Full transcript: Marc Goddard on London Real
4:03 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. With me today is Mr. Matthew Silik, who is a personal trainer and a former Slovak amateur kickboxer. I believe, yeah, you could say that, something like that. And our guest today is Mr. Marc Goddard, who is considered one of the best mixed martial arts referees in the business.
4:40 He is a former MMA fighter himself, which, I think, 16 fights, correct me if I’m wrong, including two with our former guest James “The Colossus” Thompson, who was sitting there like a week ago. It’s a small world here in England, isn’t it? It’s a small, it’s very incestuous, is MMA? You are also refereeing tonight’s broadcast of UFC on Fuel at Wembley Arena in like just a few hours. So, thank you for coming.
5:07 And welcome. Thanks for having me. You’re also a founder of Safe MMA, which I believe is a fully recognized governing body with the new Safety Code for MMA fighters, which I do want to talk about at some point, but not a governing body. Oh, it’s not a governing body. Okay, we’re going to get to all those details.
5:22 We’ll get on that. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, I’m going to just jump in right now and, uh, and just say, I mean, for people that don’t know, you know, referees and boxing are one thing, but referees in MMA, in my opinion, are just a crucial element of the safety of the fighters and of the fight’s outcome. So quite simply, how do you know when to stop a fight? Um, to me it’s, I’m not going to say it’s easy, because I don’t mean stopping a, I don’t mean the role of a referee is easy, because of course it’s not, but I have the same uh motto now that I’ve, that I’ve had for a number of years, and, you know, I’ve written about in articles, etc., and it’s, it’s simple.
6:07 You know, come time of a fight, when I walk in the cage, my job is to let the fight play in front of me, and protect the fighters. That’s it. All the other add-ons and variables, they’re all going through the conveyor belt of my mind. You know, they’re making sure they’re sticking to the rules, not doing anything illegal, etc., etc. So those things just happen.
6:32 I just, my job is to stay out of the way. It’s the fighters’ time. It’s their fight. I just let the fight play out and keep them safe. In a nutshell, that’s what I do.
6:44 Okay. And are there guidelines that you, I mean, you travel all the way around the world, and you go to different countries. Does each country have different guidelines in terms of, as, in terms of refereeing, or is it all pretty much the same? Are you the same ref in Brazil that you’re in America, in the UK? Well, from on a personal front, yes.
7:01 I mean, you know, I’m on Marc, and yeah, are you talking from a rules set, or, yeah, do the rules change at all? No, you have tiny little things, but they’re more or less US-based, but, you know, the competitors fight under what’s commonly heard as the Unified Rules of MMA. They’re out there. That’s what we officiate under, and that’s what the jurisdiction that the fighters are under as well. Okay.
7:29 These, the rules, like the no 90° elbows, are all this, don’t do this, everything else. Fight is code and conduct. Okay. Now, do you, were you part of contributing to those rules, or do they, do those rules change, and who decides if those rules do change? Well, the Unified Rules came around, that were adopted in the United States, because generally in, in a historical sense, modern-day mixed martial arts as we know it, it was US-based, obviously, with a birth of the UFC, etc.
8:01 You know, there is varying degrees of, um, you know, mixed martial arts before that. You know, in Brazil, vale tudo, Pancrase, Japan. The, the history is there, and it’s wide and varied, and it’s deep and it’s long. Um, but the Unified Rules, I, it’s something that I actually go through when I do my seminars for the refs and judges. It was much like we find ourselves in the UK, in territories that don’t have governing bodies, commissions.
8:29 You could have a different rule set in London, Birmingham. You know, show to show, things are very different, and they sort of had the same thing in the US, but of course what the US have, state by state, is athletic commissions. Yeah. And they govern the sport, and then there was, uh, a few founder members that got together, and obviously some of the leading athletic commissions got together, and they adopted the Unified Rules. And they just wanted the sport for, you know, for recognition, for safety, to look the same and be applied the same no matter where they went.
9:04 Okay. And can you walk us through what’s going to happen with you today? I know you got a meeting at 1:00. The prelims probably start, I don’t know, is it 5 or 6:00? Do you know how many fights you’re going to be refereeing, and, you know, what’s, what’s fight day like for you?
9:15 You seem pretty relaxed. Uh, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m cool. In, you know, I’ve been doing this a long time, and, uh, fight day for me, I mean, once I get to the arena, and, you know, it’s a bit like when I was fighting. You know, people say, are you not nervous? Yes, I’m nervous, but it makes me perform.
9:34 You know, it’s a bit like when, uh, when a fighter fights. If you go, he’s scared. Any fighter that tells me he’s not scared when he fights, I think he’s lying. Some people, uh, it’s what you do with that fear. Fear is an emotion you can’t control.
9:48 If I’m hungry, I’m tired, you know, it’s an emotion, and we get the same sort of thing. You know, obviously, I’m very conscious of where I am, of what I’m doing, the fact that it’s going out to millions around the world, but, uh, it just comes down to me, you know, doing my job on the day. Typically, like I said, today we have a commission meeting at 1:00. That’s really where, you know, the judges, the, the timekeeper, referees will all get together, and, you know, anything in particular needs to be brought up or or be spoke about.
10:27 You know, that’s, this really, it’s an internal meeting, just to make sure that we’re all, you know, present and correct and above board, and anything that’s specific has to be, um, relayed to us or read out to us. That’s typically where it will happen. Okay. And, and something I heard in an interview with you recently, you don’t know the fights you’ll be refereeing tonight. Most common question people ask me, do you know?
10:49 Sometimes they’ll release to us, uh, main events or title, they’ll say, you know, they might give us the nod and tell us. But typically, you know, in the interest of, you know, as a referee, it’s all about being, you know, um, Mr. Impartial, right, or Mrs. Impartial. But it’s all about being Mr. Impartial, so we do not get our assignments until we actually arrive at the arena that evening. So for instance, today I will probably get my assignments at 3:00 p.m., depending on what time we, we, we report to Wembley.
11:27 That’s when we get them. Okay. And how many fights will you ref tonight? Again, I don’t know. Okay, it’s kind of like a mission, isn’t it?
11:33 You just don’t really want to know. Even, you know, you know a lot of fighters yourself, so obviously it’s better not to know, and just kind of get out there with a clear mind. Of course, it just, it just, you know, the UFC, the, the very, um, that’s what I’m looking for. The very, you know, they’re thoughtful and cautious on that, because, typically, you know, we’re in the same hotel and, you know, we’re there with fighters, and they just want to remove every possible element of, you know, because if you knew two days in advance that I was refereeing you, you know, it just, it just removes, you know, the need for anyone to say, oh well, what saw you talking to him in the lift, or, you know, and it’s like, you know, the UK scene.
12:18 I’ve grown up with this sport, you know, since day dot, as it were, and a lot of the fighters who I will encounter, you know, we are friends. Should we say not them personally? Yeah, of course. You know, we grew up in the same scene, and we fought on the same shows. We may have trained together in the past, but we just, it’s just all about being the professional, you know, and retaining integrity.
12:42 That’s what it is for me, and when the UFC, or when we get our assignments as late as possible, it just kind of underlines that, and it just removes anyone you know, trying to, you know, saying anything inappropriate. I was wondering how you, cuz I always look at the refs, and I look at, you know, all the pros like yourself, Herb Dean, all these guys, and I’m, I’m thinking, you know, in your mind you’re going to be objective and impartial, but then, you know, as a human, that by definition, as a human, you are going to be partial to certain situations. So how do you even take your mind a step further and make sure that you don’t creep back into those, those, you know, feelings of, you know, partiality.
13:22 Tell me, what do you mean by that? What situation would I be, so, you know, you, you know, one fighter in the UK, you might have trained in the past, you know, you’ve seen fights from another fighter, and you’re in there refereeing, and you know that you have a human brain that’s processing all these things, and also processing your emotions. I mean, is there a step that you take it further just to continually remind yourself that these are A and B fighters, and that, I don’t know, their personalities?
13:48 That’s exactly as you said. Um, if I had a relationship with you in the past, and that could be as innocuous as we, we, you know, I mean, as I said, you know, we just grew up, but I’m always, I, for the last number of years I have to be conscious of. I say the same thing on the seminars, you know, as an official, as a referee, it’s the whole package. You’re not, you know, one of the things with a referee, we’re not just under review come fight time. We’re constantly under review, you know, because I could share, you know, a particular instance or anything with a fighter, and I get, all in the back of my mind, I have to think about how that may be perceived.
14:32 I have to be careful, and I just don’t want to open myself up to. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of idiots out there, right? Let’s underline that, you know, in the big world of the internet, and they don’t need a second invitation to, you know, get on the forums and, and say this, that, and the other. But, look, one of my, one of my strongest points, you know, anyone who knows, knows me will tell you, you know, my values and, and my integrity. That’s kind of what I built my reputation on.
15:05 Do you keep to yourself in the, in the hotel? Do you just try to, like, it’s weird, cuz they put you all up at the Hilton out there, I think, but I mean, you just try to stay in your room. Yeah, we just, I mean, obviously you know, again, it’s about being sensible. You know, you won’t come in and you won’t see me sat there with a fighter, you know, with my arm around him and having fun, and, you know, having a drink, and I, me, you know, maybe after the fight we’ll have a, you know, a catch-up or a chat, or this, that and the other.
15:31 But again, it’s about assuming that role. I’m an official. It’s like a fighter fights when the bell starts. Yeah, sorry, when you know, when, when, when the whistle starts in the B, you know, you know what I mean? He fights then.
15:44 When he comes out of that time, his time is done. But I’m always, you know, as an official, it’s kind of we have to be, uh, we have to be seen to be thoughtful at all times. Okay. And fight week is one of those times, you know. So pretty much, after a fight, you don’t want to be in the spotlight.
16:02 That’s pretty much a referee’s done a good job if there is no talk about you. You really know you’ve hit the nail on the head, because you know, if there’s no talk about you, that means you’ve done a good job, and you’re, I said it before, you know, a referee, his sole reward for just doing his job, right, is people don’t talk s*** about you. Exactly. And you know, I’m cool with that. I don’t mind.
16:25 Okay. Um, you know, as a referee, you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t, and people always have an opinion. Christ, everyone have an opinion, and I don’t want to take that away from people, but, you know, sometimes it’s what I find hard to swallow. It’s just, it’s the ignorance that I don’t like, you know, and the downright abuse. There’s plenty of that.
16:47 Oh my God, it’s just from fans, ignorant of the rules, and yeah, just, you know, I mean, look, it’s, I’ve had people like in the past, it’s, it’s, I mean, I can laugh about it now. You know, I’ve had people, people, it’s like, you know, social media, you have a here, you have this thing, there, where you can engage directly with the biggest, I’m not the biggest, I’m not a big star in the world, I’m, uh, thought, you know, you can engage directly. I can send a personal message to you, and we didn’t have that years ago.
17:21 Yeah. And it, the content of that message can, can be anything, and, uh, I’ve had a fair few messages in the past, but, but, you know, I can laugh about them now. I have people tweeting me that want me to die. Do you have to report death threats to the UFC? No.
17:36 Okay. John John anx said he had to do that once. Did he? Yeah, I guess, his policy. He just reported, even if it’s, like, it was a tweet.
17:42 Someone said, like, if you come to this town in California, I will kill you, and it was just like, Jesus. I know, someone tweeted me that they wanted me to die, and the reason they wanted me to die is because I stood a fight up. That’s it. Okay. Now we talk about this.
17:55 I don’t think I’ve seen this before, but you’re good buddy Matt Riddle, who is fighting tonight, has kind of called you out recently, and I don’t think I remember a fighter calling out a ref, but I don’t know if he’s trying to get attention for himself or whatever, but he was saying he doesn’t feel safe having you in the cage. He doesn’t think you’re educated enough, and he said he can refuse to fight if you’re refereeing, and I wanted to give you a chance to respond to that. Uh, what he says, you know, I want to respond to it.
18:22 Um, but again, going back to what I said earlier, in the realms of assuming the role at all times. Um, you know, Matt said what he said. Um, it took me by surprise. Has that happened before, where a fighter’s called that a ref? Well, well, look, in all my time on the sport, I’ve never been insinuated that I was a cheat, and that’s what Matt did.
18:46 Is that what he’s doing? Well, unfortunately, you know, saying that I B, if you say I bias a particular fighter, you’re casting aspersions on my character. It then goes beyond the realms of having an opinion. But, you know, look, I’m still mindful and respectful, and if I was to referee Matt Riddle, I would still afford him exactly the same level of courtesy and professionalism, um, as a wood prior. It’s, you know, it’s no biggie to me.
19:18 Am I disappointed in what he said? Yes, I am, because factually it was incorrect. Very incorrect. Um, but I don’t know. I think I might get round to answering that in more detail, but again, you know, obviously, as you can tell, I’m still mindful of the fact that, you know, I’m a professional, and he’s a professional.
19:40 In terms of, you know, he’s got his job to do tonight. He, his mind needs to be fully focused on the fight, and that’s what it is, and my mind is fully focused on my role and my task in hand. And what happens if he does draw, you can, he refuse to fight? Yeah, sure, he can, and I haven’t got a problem with that. can he request a referee change?
19:59 Are there rules he can? You can’t. I mean, again, it’s, you know, with, it’s like the traveling commission in the UK, but, you know, uh, Mark Ratner is the man who assigns the fight. You know who Mark is? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for the UFC.
20:14 Yeah, Mark’s an incredible guy. You know, I have nothing but admiration and respect for, you know, for that man. Um, but, you know, he will decide ultimately, and, and, you know, we’ll talk it out, and like I said, would like to say more, um, about that situation, but being mindful and being thoughtful, um, I’m, look, I’m a professional. Totally respect that. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s very hard for people to get their head around.
20:45 Never happened to me before that way. I remember a few fighters saying a few things about refs, like after the fact, but I don’t remember a pre-fight call-out, but then again, I was disappointed in Gareth. Uh, okay. You know, I spoke to Gareth about it yesterday, because Davies, who was our guest last, yeah, Gareth was my pal, you know, and I helped him out a lot when he, when you know, we, we speak a lot on the phone and stuff, and I like him. You know, a lot of people give him heat, and this, but I guess you take it a bit differently when, when it’s somebody that you don’t know, does it on the net.
21:13 You know, talks a lot, but you, compared to somebody that you know personally, is going to hurt a lot more. Look, what it is, what say I want to know, I’ll get back to that. I’m making the point here: you can have an opinion on me and on something, a decision I made. I’m cool with that. You may disagree with me.
21:32 I’m cool with that. We can talk it out, we might not talk it out, and at the end of it you may still agree. That’s one thing. You have an opinion on. What, what, what we did that crossed the realms of having an opinion.
21:46 It wasn’t an opinion anymore. He made a statement on, were, two things. One, that I was biased to, um, non-UK fighters, which I, you know, I mean, like I said, it’s incredible, and the second was I need to be educated in the sport. Brother, I was in this thing before you knew what it was, you know. And I like I said, you know, even have, look, as I said before, if I, if, if I was to referee, um, Matt, again, you know, he said what he said.
22:22 Obviously, he thinks he’s got his reason for doing it. I would afford him exactly the same level of courtesy, detail, and professionalism, um, and, you know, it’s funny, because I actually second, when, when I heard, you know, this instance come out. I’ll come back to the Gareth thing in a minute. When I heard the instance come out, and I was like, hang on a minute, this fight was, what, four years ago? Oh, really?
22:44 That long ago? Well, what was it? 3 years. It was in UFC 105, Manchester. Yeah.
22:49 Where are we now? UFC 158? Something like that. I was like, I can’t remember that, so I second-guess myself, and he actually, there was a stone gun, he stood me up five times in a round. You don’t, you would have remembered that.
23:04 Come on, bro. Um, so I went back and I watched the fight. Uh, the fight was 14 minutes long, give or take. Matt lost the fight via TKO, so I had to come in and do my job and help him and get him out of there. He was in a bad spot.
23:21 You know, Nicah Ship Shack uh, M swept him, mounted him, and he won by TKO. So I guess if we go to the point of Matt not feeling safe having me as a ref, that kind of don’t add up, because I had to get him out of there. Um, you know, and going back to the standups, this is mixed martial arts. Uh, there was one standup in the first round, not because of inactivity, because Matt headbutted his opponent. So that was the first standup.
23:55 So I guess if anybody wants to worry about feeling safe in there, it’s, you know, I mean, I, and then there was a standup in the second round, purely because, you know, the actions not flowing, and one in the third. So there was a grand total of two standups in 14 minutes of fighting, not five in one round. Um, so I mean, like I said, you know, I just found it, I was at a loss when, you know, I heard it. And then it started to develop, you know. Gareth ran this story, um, he said about, he was, you know, Brit-bashing, and this.
24:31 Look, that’s just part and parcel of the fight business, you know. He’s, Matt’s doing his thing, you know, it’s his personality, wants to get, um, you know, a bit of interest in the fight, a bit of, he said, he said that at the press conference, man, I want to get interested in this fight, cuz one of the fans spat at him I think before the fight last time, and he was just, if that happened, of course you can’t condone that. That’s disgusting, you know. That’s not, obviously, it’s not a true reflection on all Brits.
24:57 Yeah, um, but then it crossed into the referee, and then he started talking about the referee. This is before the press conference, and I saw Gareth run this story, was like, and you, you didn’t like the fact that he ran the story? Uh, no, not that I didn’t like, but I said to Gareth, I said, look, GTH, I said, you know, I, I’m one of the most vocal in terms of, um, referees being more open and being allowed. Look, it’s like a referee’s right to remain silent, and generally it is.
25:28 You know, people can disagree with our decisions, and I’ll just let it lie. Sometimes I, I like to interact with the fans and try and help from an educational point of view, just to say, look, um, this is why, you know, we do what we did, and try and correct them on the rule set. You know, that’s the one thing, like I said, you know, it’s the ignorance side that I try and help out on, but, um, you know, when it crosses that, well, when it goes beyond having an opinion and it became more personal, that’s what, uh, I sort of had a difficulty with, you know.
26:03 And I said to Gareth, going back to the point with GTH, I said to Gareth, look, you know, I understand what you’re doing. You know, you have a job, you know, as a reporter, and, and this. And GTH was just running a story, like I said, you know, he’s my friend. I like him and we talk a lot. And then at the press conference, it was, it was right at the end of the press conference.
26:24 And Gareth threw my name in there, you know, which I didn’t really, I didn’t want that to happen, because then Matt had a, a question, a situation that he had to answer, right? And it’s sort of spilled on from there. And then that sort of leaves me in, everyone’s tweeting me and asking me, what are you going to do about this? And I’m like, I haven’t said anything till now. So you haven’t responded?
26:47 No, you know, sort of a little bit. Now I’ve touched on it. You know, there was the two points. One was the things that stuck with me was the, you know, it went away from having an opinion into something more personal. Yeah, strong accusations.
27:03 I mean, there’s even potentially libel, as those accusations. Yeah. I mean, so I’m just, I think, you know, as well, that you didn’t respond straight away, it could be better for you, because you’re just kind of letting it cool down. I want to sleep on it. You know, emal, yeah, I don’t want to.
27:18 And, look, if you want to enter into a discussion, a debate, an argument, there’s one thing I ask for, you know, and that’s just, let’s, the facts. That’s all I want to, all I want to, all I want to exchange in is, you know, the facts. But look, at the end of the day, like I said, it’s, I mean, I said we don’t really want to talk about it about. But look, it is what it is, and, like I said, you know, yes, sleeping on it and, and not coming out and being rash, and being felt that I had to say something.
27:51 At the end of the day, do I still respect Matt Riddle as a fighter? Yes, I do, because that’s my job, and I have to. Okay. No, fair enough. I’m glad you responded, and I’m, you know, I would expect nothing less from you, you know, with that kind of integrity.
28:05 Thank you. We’ve seen some pretty serious knockouts in the last year or two in the UFC. There was one at The Ultimate Fighter. I don’t know if you watched that show, where it was the spinning kick to the head, where this guy was just out, and he looked really bad, and we’ve seen a few other, you know, pretty brutal knockouts in the UFC. Do you think we’re going to, in time, see a death in the UFC, and if we do, how, how is the world going to respond to that?
28:28 I hope not. Of course, you know, that’s like the ultimate travesty. Um, and a death, I don’t think, saying death in the UFC, a death in mixed martial arts, because it could be in another promotion, in another city, in another part of the world. You know, the law of averages, and you know, statistics playing a part, will there come a time when maybe someone will lose their life? Obviously, as I said, you know, everybody’s got everything crossed that it doesn’t happen, but as long as we arm ourselves, um, with the best possible chance of remaining credible, and, you know, look, it’s a contact sport.
29:07 The, the object of the game is to, you know, is, is to finish your opponent. The same in boxing, you know, slightly different in boxing, because the object of the game is to be punched around the head and body. You think it’s safer in boxing? Because I don’t know if you know this argument, but the argument in boxing is you get knocked down, they stand you back up, and you take hundreds of blows to the where Arts. You take one with gloves, and Mark’s going to come in there and it do you subscribe to that?
29:36 I think statistically, MMA hasn’t been around long enough to, to make a fair comparison. Okay, but if you look at the facts, you know, the object of boxing is to punch you in the head and body. That’s it. In mixed martial arts, I can punch you in the head and body, I can kick you to the legs, to the arms, to the head. I can clinch.
30:00 I can take you down. I can submit you. I can wrestle. The sole object of mixed martial arts is not one, um, you know, to render your opponent finish purely by concussive blows. There is other options.
30:13 There is other ways and means, and of course there’s no standing eight counts. In, you know, in MMA, what, what, you know, when you’re done, you’re done. You know, you’re out. Yeah, um, so that second-impact syndrome is removed. But like I said, I mean, I think MMA needs to be around a lot longer in terms of running some form of statistical study.
30:36 Um, but look, there’s always been that argument. I mean, I think, you know, from my, I’m not a doctor, I’m not a neurologist, but obviously I have firsthand experience, and yeah, you know, with, you know, with the boxing, you know, you wear bigger gloves, etc., so the arguments there for that. Uh, you know, um, having more of a concussive impact as opposed to a small 4an glove where the impact is, you know, should we say, more superficial. But I think, you know, in short, to answer that question, you know, that is it safe or is it not?
31:09 Um, I think it needs to, sorry, MMA needs to be around for a little while longer before we can make that DET dra comp. Yeah, some form of, you know, a statistical comparison and not just guess work. You know, you’ve got quite a background in MMA as a fighter yourself. I would, I mean, I haven’t seen, you know, I know Herb Dean has fought, and a few other refs, but I think you might have one of the biggest careers in fighting. But I know I please answer that, but I, I see some of these new refs, and, you know, I’m, I’m, I think we should have female refs in the business, but there’s this, there’s this woman I see in Vegas with the big long ponytail, and yeah, Kim, and maybe I’m WR with this, but sometimes it seems like the, it’s more about her and less about the fighters, and I’m just wondering, does she have MMA experience?
31:53 Is it important, and are there some refs out there that shouldn’t be there? Um, I know they’re your colleagues, but, yeah, they’re my colleagues, and I’m not going to throw them under the bus. You know, fair enough. But if I saw something that was bad, or I didn’t agree with, would I call it? Yeah, I would call it, and I would talk about it.
32:14 Um, it’s a longstanding argument about referees having experienced, and it comes back to sort of like this ignorance thing again. Look, I’m just Marc. I’m just a ref, you know. I’m just me. I’m not a star.
32:26 The fighters of the stars, people don’t know about me, people in the UK and Europe that, you know, and obviously in other parts of the world, but when people in, you know, the biggest audience in the US, you know, they may see, they don’t know about my past. You know, they’ll just make assumptions. And do you have to have fought mixed martial arts to have to, to be able to officiate? No, I don’t say you do. Okay.
32:55 Do you have to have a form of practical experience, training, whatever it may be? Absolutely, yes. You cannot come into this sport from another walk of life, or from another sport, without having any grounding. Do you think a blue belt should be required for refs? No, okay, because it’s not a Jiu-Jitsu match.
33:15 Well, but there’s Jiu-Jitsu involved, right? Yeah. So what do you have to have? What’s your wrestling credentials, what’s your boxing credentials? Maybe there should be those too.
33:24 What’s your, what’s your mixed martial arts credentials? Look, not every, you have all those credentials, yeah, you know. It’s, look, like I said, going back to the thing. Look, there’s some, look at my colleague Leon Roberts in the UK, right? Leon’s never fought, but he’s been around MMA for a long time, and he’s never fought.
33:41 Is he a world-class official? Absolutely. Leon is, you know, he’s, I’m not just saying because he’s my friend or certain the other, and he’s a go-to example. He’s someone who hasn’t fought, and yes, me and Herb have fought. Herb’s only had a couple of fights, and then we, we laugh about this and the other, but it’s, I mean, Herb’s a fantastic referee.
34:02 Yeah, how many fights have you had? Uh, blind me? Uh, professional. I was 14 pros. Okay.
34:08 Um, and you know, back in the days of amateur and semi and everything else, but I’ve competed a lot, extensively, in wrestling, submission grappling as well. That’s more than any other ref, but much more. Okay. And this is what happened. Look, does that make me a better person?
34:25 No, does it. But it’s like I try to, to get that out there to people, you know, going back to the thing about, do you have to have fought to understand? No, and I use, you know, Leon as an example, respected by everyone, respected by me, world-class official, never fought. You know what I mean? Okay.
34:46 Um, but coming back to me, has it stood me in good stead? Almost certainly. Okay. It gives me that sixth sense. I understand the fight business on a psychological level.
34:56 It’s so, I’ve often said, you know, when I referee, I referee from my heart, not just my mind, you know, because I can sympathize, and I can put myself in the position, and I’ve done it many times, you know, um, and, you know, you watch fighters. I know what’s going through their mind and how they feel, and, you know, like I said, I think it’s unfair, um, to put a stipulation having levels of referees, but it’s the same as any sport. Would you have a football referee, never kick the ball?
35:29 Yeah, I strongly agree on that one. I mean, I come from the fitness industry, and I’ve seen trainers come in the industry, you know, straight off a course, not too much experience from the gym themselves, and how are you going to teach people to get their results if you haven’t achieved anything yourself? So pretty much the same thing happens in fighting. You know, how are you going to feel how that, how are you going to know how that fighter feels when he gets hit?
35:50 You know, those kind of… But Marc’s saying that you don’t need to have fought, but you need to have trained. I think you need experience, some sort of experience. Yeah, you must have, because, look, if I go for a driving lesson and I get in the car, a driving instructor sat in the back, well, I don’t drive, I’m going to be a little bit nervous. You know, I’m going to be a little bit nervous.
36:12 Having that, the demarcation between what level of experience is, often, you know, it’s tossed about and it’s discussed. Do you, like I said, is it a definitive? You must have thought to be a referee? No, okay. Do you train to be a referee?
36:31 Absolutely. Okay. So the blue belt minimum isn’t such a crazy idea that I had. I can see where you’re going with it. Yeah.
36:39 I mean, look, put it this way, if you, if you said, look, I was just a jiu-jitsu guy, I’ve done this the other, then, look, yes, of course, you have an understanding of the, one of the elements of the practicalities of the sport. You, you’ll know when two fighters are engaging on the floor, what they’re doing, what they’re going for, if they’re going for anything, etc. Of course it’s going to stand you in better stead than a guy who’s, I just want to be a referee.
37:03 Okay. That’s kind of like saying that, in personal training, you need to be able to lift 100 kilo bench press for you to be a personal trainer. You don’t. Yeah, but you need, but you, you need to have the experience, and you need to kind of know what it feels like, you know. I think I heard it was, I think it was Josh Rosenthal, which is another, uh, you know, famous, uh, ref in MMA, and I think it was maybe the Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin fight, but I think he, he went and talked to him in the locker room beforehand and said we do okay, yeah, and said if you’re in trouble, I’m going to Audible and say, you know, uh, blah blah blah blah.
37:33 What’s your routine? We’re talking with fighters, and do you always speak to fighters before fight? When we get our assignments tonight, right, we go and talk to the fighters. We’ll introduce ourselves, um, and they know who the referee is. Um, I always ask them a question.
37:50 Ask them the question: is there anything you would like me to clarify, particularly when we travel, you know, with foreign fighters, and obviously foreign, depending on where we’re fighting in the world. But what if they don’t speak English? Well, they’ll have an interpreter. Generally, okay, they generally have an interpreter. That’s tricky, sometimes, you’re yelling at them, like you know, sometimes, but fighting is universal, so the language of punch and kick is universal, but if you’re yelling at them, fight back, fight back, or I’m going to stop this fight.
38:16 Uh, they don’t speak English? No, no, yeah, I can understand, but what I always say, I say to the, to the, to their translator, if you hear me say something, sh out, that’s still a tall order in a cage in Brazil. They’re yelling. Look, there’s a thing like when a fight is under fire and a fighter is under pressure, don’t, don’t ask him a question. It’s like, do you mind?
38:40 Do you mind? Can you see I’m a bit preoccupied here? I always say to people, look, I make a statement. The only time I’m going to ask a fighter or a question is when he’s coherent enough to look at me and answer back. That’s a break in the action.
38:53 Okay, I can’t say, because you know going, going back, is, if a thought isn’t of here, rest before going? Do you want out? Do you want out, and they, yeah, is that yes, is it no? Yeah, as a referee you have to protect yourself from those sort of instances, and what I say is, you make a statement. What’s a statement?
39:11 You might make: defend yourself, protect yourself, get out of there. Okay, nothing with a question. Okay, of course that guy doesn’t need to be preoccupied with answering what he thought you said. Yeah, you know, but yeah, there, excuse me, the translation thing sometimes is a little uh tricky, but generally, you know, like I said, the fighters are there to, you know, to do their job. Uh, you generally, you know, I can physically mine, um, for things, you know: hold in the fence, or this, or touch their hand if they’re grabbing the shorts, etc., but right, never say never, you know, because MMA, I’ve always said, there’s things every day that get thrown up that I’m like, how did that happen?
39:54 Do you ever get run over by fighters in the cage? Cuz you guys have to really move, cuz sometimes those guys are all over that cage. I mean, you mean in terms of the fight? But if they ever, like, knock into you? Because you, I mean, no, I’d be a bit annoyed with myself, because it means I’m in the way.
40:10 Are you supposed to be at kind of like a 90° angle to where they’re facing? I need to be in my, in, in my. I need to be in the most advantageous line of sight, but also taken into account that I don’t want to be in the camera. Right? People want to see the fighters.
40:27 I don’t want to be too close to them, because I run the risk of being trampled underfoot. Yeah, and these flyweights, they move quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They move. They zip around that cage.
40:36 I mean, I would love to know, you know, like when they, when they put, um, the sensor on, on a footballer and see how far they run. I’d love to know how on a 25-minute fight, just how much ground, just how much ground covered, that, you know, the lightweights do, cuz it’s a lot. It’s just, watching him is just incredible. Like, when the WEC, before it merged with the UFC, I used to watch it, and I’d be like, Jesus, these guys are, like, you know, Energizer Bunny, you take down, they snap back up on their feet and give you a knee in the face on their way up, and it was just, be like, you know, yeah.
41:07 I mean, I think it’s like, you know, when people were skeptical, weren’t they, when the lightweights came in? Everyone wants to, you know, look: the heavyweight champ of the world. It has a ring to it, doesn’t it? Everybody wants to see it, but I think, you know, obviously with the merger of the WEC, um, I mean, these guys it’s, you know, they’re to watch. What’s the best fight stoppage you think you’ve seen, and what’s the worst?
41:30 If you can comment. The best stoppage? Yeah, something where you were like, that was very correct, and I’m glad that happened for me personally. Another ref one that you’ve seen? Oh, God.
41:41 Um, I mean, I’ve, I’ve saw some great stoppages, and, you know, there this famous one, obviously, with Herb and Tim Sylvia, you know, when he snapped his arm, right? Um, etc. For people that don’t know, Tim Sylvia had Frank Mir, Frank Mir had snapped both of his bones, his all and his radius bone in his arm, and he hadn’t tapped, and Herb was just like, look, you’re done, stop the fight, and he wanted to continue. Yeah, and then when you saw the replay, you could see, you know, I mean, I’ve had it before with fighters breaking bones and stuff, and it’s, that’s another question people say, you know, what if he’s in arm but he doesn’t tap?
42:14 Yeah, that’s not, I can’t stop a fight on a what if. So will you stop it if it snaps? Of course. Okay, but I can’t stop it on a what if. Yeah.
42:22 If I’m refereeing two amateurs, I’m going to take the decision out of their hands, they’ve got to go to work, college on Monday, etc. If I’m, if I have two professionals, and it’s their job, they know the consequence, same as if they get caught in a hill Hawk, etc. Those guys know, you know, it’s their job. If they can’t figure out a way out, and they, you know, um, they can’t escape or counter, they know what’s coming next. Those guys can elect to submit and tap out, or, unfortunately, you know, as brave as they are, some times they tell, I mean, look at Nera, yeah, and, you know, shoulder.
42:59 I remember watching it live. I know what’s coming, I know what’s coming, and boom. Yeah, that was hard to watch. So you will ref different if it’s an amateur, professional fight, of course. Okay.
43:08 I have to show, I have to show a degree of, um, you know, common sense. And what about Pete Irving, who was here when we had Gareon, and he said maybe all fighters say this, is that, you know, they would always wish it would go that extra 5 seconds. You know, they would like to know they put the training in, and they would, they, you know, they, they, because, yeah, well, then that’s why I’m asking. Okay, let me tell you something, right, as a referee, simply, you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t.
43:35 I stopped the fight early, I’m the worst. I stopped the fight late, I got him killed, I’m the worst. We have to make a split-second decision on calling a fight, and if I see a fighter go out, I call the fight. If I think he’s not out, but he’s not in a position to defend himself, I have to do my job. One of the things I always say to a fighter, when we go and talk to them with our assignments, is, um, it’s not my parting shot to them.
44:09 I say to the guys, look, um, if you’re in trouble, and I think you’re in trouble, you need to show me you’re still in the fight. You know, if you keep fighting back, keep your eyes on your opponent, keep fighting back as long as it’s safe to do so, I’m going to give you every opportunity to remain in the fight. But there comes a time, sometimes, in fights, where you can see the beginning of the end. Really? Yeah.
44:34 But I have that, you know, I think goes back to being a fighter again. Sometimes I can. It’s like a psychological switch. Sometimes I’ve almost said, like, I can do this, you know, and ref blind. I can smell it.
44:45 You, there’s just something there. It’s, it’s odd, you know. I try and explain it. I’ve, of course, I never would do that. Going to watch him tonight on TV.
44:54 Yeah. Marc, I don’t want to put that theory to the test. I don’t know, but, you know, I’m being, um, I’m trying to you know, um, confirm the adage of what I say. You know, sometimes it’s like, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a psychological trigger sometimes in a fight, and I can see the fights, I can see the whites of the guy’s eyes, and it tells me a lot, and little looks, it’s, it’s, it’s spooky. Sometimes we exchange little looks, and I can see he’s looking at me, is “help me”?
45:23 You know, sometimes it happens. Yeah. Some say that when you see a lot of these rear-naked choke finishes, a lot of times it’s, it’s when the guy is ready for the fight to be over. I’ve seen other fighters say that about other fighters. They’re like, he was, he’s taken too many shots to the head, and that was just his way of being like, I want to get out of here.
45:39 Yeah, some. I mean, I’ve done it before, in the past. I’ve quit in fights. I’ve quit mentally, and put me in a bad spot. I didn’t, you know, I had a big break from the fight, um, from the fight game, because I couldn’t get my mind right, and it’s a horrible place to be.
45:55 Horrible place to be. Well, you don’t want to fight, or when you’re in there, you just, you don’t want to be there? Correct. Okay, and that’s when you have to have a serious word with yourself, right? And that’s your career at that point, and I did, and I came back, and I, I was, I fixed it, you know.
46:10 I was almost too much the other way when I came back, but yeah, sometimes, you know, there’s little triggers, and little things happen in a fight. Um, but as I said, you know, this thing about, people have to understand that. Um, look, it’s like any sport, you know, a referee, you expect a certain level of, look, you, you’re under fire, and, and, and you’re in the spotlight, and in, in mixed martial arts, you’re in the spotlight definitely. Yeah, you do something.
46:39 I mean, like I said, you know, if after a fight people don’t talk s*** about you, it’s a good thing. Yeah, and I’m cool with that, but you get compliments too sometimes. Dana White will compliment people. Yeah, look, here’s another thing about that. I’ll go back to Matt Riddle.
46:55 One of the oddest things is, and people don’t know that, actual fight, when I stopped the fight, the thing, Dana, it’s one of the times Dana came over to me and thank me personally for the, for the performance in that fight, thank me for that stoppage. It was a great stoppage. You know, it’s like, uh, people have this perception on Dana’s relationship with, you know, the officials. You know, I, I see Dana on the show. It’s hello, how are you, and that’s it.
47:23 You know, it’s very, um, uh, professional, and as it should be. You know, we we, you know, they don’t talk to the officials, and this, that. You know, I’ve, I’ve spoken to maybe five or six times in terms of a hello, how are you, thanks for having me, blah, blah, blah, and a couple of times he’s, you know, made comment on a fight, and thank me, and you know, thankfully I haven’t heard anything negative you know, from that side of it. So, you know, we, you know, we’re seeing nowadays, like, a lot of, um, football you know, referee corruption coming out.
47:53 Usually it’s in the lower league, you know, on the continent, and things like that. And I was wondering if you’re restricted, like, is there a certain number, amount of money you can’t receive from, like, a dinner or a coffee? And also, if you think it’s only a matter of time that some type of corruption seeps into the MMA industry, especially in the smaller cards? Yeah, I mean, cuz you have, so you have a lot of power, right, right or wrong? Yeah, okay.
48:18 I can influence, but there’s the thing. It’s odd, it’s odd, because a lot of people ask the question, but in all my time in MMA I’ve never once been inappropriately propositioned. Okay. Ever, ever, okay, and I know that may, I’m not saying that as if it’s like, wow, you know, a lot of surprise, but in the lower leagues, etc., I think it’s like, you know, it’s like going back to when I first started refereeing, which was by accident. That’s how it happened.
48:46 Yeah, I’m curious about that. Yeah, people, what it was, years ago, I was due to fight on a show, and I was injured, um, and the promoter said he got, he got let down. He said, look, would you mind jumping in? And you’re on ref. And I’m like, okay.
48:59 When was this? What year was, blind me, this was 7 years ago, seven or eight years ago. Okay. I was like, okay, no, no problem. And I sort of, my the way I am as a person, and the way, you know, right, my person, but I, I just talk to it and I remember feeling an instant gratification from some of the fighters, because they respected me in terms of, they were so comforted in the fact that, you know, going back to the, they respect the fact that I know what they’re going through.
49:31 And for the first, I remember distinctly, you know, for the first few shows that I was like, oh yeah, I quite like this, you know, um, and it just grew, and it just evolved from there. I remember, you know, used to walk into events and be like, are you refereeing? Oh, thank you. You know, it’s nice. Yeah, you know, it’s a humbling feeling.
49:49 It’s nice, you know, and I think a lot of that came from the fact that, um, certain camps and fighters, you know, they felt safe, and, and respected the fact that, you know, I was, you know, still then competitor. Do you think it’s It’s a martial arts mentality that surrounds MMA more than boxing, that maybe is the reason people haven’t come, come in to try to buy a fight? Or do you think because the stakes aren’t that high? Or do you think it’s just I mean.
50:16 Look, look at the top of the sport. You know, you’re talking millions and millions of the same in any sport yeah, you’re right there. But, like I said, I’ve never been inappropriately remotely propositioned for anything, and, of course, if I was, then it would only go one way. You, there, rules, you have to contact this person, this person. That’s, yeah, I mean.
50:34 No, from a personal point of view, you know, from an integrity point of view, you know, I would, I mean, like I said, it’s not even thinking back. In all the years, there’s never even been an instance where someone’s even, I’ve never even felt I’ve started to go down that angle. And there was a lot of honoring in mixed martial arts, I think, because of the martial arts. You know, with boxing, I’ve been around boxing a long time as well, and, you know, there’s no element of that in boxing.
50:59 Well, like I said, there is some gentleman in boxing, of course there is. Yeah, but but there is a, there is a distinct difference, and I’ve saw some of that creep into mixed martial arts at the lower levels, which kind of saddens me sometimes. But, okay, but the, but the respect element, and the camaraderie, and the stuff in there, that’s what makes it unique. You know, it’s special. What would you do if someone you do if someone approached you, even on this line?
51:27 Like, oh, what if someone ever did that? Would you feel like you would need to shut them down? Would you feel like you would need to report them? I mean, it’s a really fine line. In what way?
51:34 If someone came and tried to buy your influence for a fight, would you feel the need to report them? Would you feel the need to? I mean, it’s a fine line there. Yeah, I mean, report them to who? Depending on where it happened, what it was.
51:47 I think, I mean, like I said, I think they know not to do it. Yeah, but if they did, I would deal with it personally. There, I mean, like I said, you know, for unfortunately, you know, it’s never happened at any level. I mean, like you said, you know, at the low level, what is there at stake? There isn’t anything at stake, apart from pride, and maybe a fighter’s record, right?
52:06 But obviously, when you hear about corruption and other sports, this, that and the other, and I haven’t, even thinking back now, I can’t, I haven’t heard of it in mixed martial arts. I mean, Pride as an organization in the past, okay, that was in Japan. They, there’s been some rumor that there was some worksh type fights, and, you know, there was rumors of works, you know, and this, that and the other, but never in, you know, unified MMA. I’m, I’m just trying to think now.
52:32 I can’t think of any instance of corruption, and I’ve never experienced it, ever. I was going to ask, um, Marc um, but you pretty much answer that question of how you became a referee. Yes, but then, um, I was thinking, is it also kind of a cool way to stay in the industry, by, you know, you’re not going to be a fighter forever, therefore, you know, you move into another phase by being a referee, and you can kind of stay in that industry a lot longer? It just sort of happened for me before it was fashionable, you know, kind of thing.
53:00 And everyone thinks now, look, it’s going back to that thing about, do you need to be a fighter to be a referee? Do you need to be a fighter? Because there’s some fighters out there who you’d never have referee. Look, Mike Tyson, for instance, an absolute icon and legend of the sport, this. There.
53:19 Could you ever see him as a ref? No, you know, get involved. yeah. You just, you could, you know, he wouldn’t want to. Or, no, I’m just saying, you, you couldn’t see him the top, but as ferocious as he was in the ring, this, you, you couldn’t.
53:33 I’m, I’m trying to draw a correlation between you know, saying that referee, it’s not a rite of passage. Not every ex-fighter will make a good referee. You still have to have certain qualities, um, uh, you know, on the referee front before you become one. But now, now it is fashionable, and so you teach courses in how to ref. I know Heran has a school as well.
53:57 I do seminars, in opening up. And it’s, yeah, and what do you tell the kids? I mean, what do you tell someone listening now, that’s, uh, I mean, it is quite a, don’t do it, don’t do it. It’s quite a sexy job. I mean, it, it looks sexy, just like we had Jon Anik on yesterday, and his job looks sexy, but, Jesus, you look behind the scenes, and his job is nothing but sexy.
54:15 It’s a lot of hard work. So what do you say to the kid that wants to be, you know, the next Mark Otter? It’s funny, because I do answer that question specifically on my seminars, um, and I tell them that, the thing, the bugbear for me is when people think that they can go from doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and they think they can walk into the big stages. You can’t, you can’t bypass knowledge and experience, regardless of industry.
54:47 I can’t spend, you know, uh, a weekend or a week with someone, a doctor for instance, and then rock up to a surgery the week later and expect to, you know, it’s that kind of thing. I mean, that’s quite far-reached there, but it does happen. You know, people have done a seminar and stuff, and then they’ll contact the year, and you know, they’ll think that they can, they can walk into it, and I try and explain to them, look, is there a story out there? Somebody went to one of your seminars and then they got hired as a ref?
55:15 How do that? I don’t know. I thought someone said that they went to one of your seminars, and then they, there’s all kinds of stories about people come in my seminars, and they’ll contact the, you know, UFC office in London, like, yeah, I’m, I’m done. Marc’s course. I’m ready to judge, and this, I’m like, no, no, you’re not, you know.
55:31 And I try and explain to them, the seminars to, is, I use it as a tool for, um, ironing out the, you know, the unified rules, and ironing out a lot of discrepancies on judging, the criteria, the 10-point must that you, that they, you be good. If I do one in London next time, I’ll remember and hook you guys up and come along for it. Come along, great. You’ll, you, you’ll pick up a lot. You know, me, they’re full days, and they’re, they’re quite animated.
55:59 Four days, full days, full days, full day. Yeah, okay. It’s the Birmingham action. They’re quite animated. What do you mean?
56:05 I mean, like, obviously, cuz I get, you know, obviously I’m passionate about, you know, this sport, EMB breeding me, and they get, they get hated sometimes, in a nice way, you know, when I’m telling them stories of the past and this, that and the other. It’s, you know, for certain B bouts, I think in the UFC they can uh request referees, right? I know, like, the heavyweight title fights in the past, they’ve requested, you know, Rosenthal or this judge.
56:26 I mean, is that something that still happens? Do you want to get that phone call, or are you not bothered to ref that big fight? I mean, do you get up for that? Yeah, I mean, look, I’ve refereed countless main events, world titles, etc. You know, it’s always an honor, you know, when I do that in the UFC.
56:46 You know, to be, to be recognized, etc. It’s, it’s fantastic. Um, you know, and it shows that somebody’s putting their faith in you, which is very gratifying and humbling as well. But obviously, as I said, you know, the way it works in the US is, the athletic commissions, they will assign the officials, the judges, and the referees, etc. Um, so, you know, when they move to new areas, obviously the UFC can make a recommendation on which referees they’d like to see, because you’ll have a certain pool of local officials.
57:23 They may do the undercard, etc., and then you’ll have, you know, the likes of Herb, or whoever it may be, you know, actually on the main card. But obviously, in the US, those officials, they have to be licensed by the athletic commission and make sure that they’re, uh, you know, fully keyed up to work in that state. So for you, for how long do you think you’ll be refereeing for, and like, how do you stay excited? I mean, how do you think, like, what am I going to do in a year, in five years, are there career goals you have?
57:53 I don’t have to, uh, stay excited, because if you cut me in half, this sport’s in me, you know. As I said, it’s in my heart, so that keeps it pumping. You know, I love this sport dearly. Um, probably to my detriment sometimes as well. Too, personally, my wife would definitely testify to that, because you watch too much, or just to look at it.
58:15 I’m just involved in it. I have been for a long time. It’s a huge part of my life, from, from competing, from training, from coaching, from, you know, the official side, and getting on to Safe MMA. I’m sure we’ll touch on that in a minute, you know, and, and the regulatory. So it’s just, I’m so heavily involved in this business, and the scary thing is it’s not my full-time role.
58:37 No, it’s not. No, you do other things. Yeah. People still think, oh, you’re a referee, you’re refereeing the UFC, and look, you know, fighters and stuff, you know, it’s, it’s not my full-time role. Okay.
58:51 It’s not my, it’s like Premiership football refs. Many of them have, you know, they have a full-time job, and something they do. I, I quite like the separation as well. Will it be my full-time role? If I don’t know, I don’t know what angles may open up.
59:05 How long have I got left as a referee? I think, you know, I’m, I’m no spring chicken, but, yeah, but you, you can ref for 10 more years, or 15 more years, easy. 20, 20, yeah, 10. Come on. So I want to hear about Safe MMA before we have to wrap things up, cuz this is an important thing.
59:23 I don’t know that much about it, but I do know the MMA has been largely unregulated in the UFC? Without it, I mean, in the UK, whether in the, in the states, there have been some, well, not largely, totally, totally. Okay. And in the states, there’s been medical protocols they use for every fighter. Course, could you just tell us about that?
59:40 Yeah. Uh, in aut, this is, this is a big thing, massive. In a nutshell, all MMA in the UK is unlicensed, and we have this wonderful thing in the UK, where you can do what you want when you want, as opposed to the states, where everyone gets sued, correct? Or other countries in Europe, Sweden, for instance, where you can’t just put on your show, call it what you like, rules that you like, match who you like. This, all you know, that’s all been and gone.
1:00:06 It’s still happening a lot, but fundamentally, the Safe MMA initiative was, you know, what it says on the tin: to, to make it safe. You know, a fire a pound for every time someone contacted me and said, Marc, I’m setting up a governing body. I want that, you know. It’s bloody hell, you know, but there’s there’s a lot of things happening on that front as well. You know, as I said, I pressed the point that Safe MMA is not a governing body.
1:00:33 Okay, this is solely to do with the medical arm. So what we have, I, I when we first got together, I said, look, this is only going to work one way. We need the promotions on board to start, so I said, look, I’ll get the three biggest promotions, or, you know, the most established of the argument, you know, obviously, but clearly Cage Warriors, B UC MMA, three big promotions who are on TV, have a lot of social media, a lot of history, and have a lot of influence in the UK.
1:01:04 So the idea was, look, if we can get those guys on board to start with, when we bring this product to the table, we haven’t got to start again and sell it to them. If we get them involved in the run-up to it, it’s going to be so much easier, and that’s what happened. So we got them all together and happened down in Harley Street. A long time, lots of time, of meetings, and, you know, all years, months, yeah, well over a year. Okay, well over a year.
1:01:32 Harley Street, if you’re not from London, is like the, it’s like the center of the medical, like the high-end medical. Yeah, it’s like a world center. It’s, you know, renowned for it. It is to medicine what Oxford Street is to shopping, right? You know, it’s world famous, uh, you know, for many procedures.
1:01:50 Um, so we got together, and we said, look, this is only going to work if the promotions sign up and effectively do, do you know what Safe MMA is and what it covers? Uh, I, no, no, tell me. Okay. So what Safe MMA covers is, as I said on the Tim, what we want at the moment is, you know, fighter will turn up to a show in the UK, or a show, and he will have his medical there and then on the day: blood pressure, physical, you know, nothing too elaborate and glamorous.
1:02:15 What Safe MMA does is it puts a stringent medical procedure in place, uh, a pre-fight medical, a database of that information, blood test, blood screening, which is something that we were devoid of. You know, people would go in week in, week out, I’ve done it for years, we’d bleed all over each other, right? We don’t know anything. You don’t know if you had had HIV or anything, or, like you said, hey, you know. And as a referee, even now, you know, G of I don’t want to get bled on anymore, and if I do get bled on, I want to know that blood’s safe.
1:02:51 I should be afforded the same protection that the fighters, you know, in that sense. So basically, you wear gloves, but you still get blood on you. Oh yeah, I still get splashed, and, you know, you get splashed with blood and your arm and your face, whichever it may be, eyes. Yeah, yeah, eyes. Well, that’s direct contact, right?
1:03:06 Pretty much straight in your blood. If you know, Winkle John, the guy, who that’s what happened, he lost his vision in one because of that. Yeah, that was a blood spot. Um, it was blood, or it was a kick, or it was BL. Yeah.
1:03:17 You know, it was a blood spot. It was an infection from the blood. I mean, I don’t know the full medical sense of it, but I think that’s what you always see, and wearing goggles now. What a horrific story that was. Had a cornia slice from a toenail, but I don’t, I think it was, I’m almost certain it was a bloodborne problem.
1:03:31 Okay, that, that he, that he got, but I may want to check my facts on that. But, so, Safe MMA does the blood test, does the blood test, keeps the central database. So that basically what we’re doing now is that when a fighter turns up, you know, and like I said, going back to that eventuality of one day, I hope it never happens, but statistically, it’s cuz the sport’s getting bigger and more and more shows, someone’s going to go down, and they’re not going to get back up.
1:04:01 I think, you know, statistically, it will happen one day, heaven forbid, but is this a death in the, in a death in MMA, not just UFC, a death in MMA? What I want to do is, or what I try and impress on the promoter, look, do you want that to be on your show? No, you don’t, but if it does, when the, when the curtains come down, and the investigation begins, you want to be able to sit there and say, I’ve done everything I could possibly, you know, within the realms of, you know, realism, to try and ensure the safety of those fighters.
1:04:36 Yes, there were pre-fight medicals. Yes, there was BL, and there’s a big argument about MRIs, MRI scans, but whether they’re effective or not, or correct, what the cost? Well, effective, they are, but what, what you have is, it’s kind of a double-edged sword, because when we first brought Safe MMA to the four, um, you know, we had a different price band, and people were throwing us under the bus, a, you, you know, you’re doing this and we can’t afford it.
1:05:00 I said look, guys, you know, it’s like an educational thing, and, um, you haven’t even got, Mr, and, the, come on, you’re throwing us under a bus for the blood test, and the database, and the other thing that’s very important: this is the medical suspension fact of it, as well, which I’ll come back to. Um, but the cost of trying to and, obviously, one of the representatives on the, on the board, the medical advisory board of Safe MMA, is Dr. Mike Loore now. Mike is the British Olympic boxing team doctor.
1:05:32 He’s an advisor to their Commonwealth Games, so not only is he a doctor, you know, medical professional, but he’s also extensively combat sports related, you know, so he knows his subject matter very well, and he said, you know, with the MRIs, he said, Mr MRIs are fine, and of course, you know, it could show up some form of a regularity. Um, and I think we will get round to it eventually, but at the moment, in terms of, um, getting it out broad brush, it was purely a cost thing. Okay, so right now it’s blood, and they do some other pre-fight blood physicals, etc., and they’ll do cognitive tests.
1:06:12 Okay, for the, for the memory thing. I mean, I was educ, cuz I was saying, come on, we’ve got to have MRIs, and he said, well, the problem with an MRI is that it may show up an abnormality, and that abnormality may not be something threatening, but it will deprive that fighter of fighting. And there, there was that side of it as well, you know, and I mean, like I said, I’m, look, in, in, in, um, professional boxing, obviously, in the UFC, I mean, the medical proceeding in UFC is the most stringent I’ve ever saw.
1:06:42 Do the UFC, Amurai, they’re all fighters on a regular, good God, yes. Was it Thiago Silva, who’s the guy, they, ales, they found a blood clot in his brain? The medical procedure, of, of the medical procedures and whatnot that the fighters go under for the UFC is the most stringent of you would ever encounter. Okay, it, they don’t leave any stone unturned, and their aftercare of fighters is exceptional as well. Okay.
1:07:07 You know, fighters are knocked out, sent straight away from, um, you know, a heavy TKO, etc. You know, their aftercare, for the, they, pretty much just protecting themselves a bit more, you know. They’re protect, was Safe MMA. You want to get that standard here in the UK, some standard. Eventually, it will happen, and, like I said, a big thing is medical suspensions.
1:07:26 Yeah, because we’ve had an agreement with, you know, with these founding shows, and obviously we’ll move on to it with other shows, get them involved. Um, so in the states, if, if you get, say, a KO, you can’t fight for like 60 days, and all the athletic commissions honor that. But in the UK, they could fight the next week, right? The next day, the next day, yeah, cuz there’s no, the next day, the next day, okay, the next, on the same night, if you wanted to.
1:07:50 So if they sign, if, if they sign up with Safe MMA, or if they adopt these policies, then there’ll be that, one post-fight medicals. Okay, that’s another important thing, so you know, that’s something that was vastly overlooked in the UK. A fighter will just walk out, people think they’re happy. Sometimes the winning fighter can sustain 10 times more damage than the, you know, than the loser. We’ve seen it in boxing.
1:08:12 24 hours later, yeah, having the guys checked medically afterwards, so that’s another procedure that comes in, and again, it’s collation of all that data. The data was priceless, you know, when you get to insurers, etc. I want to insure a fighter. Show me some form of, that’s the first thing they would ask for, statistics and data. Okay, if you don’t record them, you don’t have them.
1:08:31 So how far along are you? Have you had organizations sign up? Have you had fighters do this testing, or where, yeah? The first Safe MMA show happened, um, a couple of weeks back. Okay, uh, first up on the list was, um, d o Donnell and UC MMA.
1:08:46 Okay, and he had the first all Safe MMA registered fighter fight card. That’s, that’s momentous. That’s excellent. Congratulations. The next one is, um, in March, 9th, you’ll have BAMMA and Cage Warriors have a, a show on the same night.
1:09:01 Okay, BAMMA has a show in Newcastle, Cage Warriors have a show in London, and they’ll be the same thing again. That’s Safe MMA. All the fighters will be, um, Safe MMA registered, so they’ll have their bloodborne, um, viruses checked, their pre-fight medicals, they’ll start on the database, and we, can, promotions can only match fighters from that database. So they will submit a card, and we can see, we want to get away from, you know, Johnny independent.
1:09:28 That’s cool. And what’s the cost, roughly, per fighter to maintain that? Well, we had, I, if you go to 76 Harley Street, cuz what happened before, as I said, going back to, um, you know, when we first launched the initiative, it was R about the 260, 280 mark and Fs. We can’t, can’t afford it, so pounds, yes? Okay.
1:09:48 So we halved it. Well, in fact, it’s less than half. We’re allowing fighters Define up for 6 months now. We’re allowing them to submit their own blood tests, providing they fall within, I mean, the medical side will say they’ll fall within a certain criteria. Have to be, you know, and they can’t just go, I’ve took my own blood, and here’s your test, but Harley Street deal with all that.
1:10:09 Okay. So that, I mean, I think the, the bottom line starting cost now was around about the £1,120 mark for a fight, or for six months, or for a fight for six months. Okay, that’s quite affordable. Yeah. And the UFC doesn’t do that because they have their own, no, yeah, I mean, the UFC procedures is, you know, high level, you know, aine, you know, they have to have op op, um, special optical, I think it’s ophthalmologist.
1:10:32 I’m not sure. My, obviously, MRI, MRA. I mean, it’s wow. As I said, the level of medical protection and assurance in the UFC is something to behold. So this is a great start.
1:10:43 Well, I mean, congratulations for that. I mean, that’s, that’s a pretty big thing to get organized. I think it’s momentous, because, look, we can all sit down and talk about it, and if you talk about it, then you talk about it some more, but the line’s been drawn in the sand, and it hasn’t been for the want of trying. The regulatory side of things, you’ve heard of the IMMAF, International Mixed Martial Arts Federation? I’ve heard it, yeah.
1:11:06 The UK MMA Federation, I’m involved in that as well, and that’s, you know, um, along with some colleagues, that’s moving along as well. That’s gaining momentum. So, and here’s the thing. I’ve said to people, you know, people lose sight of the fact of just how young the sport of MMA is. We’re not an old sport.
1:11:24 We’ve been around a very short amount of time. What, 20 years, less than that? Yeah, less than that, less, yeah. So, you know, yes, we’ve had bad practice here, there and everywhere, but we’re doing our utmost to, to, to put it right. Now, don’t lose sight of the fact that, you know, things are happening a lot quicker than what you actually think when you look at the, you know, the grander timescale of, yeah, no, that’s true.
1:11:51 Marc, how do people get a hold of you? Um, to, you know, to possibly book one of your seminars? And, you know, they, they can follow me on Facebook, or they can follow me on Twitter. Twitter, you’re at markor Godard ukk? Marc Goddard, MC Goddard UK.
1:12:08 Okay, so the real Marc Goddard out there, he’s got my Twitter. Is he like an actor in the US or something? I don’t know. Not just a regular guy. I think from the UK, I’m sure he’s picked up one or two followers.
1:12:21 Give him back. Are you, are you active on Twitter, or are you, you, yeah, I try to be, but, but, come, when it comes near the fight, you probably go, go very quiet. Yeah, I’ll just, you know, tweet general things, but, obviously, you know, I’m not, you know, it’s amazing some of the things that people ask me, and some of the, I’ve always said, look, I’m going to write a book one day, you know, not about me. No one’s interested in me, but, you know, with a book of memoirs, cuz I got some.
1:12:44 I bet you do. Do you caffeinate for the fights? Do I, do you caffeinate, like, do you have coffee before, after? I’m a massive coffee. I can’t, it’s my drug of choice.
1:12:54 But, like, if you have a long night with a bunch of different fights, do you try to have, like, one before each fight, or no? I’ll try, and take, when we take some drinks with us, and stuff, you know. We get drinks there, and just, just keep hydrated. Same thing, because, again, it’s like, yeah, you know, we’re nowhere near the physical output of the fighters, but it gets tough in there, you know, the the psychological tax is high. When you’ve got a fight, we could do four or five fights in one night, if they all run the distance, you know?
1:13:23 You’re, you’re, you are exhausted sometimes. Yeah. That’s over an hour of heavy concentration, right? And, um, last question. What do you do after the fights?
1:13:33 Do you celebrate? Yeah, have one or two beers and unwind. I think some of my American colleagues are, um, I don’t think I’m starting to get a reputation, you know, that Brits love beers and this, that and the other, but yeah, I’d just like to come back to the hotel. You know, we don’t go to after parties and things like that. People hear, they think, you know, life of glamour, again, assuming that role.
1:13:55 And, for instance, you, you’ll generally find us, and most of the fighters do as well. Yeah, they all congregating the hotel bar. By the time we come out, we’re normally ravenous, so would you hang out with the fighters who just refereed? Sorry, would you just hang out with the fighters? Well, I mean, I can be in the same place of them, and we may share one or two words, but we’re not out, you know, partying hard and this, that and the other, but generally, you know, sometimes we, we’ll discuss, you know, they may discuss the fight with us or this, that and the other.
1:14:25 But you know, it’s just, and like I said, you know, by and large, the fight is the same way. I’m thoughtful and respectful of what I’m doing. The fighters are exactly the same. There’s some wonderful people in this sport, yeah, all the way to the top, you know, the biggest stars as well. What would an average fan um, be surprised to see behind the scenes?
1:14:43 The things that you see. I mean, what would surprise them the most? Do you think? I mean, is the fact that it’s a lot of, it’s unglamorous, or, well, yeah, I mean, look, they say look, look, said every time I step in that, that it’s, you know, it’s taking me years. I’ve been in this sport for years, a long time, thousands of miles.
1:15:01 Just this sport will forever owe me. Put it that way. It’s not going to make you rich quick, but, you know, people see that, and, this, look, yeah, there is, you know, like I said, I consider myself, I don’t consider myself lucky. I think it’s the wrong term because it’s, it’s hard-earned, and it wasn’t given to me. I had to work at it, but I’m very thoughtful, and I’m very thankful for, for what I get to do.
1:15:27 You know, I love what I do, and that, that’s the difference. If you love what you do, it doesn’t really, nothing else really matters, I don’t think. You know, it’s a theme we get a lot here at London Real, a lot of people sitting where you’re sitting. Yeah, they, they’re, yeah, they’re good at what they do, because they love what they do, you know. It’s the old adage in it, find a job you love, and you never work a day in your life.
1:15:47 Exactly. And when it comes to the Mixed Martial Arts side of it, that’s exactly how I feel. I have my regular thing, my outside life, my wife, my children, this, that and the other. You know, my children come first, you know, before everything, but, um, they know it’s tough, because I’m on the road a lot as well, and traveling, but you know, my wife, she understands I’m not, I’m providing, you know, I’m not on, if I was on stag dos every weekend, well, I wouldn’t be on them anymore, but, you know, it’s, this is my job.
1:16:17 It’s what I do. Well, I mean, I appreciate what it is you do, like you said. These fighters, they have to really appreciate you being in the cage with them, because they’ve trained so much, and to have it all come down to the line. I mean, your job is so important, because you can make or break careers on your decisions and your knowledge. So, uh, I, you know, I think it’s a real asset to the sport.
1:16:37 And thanks for coming on, on fight day. I mean, I’ve really enjoyed the discussion. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. I definitely did. It was good.
1:16:44 It was good to have you here, and I appreciate you taking the time, and it’s kind of fun having you here on fight day, you know, because we can ask you all the questions that you know people are going to see you tonight. Yeah, it’s crazy, because this, um, you know, as you said, I done, what time are we on now? Uh, just, like, yeah, 20 after 11, so we, uh, I never 20 after 11. My friends are going to kill me for saying that. It’s 20 past 11.
1:17:09 It’s Britain. Yeah, it’s in Britain. Um, um, yeah, you know, like I said, I’m off now, back to the hotel. I’m going to do this commission meeting, and then, you know, I, I always go off on my own. We have our own room, of course, but there’s like a little ritual I have.
1:17:24 You know, I try and build myself into it, kind of like a meditation. Yeah, just psychologically, you know, trying to start assuming the role, and, um, just try and take it easy a bit more, and the mental preparation and all the all the things that come with it. So, awesome, you know, that’s going to work. Excellent. Well, good luck tonight.
1:17:44 Um, we, I’ll be watching you, and, uh, we wish you all the best. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, um, and you want to see, uh, Marc’s extremely good-looking face, you can come watch us on, or Matt suix. We’re on YouTube at, uh, Channel London Real TV. Uh, we’re on Twitter as, as is Marc. Um, come and join us, and, uh, we’re on Facebook.
1:18:03 We’ve got a group, uh, called London reers on Facebook, and guys post, uh, you know, UFC stuff and iasa stuff and all that good stuff. So come check us out. And, uh, it was a real pleasure having you on. Um, best of luck, Marc. And, uh, until then, it’s about the journey.
1:18:18 Thanks, Jin, than peace, guys. As Junior dos Santos, you know, sometimes I have to remind myself, like, bro, you’re, you’re calling the fight, so you can’t stop talking here. You got you know, stop watching the fight and actually call the action. What’s going on? So, uh, it’s an exciting time, fight week, you know, it, it never gets old.
1:18:37 We’re doing so many of these, but, you know, I get excited for the first Facebook preum too. I mean, that’s the thing, because
