, the more risk you have. So this is pretty much a, a mind blowing stat, but a breach happens at every 11 seconds and it happens because of centralisation, it happens to be because of the single point of failure, right? So we turn every device into a security validator.
9:49 So imagine if we have, for example, a million nodes, which we have right now. There’s actually a million devices that you need to break in order to break our distributed proof of security consensus in order for you to attack a single one. And so this is how we see the future. This is what actually got us working with the number of former 8 leaders. And they’re very highly resilient to environments and objectives into the future. And post quantum backbones for this was a non negotiable. So these environments are strategic in nature. And for them, bringing blockchain together with postponed capability, the most mature areas in AI and cybersecurity, is just the only way for us to actually be able to have a trustable and resilient future. You know, one of the things that really impressed us when we spoke to you originally before we invested was you have all of these NATO generals as advisors.
10:47 Now. We’ve been investing for about four years, David, but I’ve never, ever had a pitch where you have not just one, but a whole lineup of NATO generals. And I was a bit shocked and but also I was impressed. And I can start to see how serious this problem is. It’s not just about protecting your password on Google or even protecting your Bitcoin. It’s really about like global national security. And it’s something the military, correct me if I’m wrong, has been thinking about probably for the last 10 years. Can you talk about, you know, your alliance with those generals, why it’s important and maybe why they’ve been thinking about this before the rest of us? Yeah, that, that’s absolutely right. So yes, it is.
11:31 So in such environments, so environments related to defence and the national security, critical infrastructure, Gov tech, highly critical environments like that, also highly regulated spaces. I would include for example, banking and you know, you know, trading floors, etcetera. These topics are board level topics. So there are there are conversations at board level that are extremely strategic. And then there are other environments that are responsible for, you know, the survivability of society, namely defence, right.
12:06 So such environments are quite aware of of of the risk for society. So if there is a quantum attack, for example, against the power grid, say in the United States, that would lead to, you know, potentially 60% of the people in big cities dying after a short amount of time because everything stops, right? It’s incredible what happens when everything stops. I was actually on a flight from in Europe, from Norway to Portugal, when there was a big blackout recently in the Iberian Peninsula.
12:39 And for about two days, there was no power. And it was pretty much similar to a zombie apocalypse. You know, there is nobody knows what to do. Nothing works. The phones don’t work.
12:50 The, the you can’t call an Uber, everybody’s stuck. The trains don’t move. You can’t call your loved ones. You don’t know if people are flying or if their planes landed in a place or in another place, so on and so forth. It’s very, it’s very disturbing. There’s no water in the faucet, right? So a quantum level attack allows for a level of supremacy and access.
13:11 That is completely it. It, it’s something that nobody has ever seen, right? But it’s something that that people in that space are quite aware, right? So I’m going to give you a quote. But the country that achieves quantum supremacy first will rule the world. This is a quote by Vladimir Putin, and there’s similar quotes on both sides of the Atlantic. And the focus on such technologies is such that, for example, the Chinese government has been investing more in quantum technology than they have invested, for example, the last years in their nuclear program. And that tells you our strategic these technologies for supremacy, because once you have access to quantum supremacy, all the passwords, all the encryption, all the things that will actually that are protecting things that matter or that should be secret are now gone. You have gained supremacy.
14:10 In other words, the other side has lost sovereignty. So this is how important it is to actually mitigate these risks because it is a survivability risk and these environments live under the the umbrella of strategy and there’s nothing more strategic in our lifetimes than actually mitigating for a complete collapse of authenticated access, which is what quantum will allow for. In in some ways, David is quantum, or the race for quantum, more important than the race for AI. Yes, yes, it’s much bigger than that. It’s much bigger than AIAI just happens to be the the shiny object right now, because that is a lot of like, you know, connection that you can have with it, right. Even though it’s fake, it’s it’s not a real thing, but AI can actually run on top of quantum and quantum will unlock different levels of AI even potentially, you know, other levels of AI supremacy and AI will leave, I am sure the quantum threat.
15:13 So if you have access to, you know, good AI capabilities from an offensive perspective and you are also backed by quantum computing capabilities in a way that can break, you know, any secrets that are on the other side, you pretty much become unstoppable. And that would be the biggest upset to global order that we would have in our lifetimes or maybe ever. Yeah, because it’s it’s like if one nation got a slightly better AI, you can see that they have an advantage. But if one nation has quantum it, like you said, it’s almost like they can break everything and blow everybody away. That’s right.
15:52 So the, the, the vision for the Irish protocol initially was to take away the signal point of failure from existing environments. So the more complex it gets, the easier it is to get into because there’s more entry points, right? It’s the centralisation issue. So by decentralizing the approach, you actually add resiliency. But the post quantum part of it actually allows for the for you to prove that whatever you’re seeing on your screen, for example, about the remote system is actually true, right? And it also allows you to prove that your data is in a trusted state and your systems are in a trusted state because if something happens to them, because there’s a, you know, something gets exploited or there’s a malicious access, you probably would never know.
16:38 And there would be probably an Infinity of ways to stop you from knowing because everything is a point of failure and there’s nobody watching the Watchers. So the whole blockchain ecosystem, you know, principal, let’s say your backbone backed by, you know, a quantum validation sphere allows you to know that what you’re seeing is actually true because the proof is at quantum level. So it’s it’s resilient to attackers tampering with it and telling you that there’s nothing to see here, right?
17:08 Because that’s the first thing that happens in an attack after persistence, you know, the attacker stays there and starts changing what appears to be reality. And you cannot trust anything that you can see in any system anymore. And that’s true even when you, for example, talk to people that participate in, for example, NATO cyber war games and things like that. The biggest issue they have is actually not defence. The biggest issue they have is truth, what is actually real, right? And there’s this quote.
17:36 You know, when a conflict starts, the first thing that dies is truth. Yeah. It’s fascinating because we’ve seen that recently with contact conflicts around the world, right? There’s the version of what happened, then there’s what really happened, and we really don’t know. And sometimes the story of what happened is more important than what actually happened. And sometimes we’re never going to find out what actually happened.
18:00 And yeah, I guess truth is the first casualty of war or something like that. It’s interesting that you mentioned decentralization because a lot of people go into the blockchain for different reasons. Maybe they want the public Ledger, maybe they want the immutability, but it sounds like the decentralized nature of blockchain is the very reason that Naras is built on that, because you need to to not have that single point of failure. Can you speak a little more on why you’ve been building on the blockchain for so long? Right, so you know blockchain is moving beyond. To transform, you know, business per time value comes from utility, not from speculation.
18:43 And right now the, the, the environment that we have in, in Web 3 is generally speculative. That is a, a, a big transition I believe right now in this cycle towards, you know, real world use cases and use cases that don’t just fit within the bubble of blockchain. So in in our case, one of the biggest mandates that we had from former NATO leaders was actually to create a blockchain backbone that could be used, you know, between nation states, you know, that would increase the resiliency of interoperable systems.
19:16 So for example, if a country gets, you know, a system in a country gets hijacked and the say a smart city environment, like for example, a water treatment plant gets the wrong mixture, it can lead to deaths, could be a terrorist attack, for example. Normally, you know, there would be no kind of like immune system present. So for example, another country, say, if this happened in Italy, in Ireland, there would be no capability to deal with this instantly. That would be probably kind of like some research about this. And maybe six months after the attack was done, there would be done some kind of postmortem analysis. And then maybe there will be some upgrades across the board. But if all these systems are actually connected and they’re a decentralized cyber physical resilience mesh, which is what now is for.
20:02 Automatically that intelligence about the risk and what’s happening pretty much in a live setting is going to enable another city, for example, in a different country that is not even connected to the same network, but it is connected to the chain chain to be instantly protected against this sort of threat in the in the hardened, right. So it’s a, it’s a completely different way of how you think about risk. Another example would be that is actually possible because of blockchain and decentralization.
21:30 And that allows for real world problems to be solved is say, for example, if you’re a bank and you have say 40 million clients, they are both your biggest source of wealth and they’re also your biggest source of risk because people are clicking on malicious links, maybe putting their credentials on websites. And under Norwich protocol, all those people can actually be an army that are not just defending the bank, that are defending each other from their pockets, right. And if one of the applications on your phone is tampered with, then the bank and the other people are not going to agree under the consensus that we have created decentralized proof security that we have created under the leadership of former NATO leaders that that they’re not going to agree that that is in a trusted state.
22:14 Therefore, you will not be able to make a transaction. So it opens if you if you think about this as extremely powerful principle, it opens a whole new Ave. of utility and use cases for blockchain backed validations that don’t just get limited by, you know, making transactions of cryptocurrency or signing a smart contract. It will be actually about validating that systems, applications, data processes, data streams are actually in a trusted state as they operate.
22:44 The same thing for AIS and AI models. Say for example right now talking very simply about for example, open AI. If you go to chat GPD and ask a question, you have no idea that the answer you’re getting is actually to the question you asked. You don’t know if that was changed in transit or modified. You don’t know if your question actually got to the server.
23:04 In the same way you don’t know if the answer was modified before you got it. You don’t know if the model is in a trusted state or not when you operate it. You don’t know if it has been tampered with or if it has been hacked. You don’t know if the source of data has been tampered by an external government government to change your opinion. You don’t know if it’s coming from a trusted service, from a in a trusted server, and if the data has been changed in transit.
23:24 Right? You don’t know if the model was in a trusted state as it trained. So these are all immense challenges that actually countries just aligned with our, you know, our advisors, as you said, and also team members that are, you know, nation state leaders and, and defence leaders are very aware. The objective to generate trust is probably the most important area. And Web 3 in my view, needs to be the backbone of infrastructure.
23:51 Trust is at the baseline of this in in general for all sorts of use cases in society, right? So yeah, there is 2030 objectives that most countries have and all of them include advanced objectives like, you know, quantum cryptography or post quantum cryptography in in assurance and security, decentralized security, trusted or sovereign AI systems, etcetera. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but NVIDIA just last week announced that they were going to pivot from actually making chips in order to start operating in the sovereign and trusted AI space.
24:35 So that is something that is very, very close to us and that we’re working very, very closely with countries and that we have the capability to do. And, and, and that’s, that’s one of the byproducts of, of knowledge protocol utility to create this kind of like, you know, unhackable always on infrastructure. It’s fascinating that NVIDIA decided to pivot. And I’m guessing and tell me if I’m wrong, David, it’s because they see what you’ve just talked about, this proof of security as just as important or maybe more important than the hardware itself.
25:11 Because you could have the fastest hardware, the greatest AI, but if you can’t trust it, then it’s not only worthless, it’s actually dangerous. Yeah, you’re right. You can have all the data in the world. You can have the best hardware in the world. But if you can’t trust the source and there’s no way for you to prove that you can’t trust the source and the data itself, then you’re probably not going to be making good decisions and you’re probably going to be manipulated, right?
25:39 So that’s one of the big parts of sovereignty around the around, you know, quantum resilience, right? That’s where there is an opportunity that appears that wasn’t there to actually tamper with all that is supposed to be real. And as you know, we get most of our information in first, second or third hand through our mobile devices, be it laptops or phones or etcetera. So reality is what we we receive is not necessarily what is sent or created. Now we are creating a way to prove that actually reality was created in a trusted place by a trusted party and it’s received in a trusted way and this changes everything. And you call this deposec, this decentralized proof of security, that’s one of your creations, is that right? That’s correct.
26:31 So Deposec is the decentralized proof of security consensus mechanism that’s backed by post quantum fingerprints and post quantum transactions on chain. It’s all about you having trust over the truth that you’re looking at. And the, I would say it doesn’t matter how many times I talk, I talk about such topics with people that are in, in these, you know, highly critical spaces. This is the only future. Like decentralized security is the only viable future. Otherwise, we’re just going to continue to have more and more risk and more and more complexity. That’s just going to become more and more expensive and lead to more and more risks and more opportunities for, for, for entry points, etcetera.
27:19 So the need for decentralized security is so obvious. It’s like asking if we need the Internet back in 1990. It’s not an option. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s evolution, just like quantum cryptography and, and post quantum in, in, in the quantum supremacy is inevitable, right? It’s like death. It’s going to happen.
27:40 So we just need to be ready for it. Wow, you you’ve used this term like cybersecurity mesh? I’ve never really heard that term used before. What does that mean? So cybersecurity mesh or decentralized cybersecurity mesh is a technology that we, we, we have created. So it’s a term that we have coined. It’s what happens when you connect a lot of sovereign systems that are in a provenly trusted state. And that can include blockchain validators, right? Because right now none of them are in a trusted state. Unfortunately.
28:20 The only thing they need to to operate is to have some tokens and be online, which is something that needs to be upgraded in general in Web 3. And that is going to become a risk for everything from Bitcoin to any other crypto. So the resiliency of these spaces needs to be increased from the infrastructure level all the way to transaction level for various reasons. But this is also transversely true across the world. So we have created Depos SEC as one of the fundamental technologies aligned with other technologies that we have created like decentralized identity of elevation authority like DIVA, that’s called DIVA where we can actually identify a uniquely each system and prove that ARPU. They say they are at at web three level using the blockchain, not using any means that will allow for them to be attacked or tampered with.
29:10 Like for example, you know, IPS or Mac addresses or, or emails for phones or etcetera. So the objective is to create an anonymous and diagnostic mesh that the more it grows, the more trustworthy it becomes and the more resilient it becomes from a perspective of tampering. So it’s pretty much the opposite of how the Internet has been set up. So we look at this as the first protocol of Web 3 for the real world. So something that, you know, when you have 10s of millions of devices connected and as humanity expands and goes into the morning to Mars and in, in, in other areas of space, all these systems are actually connected in a mesh. It doesn’t really matter if they are on Earth or in space. They’re all protecting each other and they are not point of failure anymore.
30:04 And that will allow us to, to, to achieve our, our, our, our bigger objectives. Otherwise, we’re just, you know, busy trying to manage this. OK, You know Michael Saylor has been asked about the quantum threat to Bitcoin and because he owns a lot of it, right 600,000 plus Bitcoin and he said that in the future they’ll that that the chain will just upgrade when that solution exists. And I’m wondering if he’s already thinking about something like Narrows protocol that can upgrade Bitcoin because he’s literally said that.
30:37 He said, well, when that problem comes, we’ll find the solution and bake that into the way that Bitcoin works. Is he already talking to you guys? No, not yet. But I’ve actually written about that I believe in Forbes and other other other environments Exactly about the comments. Bitcoin is, is technology that is using cryptography from the 80s.
31:02 And how can I say if we don’t, if, if we think exactly like that and, and expect some, you know, magical change to happen, then we’re just slowly moving into obsolescence. So right now the I I would say the the most important point would be to find ways that don’t need a hard fork towards Bitcoin because that would be very hard. All the transactions since the beginning would have to be remade. All the wallets would have to be remade because the cryptography is not compatible. Post quantum cryptography and traditional cryptography or elliptic curve based cryptography are not compatible technologies.
31:45 So the ideal approach is to find a way to solve for example transaction based issues, where for example a quantum attack against an already signed hash that is being broadcasted in the network that’s public can lead to the breaking of the double spent guarantees that blockchain provides. And the immutability as well in changing, for example, the amount of the transaction or the destination in a way that bypasses consensus mechanisms, which are really the, you know, the backbone of, of block chains right now. So this is risk. These, these are risks that I’ve actually written extensively about and also other researchers have. And it is a survivability risk.
32:25 As I mentioned before, quantum is coming to Bitcoin and all cryptography in the world. It doesn’t matter if it’s in the healthcare context or in government context or in crypto context, like the meteor has come for the dinosaurs and it is, is our opportunity now to actually do something about it, become quantum resilient now so that we can be be be resilient to this as soon as that happens or already resilient. Once one Q day happens, that’s already too late.
32:55 You already lost. You cannot go back, right? So just like if you are, say, in an airplane and somebody will tell you, oh, there’s 5% probability that this parachute is not going to open if you jump, well, yeah, it’s 5%, but you’re going to jump. No, you’re not. So that is the situation we’re in right now.
33:15 And this 5% are increasing every week, I would say. How close do you think we are, David, to that quantum computer that can start to break basic levels of of cryptography? Well, through Norwich protocol we have access to a number of agencies. I cannot discuss exactly, but let’s just say that that is a very big awareness that in certain regions of the world, there’s constant breakthroughs towards that queue day, but that’s actually not the focus in their case. I can give you some example, for example, in the US, that has been a government mandate for all businesses to be quantum resilient by 2028.
34:02 However, that’s what’s set publicly. In reality, they understand the risk is a lot closer than that, but it in private. However, the biggest risk is not necessarily when a quantum supremacy event is going to happen, because if that happens, that is a high probability that the threat actor will go undetected for the longest time and things just look like normal hacks, right? And they will never reveal that they actually have that capability because that’s their biggest advantage.
34:32 And they will just keep hoarding and hoarding data and intellectual property and so on, right? So that might have not happened for like, for example, a year while that actually already happened. So that’s like like a global rug pool on anything that actually matters, right? And that that would be too late already. I would say the biggest risk that everybody’s aware of is what’s called the harvest now decrypt later problem. So as every transaction that you make, every time you expose your keys to the Internet, etcetera, they’re an encrypted state that is vulnerable to computers.
35:04 This is being harvested. And this is being harvested for all sorts of use cases, not just on blockchain for, you know, cyber spinach use cases, cyber cyber terrorism use cases and and many other things. And once that’s harvested it, it’s in cold storage somewhere and there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s, it’s just waiting to be decrypted. So it’s a little bit like, you know, when you have in the Terminator movie, the T800 going back in time. So Schwarzenegger going back in time to protect the future. In order for you to protect your future, you need to be post resilient now, post quantum resilient now, right? That is the that is the the thing that is in everybody’s mind at the moment and that, you know, CE OS of Google, you know, NSA, so on and so forth.
35:54 I’ve been speaking about very heavily in the last year. Yeah, you’re basically creating attack vectors every single day because you’re not post quantum compliant. And even though it’s not here yet, you’re basically, yeah, leaving yourself open, right, with these, with these data points that it can come back and attack later. It’s heavy stuff. Quick, quickly, David, how do you explain quantum computing to your grandma?
36:18 Or how do you explain it to a 7 year old? When people say, OK, yeah, but I don’t understand what it what is it? And maybe they don’t need to understand exactly what it is, but how do you try to explain it to people? Because I think most people don’t really get it. Right.
36:31 So that normally starts by explaining what’s the difference between traditional encryption and in, what happens, why it’s so resilient and why quantum computers can break it. So I’ll give you an example. Let’s say that you have eggs that are dyed, right? And you want to make an omelette. And let’s say you have 256 eggs and they all have different colors, right?
36:56 And you choose, you know, six eggs and you make an omelette, right? Once you make an omelette, you’ll probably end up with a color that’s some kind of like brown or something. And it’s really hard for you to say which eggs went into, into the omelette, right, to make that specific colour. So you’d have to try all possible colours and you would have to, to try all possible options. And that’s really what happens right now with cryptography. So computers, they work in a sequential manner. So they try one, they give it one try, they give it another try, another try until they eventually get to the, to the, to the, for example, the right password, right? So the password in this case would be the right sequence of X.
37:41 With quantum computers, that’s not an issue. So if you have for say, for example, 2056 qubits, you could actually, you know, reverse engineer all omelets at the same time for, for all use cases. So for all callers, so you wouldn’t have to to, to to do all the tries that traditionally you would have to do. So that’s why with the quantum computer you can actually achieve calculations that would take, for example, a septillion years with all the computing power on Earth to achieve, because quantum computers can operate, can do operations in parallel how traditional computers can only do operations in sequence.
38:26 So what you’re doing is you’re having a much bigger computational capability that is really good at calculating. So it’s like a giant calculator. You’re not going to be running need for Speed or Outlook in any quantum computer anytime soon, but they are really good at making calculations. And unfortunately all the cryptography we have created until now is extremely vulnerable to that. However, quantum resilient cryptography or quantum safe or post quantum cryptography is done in a way that the mathematics are actually very hard for quantum computers to deal with. OK.
39:02 And will will quantum computers make AI research go faster or is that a different type of computing? So there’s certain areas of AI and computation that quantum measures can help with for now. And I think we’ll see more and more of this that will accelerate massively. Certain areas of AI, for example, number crunching, think about, for example, molecular biology, drug discovery, been in the same thing around pathogen discovery. And, and, and the other side of the coin, because every technology has dual use. So yes, it, it, it’s, it’s going to be a revolution within a revolution.
39:48 So quantum is going to supercharge AI to a point where, well, it is already very hard to manage and you don’t really know what’s happening within it, but to a point where you, you can potentially have a singularity then. And that kind of scares me quite a bit because there is absolutely no trust around AI. There is no trust of AI systems. We are very focused in helping create that but. You actually cannot right now really know why AI gives you a certain answer or another answer.
40:27 So that is just going to become a lot more complex and it will allow for AI algorithms and mechanisms to create better models of themselves recursively potentially to a point where it will be exponentially better in exponentially shorter amounts of time and we have lost all control. I am very negative about that, I have to say and and I will continue to be. So it’s going to be, I would say, extremely important for world leaders to be aware of that and to be aware of how important it is to create trusted validated mechanisms and and baselines for artificial intelligence, especially in the context of quantum chips, which they are currently available.
42:17 Yeah, it’s, it’s a scary scenario. You know, we were around in 2020 and we were kind of getting censored for some of our messages, David. And but back then, you know, you would see a message and then you wouldn’t see, for example, our videos. But still, as a human, you could still kind of make your own decisions. Whereas if that all happened again today or next year or the year after that, the AI would just tell you the answer, wouldn’t it?
42:43 You wouldn’t have to think, oh, I believe that guy. I don’t believe that guy. Where is that guy? It would just tell you the answer. And these days, I think so many people are now just trusting whatever spits out of this centralized AI.
42:55 And it actually makes it even more dangerous because the human is getting to be trusting so much. And like you said it, they’ll never going to know if it’s secure. And even if it is secure, where the data come came from and it’s potentially an even more dangerous scenario than what we saw in 2020. That’s right. You don’t know where it comes from. You don’t know if it’s trustworthy, you don’t know if the systems are getting it from have been compromised or not, or if the data has been tampered with. These are absolute gaps that need to be filled in AI for us to actually use it for more real use cases instead of just mundane operations, which they are being integrated right now at government level, at military level, so on, so forth. And, and this is not only about transparency and, and it’s also about freedom, right?
43:42 And because it’s very, I think it’s very easy for all of us to imagine that if there is no transparency and no provable trust around every AI mechanism and source of data and source of truth, that that could be easily, you know, driven into some sort of like propaganda machine, right? And that’s not something any of us wanted to do. But I, I believe that, or all of us, believe that the solution to that is directly proportional and parallel to the kind of technologies that we are focused on developing for the same sort of trust use cases that will ultimately benefit defence governments, but ultimately society and freedom as well.
44:26 David, let’s talk about how Narrus delivers for its customers because you’ve talked quite a bit about Gov tech, you’ve talked about banking, but you’ve also talked about the mobile phone in my hand and whether I can trust all the apps there. Are you really a solution for everybody and all these different sectors or there’s certain ones that you’re going to focus on, at least in the beginning? Well, we’re going to be, as we move into main net, we’re going to be opening the the SDK of Knowledge protocol in a public setting.
44:58 So people will be able to create solutions for whatever objective they deem necessary in whatever process they need to approve trust over, right? And that could be over infrastructure, over APIs, over applications, over data streams or VPN’s. It could be anything, right over signatures on a document, right. So yes, the, just like the large protocol is a, is a, an infrastructure backbone for various tools to be used. So you can think about it kind of like a decentralized operating system of trust where you can add your infrastructure into and it benefits from all the others that may be doing different things.
45:40 But you know, they’re all proving mathematically that everything else in the environment is in a trusted state, right. So this is made to be completely transversal. We have actually went to and this was through the introduction of you know some generals that we had working with us etcetera for a number of national strategic technology incubators around the world from South Korea to Chile, Austria and other countries where we ended up being the winners of these technology incubators in many different use cases. You know from Fintech to telecommunications to defense. And we don’t, you know, large protocol is a fundamental technology.
46:20 So it can be applied into any process, into any use case, pretty much just like, for example, a Wi-Fi antenna or, or, or, or a processor, right? So it’s easy for me to imagine that, you know, as chips are manufactured and mobile devices are made and applications are written, you, you know, if you have the capability to fundamentally in a trusted way, prove that everything that is operating is in a trusted state when it operates and to prove its state when it interacts with each other. It’s, it’s very hard for me to imagine that that will not be adopted.
47:03 It, it would be the equivalent of say, no, no, I, I don’t want to make an encrypted phone call. I, I want to keep my phone calls open right when you have the adoption. So that’s, yeah, I would say it’s even above that because it’s, it’s about, it’s about trust, it’s about resilience. And the only way to solve current problems is actually through trust and resilience because those two things are massive gaps in everything that we do right now. That’s you were saying before. You really, if you think about it, can’t really. There’s no way for you to prove that anything you see anywhere is actually in a trusted state.
47:41 And it’s going to get worse. And with the deal with the AIS and the deepfakes and everything that’s just, it seems like Naoris is coming at the perfect time. And Speaking of that, your Naoris token I believe is coming live soon. Why do I need to own that token? Is that something I need to have in order to start using Naoris protocol across any kind of system that I want to post quantum proof?
48:06 Right. So you know, the, you know, tell the truth, Brian. Now is as a utility is going to be used across all the nodes for very different use cases. It’s going to be used to pay or support the network, right, just like gas. And we might have 20 different use cases or 200 different use cases that are what we call perch clusters. So our block chains within block chains that have different rules and they all achieve consensus independently and they all use our token as fuel, right.
48:39 So you can look at it as a security credit that, you know, individuals all the way to Fortune 500 companies will need to buy to stay, you know, in a very secure state or very highly resilient. And that can happen either directly through dollars or through the token. Of course, for a from a business perspective, the there is some difficulty in dealing with tokens. So for companies, there is going to be a traditional mechanism that is similar to, for example, cloud services.
49:12 But in the end the token is in the background as well because this is a decentralized Web 3 based, you know, principle. So value comes, as I mentioned, from utility. And in this case, I think we have one of the biggest utility use cases where what you’re, you’re actually proving that something is in a in a safe state. So you’re providing value through assurance or resilience or security or confidentiality or availability checks right to any other device in the world. That’s part of these decentralized infrastructure and, you know, environments must hold Naoris to, you know, execute these these transactions. So right now, just to give you an idea that is just in the cybersecurity world for getting, you know, infrastructure operations, which is a lot more which also has a lot to do with trust.
50:09 But there’s about $12 trillion that will be lost this year to cyber issues globally. And if you think about it, that would be probably the world’s second or third biggest economy if that was a country. So we believe that through this, you know, just imagine if every device on Earth would be needing Naoris to stay secure and be a node. We would be creating kind of like the world’s security currency. We would be creating the world’s resilient, most resilient backbone that you can imagine.
50:47 And it will push our society to the next level. But yeah, that’s what I would say. It’s, it’s a necessity. So regulatory compliance, security, I think the the the demand for now is level validation. It just makes sense in general to exist. And you mentioned that businesses will probably pay in dollars via, you know, like I would for a cloud service. Will you take those revenues and then go in and buy and burn tokens?
51:15 And will that kind of all go back into just token appreciation? That’s right. That’s right. That’s exactly, that’s exactly 1 and provide value to, you know, the valuators, the note holders that are providing the value to the network even for enterprise environments that of course cannot deal with tokens, they cannot keep tokens on their books in the background. They’re basically just kind of like, you know, let’s say reserving tokens for their operations, even though tokens may not be used on their network, that’s part of their licenses, etcetera. David, you, you have a bunch of, you know, NATO generals, you know, on your board and his advisors. Do you expect Nowrus to be adopted by militaries and governments?
52:09 Is this something that’s already going to happen or happen? And is, is there anything that stops them from doing it because obviously they have highly, you know, secure issues to deal deal with. I guess a bank does as well. Right, so directly I I don’t think so, but the technology absolutely yes, in that always bleeds down into the the utility, right. You know, Brian, we’re in in, in World War three right now. In some sense.
52:42 It’s very, very hard to, to even think about that. But that’s true. But I, I don’t think that’s what with bombs anymore. It’s what with bits. Cyber permeates every element of warfare from deception in international politics to espionage to land, sea and air.
53:00 I would say it’s the biggest domain right now even though 15 years ago it was non existent, right? And things are changing massively and you have AI driven drones and so on so forth and you know signal warfare etcetera, etcetera. So nations are losing their digital sovereignty daily. They are very aware of that and they are looking for solutions that are resilient, that are give them their, give them new defensive options that use their own existing trusted infrastructure as a backbone, Right. So, you know, I would, I really believe that the, the, the next war will be won by whoever controls the algorithms. So if a country cannot secure its digital borders, then it will have no borders at all.
54:00 So our objective from the large protocol side, with our technology and with the vision of our, our, our, as you say, former NATO generals and NATO leaders that are working with us is to ensure that we’ll have, you know, a more trusted and secure future where cryptography in a decentralized way brings balance to the force. Yeah, and the recent attacks on Iran, we saw a lot of that cybersecurity. We saw them shutting down banks, bank teller machines. I saw flooding in the city. What I was like, OK, that’s probably due to them hacking into infrastructure.
54:37 Obviously had to shut down the Internet, which then, of course, shuts down all the essential services and Lord knows what else they were doing behind the scenes. I also heard that after the official ceasefire that they kept attacking with cyber because that’s not something the public can see per SE. And so I think it happens to a greater extent than most of us even realize. You’re right. And actually that is a huge risk. You know, right now as you say, cyber attacks, they are not kinetic generally, right?
55:06 So they, they, they might actually lead to real world events and damage at, at massive scales, like for example, what happened with the Stuxnet back in the day in Iran or with all the, the mobile phones of a mass, etcetera. Right? Where you can actually be, you know, either, you know, hurt people or stop, for example, a nuclear power, a nuclear power station, a nuclear program from existing through malware, right, without bombing them. But it is still an act of war. And it’s it’s really complicated to deal with that because from an escalation perspective, normally you need to, you know, the laws of war says that you need to respond proportionally and in an equal manner.
55:47 But if you do, for example, cyber attack against, say, the New York Stock Exchange or the, you know, the backbone of electricity of a country, what’s the answer? Is that missiles? Is that bombing? Is that the nuclear attack? What is it?
56:02 Because you just destroyed the economy of the other side, right? The problem here is that I believe because there is, you know, attribution in cyber is very, very poor and the level of trust on data is really poor as well because there’s not there aren’t mechanisms like much protocol to validate things. It’s very hard to say who did what, right? So it’s very easy, I would say, for, you know, deception to occur that will lead to war conflict. And that might not even be done by the country that you think is the aggressive country, right?
56:34 And that is extremely problematic. And as you say, it’s very easy to do cyber attacks compared to conventional attacks because as I mentioned, every single single point of failure, there are so many opportunities. You want to have access to a critical system. Well, maybe, you know, you can just hack the mobile phone of the secretary of another company that’s connected to that network, right? And over time you will have access to that critical system and you may destroy it or ransomware it or steal data. So these are all fundamentals that Nash protocol is there to, to change and the and and to flip pretty much turn all of those single punch failure into the resilience in, in, in, in notes.
57:20 So you know, sovereignty, I would say it used to be about land, but right now it is about data and data access. Yeah. And pretty soon it’s going to be about perception, right? And you and individual’s minds perhaps. David, how long you been working on this? And what’s it like to watch all of your efforts come to fruition with a TGE event because you know you’ve been doing this for a while?
57:49 Yes, yes, we have been doing this for a while. So I’ve left corporate, I believe, in 2017 with this idea, provocative idea with the former chief of intelligence of NATO, Mr. Sheldon Hagen, which was my mentor. And this was also his idea. So he said the first time he actually showed him a demo, he said this is going to change the world. I would like to dedicate it is going to bring peace to the world.
58:13 That’s what he said. I would like to dedicate 10 to 20% of my time to this. And of course, I was very, very humbled by it. And that just meant that we had to go all in. And so so we did.
58:26 So we have been working on this really hard since 2018. That’s when we wrote our first white paper. And then we went to a number of incubators and accelerators around the world. We competed with hundreds of thousands of companies and we were winners in more than 12 of them that were Tier 1 incubators and accelerators. We got the number of investment from their leaders in, in, in various areas like like Team Draper.
58:55 And then we, we had a number of, you know, how can I say research and development efforts to create new technology that was based on a number of mandates that we had from these leaders. Their visions and strategies that right now, at the time they were thought as too early and right now they are definitely materializing. So everybody’s talking about these topics, you know, be it, you know, sovereign or trusted AI, be it, you know, decentralized cybersecurity, be it quantum computing and quantum resilience, right?
1:00:18 So it culminates with a number of peer reviewed white papers and peer reviewed papers that have been very well published with the I Triple E Foundation, which is the biggest engineering group in the world, all the way to a number of universities in both sides of the Atlantic that have peer reviewed papers with us and published with us. And that led to the creation of this technology, which is now the first in production post quantum blockchain. We have done more than more than 90 million transactions at post quantum level.
1:00:48 We have done, we have more than 1,000,000 notes, more than 3,000,000 participants in close to three months and which makes us by far the biggest web tree infrastructure or cybersecurity mesh in the world backed by just centralized devices, which is blockchain outside of blockchain. And that’s what we expect to happen in the rest of the world, the rest of other use cases because it just brings in value. And under this we have actually mitigated more than 400 million threats under the single use case that we made available during this time. So these were risks that didn’t happen. So websites that didn’t steal your data, phishing websites that didn’t take you somewhere for you to, you know, to be defrauded on your credit card or on your crypto environment, so on so forth, right.
1:01:44 And this is just the tip of the spear as we see it. And it’s very exciting to be backed by, you know, such incredible people like these, these these former NATO generals, former national, you know, Cyber Command leaders and, you know, former US White House administration leaders, etcetera, and even some people that actually helped create the Internet as we know it. Because it’s an evolution that we’re going through, right? We’re not fixing something. We’re really changing the paradigm completely with the technology that people thought it was just good for crypto, right? And we want to make that the, the, the, the backbone of, of world’s infrastructure and turn the Internet from what it is now, which is a battlefield into a fortress and making everything stronger, not weaker, right?
1:02:43 David, you’re in San Francisco now. How much do you know the the new regulatory environment from the new administration? How much does that help you do what you need to do with NARAS? Obviously, it’s on chain. Obviously, there’s a token being generated soon.
1:02:59 Is this the perfect timing for that? And do you think that’s just going to accelerate at least in the US going forward? Yeah. I think it’s going to accelerate. I think everybody is, is, is positive and a bit about the, the status quo of what you have described, it’s obvious that we need to move from kind of like an Internet of Things to, to, to an Internet of trust and, and create some, some kind of like immune system in general. So the, the, the fact that, you know, on the element of large protocol, there’s a token involved and we’re going to be launching it soon at this time is exciting. The market’s in a good position, in a good condition. There is a lot of openness from regulatory bodies. However, we have a unique opportunity as a, as a first mover to, you know, not just tackle the quantum issue and the quantum clock, but also leverage the capabilities that we have outside of blockchain with blockchain technology, right more into the, you know, the government’s, the critical infrastructures, the banks, the highly regulated spaces. And so that’s that’s something that, you know, makes us excited and all of us are are aligned in in that vision across the the company and advisors.
1:04:24 David, what’s next? The next 12 months? The next 24 months, obviously the TGE is coming up soon, but like what are the big milestones? What are the big challenges? You have to just take this to the next level and keep building.
1:04:38 Right. So just, you know, imagine a situation where you know, you will have hundreds of millions of nodes and we are in a we would be having a completely different conversation now because we would be put them safe. We wouldn’t be worrying about what would happen with Bitcoin and in quantum And we wouldn’t be worrying about what if this country attacks that country and, you know, destroys this capability that would that lead to a war? Or what if that country gains control over the nuclear codes of the other country?
1:05:20 What would that you know, so on and so forth, so all these risks would go away. This is how I imagine the world under Nourish Protocol. And my objective, our objective is to help everyone through technology by changing some fundamentals. So how do I see the future? I see a world where people are aware of of the risk to themselves and to the environment around them.
1:05:47 I see a world where right now and more and more countries are are taking actionable steps towards their own safety, their own protection, their own sovereignty, which of course will lead to more stability and all of that. I see it backed by a logical backbone that is decentralized, sovereign, agnostic and hyper resilient. Backed by NARS protocol based technology for many use cases. Any use case that is digital needs this approach. This is what I see. I would say that right now, probably the, the future that we enable is a secure is a secure future is a future where countries don’t just compete militarily, but they compete from a perspective of let’s say even unhackability, I would say. And that will lead to a lot more stability. Because if it is very hard for you to do something bad, you’re probably going to be focusing on other things and you’re going to switch from offence to defence.
1:07:01 And right now offence is really easy. It’s, you know, let’s say if if a country attacks another country, let’s say, you know, there’s a rocket or a missile fired at a country by an organization or another country, it’s really hard for that country to put that missile back together and send it back. But if, if I attack with a cyber weapon, you’re a nuclear power station, it’s really easy for me to grab that piece of malware, modify it, make it 10 times worse and send it to you as many times as I want because I don’t have any cost of production. I just do control C, control V, right? So this is the fundamentals that that we’re looking to change. And as we move into Web 4, which is an always on quantum Internet that’s always on trusted Internet with AI by design and default, this needs to be the backbone, right? There is no other way to go about that. And if we don’t do that, now we have all the risks that we mentioned before from Q day to harvest, not the creep later just creeping in on us, and we would be on a boat to obsolescence, which you know, nobody wants to do. Wow, Web 4, you just dropped that on us, David never heard that before and but it makes sense the way you’ve just described it.
1:08:23 That clearly is the future. And the question is, are we going to be ready for it? I guess we are with Naoris. David, how can people follow you? How can they learn more about the token and when it’s going to be issued etcetera? What’s the best way?
1:08:38 So, you know, if someone watching wants to take part in this revolution, you know, we are at the crossroads right now. So, you know, join ours, join us, help us build these, you know, trustable future and, and, and, and trust civilization. So we are currently on our public sales bill now we’re going to be listing soon. You can come to Naoris.com or our social snorrisprotocol.com, our Twitter and you can find ways to participate. Join the community, Join the cybersecurity mesh. Whether you’re an individual or a representative of a company or a government, feel free to reach out to us. We have many programs that will improve the resiliency capabilities and trust of your operations. The future doesn’t belong to, what can I say, risk creators and threat actors.
1:09:38 It belongs to the ones that get together behind a very trusted cybersecurity mesh and and embrace decentralisation. So I would say just join us, follow our socials and check out our, our site, write papers, few reviewed papers, if you’re into that kind of thing. There’s a lot of videos and and podcasts that have been broadcasted both by myself and the David Holtzman, which is our chief of strategy. He used to be the the the the the CEO of IBM Global and he created the DNS protocol for the Internet.
1:10:15 So, you know, very interesting people saying interesting things and much smarter than I am. So just follow them and feel free to join us. It could be a pleasure. David, it’s exciting times and one of the reasons we were intrigued and excited and also just proud to be partners with you is first of all, you’ve been doing this for seven years. Like that’s incredible, almost unheard of in any company in blockchain really. The second was these really high level people you have advising you and on your board and you know, again, like I hadn’t seen NATO generals before, single or plural. And then of course, all your other amazing backers. We know Tim Draper really well, real visionary, really OG in the space.
1:10:59 And the more I talk to you, the more I realize how big a problem it is that you’re solving. And like you said, it’s, it’s imminent. It’s not about if it’s when and that when, like you said, even if there’s a 10% probability it could happen, say next year or a 1%, the value of that is so high that you want to start working on this problem now. And not to mention, like you said, you’re creating attack vectors every single day because this data is being harvest.
1:11:32 And so, look, it’s great to hear that you have a solution to this. Most people are just terrified with the quantum computers. But it’s nice to know that people like you are building this out. And especially for people in the Bitcoin space and all these other things that really get terrified when they think that their asset, which they’ve been told is totally secure, might not be. But then there’s going to be potential. So, yeah, really exciting stuffs. Any final thoughts from you, David? Yeah, I would like to just leave a final statement again for everybody watching.
1:12:08 Feel free to join us. Feel free to join this revolution, take part on it and just participate with us. You know, own a part of the future with us. And if you want to help us do research or be a developer or you know, work with us that’s a partner, etcetera, feel free to reach out to us as well. We have a partner program.
1:12:33 We have a number of very large companies there all the way to very small players. And we accept anybody with interesting ideas to work with us on any sort of vertical because all verticals need this India. So just stay safe, stay secure and stay quantum and we’ll talk next time. Fantastic, thank you so much, David to everybody here follow them on X go to the website and again public sales happening now tge even sooner or right after that and then get involved get your company involved, your bank, your government, because this is going to be so important in the future. Again, we’ve, we’ve personally experienced, you know, how unvalidated data can just change the world and and that’s about to go exponential those threats.
1:13:17 And so it’s great to know that you guys are building solutions to that. So thank you so much David, looking forward to the future and wishing you all the best. Thank you. Pleasure. All right, fantastic. Thanks everybody.
1:13:29 We will see you next time on London Real. Take care.
