Michael Franzese - Mafia Secrets Revealed: How This Former Mob Boss Became The Highest Paid Gangster

Full transcript: Michael Franzese on London Real

2:25 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose, my guest today is Michael Franzese, the former American mafia boss turned motivational speaker and author. As a captain of the feared Colombo crime family, you at one point were earning 10 million dollars a week, making you the second highest earning mobster of all time, behind Al Capone.

2:53 In 1986, at age 35, Forbes listed you as one of the 50 most wealthy and powerful mafia bosses. Today 48 of those are dead. One is serving life in prison, making you the only free man left for your crimes. You served six years in federal prison, with three of those in solitary confinement. Today you tour the world telling your story of the mafia as a warning to others of the dangers of living a life of crime.

3:16 Michael, welcome to London Real. Good to be here. It’s great, it’s great to have you here, Michael. You know, I guess I wanted to start off and just tell you my brief story of, of my experience with, you know, mafia and the mob, and it’s, it’s, it’s kind of telling, because it’s got to do with the poster behind you. You know, I grew up in San Diego, California, and in the 80s I had never heard of the mob.

3:38 I never heard of mafia, because we just didn’t have that history out there at that time, and it wasn’t until I went to school in Boston, and I woke up one morning at the fraternity house, and I was all alone, and I stuck in a copy of The Godfather, and that’s the first time I was ever opened up to this life, and it just blew my mind, and I was just like, wow, I didn’t know this existed. And two years later I moved to New York City. This was 1993, and I was a trader on Wall Street, and one night the guys took me out to Sparks Steakhouse, right?

4:10 And I was just a junior, and they wanted to show me how large they lived, and the brokers took us out, the bookies took us out, and I still remember they brought out these wine glasses that were as big as my head and these steaks that were massive, and I was just this kid, you know, in probably a bad suit and a bad tie, and at one point during the meal they said, you know what happened out in front here? And I said, no, I don’t know what happened, and they said, well, you know, there was a murder out in front, and I was like, really? And they said, yeah, that’s, that’s where we think John Gotti had Paul Castellano gunned down, and it was kind of my first introduction that there was this life.

4:45 And you know, Giuliani was in power then, and he was really trying to crack down on the city, but I kind of missed maybe the era that you were there, but I got the tail end of it. And I’m wondering, you know, what does that remind you of when, when you think of those times? And the mid-80s was kind of the time of transition, wasn’t it, where kind of the old style was moving away, and, and it was kind of not like was going to be anymore? Is that what’s kind of happening in the mid, in the mid-80s?

5:13 Oh yeah, and you know, growing up in San Diego we didn’t really have a presence out here at all, so you know, maybe a little bit in L.A., but certainly not, you know, down south. But yeah, 80s was, uh, certainly a transitional time. You know, uh, Brian, always look at the, the golden era, the golden years of the mob, really from the 50s to the mid-80s. That’s when everything was happening. We had control of, you know, certainly New York City, many cities across the country had tremendous influence in the unions, and even into the White House.

5:42 Uh, but nades things started to change. They started to, uh, really use the racketeering laws effectively. Rudy Giuliani, you got to give him the credit or the blame, whatever side you’re on, for really using that effectively, and certainly made a big transition. The 80, the mid-80s was really the the major transition of the mob in the United States. Yeah, and you start in this recent, you know, uh, series called Fear City on Netflix, which I recommend everyone watching.

6:08 Um, and it really got me back up to speed on what was happening kind of in the 80s in New York City, with the, you know, the concrete rackets, and also this new technology that was this RICO statute, and how the prosecutors kind of got educated on how to use it, and it completely changed the game. And I know you know, you’ve been quoted as saying, when the guys on the street started fearing the government more than they were fearing our life, that’s when everyone started flipping, and it was never the same again. Was it?

6:36 No it wasn’t, and that’s, uh, that was the big tool, the big weapon. Uh, the racketeering law, the Bail Reform Act. You know, you didn’t get bail if you were a danger to community or a flight risk, and the Sentencing Reform Act, which gave huge sentences for, for crimes that before you didn’t get that much time for. So what happened, you know? They were blocking a lot of people up and saying, hey, you’re either going to cooperate with us, we’re going to put you in jail under the RICO statute for the rest of your life.

7:03 And, uh, you know, a lot of guys don’t stand up under that, Brian, and that’s when, uh, you know, informants really started to come forward. And of course, the use of technology, we just didn’t keep up with their surveillance techniques. I mean, Brian, they had so much on tape. Uh, you know, I mean, really the whole life was exposed through these secret tape recordings. I mean, in the John Gotti, uh, case they had 2,000 hours of recordings, and I listened into some of them because we had the same attorney.

7:29 They were listening to these tapes in the, uh, in the lawyers’ room, and boy, they were devastating. Devastating. Wow. What I found fascinating about Fear City is that before that they couldn’t really touch you, because again, I call it technology, but due to the organization of the family structures, they could never really stick anything of note on anyone, and it always had that way of protecting the bosses. And they were very frustrated, like you said, I guess, from the 50s kind of to the mid-80s.

7:59 They really couldn’t do much about the five families, and it wasn’t until the RICO statute, and like you said, married with the tech, and then those big sentences, that everything started changing. Yeah, it was very difficult. And remember this, you know, a lot of guys went down for murder, for homicide, and prior to the RICO statute, murder was a state charge. It wasn’t a federal charge unless you murdered a federal agent or you were on federal land. But under the RICO statute, murder became one of the, racketeering predicate acts, so they were able to uh indict and convict people on murder in a federal, uh, system where they were never able to do that before.

8:36 That was huge for them. So, you know, I mean, I, I personally, I don’t like the RICO law. I think it’s unconstitutional, but of course I would have come to that. I was indicted, uh, twice under federal RICO statute, once under the state, so I mean, I’ve, I’ve had my share of RICO. You know, here, want to hear something funny about RICO?

8:54 So I was an interest rate derivatives trader for Bankers Trust, and it was on One Liberty Plaza, which was right next to the World Trade Center, and again, I’m 22 years old. I’m on the 33rd floor, you know, I’m on a trading floor, and they’re allowing me to trade, you know, futures and bonds, and like for me it was like the time of my life. But funny enough, that our bank was later prosecuted. Um, and they threw the RICO Act at the bank because they had put a couple of different corporations into these fancy derivative trades, and the CFOs of those corporations, when the trades kind of tanked, put up their hands and saying, you know, I got talked into this trade, and it happened with like Procter and Gamble and a couple other companies, and they said there was a system of them doing it to repeated corporate customers.

9:39 And so they threw RICO at it, which tripled the damages. So in a weird way, uh, Michael, they used that thing against even the banks. Well, yeah, I mean, that’s what happens whenever they create a law like this. I know, uh, the law was created by a fellow by Robert Blakey, I think his name was, and it was created in 1970 specifically to go after the mob. And, uh, but you know, you give the government a tool and they kind of open it up, and they’ll use it whenever they feel they can be effective with it.

10:07 And so they started using the RICO law against, you know, any, uh, company that they said was a criminal enterprise. They created or made it a criminal enterprise, and then it would fall under the RICO statute. You know, there’s a narrative in Fear City where you’ve got the Giuliani’s of the world and the lawmakers of the world saying, here are these mob guys, they’re shaking down mom-and-pop businesses, these immigrants. You know, they’re really doing a lot of pain to the community, and then the other side is, I think, you guys, the wise guys, that are saying, you know what, we actually make this place run better.

10:40 We’re better for business. We provide, somewhat, protection. We keep out the small-time criminals. Who’s right? Well, you know, look, initially when, you know, mob guys came here from Italy, I mean, they were preying on their own people in the neighborhoods.

10:57 I mean, that’s how this thing kind of started. They were extorting them, looking for protection money. Uh, it doesn’t happen like that, you know, on a widespread basis anymore. I mean, honestly, I never did that. If I went partners with somebody and they paid me, I gave them a service, you know.

11:12 It wasn’t that we were just you know, uh, leaning on them and extorting them, but it does happen to a degree with some of the smaller time guys. But, you know, on a major level, you know, I don’t see it that way now. Some people are going to disagree with me, but look, I had 25 years of my experience in that life. Others may have experienced it a little bit differently, but, you know, I didn’t see that as widespread as the government says, uh. We did it.

11:37 Okay. And what do you, what do you think of Giuliani when you see him on that, you know, the same show you start in, you know, and you guys were playing a game, and I don’t know if you ever watched the show The Wire, but it’s kind of interesting, because you got kind of the cops and the, the drug dealers, and they, they’re almost playing the type of a game of a cat and mouse game against each other. Like, what do you, what do you think of him and everything that happened in retrospect?

12:02 Well, listen, you know, again, you got to give him credit, I guess, for, uh, you know, effectively using the RICO Act when he did. I will say a couple of things about him. I thought he was a great mayor in New York. He did a lot for the city. He really did clean it up, and, uh, I got to give him credit for that.

12:18 And, uh, you know, it’s funny, because we recently were interviewed on a radio show here. He, he did it first, I did it second, and, um, the radio host, uh, brought my name up to him, and he actually was pretty complimentary about it. So, you know, maybe he’s had a change of heart. But I always tease him. I say, hey, Rudy, I was the only one that beat you.

12:38 You know, he had me on a big racketeering case, and I was acquitted after a several month trial. Uh, we were the only case that ended up in acquittals. He convicted everybody else, so at least I got that on him. You know, but look, you know, he’s, uh, you gotta give him credit. I mean, he’s, uh, he was a good prosecutor, and he was a good mayor, and, uh, actually politically we kind of find ourselves on the same side right now.

13:00 So isn’t that, isn’t that, isn’t that interesting? You know, those 50 guys that were published on that Forbes magazine, you know, knowing that you’re basically the only one that’s free, and the rest are dead or in prison, or somewhat, that, you know, is, is the ultimate message for people that are listening, is that crime doesn’t pay, no matter what happens in the short term. Or what, what can we, what can we learn from that stat? You know, Brian, I, I preach this message to, uh, you know, I do a lot of prison you know, visits, and, uh, and I work with a lot of juveniles, gang bangers, and I tell them straight out, you don’t get away with criminal conduct in America anymore.

13:41 Law enforcement is too sophisticated. They got too many weapons. There’s too many informants on the street, and if you stay in, in criminal conduct, you’re going down. I mean, that’s it, bottom line, uh, you, you just don’t get away with it anymore. And, uh, you know, for people to get involved in that life on a consistent basis, uh, you know, they’re out of their mind.

14:00 They’re gonna lose. There’s no doubt about it. I think there was this study that was done, um, and they took like a project in Chicago’s South Side, and they they ran the numbers for, like, the, the drug dealers and the kind of the juniors, and they ran on how much money did they actually make over the course of like five years, you know, putting in time that you’re missing in prison, some of that time, that, you know, the big bosses are making more the money, and they found that, you know, the younger guys were actually making less than minimum wage, and yet they were sold this dream of this big time, you know, cash flow.

14:33 But the truth is, between the danger of death and prison and all the hierarchy, there really wasn’t, it wasn’t a great decision to make to join that life. No, not, not at all. You know, what I, what I tell people, a time, you know, there’s a myth out there, and I think the media created that, and that, you know, all mob guys, all gang guys, they’re rolling in dough. You know, they’re making a lot of money. But I always say this, in our family, the Colombo family, one of the five New York mob families, we had 115 made guys, guys that actually took the oath.

15:05 Out of 115 of us, maybe 20 or 25 were earning good money. The rest was, you know, who’s got a no-show job, who’s got a gambling problem, pushing little numbers, trying to, you know, extort somebody. They weren’t making a lot of money, and all of them end up in jail at some point in time. They’ll get indicted, they all do jail time. While they’re in there, they’re not earning a penny.

15:25 Their families are broke, and that’s consistent all the way down the line. You know, one of the things, Brian, when I speak to these young kids, you know, they’ll say, oh, I saw Goodfellas, and I saw this movie, and you know, you had the women and you had the cars and you had the money. But I say to them, but did you see the end of the movie? Did you watch it all the way through? Who lost everything?

15:43 Who went to jail? Who got killed? They don’t see that part. You know, they only see the good part, and they kind of ignore the rest. But, you know, it’s a dead end street, and I’ve been preaching that for the last 20-some-odd years, uh, you know, I know it for a fact.

15:56 You know what, uh, what else got me, Brian, when things really started to crumble in the 80s? I was shocked at some of the guys that we found out that were informants for years. We didn’t know this. I mean, our own people that were informants for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And you know, you just don’t know, man.

16:16 The street is a, is a tough, it’s a tough environment to trust somebody. Yeah, that whole myth of loyalty, you to find out, kind of goes down the drain when people are looking out for themselves, and I know you’ve got some stories of that that I’d love to get into. Uh, tell me about your racket, because it was quite interesting. It was quite advanced. It was quite intelligent, and it separated you from just maybe the common shakedown guy that was doing the other things.

16:41 You really found some innovation there when it came to your, I think, was a gasoline tax angle. I mean, you know, 10 million dollars a week is a lot of money. At your peak, can you tell us a little bit about how you found it, and how you kept you, how you kept it going for so long? Well, yeah, you know, there is another myth out there. I think that people think that mob guys, you know, getting our social clubs, and we, we invent all of these different ways to make money, and, uh, what, you know, company we’re going to extort, or whatever.

17:11 A lot of times it doesn’t happen like that. A lot of times guys come to us with a deal. Maybe they want to defraud their company. They’re in a good position. They come to us because they figure we can, you know, provide protection, we can give them money if they need it.

17:24 And in the gas business, that’s what happened. There was a guy out in Long Island, and, uh, he had a small gas operation, had a couple of gas stations, and, uh, some other guys from another family were shaking him down. They were trying to extort him, so he came to me for help. And basically he told me, look, I have a germ of an idea where we can defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. So he kind of got my attention.

17:47 I don’t like the government at that point in time. I, I got rid of the guys for him that was shaking him down, and, um, we went into business together. I’ll tell you how it happened. I put a guy with him, guy by name of Vinnie, was a butcher, one of my guys, big guy, big scar across the top of his head, and I said, Vinnie, watch this guy, Larry. Let’s see if he’s really got something.

18:06 So Vinnie used to bring me meat every Saturday. He would come, because he was the butcher, so this one Saturday, about two weeks into this deal, he comes to my house, and he’s got a box on his shoulder, and he, uh, it’s a Saturday morning. He comes in, and I said, what are we doing with all this meat? Are we having a party or something? I don’t know about.

18:23 He said, hey, Chief, it ain’t me. He’s come in the kitchen. We go in the kitchen. He puts the box down. It opens it up.

18:29 He said, this is the first week of two weeks. Taking the gas business was 320,000. It all smelled like gasoline, right? They got my attention. To make a long story short, he and I got together and devised a scheme.

18:43 It was complicated. We had 18 companies at one point in time. I had over 350 gas stations, and we were servicing just about every branded and unbranded station that we can get a hold of, and we grew that 320 into five, six, seven, eight, ten million a week, depending upon, you know, uh, the volume, and that wasn’t all going into my pocket, obviously. That’s what we were generating, but, uh, and I was giving up to the family. We had, you know, a lot of people that we were providing cash for, and I did very well myself, but it was, it was a very complicated scheme to keep it going.

19:16 What I did, Brian, I brought the Russian mob guys from Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, in with me. They had a small operation, but they didn’t know how to get around, uh, the accounting, uh, to defraud the government out of tax, and I wasn’t going to teach them. I said, you come on board with us, and, you know, you’re sharing the profits. So, um, you know, we, we ran together for about almost eight years until I went to prison, and the government just couldn’t figure it out.

19:41 We were always one step ahead of them. So you brought in the Russians because they were, they were experienced when it came to accounting and hiding money? No, no, they didn’t know how to do the accounting, and they couldn’t get the licenses that you needed to collect the tax. You had to be a wholesaler licensed to collect the tax, and then you were, um, uh, you know, you had to pay the government on a quarterly basis. They couldn’t get licensed, and they didn’t understand the count, the accounting procedure, how to keep the government bay for 10, 12 months, and we were able to do that before they came down on us.

20:16 So we brought them into our operation because they had a few gas stations, and everybody was trying to do what we were doing, and some others did it, but they didn’t do it as good as we did. I mean, we were the guys that really, uh, you know, led the way. In that it’s strange that you might work with the Russian ma, I mean, with the Russian mafia, because you know, you never see that in the movie. You just see ma mafias fighting against each other. What’s the upside and downside of dealing with, um, the Brighton Beach guys?

20:44 And did you have to sell that into your own family? No, they were great partners, uh, Brian. They’re the one of the best partners I ever had. I mean, no, there was three of them, really, and, um, they weren’t afraid of the, uh, justice of the system here. One of them had, did time in a Russian prison.

20:59 He said, Michael, this would be a walk in a park if I ever got in trouble here, and, uh, they were very intelligent, and they were very committed, and we, we got along great, you know, for, uh, for, like I said, almost seven, eight years. So, uh, and I, off, we don’t care who we get involved with as long as they’re doing the right business with us. You know, we got involved there was a group in, uh, in New York of Irish mob guys called the Westies. We did business with them.

21:25 They were another good group, you know. Stayed away from the street gangs. We didn’t get involved with, you know, Bloods and Crips and all that kind of stuff, but, uh, you know, anybody that worked effectively with us, we weren’t racist or prejudiced in that regard. You worked well with us, we’ll do business with you. I mean, when there’s that much cash coming out of the business like that, what’s to stop someone like that from trying to grab an extra half mill a week?

21:50 You know, how, how do they avoid the temptation, and how do you keep an eye on that? Well, they really don’t, you know. The deal I cut with the Russians was funny. I said to them when we cut a deal, I said, look, here’s how it’s going to go. 75, me, 25, you.

22:07 And they kind of huddled together, and they came back, and they said, you know, Mr. Mike, we don’t see that as fair. I said, no, it’s very fair. I’m going to tell you why. He said, why? I said, because you guys are on the street, you’re going to steal from me.

22:17 I know that, you know that’s the game. I said, but I won’t be that angry with you, because I’m getting the lion’s share. I said, but just don’t let me catch you. I told him, and, uh, and they laughed, and, you know, I mean, look, guys on the street are always going to play a few games, but, you know, when you’re making that much money, Brian, what does it really mean? You know, you don’t want to police the effort that much.

22:38 You want to have a good relationship, and if they’re taking a few extra bucks, what’s a big deal? That’s how I looked at it anyway. Yeah, that’s smart. So you asked for your 75, if you get 70 or 68, you’re still happy, they’re happy, and they know they got to keep it moving forward, and I guess as long as everyone’s bringing something to the table year after year after year, the partnership continues. Absolutely, and they held up their end.

23:03 These guys were, they were great. I always say they were some of the best partners that I ever had, and I’m thinking, when you’re stealing that much money, the only way you can do that over a long period of time is if it’s from the government, right? Because anyone else, it seems to me, is going to notice. But if it’s the federal government, I mean, is that the one entity where you actually could have got away with this? Oh yeah, I mean, look, you know, I’ll be honest with you.

23:28 My targets on the street were always, you know, I went after insurance companies, I went after banks, obviously the federal government. I mean, I kind of set my standard pretty high, and, uh, you know, they were all pretty easy to, you know, to defraud. I’m going to be honest with you, and, and, look, you know, I always reasoned it this way, you get as much time for a half a million dollars as you do for 10 million dollars, so you may as well go for the big time.

23:53 And, uh, you know, as long as you present yourself the right way and you understand the dynamics involved, it’s not that difficult. The government, you know, there, they were so archaic in their, uh, collection practices that they just couldn’t keep up with us. We were always a step ahead of them. And quite honestly, I, I don’t know if they even care about the money. I mean, they have to, you know, work together, but do they really care?

24:19 I mean, I, I don’t know. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t know, Brian. It was a funny experience for me. It’s a good question. I mean, it’s some civil servant who’s making some medium salary, checking on the tax receipts of gasoline.

24:33 You know, if 50 or 100 million are missing, does he care at the end of the day? I guess that’s the question, right? Let me tell you the difference between the federal and the state governments the way they operate. I got indicted for a racketeering case on, on gas in Florida because I had a big operation there. Florida, they wanted the money.

24:52 I could have walked away practically no time. They said, you know, we defrauded 80 million dollars, let’s make a deal, give us some money back, and they weren’t looking for the jail time. The feds, just the opposite. They’d rather have you in jail than collect the money that’s due to them. So you know what does that tell you?

25:10 Yeah, I guess they don’t care as much about the money. Um, uh, and then not only when you started making this money, you started diversifying your operations, and you started going into, uh, gambling and a bunch of other things. Was that just a natural outgrowth for you to get involved with all those things, and is there anything you wish you would have done differently? Well, you know, when you’re, you’re on the street, uh, bookmakers, you know, collecting illegal bets.

25:33 I mean, they don’t operate without being part of our, our network. We won’t let them operate, and, uh, you know, they need us anyway, because, you know, bookmakers give credit. Somebody don’t want to pay, they come to us to do the collection. Sometimes they need money. We forward their money, advance the money, so bookmakers were always connected with us, and I had a number of them working with me, under me, at that point in time.

25:55 I wasn’t a bookmaker myself, but I had them answering to me. Um, and then, you know, I diversified, and I always had money on the street, and [expletive] money. That’s part of your thing. Most of the time you give it to a, a business that you feel could pay. If they can’t pay, you’re going to become their partner.

26:12 Uh, I had a lot of my own guys that I would give money to so that they can give it out make a couple of points a week for themselves, so you’re always into that. Never had anything to, to do with bro drugs, Brian. We were not allowed in our family to get involved in drugs, and for me personally, I hated anything to do with drugs, because I had, you know, serious consequences in my own family with it. But, uh, and then I, I had a lot of legitimate businesses going.

26:37 I had two car dealerships. I had a number of restaurants that I had opened at the time. I had a leasing company. I had a production company in uh, in Southern California, in Hollywood, so I had a lot of things going, uh, so I used some of that money to, you know, to, to have a legitimate operation in income. Let’s talk about the drugs really quick, because I, I remember that from the movie The Godfather, and again, maybe you can tell me if that movie stands up, or if it, if it actually is based in reality.

27:02 But, you know, there’s a point where they have the big meeting, I think, after, um, you know, Sonny’s killed, and, uh, they, they kind of make up, and he just said, you know, no drugs. You know, I don’t want you dealing in the drugs. It’s bad for business, et cetera, et cetera. You know, was that really true? And or did people still do it on the side?

27:21 And then a bigger question than that is, if the mob was still around, and if they were running the drug business of today, would it be a different business? Would there be less violence? Would it be you know, a different kettle of fish? Well, let me say this. You know, um, during my era, I was told the night I got made, Halloween night, 1975, you’re dealing drugs, you die.

27:47 That’s it. We don’t deal with drugs in his family call a Gambino, no drugs, Paul Castellano, no drugs. Um, now we’re guys doing it on the side? Yeah, small time. I mean, not even, they couldn’t compete in any way with the guys in Mexico or Colombia, anything like that.

28:04 Not at all. Um, but yeah, guys were doing it on the side, and there were some guys in our life prior to that era that were dealing pretty heavily in drugs, but, uh, it was hands off during my time. And, uh, look, I had a very dear friend of mine. He was a, a made guy, and knew him my whole life. Uh, he got caught in a small drug deal, and was afraid he was gonna get walked into a room, and, and he killed himself.

28:27 I mean, he was that scared. So I mean, you know, I mean, sometimes I get criticized when they say weren’t allowed to be involved in drugs, because people online, I’ll say, oh, Michael, come on, come on, in my era drugs were hands off. Some guys were doing it, but they weren’t supposed to be doing it. Would we have done it more effectively? You know, I don’t know.

28:45 Look, you know, Brian, there’s a fallacy out there that, you know, our first way to rectify something was through violence. That’s not true. You know, in, in our family, and because in Austria murder was very serious. It wasn’t something that we did randomly. It had to be approved by the boss if it was another guy in our family, a made guy.

29:06 I mean, he basically, he wasn’t there for himself, but basically there was almost a trial held, you know, where people are for it and against it, and then the boss made a decision, and, uh, and that was the decision, you know, like it or not. So it wasn’t something that we were out there randomly killing people. It didn’t happen that way. Again, I say through my experience, my 25 years in the life, now, obviously violence is a, a part of that life, and you know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna say that’s not true.

29:34 Of course it happens, and it happens often, but it’s taken very seriously. So, you know, drugs, you know, because it got the attention of the police, uh, because there is a lot of violence and drug dealing, because there are other groups involved. I think those are the major reasons why we wanted to stay out of it for the most part. You know, there’s a famous line in the movie where, you know, I think Don Corleone says, or maybe it’s him, where he says, or maybe it’s one of the other bosses says, you know, you know, the rackets and the prostitution, he said, that’s something that, you know, the politicians can, can let slide, but if it’s the drugs, it’s something they won’t let slide.

30:11 Is there something about that market that goes against kind of the fabric of the family, or the fabric of the Cosa Nostra, where it really is like oil and water? It just doesn’t really mix for the long term the way that was set up. Yeah, you know, and I had discussion, because that affects you know, people’s lives individually. It’s not like you’re taking money off of them, you know, you’re putting something in their bodies that’s potentially, it could kill them.

30:37 And look, we did have regard for families and kids. I mean, look, I had a sister died of an overdose of drugs. My brother was a drug addict for 25 years. I mean, I hate anything to do with drugs, because I saw that, you know, we were personally affected by it. So a lot of guys had a conscience with that, you know, and there’s other ways to make money, you know.

30:55 A lot of these other mob family, I mean, uh, mob, you know, gangs and stuff out there. If you take drugs away from them, they collapse. That’s it. The drug empires take the drugs away, they collapse. We weren’t in that position.

31:09 I mean, we control the unions. We had, uh, politicians on, you know, that we controlled. You control the unions in America, you control the country to a great degree, you know, because politicians rely on you. Uh, you call up, you know, we have the Teamsters. You call the Teamsters strike, you know, you stop two and a half million people from working, trucks stop.

31:30 You call a, a strike at the, at the docks, what happens? Nothing comes in and out of the country. I mean, these are, this is powerful stuff. So we had other ways to make money. We were very diverse in that way.

31:41 We didn’t rely on drugs, where these other groups, many of them do. Yeah, and people kind of don’t remember those days of the Hoffa days, and where you guys could shut things down even with, you know, the concrete in New York City. You could just, you know, make your building’s not going to be built for two weeks, and that can bankrupt a builder, right? So you really had your finger on a different kind of pulse, and I guess you stuck to your knitting in that sense.

32:06 Absolutely. You know, I controlled a couple of locals, and we had a lot of money in our pension fund. You take that. You know, you talk about defrauding a bank. You go to the bank, any bank, and you say, look, I got a half a million dollars here, or I got, you know, 750,000.

32:20 I’m gonna put it, uh, in your bank, okay? But I want a loan, I don’t want you to tie that money up, but I want a loan for 100 grand. They’re not going to say no, because you’re putting, you know, a substantial amount of money that’s going to stay on account. Plus, it’s going to build. I mean, that’s powerful when you can do, do things like that.

32:37 So, and we have that ability, you know, and politicians. We tell a, a politician, hey, you know, we’ll make sure that Local 129 and their families, they got, you got their vote, but here’s what we want in return. So I mean, we have that kind of juice and that kind of power, where, you know, other, uh, other groups just don’t have that. They, they rely on the drug business. You take it away, and they collapse.

33:03 Yeah, I think a lot of the gangs these days are trying to diversify into cyber crime. Now, I think is the thing, where, you know, they’re trying to maybe get away from that. Is that true? Oh yeah, I mean, even, even, uh, you know, I hear some rumblings in the street in my former life, you know, that, uh, there’s big money in that, and guys are going for it, and, you know, I, hey, let me tell you one thing about, you know, mob guys. They’re pretty resourceful.

33:26 You know, I’m asked all the time, you know, is the mob still existed? In existence? The answer is yes. It’s not the same as it was during my time, but I wouldn’t count these guys out. They’re not going away in my lifetime, that’s for sure.

33:39 I mean, I think about the, the racket you used to run with the gas tax. I mean, imagine Franzese with an internet connection. That could have gotten a little crazy. You know, I thought about that quite a bit. You know, it would have been, uh, well, let me not get into that.

33:53 Bro, okay? Any ideas, because then you don’t have to be local necessarily. You could be global, and they’re, you know, and there’s a lot of money out there, trillions of dollars potentially in that business. So, um, uh, let me ask you a question. If when you look at the, at the drug cartels now, um, and the MS-13s and the gangs, and how it’s moved from Colombia into Mexico and the Sinaloa cartels, and how sometimes the violence spills over the border, like, if I was in the Sinaloa cartel and I called you up, and you were, you were going to give me an hour of your time, and no one was ever going to listen, would you advise these guys that, you know, look, if drugs are going to be illegal for the next 100 years, is there a better way to do business?

34:34 Because it seems to me that that violence and chaos, it’s, it’s never in the interest of people doing illegal activity. I don’t know. What do you think when you see those things happening? Well, you know, look, you might get away with that to a degree, you know, in South America or in Mexico, but you’re not going to get away with that here in America, not for any length of the time. Again, law enforcement is too sophisticated, and too many weapons.

34:59 So if you were going to try to establish that kind of a cartel here in the United States, wouldn’t work, you know. So I would advise them strongly against that. Um, you know, you just couldn’t do it, you know, but you can in other countries, but not here. So look, I, I, I always advise everybody, you got to go legit today. There’s no other way here in this country to go.

35:21 There’s again, too sophisticated, too many weapons, too many informants. Brian, you know, I’ll give you an, uh, a little, uh, story, uh, that happened to me when I was in custody. I had taken a plea on my federal racketeering case, and the underlying act was fraud, and I was in, in custody, and I, they had to bring me to Florida because I had to take a plea there, because I wrapped them both up together, right? They were going together, and on the plane ride back, I had about 15 agents surrounding me, and they were transporting me back to the jail, and we were talking, you know, and they were saying, okay, Mike, now that it’s all over and you took the plea, when we were surveilling you, here, did this really happen?

36:04 They were going like that, you know, and I told one agent, I said, hey, you know what, uh, I, I took a plea because I got tired of beating you guys. I beat you five times. I figured I’d give you one win. I probably would have beat this case also. And one guy looked at me, I’ll never forget, he was an FBI agent.

36:19 He said, Michael, not this time. He said you became a star and they were lining up to testify against you, and you know what, he was right. People that I thought were close to me, um, they just didn’t want to do the time, you know, and, you know, the government offers you a great deal. Put you in witness protection, reduce your jail sentence, don’t worry about it, will change your identity, give you some money, and you’ll live happily ever after. Why go to jail?

36:45 That’s, that’s pretty hard to, uh, to turn down. So that’s always the weak link, basically, is information. People on your team and they’ll always talk to a certain extent, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I mean, they approached me heavily. You know, they wanted me to do a lot of things.

37:03 You know, I wasn’t interested in hurting people. Uh, Brian, I wasn’t mad at anybody when I walked away from the life. I just saw that it was over. I said, this is this is a problem, and that guy put it in my head. You know, if I stay on the street, I’m going to end up in jail for the rest of my life.

37:18 So what am I doing? You know, so, but I wasn’t mad at anybody. I didn’t want to put anybody in trouble, but they, they came on me really, really heavy. I mean, there’s no doubt. And look, I spoke to them about certain things, not about anybody in particular.

37:30 Didn’t send anybody to prison, but you know, you’re trying to, okay, leave me alone, I’m out, I’m really out. You know, you try to convince them of that. Um, but man, other guys went, you know, full force, and they went in and, you know, put a lot of guys in prison and made deals, and guys that you, I was shocked, I never thought would go that route, right? Just to finish up on the drugs thing, I mean, if, if, if we stuck your name on the ballot and you got elected as president, what would you do about the war on drugs?

37:58 Like, what would you actually do there? Is it solvable or will it be a vice that’s always going to have to be illegal, which means they’ll always be illegal characters and violence and etc., or what, what can be done in your opinion? You know, it’s very hard. I don’t have the automatic cure. I wouldn’t legalize it.

38:16 I would not. Um, I don’t think that’s legalizing it and taxing it. I don’t think that’s the answer. You know, it’s all about enforcement, protecting our borders. Very, very important.

38:26 But, you know, now a major problem with drugs is pharmaceuticals. I mean, you know, people can get this stuff over the counter. I mean, that’s the real thing. I mean, it, that’s, that’s a real problem, you know. Real problem, and I don’t know how, you know, I mean, is it regulation?

38:42 Is it some kind of enforcement? I, I, I never got into it to study it, but I would certainly make it a priority if I were in that position, because drugs are killing us here in this country. They really are, you know. This younger generation that we have, uh, gosh, it’s such a problem. You know, you go in, in the prison, eighty percent of the people in prison are there for drugs, in all the prisons across the country.

39:05 I mean, that’s just the way it is. So we have to, some way, somehow, get a hold of it, and, uh, I can’t tell you I have the answer at this moment, but it would be a priority for me, but not legalizing, even though we saw what happened with Prohibition, and we saw what happened with Capone in Chicago, and we saw how that experiment didn’t work. It actually promoted more illegal activity and more gang activity. But still, you don’t think that would be the solution?

39:29 Heck no. I mean, come on, you can’t, you can’t really compare alcohol to hard drugs. I mean, listen, I love a glass of wine, you know. I, I shouldn’t be prohibited. I don’t think they’re in the same category.

39:40 I know people try to make that comparison all the time. Well, alcohol is just as bad. Look, you can’t, you cannot, um, what’s the word? You can’t litigate everything that could potentially be harmful to you. I mean, you got to use your head.

39:54 You got to be an adult. You know, you’re going to drink and drive. Well, that’s a problem, you know, and there should be an enforcement for drunk drivers. Obviously there is, but you can’t litigate everything that’s possibly harmful to you. You just, you have to, you know, you got to use your head too.

40:09 Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Tell me about you, because you could have easily missed this life. You were gonna go pre-med. I think you were a smart kid. You’re obviously a very smart guy.

40:19 You could have probably done anything, and yet you decided to go down this route. You know, why, why did that happen to you, Michael? Well, you know, I never aspired to be a mob guy. That wasn’t what I wanted. I mean, I always say you know, I was going to be a doctor.

40:34 I mean, I had a real interest in that. I was an athlete, but, you know, I grew up on my father, who was a very high profile uh, guy in the 60s, and I love my dad very much, and he went through several trials in the 60s until finally he got convicted on a major federal case and sentenced to 50 years in prison. And, you know, I needed to help him out, because he said to me, Mike, I’m framed. You know, they said that he, uh, ordered a series of bank robberies throughout the country.

41:05 He said, Mike, I’m not a bank robber. It’s not true. The government framed me. And I believed him, and he saw my involvement in his life as a way to help him out, so he proposed me for membership. It’s not something that I would have done anything he wanted me to do.

41:19 It’s okay, Dad, you want me to become a member, I’ll become a member. It’s not like, oh, I wanted it. This is what he wanted for me. Once I got in, I said, hey, I’m going to be the best possible mob guy I could be, and I tried to use the life as best I could to benefit me in business, and that’s, that’s how I looked at it. So, um, you know, yeah, I could have won a different route, but you know, Brian, it’s tough to look back.

41:42 I mean, I have certain regrets for things that I did as a member of that life. What people said, if you had it to do all over again, would you have changed it? You know, look, my life has turned out okay now. I mean, I’m very fortunate, very blessed. So I don’t know, I mean, I try not to look back in that way.

42:00 And who was your dad in the mafia? Like, what was his rank, and how did he kind of come up, and what did you learn from him? And I guess he, he did it in a different time where the rules were slightly different. Yeah, I mean, my dad was, uh, he was the John Gotti of his day, uh, very, very high profile. He was a captain in the Colombo family.

42:19 You know, he had worked his way up to under boss. He was Joe Colombo was on the boss for a time, and, um, you know, I learned a lot from my dad. He was, uh, you know, a master of this life. Uh, he was known as an enforcer. My dad was a pretty tough guy, but he was also, you know, he was very charismatic.

42:36 Uh, he was just a, he was a good presence in that life, and he taught me a lot, and that was very valuable to me, you know, as I navigated that life. And, uh, you know, he did 40 years in prison on that 50. We could never overturn his conviction. He was released in 2017 at the age of 100, and he died earlier this year at the age of 103. He was the oldest living mob guy in America, quite possibly in the world.

43:01 I don’t think any other guy lasted that long. So I mean, he had quite a legacy. Wow, what did you learn from your dad? I learned so many things. I mean, as far as navigating that life, you know, my dad taught me, you know, always be, uh, you know, don’t ever be quick to judge somebody, don’t ever be quick to, you know, condemn somebody.

43:21 He told me how to be a good listener, uh, you know. He taught me. He said to me, Michael, uh, and this was very valuable in that life. He said, if you and I committed a crime, we did it together. He said, one minute after we commit the crime, if you talk to me about it, I’m gonna say, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

43:40 He said there’s no reason to ever repeat anything that you did the wrong way. You know, he said, look at every telephone as a, as a cop. Don’t speak on the phone. You know, be careful. So he, he taught me so many things.

43:52 They, they seem like little things, but they were major in that life. He also told me, he said, Mike, when you go to prison, he said, I want you to remember three things that will help you out tremendously. I said, what’s that, Dad? He said, remember to say please, thank you, and excuse me. He said, those three things, he says, because everybody in prison, so many guys in prison, rather, he said the respect they never got on the street, they want it in prison.

44:17 You bunk into somebody, oh, excuse me. You, you, uh, you know, you want to step in front of somebody on the line, you know, excuse me. You ask for something, say please. He gives you something, say thank you. He said those three words are going to help you out more than you know, and he was so correct about that.

44:33 I never had a problem in prison ever, not one time, because I was courteous to people, you know, and, uh, you know, so things like that in the street are very valuable, and I took those, those things with me, you know, in my life today. You know, I try to give people respect. You know, it doesn’t matter who they are. Another thing my dad taught me, Brian, he said, he said, always be respectful to the little guy. Now, he didn’t mean the little guy to be offensive.

44:56 He just meant, you know, give respect to the little guy. The waiter, take good care of him. The guy at the valet parker, take care of him. Always be pleasant to people. Give them a pat on the back.

45:07 He said those are the people that make you strong, and he was right about that too. So, you know, I always give everybody with me. You always have respect until you lose it. You know, I mean, I look at it that way, and it’s a good way to be in life, not only, you know, on the street. Yeah, I never would have thought that would have been the best prison advice, but, uh, but if you confirm it, then I believe you.

45:28 I do. I’m telling you why I’m very valuable, because I saw guys in there try to throw, look, John Gotti got slapped around in prison. You know, other guys said, I know not to mention their name, but, you know, you can’t throw your weight around in there, especially if you’re in a penitentiary with guys that are doing life without parole. They don’t care who you are. After them, don’t care if they’re dying, thinking, we’re going to die, you know, at some point here.

45:50 So if it’s today or next week or next year, what’s the difference? You can’t, uh, you can’t throw your weight around in there. Yeah, I’ve had, um, a guy named Wes Watson on the show who spent 10 years in, in GP in California, and he’s really good about trying to explain what happens in there, but he says when you’re in there, all you have is respect, all you have is your daily program. That’s, that’s the currency there. Um, nothing else matters, so that’s what you have to work with when you’re in there, and if you don’t understand that game, you’re going to lose that game.

46:22 Um, and it sounds similar to what you’re saying as well. He’s very, he’s right about that. That’s, that’s correct. Were you angry at the government because of the way they had treated your father, and the fact that, you know, you had to, you know, uh, you know, you didn’t get to see him. You only got a couple calls a month, and you had to go visit him in prison.

46:40 I mean, were you angry? You know, Brian, honestly, I hated the government at that point. Uh, I hated law enforcement because I grew up under the you know, that cloud where they were trying to harass my dad all the time, harass my family. We had many run-ins with them because my dad was under constant surveillance for years by seven or eight different agencies. So, you know, I grew up hating the government because I love my father, and they were my enemy.

47:05 So, you know, I grew up with that kind of distorted sense of view, um, you know, throughout my lifetime until I got out of the life and started to realize, hey, we were the bad guys, they’re the good guys, you know, and, uh, and now I have many friends in law enforcement just because we’re friends. But, um, yeah, I mean, I, I didn’t like them at all back then. I’m sure it made it easier to do your job to a certain extent when you had that, you know, what, when, uh, when I had a chance to defraud the government back then, it was, it couldn’t have been a better deal for me.

47:36 I mean, I’m getting even in one respect, and I’m making money, so yeah, back then it was great. You know, there came a point when you were living this life where I think you had an insight into potentially the downside of being, you know, in the family you were in, and in the life you were in, and I was wondering, if you could tell us a little bit about, you know, that night that you got called in to kind of explain the amount of money you were making, because I know you were getting kind of well known, and I think the press was reporting how much money you were making, or people were talking about how you would become big time, and I think your own family was starting to think you might be hiding money from them, and they called you in for a sit- down, which, you know, you learned a lot from that.

48:16 I know it was a big moment in your life, and maybe you could frame that story for us and tell us what happened and what you learned. Yeah, you know, and it’s kind of common in that life, uh, Brian. You know, people are always looking at you, and you know, there are power struggles, and, you know, people get things in their head. I was making a lot of money, and, uh, there was a report in the media that I was getting powerful enough to break away from the Colombos and start my own family.

48:41 It was a fictionalized story. There was no basis of fact or truth in it at all, but you know, things like that get into people’s heads, and, you know, I had the Russians with me. I had a big crew. I had my own jet plane. I had a helicopter.

48:54 You know, I had a lot going on, bringing in millions. So, you know, people start to, hey, what’s really going on with this guy? So, you know, one of the, uh, horrors of that life, and I have to say that is, you know, you make a mistake, people are upset with you, uh, your best friend walks you into a room, you don’t walk out again, and that is a horrible part of that life. So I got that call one night, and, um, you know, it was a tough situation, because I kind of knew what was going on.

49:23 You know, some guys in, you know, the hierarchy of our family. I was a captain at that time. They started questioning some of my Russian, you know, uh, relationships, and the Russians came back to me and told me, and there was kind of a little bit of uneasiness on the streets, so when I got this call, I was concerned. I mean, I thought I could have walked into that room and not walked out again. The setup was not good.

49:45 It was bad, and, uh, you know, it was more of, uh, I mean, obviously, I mean, I, I don’t want to say I fought back, but I held my own. I said, hey, you know, why are you believing these kind of things? We went back and forth. At the end of it, everything was great, you know. I got a hug, have a glass of wine, and all this kind of stuff, but it was a tense situation for me, and it put something in my head, you know, and this was two years before I actually walked away, but I never forgot it.

50:10 I said, man, because, you know, my, my father, uh, was out on parole at that point, and, uh, he didn’t stand up for me the way he should have, and, uh, that was a kind of crushing blow for me. I didn’t do anything about it. I didn’t even talk to him about it, because in that life you learn to keep a lot inside. You don’t want to discuss things, and, uh, but it did have an impact on me, um, and later on, it figured into my decision to walk away. Because I said, man, you know, if your own guys are not trusting you, and, you know, your father even, it’s what do we have here?

50:44 You know, and I, I thought of it that way. But, um, yeah, you know, and, you know, I was one of the younger guys, so, you know, some of the old-timers they naturally resent the younger guys, especially if you’re doing well, making money. You got position, and, uh, you know, so you have to deal with that. I mean, I guess it’s the same in, in life, except that the consequences aren’t as severe as it could be in the mob life, but, you know, when you’re a younger guy and you’re doing well, some of the old-timers, they resent you, and I, I had to deal with that, because there was rumors you were making like two billion dollars, and they were thinking you were maybe pocketing it, and like you said, any, all the other bosses, or all the other captains, they’re not making what you’re making.

51:26 So yeah, that’s a tricky situation that you have to deal with when they bring you in, and I think one of your best friends kind of drove you to that meeting, and you talk about making that walk from the car to the the basement of that house, or wherever you went, and not knowing what was going to happen, and that was, I think, one of the longest walks of your life. It was scary, Brian. I mean, I remember it vividly now. When I, when I talk about that, I can remember it was a night in August, so it was warm, and I could remember the, you know, the little fire bugs we used to call them, lightning bugs, and I remember, I can, I can smell the, the flowers, and I can, I can just hear the crickets.

52:02 I mean, it becomes very vivid, because when you think you’re going to go, man, everything becomes very sharp, your senses, and I always say when I was walking, it was about a 30-yard walk from the car to the basement apartment. I had to go in, and I can tell you, I don’t know how my knees were weak. It was, it was a tough experience, because when that door opened, I didn’t know if, you know, boom, that was going to be the last thing I saw. Um, but somehow I held my own.

52:29 I didn’t faint. But it was scary, you know, and I don’t mind telling you that’s a scary situation, and people say to me, Michael, why didn’t you cut and run? You know, why didn’t you just run away? And I said, I don’t know, you know. It wasn’t a macho thing.

52:44 It was just kind of robotic. I just said Well, if this is it, this is it. You know, you get into that mindset. I was so much a product of that life. I said, well, if this is it, this is it, and, uh, crazy.

52:55 I mean, I know it’s crazy to think that way, but that’s how I, I dealt with it. And you asked your buddy later. I think you said to him, why didn’t you say something to me? And what did he say to you? I said, you know, I got mad at him because he was a good friend.

53:08 You know, I knew him well, and I said, you know, you didn’t prepare me. You didn’t tell me what was going on, and he looked, and he said, well, Micah was the other way around. Would you have told me? And I said, no. He said, well, that’s the life we lead.

53:20 You know, you know it as well as you grew up in it. You know, it is better, well, or better than anybody else. And he was dry. He was right. Wow.

53:26 And he, I think it was him that later told you that your father didn’t stand up for you in that meeting? And I know you didn’t talk to your father about that, but did you ever speak to your father about that? You know, Brian, uh, yeah. My dad, rather than, uh, defend me, because my dad had juice, you know, defend me, he just said, hey, I don’t know if my son is doing that, making money. I don’t know.

53:48 He does everything. I don’t do anything. I’m on parole, so he kind of took a high road, and he didn’t defend me. And that really hurt. I mean, it really, really hurt.

53:59 Um, I never said a word to him, but when I was writing my first book, I was, I was really laboring as to whether to put that in the book, but it was so significant for me that I said, you know what, I have to. So I put it in my book, because it really, if that incident didn’t happen and my dad, you know, would have defended me, I don’t think I would have walked away from the life. So that had such an impact on me, because I said, man, if my, my dad and I are so close, and I know there’s a deep love there, but if this life can separate me and my dad, what do we really have?

54:32 So it had such an impact on me that I felt I had to write it in the book, and he read it in the book. And he called me and he said, what is this stuff you’re writing? I said, well, Dad, I had to write it. I said, it’s true. He said, well, Jimmy was lying to you.

54:47 I said, I don’t believe he was lying to me, Dad. I think it was true. I said, I, I know the circumstances. I know the setup. I was there.

54:53 I said, uh, and I believe it’s the truth, but it’s okay. I said, I don’t love you any less. I said, as a matter of fact, you probably did me a favor, because look where I am now. So, but he denied, deny, deny, you know, because my dad always told me one thing also. He said, never admit to anything.

55:08 Deny it forever. So, you know, he’s kind of a victim of his own teachings to me. So I, I knew it happened, but that’s the life, Brian. It’s sad but true. The strange thing is that probably saved your life.

55:21 I believe so, because I, I, I really mean, even though, you know, I met my wife, she had an impact on me, and all these things happened. I don’t think I could have ever turned my back on that life, because I knew it would have hurt my father tremendously had that not happened, and I really mean that, and I’ve gone over that many, many times in my mind, but I said, man, if this happened once, could it happen again? Could the next time it really be over for me?

55:45 I can’t even trust my dad in that regard. Not that my dad, and you know, I want to be clear, I don’t think my dad would ever pull the trigger on me or anything like that, but, you know, sometimes, uh, omission is just as bad as commission. You know, it could be just as devastating, and that day, uh, it was a mission on his part that hurt me. Yeah, you’re probably on a knife edge that night, where every every ounce could have helped, for sure. Absolutely, absolutely.

56:12 And, you know, my father knew that I was doing the right thing there. I mean, I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Look, you know, when I brought this into the family, this was my deal. I took all the risk. It was all my guys, nobody else.

56:23 You know, we were putting in trouble as far as made guys or the family. So, you know, um, it was my deal that I turned over to them as far as money was concerned. So, and they were happy about it. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, you know, it made me rise in the ranks, and, uh, but, you know, there is a story somebody read on a platform, uh, uh, just a couple of weeks ago, that I was worth 20 billion dollars at that time in 1980s, who was worth 20 billion dollars in 1980?

56:52 I mean, it was ridiculous, but that’s how the, you know, the media inflates things. The government inflates things. I mean, there was no truth to that. I mean, I was doing pretty well, but 20 billion dollars, I don’t think Bill Gates was doing that in the 80s. I mean, you know, it’s crazy.

57:06 And so you held your own in that meeting, but you also have to watch your tone of voice when you’re dealing with a senior boss or underboss at all times. You have to be respectful. Is that right? Oh, absolutely. You know, and I was, I was getting a little irritated that night, uh, with the accusations, and I started to, you know, really express myself, and then I said, wait a minute, hold on, this is working in my favor here.

57:27 Don’t let me be disrespectful. You don’t be disrespectful to the boss, ever. You know, and, uh, so I held myself in that regard, and like I said, it turned out okay, but it put me on my guard from that point on. No doubt. I’ve seen you do commentary on movies, and I think there was a famous scene in The Sopranos where, like, one guy’s trying to lay hands on Tony Soprano, and you were laughing and saying, like, that would never even come close to happening with one of the bosses.

57:54 Never, never, ever happen with any made guy. If anybody puts her hand on a made guy, he’s done. It’s over. So that would never happen, and then to see it with Tony Soprano, the boss, I mean, come on, that would have been over in one second. You don’t put your hand.

58:10 Another made guy can’t even put a hand on a made guy, and if you’re an associate or anybody else, you’re done. It’s over. And we were made, right? I mean, it was, I think it’s ’75, where you were inducted on that Halloween night, and you took the oath, but later you became a made guy? Well, no, the, the night you take the oath, like my 40th anniversary is coming up in 11 days here in the States.

58:34 Uh, you take the oath that night, and you’re made. That’s it. Okay. Wow. Tell me about the movie culture.

58:43 You know, they say that life imitates art, imitates life. Again, I’m just curious how much that affects you and your life, you know, where the movie becomes the reality, becomes the movie, you know, in, in maybe in such a way where you know you were so much in love with this life, where when you found out that night that your friends almost you turned on you, and maybe your dad almost turned on you, you know, was part of that vision also from movies, you know, and do guys end up behaving like the movies, as opposed to the movies behaving like the guys? You know, it’s funny you say that.

59:16 You know, uh, on my YouTube platform, every Monday I do Mob Movie Monday, and I kind of review or give my perspective. Today I’m doing The Godfather. It goes up, you know, probably in the next hour. It’ll be up on my YouTube channel. But, you know, with respect to the Godfather, uh, which I think was the greatest mob movie ever made, if not one of the greatest movies I’ve ever made.

59:38 I remember, I, I was, you know, intimately aware of the goings-on, because it was filmed in the 70s in New York. Joe Colombo played a major role in, in, uh, the production of that movie, meaning that he had a certain control over the script. He eliminated the word mafia and Cosa Nostra out of the script. Uh, he put some guys, you know, in the film, like Luca Brasi, Lenny Montana, and Jimmy Caan. Uh, you know, they were, they were guys that were associated with us, and, um, you know, already actually came to an Italian American civil rights meeting that we had when Joe Colombo, you know, had the league, and explained to everybody what the movie was about.

1:00:17 So we had some influence there, but I will tell you this. After that movie came out, guys on the street started carrying themselves differently, because you know, uh, Don Corleone and, and Al Pacino, they brought a level of, of dignity to the mob that you hadn’t seen before. They really did, and guys were, were using that. I mean, they were dressing differently. They were carrying themselves differently.

1:00:43 Um, it was, it was amazing to see. So, you know, sometimes uh, life does, it does imitate art, but, um, you know, there’s, look, I mean, I can talk about some of the good movies. Goodfellas was a pretty realistic portrayal of that live. So is Donnie Brasco, um, to me one of the greatest movies that was made on that life, which a lot of people don’t know about. was an HBO movie.

1:01:07 It was the HBO movie Gotti with Armand Assante and Anthony Quinn, brilliant, brilliant movie, and I’m very familiar with that era, because that was my era also, and I knew what was going on. So, uh, you know, some of the movies get it and some of them don’t. But, uh, Godfather and two, right at the top. They were one and two, no doubt. How about Casino?

1:01:28 Casino was great. You know, great. It was, it was a pretty accurate portrayal. I mean, I knew some of the people there. I had met Tony Spilotro, their Pesci character, at one time.

1:01:39 You know, a very dear friend of mine was part of the Hole in the Wall Gang that’s talked about in the Casino. He’s still alive in Vegas, and a very dear friend, great guy. And I know Oscar Goodman, who is the former mayor, former mob lawyer, who played himself in the movie. He was Spilotro’s attorney. So, you know, I, I have a lot of insight into that, and it was a pretty, pretty accurate portrayal of Lefty, at that point, Rosenthal.

1:02:02 So it was a good film, you know. Anything, uh, Scorsese does is gonna be great. Yeah, and what about Donnie Brasco? What did you like about that that resonated with you? I mean, I know you really like Pacino’s portrayal of that guy, but what did, what did you see in there that really struck a chord?

1:02:20 You know, again, when I look at a movie like that, it’s really about authenticity in the story and the characters and the dialogue. Pacino, I thought that was his best role. He just nailed the role, everything that he did, his mannerisms, his actions, the way he spoke, the dialogue was brilliant. Um, so authenticity means a lot to me. You know, and I know, I know Joe Pistone and Donnie Brasco.

1:02:43 Now we met, we met once during that time. Fortunately, I didn’t do anything with them, uh, but, you know, we’ve been in certain speaking events together, and, uh, I have to say I think he’s a really great guy. I mean, I really do. Um, you know, and he’s become a friend, but, uh, so I mean, I have insight into that, and obviously I knew those guys. I knew Lefty, and I knew Sonny Black, and, and, um, you know, it was pretty authentic.

1:03:09 Yeah, Donnie Brasco was interesting, because it was one of the first times we saw that non-glamorous side. You know, guys that were struggling, and, you know, the, the hard days, the guys that you knew that, but we didn’t see on the movie screen. And you got to see that feeling of not everybody’s an earner, not everyone’s got the suits, not everyone’s the mastermind. Some guys are struggling. You know, yeah, and that was the rule, not the exception.

1:03:33 What you saw in that crew was, was very accurate, you know. Guys were struggling to make a buck. I mean, you know, there’s some guys out there that say, oh, we were making millions. Not many guys are making millions. Trust me.

1:03:45 You know, guys at the top, yes, and but you, you know, you had to know how to use that life to benefit you in business, and if you did that, you know, you got a good shot to earn. And, um, you know, I think I, I was able to do that, use what benefit the life could give you, um, to benefit you in business, right? To take the same thing you would do legitimately, but use the connections and the lifestyle, you know, from the mafia, to take it to the next level and do things you couldn’t do in a legitimate sphere.

1:04:16 Exactly right. You know, when on the street, when you, you can’t tough guy everybody, because you just can’t do that. People think you can extort everybody. I mean, it doesn’t last. You know, people don’t like to be around guys like that, and, uh, you know, it’s like I say, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

1:04:33 So, you know, the best thing, Brian, was to make people like you, and make people see a value in you, and then they want to be associated with you. But if you’ve got the arm on them, and you’re extorting them and you’re abusing them, they don’t want to be around, and it’s not going to last. Yeah, that’s funny, how it all comes down to just good business at the end of the day, doesn’t it? Tell me about your prison, you know, your jail time, and then ultimately your, your decision to leave the life.

1:05:00 I know you first had a first charge that you went in for, but that didn’t seem to, you know, completely alter your life until, was that second sentence? Can you tell us about, you know, how that ended up happening? Did you think that you would never get caught, or was everything starting to come down with the RICO and the Giuliani that you knew it was only a matter of time? Yeah, you know, I mean, look, I had a, you know, pretty, pretty rough record. I mean, I was arrested 17, 18 times, and I had, uh, I went to trial five times, and each trial ended either in a, uh, an acquittal or a dismissal.

1:05:33 And the big, the big thing for me was beating the Giuliani case, because if I lost that case, he would have given me probably 50 years, because I was one of the lead defendants, and, uh, where I was acquitted, my co-defendant was convicted, and they got 30 years, so I’m the lead defendant, would have got at least 50. Well, my life would have been over basically, because, uh, out of 50, I had to do 30, 35. That’s what it had been done, but, uh, you know, that really put it in my head, and then when I got indicted on the whole gasoline racketeering case, that came in, you know, shortly after the acquittal on the Giuliani case, I, I just realized, I said, look, I’m not gonna last.

1:06:13 You know, so my thing is, let me try to wrap everything up. The government really wanted a conviction on me, especially after I beat the Giuliani occasion. No, in a way, Brian, this is interesting. Giuliani helped me a lot. I’ll tell you why.

1:06:26 My partner, Irizo, in the gas business, he became an informant, and he was testifying against me in the whole gasoline case. They indicted me based upon, you know, his cooperation. What happened when I went to trial on Giuliani, and Giuliani found out that we had, that the Eastern District, he was in the Southern District, the Eastern District had him as a witness. They wanted him to testify in Giuliani’s case, and from what I understand, there was a big argument over it, because the Eastern District did not want to give up their witness.

1:06:59 They went to Washington. Giuliani won. He testifies against us. We destroyed him on the stand, I get acquitted. So now the government, in the Eastern District case, there’s worried we just destroyed their main witness.

1:07:10 That’s why in my opinion, they were able to, or they wanted to, do a deal with me. Otherwise they never did a deal. They were taking me to trial where they were, they wouldn’t have taken less than 25 years. But as a result of that, I was able to make a deal for 10 years. I was under the old law, meaning I still could have made parole.

1:07:28 Um, I had a 15 million dollar restitution in forfeiture. I gave up a lot of assets that I had at the time in connection with that, and I figured, okay, I’ll wrap everything up. I’ll move out to California when I get out of prison, and I’ll get away from the light, and that was my plan. Excuse me, that’s how I was going to work this all out, because I knew the life was in serious trouble, and that’s what you did in the end. That’s what I ended up doing.

1:07:54 Yeah, I used the, uh, you know, cause, look, I knew when I got out on parole, I could use that as an excuse not to report back to Brooklyn, um, because it’s a violation, you know, if you’re, uh, associating with anybody. So I figured, out on I’m out in California, maybe everybody will forget about me, and I’ll live happily ever after with my new wife, and that would be it. And so that was the plan. That’s, that’s how I had it laid out. Now, it didn’t actually work out that way.

1:08:19 Um, you know, but eventually it did, but initially it didn’t. Right, I mean, you know, you talk about being in that second time, and then throwing you into solitary confinement, where you know, basically something, and you kind of broke or snapped, and then you’re in there with a Bible, and you really had a, something changed. You had like an epiphany within yourself. And, you know, it’s interesting listening to you, Michael. It sounds like you know, it’s very difficult to be in that life.

1:08:49 You know, I know a lot of guys. I met a lot of people over the years in business, and, you know, hardcore ultra marathoners and stuff like that. But to, to live that life where you’ve got to hold everything inside, you can’t necessarily even trust the guys around you, even your own father. You got the government coming after you. You’re on trial.

1:09:08 It’s this whole game. You know, it seems to me that’s very few men can sustain that mental pressure over a long period of time, and I’m, and that on top of the fact that you’re in solitary, and you’re having this epiphany. I don’t know, tell us about that moment, and am I incorrect in assuming that that mental pressure, it’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna get you at some point? Yeah, I mean, and I saw that happen to a lot of guys, Brian, but I did five years. I got out on parole.

1:09:37 I was on parole for about 13 months, and it was really the worst time of my life as a free person, because I was basically dodging bullets. It became, um, you know, public that I was walking away from the life. Boss of my family call my person, go, immediate contract on my life. He took it very personal when I walked away. Uh, my father, you know, the feds come into prison, say your father went along with the contract.

1:10:01 And again, you know, knowing my father as well as I did, he probably just said, hey, if my son’s gonna you know, do this. What could I do? That’s how he would have dealt with it, you know. So he didn’t argue it. He didn’t fight it at that time.

1:10:14 And, uh, so I was in trouble, you know. I was dodging bullets. I mean, they did send some people out to get me. I had to leave my house a couple of times, and, um, you know, I’m in New York still? Are you still in New York for that 13 months?

1:10:25 I’m not in California. I wouldn’t have made it to New York. There’s no way I would have been able to do this in New York, because I was too exposed there. Wow. But, um, you know, and then it was, I was trying to make a living, you know.

1:10:36 I still had a huge fine. I had so many things going bad, so I violated my parole, and the government was upset with me, because they had picked me up in the morning and brought me into Newark, New Jersey, to testify in a trial uh, against the, uh, the boss of Jersey, John Riggi, who was a dear friend of mine. And John and I had a uh, a deal where we were collecting a tariff on every window that came into any building in Manhattan. We had a tariff attached to it, and what happened was, one of the guys that was involved in that was a co-defendant of mine on the Giuliani case.

1:11:11 He gets convicted, and he turns informant, so he tells the government that me and Riggi were partners. So the government brings me in, and they say, you’re going to testify against Riggi, because we have all this information, or you’re going to, we’re gonna lock you up for perjury. We’re gonna indict you in the case. Bottom line, they bring me in there. I don’t testify.

1:11:31 They send me back to California. I refuse. They send me back to California, and within 10 days or so, I’m violated on my parole. They were very upset with me. We’re bringing new charges against you.

1:11:42 You’ll never see the street again. You’re done, and that’s it. They, I mean, they threaten me with murder charges and everything else. So that night, you know, they put me in a hole in California jail, and they were going to bring me back to Brooklyn, where my case was. And honestly, Brian, it was the worst night of my life.

1:12:00 I said, look, you know, I was just married. Only three, I got married in July to my wife, my current wife. 35 years, we’re married. I said, we have a baby. I’m never going to see my wife again, you know.

1:12:11 The girl I did this all for, I’m going to lose her now. She waited for me for five years, 13 months on parole, now I’m gone again. I said, they can’t put me out on the yard. I got people looking to kill me. I’m going to spend the rest of my life in a 6×8 cell.

1:12:25 So you know, it was a scary feeling. I’m going to be honest with you. I mean, I said, you know, I’m hopeless. What am I going to do now? It’s done.

1:12:33 I’m finished. And I don’t care what anybody says, you know. Look, I did almost three years in the hole. It’s tough to be in some solitary like that, and when you think you’re going to spend the rest of your life in there, you know, I mean, depression, whatever you want to call it, it was rough. And that night, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I say this all the time too, Brian.

1:12:52 I used to demean people that were suicidal. I did. I said, they’re weak. They can’t face up to their troubles. It’s weakness.

1:12:59 I don’t do that anymore. Now, I wasn’t suicidal that night. I wasn’t that brave, but I can tell you I wanted to lay my head on that big cot and just not wake up. It was too painful to think of my future. I said, this is it.

1:13:12 And, uh, you know, long story short, and I’ve told this thousands of times in speaking events, a prison god came by and, and just pushed the Bible through the slot on the door, and I picked it up, and, uh, it was a life-changing experience for me. Not immediately, but I spent 29 months and seven days in that hole. And it was during that time that, you know, my life and my everything changed. You can call it an epiphany, or a realization, or, you know, a come to Jesus moment, but it had a major impact on me.

1:13:46 That’s lasted now 25 years. Wow. What, what’s so hard about solitary? What is the hardest thing? You know, the emptiness, the aloneness.

1:13:56 Uh, you know, it’s, it’s, we weren’t meant to be solo creatures. We were meant to be social, and I learned that, you know, when those lights went out at night, you heard a lot in the morning, and groaning and guys that just couldn’t handle it, and, and I don’t, I don’t call them weak. I understand. I totally get it. It’s very difficult to be in solitary, and that’s why I’m totally against it for young people.

1:14:18 Here, I think it’s cruel, and on you, they shouldn’t do it, because it can have a lasting impact on these young lives that you know one day they’re going to get out. I, you know, solitary is for people that are a danger to everybody around them, but nothing more than that. Um, it was very hard, you know, to me. I dove into, uh, my Bible. Um, I had my wife send me in over 400 books that I would read.

1:14:43 I, I had a Sony Walkman, you know, those antique things that we had, and I stayed in touch with, uh, you know, the outside world. I would get newspapers, but they would come five or six days later. So I mean, I did my best to try to stay in touch with life, and, um, you know, and, and tried to have that attitude to get me through it. Um, and you know, I was able to do it. Yeah, again, I’ve, I’ve had, you know, conversations with, uh, with my friend Wes, who spent 10 years in, and he said, you know, all the tough guys, said when the lights go on, it out at night.

1:15:15 He said, they’re just not tough anymore, because they’re thinking about their, their little baby girl at home. They’re thinking they’re never going to see him again. They’re thinking about everything they did in their life, all the bad things they’ve done, and it’s, it’s just there’s no place to be but in your own head, and, and it’s, I think it’s one of the toughest things, uh, that someone has to go through, to be alone there and have to be with your thoughts, especially when you don’t know if there’s an end coming.

1:15:41 No, you know, Brian, one of the worst nights of my life. Um, you know, I used to get the phone. The last call to my wife would be at about midnight. I wasn’t in the hole at this point. I was out on the yard, and, uh, the phones used to go off at midnight, right?

1:15:55 So I would go in, you know, quarter to 12, because you can’t stay long on the phone. You don’t abuse the phones there, people trying to get their loved ones, and so I would say goodnight. So I pick up the phone, and my father-in-law answers, and I said, you know, where’s, where’s Cammy? And she said, oh, Michael, she had to take the kids to the hospital in emergency, and the phones click off. My two baby daughters, right?

1:16:20 I said, oh my god, what happened? Was it a car accident? You know, I didn’t know what happened. Well, I didn’t get the phone until seven o’clock the following morning. I didn’t sleep for one minute.

1:16:29 I mean, I was a wreck, and finally, I, when I got on the phone, what happened? My two little daughters had Flintstone vitamins they thought were candy, and so they ate the whole jar of vitamins, and she had to take them to get their stomach, you know, make that. It was nothing, no major thing, but that night, I mean, in crucial night, because all you care about is your loved ones and, you know, your family on the outside when you’re blessed enough to have a family.

1:16:53 So, you know, in that regard, prison can be difficult. You know, I always say the guys that do the best time are those that have no ties on the outside, because that becomes their life. They don’t have to worry about anything, and and that’s their whole world, and they do better time. That’s the truth. So you did your three years, and you’re out.

1:17:14 You know, how do you even survive those next five years? Because I know you said before, when you’re out for 13 months, so you had a contract out on you. Um, you know, how do you survive? Were you still watching your back? Do you still watch your back to this day?

1:17:27 And also, how much does location play a part? That’s one thing I always found fascinating, that when you actually move, you know, a few hundred miles away from the place you were, it seems strangely enough, even though they’re a plane ride away, the effectiveness or the desire of payback drops down. Well, understand this, I mean, location means a lot, because you know, it’s one thing to walk somebody into a room. You know, best friend walks in a room, and that’s it.

1:17:55 It’s another thing to, in my case, travel across the country with a hit squad, and, you know, take a guy out that is aware of it. You know, and I changed my whole lifestyle, meaning that I didn’t go into clubs anymore. I know a club is a bad place for me. I’m pretty well known. I know who hangs out there.

1:18:12 Somebody spots me, they make a phone call, I go out in the parking lot, boom, I’m gone. So I avoided the nightlife. I didn’t go to the same restaurant every Tuesday night, Wednesday night, so people know I created a pattern in my life. I didn’t walk my dog at seven o’clock every morning. All the things that I know that guys would be looking for, I’m aware of.

1:18:30 I was very disciplined in that regard, and, you know, it’s one thing again to send a hit squad across the country, try to get somebody that’s aware of it, and then get away with it. So, you know, and then what happened, you know, the government did me dirty, and that they were putting my name on the witness list of major trials that were going on in New York, so everybody thought I was going to cooperate, because normally when a guy walks away, he’s cooperating, you know. That’s what happens.

1:18:55 Um, but then I don’t show up in any of these trials, and then I get violated on my parole, and then people start to realize, well, maybe this guy is just walking away. He’s not going to hurt anybody. And so then they had their own troubles, you know. Who was indicted? Everybody got in trouble, so I became a less of a, of a concern to anybody.

1:19:15 Now, I always say this. I can’t go back to Brooklyn. Say, hey, guys, I’m moving back into the neighborhood. That wouldn’t be very smart. It probably wouldn’t last 48 hours.

1:19:23 But, you know, I always tell people I believe in God, but God doesn’t tell you to be stupid. You got to use your head. You know, you can’t, you know, do things like that. But I, I don’t think anybody is got it in for me. I mean, yeah, this, there’s, I know this talk on the street sometimes, because I’m all over the place now, very high profile, and, you know, people still will make remarks about what I do, and they don’t like it.

1:19:45 But, look, I never wanted to put anybody in prison. I was never out to hurt anybody. I wasn’t upset with anybody, you know, people that I thought, maybe, you know, didn’t do the right thing with me. Well, that’s, that’s part of the life, you know. When you get involved, you know, that’s going to happen at some point in time.

1:20:02 So it wasn’t that I was me. I wasn’t even mad at my, I loved my dad until the moment he died. I loved him. We didn’t see eye to eye on things, you know, and, uh, um, but he understood. We patched everything up, you know.

1:20:14 Um, and he understood what I did, and he knew it was the right thing, even though he wouldn’t publicly admit it, because my dad, uh, you know, he’s a legend in that regard. He was dying with his boots on. He would never say a word. That’s just what he wanted to be known for. And, you know, the one thing I have, Brian, if I can get personal, you know, the one discussion I had with my dad, I said, Dad, do you understand that our whole family was destroyed because of your involvement in this life?

1:20:42 I said, we had a sister died of an overdose of drugs. My brother, 25 years of drug addict, gotten a problem, cooperated with the government, and became an informant against you. I said, Mom, 33 years without a husband at the end of her life. Their relationship was ugly, because she blamed my dad for everything that went wrong. I says, we had another sister died.

1:21:05 She was a basket case. She died at 42 of cancer. The whole family destroyed because of our involvement in this life. I said, I didn’t want to do that to my family, but seem that the problem with my dad is he wouldn’t take responsibility for it. He said I was framed, and if I wasn’t framed, this would happen.

1:21:24 I said, I know that, Dad, but you weren’t framed, because you’re a doctor, a lawyer, or a priest. You’re afraid, because this is the lifestyle you chose. I don’t agree with framing. Don’t get me wrong, government is not supposed to do that. They have enough weapons and tools to get you the right way.

1:21:41 The government can’t be lawless, but we got to be honest and face the truth. But he would never, he didn’t want to admit that. So that was the one kind of disagreement that we had, and, um, you know, but I love my dad. I know he loved me, and I know he loved his family. He just, that was his way of thinking, you know, and he didn’t, he disagreed then with you walking away, because he thought that was wrong.

1:22:04 He disagreed, but, um, he accepted me back into his life, you know. And I said, Dad, you know, I was never going to hurt anybody, because I sent word to him. I said, you’re not going to understand what I’m doing, but you tell people, don’t worry about it. I’m not going to hurt anybody. And, Brian, I could have, heard a lot of people.

1:22:22 I spent a long time on the street at a pretty high level, and I could have hurt a lot of people, and I didn’t, because that’s not what I’m about. It’s not what I wanted to do. I testified in one case under subpoena from an associate of mine, and he never went to prison. I knew what I was doing. He knew what I, under, what I was doing.

1:22:39 The guy never got, went to prison, didn’t one hour in jail. So, uh, and nobody cared about that guy anyway. He was my guy, and like I said, I knew how it was going to turn out, and he never did an hour in jail. So, uh, and I was subpoenaed NDK, and all I did was tell the truth. I guess the lesson that I’m sure you, you tell to people, and I want to talk about what you do these days, and anybody listening, is that crime doesn’t pay.

1:23:04 It just doesn’t, and whether it’s the collateral damage of your whole family being messed up because of the life you chose to lead, or the fact that you are watching your back all the time, or the fact you might get killed, or you go to prison, or the money you made was taken away. Like any way you add it up, it doesn’t really work, and you hear it from so many different people, from hustlers and rappers. I’ve had Ice-T on the show who used to be a hustler back in the day, and he says it now.

1:23:30 He said, get a legit hustle. He said, I have a legit hustle. I’m an actor, I’m a musician. For me, that’s a hustle. It’s just legit, and you hear it from all sorts of different types of people that say the similar thing, I guess, you say, which is, it’s just not worth it.

1:23:46 No, you know, it’s funny. Ice-T’s manager is married to my sister-in-law. I know him well. Oh, George, yeah. I have respect for Ice-T, because he transformed his life, you know.

1:23:55 He was a street guy, and look what he did. He became successful, and he’s given the right message to the kids and everything else. Crime does not pay. You know, you don’t want to walk around, you know, looking over your shoulder. Um, eventually you’re going to go down, and I, I preach that to these young kids.

1:24:11 You know, what I tell them, I said, look, life is tough enough when you’re doing the right thing, and everything is good. Look at this year. How many people got hit with COVID? They’re doing the right thing in their business. Their business shut down.

1:24:22 They’re going out of business. People are dying, and they’re doing the right thing. When you, you get involved in criminal activity and you put more baggage on your shoulders to carry around. Life gets so difficult. Brian, I have so many guys looking at me, you know, 30, 40, 50 years old.

1:24:39 They did time in prison. They’re broke, and they say, Mike, look where my life went. He said, I’m 50 years old. I don’t even know what I did with my life, because they made wrong choices, and they suffered severe consequences. You got to play it straight at life, and, uh, you know, that’s the best possible shot that you have at having a decent life.

1:24:58 Yeah, I guess, I guess guys are tempted by that easy money, and they don’t see the fact that you’re going to be watching your, you’re watching over your back for the police, for your own people, for all those, like you said, those crazy problems. Not only that, you got to run a business on top of that, which is, like you said, already a difficult thing to do. Um, yeah, I guess the message is, it’s not worth it. Tell me about the work you’ve been doing for the last five or ten years.

1:25:21 I know you’ve done a variety of things. Um, and also your media is incredible. So, by the way, everyone should definitely subscribe to your YouTube channel, and I’m really glad you’re creating your own media channel as well, because I know for a long time, you know, you’re on other people’s shows, and, and doing people’s, uh, documentary films, which are great, but what have you been spending your life talking to people about? I know you speak to corporate people, athletes, about gambling, kids.

1:25:44 Tell me. Well, you know, Brian, been very fortunate in the last 25 years. I never planned to be a public speaker. I kind of backed into it for some reason. A demand was created for just me to come and speak to people on different levels, and you know, I wrote a couple of books, um, and uh, I have my life story, A Blood Covenant, and I wrote a business book, I’ll Make You an Offer You Can’t Refuse.

1:26:07 I’ve done a number of documentaries, and so I get called to speak at all sorts of events, whether they be business related, sports. I’ve done so much with professional and college sports, you know, warning players and personnel about the dangers of gambling and the relationships that they keep, and I speak probably a hundred times a year in events, um, and it’s been a great, great experience for me, and, you know, a lot of my events this year were cancelled and postponed till next year. As a matter of fact, I had a United Kingdom tour in July and August that was postponed until next year.

1:26:40 I’ll probably be there in March, United Kingdom, Denmark, so, um, so I do a lot of corporate stuff, um, and, uh, you know, COVID for me um gave me a, uh, an opportunity to do something that I’ve been wanting to do for years, and that is be a personal coach, a life coach, a business coach, and so we created that platform, uh, during this whole culvert session, and uh, now I have over 6,000 people in a community. They become my crew members. It’s a free community where we share ideas.

1:27:15 I bring encouragement. They encourage one another. Great. It’s become a wonderful platform that people are doing well, and in and it’s growing unbelievably day by day. And then I am now doing personal life skills, leadership, and business coaching, and, uh, that’s growing.

1:27:31 You know, I have a whole bunch of people now that I’m personally involved with, and, you know, look, I have a lot of experience. I have a lot of insight, you know, both in business and in life, and I love to share it with people. I mean, I’ve been doing that for 25 years, so that’s really growing. I have my YouTube platform now. I’m all over social media.

1:27:49 I’m writing another book. That book is called A Mafia Democracy, and Brian, this is not a gimmick. This is a legit book. I am telling you that the government in the United States has adopted a Machiavellian ideology that is so similar to the way we operated on the street, and this is going to be a very factual book where I’m going to point to, to examples where our government is turning very Machiavellian. You know, people say to me all, all the time, Mike, you know, the mob would do a better job running the government than, than the government.

1:28:22 I said, you don’t want the mob running the government. The mob is not supposed to run the government. The government, you know, is supposed, a lawful operation, is supposed to run the government. But you know, that book will be released early next year. I’m writing it now, and then I’m very, very excited, Brian.

1:28:37 For the last 20 years, people have been trying to make a movie on my life and all this, and we never really wanted to do it. My wife was against it, and, uh, but this year you know, timing is everything in life, and I signed a deal with a major production company, and as a matter of fact, my partner in the deal is a gentleman from London. His name is Dal Singh, and we formed a production company, Great Fame Productions. Great guy, and, uh, I’m sure he’s watching this right now, and, uh, we have a television series that will be coming out, I’m sure, next year, written by an A-list writer.

1:29:10 It’s uh, probably the biggest independent production company in the business. I can’t reveal it, because they want to announce it when they’re ready to announce it, which will be shortly, but it’s going to be a television series based upon my life, and we’re very excited about it. We do some other productions too, so you know, I have a lot going on, um, you know, uh, I’m just very fortunate, you know, worked hard, Brian, all my life, you know, nothing comes easy, work hard, but, uh, we’re seeing the fruits of that now, so we’re really excited about it.

1:29:39 I have another partner. It’s funny, I’m a good partner from London, and I have a great partner from Australia, and his name is Tibor, and we’ve, we’re doing some things entertainment-wise together, so this past year has been very interesting for me, uh, really very, very fortunate. Well, you know, Michael, you really are a unique asset, because again, if you go to that list of 50, and again, how the hell does Forbes know what the 50 are, but say they were 80, right, which they probably were.

1:30:06 You know, you’re the one of the only surviving guys who can actually tell it like it is, and so in that way you’re kind of a living legend, where tapping into your knowledge about the realness and what happened and what didn’t happen. You know, it’s, it’s something you know, we’re not going to have you around forever, and you’re one of the few guys that kind of, your stories out there, and you can continue telling these stories. Is that why you think people resonate with you?

1:30:30 You know, I think so. You know, I, I look, you got to be honest. You know, I’ll tell you a story. I went to Singapore, and I did a big event. We had about 1,800 people there, Singaporeans, and, um, it was a business-related event.

1:30:44 I tell my, they all want to hear my story, so I tell my story, and my host comes in, and they say to me, uh, Michael, we promised some of our VIP people a Q&A. Afterwards, I said, fine. He said, but Singaporeans don’t ask a lot of questions. They’re very polite. They’re very, you know, reserved.

1:31:02 We may put a shield in the audience, and he’ll ask a few questions. I said, hey, no problem. We’ll go home early. Right, Brian, I kid you not. I was there for two hours answering questions.

1:31:12 But what are the questions? Where is Jimmy Hoffa buried? All about John Gotti. I’m saying, how do these people know this? I’m in Singapore.

1:31:21 The point being, the mob genre is worldwide. People know about it everywhere. You know, the best, uh, the biggest movie ever in China, I’m told, is The Godfather. I think, following in China, I don’t understand them, because everything they send me is in Chinese, so I don’t know what this, they may be saying bad things about me. I don’t know, but I have a big following there, and what do I attribute this to?

1:31:41 It’s the media. It’s the movies. So they’ve given me a platform, um, that I’ve been able to, again, like I said, you know, when I was in the mob life, I used the mob life to benefit me in business, and now I’m trying to use the platform that the media and Hollywood has given me to try to really be of benefit to people and be an encouragement, because you know, you could tell a lot of stories, but if there isn’t a, a good moral to the story, if you’re not helping people with it, what’s the sense, you know?

1:32:08 And so I always try to inject some of my experience that could be helpful to people. Yeah, and I really appreciate that about you, Michael, and if people subscribe to your YouTube channel, they’ll see that in the videos. You’re like, I’m not just the guy that hashes out the old mob stories just to give you the zingers or give you the joke. I mean, there’s always a lesson in there, and the lesson’s quite simple, is that it doesn’t pay, and these people aren’t your buddies, and you know, this is the life that it was.

1:32:36 Um, and yet it’s romanticized to the nth degree around the world, thanks to Hollywood and the life itself, I guess. Um, and so it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. You know, you’re going to have those audiences packed, wanting to ask you those questions, right? That’s I think so. You know, and I, I understand too that, uh, you know, there’s another mob-related series coming out that on Showtime, and so the genre seems to be picking up again.

1:33:03 You know, who knows? These things go in phases, but uh, you know, look, I, uh, you know, I hopefully created my niche in that life, and you know, I don’t like to rehash war stories all the time, because you know, what’s the sense in doing that? But if you can attach something to it that’s meaningful to people, you know, even this movie review that I do, I did it for another platform, and I could not believe how it took off. But you know, I look at things from a different perspective when you have a different lifestyle and you bring a different perspective, people are interested in that, so you know, we, we handle it that way, and so far it’s been, it’s been good.

1:33:38 It’s been entertaining, and it’s been hopefully helpful to people, and people can sense authenticity. I think that’s why Donnie Brasco did so well, because there was realness in that movie, and I don’t think you can fake that, you know. So when you’re telling us the story, when you see those little details where, I don’t know, they just feel like they’re authentic, I think that resonates with people, and I think that’s why I got to tell you this. Do you remember the scene when, uh, Lefty and, and Donnie Brasco are in the car, and Lefty is smoking, and Donnie pulls down the window.

1:34:11 So you’re gonna kill me with that draft? Yeah, I cracked up in the theater, like you would not believe it. I’ll tell you why, you know. When I had my car dealership, I always used to drive a good car, right? So when I would go in, and this is when I was a recruit, I would go in, and my boss at the time, and, uh, the underboss, they would have me drive them places, except I would sit in the back, and they would drive, and they both smoked, and I never smoked, and so the car would fill up with smoke, and I would crack the window, and I swear to God, my boss would turn around, you want to kill me with draft, might put the window up, you know?

1:34:48 And so when that happened, it was so realistic. I said, how the heck did they nail that scene like that, you know? But it was, and there was a lot of realism. You know, another part in Donnie Brasco, and he said, you know, put the [expletive] on the outside, and the money you know, wise guys don’t put their money in the wallet. You know, it was funny, because my father used to tell me when a guy has a wallet, don’t go out to dinner with him, because they’re going to take him longer to get the money out of his pocket.

1:35:13 He don’t want to pay the tab. He taught me that early on, so I never put my money in a wallet, because that’s what it shows people, you know. But it was so realistic. It was, it was just great. And, uh, what happened to Jimmy Hoffa, and what was John Gotti like?

1:35:29 Okay, uh, I’ll tell you this about Jimmy Hoffa. You know, about three years ago, a guy that I knew really well gets out of prison. Contacts me. Mike, I gotta talk to you. Come to New York.

1:35:41 I want to see. His name was Peter, I won’t give his last name, and he tells me, he says, Mike, there’s a guy in prison that you know very well. He told me this story. He wants to relate it to you. He’s never getting out of prison.

1:35:53 He’s doing life, but if you ever do this story, you want to take care of his family. I said, okay. Basically it was the story of Hoffa’s murder, and this was one of the shooters, guy knew well. I believe him, the guy, Peter, that told me. I said, look, I want you to put all of this on tape, because he was sickly, and I knew he wasn’t going to last.

1:36:12 So he puts it all on tape. I have the tapes. Tells me the whole story. Peter dies. I got the tapes.

1:36:18 Here’s the one catch. The body. I don’t believe anybody’s ever going to find Hoffa’s body, because I always say this. It’s wet. That much I can tell you.

1:36:28 And so people have come to me, Michael, you got to tell this story. I said, you know what? It’s been told so many times, but if you don’t find the body, it’s just another story, so why would I bother telling it? I had somebody, a production company, that said they would put up a million dollars to go search for the body, and that in itself would be the story. And I said, you know what, let’s see what happens.

1:36:49 I don’t know if I want to do this, because I don’t want to be one of these guys that claim that I know where Hoffa is, and then it turns out to be a dead end. I believe the story. I have it on tape. It was, you know, uh, you know, to me very credible, but we’ll see what happens. So that’s all I can say about it, right?

1:37:05 And so he’s wet. So he’s at the bottom of some body of water is what you’re saying? I believe that, because you know, everybody there’s been a couple of guys. I will tell you this. The Irishman, the movie, absolutely not true.

1:37:17 Sheeran was not one of the shooters, and that movie, he’s been debunked, you know, by credible sources. wasn’t true. Good movie, just wasn’t a true story. But um, we’ll see what happens, but um, I don’t want to be one of those guys that just tell another story, because how many people have said they know where the body is, and they’ve investigated, dug up places, and they never found it? So I don’t want to be one of those guys, but, but, uh, what was the second question?

1:37:44 Oh, so he’s not so he’s not in concrete. He’s wet, is what you’re saying? That’s what I believe to be true. Okay, gotcha. Uh, Gotti.

1:37:52 What was Gotti like? You know, John was, uh, very difficult to deal with in business. He had a tremendous ego. He could never lose an argument. You had to, you know, if you had any kind of dispute with him and you wanted, you had to try to outsmart him to make him think he got the best of you, but you got what you wanted.

1:38:09 He was very difficult to deal with in a business. He wasn’t a business guy at all, and, uh, but on a social level it was a lot of fun. Go out at night, have a drink with him, you know. He was kind of, uh, he was, it was fun that way. So I didn’t, you know, I wasn’t one of his best friends.

1:38:23 I wasn’t in his crew, but we got along. I had a couple of disputes with him, and it was, uh, it wasn’t, it wasn’t enjoyable. Let’s put it that way. Okay. And your, your dad knew Al Capone?

1:38:35 Is that right? You know, my dad said that on a visit to Chicago, and I think 28 or 29, when he was a kid, that he met Capone. I don’t think he met him here when he was in Brooklyn, right? I think he met him out in Chicago, but he was a kid at that time, so he, uh, you know, he didn’t have much, anything to do with him, but he knew some of the other guys. He met Lucky Luciano.

1:38:57 He knew Costello. You know, he knew those guys. You met him, and what was the story? I mean, Capone was run out of New York City, and then went out to Chicago. What was the real story behind Capone?

1:39:09 Well, that’s it. I mean, he settled in Chicago because he was brought out there by, uh, by another friend of his at that time, and then, you know, he, he fell into it with Prohibition. Listen, Prohibition is really what gave the mob the strength at that time. I mean, you know, the money was in those days, it was uh, you know, was astronomical, and so, you know, money is power in certain way. You got money, you know, you buy politicians, you know, you, you, you get a big crew around you, and you’re able to control a lot of things, so Prohibition made Capone, let’s put it that way.

1:39:40 The government didn’t realize that they gave the mob the strength in these laws. People, you know, people want what they can’t have, and you provide a service. You know, Capone used to say that I just provide a service for the people. I give them alcohol and liquor, you know, so, uh, you know, he, he did certainly well out there, but look, the government went down on him in a big way. So what happened there?

1:40:00 Even Al Capone, who had politicians under his belt, he had all the money that he couldn’t need, he had a big crew around him. What happened? He goes to jail. Doesn’t pay, right? Sooner or later you go to jail or you die, or you live such a difficult life that it’s not worth it.

1:40:17 The only guy I know, you know, that I can really point to, that, um, that lived a long life in that life, uh, was Carlo Gambino, a very low-key guy. He died of old age, didn’t do much time, um, you know, he was an old-timer, kept, he just knew how to run things. He couldn’t survive in the current era, but back then he was able to, before RICO, you know, but you can’t point to too many guys like that and in a current era, unless you’re undercover, low-key, you’re not going to survive, and even then, eventually, uh, you know, it’s going to come out.

1:40:53 Yeah, I’m looking forward to your new book. It sounds interesting. You know, I, I had Ice-T on the show, and one of his clips that did really well on YouTube was him saying how, uh, I think was Trump is straight-up gangster, and he’s like, this is a guy who demands loyalty. He said, he’ll say, let’s get this guy shot on Fifth Avenue. He was just like comparing a lot of that to the mafia, and it was a clip that that people really loved.

1:41:15 So I don’t know if your book is similar, but I’m looking forward to reading it. Oh, it’s, it’s going to be, you know, I’m pulling no punches in the book, and it’s, it’s right down online. I mean, it’s not, you know, uh, it’s, it’s a bipartisan look at our government, and, uh, it’s gonna be scary. It’s gonna open people’s eyes, you know. I think what’s happening here in the United States is that, uh, people don’t hold our, our political people, uh, accountable anymore.

1:41:41 I mean, Brian, guys say one thing one day, they lie to you the next day, and people, oh, that’s politics, you know. And some of the things they do, these lobbyists that, uh, you know, that run around. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on that people are just not aware of, and I think we’re going to make them aware of how our government should operate, not Machiavellian, like tomorrow. That’s not the way they should be operating. Well, I hope so, because, uh, something needs to change, at least that’s what it looks like over here in the UK.

1:42:08 So, uh, yeah, I’m looking forward to that book. Tell me a little bit about you. If I were to ask five of your best friends, Michael, what is, what if I would ask them, what is Michael’s superpower? How are you able to do everything you do? What would they tell me?

1:42:20 What is it about you that allows you to be successful? You know, I mean, look, uh, you know, to me everything centers around now, my faith and my family. Um, you know, that comes first, and, um, you know, I, I try to give people respect like I said, you know. Um, you know, people ask you, people who say to me, Michael, you’re a brilliant businessman, and that’s where you were able to have this success, and my response to that is, you’re wrong. I said, what do you mean?

1:42:50 I’m not a brilliant businessman. There’s a lot of guys out there that I believe are a lot smarter than me. I can’t compete with them, but I had a talent that helped me tremendously, and that is I had two talents, I think. Number one, I knew how to recognize a good opportunity, because, you know, when you’re in that life, a lot of things come your way, and you could be, you know, all over the place, but I knew how to recognize a good opportunity. And then I knew how to put the right people in place to manage that opportunity.

1:43:21 And I always say this, do what you do best, designate the rest. And my talent then was to get the right people and to be able to motivate them to do the right job for me, and that was the secret of my success. You know that, and, Brian, understanding people, negotiation is a major part of life, and, you know, I tell people you’re going to run your business in many ways the way you run your life. Life is always a negotiation. I negotiate with my wife, my kids, my friends, my family.

1:43:50 In business, you’re negotiating all the time, so if you can master the art of negotiation, and the way you do that is by understanding people, being well prepared, knowing what you want in the outcome, knowing what you’ll settle for. All of these things are important. and I think people recognize that in me, and that’s why they’ll, they’ll ask me, you know, my advice and my counsel. That’s why the mentorship has been very successful and I’m not going to tell somebody I don’t, bel, uh, you know, something I don’t believe.

1:44:18 And if I don’t know something, I’ll tell you I don’t know. I’m not the guy to give you an answer. I’ll try to point you in the right direction, but um, you know, so I mean, I don’t know if I name five things, but I think those are the things about me that have helped me survive and have some, you know, measure of success. And tell me about your faith. I know it’s really important to you, but I also know that, you know that not everyone is ready to hear about it, depending on where they are on their journey in life.

1:44:42 So how do you broach that subject with people? Because I know you do talk about it, because it’s important to you, but what, when, what’s your experience like when people hear about your experience? Well, you know, it’s crazy, because when I first started speaking, Brian, and you know, especially in the Midwest here in the United States, where they don’t have a real knowledge of the mob life, or down South, uh, they used to put, you know, mob guy, people used to come to see the mob guy when I was speaking in a church and sharing my testimony.

1:45:12 They didn’t really, you know, so many people just came to hear the mob story, but they went out hearing about my faith. And what I tell them is this, listen, I’m not here to impose my faith on you, and I’m not trying to turn you into a Christian. I can’t do that. That’s not what I’m here for. I’m merely here to share what God has done in my life, and you take it, you can accept it or reject it.

1:45:33 And I tell the story of the impact that God has had on my life, and I tell them straight out, look, I believe this with all my heart. I should either be dead or in prison for the rest of my life, because for 25 years on the street, that’s what I earned. That’s what probably I deserved, but for some reason God had a different plan and a purpose for me, and you could see for yourself, this is how it’s worked out. Not involved in criminal activity anymore.

1:45:57 I’m trying to do the right thing. It looks like I found favor with God, and he’s allowing this to grow. And that resonates with people, you know, too many Christians in my opinion are too judgmental, you know. They’re ready to attack people for what they’re doing. I have no right to judge anybody from where I came from, you know, and, and you don’t know what’s in a person’s heart all the time, because, look, I can tell you this, Brian, I did a lot of things on the street that I wasn’t comfortable with.

1:46:27 My heart was saying that’s the wrong thing, but I did it anyway. I did it anyway, so I have to take responsibility for it, because, you know, I took an oath, and that was my life at that time. That doesn’t make it right. You’re still wrong, but I think in my play, God has seen my heart and said, okay, there’s something I can work with with that guy, because he knows our hearts. And this resonates among people, because the proof is always in the pudding.

1:46:52 I mean, here I am 25 years later. I don’t know of anybody that’s walked away from that life as publicly as I have, never entered a witness protection program and has lived to tell about it. And I don’t think that if I was doing something other than what I do, but with my faith, I would have lasted. I don’t think I would have lasted, Brian, and I’m being, it’s perfectly, honestly, with that. So I give God the credit, because that’s where it’s due.

1:47:20 Yeah, and I also think you, you know, you get what you give. You know, we’ll call it karmic debt, or call it something to do with faith. I mean, the world returns the energy that you’re putting out there. It just does, and, uh, if you let a long enough timeline, it will, and if you’re actually doing good things and putting out good energy to the world, it will come back to you, and, and vice versa. At least that’s what I’ve seen.

1:47:42 Yeah, and you know, people said to me, well, you know, you still can get killed tomorrow. I said, yeah, but I’m 69 years old. I’m not a kid. God has given me a, you know, some good length in my life. I also say this, and, and, and Brian, you can take this to the bank, if you’re a made member of that life and you die of old age and you die free, you’ve really accomplished something, because that’s a tough life to navigate, especially in these waters now.

1:48:08 So I mean, you know, God has given me a lengthy life to this point, and, um, you know, so I just, I’ll take it as far as he allows me to go with it, and, um, you know, I, I’m being as sincere as I possibly can be. Not perfect. You know, you always say this too, you can take the boy out of Brooklyn, you can’t take Brooklyn out of the boy. There’s times when I want to react like old school, but you know what’s so important in life, uh, Brian, and you know this, accountability, who you’re accountable to in your life.

1:48:36 When I was in the mob life, I was accountable to my oath. I was accountable to my boss. I was accountable to my dad in many ways, and so I did the wrong thing. Now I’m accountable to God for my actions. I’m accountable to my wife, my children, my community, and it keeps me straight in the right direction, because when I have an instinct to do something wrong, it’s like I get a tap on his shoulder.

1:48:59 So hold it. You’re not that guy anymore. That’s not the way to react. Well, my wife, or my wife is great in my life, because she holds me accountable. Tells me straight out, don’t think you’re going back to jail again.

1:49:09 I’m going to be here for you. You know, she, she lets me know, you know. I’m telling you, I’m coming off a stage one day, and we had about, oh, maybe, I don’t know, 10,000 people in the audience, and as I’m walking off, people are getting up in there cheering and great, you know, and I walk down, and my wife is saying, she looks at me and she’s just, remember this, you’re a lot more blessed than you are good. And she just takes me down, like, you know, a notch.

1:49:33 You got to have that in your life. You got to yeah, you definitely do. Um, what scares you, Michael, at this point in your life? You know, um, I’ll tell you a couple of things that scare me. Number one, uh, you know, there’s a there’s a scripture that says that the sins of the father can fall on the children, and I think we’ve seen that throughout Biblical history, and my prayer always to God is, God, don’t let any of my children suffer, because anything that I have done in my life that scares me, and God has been very gracious and honoring that.

1:50:10 My daughter, one of my daughters, I have five daughters, is going in tomorrow morning, actually, for thyroid surgery. They found two cancerous nodes there, and, uh, that scares me. I know it’s going to be okay, because that’s the prognosis is excellent with thyroid surgery, but just having my daughter, who’s, you know, she has anxiety going under the knife like that, is scary. Um, so, you know, my wife and kids, I just want them to remain healthy and fine, and the thought of that not happening is scary.

1:50:40 And I’ll tell you the other thing that’s scary to me. You know, biblically there is a passage that where people are, have died, and they’re in front of the Lord, and, uh, they’re on judgment day, so to speak, and they look at God and said, God, you know, I, I casted out demons in your name, and I, you know, preached about you, and so on and so forth, and, and, uh, the Lord looks at them and said, I do not know you. And what he’s saying there is when we’re doing these things for self-satisfaction, don’t matter.

1:51:11 Our hearts have to be sincere in doing this for God. And, you know, one of the things that that troubles me so much, you know, in the New Testament, is that one of the, the times Jesus was very angry was when he looked at the Pharisees and he called them hypocrites. He called him out in front of the masses. He said, you’re not doing this for the people. You’re doing this for yourself.

1:51:32 And that’s scary, because when you reach a point in your life where you know you’re a celebrity in some regards, and it’s a faith, is you gotta, who are you doing this for? And I always try to stay grounded in that regard. You know, I found out, I had this conversation with Darryl Strawberry, you know, you know, you know. I love Darryl. He’s a brother, and I just love him.

1:51:55 And, uh, you know, we we, we did a sit-down recently, and I said, you know, Darryl, I found out that humility in people is such a strong character trait. There’s such strength and humility, especially when you’re a guy of power, and you’re a humble person, and I see that in Darryl, and I see that in a lot of people, and I think, uh, you know, humility is a tremendous characteristic when it’s real and genuine. And so, um, because, you know, what Darryl and I were talking, I don’t care who you are, this life can turn on you in a second.

1:52:29 You know, you know what got me you first thought in my mind when the Shah of Iran, who was worth zillions, had all the power, and he couldn’t beat cancer. He couldn’t beat it. Doesn’t matter how much money you have. I mean, what, you know, life is gonna, is gonna have its toll on you when it’s your time, and you know, we have to realize that we’re nothing. I mean, without you know, God’s grace, we, and humility is very strong.

1:52:56 We should all be humble people, because it’s, it’s one of the biggest strengths we can have. Yeah, but as you said, it’s hard to stay humble when you, you get that celebrity factor, and yes, that’s, that’s when you can actually give back the most. So it’s this constant battle. You have to look in the mirror and have good people around you to keep you focused, because like you said, you know, God will see right through it, and so, and, and the energy will see right through it too.

1:53:20 So you have to be doing it for the right reasons. Absolutely. What keeps you awake at night? Oh gosh, you know, I, I relate something to the other night. Um, I must, I, my wife says that I fight a lot.

1:53:36 In my, not a lot, but, you know, every so often, you know, I, I think that’s when the nightmares come out. And the other, uh, not too long ago rather, I must I had a real fight, and I actually hit my wife in my sleep, and she, like, jumped. What are you doing? This is it. Wasn’t the first time.

1:53:52 I, I think I think some of the old demons come out subconsciously at night. For me, it doesn’t keep me awake. I mean, I sleep pretty good. I don’t have a problem with that, but I think that’s when the demons kind of come out, from, from maybe things that I did in my past, Brian, you know. Um, but not much else keeps me awake.

1:54:11 I’m okay. Do you remember those dreams, or do you just know that there’s some torment going on, and you don’t know exactly what it is, but it’s there? Most of the time I don’t remember them. No, I don’t even know what the issue is or what I’m fighting over. My wife said you’ll hear me say something, and you know, I might even say a curse word, you know, that probably fighting with somebody over something, I don’t know, but, um, that’s when he comes out.

1:54:35 Wow. Well, it’s real, man. I mean, you know, you live that life and you’re here to tell about it, but you’ll always have that inside of you, and so I guess that’s just, you know, I guess that’s part of God’s plan somehow. Well, Brian, I’ll tell you, the demons and experience I had. A very dear friend of mine in that life, he was a made guy with me, and he had a brother that was also in his life, and a father in that life.

1:55:01 So I’m driving him home one day, and, uh, I drop him off, and he said, don’t leave yet, just wait for me a minute, and he goes up to his, uh, house. He opens the door, and I see him there for a second, two seconds, three seconds. He pulls the door, gloves, gets back in the car, and I said, what happened? He’s, well, nobody’s home. I says, but that’s your house.

1:55:24 What do you mean, nobody’s home? And he looked at me, says, Mike, I don’t go in the house when nobody’s home. I said, what do you mean? Turns out, um, him and his brother had killed their father, because the father did something wrong in that life, and the sons were given the contract, and he, and that was 30 years ago, and he said, Mike, I can’t be alone in my house, because the ghost of my father haunts me when I walk in that door. I was like stunned when I heard that, and, uh, he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t go in.

1:55:54 We kept going. I drove him back later on. So I mean, that’s how these things can, can play on you for the rest of your life. Yeah, that’s a good lesson to, to anyone listening. I mean, you can think you got away with something, but it’ll always catch up to you, and that’s why solitary is so hard, I think, on people, because you get to reflect on all the things you’ve done, and it will come back to you, and you will have to try to resolve that stuff at some point.

1:56:21 You know, there’s no, absolutely. And in solitary, all you can do is think, think. I mean, everything comes into your head. You know, I, I have, I have a gift. My wife tells me that I, I, I’m gifted in that I’m able to put, at least in my activity during my day, when I’m conscious, put the past behind me and move on, you know, and, and, uh, one of the things that I don’t get disappointed a lot, because I realize if something I wanted is not accomplished, it wasn’t meant to be, and I just move on, and I have, I’m able to put things behind me in that way, and I think that was, uh, that was important for me in my life.

1:56:58 I was able to just always move forward and not look back. Yeah, that’s really good advice. I was watching a special about the, the prison that El Chapo is going to. It’s this maximum security prison, I think, in Arizona, and they were talking about, you know, the extreme solitary confinement that he’ll be in for the rest of his life, and some of the people that are there now, and it just sounds, you know, just sounds horrible, and, you know, people end up mutilating themselves and having conversation.

1:57:25 It’s just, it’s just it sounds like if you’ve done enough bad things in your life, you’re there to sit with them, and it literally will eat you up from the inside. Oh no, no doubt, Brian. You know, I always say this, um, I have a heart for people in prison, because even though they committed the crime, uh, and they’re, they’re suffering the consequences of their actions, they still have to go through it, and they’re still human beings, and it’s still difficult, even, even when you’re guilty, and you got to have compassion for that.

1:57:55 You know, um, because you still got to do the time, and you still got to go through everything that goes with it, and it’s difficult. Guilty, innocent, doesn’t matter. It’s still, it’s still very painful. You got to have compassion for people in prison. I look at it that way.

1:58:09 Yeah, no, that’s really well said, Michael. I was finished with a few questions. I’m going to ask you now, if you could pick up a magic phone, uh, that, that could ring up the 20-year-old Michael Franzese and give that young man some advice? I think at that age maybe you’re right on the edge of going into the life or thinking about it. Um, if you could speak to him, what would you tell him?

1:58:54 Yeah, you’re so right, Michael, and I’ve had quite a few guests on here talking about, you know, that very piece from Candace Owens that talks about it in the black community, to other people talking about it in the general community, and it’s really like two or three questions. You know, was your father there when you were growing up? And like a couple of, did you, uh, graduate college without having a baby? And like one other question, and if those were like, yes, yes, yes, 90-some percent of the time you’re okay, and if they were no’s, a lot of times there’s problems.

1:59:21 You know, and, uh, and it’s an issue, and it’s something we’re gonna have to address, and we’re gonna, we’re feeling it now, and we’re gonna feel it more if that doesn’t happen. And I remember those shows, I remember Leave It to Beaver, these, these, these corny examples of the 50s couple. You know, but, um, but it’s, you know, it’s there for a reason, because it worked. And well, compare that family to Modern Family. That show, I mean, you know, I mean, and these were, these, this is the influence that these kids have, and it’s, uh, it’s a shame.

1:59:52 And by the way, I have a lot of respect for Candace Owens. She’s, she’s terrific. She really, she’s amazing. Uh, we’ve had on the show a couple times as well, and, uh, we’ve had her husband on, we’re about to have her, uh, father-in-law as well. So I’m a big fan of her.

2:00:05 I just, I really appreciate her courage. She’s uh, she stands up to, she stands up to bigger mobs than anyone I’ve seen stand up to, really, and she’s right on point. She’s intelligent, you know. She’s well informed, and, uh, boy, I respect her, and I really appreciate, you know, her voice. I really do.

2:00:23 Yeah, we appreciate her very much as well, and this great message that everyone needs to hear, uh, and these are powerful things to have out there. So yeah, I’m looking forward to, uh, getting those messages out there with more people. So, uh, so I appreciate your time here, Michael. How can people, uh, follow you on YouTube? How can we get the next book, etc.?

2:00:40 And by the way, I watch a lot of YouTube channel, and I’m really glad you’re doing it, and I started mine nine years ago, almost to the day, and, uh, it’s important to have your own media channel, and you realize that early on, and the truth is, is that you got to find your way as well, and, uh, you’re a great example of just jumping in and, and, you know, just pushing forward. So how do people find out more about how to contact you? Well, again, YouTube, I think it’s at Michael Franzese, and then I’m on all social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook, uh, Twitter, and, uh, I have my website, is michaelfranzese.com.

2:01:14 And that’s when you can enter my community, and, uh, you know, enlist in the coaching community that we have, and we really encourage people to do that, and, uh, really that’s it. You know, watch for this television series that’ll be out next year, I’m sure. The book, I think they’re going to start pre-selling it in December, a mafia democracy, and, um, you know, I might be doing this, uh, this new documentary with that, uh, National Geographic, and we just got a lot of things going on, so I’m out there.

2:01:41 Just Google me, you’ll see everything. And are we gonna get Scorsese to direct the movie about your life? No, uh, somebody is very high profile. Director, you’re gonna love him, I guarantee it. And the producer is probably one of the biggest producers in the business, tremendously successful.

2:01:58 Again, they don’t want me to announce anything yet. They’re killing me. They won’t let me, but you’ll hear it soon. That’s exciting. We haven’t had a good, you know, mob movie in a while.

2:02:06 Right. Well, this is a television series. Originally when we sat down to talk about a movie, they said, Michael, there’s so much content here. Yeah, we want to do a series, and, uh, they said, are you okay with that? I said, yeah, you know, look, whatever medium it is, as long as it’s done correctly or authentically, and, uh, it tells the story the right way, I’m okay with it.

2:02:26 Yeah, no, it’s actually true. I’m glad you’re doing that, because this episodic content is a great way to pack all the information in. And, uh, I mean, you know, you were in the movie business for a long time. The problem with the movie is, you know, you got to cut so much out just to get that arc in there, and so it can always be good, but it’s never going to be all the good stuff. So yeah, and you know, between my book and, uh, because I have a co-writer with me, because when my publisher came to me, they said, Michael, were you right?

2:02:54 Because I’ve, I’ve written all my other books. I said, yeah, but I’ll probably deliver it in like 2025. I said, I’m gonna need some help writing this, so I paired up with a great investigative journalist that I’m writing with. He’s terrific, and I’m spending probably four hours, five hours a week with him, and then I’m spending another four hours a week with the screenplay. Right?

2:03:13 I mean, the scriptwriter for the television series. So it’s taken up a lot of time, but these guys are brilliant, and, uh, I’m, I’m really pleased with the job that they’re doing so far. So it’s gonna be great. It must feel great to be working with great people on exciting projects. No, absolutely.

2:03:29 Remember, do what you do best, delegate the rest. So I’ve got a, I’ve got a great team around me, and look, teamwork is everything. You don’t do anything by yourself, you know. You got to have the right people around you, and even in my, uh, my coaching team in my community, uh, my partner Kurt, um, you know, they do all the content. I don’t do any of that.

2:03:46 I mean, as far as putting it online, I create the content along with them, but they monitor everything for me, and they manage it, and again, it’s great teamwork. People that are dedicated, they love what they’re doing, and you know, hopefully you get the best result, and, uh, you know, I feel really blessed to have good people around me. I love it, Michael. Uh, come see us when you come to the UK for your tour over here, if that’s still on for next year.

2:04:10 Uh, we do even better one in person. Uh, we can show you the whole studio and stuff, um, but look, I really appreciate what you do, and again, I really appreciate two things. First of all, that you’re open and honest about your faith. I think that that’s great that you put that out there, and just, you know, you’re, you’re authentic with who you are. And the second thing is, I like how you don’t just tell a story to tell a story.

2:04:30 There’s always a message in there. There’s always a deeper message of, you know, this happened, and this is what we did, and this is why there was a flaw in that, or this is what I learned from that. And, um, yeah, I appreciate all your stuff. Your, your YouTube channel is incredible, and a lot of the other interviews you do are great, and Fear City is really good as well, on Netflix. I encourage people to see it, and it goes to show you that this genre will never die.

2:04:51 It’s going to be around for probably hundreds of years, because there’s something fascinating about it. It’s romantic. It speaks to us about family and the clan and legal versus illegal, and I mean, you guys did it the best from the 50s to the 80s, so it’s great to see. And again, I got a new look onto something that I didn’t know much about, about in a city I lived in, and it put a lot of clarity as far as what happened. So I’m sure the stuff you’re going to produce is going to do the same.

2:05:15 So thank you, Michael. I really appreciate this, and like I said, next time let’s do this in person. I appreciate it, and I promise you, you know, we get to, uh, to London, I’ll, I’ll definitely come in and see. I’ll let you know in advance, and we’ll spend time together. Be great.

2:05:28 All right. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Michael. Everybody follow this man. Check out his YouTube channel.

2:05:32 It’s incredible. In his community, everyone says great things about it as well, so appreciate you, Michael, and thanks so much for everybody for tuning in, and we will see you next time on London Real. take care.