Philippe Botteri - Accel Partners

Full transcript: Philippe Botteri on London Real

1:32 Brian Rose: This is Silicon Real, the weekly talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. My guest today is Mr Philippe Botteri, who is a partner from Accel Partners, which is a leading venture capital and growth equity firm with $2 billion under management here in Europe and Israel and about $10 billion globally. Philippe, you focus on investments in security, cloud computing and digital services, which includes the company’s BlaBlaCar, which you’re a board member of, who we had on the show a couple months ago, DocuSign and Hailo.

2:02 Accel has offices in Palo Alto, New York City, London and Bangalore, where you guys have helped build over 300 companies including big names like Dropbox, Facebook, Groupon, Spotify, Squarespace and Wonga. Philippe, before Accel you worked in Silicon Valley for Bessemer Venture Partners, then McKinsey, before that you were in the French navy. I’m sure you got some stories about that, but welcome to Silicon Real.

2:24 Philippe Botteri: Well, thank you, I’m very happy to be here.

2:26 Brian Rose: Good. I’m sorry we’re late to anybody who’s streaming here. We were just chatting in the kitchen about all things London, so let’s jump into tech. You know, I’ve been reading your blog posts. You have some great articles up there, and I thought I would start off with one that people are talking about, but I want to get your opinion on, and that’s this mythical creature everyone keeps talking about, which are unicorns, which seem to be everywhere.

2:47 Last year, you know, there’s been some exits. For people that don’t know, I guess a unicorn is really a term for a company with a larger than a billion dollar market cap, right? At least that’s what it used to be. Maybe there’s going to be new ones, and we see things like that with Supercell, you know, crayo just e last year, King, Zynga, you know, everyone now, including you, has talked about the next $2 billion company coming out of Europe. I was wondering if you where do you see that happening?

3:13 Is there a specific sector? Are we going to be able to do that in Europe? I just want to get your thoughts on that, kind of general idea.

3:20 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, the interesting thing is that the term. I don’t really like the term unicorn, because a unicorn is something which does not exist, right?

3:28 Philippe Botteri: That’s why it is a unicorn.

3:29 Brian Rose: Who came up with that term?

3:31 Philippe Botteri: I don’t know, but just, if you look at our portfolio, so I was doing, you know, before coming here, these, like, how many companies in our portfolio in the past couple of years I’ve raised more than $60 million, and just, you know, on the fly, I could identify more than 12 already. Okay. You know, the largest one being Flipkart, that raised close to a couple of billion last year.

3:50 So we’re seeing a lot, a lot of companies that are reaching scale now, including in Europe, which I think is the real innovation, is because people before, people were saying, well, nothing’s going to come out of Europe of meaningful value, and now suddenly, well, you have Supercell, you know, $3 billion. You have companies like Spotify. You have Avito in Russia. You know, you have companies like BlaBlaCar in France. You know, who knows?

4:14 Well, a company in France raising hundred million, wow, you know, that’s big news. What’s happening in France? But actually it’s not only in France, it’s the entire ecosystem now is really, you know, is really burgeoning, and that is, I mean, we’ve seen the good, you know, this ecosystem in Europe at 15 years of experience now, and this is a time where you have repeat entrepreneurs, you know, who are doing their second venture, bringing more experience to the ecosystem.

4:39 When you have people who have worked in the first generation of successful companies and bringing that experience to new companies, and so we’re seeing, we’re seeing this happening. So now the question is, you know, what is the 20 billion company coming out of Europe? I think we’ll need to wait a bit, but, you know, we’re making some very good headways.

4:57 Brian Rose: One of the things that I’ve seen repeating here: we’ve done 75 episodes here on Silicon Real, and one thing I’ve started to hear more of lately, including something that Nicolas said from BlaBlaCar a couple months ago, was they’re not in a big rush to get to the US, and I heard that from D Dill here in London and from Nutmeg, and there’s a few of these companies that aren’t in a rush, and I know with Nicolas, he’s like, “We’re going to Turkey,” we’re going to Russia.”

5:22 Is that something, is that a strategy that will get to the 20 billion? Is that are these anomalies, these companies, or is that a new European strategy?

5:30 Philippe Botteri: Well, I think the way I look at it, I think, is it really depends on the sector and the business, and there are some sectors, like software, for example where if you want to be a leader in software and you want to be a, you know, a multi-billion dollar company in software, you need to be a leader in the US, so you will need to be in the US market.

5:48 I think the sooner you’re there, the better. Uh, in other businesses, which are more consumer, uh, businesses, I mean, you need to look at, you know, the entire world, right? Where are the consumers? And you’re seeing, you know, there’s there are a lot of people in Europe and in Russia, you know, in Turkey. There are a lot of people in you know, India and China, and there are a lot of people in South America.

6:10 And so getting to the example of BlaBlaCar is you look at their business and you look, you know, you’re looking at the US and say, well, the cost of driving in the US is lower than it is in Europe. And the, you know, BlaBlaCar is a long-distance, right, sharing company. So it works very well when you have cities. When people can drive between cities that are, you know, between 100 and, let’s say, 600 miles, and you look at, you know, all of Europe, you look at India, you look at Brazil.

6:38 I mean, you have this configuration, same for Russia. But you look at the US, and the US, you have, you know, the East Coast where you could have a hub, you have the West Coast where you could have a hub, but still it’s very distributed on the West Coast. I mean, if you go from LA to San Francisco, for example, you know, the last mile is really a problem, right? Because picking someone in Santa Monica is very different from Huntington Beach, and it could be just one hour to get there, and then when you’re in the Bay Area, are you going to San Jose or Oakland?

7:06 And that’s, you know, another hour on a trip, which is, you know, a four-hour drive, and therefore you have a lot of friction. So when you add this all up, say, well, is the US the most attractive market for BlaBlaCar? Probably not. I mean, look at India. It’s a billion people, probably a target market of at least 300, 400 million who are connected people.

7:26 Um, you know, it just feels like a more interesting opportunity, and I think, you know, if this, if the service really works in India and in Brazil, I mean, you know, I think hopefully you can reach some of the valuations we talked about, right?

7:40 Brian Rose: So no rush right now to get to America for BlaBlaCar. Exactly, yeah. Okay. You know, we were talking earlier about the sharing economy.

7:47 I know, you know, BlaBlaCar really isn’t ride sharing because it’s kind of a different concept, but you said on one of your blog posts that sharing, you know, isn’t about cost, but it’s about value. So it’s something I recently had an Airbnb trip where, uh, New Year’s Eve, I went over to Belgium and I stayed in this flat, and the guy picked me up from the place, and we got to see his quirky little, you know, flat. We communicated with him, and for me it was a cheaper price, and it was about 10 times more value than staying at an impersonal hotel, and from now on I’m just not going to use, I think, the hotel industry anymore.

8:20 Brian Rose: And is that something that you see developing with BlaBlaCar or some of these other sharing pieces where people are getting a lot more value out of what used to just be a simple transaction?

8:31 Philippe Botteri: Well, exactly. I think the important point about, you know, the sharing economy, which, and I’m not talking, I mean, there are different types of sharing economy, right? You have the C2C, which is what BlaBlaCar is doing, you know, which, and what you know Airbnb is doing to some extent, which is really consumer to consumer, so it’s not, it’s not a business at someone in, like, Uber, for example, and that’s why I think Uber is very different from BlaBlaCar, because Uber is basically a professional driver that you’re calling with your mobile phone.

9:01 I mean, there is no real sharing there, right? There’s not a real community. There is. Exactly, and it’s not a community-driven model versus BlaBlaCar. It’s, you know, the way you characterize it, a community is when people are doing both, right?

9:15 They are both, you know, BlaBlaCar. You’re a driver, but you’re going to be a passenger sometime. You know, in Airbnb you may rent your place, but you will also potentially rent the property for your next vacation. You know, and I say Airbnb but it’s the same for HouseTrip, which is, uh, you know, our European competitor, or, you know, one of our portfolio companies. So it’s all this economy, which is all about really sharing between people, and people who are basically part of something where they want to, uh, to share, and for them it’s not about only, you know, just the pure cost.

9:48 It’s about, you know, what is the value that they’re deriving from this entire, you know, being part of this community, you know?

9:54 Brian Rose: You’re a VC. You’re one of the partners at one of the bigger VCs, and a lot of people, you know, they look at VCs, cuz they don’t, they don’t get to see them very often. You guys are kind of almost like celebrities, you know, because a lot of the startups are thinking, one day, and they don’t know really what goes through your head.

10:09 And I was wondering if you could describe to us, what is it like being a board member on a company like BlaBlaCar? I was listening to these lectures from Y Combinator recently at Stanford called How to Start a Startup. It was like a series of 16 lectures, and one of the guys said that 95% of all board meetings are consensuses. He said it rarely comes to a fight in the boardroom. Usually it’s already been discussed before, and I was wondering, is that true?

10:31 Um, and if so, why is there a voting in a board, and what is it really like when you go to these quarterly meetings? I was wondering if you could just kind of take us behind the scenes.

10:40 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, I mean, every board is different, but I think, uh, you know, taking the BlaBlaCar example, for me you know, I feel, you know, very lucky to be part of this story, and for me, you know, the board meetings is just, you know, the time where you get to, uh, to meet the team, but it’s only one aspect of the interaction, because I have, you know, I think, we, like, I personally like to develop a very close relationship with the founders of the company I invest in, and so, you know, for one board, uh, you know, kind of every couple of months, you know, there are multiple phone calls and interactions, uh, in between, and it’s, it’s all about, you know, getting part of the adventure and, you know, trying to help the manager, help the company succeed by bringing the resources that you can bring, but without interfering with, I mean, they are the manager.

11:24 They are managing the business day to day, and we don’t want to interfere with that, but we just want to be the person behind who can provide the help that, um, you know, that we can. I mean, one of the example of the things that we did with BlaBlaCar so we did our first investment in, uh, in end of 2011, and as part of the due diligence, uh, process, we looked across all the ride sharing companies, uh, that were in Europe, uh, and we found a lot of small companies, and in particular that was one in Italy, where we were like, we’re not going to invest in that company, but it is very strong, you know. It was a couple of people, very strong, same vision.

12:02 I said, well, we can’t invest in you, but maybe it would be interesting for you to get to know the BlaBlaCar team, because you think you could be a great addition. So you know, I put them in touch, and by the time we closed, the, you know, the investment, you know, that acquired that company, and, uh, and they launched in Italy a few months, a few months later. So, this is the type of, you know, value we can provide, by providing, you know, this outside look, you know, at the market, and trying to help, you know, with recruiting people, help with strategy, potential acquisition.

12:32 Um, so, and that’s, you know, our way to try to be part of the adventure.

12:36 Brian Rose: And how do you walk the fine line between interfering with founders’ vision and helping out and directing?

12:42 Philippe Botteri: I mean, that’s ultimately the hardest job. We’re, we’re not, I mean, the thing is, we’re not directing. I don’t really like that word, because, uh, the founders are, I mean, they are living their business day to day, and, you know, if I invest in a founding team, it’s because, because I trust that they will make the, the right decision.

13:01 And so I see my role, and that’s the first thing I said to, you know, every one of the founders, every company I invested in. I tell the founders, you know, I’m going to tell you things, and your role is just to filter whatever I say to you, take whatever you think is interesting, and just discard whatever you think is not interesting. Um, and so for me, I, I, I mean, I’m just trying to give input based on what the things that I’m seeing that, you know, their day-to-day in their business.

13:28 I’m seeing a lot of businesses, because, you know, I’m speaking probably to two, 300 companies every year. Uh, so I’m bringing this external perspective. I’m seeing all the things on the market in other regions that they may not see, and, you know, I try to share that experience with them. I think, and then I count on them to take whatever they think is relevant and apply it to the business. Um, and then there are some, you know, at some point there may be some strategic decision, or should we make an acquisition?

13:53 You know, is this acquisition or not? And, you know, happy to be part of the debate, but at the end of the day, I think the founders are, you know, they know the business day to day, and they are making the decision, and if I back the founders because I trust their decision,

14:09 Brian Rose: does it ever go to a vote in the board? I mean, is it always a unanimous or sub-unanimous?

14:14 Philippe Botteri: Well, the thing about this, thing about voting is, everyone talks about voting, right? But you know, I’ve been in this business for close to 10 years now, and I don’t think I’ve ever been in a situation where there’s been a formal vote, uh, on something.

14:29 So it’s all about kind of building a consensus and go in behind the scenes and taking a direction, and people agree.

14:35 Brian Rose: You’re saying,

14:36 Philippe Botteri: well, exactly. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, um, you know, I think it may take some time at some point to get alignment, but I think I haven’t seen a board where decisions are not, you know, taken at the end of the day when everyone is, uh, aligned with them.

14:50 Brian Rose: Okay. Nicolas said something interesting to me when I had him on.

14:53 He said, when you, uh, when you want advice, ask for money, and when you want money, ask for advice. And he said that he doesn’t look at fundraising for a company as a photograph. He says he looks at it as a video, as in, you should constantly have a dialogue with people about funding and venture and things like that. Do you agree, disagree? Is it that simple?

15:12 Philippe Botteri: Um, I, uh, I mean, I totally agree. I’m not going to ask you for advice right now. Yeah, I’m totally agree with what what he’s saying, and, uh, just taking a few examples. I mean, just giving the BlaBlaCar example. I mean, I knew Nicolas since 2004, because we were in the valley together.

15:27 That’s, it’s actually a funny story, because the um, so in 2007 we had, at that time, so he was leaving the valley, going back to inad, and and then I remember we had a dinner at my house in San Francisco, and he was telling me, oh, you know, I’ve invested in this company called BlaBlaCar. You know, you know, I put an angel. I participated in the angel round, and I, he described to me what the company was doing. I was like, what? It’s, it’s anything company, you know Nicolas, you’re going to lose your money.

15:56 I’m sorry for you, you’re going to lose, lose your money. And, um, and then you know, I saw, um, saw the evolution of the company, and really started to grow, and then in there, when this formerly, the company formerly raised a seed in 2010, so I, you know, spoke to Nicolas at the time, but, uh, and they had 100,000 members in the community, and it was taking off, like, well, you know, I think I was wrong. It’s very interesting, but I was in Silicon Valley, it was a SE deal in France and probably not the right fit for Bessemer at the time where I was, um, so I didn’t invest in that round, but then when I came back to Europe, you know, mid-2011, uh, then, you know, I jumped, and that was a time where, you know, Nicolas had Jo full-time, I say, well, you know, this is it.

16:39 Brian Rose: Uh, so do you think if you hadn’t known him, maybe that investment might not have happened?

16:44 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, you know, I think the fact that I known him for a long time, and I’ve seen the movie like this company, you know, starting from zero and getting to 100K, and then getting to a million, and then when I really started to dive into it, you know, in, um, in the back end of 2011 I said, well, wow, I thought the market was more small because I looked at it as this is kind of iiking, and then I realized, but this has nothing to do with aiking. I mean, this is trust.

17:09 This is a community which is based on trust, and it targets, and this is low cost, trouble. I mean, it targets a market, and when I look just in front, there are 700 million trips of 150 miles or more. 700 million, and they were at the time just doing, you know, maybe a million a month, so it was real tiny, tiny market share. And I’m like, wow, you know, just in France it can be very big, and then if you project that in other countries, it can be really, really massive.

17:36 Brian Rose: So do you always encourage your portfolio companies to keep up dialogue with, you know, future investors, or do you encourage that to any startups that are watching us, to just constantly have that dialogue, as opposed to this digital effort, every time you want to raise money, you go ask?

17:50 Philippe Botteri: Well, exactly. I mean, you know, the analogy I would take is, I would take is like, you know, when we’re long-term investors, when you invest in a company for, you know, on average seven, eight years.

17:59 Um, so it’s not like a marriage, but it’s close to a marriage. It’s like, well, you know, if you’re trying to, you know, get married, are you going to meet the person and try to get married in two months, or, you know, is it better to have known the person for a longer time? And the answer is obviously the latter. And so getting to know a set of VCs that you’re comfortable with, that like your model, but maybe you’re not at the right stage right now for them, or, you know, you’re missing something that they want you to demonstrate to get there.

18:30 Keeping in touch with these people is great, because whenever you’re going to have, you know, you’re going to hit that tipping point that, you know, is going to make them really interested in the company, then they will have all the history with you. They will trust you, and the process will be, uh, very smooth. And then on your side, as, um, you know, founder of a company, you really want to know who is going to get on your board, and don’t you don’t want to have surprises afterwards.

18:55 Um, so that’s why I really like this idea of, you know, keep meeting the VCs, give them updates, you know, once every six months, so they know you, you know them, you see how they, you know, how they react when you tell them the different news, and try to leverage a bit of their network. If they like you, they, even if, you know, they are not, you’re not in their portfolio, they may give you some help and some tips and help your recruiting, and that’s how you build the relationship over time.

19:20 Brian Rose: Okay, so if someone’s a startup and they want to approach you, what is the best way and then the worst way to approach?

19:26 Philippe Botteri: Well, let’s just say, you know, as a partner, well, I, you know, I think let’s start with the worst way, because that’s, you know, the easy one, which is just, uh, pick my email address somewhere and send me an email out of the blue. Um, because I receive a lot of email and sometimes, I, you know, if I’m traveling, etc., it’s just hard to process everything, and if I, especially if I don’t know the person, don’t know the company, and it’s not a space I’m interested in, you know, it’s not very high on the priority list. Um, so I think the key is just, just getting, uh, getting an introduction.

20:02 I think that’s what uh, is very important. If you want to get in touch, just find a way to find something that the person relates to. Uh, and if you’re in the, you know, the European tech ecosystem, I’m sure you will find a way to be connected to one of, you know, our partners, our associates, or, you know, an entrepreneur that knows us, and try to get a friendly referral, because, you know, if I have, for example, the, you know, the CEO of Crito, uh, which I know very well, sending me an email saying, oh, you know, I met with this entrepreneur, you know, what he’s doing is interesting, you should look at it, clearly I’m going to, you know, I’m going to talk to that person, uh, and follow up on the introduction.

20:41 Uh, so something, just something small, find something you can, that the person is going to relate to, and that really helps you get over the hurdle of, wow, you know, this is something on my side now that I know I, I, I need to do.

20:52 Brian Rose: And we’ll, there’s still value in a warm introduction.

20:54 Philippe Botteri: Oh, there’s a lot of value in that.

20:56 Brian Rose: Okay, because a lot of people think tech is disrupting everything and everyone’s available to everyone, so that doesn’t apply, but it does apply, right?

21:03 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, it does apply, uh, because we got a lot of deal flow, and there is a first layer of prioritization we need to, uh, you know, we need to apply, and getting a friendly referral, I think, really, uh, really helps. Okay, but then, you know, in many cases as well, I mean, we are a top-down. I mean, we have a top-down approach to the market, so we have several trends that we’re following very closely, in which we’re proactively contacting entrepreneurs.

21:25 So on our side, you know, I’m also sending emails to entrepreneurs that, you know, I don’t know, uh, but I really like their business, and I send them an email to tell them that I really like their business and want to speak to them.

21:36 Brian Rose: Do you ever get rude replies from entrepreneurs, like, you know, stop sending me these cold introductions? Do people ever say that to you, or not really?

21:43 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, I try to do the same, in a, uh, extent, try to find, you know, a warm introduction to that entrepreneur, but, you know, if I can, I just try to, uh, send a nice email, and, uh, and try to explain, you know, why I think that business is interesting, here’s our experience in the space and what we can bring to the company, and, um, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

22:02 If it doesn’t, you try again, find another way.

22:04 Brian Rose: Right? Let’s talk about profile. Fred Wilson is a VC in New York City. He writes a lot on his blog.

22:08 I think someone said he blogs every day. I don’t know if it’s that true, but he spends a lot of time putting content out. How important is it for someone like you, you know, to create content, or, you know, to build a profile, so maybe not necessarily you get contacted by everybody via email, but people know you, and so they’re like, yeah, I know that guy. I saw him at the Disrupt conference. I saw him on Bloomberg.

22:29 How important is that for you?

22:31 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, for me, I, it’s not about being known. I think for me, it’s about feeling approachable, uh, and making sure that, you know, whatever an entrepreneur, when he wants to seek funding, is going to say, well, you know, this guy is writing things that are interesting. I’ve seen him at a conference. He’s talking to people.

22:50 He’s approachable. I want to speak to him, uh, I think that’s what I’m trying to achieve. And so when I write my blog post, um, I don’t write as often, uh, unfortunately, because it takes a lot of time, but I, I try to find a topic that is going to be interesting and valuable for an entrepreneur, where if an entrepreneur is reading this, say, okay, well, he clearly knows about the space, he thought about it, and he’s giving me some things which are making me think, and maybe some piece of advice that I find valuable.

23:20 Brian Rose: When you write, you write deep, so you can tell that you have thought about the blogs that you write about, and that’s in your expertise.

23:27 Philippe Botteri: Definitely.

23:27 Brian Rose: Um, let me, um, you know, other VCs. We have Ben Homes in here from Index, which I’m sure you know from just, you have, you have a few investments with Index, you guys along the way, MHI, and a few others, but you know, they are ultimately a European fund, right? They started in Switzerland, now they’re in London.

23:43 I know they have an office in San Francisco, but Accel is, you know, it started in America, right? And so I was wondering how that changes your job on a day-to-day basis. Is it a difference when you know you have a powerful American base, or a history there? Also, you have a history of the guys in America, you know, with this, you know, $12 million investment in ’95 in a thing called Facebook, which I’m sure you’ve heard about ad nauseam, but like, is it weird to go from an intimidating track record like that to come over here and do something with the same name, you know, on the door?

24:14 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, I think what is really, uh, what was really important for me when I moved back from the US and decided to join Accel, I mean, what I found very attractive, uh, in the Accel platform, is that it was a Silicon Valley culture, uh, and I think that’s what we’re trying to bring to Europe. Is this Silicon Valley culture, and all of our partners have spent a significant amount of time in the valley, and a lot of them have learned the venture business in the valley, and it’s a bit different from the VC.

24:44 Brian Rose: How is it different, because you’re basically a product of the valley, right?

24:48 Brian Rose: Well, that’s where, I, your accent is an American, but you are.

24:52 Philippe Botteri: Well, yeah, my accent will and will remain French, unfortunately, but yeah, I spent about 10 years in the valley and that’s where, um, you know, I learned the, you know, the, you know, the venture capital business, uh, and so I think that there are a lot of things. It’s about, you know, understanding the size of the opportunity and focus, and, you know, a lot of, I mean, the temptation is just to be too focused on, you know, just the numbers and try to minimize the risk to get to a midsize outcome, because it feels less risky, and a lot of the funds, I mean, if you just do the math, if you’re, you know, a $100 million fund and you have a 100 million outcome, that sounds good, right?

25:32 You own 20 or 30% of a company that brings, you know, half of the fund or one third back. It feels good, so you would try to optimize for this type of outcome. When, you know, on our side, like, we’re a larger fund, and, you know, we’re a global fund, and we see that, you know, it’s actually possible to build very large businesses, and that’s what we’re looking for, and that’s what, you know, we’re bringing the value we’re bringing to our portfolio companies.

25:57 This global network. We want them to go global. We want them to build big businesses, and we’re really raising the, you know, the ambition of the company. I mean, one of the things which, um, I think is very, I’ve seen it a few times, that’s why I want to mention it. Is you see your companies pitching you and they’re showing you some projections, and you’re like, you know, this is nice, but, you know, doing 10 million in revenue in four years from now is good, but you think you can do better, and their answer is, well, we think we can, and we’d be happy to, but the feedback we got from a lot of the VCs is that if we put numbers that are too high, then they’re just saying it’s not realistic, and so we want to be more, and this is a European answer.

26:42 Uh, well, yeah, exactly. So when I say, well, on our side we’re trying to build very big businesses, and we want to back the founders who have the ambition, and that’s kind of the culture we’re bringing to the companies. You know, be ambitious, go global, and try to really change the world. Like, you need to have a piece of tech. Believe that your piece of the technology you’re building is going to change the world.

27:04 Brian Rose: So that’s ultimately about risk appetite, really, and being comfortable with risk. I mean, that’s almost a personality type. Can you teach that? Well, I mean, or is that a culture?

27:14 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, I think it’s part of the overall culture.

27:17 Uh, you know, it’s part also, I mean, another side of this culture is trying to be, um, you know, the way you’re involved with the company, and try to be, probably I would say, it’s not a question of, you know, being supportive, but I think trying to help more the company, you know, in recruiting, be more closer to business, etc., but I think there are some excellent VCs in Europe, and we have, we’re partnering with a lot of European venture funds, so, uh, you know, I’m obviously very respectful of, you know, what they’re doing. I think we’re just trying to bring this Silicon Valley experience, you know, uh, off camera.

27:51 Brian Rose: We were talking about one of your pastimes, which is free diving, where you hold your breath and go into water for a long long period of time.

27:59 Now, that’s about risk management, right? I mean, are there parallels here, a little bit, because, you know, you have to be comfortable with risk, but by definition we’re not as human. So I mean, is it a certain personality type that’s comfortable with this?

28:11 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, there is a par, which, you know, you can be underwater for a long time. How long?

28:16 Philippe Botteri: Um, but I mean, the, uh, I think, you know, free diving, I think, is, is, is all about you know, being, I mean, being in an uncertain environment, but being very relaxed about it,

28:26 Brian Rose: uh, and I think there sounds like investing.

28:28 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there, there’s some analogy with, uh, you know, especially in the venture business, because, um, there are a lot of times that are uncomfortable, uh, you know, there are some times where, you know, the road is shaky, and, uh, and that’s where, you know, you need to stay calm and follow your, your road.

28:46 Um, and, and, you know, believe in what you’re doing, and if you focus and believe in what you’re doing, you will succeed.

28:52 Brian Rose: Fair enough. Fair enough. What is the hardest part of your job, and what is, uh, what is, what is the main job requirement for being a VC? Is it the risk management, or is it a bunch of different skill sets?

29:03 If you look back on 2014 and you think about the hardest time you have, I’m just curious, what, what is it?

29:12 Philippe Botteri: Well, that’s, uh, you know, that’s a tough question. Um, actually, it’s, uh, I don’t know how to, uh, answer that, uh, that question.

29:23 Brian Rose: I mean, I’m guessing for a startup it would be, you know, raising money, or it would be, you know, an MVP, that kind of thing.

29:34 Philippe Botteri: But, you know, the thing is, our job is made of so many different things, right?

29:41 Um, and it really depends at which stage of, you know, life cycle you are with your investments. But I would say, if there is one thing which is that we have to do very often and that is not very pleasant, is at the end of the day, I have a lot, lot of respect for every entrepreneur that is walking out of the door, uh, because they are the guys who are ready to risk everything, uh, right, to achieve their vision. And sometimes it’s just not a good fit for us to invest.

30:12 And actually, a lot of the time, because we probably invest in only one company out of a 100 that we’re seeing, uh, that means in 99% of the time we have to say, you know, politely, no, it’s not a good fit, uh, and you’re saying that to people who have a lot of passion, have put a lot of energy. It’s not that, that’s, I think, that is what I see as the hard part of our job, because, for, we have 99 no’s for one yes.

30:38 Brian Rose: A lot of no’s. How do you say no in the right way?

30:41 It must be something you’ve practiced, because you really do have to say no in the right way, because you kind of said no to Nicolas like back in ’07. You even, you know, called his a little crazy, and then it comes full circle. So the way you leave relationships must be really important.

30:57 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, I mean, it’s not an easy way to say no to someone, especially when, you know, getting a financing is such an important event for, uh, for a company. So obviously if the company has you know, a lot of positive discussions going, it’s easier.

31:10 Uh, sometimes they don’t have, and you like really counting on you. So I mean, what I try to do is be as helpful as I can in terms of defining, you know, what I like about the business, what are the risks and things, I, you know, that the company needs to prove, and, and try to give them, you know, where they need to go to meet the bar that would make us invest, so that they have something to look forward to, and they have, trying to, you know, give them some advice on how to push the business further and get to the point where we can invest. Right?

31:46 Brian Rose: And feedback as well, that helps them.

31:48 Philippe Botteri: Exactly. Yeah, but it’s not an easy thing to do.

31:50 Brian Rose: You’ve mentioned that Europe is a collection of tech hubs. I think it’s your words, where there’s all these cities, you know, we’ve seen Paris and Berlin and Tel Aviv.

31:57 You guys are active in Israel, whereas the US is, you know, a very bi-coastal, you know, environment. I’m guessing how does that change your job? I know you go to Heathrow a lot, but how else does it change the ecosystem when all these things are happening in different places? Our show is always talking about London because I’m in London, and I apologize, you know, but you see the whole continent. Yeah.

32:16 Philippe Botteri: So the, uh, the, the challenge is try to understand exactly what’s happening in all these cities, because there’s a lot of things happening in many cities which are distant, and so how do you make sure that, you know, everything that’s happened, you’re in the relevant discussions, and you know the great companies in each of these hubs? I think that would make this business very challenging, because in, uh, in the US, I mean, 80% or 70% of the market is in the valley, then you have 20% or 30%, you know, in New York and, uh, Boston, on the East Coast, and then a bit of everywhere, but, uh, here in Europe every city is distant by, you know, an hour, two, three, uh, by plane, and you need to, you know, be present in all these hubs and tie the relationship, you know, have the right relationship, you know, with the angels and with the other funds you’re working with, uh, with all the companies, uh, so you need to be.

33:10 And the way we’re trying to do it at Accel is really to be focused, you know, by areas, and then try to follow these trends across Europe, but we think that the sector and area expertise is what is, uh, really important.

33:21 Brian Rose: What do you think that we need to do differently in London and in Europe in the next year or two? I know you mentioned to me earlier that you try to stay in touch with legislation and try to let them know what’s going on, what needs to change.

33:34 But I mean, are there anything big that really sticks out?

33:37 Philippe Botteri: Well, in, well, in terms of regulation. Yeah, regulation, legislation. Uh, well, I, I, I think right now there is a lot happening around the sharing economy, which is a space where, you know, I’ve made a few investments, you know, with BlaBlaCar, HouseTrip and Hassle, uh, and these businesses are actually doing new things, and we need to make sure that the regulation for that, um, is in place, and this regulation doesn’t exist.

34:01 And if you take a business like, you know, Hassle.com for example, they’re, they’re, they’re not an agency, right? They’re not an agency. They’re not someone who employs a cleaner. They’re just someone who facilitates the work of a cleaner, and there is no legislative framework today that really applies to this. Um, and it’s clear that if they were to be considered as employees, then they wouldn’t have a business, because right now they have two.

34:25 They’re managing 2,000 cleaners, and it’s growing pretty fast. It’s as if they had to have 2,000 cleaners on their payroll, it wouldn’t be viable, right? Uh, and so, I think what I see, which is very encouraging, I think all the governments in Europe are very supportive, because they understand that technology can create jobs, and therefore it’s something that they need to support, you know, for the better of the economy. Uh, and so they’re very open to have, you know, these discussions and see how we can adapt the different legislation to make sure that this ecosystem can actually grow very nicely, right?

34:59 Brian Rose: Tax issues, employment issues, that kind of thing are important. You know, I did an, an informal and an unplanned case study a couple days ago. I ordered an Uber in the morning, it was taking too long, so I switched to Hailo, it came on time, and then I ordered an Addison Lee that came this morning, and I got each ride-sharing service, you know, and, I know you guys are investors in Hailo, and, you know, it’s funny how, you know, depending on what news you read, one is doing better than the other, but it’s still a competition out there, isn’t it?

35:24 And I was wondering what you see the future of ride-sharing here in London and the rest, you know, because you guys, you know, you know Hailo well, but everything’s changing, right?

35:33 Philippe Botteri: Well, I hope the future is going to be full of Hailo, but, right, of course, and BlaBlaCar, as I say, is, you know, it’s different, because it’s long distance, so I, I mean, the good thing is right now is they don’t have really real competition. So BlaBlaCar, for BlaBlaCar. Uh, but just for the, the kind of, the Uber, Hailo space, I, I think it’s, yeah, it is a space that is becoming very competitive.

35:54 Um, and I think each company is trying to bring something a bit different, with, uh, Uber trying more, you know, they’re focusing on black cars, and Hailo has been focusing on, you know, black cabs, and the benefit of black cabs is that they actually know where they’re going, uh, and so, you know, it has some benefits, especially with, you know, they can use the bus lanes, and, you know, there is a lot of traffic. They know where you go. And I had a, a funny experience with, um, with Uber when I was in, uh, Warell, uh, and they just, Uber just launched, uh, and I said, well, you know, Hailo’s not being in Warell, I said, well, I’m Uber, exactly.

36:29 So I, I got into my Uber, and the thing is, on the Uber app, you can only put the name of, uh, the street name. So I put the street name in the application, then get into the car, and the guy starts driving, and I was going to a meeting which was like 10 minutes away, and I took a cup, just because I wanted to make sure I would be on time. Um, then I start, you know, playing, you know, doing email et on my iPhone, and suddenly I look out and I’m like, we’re on a highway, where the hell am I?

36:56 And and then I look at the Google Map, and I’m like, we’re driving out of town. I don’t know where he is going, but it’s really going far, and I think what, uh, and then the guy, I tried to stop the guy, but he wasn’t speaking English, so it took a bit of time to actually get him to turn back, and then I found a hotel close to where I was going, where the address was unique, and what I realized is the name of the street that I put in the system was, the translation was John Paul 2, uh, the pope. And therefore there are probably thousands of streets in Poland, and that Pi a street, which could have been 500 miles, and the guy was just driving there.

37:30 So, just, just, you know, funny anecdote to say that I think it’s sometimes it’s very valuable to have a driver who knows where he’s going, right?

37:36 Brian Rose: And the race is still on in London, right?

37:38 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, I definitely, I mean, you see, uh, your experience, right?

37:41 Brian Rose: Yeah, it was fascinating, because, you know, you, a lot of it is a, it’s a media game to a certain extent, and it is a media game, because you have to convince people to kind of be thinking like, these are my options, and these are the best things, and so I was surprised to see that, you know, and uh, I actually, Uber, Uber contacted me and said, why’d you cancel the cab?

37:57 And I told them why. So I don’t know. Anyways, there you go, they got Hailo. Um, you were on the stage at Disrupt a few months ago, and with Saul and everyone else, and someone brought up Wonga, and everyone went quiet. I actually wanted to have him on the show about 6 or 8 months ago.

38:11 I actually, uh, think Wonga, uh, serves a need in the market, and I think it’s a business model that’s been here for a long time, and it’s going to continue, and I was just wondering, is, is there things that you say about this when people ask you, or is that company going to continue to do business, business, and are we going to hear more about it in the future?

38:30 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, you know, I think things are very dynamic. Um, and so I don’t want to comment too much on it, but what I’m going to say is that you know, this is a company that has been very successful, has been going through a, you know, transition, and we’ve been helping them going through this transition, and, uh, you know, it’s hard to predict the future.

38:48 Brian Rose: Fair enough. That’s a good answer. I always wanted to get them on, because, uh, because I, I just, I’m from the capital markets myself, so when I see something like that come and then fill in need. I mean, obviously there was some mistakes made in some media, but it, it’s, it’s that market’s not going away, so it will be addressed, I think, at some point.

39:05 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, I think any market where you see that you have millions of people using a service, yeah, there’s something behind it.

39:11 Brian Rose: There, all right, stay tuned on that one. Um, mobile, I mean, you know, we see mobile pay, we see mobile everything. When Nicolas was here, he said in Turkey, the, the amount of people using BlaBlaCar on mobile was, was sky high, and I mean, we all know mobile and know it’s coming, as one of your blog posts, but how is it really going to change things in two years? I mean, is it, is it going to be a world we don’t even comprehend yet with all of that mobility?

39:33 Philippe Botteri: Well, I, I think mobile is kind of, it was interesting in mobile to see, you know, what is the right platform. I mean, mobile, the big change that happened with the launch of the iPhone, you know, in 2007, was suddenly your phone moved from a phone to being a mini computer that you have in your pocket, so suddenly now you have a device where you can have any type of application in your pocket, with location, uh, you know, device which is location. Uh, so that’s the big change, and so since 2007 we’ve seen a flurry of applications that have been developed and that are actually changing really our lives.

40:05 And then on top of that, there’s been an evolution in terms of, you know, the size of the screen, right? And there was, you know, the iPad, and then the iPhone, and then anything in between. Now we’re seeing iPhones that are, you know, very close to the iPad mini and the iPad, so I think the net net is that there is a ton of value in having a small computer that you can carry everywhere, uh, and that is location aware, and that’s opening a ton of new services.

40:31 Um, and so, you know, it’s like computing, like the PC, seven years after the PC, right? You know, once the first PC was invented, seven years later you had a bunch of applications, but you look 20 years later and you have, you know, a ton more applications, and I think that’s, you know, we’re following the same phase with mobile. Um, so I would expect, I think it’s more than two years. I think in the next five to 10 years we’re going to see a lot more things happening on mobile, uh, and the real question is, in 10 years from now, will we still need, you know, a desktop or a PC, uh, or is everything going to be in just one device that’s going to be ultra light and have all the computing power that, uh, that we need?

41:10 Brian Rose: Yeah, there was an article in The Times about, like, that new iMac, and how it really is made for people that use it for very specific things, filmmakers and editors and photographers, and for that there’s a great niche, but for the person that used to just have a PC for no good reason, you know, that that’s kind of, uh, going away, you know, to a certain extent. So, um, I was wondering if, uh, what you see as far as being in the UK, you’ve been back for 4 years now. What you see as far as valuations, do you find that at certain points you have to pay more than you thought you would for a company?

41:39 Do you have to kind of walk away from deals? I mean, you kind of look at the equity markets here, but I know a lot of your exits aren’t going to be for many years. So how, how does it feel now? Is it a good time, a frustrating time?

41:51 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, right now it is a frosty time, and if you look at, you know, the size of the rounds and, you know, the valuations out there, I mean, if you look at the venture capital history in the past 30 years, there hasn’t been that many times where a company could raise 100-500 billion dollars in the private market.

42:08 Uh, you’re talking about, say, 100, is a BlaBlaCar, a billion is, say, Uber, and, and other, you know, or Flipkart. I mean, this is, uh, the new cloud era. Raised 900 million, uh, in, um, so these windows are very, very unique. Um, and they’re signs that we’re, you know, in frothy markets. I mean, the good news is that a lot of these companies are actually a very strong business model.

42:34 Um, but, but that’s, you know, I think part of the thing right now is valuations are very, you know, very high, and therefore the round sizes are quite high. And so if you’re investing in a proven business, you know, if you’re in cloud, AA, I mean, that’s not going to go anywhere, right? Uh, but now we’re seeing a lot more very early-stage companies where the business model is not proven, uh, and they’re raising, you know, 20, 30 million, so it’s not 100 million, but it’s like 20, 30 million for a company, which, like, you know, maybe at a Series A stage, uh, when there’s, you know, still a lot of risk, because you don’t know if there is something real.

43:07 And I think when you’re starting a lot of these things happening, I mean, that’s where I think you need to be very cautious and very selective in your investments.

43:15 Brian Rose: But it’s tricky, because you might see something you really like, but you don’t want to get into a bidding war, and, you know, it makes a difficult call for you.

43:22 Philippe Botteri: Exactly. So I think selection and focus, like, you need to really pick the one you like, right? Okay.

43:27 Brian Rose: And so obviously it can’t stay frothy forever, so we’re going to see what happens in the next couple of years. There could be slight corrections. Who knows?

43:34 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, at some, I mean, this industry has evolved, uh, you know, by cycle, and that’s how the industry works. I mean, you start to have, you know, a lot of the cycle, this lethal activity, then you start getting good companies, you know, funded, and then they, this company goes public, and then, you know, we had you know, Facebook and LinkedIn, and that creates a lot of hype, and that attracts a lot of money.

43:53 Valuations are coming high, and, you know, when there is a period of time where valuations are high, and, uh, you know, usually the returns are lower, and therefore there is less money coming in the market, and that’s how kind of the cycle, uh, evolves. Um, so at some point the cycle will turn.

44:10 Brian Rose: You guys just raised a big fund, right? Recent fund, $475 million.

44:13 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, we raised about, yeah, 475, uh, in 2013, started to, Dey.

44:17 Brian Rose: So what’s your biggest challenge this year? Is it, is it investing that money, or are there other challenges for you?

44:23 Philippe Botteri: Well, no, I mean, I, I think the, uh, what we’re trying, I mean, to do in this frosty time is we encourage our portfolio to raise money, because that’s a good time to actually start building your war chest, so that, you know, when the, uh, you know, when the rates start to fall, you’re, you’re actually going to have a lot of buffer. Uh, so that’s one thing.

44:41 So that means there is a, there’s a lot of work to do on the portfolio side, uh, and then, I think, on the investment side, I think it’s just hard. We need to be very selective, and, you know, all the late-stage companies have, right, we’re seeing right now very high prices. So that’s, you know, we tend to go earlier, because I think, you know, if you invest early, even if the valuation is high, and you pay, you know, 40 or 50 million pre instead of 20 million pre, you know, if it’s a billion dollar outcome, you still make a very sizable return.

45:10 Uh, but if you pay a 700 million dollar pre, and, uh, you know, instead of, you know, 200, then if it’s a billion dollar outcome, your return went, you know, from 5x to 1.3x, and then you don’t make a living. So, uh, that’s where I think, um, you know, the challenge of this year is trying to be moderate about the investment pace, and, and try to be very, very selective, go early stage with good ownership, and try to be, um, um, I think, uh, very strict in terms of valuation.

45:38 Brian Rose: What do you miss most about California?

45:40 Philippe Botteri: Uh, that’s where I’m from. Surfing. Surfing. Yeah, it’s hard to recreate that over here. Uh, well, exactly, so you just need to take a plane, and, uh, I mean, you can go in Cornwall, but usually when I try to go surfing, either when I’m back in California, it’s like, goes there several times a year.

45:57 We go, you know, south of France or Portugal, on the Atlantic coast. There’s some very good waves there.

46:02 Brian Rose: Okay. Good. I always ask everyone that comes on a couple of questions here at the end, and I’ll ask you, if you could uh, make a phone call to the 20-year-old Philippe, maybe he was in the Navy, then I don’t know, but what advice would you give to him?

46:13 Philippe Botteri: Well, I, I think the, the one advice I would give is just follow your passion. Um, uh, because at the end of the day, I, I believe that, you know, people can be very successful if they really like what they’re doing, because being successful requires a lot of commitment, a lot of time, and you really need to be passionate about something to do it, and you know, you need to like doing it, and that’s how you’re, you’re very good. I mean, one of the examples, one of the things, you know, during my life that helped me realize this is, you know, I, I tried to learn German.

46:43 Um, and you know, I’m ashamed to say that I learned German at school for probably, you know, 10 years. Um, to the point where at some point I was able to read a book in German. Um, but for some reason I, you know, I stopped practicing two months, and then I would forget all the words, and then at some point I realized, well, you know, life is too short. You just, it’s not something for you. Just stop doing it.

47:06 Then I learned Italian, and for some reason I learned Italian, you know, in a couple of years, and I was able to speak. And then I, I did some McKinsey studies there, and then that stayed, and I’m like, wow, you know, why do you push yourself in doing German, because everyone told you that it was good to do German, and it was something that was not for me.

47:24 Brian Rose: So you had no passion for it?

47:25 Philippe Botteri: Exactly.

47:26 Brian Rose: I mean, these frothy markets, and I’m sure my show doesn’t help.

47:29 I mean, do you see people that are getting into tech because it’s the rock star thing to do, and do you sometimes walk into meetings and you’re like, is this your passion, or is this the way you think you’re going to get paid? Do you see that sometimes?

47:41 Philippe Botteri: Yeah, I mean, clearly I see that, and, you know, I see that with the inflow of people that are, you know, contacting me right now and want to learn about venture capital and about startups, which, it’s clearly some of it may be genuine and trying, but some of other people, you look at, you know, their background and you’re like, why do you want to do that?

47:59 I mean, you’ve done a lot of different things, which are great, and why would you change, try to change career right now in something where I think it’s a very risky time to do this change, right now, when you’re at the hype of the cycle?

48:09 Brian Rose: Right. Yeah, and you can tell, I’m sure, right away. You know the signs. Um, best advice you’ve ever received?

48:14 Uh, let’s go. Business, and, and maybe something that you’ve learned out in the valley that, you know, that you know, at Bessemer or somewhere else?

48:22 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, I think one of the, uh, advice I, I, I, I receive, I think um, was really, I mean, shaped, I think, the way I think when, uh, practice business, and that’s true for a lot of things, is the, the 80/20 rule, which is something I learned at McKinsey, which basically, you need to be focused. Be you know, you need to be really focused on what matters, and I think that’s every day our job.

48:44 You know, being a venture capitalist is all about prioritization. I mean, you know, we’re talking 200 companies, and you just, time is our scarce, you know, scarcest resource. You want to make sure that you allocate the time where it matters, and that’s true for the work we do with the portfolio, and that’s true with the way we were, you know, when we were trying to select an investment. Uh, and that’s an advice that, you know, that’s true for any manager in a company.

49:08 Just focus your time on a 20% thing that is going to have the 80% impact on what you’re doing.

49:13 Brian Rose: Is it triage over at Accel? Do you sometimes look at your day and you’re like, this is triage? I’ve got all these important things to do, and I have to pick out the most important thing.

49:22 Philippe Botteri: Well, I mean, every day, because, you know, in our job, there are you know, I could have three times the time I have and still, you know, be busy, right?

49:30 Because there’s an infinite number of companies, or infinite number of articles I can read, there’s an infinite number of things I could do for you know, the, try to help the portfolio, so that, you know, do some, you know, media interviews, you know, write blog posts, meet companies, travel in a lot of countries, so you really need, you know, to attend conferences, so you really need to be focused in terms of, you know, the way I tend to think about it is, like, you know, what are the areas where, you know, I really want to invest this year, and how do I make sure that, you know, I get smart about these areas, and why do I, how do I make sure that I speak to the best companies in this area in Europe? So yes, it’s all about prioritization.

50:09 Brian Rose: Interesting.

50:10 Do you have a morning routine, that, do you know, do you just get up at a certain time and have ways that clear your mind? I mean, do you have a way that you try to focus during the day?

50:21 Philippe Botteri: I don’t have anything specific, any routine I do every day, but I like to exercise regularly, because that’s a way for me to just clear my mind, and I find that, you know, if after working, you know, two days’ work, you know, 25 hours, you know, a long time, you have a lot of stress that you accumulate, and just for me, exercising is just a way to get more relaxed, you know, have an hour where you don’t think about anything, that basically helps you refresh and kind of clear your mind.

50:49 Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s crucial. All right, last question. You kind of gave a little bit of advice before, but you know, to someone that’s watching, you know, that always wants to get a meeting with the VC, etc. I mean, advice to people watching that are starting their own companies. Do you try to tell them to go and find a market, find some traction, and then come talk to you?

51:05 What do you generally say to people, cuz people want to know?

51:08 Philippe Botteri: Well, so, uh, the first thing I would say is, uh, don’t listen to people who are saying it’s not possible, uh, because when you start a company, you’re going to hear a lot of that, and you’re going to hear a lot of that from your friends, from VCs, family, family, everywhere. But I think, getting back to my first point, just follow your passion, if you, if you really believe, you, it, you need to do it.

51:30 And I think, you know, getting to VC is just, if you look at the people, look at the company they have been involved in, look at where they are, you know, what they do, and just trying to find this connection that’s going to differentiate you from, uh, other people. That’s the lesson, I think, of this.

51:45 Brian Rose: I mean, it’s funny how we forget the value of a warm intro, and I, you know, I contact guests all the time, and sometimes I go cold, but sometimes the warm is a big difference, because you rate it on who it is.

51:56 So if it’s someone you know well that says, you know, Philippe, you should probably spend 5 minutes with this guy, then it changes the game. So there you go. If you want to contact Philippe, find a way, get smart, and, uh, they can find more about you guys at accel.com. Right? You guys got a great site, and your blog, what’s your blog called?

52:11 Philippe Botteri: Uh, it’s Cracking the Code at Blogspot.

52:13 Brian Rose: Cracking the Code. Okay, fantastic. You know, we say, uh, on Silicon Real, it’s about the people, because we try to recognize that even though this ecosystem is tech, I think it is ultimately about people. I mean, you probably ultimately do invest in people, really, right?

52:26 Philippe Botteri: Exactly, yeah. It’s all about people. It’s about the people, not the tech. Right? Well, I mean, you need, you did both, but you know, the right people, uh, you know, we’ll find the right take and the right differentiation.

52:36 Brian Rose: Excellent. Cool. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, you can see, uh, we’re incredibly well dressed today on our YouTube channel, and, uh, yeah, fantastic. I’m glad we had the live audience. Thanks so much for your honesty, and, uh, it was a lot of fun, uh, and I wish you all the best.

52:50 Philippe Botteri: All right, well, thank you. It was my pleasure to be here. Okay, take care.