Full transcript: Darrel Wijaya on London Real
2:33 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is… This is London Real. I am Brian Rose.
2:44 My guest today is Darrel Wijaya, the entrepreneur, game developer, and blockchain expert. You are the CTO and co-founder of Creo Engine, the revolutionary crypto gaming platform with a focus on innovation, quality, and interoperability that allows players to seamlessly move their assets and items between games. Your main goal is to make Creo Engine the first mover for Indonesia in the web3 gaming industry and to create a secure and transparent ecosystem that benefits both developers and users alike by merging gaming and finance on the blockchain.
3:17 You have said Creo Engine is not just a platform, but a catalyst for economic empowerment, financial literacy, and sustainable growth in Southeast Asia. Darrel, welcome to London Real in Dubai.
3:29 Darrel Wijaya: Thank you for having me. It’s good to be here.
3:32 Brian Rose: Great to have you, man.
3:33 I just want to start by saying that Creo Engine is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures, the world’s first media-powered investment firm where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting-edge web3 and AI companies while giving our partners marketing exposure across the London Real media platforms and academies. We heighten awareness, create customers, and build communities by leveraging our global audience and extensive network. Darrel, we are super excited to be part of this journey with you and the guys at Creo Engine.
4:02 So let’s jump in. Maybe you can start by telling us how did Creo Engine start and where are you guys today?
4:10 Darrel Wijaya: Sure. It’s been a bit of a long story. But essentially, when we started this company, it was just me and Calvin, of course, Xavier, and the three of us sought to try and get into the gaming industry, which I think at the time, web3gaming was unheard of, or rather, it was not as popular as it was in Indonesia.
4:34 And we figured that with the country having a massive mobile gaming populace, we could definitely create a system or a platform where people could access an array of financially beneficial games on a singular platform. And with that, we decided to launch our own token during possibly the worst time to launch a token, which was the bear market. And we pulled through. Amazingly we did. And our platform, its purpose, really, as business founders, really, of course, is to empower people to find a living through gaming.
5:15 A lot of people across the country do not see how they could really monetize their time and their efforts in playing mobile games. But we want to introduce that to them because this is nothing new, Brian. Before web3 ever came to be, people had spent hours working on web2 games to make income. How about doing this through a more secure platform with games that have more leverage and more digital assets to trade around, which I think could really do good for the country because we truly see potential in actually providing a way of life through financial entertainment, which is web3gaming.
5:58 So we banded together. Of course, our partners are experts in their own fields. I myself am an indie game developer by trade. I love indie game development. I sold my car to make my first game. My mother was really mad at me for doing that.
6:14 But our team has an undying passion to really try and bring welfare. Financial welfare is something that I truly am passionate about because if I could empower everyone to try to have an opportunity through, of course, making a living through gaming, I believe that I would be happy to do it because, you know, a lot of people that understand Indonesia is still relatively new in this space. And, you know, we want to be a first mover in that regard and really capture as many people as possible into them believing this vision of a better gaming experience through blockchain technology.
6:56 So that’s how it started. Yes.
6:57 Brian Rose: You know, you mentioned Indonesia where I know you’re from. I know you went to school in the States and then came back and we’ll get into that journey. But, you know, tell us more about Indonesia because I think it’s a country a lot of people don’t understand.
7:10 Yeah. We know it’s a massive country. We know it has tons of natural resources. It’s kind of right in the middle of the ocean there. But I don’t think a lot of people know the details of it, the actual size of the population and the potential impact it will have on Web 3, on gaming, on even the Asian.
7:27 Darrel Wijaya: Oh, yeah. That’s a big right. It’s crazy because everyone just knows this for Bali. Bali is a very popular destination for the Australians and, you know, a beautiful place. It is remarkably good. You know, it’s like the Hawaii of Southeast Asia, if you will. Right.
7:44 But they don’t really see, you know, how big of a country is. The archipelago itself is massive with over 200 million plus people. Right. You know, I dare say that the entire country makes up a massive chunk of mobile game players in Southeast Asia. And the purchasing power is unparalleled. And the country is still fairly young.
8:05 If you think about it, less than a century years old. Right. It’s less than 100 years old. And yet it’s building technology and really introducing talents at great speeds. So you could imagine technological adoption, although behind most countries it will ramp up extremely quickly. Right.
8:25 Especially with the newer politicians coming onto the stage, like, you know, the vice president that’s just been elected, they are really trying to ramp up technological initiatives for the country. So, you know, a lot of people, there’s an information gap in the country. People don’t know tech. They don’t know what to look into. This is why educational courses that deal with technology are so highly sought after.
8:51 Or platforms that empower people to technology are highly sought after. Because people want to make additional income through technology as a whole. So this is why the country has so much potential, Brian. It’s unheard of. With all those people in their mobile devices, you could imagine how much you could do in the next five to ten years.
9:13 Which I think is a godsend because with a country this big and so well-connected in Southeast Asia, and yet the potential has barely even scratched the surface, it’s there. You know, the country, though not as advanced as most countries we see today, but they’re catching up quick, you know, they’re catching up really quickly. Look into it. You know, the statistics don’t lie, right? They say in the next few years, it might become a superpower, you know, because people there work hard.
9:47 They strive to become better. They strive to do anything they can to attain greatness. And, you know, I’m glad to be part of it, really. And I’m glad to try and contribute to my country. Yes.
10:02 Brian Rose: You know, you mentioned the government is quite young. And I know I think you guys have been recently recognized by some areas of the government, members of the government, as one of the leading Web3 gaming platforms of the entire country of Indonesia. You talk about kind of the recognition you’ve gotten from government, which I’m guessing is a very important factor in your growth.
10:23 Darrel Wijaya: It is. The government is, as I said, they’re just really starting to ramp up, you know, the Web3 efforts across the country.
10:30 And they’re actively looking for projects and, you know, partners to really work alongside with, because for them Web3 is relatively new. Some of our partners and close associates work for the government very intimately. And, you know, we’re tasked to basically try and create a platform that is seamless and easy to use, especially for those who do not know anything about Web3 gaming, to try and onboard them to our platforms. This is why I didn’t tell you this, but we’re trying to create WhatsApp wallets, right?
10:56 Wallets using WhatsApp, which, by the way, Indonesians use WhatsApp every day. It’s practically ungodly. How much people are using that app. This is why Facebook made pretty good money from them. We truly see potential in making Web3 gaming easy, easy access, because a lot of people do not want to go through the hurdles of creating a wallet or understanding what crypto is about.
11:21 They just want instant access. So we have to facilitate that through our platform and with the help of the government and, of course, their partners, you know, we could see it happen because they have access to a wide array of networks and educational facilities, which, by the way, we’re in deep talks with. Better yet, you know, if we could then educate the youth to try and understand Web3 better, but also really in line them on how beneficial Web3 is in general, especially in gaming.
11:49 There is a large synergy there because a lot of kids love playing video games. And the funny thing is that, you know, a lot of people that I see in this country, they’re religious and it’s a good thing. You know, they want to try their best to, you know, bring their parents on the pilgrimage to the Hodge, right, which is a great thing. And they would do anything they can to do that. It’s the utmost honor, if you will, for a family to do that, especially, you know, people here are also hard workers.
12:19 So introducing the opportunity to a lot of youths, especially in the Web3 industries, is what the government is trying to do is really trying to see how Web3 could really bolster the workforce and really supplement their income and how they could stand the benefit from it. Right. This is why, as a token, we are regulated by what we call there. It’s the Bapiti, which is basically we are now a legal commodity in the country to be tradable. And we are shooting that for basically this platform we’re creating could, when they become an official, should I say, a mouthpiece for the government to really bring people to the Web3 gaming industries and essentially have them trust us as a platform that’s vetted by, of course, the government and, of course, foreign entities and foreign people that give us credibility.
13:14 Right. And we truly want to bring foreign games to our platform to really, you know, bring fun. The same time, you know, the government also wants us to create high quality games that are fun and riveting for the Indonesian populace, because again, it goes hand in hand. We are a game studio. We are, of course, a Web3 company as well. And we want to cater to both segments of the industry effectively.
13:42 That is, you know, the gamers and, of course, the hustlers and the business people that want to try to make income. But yeah, the government is really trying to get that going with us. And, you know, we’re more than happy to work with them because, you know, they have been invaluable in letting us execute our mission.
13:59 Brian Rose: You know, it makes me laugh because it sounds like you guys are further ahead in the United States, you know, where our SEC chairman currently is, you know, trying to call some of these token securities.
14:09 It’s a beautiful and refreshing thing to hear. The government is saying, no, these things are commodities and we’re regulating them and approving them. I mean, that’s going to be massive.
14:20 Darrel Wijaya: It is massive. It’s beautiful because, you know, I noticed that our government, you know, they’re strong, but they’re also adaptive.
14:28 They love new trends. And, you know, they see crypto as an opportunity for enrichment rather than, of course, the other way around. And this is why, you know, this is a bit of a big, I’ll probably cut this out, but, you know, the United States as a whole, they’re very peculiar with the U.S. dollars. So I don’t really blame them for that. But, you know, it is what it is. And this is why, you know, in general, the government Indonesia, they’re really pro innovation.
14:54 Right. Which is why the Nvidia actually made an A.I. center. They’re investing about a quarter of a billion dollars on this center in solo, which is a little island, a little state in the Java regions. So there is bound to be a lot of technologically ingrained youths coming out of the woodwork in the next decade, which I think is remarkable.
15:14 Brian Rose: Now, crypto adoption as a populace is fairly high in Indonesia. Would that be right?
15:19 Darrel Wijaya: And that’s the thing you see. So crypto adoption has not yet begun effectively. There are people that are adopting crypto at great speeds.
15:28 But a lot of people are just starting to know what it is. A lot of mothers, children, the youths, they’re just starting to scratch the surface of what crypto really is. So this is where, you know, we could come in as a company to tell them that, hey, check out Web through Gaming. It’s easy to use. You can make twenty dollars a week, thirty dollars a week.
15:52 You can sell assets for a good chunk of money to would be buyers or sellers, you know. And that creates an interesting interaction between the new adopters, because now you could potentially say they could create, you know, new jobs. Right. And hopefully one day, crypto as a whole, especially with our platform where entities, commodity, financial assets, collateralization could happen. So now people that live in remote villages across the country that have access to this in such easy form and function, you could say they would be empowered.
16:32 And that is what I want to give them. And of course, that’s what they want in the end. Now, what’s happening right now in Indonesia, I could probably say this to you just to enlighten you, is that there’s no scene where people are just gambling meme coins, which is natural, you know. But it just shows how keen they are and really learning about the industry and the opportunities it brings to them. So in a way, you know, I really see a gap here.
17:01 I could come in as a company and offer stable options to make income through web through practices, especially in gaming. Instead of you actually gambling your money away on meme coins or on trade tips from scammers or influencers, so-called influencers. Why not go to a government vetted platform that’s regulated and secure that offers you reassurance, if you will, as a user that you’re fine, right? And to do it web through gaming, it’s amazing because imagine that were to happen.
17:31 I could then bring in all these products overseas to us and really create a melting pot of beautiful products and opportunities for the people of Indonesia, potentially as this gets bigger, Southeast Asia and beyond. But yeah, crypto adoption in this country, it’s just starting to start. It’s emerging at breakneck speeds.
17:50 Brian Rose: You know, one thing you keep talking about is mobile and you mentioned the WhatsApp adoption, et cetera. And it sounds like Indonesia is a very mobile country, whereas maybe you go to other regions in Southeast Asia or in the world, people oftentimes will have a laptop or a desktop.
18:07 But here it sounds like that is the device they use, which is interesting because it’s an amazing opportunity. It also means that you need to customize the user experience and design precisely for mobile. Yes. Right.
18:21 Darrel Wijaya: Here’s the thing. A lot of these kids that live in remote villages, their internet is from their mobile phones or hotspots.
18:29 They live and die by hotspot internet. It’s funny. It’s actually hilarious. So a lot of islands and oxygen goes and not a lot of infrastructure is possible. So they rely on their phones for internet. And that’s why packages at home are just $2 for like 30 gigabytes, which is a good deal for most people.
18:45 So, you know, you can imagine that their phone is the gateway to a lot of things, which I think is remarkable. So, you know, being mobile centric as a company is important. I can’t stress this enough, you know, as a founder, the customer journey is everything. Right. A lot of crypto projects that enter this industry under us to make customer journey.
19:07 They just say a lot of fancy jargon, which I’m sure you’ve heard a million times, Brian, but they lack fundamentals. Customer journey is everything. I have a customer journey guy in my company, and he is going through a lot of hurdles to start, you know, Darrel, how do I do this? How do I do that? You’ve got to work together in new innovative ways to bring people to use the platform effectively.
19:30 So, yeah, if I could master customer journey, which we’re getting closer to, by the way, with WhatsApp, onboarding people with a three step process is easy. Right. Better yet, once the platform, which is, by the way, it’s done, once it’s done and it is done, launching educational content that is easy to use, easy to understand is the key to. People will understand the potential of a web three ecosystem and will be able to find ways to make income there.
20:05 And by the way, NFT assets are legacy assets. They’re digital commodities that you could keep. Again, they’ll have portfolios, digital goods that they could actually sell and leverage and empower themselves with. All through an easy to use platform with good customer journey metrics, good customer journey systems. So, yeah, mobile centric is the key.
20:26 Brian Rose: You know, customer journey is fascinating because it’s so important. And yet if you look at Web three, it’s so neglected. I bumped into somebody at the conference and they said, what’s the worst performing sector in Web three? He said, it’s DeFi, not because it’s not needed, not because it’s not crucial, because it’s so hard to use. Confusing.
20:46 And he said, he said, I’m confused with DeFi and I’ve been in this space for five years is what he said. And he made a good point. And and it’s so true. It’s so important, but it’s still so hard to use. And so the journey, especially on mobile, is not an easy thing to do.
21:01 If you can do that and be two, two clicks away from what they want, you can use or what they want and be able to integrate it with something they use every day, which is like WhatsApp, which I guess is kind of as the ween-chat for your telegram and telegram. Perfect. And there’s a lot of things being built inside telegram and yeah, you’re on for a winner. And if you understand your audience of Indonesia and you’re building for them, this is why I was impressed with your team right away, is then because you’re native to Indonesia.
21:29 You understand the population. You already, you know, working with the government and you’re trying to to solve kind of we call it a micro niche, although it’s not very micro because you have two hundred million people. But you’re developing for your people. You understand their language, their habits, their needs and their desires. And if you master that, that population alone is enough to make you guys a deca unicorn, probably.
21:52 Amen. And then you can expand because ultimately the rest of the world also uses.
21:56 Darrel Wijaya: Yeah, yeah. And that’s, you know, that’s why a lot of projects, you know, there was actually this convention, let me tell you a story. This convention that that was in this university, foreign companies attended those conventions by the university students and they talked about all these fancy jargons, these complicated mechanisms of tokens, fairly large marketplaces. I don’t know.
22:17 Plenty of these things. These kids are like, what am I listening to? I don’t understand a thing. It’s crazy. I was there and I realized that kid next to me is just dozing off. He’s like, he doesn’t get it.
22:29 He’s probably just here to find out how to make twenty dollars or fifty dollars extra, which goes a long way to Indonesia. So again, you’re right. Creating that perfect journey, that customer adoption journey. When that happens and it will happen, the potential is the sky’s the limit. Right.
22:48 Brian Rose: You know, Creo engine, from what I understand, it’s not a game. It’s really the platform that you want to build games on and then allow other people to build games. Yeah. And again, you guys are thinking sky’s the limit. So you’re thinking this becomes a tool for financial education.
23:04 Again, if other people want to create games on your platform and they could go all the way. So I was wondering if you could tell us what are the challenges in building a platform as opposed to just building one game. And kind of how have you designed that to scale? Because it feels like that’s kind of your intention.
23:23 Darrel Wijaya: You know, the biggest challenge for building a game, first of all, is the creator bias.
23:28 You could be a creator of a game and you can have a big bias towards your creation, thinking people will like it. And you will push it forward because of your conviction and it just ends up you’re done. Right. Because you don’t get the metrics. When I started this company, you know, I was all into product.
23:46 It was foolish of me at first. Granted, you know, I learn and grow. When you realize when you create a company, the metrics matter the most. So the biggest challenge is really identifying metrics. If you create a platform, every box, every button, every concept of a platform must be geared towards fulfilling a metric, a conversion, your funnels, your marketing, your ad campaigns, are they tailored effectively to your platform?
24:16 If you don’t identify those metrics, you’re just throwing money at Facebook, Google, throwing money at the wall. Metrics are essential. It’s the drawing board. Right. We actually, you know, when we create the CreoPlay platform, which is the platform in and of itself, we actually redesigned it twice because we had to identify the metrics. Right.
24:40 And we come to realization that a lot of people, when you talk to them about earning money with games in Web3, they’re like, what’s Web3? What’s a wallet? So opinions, data, perception of your users is essential. You boil that down into key metrics and you could really organize in the platform and you execute. You could run surveys. Sure, rewarded surveys are great. Don’t get me wrong.
25:10 But the bottom line is this. Are your bottom line users able to adapt and use your tech? And that can only be done through trial and error. Right. You could be a genius product manager or a genius product creator, a genius idealist.
25:24 But if you do not know the customer, you’re dead. This is why focus groups exist, but, you know, they’re kind of a rated. And this is why applications at home are so easy to use. There is a mobile banking app called BCA, which is basically the Bank Central Asia. Their app is just three buttons, big chunky buttons.
25:47 It’s too easy to use. Even a toddler could use it and they are the biggest bank in the entire country. That’s customer journey. Then you have Biden’s futures, which is a clutter of buttons and, you know, the average kid is scared. And that’s why they buy courses.
26:04 There’s a course right now in the country that sells for a thousand dollars a pop. And a lot of victims of the courses are like, you know, it’s kind of depressing. But, you know, people need to be educated into using those applications, which is a good opportunity to make money. Don’t get me wrong, but they should not be educated. They should just be intuitive.
26:24 Intuitive applications is tough to make. It takes trial and error and it takes time. This is why Steve Jobs, he was heckled by this one guy on a speech. He said, for the past seven years, what have you been doing with Apple? He says, you’re right.
26:40 I don’t know much because I have to focus on the customer journey. How can they use my tech? I’m obsessed about it. It takes time. I could hire the best engineers, but without proper vision or proper allocation of, you know, of what you’re going to do with your app or your tech, you’re dead.
26:56 You agree with me, don’t you, on this department? This is why you’re really obsessed about two things right now when you create a company. The tech and, of course, the customer, which I’m right obsessed about the customers.
27:09 Brian Rose: So, yeah. How is it that of so many founders and entrepreneurs, they forget about the customer?
27:15 Darrel Wijaya: I know it sounds ridiculous.
27:17 Brian Rose: I know. I mean, in Binance, great example. You know, I got to spend some time with CZ last year. They’ve been so successful.
27:23 And yet most people agree that that platform is very hard to negotiate, even if you’re a somewhat experienced person in Web3. Yeah, yeah. It’s just it doesn’t seem like it was designed by you.
27:37 Darrel Wijaya: Yeah. Binance is a massive company.
27:39 They have great people on board, the smartest people that know how to relate to people. And that’s a thing. Their platform is complex but in depth. They have their own proprietary systems that are remarkable, but they have excellent educators on their platform, excellent. They’re flawless.
27:55 They know how to capture people’s attention with great finesse. And that’s just true. Now CZ is creating their little, it’s this Giggle Academy, right? It’s coming up pretty soon. And he believes in education, which it’s good.
28:09 I love education. It’s a noble thing. But you know, you can have the most complex platform, but be prepared to have the best people on board to tell your story, tell your how you use your platform. Yeah. Entrepreneurs forget about their customers because, again, they’re biased, right?
28:25 They’re biased about their product. This is a good question about why I come near them, which I think I’ve heard a lot. Why should your product exist now? Why not in five years? Allow them to be able to answer that.
28:38 Because trends are seasonal. Trends come and go. Your product is good maybe in five years’ time. Why now? Why now?
28:47 Right? Why not five years later? Why create the next Facebook? Just use Facebook. I know Facebook’s dying, but you should…
28:55 Do you want to really create another Facebook? Oh, yeah, because, you know, there are old people. I don’t care. The metrics don’t add up. Right.
29:03 That’s the thing. Right. Yeah. You got to follow those metrics. Do you?
29:08 Yeah, yeah. It’s tough. Yeah. It’s hard because great entrepreneurs start with, you know, a strong ego, a vision of belief, otherwise they don’t get started. That’s right.
29:17 Brian Rose: But Jobs had all those you could argue, but he also knew their customer was king. Customer was king. And then if you don’t satisfy that person… It’s over. And again, he had a bunch of…
29:26 He had a bunch of failures in his career as well.
29:29 Brian Rose: A bunch, yeah. And yeah, I’m wondering what he would be thinking now if he knew how valuable that company was. You mentioned you guys released your token in a bear market. Yeah.
29:40 And that was a strong move. One, I’m guessing a lot of people told you not to do. But now when we look back, your token has performed like in an incredible way. And the crazy thing is, is it’s probably just getting started. Talk to me about that decision and then how it’s just had, you know, some massive, you know, in the last six months, especially in 24.
30:03 Darrel Wijaya: We made this project when the bull run was near its end cycle. And we took a gamble that we, of course, lost that it will go on for a few months. So we were raising like maniacs to, you know, get the token out there as fast as possible. And of course, at the end of the day, the bear market happened and, you know, launch pads were very desperate to make money back. And, you know, we ended up fighting for the prices by so we can and making a mistake there.
30:31 At hindsight, it was a mistake, sure. But if we had not launched our token, we would have not learned how to manage it, how to manage it. A lot of founders that launch their own token do not underestimate how tough it is to match a token. In the other room, Xavier is there with, you know, he’s probably up there at 4 a.m. with Calvin and my friends just talking to people, you know, market makers on pricing it.
30:58 It is astronomically difficult. We, with our own hard work and with our luck, with our connections, have built this from the ground up. And we did get lucky. Yes, we did. But we carried the momentum at just the right time.
31:15 I want to go higher than this, but I need more. I need capital is one thing, sure. Technique and positioning is another thing entirely. The bull market right now, I don’t know how it’s going to go. There’s going to be a crash maybe tomorrow because the halping will happen, which is kind of ironic, you know.
31:32 I only hope that with our experience in going through the crap we’ve been through the past few years, we would weather the storm with great efficiency. A lot of founders will die when the market gets red. I’m just being realistic. Ironically, our competitors in Indonesia, they fade to obscurity because they don’t know the importance of integrity in managing the token. But if I were to be honest, imagining a token is really all about really all about integrity.
32:05 Really all prioritizing your customers at best, right? And a token is no easy feat to manage. You can have the best exchanges on board. OKX, HTX, all these exchanges on board. You can still die.
32:18 You have to be relentless. No more hand-holding. Just hard work and sleepless nights. Just a lot of hard work. I don’t know how to say it.
32:27 They just don’t understand. It’s like taking care of a child, a baby. He cries at night. You wake up. You eat milk.
32:34 That’s a token. It is an organism, a child, tantrums, temper tantrums, volatility. It’s not easy. It’s brutal.
32:43 Brian Rose: You know, I had Gaurav Dubey from TDFI in that chair a couple months ago.
32:49 And he’s been, you know, helping companies, incubating and working with tokens and tokenomics. And he basically said it’s nearly an impossible task. Yes. For it. Well, he said even for an entrepreneur to create a successful company is nearly impossible, let alone a token, which is a whole basically that all over it.
33:10 Yeah. And he says the reason he even exists at TDFI is because there’s very few founders that can do all of that. It’s almost like you need an education in finance, but you also need an education in tokenomics and then market making, which no one’s ever done before. And you got to run your company and develop products. He said it’s nearly impossible.
33:30 That is tough. And he said a lot of companies fail, not because they’re not great ideas, but because they can’t manage a token. They cannot. They don’t have the energy. They don’t have the stamina.
33:41 Darrel Wijaya: Right. We were going through a lot of stumps. Don’t get me wrong. We were going through a lot of stuff and we were we were close to actually, you know what, this is tough. I’m going to throw in the towel.
33:51 But our resilience. So we’re letting this carry us through because we truly believe this is a major opportunity. We need stamina. You need meticulous care of your token. You’re running two things at once.
34:04 You’re running a company, your employees, your shareholder value. You’re running a token. Your holders, anonymous holders from Russia, Ukraine, whatever. A lot of things are happening all at once. You have to be on point.
34:14 You have to be alive, stay fresh. You know, this is why I love sleep. I enjoy sleep. I, I preferably sleep more than they do, you know, but, you know, I, I’m sorry if I do, but it’s not easy. You have to have a vicious team of fighters.
34:34 Brian Rose: Speaking of the team, where is Creo Play, Creo Engine right now? How many games are on this platform? And what are you expecting to accomplish, say, by the end of the year and the next eight months?
34:45 Darrel Wijaya: You know, here’s my plan. Creo Engine is the token.
34:48 It is the face of the company. We call it an engine for two reasons. We want to be an engine for change. And Creo basically means belief. The belief of change.
34:58 The belief of progress. The belief of creation. It’s very similar. I love those play on words. I call it Creo Engine because I want to be a driving force of empowerment through welfare in Indonesia.
35:13 Creo Play is our platform which hosts all these games, and we do have about 30 games or so on board the platform. And we barely have any marketing on that platform because we’re trying for that right moment, that right precise moment. And our partners on that platform have been really generous to us in letting them play our games and letting us play their games. And honestly, it is very nice to see them collaborate with us. In a year’s time, what I really want to accomplish is really to educate people.
35:40 When the platform is done, creating a strong educational push with good content that will enlighten them in how potentially useful this can be for them. That’s what I want this year. This is why, you know, I happen to know someone who knows a lot of universities across the country, right? Gaming and education go hand in hand. I want to be the first to capture that market with Creo Engine as the face of it.
36:05 Better yet, when that educational content could bring benefits and it’s proven, funneling testimonies across the board and proving to people that it works, that’s going to create a positive feedback loop, which is when I want to get them this year. And of course, ensuring the token this year goes to a good place. I want to submit Creo as perhaps the biggest and strongest project in the country. Amen to that. Because when that’s done, the credibility will go through the roof.
36:36 Yeah, it’s going to be good for us.
36:38 Brian Rose: Yeah, and yeah, guys, I think you can see it in your sights, and that’s a beautiful thing. Yeah, it’s right there, and all you view is execute, and it will be that project, which is super exciting. Now, you talk about education. You know, what I do is ultimately education.
36:53 You know, for 13 years, I’m putting out content. I’ve been teaching in my academy, and it’s a very hard thing to do, is digital education. I think nobody’s really mastered it yet, and yet we know it’s going to be the future, and especially for Web 3 and for financial education. You know, one of my good friends is Yahtzee of Animal Brands, and he’s a big fan of education. They have their EDU token now, their open campus platform, and the things they’re doing, but he also believes, like you do, that gaming is the way in.
37:26 You know, it’s really that gateway drug that keep people interested, and then once you have some tokens on your GameFi thing, then you’re kind of now introduced to the Fi side of it, now what am I going to do with them financially? It’s such an exciting way, because quite frankly, I think most people have failed to get education digitized directly. You know, there’s this one guy that’s doing it really well,
37:51 Darrel Wijaya: and you have to sell a lifestyle. Just hear me out here.
37:54 A lifestyle of stability, that is your hook to people in understanding why should I buy your educational programs? Why should I even spend time with you on the educational programs? You have to walk the talk. Educational programs can only work if you embody the success of what it brings. Without it, you agree with me, it’s over.
38:18 A lot of people that sell courses online, they rent Lamborghinis, they rent penthouses. It’s an investment because they want to emulate that success for what you can get. They’re all scams, they’re going to be wrong. Not all of them are scams, but the majority of them try to exaggerate. But what I’m trying to bring is literal, because it’s a brand new platform.
38:40 It hasn’t been done before. Why not create educational programs that work, and why not connect it to Creo or potentially other games on the platform? So that not only can you attract the Web2 buyers that pay fiat, you can then attract the Web2 buyers that understand the potential of it, that want to really reeducate themselves on how they use Creo Play. To master education, you really have to have good personal branding and really walk the talk, but also remembering to emulate a lifestyle that you want your customers to have, which is the number one thing.
39:17 But yeah, that’s how you do it.
39:19 Brian Rose: Where do you think this market’s going? You were talking about a little bit. You know, a lot of people are predicting 12 months of a bull market. What do you think it goes?
39:28 How big does it go? What kind of things change? What kind of things happen? Are we going to see, you know, a billion new users on board? It’d be a game.
39:35 Darrel Wijaya: In my opinion, my personal opinion, when the hell of thing happens, there’ll be a large price where there’ll probably be a conflict between sellers and buyers. When it all dies down, there will be a question of should I adopt Bitcoin? The halving happens. There’ll be another marketing push-up, whether or not there’ll be more halvings in the future, and this will probably entice the newer players to come on board. When that happens, they’ll look for many opportunities to make income, and there’ll be an all-coin season likely that will happen after that crash.
40:05 And when that happens, people will start being, you know, open to all these other opportunities, especially in Southeast Asia, where, you know, they’re just learning about it. So coming in at that time and telling them about the possibilities of gaming being a potential way of living is the plan. So the market as a whole will go through a growing pain, but some countries will emerge stronger alongside it. It’ll be a bloodbath. I mean, it is already a bloodbath, and people got liquidated too, like a week ago, and it’s pretty depressing, but, you know, it will happen.
40:41 Adoption will happen once they understand how the markets work, once they understand, you know, moving parts, at least on a macro sense. That’s when I’ll see a lot of people asking questions. How could I make additional income in this industry? Why can I? I could use this company back by the government.
41:00 I could try it out. Why not? Make a wallet with WhatsApp, you know, make $10 a week. Doesn’t hurt. So that first moving aspect is essential, especially after the howling.
41:14 Brian Rose: Yeah, you’re right. And then that’s when the alt season comes. You know, Play to Earn was something that changed lives in, say, countries like the Philippines, and it was a big deal, and then it quieted down, but for you, it’s going to be a huge value add for the citizens of Indonesia. Yeah. And so that’s something you’re focusing on.
41:32 Darrel Wijaya: Yeah. But not just that, but Play to Earn in the Philippines was big because they were a first mover everywhere inside this Asia. I want to introduce a product or a system that works in both markets. That would be the ideal dream. Right.
41:50 So values created only if people understand, if people band together and start moving in a certain, they congregate together. Your watch, your water, your food has value because of the farmers that worked on it. Right. Costs of labor, demand for housing, everything is tied together like a domino. I want to create an ecosystem that kind of creates value there, like a gaming platform where value hopefully could be untethered to the market sentiment in crypto because of the games they play and how popular a game is and how active a game is.
42:28 So when that happens, people start fighting opportunities regardless of market conditions. And that’s where I think Creo, I would hope Creo would go that direction. Now, for the Philippines, you know, they did take advantage of it, which is great. You should. Right.
42:46 But when it kind of died down, you know, they got scared of it. So hopefully I could change that stigmata about what they’re gaming inside these Asia.
42:55 Brian Rose: What is your biggest challenge for the next 12 months? Because challenge the next 12 months.
43:00 Darrel Wijaya: Finding like minded people, you know, to bring this vision to life, you have to have people that understand your passion.
43:07 They understand what you’re trying to really convey in a company. People that do not understand your vision, they’ll just work for you for money. Right. And they’re going to drag you down. You need to have good people at your side at all times.
43:24 This is why with good people, you have good product. Good product means good conversions, good money. Talent is one thing, but vision is another thing entirely, which most people unfortunately lack. I need good people.
43:37 Brian Rose: Is your team all in Indonesia?
43:39 Darrel Wijaya: All in Indonesia. We’re locally based. And you’re going to keep it that way. Keep it that way, yes. Okay.
43:45 Brian Rose: I like that, man. I like that a lot. A lot of people might recognize that you have an accent that I’m another country. And I’m wondering if you could talk about the time you spent away from Indonesia before you came back and what you brought back with you. What did you learn when you were abroad and how has it helped in making Korea such a success?
44:08 Darrel Wijaya: What I learned from abroad was the Americans, they worked so hard. I don’t know. The people I met there, they work very hard. They have big dreams and they are positive. A great sense of optimism that is refreshing.
44:29 You need to be optimistic as an entrepreneur to get things done. And you need to work hard. I believe in manifestation. I think you do kind of believe in that too. Optimism is a big thing when it comes to business, right?
44:40 But pessimism is also healthy too in some regard. Americans are overly optimistic but really pessimistic, right? Which I think at the same time is why they take so much risk. They’re risk takers. I admire the Americans for their optimism more than anything.
44:55 And I admire their creativity because of that optimism itself, right? Which I think is an invaluable asset for a person to have, is healthy optimism. Sure, business acumen, creative ideas is nothing entirely but having optimism and the ability to execute your ideas with great optimism is key. And I admire the Americans for that over everything.
45:17 Brian Rose: You went for university there for four years?
45:20 Yeah.
45:20 Brian Rose: How was your time in America like and how did you get from Indonesia to America because it’s not easy?
45:26 Darrel Wijaya: You know, ever since I was a kid most of my teachers were white. So, you know, I kind of felt like, you know, I want to go to America. I want to explore their culture, what the people are like, and frankly, I envy them.
45:37 You know, they have so much access to great resources. And you kind of wonder, you know, do you take it for granted? Right. So I went there because I really want to explore their mindsets, their way of life. So sorry.
45:51 And I think it’s a great thing. It’s a wonderful thing. So in essence, I really believe that, you know, growing up in Indonesia, we are so controlled by our superiors. There’s always a sense of hierarchy. In America, ironically, it’s freedom of speech, freedom of hierarchy, which allows that optimism, that key optimism, that key spice to build great things, which I think countries in Asia kind of lack.
46:24 So I want to go to America to explore that. And I found it there. You did? I did. You found what you were looking for.
46:32 Yes. Optimism. And of course, great company that share, you know, who I am. And my accent, of course, I watch Disney Channel a lot. I loved Disney Channel when I was a kid.
46:42 So I kind of grew up with that and, you know, here I am.
46:45 Brian Rose: Where did you go to school when you were there for like four years and what did you study?
46:49 Darrel Wijaya: I went to a school called Biola University. It’s a small Christian college. Great people there.
46:54 I’m a Christian, by the way. Where is it? And I believe it’s in La Mirada, California. Okay. It’s a pretty great place to go.
47:01 You know, the food’s great. You know, people are there so cozy. But despite it being a Christian school, people there are so optimistic, maybe because of their faith, but also because of their view on life. Right? Partly both.
47:15 But at the end of the day, it has a good school. I like it there. It’s nice.
47:20 Brian Rose: Did you ever think about stain or was it always a plan to come home and build something?
47:26 Darrel Wijaya: You know, going home was a choice because opportunities there were ripe in Indonesia.
47:31 In America, it’s heavily competitive and this is why a lot of people have a lot of optimism, because they believe they could tackle the monster called America, the business capital, the business capital, king of the world, right? It’s competitive. So I went back home to try and pursue other things in a more, you know, realistic sense. Yes. Nice.
47:53 Brian Rose: Trends in the market right now, we’re seeing explosions in meme coins. We’re seeing NFTs, at least on Ethereum, kind of go down even further in price. We’re seeing, you know, ordinals, which are kind of like NFTs on the Bitcoin blockchain, and now runes starting to go back up. I’m curious, what do you think is the trend of that? Do you think these things, I personally think these things express culture in humans.
48:20 I think they’re here to stay. But gaming also has a culture element. So I’m just curious, when you look at these trends, what you think of them, and then how these might play into Creole in the future.
48:34 Darrel Wijaya: Meme coins in general, the entire industry is built on storytelling. Culture is just an integral element to storytelling, which changes by perception.
48:45 People buy coins based on what’s happening online, not because of their value. No matter what coin you buy in the market, it’s all about the story behind it, right? You’re making a gamble, an educated guess, based on what the founder’s pedigree is and what they’re trying to do. So coin prices are mainly influenced by those two things, right? If a company then fulfills that narrative, then they just explode, right?
49:14 Binance, for example, wanted to be a discounted Ethereum a long time ago, and CZ did that pretty well. But when they started getting bigger and bigger and bigger, they started executing more things at once, they became so big, and popular, they exploded. Narrative is one thing, but having that magnum opus or magnus opus, I don’t know what to call it, is that other factor, which will drastically improve a project’s utility and perception to users. And that’s when you have buyers speculating and trading nonstop.
49:42 Once you have that happen, you win. You have loyal traders buying your tokens based on every word you say because you’re successful and you’re done. You win. So when you tweet on Twitter, you move the price. When you talk to people, you move the price.
50:02 That is an indication of victory. So how will Creo come to this, right? Once you’ve created educational content and a platform that works, new advancements, new products, new tools will then influence the price and cost speculation. And that’s when people will start trading our tokens to make income based on that alone. And our users that use our token will buy tokens not because they’re just willing to make money, no.
50:29 They need our tokens to work our platform. Really, I do think that narrative is a good thing. Don’t get me wrong. But utility and, of course, viability of a token is another big thing entirely, which is important, right? If your token is just a story, stories have an end, and they come to an end.
50:50 If your token is utilized across several products for various reasons, you will have endless opportunities for growth as a company, as a project. So culture is great. But culture changes. You need to have something that works. It’s imperative.
51:10 Brian Rose: Take me forward 10 years from now, so 2034. I’m going to be old. You’re going to be a little old. I don’t know. What would you think, or what would you like Creo engines to look like?
51:22 What would you think the Web3 Market looks like, and then even Indonesia as a whole looks like?
51:28 Darrel Wijaya: My prediction in 10 years? We will be ingrained with many popular interfaces across the world. People that use us could have access to various products that exist in various different popular interfaces, right? We will be a focal point for access, which is important, right?
51:46 Especially now that we’re going to store assets in our platform eventually. We could then actually have people, you know, use our platform to showcase their assets to banks or to people to trade things, to trade for tangible goods eventually. You never know, right? Our main goal is accessibility and flexibility as a company. In 10 years, I simply want people to have easy access, no brainer access to the Web3 gaming industry through one platform, vetted and supported and regulated by the government, right?
52:24 On their mobile devices. So even the average child could then just pick up their OPPO phones, the Android devices, and just start playing and earning $1, $2, you know, here and there through various products below us, right? So then now people look to us and they’ll go to us for that exposure, for that metrics, because companies will now be raising funds based on user downloads and metrics. They could go to us for that. I could aggregate companies for growth.
52:54 And when that happens, the sky’s the limit. We will then absorb and consume products and incubate them and take care of them, grow them with our ecosystem, hire a large team to go out across the world to share the good news of how viable our market is. And they’ll come to us and they’ll become stronger and ever. And then when that happens, you know, the token will be widely used for, you know, launch pads, ecosystem uses fees, even a Dow that you could probably have developers hook themselves up with, you know, so be so much speculation.
53:31 People start trading like it’s their life depending on it, which is what I want in 10 years, maybe five. Amen.
53:39 Brian Rose: Do you think it’ll be like a big telco in Indonesia, like Creo, and you’ll see like the logo everywhere?
53:46 Darrel Wijaya: I wear an integral part of the infrastructure of Indonesia. I would love for people to adapt to it three and for us to be the one, to be the face of it.
53:56 If that means working with, of course, the bigger giants, I’d be more than happy to, because I believe growth is a shared thing, right? So we could work with bigger companies to make it happen quicker. I would do it, right? Because it is the future, especially, you know, if it were to tell themselves, which is basically the largest telecommunications company in the country, and they see us as a way of access to, you know, users in Web 3 and maybe foreign users across Southeast Asia, why not, right?
54:24 Imagine now you could practically play a game and just pay your bills with it. That would be nice. And it’s not far fetched with companies that we know and systems that we’re making. It’s easy. This is why in 10 years’ time, I would hope to be the face of it, but I just want my customers to be happy.
54:43 If I could be known as Darrel Wijaya, the inventor or Darrel Wijaya, the propagator of change or whatever, those are pretty big titles. I just want to be known as, you know, the guy that tried to make Web 3 a thing. A Web 3, a Web 3 entrepreneur, a Web 3 advocate. I just want to be known as a guy that tried to bring welfare through blockchain. That’s it.
55:05 And if I could do that in 10 years, I’m happy. So, yeah.
55:08 Brian Rose: A lot of times I’ll ask a question of the advice you would give. And I guess for this time, I’m going to ask specifically, what advice do you give to the 20-year-old Indonesian out there that’s maybe watching us or listening to us? And when they think to themselves, like, what am I going to do in the future?
55:26 You know, maybe they haven’t had much financial education. Maybe they haven’t had much education. They use their WhatsApp. But maybe they don’t really know much about this world. And maybe they’re resistant to explore it because it feels complicated.
55:38 Maybe they feel like they’re not smart enough to learn about finance or not smart enough to get into these games. And, you know, I’m just curious, what advice would you give to them as far as things they should do with their life? Because it sounds like the technology aspect is a part of their future. But what would you say? You know these people.
55:58 Maybe they’re family members.
56:01 Darrel Wijaya: What I would say, you know, is be adaptive. Do not be traditional. Traditionalism is a great thing. But for money and wealth and welfare and, you know, value of life and quality of life, tradition is a hindrance.
56:20 You agree with me on that department, right? Tradition is a hindrance. We need to adapt newer trends to be better and to be faster as people. My advice to Indonesians, you know, watching this, is I beg you, please learn about these technologies. It will change your life.
56:40 It will be good for you. These are technologies that are there for a reason because they have new opportunities that are fresh. There’ll be newer systems, newer platforms, newer advocates in place that will add more variance to this industry. But I implore you to learn, and of course, to, you know, to really grow and to really learn how valuable this is. And most of all, please, don’t be traditional.
57:11 Be modern. Embrace newer trends and look ahead. Do not just look in your circle. Do not just take life laying down. If life’s not good, if life is not how you want it to be, you have to make changes.
57:24 You have to take action. A lot of people back home are, there’s this thing called yoas. It means I’ll take life as it is, the bitter and the sweet and the sour. You can’t do that. That’s why Americans, you know, I like their optimism.
57:41 If life’s not good, they’ll fight to the death to change it. And I want to see that too for my fellow Indonesians. I want them to fight for a better life. If I could bring that access to them for them to do that, I would. I’d love to.
57:55 Brian Rose: Love that man. Love that vision. If people want to start playing on Creo, if they want to learn more about you guys, what is the best way to start? Look into your token, whatever. What’s the best way for them to do that?
58:07 Darrel Wijaya: You know, if you want to try our platform, try it every more nights. That game is in running. People are making money from that game. You know, people are making good money from that game, actually. Go to Google Play.
58:17 It’s on there. It’s easy to access. Just download it and play it. And you could earn Creo. Just play it.
58:22 And you’ll regret it. Try it out. Everymorenights.com. Give it a shot. Boom.
58:28 Brian Rose: Okay, good. They can go to your website as well. Follow you on Twitter.
58:31 Darrel Wijaya: Yeah, follow me on Twitter. You know, follow Creo Engine.
58:33 You know, follow my Twitter if you want to. I have Instagram. You know, Daryl Wijaya. It’s all there. You know, follow our peripherals and just play our games.
58:41 And we are launching a new game called Arcade Fest coming out pretty soon. And, you know, that’s going to have a lot of mini games in there. That’s going to be really fun. Play it out. Enjoy it.
58:50 You know, and earn, right? But most of all, just play our product. Get to know it. And, you know, give us feedback because your feedback is essential to us. All right.
58:59 So try us out. Play our game. Play our game.
59:02 Brian Rose: Love it, man. Final thoughts just about the future, about the industry or anything I didn’t cover.
59:10 But yeah, any just final thoughts for people out there as far as, you know, what they should do and what the future might be in this Web 3 world.
59:19 Darrel Wijaya: Again, Web 3 is where, you know, we get to own part of the platform. Yeah. You know, we get to win when the platform wins. And that’s such a beautiful concept.
59:29 The concept of Web 3 is freedom. It’s all about freedom. It’s all about owning data. Now, data is one thing. People could care less about data.
59:40 What you care about is how you could find opportunities in leveraging data as maybe an owner of that data or, you know, a potential businessman in the future that will utilize that data. So my final thoughts of where this industry will go is how can data, how can the integrity of data change people’s lives? How can they make their lives better? Health, for example, your data is owned by doctors. They could tell you all sorts of things, but creating a decentralized data bank for health and, you know, creating AIs that could tell you accurate diagnosis based on that data alone is good enough.
1:00:20 It gives you freedom of choice. You do not want to be constrained by corporates that will control you everywhere, right? Which, by the way, corporations do that subconsciously with your food, your data and what you wear, right? But blockchain really is another sector where you could explore and really embrace the idea that you’re in control. Everything you do has consequence and it’s because of you, right?
1:00:49 Your actions are more meaningful than ever in the blockchain. So make it count. At the same time, your objectives that you’ll fulfill in the blockchain will have more meaning, will have more value to you as a person. But for now, you know, in this industry, just take advantage of it, live it, love it, and learn about it. Because one day as time goes on, the blockchain industry as a whole will evolve as something quintessential for both corporations and individuals.
1:01:21 Brian Rose: That’s what I believe, too, and that’s why we’re here. I just want to say it’s been a ton of fun working with you and the team on this project, and it’s just really refreshing being around, you know, some young men like you that have a real focus and a real vision, and you want to build something incredible and new for your country and people that really understand your people, the future, the market. And I’m looking forward to, you know, the next years.
1:01:49 Darrel Wijaya: I would love to. Yeah, this plays out. So appreciate what you guys do. Looking forward to continuing this portfolio engine. I tell everybody, go download this game and play it right now.
1:01:58 Brian Rose: That’s the best way to jump right in. And can’t wait till we do this again in the future, man.
1:02:03 Darrel Wijaya: I would love to. Thank you. Thank you so much.
1:02:05 Thank you for your time, Bright.
