Jake Wood - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder PTSD

Full transcript: Jake Wood on London Real

3:32 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. With me today is Mr Matthew Suik, and our guest is Mr Jake Wood, who was a British Territorial Army reserve soldier who has served in two tours in Iraq, at one, and Afghanistan, and was later diagnosed with PTSD, which is a post-traumatic stress disorder. He’s written a book called Among You, which is the extraordinary true story of a soldier broken by war. It was published last month, I think, and it’s available on Amazon.

4:02 It’s quite a read, and we’re going to talk all about it today. Jake, welcome. Thanks very much. Welcome, Jake. Thanks for coming on.

4:08 I appreciate it. You know, I’ve had a lot of guests in here, and to be honest, everyone and their mother has a book, and a lot of them are just kind of a crappy self-published book. But when you sent me a copy of this, I was like, okay, wait a second, this is a real book, you know, by a real publisher. You spent a lot of time writing this. It’s really personal.

4:26 I didn’t have a chance to read every page, but I got through a lot of it, and getting into my head, it’s actually really descriptive, the way it’s written, and it seems like you put a lot of time into this. I was, before we get to the book, I was wondering if you could give the people that don’t know just a rough background as far as how you first got into the military, what it was like being a reservist in some of your tours, just so we can know a bit more about you. Okay.

4:52 I think it was almost pre-ordained that I would join the forces in one form or another. I was raised in a military family. My dad was an RAF pilot, my mom was in the Army, my uncle was in the Army, my aunt was in the Army, my cousin was in the Army, and like towering above all of them was my grandfather, who fought in both world wars. I lied about his age, you know, to fight in the First World War, and he was multi-decorated, a Military Cross, etc. And I was brought up in this family environment, which revered achievement in the military world.

5:36 So, yeah, with how I was nurtured, I think it was pretty much pre-ordained that I would do something with the military. But then, you know, I went to school. I was in the cadets and that kind of thing, and then I went to university, and while I was at university I heard about this thing called the TA, which is the Territorial Army, the Army Reserves. And I kind of heard about them, you know, before, but I saw that you could join the TA and do all the good bits of the Army, all the exciting bits, you know, without having to do all the kind of hum-drum, boring bits in between that barracks life for a regular soldier often involves.

6:24 So I joined the TA. I was at university. It was what the Army calls an airborne unit, so it was paratrooping, and you know, all good stuff like that. And then I kind of enjoyed it. I was in a good unit, and I didn’t really want to give that up, and I saw that I could stay in a civilian job on a civilian wage, which is sometimes higher than in the military, and I could do all the good bits of the Army that I wanted to at weekends, so I could have a sort of a military yang to my office-bound yin.

7:08 And everything was in kind of harmony, really. I could blow off steam at the weekend, shoot guns and get rained on, and all excited stuff like that. That’s pretty good to me, and then, you know, during the Monday to Friday, it’s a routine. I could earn a semi-decent wage, and so everything was pretty cool, really. Everything was, I felt happy with that existence.

7:34 But that all changed in, like, 2003, with the invasion of Iraq. Okay, which is where the book picks up. And what year had you started with the reserves? I first joined them in 1994, kind of after college or after university. Yeah, that’s right.

7:51 Okay, so you’ve been there for ten years? Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, and it was cool. Um, yeah, and then, you know, I transferred to a different unit. I wanted to move to London, and, um, and it was from that unit that I was mobilized for the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

8:11 Yeah, so that kind of, the Americans and George Bush kind of really changed everything up for you, because if that hadn’t happened, you might have continued with this kind of weekend-warrior type of… yeah, you know, banking in by day and reservist by weekend, kind of thing. A lot of, I say George Bush has got a lot to answer for. I think I’m, as far as I’m concerned, he’s got a lot to answer for, but also, in a bizarre way, I’ve got a lot to thank him for as well, and that sounds, um, contradictory.

8:44 But, um, there you go. What do you have to thank him for? No, it’s, it’s going to be controversial, but um, most soldiers want to go to war, and this may sound unpalatable, but unfortunately it’s the truth. Um, most soldiers, when they join up, they want to do this thing called living the dream, in Army terminology, which is essentially doing soldiering for real. Um, and most soldiers who join, what they call teeth arms, the combat roles, they want to experience combat for real.

9:28 You know, they want someone to shoot at them, and they want to shoot back at them, because that’s a soldier’s raison d’être, that’s his whole reason for, you know, being a soldier. And, um, I can understand this. You know, this might sound unpalatable for some of the public, but I’m afraid it’s true. It makes total sense to me. Did, was that you, for 8, 9 years?

9:52 When were you always kind of like, I would want to try this stuff out? Yeah. Okay, so when you got the news that the Yanks were going in, you were like, yeah, let’s go, kind of thing? Yeah, um, yes. I mean, my views have, like, changed now.

10:07 Um, with retrospect, I can look back to the way I try to, like, justify why I was there. I look back on those reasons as naive, um, but, um, at that time I was desperate to go, um, as an awful lot of soldiers were. And, um, when I got the call-up, I was, um, again, it sounds unpalatable, but I’m afraid it’s the truth. I was literally almost, you know, punching the air. So, um, I can look back on that now, and think about it a little differently, though, with the retrospect I’ve been afforded now.

10:49 You know, all things being the same, would you change that, what happened in ’03? I can’t, I can’t… I think, I think that’s mad, even more madness lies by contemplating that. Yeah, it’s sometimes that’s a question I ask at the end. Okay, it’s a completely valid question, Brian, but what is done is done, and you know, no matter what we’ve done in our lives, we have to be able to accept it, and, uh, learn from it.

11:20 And then, you know, one of the reasons I wrote the book was because I wanted to try and use the… I wanted to try and channel the destruction of my past into something constructive for my present and thereby hopefully enable a different future for myself. And so the book was kind of, you know, cathartic, but also, in talking about the PTSD, I wanted to try and raise awareness in the public about exactly what PTSD is, and how it’s affecting an increasing number of soldiers now, because a lot of them are leaving the forces now, and we live among you now.

12:10 Yeah, I want to talk more about it, because it’s an acronym people throw around a lot, and I feel like people throw it around a lot without really understanding it, and I want to get into more detail about that later, but I just wanted to find a bit of a timeline so people can kind of get their head around where you were and when, um, over from ’03 up until I think it was ’07 or ’08. You know, the thing that struck me about this book is that I worked in banking for like 10 years. I’ve hung out in the same bars that Jake used to hang out in here, in Shoreditch.

12:39 I mean, that’s where he used to hang, right around here, and I must have walked by the HAC, which is the Honourable Artillery Company, right here on City Road. It’s right next to the Virgin gym. I must have walked by that a thousand times, and I see the guys down there drilling, and I just, I don’t know, I never think much about it. I walk right by them, you know, but that’s pretty much where our similarities seem to change, you know. And I saw some of your helmet cam footage you had on Facebook, and it was, it was very serious stuff.

13:06 You know, I found even some of the footage of the young children over there, and stuff, almost more riveting than some of the other stuff, because I hadn’t seen that kind of close contact. But back to my question, can you just walk us through a timeline? So, like, ’03, how long were you there for? When did you come back? Okay.

13:23 Um, yeah, I was mobilized for invasion, um, in, um, February ’03, and then, um, we invaded a few weeks later, and I was in Iraq for about, like, three or four months, and then I came back to the bank I was working for at that time, in Canary Wharf. I worked there for about another six months as a systems analyst, and then I was called up again, you know, to go back to Iraq in very early 2004, and I was away from the, you know, from the office then for just over a year. It’s actually about 14 months, and, um, about six months of that was spent in Iraq doing, um, uh, surveillance on Iraqi insurgents, and I came back home again, and I was back home for another two years, and then I was called up again for Afghanistan in 2007.

14:24 Spent another year away from the office then. That six months of which was, uh, that summer of, like, ’07 in Afghanistan, Helmand, um, fighting season in Afghanistan, and, uh, and then I came back, and, um, I went back to the office, and that’s when I realized that things, you know, weren’t right upstairs, with, you know, that’s when I, I was, I started having symptoms that I would be later educated in, were the symptoms of PTSD. You know, would you say that every time you got called up, was your mind already changing as you were getting called up?

15:05 Every tour, would you say that you’re already seeing the, you know, the effects of war on your mind? Um, I think, um, with the tours, they, they kind of increased in intensity with each one. So, um, my most sort of, um, active tour, militarily, was, like, definitely Afghanistan, um, but I think even when I came back from my first tour, um, I knew that. It was almost like, I realized, everything, the only thing that had changed was me. So I came back from that tour, and all of a sudden I’d have this taste of another, this other-worldly existence, where it’s, um, there, much sound strange to some, you know, civilian viewers and listeners, but it was, like, for me, a very moral existence.

16:05 If you take away the reasons, you know, why the soldiers are there, um, you know, soldiers don’t, they’ll justify to themselves, you know, before they go, why they’re going there, as in why they might soon die. But once they’re actually on the ground, they’re not thinking about politics, or, or, or what David Cameron or George Bush or, or Barack Obama think about X, Y and Z. It’s completely irrelevant at that point. They’re just concentrating on the job they’re doing on the ground, and looking after the man next to them, and that man next to them looks after them, and it’s very, you have to be very, very unselfish as a soldier.

16:48 You need to, there’s called the buddy-buddy system, and I’ll just explain it. You look after the man next to you, and he looks after you, and if you don’t do that, the whole system falls down. Um, and I did not see that in banking when I came back. Maybe you didn’t look hard enough. Um, and that made coming home each time harder and harder, because I was trying to readjust to this environment, which was so alien to the normality that I left behind in Iraq or Afghanistan, and each time I came back it was harder and harder, you know, to readjust to this, this sky-scraped environment, where, from my perspective at least, there seemed to be too many people just looking after themselves, and that was it.

17:41 And so each and every time I was called up, I was like, yeah, I’m going, because it was like returning, it was almost like returning home. It took me into this kind of brotherhood, and this, like, absolutely and it’s a place where you didn’t have, I guess, a lot of your questions are answered, because you always know that guy will have your back. You know, your job is to have his back. So is that what you mean when you say it’s morally clear? Because you… yeah, it’s like, um, yes, it’s, it’s a very, it could be viewed as very simple black and white existence.

18:15 I mean, like, brutally simple, literally, where, um, all of a sudden, your existence is like paired down to this, this sort of, um, what it can be like, a life and death, like struggle, and it’s um, you know, you know, during one day you can be fighting for your life and the lives of those, you know, beside you, and, um, it’s just you look after each other, and, um, when you come back to banking, you know, no one’s going to die. You might have your project manager, like, breathing down your neck, like screaming for this report, whatever, but you know that no one’s going to die if it’s, if it’s a few hours late, or something, and it’s, I just found it a very, very hard to come back to. Is it hard to take seriously when you come back?

19:09 Yeah. But which one of those states of being is natural? Because you could argue that neither one is, because you can’t live 24/7 your whole life in a situation of like life and death, or even for a short amount of time, as you probably experienced. Even though there must be some great comfort in that. It’s just knowing that your job is to protect your fellow tribe, and they’re protecting you, and when you come back to the real world, especially an urban environment like London, where nobody gives a s***, and it’s just, you know, everyone out for themselves, especially in banking.

19:39 Yeah, um, is one more natural than the other, or do you think that they’re just two extremes of life? Probably two extremes. There’s got to be two extremes, because I mean, I mean, most people don’t work in banking, and most people aren’t in the Army, and, um, and that’s why they might find this interesting, because it’s, I, I kind of live this, like, duality, um, which were, they were just like polar opposites of each other, you know, from my point of view.

20:07 Um, and I would say that, uh, with each tour I did, that life, you know, that life on tour became more and more normal for me, which is why it was harder and harder to readjust, like, coming back home each time, which is why also I just wanted, like, to go back on tour each time, uh, because it was returning to a life that made more sense. Could you have opted out on any of those tours, like the second and third one? Yeah, um, yeah, I could have. Um, thing about the TA is, until you’re mobilized, um, like, to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, uh, you’re a volunteer, so you can leave the TA at any time you like.

20:47 Um, yeah, and you didn’t have to. You know, I think you might have to write a letter of resignation or something, but, but I mean, that’s it. We just, like, find out, say, I’m leaving now, and, and the high was the same that you went the first time, or the last time? You know, the high of it when you were going to war, you know, when you were super excited the first time we went. Would you say you had the same high, or did it calm down a bit after realizing everything?

21:12 Yeah, I think, um, I think the first time I was just, I didn’t know what to expect, you know, because I’d never been on tour before, and, um, I literally did not, I did not know what to expect, and it was this almost, it was a bizarre experience. You know, I found myself walking through what was fated to be the Garden of Eden, you know, the birthplace of civilization, and, and you walk, you know, it’s just crazy, crazy experience. Um, but then, sorry, can I just, I got actually go back to your question?

21:46 Yeah, just in terms of, you know, how you got super excited about going on the tour the first time, when you compared to the last time you were called to go, did you still get the same high, or was it a bit more calmed? Um, I think I think I just think I was desperate. I was desperate to go away each time, and then, um, when I, um, I think after Afghanistan I got PTSD, and it was at that point that I never, ever wanted, like, to go away away on tour again, because I’d, I’d seen enough, and, and it’s, I’m not asking for sympathy at all.

22:32 I’m, I’m not owed any any sympathy, because I, I made my own decisions, and I have to live by them. Um, so, um, so, you know, people can, like, you know, condemn me as much as I can. I condemn myself with the PTSD, um, but, uh, I essentially volunteered for those tours. So, I, and did you realize while you were in Afghanistan that you didn’t want to do this again, or was it when you got back, where you’re like, I’m done, done with, I’m done with this? I kind of knew that in Afghanistan, that the third tour would be my last tour.

23:03 I kind of knew that, uh, but then, when the PTSD hit, um, it, you know, it was going to be my last T [expletive] burst. I mean, I mean, there was no debating it. It was, it was like, okay, you know, this is the end. Okay, and those symptoms hit when you got back. Yeah, okay.

23:19 You know, we solicited questions on Facebook, and we got a ton of them from you, and for you, for this interview, and you mentioned it was morally clear, like going into Helmand like that third time, but you know, so many people ask questions about the politics. I mean, there were questions of, uh, how do you feel getting paid to kill people, that kind of thing? Was there were there moral issues when you were on the ground in Afghanistan, or were there just not?

23:44 When you’re a soldier, they’re always there. I mean, um, I can, I’ll talk about Afghanistan, but also I mean I can remember with the invasion of Iraq, um, there was this real, real effort, you know, by the Coalition forces, you know, to avoid casualties on every side, you know, not just on our own side and not just Iraqi, you know, civilians, but also, um, guys in the Iraqi Army. I remember listening on the radio, and, um, there was a guy in an OP team, a observation post team, and he could see this, this Iraqi convoy, um, of, like, trucks, like, you know, moving, and he was asking you, you to bring down a fire mission on it, and, um, and basically he came down to him, asked him if the convoy was a threat.

24:38 He said no, and they said no, okay, don’t hit it, because that would be needless killing. Um, and, uh, at that stage, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the Iraqi Army Iraqi Army was running away. So, um, I’ve never seen any atrocities myself. It’s not to say that they, you know, they might have happened, but, um, all the guys I serve with there, no one wanted to. Now, there’s no sort of like blood lust there.

25:09 You know, it was, um, you know, he just wanted, like, to do the job for real, and, and, um, with all its myriad of pitfalls, and, you know, moral ambiguities as to why we’re there, but, but when we’re talking about the existence on the ground being very, you know, moral existence, that’s that’s just how, for me anyway, how the soldier operates on a day-to-day, you know, case with his mates. You know, you look after each other. It’s very unselfish, and, and, um, yeah.

25:49 Uh, when I was in Afghanistan, um, exactly the same thing. There was, um, a real, real effort, like, to try and avoid, you know, civilian casualties as much as possible, as much as we could, and we never knowingly target, you know, civilians, obviously, but, but unfortunately, um, you know, we get tarred with the same brushes as a Taliban, and the Taliban actually actively target, you know, civilians, um, but, um, everyone seems more interested in, uh, toeing us, for some reason, um, and, um, so we would never target any areas even though there might be Taliban in there, where, you know, there were civilians. Okay, because, um, you’re not going to win any hearts and minds that way, and, and, and, and who wants to kill, you know, women and kids?

26:43 Now, what’s the difference on the ground, like, for, like, Afghanistan compared to your second tour in Iraq? I mean, just from, like, it’s so hard for me to get my head around what it looks like. Was it, uh, more of an urban environment in Iraq, was it, and was there a different feeling in Iraq as opposed to Afghanistan? I think, um, yeah, I mean, certainly I could almost, I mean, not contrast my second tour with my Afghan tour, but, um, you know, comparing the two, my second tour was just after the invasion.

27:12 I finished, and that was when we were in this peacekeeping phase, kind of thing, we were doing surveillance on the insurgents. That was, um, we were operating in urban environments a lot, and, um, it’s like scooting around the streets in a lot of vehicles, and, uh, superficially it would seem quite peaceful, but in Iraq, um, you were basically like driving around waiting to get blown up by an IED. So, you know, for your whole patrol out in a vehicle, you know, not a single thing would happen.

27:53 It would be, quiet as a mouse, but you constantly, yeah, constantly watching out for heaps of rubbish, which could, like, contain an IED, um, like dog carcasses, which could, like, contain an IED, um, like different-colour patches on the road, which, like, uh, contain an IED, and he’s looking for all these hiding places for improvised explosive devices, and that’s pretty stressful, because it’s, it’s, um, if you you can almost, almost contrast that with Afghanistan when I was there, anyway, in the early days, before, you know, the IED threat was much higher. In Afghanistan, when I was there, it was more of a shooting match. It was this living the dream as far as a soldier’s, you know, concern, where, like, someone shoots at you and you have control over your own destiny.

28:40 You can, like, shoot back at them, so it’s almost a level, you know, level playing field. Um, you know, driving around in Iraq, when, to get blown up, blood, bio, you know, by IEDs, it’s, um, you’ve got very little control over your own destiny there, and that’s a very different kind of, like, stress. Um, and again, in Iraq, we’d go back to our patrol bases, big, like, fortified things, but then, you know, the insurgents rain down fire on them at night be it, like, with mortars or, like, rockets, and again that’s quite stressful, because, um, you know, no matter how good a soldier you think you may be, you have absolutely no control over where the next mortar will land.

29:26 You know, it might land over there, or it might land on you, and, and you just have a, you know, split second of light, and then you’re being burst apart. You describe, like, being rained down on by mortars, where you just got nowhere to hide and you’re just like curled up, trying to get almost inside yourself, and there’s just, yeah, you go, uh, you find your best bit of, like, cover, um, and, and, he, if, if, uh, that, as you hear it whistle above you, you just curl into a ball, and you just got to hope it doesn’t land on you. Mascot.

29:56 Stressful. You had this this quote in your book, and I think it was from, like, the Roman times, like, thousands of years ago, where it really struck me, and it was, I think, some Roman soldier was saying something like, uh, even in peacetime, I am always ready for the next threat. And, uh, you said something, and this sounds like IED hunting, and you said that’s a bit of what PTSD, absolutely, is like. And can you just explain what that is? Um, one of the symptoms of PTSD is this thing called hypervigilance.

30:25 It’s just one of a long list of symptoms. Um, and hypervigilance basically is, um, being constantly on alert for, like, dangers around you. So, um, and this is, like, a psychological hangup or a leftover from being in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, where over there, your life, your very life, would literally depend on constantly being alert, your head on a swivel, looking around you, like, 360 every second. Right? You can’t relax, because you know, with, S’s law, that it’s that second that you relax, where you miss something, and, and I could kill you.

31:07 So, um, you’re, you’re constantly primed out there when you’re on patrol for all the dangers around you. Um, and um, with PTSD, that state of mind is, like, seared into your brain, and you find that it comes with you and so, um, even now, I, I find it difficult to walk along the street and have someone walking behind me. I, I can’t do it. I have to, like, stop, let them go past me, or walk across the street. Um, or even being on the Underground, you know, like, guys with backpacks, I have to stand as close as I can to them, and I watch their hands, and, um, because I’m, I’m thinking about suicide bombers, to see if they’re going to let fire something off, or reach inside.

32:02 Or, again, it’s, yes, exactly, and it’s something about the soldiers’ mentality, I think, where, you know, you don’t want to get away from the threat. It’s almost like you want to do something about it, so I’ll try and stand as close as I can, like, to these people, and I’m watching their hands and, and, and, um, if I make a sudden move for it, then I’d make a sudden move for them. Have you had confrontations on the back of this hypervigilance? Um, if you had people like, what are you looking at?

32:28 No, I’ll try and do it surreptitiously, because otherwise you’re just going to, like, you know, create trouble. And, um, but, uh, um, no, I have not, trouble yet. Okay, yeah. I just want, I just wonder how it might manifest itself, you know, all those, not overtly. No, no, I’m not, like, standing in their face or anything like that.

32:49 I mean, I mean, that’d just be like crazy. You know, I’m not that crazy, I don’t think. And what is, I mean, you know, I, I know, uh, from the book, you know, you’ve, you’ve been in treatment for the PTSD. I mean, what do they advise on a daily basis for you to do to try to work, work yourself out of these things? Do they promote meditation, or does any of that stuff really work in your opinion?

33:10 There, all there’s all kinds of lines of treatment. Um, and, uh, I could reel off a lot of acronyms now, but, um, there’s, um, there’s cognitive behavior blood therapy, which is basically like talking about it. It’s essentially, it’s like, uh, exposure therapy, so, um, uh, the theory is that, um, you know, the more you talk about something, um, in, like, forensic detail, you describe exactly what you were doing, like, during this, like, traumatic experience, um, what you can see, what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste, and you’re literally forcing your brain to relive that traumatic experience, and the theory is that by forcing the brain to relive it, as masochistic as it sounds, and as counterintuitive as it sounds, um, you’re forcing the brain to process this, this, you know, this memory, because, um, essentially what the flashbacks are, the flashbacks and the nightmares, they, um, like quarantine memories that the brain has locked away in a different part of your brain, like deep down in your subconscious, because at the time of the trauma the brain is basically, like, shot off emotionally, and subconsciously is basically gone.

34:44 Okay, that’s too much. I’m shutting off all emotion, like, connected, like, to that experience. I’m quarantining that yeah, that’s repressed, and once that happens, this is what the, uh, this much-vaunted expression, the thousand-yard stare, is. That’s the, um, emotional shutdown. Okay, the brain’s just emotionally shut down, and it said, okay, enough, and, um, operating, operating mechanically as a soldier, you can still do what some people still can do in that state, but operating mechanically as a soldier is often all you can do in that state.

35:30 You talked about cognitive therapy. The other thing I’ve read a lot about that is they say writing it down can even take it to, like, the next level, and I was wondering if that’s why you wrote, and if you find that writing these descriptions, because apparently once you write it down, your brain relives it and kind of deals with it, and puts it away. Yeah, it was definitely another reason I wrote the book, because it was an attempt to be cathartic, to try and process the past and make sense of it, and, um, you know, ‘cuz I want to get better.

36:02 I mean, I mean, who wants to constantly be reliving the past with flashbacks and nightmares all the time? So that was, like, definitely a reason. I, one of the reasons I wrote the book, and, um, I think, um, again, I was naive, though. You don’t think it would just be a magic wand. I think it, I think it has helped, but it, it hasn’t been a magic wand.

36:24 I mean, I mean, I mean, but having said that, I don’t know how I’d be if I hadn’t written the book, so you know, I might be, uh, six feet under now, or something. You know, did you ever think about not publishing it? Like, last year, were you ever like, I’m just not going to do this? Or did you have to get it out there? I, to get out there, because I want, I wanted, you know, I don’t want to force my story down the throats of anyone.

36:48 You know, it’s up to anyone, whether they watch this, or whether they read my book. And, um, but I wanted to try and raise awareness of what PTSD is, as well as what the reality is, actually, out there on the ground. I mean, this is five years now since you came back from Afghanistan. Is that right? Yeah.

37:09 Have you gotten better or worse, or how would you say is your health, mental, physical, everything? Um, good question. I think I’ve still, they’re still there, just talking about it makes it more difficult. I mean, it seems, it’s okay, it’s okay talking about abstract concepts. I’m okay with that.

37:35 Um, if you, uh, I mean, I, I did a radio interview yesterday. I won’t say the radio station, we love other media, and, um, I, uh, know they interviewed some experts on, like, PTSD, and then they said, right, okay, and now we’re going to talk to, like, two guys who have PTSD, and, um, and then just before they did that, they briefly explained what PTSD was, again, they said, you have nightmares and intrusive memories and flashbacks about things like this, and then all of a sudden with no warning, and I was, when I was wearing headphones, all of a sudden, with no warning, they just piped, um, screaming audio of an Afghan-like firefight with, you know, RPGs, and explosions, and, uh, people screaming, but peel back, peel back, and all kinds of stuff, and then, uh, I, I’d set the headphones off, because I was just like, I knew that if I listened to that, I wouldn’t be able to talk on the radio programme afterwards, because it’s, um, it’s, it’s like triggers, like that, um, or not even like that, with, you know, just, like, a door slamming.

38:50 Yeah, do you like being introduced to someone who suffers from PTSD, or do you hate that? And, and, and how how do you describe PTSD to people? Two questions there. Sorry, you, to go back to your question, I’m, I ramble a bit, I’m sorry. Um, yeah, um, I don’t mind.

39:06 Okay, I don’t mind the label, because, um, I, I accept that it’s part of me now. I think you, you have to accept it, you know, you know, to be able to, um, you to make something of your life, and, you know, it’s like knowing your enemy, or, used to, you know, like, soldiers’ terminology, and, uh, I don’t mind the label, because I just want to play my small part in raising awareness of what so many soldiers are going through now, and, like, so many actually aren’t putting their hands up, because they’re, you know, worried about losing their careers, and that kind of thing. So I don’t mind the label.

39:49 And, um, I’m sorry, one of the things that has been affected is my memory. So, oh, what was the second part of the question, please? You know, if, if people come up and just ask you quite plainly, what is PTSD? How do you describe it to them? It’s like living with the past.

40:06 It’s, it’s, it’s the past lives on in you, and, it’s, um, and when you re-experience, you know, the past with, uh, with flashbacks, with nightmares, in your mind at least, it, it isn’t the past, because it feels so, you know, so very real. It’s actually happening to you all over again. You can see it again. You can hear it. You can feel it.

40:35 Um, so it’s, it’s like, you know, the ghosts of the past are still with you, you know, particularly with the guys who died, and, and, and, um, it’s, it’s just, I’m okay with it. Say I’m okay with it now. I mean, I’ve, I’ve made room for the ghosts, and I accept that you know, for the moment at least, that’s all I can do. And, um, so, but, you know, certainly before, I, I was getting, like, psychological help, it was, it was absolutely terrifying, because I didn’t know exactly what was wrong with me.

41:13 I I would, um, you know, I’d be, like, sitting in that bank, and, uh, I’d be sitting in a, in a meeting in, you know, with, like, a conference call with, like, Hong Kong, or someone, like, speaking about some IT system, and then I, I would hear screams for medic, and, um, and that’s, that’s, I’ll admit, that’s, that’s very, very frightening, because it’s not just recalling a very frightening experience. It’s also frightening, because you’re not in control of your mind, and, as soldiers, you’ve been drilled, excuse me, you’ve been drilled that, um, you know, the mind rules a body, not the body rules a mind, and when you, you know, when you’re doing all the physical stuff, you’ll have this, you might have, like, some instructor screaming this mantra at you, or whatever, or you’ll have it through, you know, going through your head, and it’s all about, like, pushing on, pushing on, pushing on.

42:11 And, um, but then with PTSD, all of a sudden you realize that you’re not in control of your own mind, and that’s, and that’s quite, I think, that’s, that’s frightening from my experience for a soldier to admit to, because it’s almost like an, an admission of weakness, and, and, as soldiers, you’re, you’re trained to be as strong as you can be, individually, in yourselves. Um, so, um, I might be rambling again. I’m sorry, not at all. I, I think it’s really important that we let you express all these opinions.

42:49 I, that’s why I think this format’s really good to talk to you, because, Jesus, a ten-minute interview doesn’t really do the subject justice, and, um, I, I know Matt’s got a few questions, and I want to hear his questions. I just wanted to know, um, did, did you get checked in for treatment when you came back? I read a bit, part of the book where you were, and I just wonder if you could describe what kind of treatment you went through. Yeah, you know, with the Army, I put my hand up, um, very, very soon when I got back, when I realized that I wasn’t right, because um, it’s like, ’08, ’09, you’re back in ’08.

43:22 Yeah, okay, early 2008, I went back to the bank, and, um, within a few weeks, uh, even the bank realized I couldn’t do my job, and it was like, the screams, like the audible things that weren’t there. Absolutely. Did you have nightmares too? Yeah, yeah, and, um, any other way it manifested itself? The flashbacks, um, while you’re conscious, while you’re awake?

43:42 Absolutely. Okay, yeah. Uh, intrusive memories, um, uh, you know, nightmares, and, and, um and is it, is it very specific events, and were those events only in Afghanistan, or would you actually flash back to the second tour in Iraq as well? No, it’s definitely Afghanistan. Um, no, definitely Afghanistan, and, um, I think it, a lot of it focuses on, like, two days in Afghanistan, where, um, we lost a few blokes, and, um, yeah, so yeah, you can go, um, so I’m not going to go there.

44:18 That’s right, no problem. Okay, um, and, uh okay, yeah, and, um, so it would, it would kind of go back to those few things, and then you were having those flashbacks at the bank, and you were like, wait a second, something’s up here. Yeah, and the bank must have been like, what the hell, Jake, he’s not doing anything I did. Could they have, could they have sacked you, or is there Is there? They have to be very careful about that.

44:41 Well, we parted company in the end. Um, I mean, they realized that I couldn’t do my job, because, um, obviously, with one another way I can explain, like, PTSD is, like using the analogy of a computer CPU. Yeah, it’s Processing Unit. So, um, you’ve got, like, uh, maybe not on a Mac, but on a PC you’ve got antivirus software, and this can slow the computer down. It’s like this background process which is running in the background, and it’s using up all this memory, all this processing power, and that’s what I know PTSD to be.

45:17 Okay, the brain, the subconscious, is constantly trying to come to terms with these gargantuan quarantined memories. Okay, and that’s taken up, and that’s slowing down the rest of your brain, so you know, that means you’ve got problems with, um, working memory, uh, concentration, and, um, and then, basically, when you go back to a bank and you’ve got people reeling off these acronyms of, like, trading systems, the handling of complex information is, from my experience, just a joke. You know, I mean, you’re literally just like a blank.

45:57 You just like, I’ve got no idea what this person is saying to me. It actually reached a point where I was reading, I could read on my monitor this, like, business document, and I could read all the individual words, and they would make sense as individual English words, but I couldn’t piece the words together into a coherent sentence, so I just ended up reading the same sentence over and over again, and then the fact that I was doing that was stressing me out, and then that’s when this gray fog would come down, and then, sort of stabbing out of that, would come the memories. And, and, and, um, but there’s also a lot of physical symptoms as well, because obviously the mind’s connected to the body.

46:41 The mind rules the body, you know, and so I would have, um, sort of stabbing headaches that would come, and, and, um, and I’ll be, I’ll be brutally honest now, as I’ve been in the boat, you know, it affects your guts, man, man. You know, sometimes when I’ve got to go to, uh, I’ve got to go to the loo. You know, I’m okay now, touch wood. You know, um, but, um, it’s, uh, it’s a distressing condition, and, um, and the treatment of it, when you got back, so you raised your hand and you’re like, okay, something’s not right here.

47:17 Can you go to the Army doctors and just be like, what’s up? Did they, what did they do? Um, yeah, well, originally I tried getting treatment through, um, my company’s private healthcare system, but, uh, you know, they told me that they wouldn’t fund treatment because, um, my condition was caused by war. Uh, so it’s like any kind of insurance company, if a car is destroyed by war, they won’t pay for your car. Okay, um, so I had the same thing with my PTSD, which, kind of fair enough, anyway, but I understand that.

47:47 Yeah, as cold as it is, I understand that. Yeah, and, uh, but then I put my hand up with the Army, because I wanted to get better, and, um, and I did get very good treatment with the Army, very good treatment. Um, and, um, ultimately, what was that treatment? There was, it was, um, a lot of things, like, like CBT, like trying to talk about, you know, the trauma, and like forcing the brain, you know, to, like, process it. Right, cognitive behavior therapy?

48:20 Exactly, yeah, and then we tried things called, um, EMDR, which is, I don’t know, I can’t remember exactly what it stands for, but it’s moving your eyes, and it’s, uh, trying to access, like, different parts of the brain, and this, uh, emotional freedom techniques as well we tried, and I think all these techniques, um, they can and do work for a lot of guys and girls. Um, they just haven’t worked for me yet. Any medication? They must have been handing you pills left and right.

48:54 I’m on medication now. It’s, um, uh, yeah, this stuff called Metazine. I’m on the maximum dosage of that, so that’s a kind of, um, anti-depressant, and, um, anti-anxiety-like drug. So, uh, um, have you found certain things worked, certain things didn’t work for you? Um, yeah, I mean, uh, all the treatment I got, it was, I know it was really good treatment, and I know my psychologist, my psychologist was doing an awesome job, but it was just, I don’t know whether I wasn’t ready, or it was too raw.

49:32 Um, but it just hasn’t worked just yet, but, but I regard that as my failing and not my psychologist’s. The kind of, the cognitive techniques, those haven’t worked as much for you, but the medication has done something. Well, I don’t know. I don’t know how I’d be if I wasn’t taking it. You know, so you’ve been on that for three or four years?

49:49 Okay, and it’s just that one medication that you found that works, and you’re sticking with that? Um, I was described that, and, um, and I think, uh, I was on a lower dosage, but then I reached a… of Nadar, uh, a couple of years ago, where, um, I ended up being hospitalized, because, um, I was a danger to myself, um, and it was after that hospital stay that, you know, the dosage was upped, you know? Um, and, um, yeah, so I can imagine it’s helping. Okay, so you did, they put you in hospital for a while, but they didn’t, did they ever put you in, like, an institution for a couple of weeks, where they watch you, and, oh yeah, okay, all that stuff?

50:31 Oh yeah, it’s like all these, sh… you know, not jacket. I just, like, entry level, okay, you know, sort of thing. I’m just trying to get people, an idea, that haven’t read the book. Just for, cuz, cuz, you don’t come out with a lot of details. You actually hold a lot of details back, and so I think it’s hard for people to know.

50:47 Well, I’m sorry. Okay, no, that’s okay, but it’s, like, you know, the stuff that happened in Helmand, we don’t have to go there. Um, but I think people don’t understand that it was pretty serious, and obviously, you know, the medication and all that stuff was pretty serious too. So I’m just trying to get people to have an idea. You know, I can give, um, most of my issues with, uh, Afghanistan is, it’s almost what’s driving my PTSD.

51:10 I think it’s guilt. It’s guilt, in two parts. Um, I feel, one of the classic, like, PTSD symptoms, there’s, like, something called, uh, survivor guilt, where you feel guilty for having survived, where some of your buddies didn’t, and I feel guilt also over, um, a killing. There you go. And I’m not proud of it, but, you know, again, I’m not asking, I’m not asking for any sympathy.

51:49 I don’t deserve any, but I, um, it’s just something that I need to come to terms with, and, um, is this, an almost make a man’s, for an enemy that was killed, or someone, in your, in your, I feel they’re survivor guilt over, um, the guys, um, the British guys who were killed alongside me, as well as an Afghan Army guy, but I tried to help, but he died. Um, and then, uh, but then there’s, um, a guilt over the killing that I did, of, like, Taliban, and, um, you know, some viewers might go, well, you know, the Taliban, you know, what’s it matter? But the Taliban, that was the briefing we had, yeah, before we went to Afghanistan.

52:42 They were split into three groups, like tier one, two, and three, and, like, tier one was described as, um, you know, kind of Al-Qaeda types, you know, what other people would deem, like, fanatics. Like tier two is your, you’re kind of bog-standard, like Taliban, lots, warlords, that kind of thing, lots of people acting full warlords. Um, and then tier three, you know, the lowest tier, almost like the TA of the Taliban world, okay, is your what’s called $10 Taliban, and they’re basically farmers in the fields who the Taliban… the Taliban, I walk up to, I give him $10.

53:20 You know, I give him $10, which is a lot of money out there. I’ll give him an AK as well, you know, and then say right, only shoot, you know, shoot those British soldiers over there. And, um, I think if I was an Afghan farmer, and all I knew was what my, my relatives had told me about the British, as in the British just come to Afghanistan to take what they want, and then they f*** off without giving you anything. That’s the oral history being passed down.

53:58 Um, if that was all I knew, and, you know, these infidels over there blowing things up, you know, what I could easily see myself as being like $10 Taliban, and also these guys are just like farmers, and, um, so I mean, I can just about talk about this, but I’m not going to talk about our guys that were killed. Um, but the first time I ever fired rounds in anger, which is a counterintuitive phrase. You never fire rounds in anger, hardly ever. It’s very cold, like clinical action.

54:42 You have to very precisely aim, and you can’t do that if you’re angry, clearly, you know. Um, and, um, but the first rounds I fired for real, um, I, it was, I was on top of a hill, and, um, I was firing a 50 cal, a like a heavy machine gun, big thing on a tripod, and four Taliban, I ran into the compound down, you know, below, and, um, myself and the lad next to me, we were putting down, uh, a suppressing fire on this compound, you know, you to keep them pinned in place so an air strike could be brought down on them, and I remember, I remember, you know, deliberately firing a burst of, like, fire through, you know, the doorway, to, like, stop anyone escaping through that doorway, to the compound. And I, I remember walking rounds along, you know, the front wall, because I thought, oh, they might be trying, want to climb the walls to escape.

55:58 I remember thinking, right, I’m going to shut off all these all these ways, like, for them to escape their terrifying predicament, and all we’re doing is just, like, keeping them hold up there. For what happened next, which is, like, two F-15s, like, coming in, like, strafing run, strafing run, 500lb bomb, followed by another one. And, um, we had guys listening to a Taliban radio, and, um, with interpreters, and, uh, there was, um, later that evening, I went to, the one of the interpreters, one of the guys, one of the guys working with the interpreters, like, called me over, and, and he said, oh, you might want to take a look at our log book.

56:54 I’m like, okay. So, by, like, you know, like flickering, like candlelight, I, I read this, this radio conversation and it was, it was from one of the guys in that compound, and he was radioing his, his Taliban superior, um, and, um, the interpreter had had written down that he was basically asking, you know, for help. Um, he was what. And also the interpreter, like, could tell that this guy was crying. He was in tears, and, um, he was, he sounded injured as well.

57:37 Um, anyway, no one helped him, and, um, the next day, I, um, we heard from the locals that, uh, four men had died in that compound, three from blast injuries, which, which would be from, uh, the bomb, the bombs, and one had died, one had died from bullet wounds, and, um, I can, through process of elimination, it was, I think it’s, it’s, it’s perhaps probable that it was either myself or the guy next to me who had, who would’ve shot this guy, and that was probably the guy on the radio, because the guy killed by the bombs wouldn’t be able to talk. They were just like shredded, right? And I know this guy’s name, a Muser?

58:29 And, um, it’s, when, in like modern war, you’re offering, you’re offering firing at targets which are a fair distance away, not always, but, you know, but sometimes, and it’s all too easy for your enemy to be, like, dehumanized objects in scopes, and, uh, rangefinders. Um, but on my very first engagement, I all of a sudden, I, I had a guy’s name, and I, I knew he was terrified. I knew he bled to death alone at night, and, um, for all I knew, was just a local farmer, you know, I handed $10.

59:20 I don’t know, but, um, there’s a 50-50 chance that I did that. And again I’m not asking for any sympathy or anything like that, because I, I made, I made the conscious, like, decision, you know, to go to Afghanistan and, and, and I, I got to live with that, and I’ve got to try and, like, process that memory, among a, a host of others in the book. Um, and, um, try and do something, but constructive with the rest of my life, to kind of pay back for that. Is that what you’re… that’s part of it?

1:00:03 Okay, yeah. What’s the life like being a famous author? That’s what I want to know. I’m not sure if I’m famous. Books only been out a month, but, um, it’s, uh, it’s doing okay, which is really nice, um, because, um, you know, I hope, you know, I didn’t write it as an ego trip.

1:00:25 I mean, I, um, I’m very honest about my own thoughts and feelings in there, and, um, a lot of people disagree with them, which is, like, you know, completely they’re right. Um, but, uh, it’s, um, as for the experience of being an author now, and, um, and being on, like, shows like this, but thank you for inviting me. It’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s actually, it actually feels quite nice now, because it’s, it, it’s not soldiering, and it’s not banking, and, um, I’m just, I just hope that I can do something constructive now, and like speaking to you guys now, that’s, that’s, that’s part of that.

1:01:09 You know, if I can, I just, I’d just like to raise awareness of what PTSD is for a lot of other soldiers who may be, like, suffering in silence, and, and, um, if I can play a small part in doing that, then I think there, well, you know, I’m really curious to what, what thinks about this interview. I, I’ve known Matt for a few years. Slightly stunned to tell you the truth. I’m just kind of, oh no, no, don’t be absorbed. But for people that don’t know Matt, I mean, I’ve trained with Matt for a few years, and, um, Matt is, I would say, fascinated by the military.

1:01:39 Uh, you, you consider joining the Foreign Legion back in the day. All my life I, you know, wanted to join an army and be part of it all. I do sometimes regret that I didn’t. Um, has a dark flip side. Has a dark flip side, though, so I don’t regret too much.

1:01:54 Yeah, and I just want to, you know, you were talking about, you’ve even been to some recruitment centres in London over the years, and, uh, I just want to know, yeah, what you think of this, because obviously a lot of times we see the glorified version of war. We see the video games, we see the movies, which, except for a very few exceptions, are, you know, 98%, you know, the glory of the war. I would say, um, yeah, what are your thoughts? Man, went to two recruit centres, uh, one was a Royal Marine recruit centre, you, uh, one was in the power in Trogo Square.

1:02:26 I don’t think it’s there anymore. Um, yeah, you walk in there, and obviously they’re very pro to get you in there. There is no, nothing negative of, you know, of army. It’s just, you know, they know you want to be a para, they’re like, okay, come to us, our guys are the best. You know, yeah, um, yeah, and there isn’t really that much, you know, for somebody who’s pretty much gung-ho for their life, and they want to be part of this.

1:02:51 People don’t look at the negative sides, and, you know, maybe young guys should listen to stories like this a bit more often before they even think of war. Um, you know, my grandfather spoke of war. He was 17 when he got taken by the Russians when they were kind of liberating Slovakia and up towards Berlin, so, you know, every time I tried to get something out of him, you could see the, um, disorders over there. I don’t know, shell shock back then, whatever it was, but, um, it was pretty heavy.

1:03:19 He broke down most of the times, crying. I had some of it on the camera, cuz I used to always try to get out of him, tell me more, tell me more, but it was heavy. You know, a lot of times I wouldn’t get much out of him. Um, yeah, that was trench kind of… would get blown. He would run.

1:03:35 He would say in those days he would survive by playing dead. That was his tactics of surviving. He would just duck down, and, um, wait for the night to come, and then crawl back to the hole next day. It would be the same thing, cuz it was a Slovakian, they would give him another chance, I guess, so it was heavy duty stuff, you know, and back then I don’t think there was any post-treatment for, for him, for instance, you know, um, drinking most of his life.

1:03:58 Um, it was kind of swept to the side, you know, and yeah, yeah, you know, it’s great that things like this happen, where people kind of care about these things and speak about it, first of all, you know, cuz the old generation that was kind of swept under the rug, I guess. This is a, it just wasn’t. So my grandfather, he, he, uh, I think fair play, like your grandfather, for, like, trying to talk about it, because I think with previous generations it has just been, like, something that is not talked about, you know, um, and, um, you know, it wasn’t called PTSD back then, but, but this kind of, uh, this human normal reaction, you know, for some people to abnormal events, it’s been documented through history, you know, uh, the ancient Greeks and Romans talked about it, you know, they didn’t call it PTSD, but, but they were describing symptoms which, which are, are part of the, the PTSD, um, you know, diagnostic criteria, and, uh, American, like Civil War, they talked of a condition called soldier’s heart.

1:05:06 Um, again, you read the symptoms, you’re like, well, that’s, that’s PTSD, isn’t it? And, um, and then First World War, obviously, like, shell shock, and gradually, through the 20th century, it’s been slowly, slowly, like, gathering acceptance. Um, but I think a fair play to your grandfather for, you know, for trying to talk about it, because my grandfather, nothing against him, like, God rest his soul, but his way of coping was just to never talk about it, ever.

1:05:39 Never talked about it, right? I kind of found him a lot of times just get really angry with me just for asking, you know, so he would tell me some, some days, you’ll be in a better mood, or he would just kind of tell me a sentence or two. Some days I could see that he just zoned it out, and he just kind of, you know, like, waving your hand in front of his face, and you just be in a different state, you know, but you just wouldn’t get, you wouldn’t get much out of him, and it was like, sometimes you get really angry at me, why I bring this up, and kind of, you know, anger, lot of anger, completely understandable way of trying to deal with that, if you have no other education of how to do it differently, right?

1:06:14 Or self-medicate. I mean, we see Vietnam vets and heroin addiction. Of course, maybe that’s because it was over there as well, or drinking. I’m, I’m sure you medicated with alcohol on many occasions. Self-medicate with this, it’s a cigarette pen.

1:06:27 Just for the future, so any guest coming on London Real, you’re not allowed to smoke. Yeah, there’s no smoke, only, only vapor, only vapor. We may make an exception for Jake. Thank you. Um, but you know, Britain’s such a crazy place, cuz it’s a nation that’s just defined by war.

1:06:41 I mean, you walk down the street, and you can’t not see a memorial to World War I or World War II, or the Crimean Wars, or this, and it’s such a dense country that it’s like it’s always with you, you know, more so than America for me, really. Oh, definitely, definitely, because you don’t bump into it, you know, because you don’t bump into a memorial. People in San Diego that die from World War II, you know, you just don’t. But in Britain you just don’t, and we haven’t had, you know, we haven’t had the casualties.

1:07:11 I just don’t think we had the country that’s steeped in that much history of war, but here it’s just like the memorials, and they keep going up. There’s a new one for the Airmen in just off H High Park. Um, the Battle of Britain one, yeah, I think so, yeah, which is a stunning and powerful monument, but it just, it puts a, it must do your head in too, and put, like, lots of pressure on people to serve, and, um, or was that just the definition of a country?

1:07:36 I don’t know. I think, um, I’m, it’s one of the aspects of my country that I, I like, because I think, uh, because I, I, I still revere, you know, the guys who fought in the world wars, and, uh, but, but I think all I do, it all the more now, because I know how, like, some of them will have suffered, and I’m not comparing Afghanistan or Iraq to World War I or World War II. Why not, though? You know, there wasn’t, you know, the same level of, like, casualties.

1:08:12 Um, but, but and I think some of your viewers, um, may go, well, you know, there’s no… well, it’s like, compared, it wasn’t trench warfare and there was no kind of mass, uh, mass battles like that, but what for the soldier on the ground, um, you know, once someone’s, like, shooting at him, once someone is actively doing everything in their power to kill you, and you have to, like, try and return the favor. It doesn’t really matter what theatre of war you’re in. You know, it’s still a life-and-death, you know, struggle, and, um, so it’s not necessarily a quantity of incidents, or a cumulative nature of incidents.

1:08:53 You don’t have to see a thousand people die. It can be enough to see one or two. Yeah, I think, I mean, some people get PTSD from a single incident, um, and not just in, like, military life. It could be like a, like a car accident, or, like, seeing a car accident, um, where someone’s killed, or something. It’s, it’s, it’s a very natural reaction to abnormal events, um, in some people.

1:09:18 And, um, so I mean, when I was in Afghanistan, um, you know, there weren’t any kind of, uh, mass battles. There was no kind of trench warfare or anything as extreme as that, but, um, at times we were, you know, we were fighting every single day, and, you know, you, you know that can take its toll mentally afterwards, um, in my experience, and, and also, um, obviously, you know, physically for a lot of guys as well, um, whether, you know, they’re killed or injured. Um, yeah, actually, may mean in disability, in that kind of… absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, quite.

1:10:05 And I’m not, I know we haven’t talked about the, the physical injuries in, in this interview. I, it’s more about, you know, the mental side of things, and, and, um, but, um, so I, I don’t want to take anything away from the guys who have been, like, physically injured, but, but obviously this interview is about the mental side. Just back to that cumulative thing. Do you think if you hadn’t done that, too, in ’03 and ’05 in Iraq, that your condition would be less severe now, or different?

1:10:30 Um, I don’t know. A million-dollar question, but I think I think it might still be the same. Um, I know a, a psychiatrist who wrote, he wrote a report on me, um, and, um, I remember him, him, him documenting, and, and afterwards, me being aware, I was, yeah, okay. All my flashbacks and the nightmares and that kind of stuff, they’re all to do with Afghanistan. Iraq doesn’t really feature so much.

1:11:01 Um, whether it was a, a cumulative wearing away at my mental defences over a number of years, I just don’t know, but I know that all, all the flashbacks and stuff, they, they’re definitely from Afghanistan. Okay, um, I want to address this, sh. I don’t want to spend too much time on it, but you know, you’ve addressed it, and I think we should talk about it. You had one critic, and a really, a bad review on Amazon, uh, a guy that was, I think refuting some of the things you say, or the accuracy of your information.

1:11:32 You released some footage from your helmet cam, which I want to ask you about later. I didn’t even know if you could keep that stuff, um, that, that I think you were just showing for some of the situations you were in. You refused to release other footage that I think had the dine of a couple people that were in your unit. Um, who is this guy? Do you care?

1:11:50 Do you feel like you do need to refute this, because you’re in the, the public eye? What’s going on? Um, he was a guy um, in a unit I was attached to for my Afghanistan tour. Um, we did, we were in the same barracks, you know, together, while we were doing the predeployment training, but when we went to Afghanistan, um, we were in different teams, our teams were in different areas of the country, so I was in, and I was stationed at a place called Kajaki, and then later in the Sangin valley at a, a patrol base called, called, uh, FOB Inman.

1:12:37 This other chap wasn’t there, so, um, when he, when he accused me of, uh, lying and exaggerating my Afghan service, I, I didn’t see that I had any other option at that point, to other than, to, um, post my, to then post my helmet cam footage online as proof of my service. Uh, and, uh, obviously you know the bits where, where, um, our guys are being, you don’t see any of our guys being killed, because I owe them and their families that, and a whole shedload more. Um, but this, uh, this chap, um, I wish him well, and I’m not just saying that.

1:13:42 Um, I can understand that he felt that I had slighted his unit with a predeployment training that we had. Um, did you say they weren’t competent, or they weren’t doing things right? I didn’t, no. They weren’t competent at all, no, no, no. How did you slate them there?

1:14:02 No, it was more, you know, maybe I, I wasn’t in a position to, but I mean, at that time I was, I was, um, I was comparing the predeployment training in that unit with the unit that we were originally meant to go on tour with, and, uh, and the pace of training, um, was very different, and, um, it was, um, I found it, uh, I think you, this may be, like, you know, my perspective as a TA soldier. When you do, like, training, it tends to be very, uh, intensive and, like, frenetic, because you know, you could be training at a weekend, or in one, two, weeks’ period, so you have to cram as much training as you can into that time period, and so I think, I think perhaps, um, I got used to that intensity, and I was aware that we were going to war, and, and coming from a, um, a specialist TA unit, and then being, like, posted to a, a specialist regular unit who we were originally meant to go on tour with, um, I was used to this intensity of training, and, um, you know, we were literally training all the hours of every single day, and then all weekends were, you know, I felt they were earned.

1:15:35 Um, and, um, it’s just my opinion, but I didn’t feel that same intensity when I went to this man’s unit. Okay, um, but, um, also I think I just wish that he could read the rest of the book. Okay, so he saw that part, and kind of my opinion changes profoundly and very positively about his unit, and, um, um, I wish he could read the context, and, um, and know that I, I slag myself off as much as I might be, like, critical of, you know, a unit at one particular time.

1:16:22 What are your fellow soldiers saying now to you? Can you, can you, can, can you find any solace with them, or can they console you? Do they have the same issues you have? Um, do you ever even get to talk to him? Oh yeah, yeah.

1:16:35 I think, um, you, my second tour, that was, um, the HAC. It was an HAC deployment, so so, I meant now, really, I meant in the last few years, like, after this has happened. No, I’m still, you know, very, very good friends with all the guys I served on that tour with. Okay, especially the guys in my team. I mean, I’m, I’m godfather to, um, one of the guys’ daughters now, and she, like, staying with me.

1:16:59 You know, I think that’s, and, and a good friend, with, um, you know, um, you know, some of the guys that I went to Afghan with as well, and I think that’s very, very important, especially as a TA soldier, cuz as a regular soldier, you’ll do your tour as a unit, and you’ll come back as a unit, and you’ll, you’ll decompress. This is a very important point you’re making here. Okay, no, you got it. Please, um, you’ll decompress, you know, together, you know, to use, um, deep sea, you know, deep-diving pants, um.

1:17:33 So you do the tour as a unit, you can come back as a unit, and over the days, weeks, months, and then years that you’re back, you’ll, you’ll stay in that barracks life, in that barracks environment, you’ll stay in that, in that military environment, and you will gradually come down as a unit. You’ll decompress, you know, together with the guys that you were on tour with. And, um, this is gradual, so, this sort of, sorry, uh, blurring into, um, you know, normality back here as a TA soldier, as a reservist soldier.

1:18:08 You, you’ll never have that. You don’t have that. I mean, um, you’ll, uh, one day you’ll be in Afghanistan, as they fly you back. You might get, like, 36 hours in, in, like, Cyprus, which I call decompression, which is a nice gesture. I mean, don’t get me wrong, but yeah, and then all of a sudden you’re back home.

1:18:33 You have a few weeks’ leave, and then after those few weeks’ leave, you could find yourself, like, sitting at a desk in Canary Wharf, say, wherever it is, like, surrounded by people who, through no fault of their own, have not, you know, what you’ve just been, like, doing, or, like, seeing, or experiencing. And that is, um, you know, that can be an incredibly isolating experience. Um, that’s, just sounds nuts to me, that whole like night, day, black and white, and, like you said, through no fault of their own, but you’re sitting down next to these people that have been in Canary Wharf the whole time, and they are literally like, who, you know, what, who the f*** are you?

1:19:10 And, uh, you know, they probably even have this weird kind of animosity towards you, because they don’t understand you. And then, yeah, yeah, you get, um, it was weird coming back, because, I mean, you walk through those those like glass doors, or whatever, and you walk up to your old desk, very, very surreal, almost like an out-of- body experience. And, and then, um, you sit down, and, and then, yeah, okay, you would realize the only thing that has changed here is me.

1:19:39 And, uh, I remember being asked, uh, you know, from guys from other teams, you know, how long you been away, Jake? Uh, what, six months? Is it? I’ve been away for, you know, over a year, and that was terrifying to me, because they lost track of time whilst they’re doing this 9 till 5 existence, and, uh, and that was frightening, all of a sudden having to embrace this, from my perspective at that time, but gray existence all over again, and to be lost within it.

1:20:10 And, um, and so I could understand, like, some of the questions I got, um, uh, because it was almost like an insight into this world they’d only ever seen on TV, or whatever, or I read about in the newspapers, so there was the inevitable, you know, what was it like, question, which is impossible to answer, because it’s so, it’s so kind of open-ended, and, and just like, well, hot, it was hot. You know, what do you want to know? But then, of course, you get, you know, at the opposite end of the spectrum, like someone, like drilling down and saying, you know, something like, and I can’t blame them too much, because they didn’t really understand, but too much what they were asking.

1:20:54 But I mean, I remember being asked in a, in a kind of like semi job interview, you know, so what was the worst thing he ever saw? Uh, like, tell me about it. I was just like, man, what, in a job interview? Really, you know? Or, or, of course, you get the other one which is just, so did you kill anyone?

1:21:16 Which, it might be on people’s minds, but, but, but it’s, but it’s off on the wrong thing. You can ask a soldier when he’s back from tour, because, um, you know, even if you haven’t seen the whites of their eyes, or anything like that, it’s, it’s still a, it’s a very, very personal question, and and, and it’s how could you ask that? It just pisses me off. I was reading in the book when some of the guys are the alpha males in the group and they’re all, I don’t know, messing with you or asking you f***ing questions like that.

1:21:47 It just made me really angry, you know, like just ask a loaded question like that. It’s seems like for me I would just be like, don’t even ask me that, or you don’t even have the right to ask me that. That’s the feeling I think I would get, you know, if I just come back from that. It’s only yeah, actually, that’s, that’s actually, yeah, that’s actually pretty, yeah, kind of disrespectful, isn’t it? It’s just like, yeah, thank you.

1:22:08 Yeah, you guys are in tune. You know, you’re right. Yeah, it’s, um, it’s, it’s almost you can almost understand the ask in it, but it’s almost like they don’t know exactly what they’re asking, because if they could know exactly what it was that they were asking, they wouldn’t answer. You know, they wouldn’t ask a question in the first place, because if you’ve, is assuming you’ve got any attached emotion, like, to your killing, which is a whole other thing.

1:22:38 Um, but assuming you’ve got some repressed and, like, buried deep down inside about it, you don’t, it’s not the question you want to be asked, like, first thing when you sit down at your desk. No, no, as you get back, I think also in the banking there’s not exactly welcome home. No, and I also think in the banking industry there’s a lot of posturing and a lot of, uh, yes, you know, alping and bullying, and I think maybe they don’t even know, but I bet just your presence there makes them uncomfortable, because you’re a reminder that they’re not doing that job, that they would never be able to do that job.

1:23:10 Maybe they would be scared to do that job, and maybe subconsciously they, they, they find some tension with you, you know, in a little bit of defence of them, you know, and maybe some of it’s just ignorance, you know. Yeah, might, I had thought about that. Yeah, okay. I think probably some of it’s just passive aggressiveness, because like, they I mean, you know, it’s in the city, you compete with each other by bonuses, or who’s got the Ferrari, and who’s got this, but like, they can’t really get one up on Jake, who’s just come back from Helmand.

1:23:35 You know, it’s like, you know, I can’t actually, you know, what I kind of remember that now. I remember a guy asking me, and it’s really kind of, um, flipping off, and, um, way so, uh, so did he get any good kills? Yeah, but we said it in such a way that it was almost like not a challenge. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was almost like, like a challenge, in a way, and, um, you know, I just, I just refuse to answer questions. I pretty much, you know, I don’t want, I’m doing now, just looking away.

1:24:00 Yeah, it’s a great way to kind of belittle what you did, make you feel kind of bad, make him still feel all right, and move on. It’s interesting to hear that psychology, though. It’s a way, I think it’s a way of them dealing with the situation, because, I mean, seriously, you’re, you’re such a, I, I was in that industry, and you don’t really get many people like you that have just walked back from a situation, you know. We can deal with all the other guys.

1:24:21 We can deal with the up-and-coming guy. I can deal with the Oxford grad, because he’s just a bookworm. I can deal with the East Ender guy, because he doesn’t know s***. I make my money. I can deal with it, but when you’re, you’re like a, um, a fluke, you know, when you come in the office.

1:24:34 So I’m sure you had a lot of reactions, like a freak, like a, like a wild, yeah, like a wild card. It’s like, oh man, I don’t know what to say about Jake. I can’t really, I can’t really, uh, you know, do all these other things. But anyways, that’s just, uh, not too many guys have been there, so you know, that’s why I guess you’re used to everything else, right? Yeah, you don’t have too many soldiers coming in, you know, so well, no, going to be a bit different, but pretty much the questions lasted half a day, and then there was nothing more.

1:25:00 Yeah, that was it. It was just business back to usual, but of course if you have PTSD, it’s it’s never back to business as usual. I think it’s weirder sometimes when they don’t ask you. You know, I mean, like I mean, this is a horrible comparison, but I, I used to train some mixed martial arts, and sometimes I’d come to work with a big black eye, and a lot of people wouldn’t say anything. They wouldn’t ask me about my eye.

1:25:22 They’d be like, hi Brian, and I’d be like, hi, and they’d be like, how’s your weekend? It’s fine. No one asked me about my black eye, and it made it worse. And I’m just wondering, if, if, for some, sometimes it was just worse when people wouldn’t talk to you about it, or if they would ignore you. There’s like an elephant in the room kind of thing.

1:25:38 Yeah, like, almost like we better not talk to Jake about that. Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of, yeah, I don’t know. I, I’d rather have that than the questions like, did you know, did he kill anyone? Okay, those kind of questions you know, I can understand that some people’s, um, awkwardness, when they don’t know what to ask, because, you know, through no fault their own, they, you know, they haven’t got life experience, and with some people I have noticed that they’re almost, they’re trying to find the right thing to ask, or, or like, say, and, and this, this is where I try and help them out now, you know, and, uh, I’ve been taught to try and talk about things to open up, and that way you can try and process it.

1:26:19 So, um, I try, and, um, I try to help him out now, if they’re, well, meaning. I think people just don’t know how to deal with a soldier, and you should have seen some of the questions I got. They’re like, ask him if the war was terrorism or capitalism, ask him what it’s like to be paid to kill people. But I don’t think any of those people, if they sat down with you for the last hour, I mean, these are silly questions to ask you, but by what you’ve just told us, because they’re just so not relevant.

1:26:44 I relevant. I, yeah, they’re just not relevant to your experience. In my, might, part of your… I mean, before you go, I mean, I mean, you might, you might entertain questions like that as you, as you try to justify, or not, why you’re going there, you know, why you might soon die, or be worse, be maimed. Um, why you might have to kill, and and, um, but once you’re actually out there you’re not thinking about this stuff at all.

1:27:15 You just thinking about, um, about your kit, you know, your mate next to you, and then when you’re out on patrol you just got your head on a swivel, all watching out for dirty Taliban, and, and that, that’s, it’s a very simple black and white existence, and, and, um, at times the soldiers will relate to this. I, I miss it, so, which sounds, you know, there’s part of me which misses it, and there’s another part of me, which, in, it’s in direct conflict with that, which is like, that’s the last place I ever want to go to in my whole f***ing life, and there’s, there’s a real kind of dichotomy there, and it’s, there’s a lot of, you know, I’ve got split personality, or, I, but, but there’s a lot of conflict. I, makes sense.

1:28:08 Do you worry that people see you as a vet, and they just do this kind of hero worship thing, like you saw it with the guys, the firefighters that went into the World Trade Center, and everyone just says they must be good people, cuz they did these great things, and then you come back and you’re like, I’m actually just this really flawed dude that’s got my own problems. I, I was a hero, but people want to prop you up. Hell, maybe even we’re doing it in this interview, by like saying, and do you dislike that, or how do you deal with that whole kind of hero worship thing?

1:28:37 Uh, we don’t get it so much in this country. Okay, that’s one of the things that I’ve, I’ve really seen in contrast, you know, contrasting like public attitude, like general public attitude, um, of soldiers, you you veterans in here, like compared to in America. And, um, I don’t know if in America it’s, it’s a hang-up from, um, you know, the Vietnam vets being not treated very well. Could be. I don’t know, maybe it’s that, but combined with, um, you know, 9/11, and this great sort of, um, stir of patriotism, and, you know, this country hasn’t been attacked on a scale like 9/11 since, like, the Second World War.

1:29:32 Yeah, and I think I can only, like, try to understand the impact that would have on a national psyche, you know, an attack like that. And, um, the times I’ve been to America, I mean, I went to America immediately, pretty much immediately, after coming back from Afghanistan, like, during my leave, you know, before going back to work, and, and, um, I was struck by the, um, fantastic support that the American like veterans get, and, um, even, even as British veterans, we were told, yeah, just show your military ID and you’ll get, like, forces discounts here, there and everywhere, and f*** me, we did, and, and even went in bars, and it’d be, uh, you know, we’d have rounds bought for us, and, and, uh, I’ve never had that in this country. And I’m not asking for it either.

1:30:28 I’m not asking for sympathy or anything like that, but it was, it was interesting to see, uh, yeah, the contrast of, in, like, public, you know, support, and I think in this country, you know, well, just from my experience anyway, um, you know, as a veteran, I’ve never been spat on, or, like, killed, a baby killer, or anything like that, although online I’ve seen a few comments on the Daily Mail article, and it’s interesting, you know, um, but, um, from my experience there’s been this feeling of almost been, you know, just overlooked by this, um, celebrity culture, where, I mean, you know, for instance, if you take that Daily Mail article, okay, so the Daily Mail, they wrote an article about my book, and then, you know, you know, I read about it there, and then all along the entire right-hand page, all the way down, and, almost, you know, beyond, you know, the end of my article, was, um, all the stories about, you know, celebrities who’s wearing what, who split up with who, uh, what Paris have for breakfast, you know, whatever it is, you know, and that’s, there can be this feeling of, um, yeah, just being overlooked by things that don’t actually mean anything.

1:32:07 It’s this sort of, just seems vacuous, you know, this, you know, this, you know, this lovely culture. And I can remember, like, sitting on the tube, um, and, um, off, got back from Afghan, and, and, um, there’s a man beside me reading the, uh, the paper, I’m not sure which one it was, and he’s flicking through it, and then, um, then all of a sudden I saw a picture of, um, a guy’s face, that he’s called Dax, and he was our company commander, and he was killed, and, um, I saw his face in the paper, just like, and I recognized that photo, because I was only yards away from him when it was taken, and, um, but I didn’t have a chance to, like, covertly read anything that had been said about him, because, you know, the chap just, I looked at this picture of of an unknown soldier.

1:33:12 I flicked it over, and then he just absorbed himself in the, you know, celebrity news about who’s who’s boyfriend are just overdosed, and all this kind of stuff, and, um, I know in this country there’s a lot of people who are supportive, and, um, I can’t speak for all servicemen, but I will say that we are grateful for that, but, um, an awful lot of people couldn’t give a s***. Okay, they could not give a s***, honestly. They might play lip service, but, um, they’ll be more interested in what’s happening in big brother or whatever it is.

1:33:56 Are they ready for this book? I mean, is it 2013? Are people ready to read this book, you think, in the US or the UK? I hope so. Um, it’s up to them where they read it.

1:34:07 I mean, I say I don’t, I’m not going to force it down anyone’s throat, but but, um, I, I hope that people can maybe read it, and, um, I’ve had to confront my flaws as a person in it. Um, we all have our flaws, um, but also I hope that people can read it, um, and, and hopefully respect it for its honesty, um, and then hopefully, um, learn about what so many more soldiers apart from me are actually going through at the moment with PTSD, and, um, like I said, we, we live among you now, and our numbers are growing, and I wanted to, I wanted to give these people a semblance of a voice. I mean, I mean, just in increasing awareness about PTSD.

1:35:08 What would be your one goal from this book, if you could just have one? Would it be that, that, that you guys get the, that the PTSD survivors get the respect from the public, or get the awareness, or is it more than that? I feel uncomfortable asking. I know I was talking about, you know, celebrity culture earlier, and I, I feel uncomfortable asking for respect, because it’s almost like they’re demanding it, and you know you can never do that. No, but you wrote this book, and this is a statement you’re making, so you must, it’s, want something, ideally, some kind of outcome.

1:35:40 It’s just, um, it’s just a statement of, of honest opinion, of my opinion, and it’s a statement of fact about what, from my view, the reality is out on the ground out there, and what the, the psychological repercussions can be when you come home. And, um, I just, if I could achieve one thing, it would just be playing my, my very small part in, and telling people, who, who, that guy sitting on the train beside him, he could be someone like me, who, who, who, um, is, uh, suffering. Anyway, fair enough.

1:36:29 Have you, have you, um, considered some of these, you know, that we’re actually having a doctor here on Friday who specialises in doing research with, uh, you know, MDMA and psilocybin mushrooms for a lot of the, of the brain, and for people, you know, suffering from PTSD, and stuff like that, and I was just wondering if it’s something you’ve ever considered, cuz it’s something we talk a lot about on this show, the benefits of, of psychedelics, that kind of thing. Have you ever considered something like that, uh, for you? I, taking drugs?

1:36:58 Well, okay, we could call it, I guess, a drug, but yeah, taking say an MDMA or a psychedelic substance, to, I don’t know, potentially confront some of those places in your brain that, like, you say have been shut down. Um, I haven’t considered it, and, uh, and I wouldn’t, because, um, I don’t want to start going down any kind of, like, slippery slopes. Uh, um, um, some guys and girls, they, they can, they can self-medicate you know, to try and take the pain away.

1:37:31 Yeah, and, um, this involves, um, alcohol, drugs, even smoking, you know, and this is my no-no. Um, you know, and, uh, so I’d be, you know, you know, just personally speaking, for me, I’d be wary about, um, about going down a route like that, because it, it might well take away the pain, but then I’d be thinking, oh, okay, I’ll just take this again, and that’ll take it, I’ll take the pain away again. I don’t want to be a drug addict. Well, um, and I respect that, but I am going to send you a couple of our previous episodes, because, um, okay, some of these substances, uh, you know, some people can call them drugs, but they’re actually medicines, and there, I’m sure, I don’t know them very well, that’s okay.

1:38:16 Um, you know, one of them I would suggest you look into is ayahuasca, which is something that’s drunk in the jungles of Peru, and, um, there is nothing, uh, fun or escapist about it. As a matter of fact, it usually makes you confront certain things about yourself that you’re not going to do in normal consciousness. And, um, I would say it’s not escapism by any means, and as a matter of fact, what it does more is makes you confront a lot of things in your life, and it’s something that I experienced last year, as Matthew knows, and, uh, in some ways it made me, um, get more comfortable with my own consciousness, and, and, in some ways, eradicated some of my own, like, abusive behaviours that are probably pent up from from my own bad memories of the past.

1:38:54 So, uh, that’s just something, um, that I’ll be sending you a few articles about, but definitely look into it, um, because, uh, some of these psychedelic substances, they are being used, and even MDMA, they’re finding, being used in some therapeutic ways, because they’re a way of, of just promoting some of these, um, uh, feelings in some people with some traumatic experiences, not as an escapism, but as a, as a way of, of potentially therapeutically getting them back. I’m not convinced with the MDMA research, but I do think that the psychedelics have something there. It’s interesting about, you know, the fact you’re talking about there, where it’s actually, uh, forcing your brain to confront things that otherwise you wouldn’t normally, consciously, you know, be facing, because that sounds an awful lot like CBT and, and exposure therapy, where you’re, you know, the theory is, you try and confront these experiences in your brain, like, consciously, um, and, and thereby, like, process them, and, and thereby, again, lessen their impact.

1:39:52 So, um, for me, it seems so clear that if you don’t confront these things in your brain, then you’re going to, your brain and your body will, will, will, uh, presume these behaviours, that find a workaround, whether it’s, uh, it’s, uh, you know, whether it’s substance abuse or not, confronting certain situations, or being hyperaware, and that ultimately you’re going to have to try to confront these things. And our, my, my ayahuasca shaman, she has a group of heroin addicts that she works with. She has a group of cancer patients that are trying to deal with their own mortality that she deals with.

1:40:22 She’s got a whole set of people that have been sexually abused in their childhood, and these sessions are all about them dealing with these memories that they can’t find any other way to access, because there’s only so much, as I’m sure you know, cognitive behaviour, you know, you might be in that chair for 10 years talking about something. Yeah. So, uh, anyways, I thought I would just ask you about that, and mention it. Thank you. I’ll definitely look at it.

1:40:45 Um, because yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s one, it’s one thing talking about the experience, but then if, if your brain is shut off, all the emotions attached to it, you know, at the point at the point of the therapy isn’t actually achieving anything. Yeah. Now you have to, like, tap into the associated emotions, which your brain is locked down, it’s locked away. You have to relive them, even though it’s the last thing you want to do, to actually, um, like, get anywhere in therapy.

1:41:10 I know the theory. Yeah, I think a lot of times people get caught up in language, and as soon as you hear a word like MDMA, or, um, psilocybin mushrooms, it’s like that’s a drug. No, no, no, that’s what those bad people do over here, in the clubs. And, uh, it’s, it’s a shame as opposed to alcohol, which is what those intelligent people do in the pubs when they fall over and break themselves, or, or cigarettes, which is legal. So, um, anyways, I just kind of wanted to bring that up.

1:41:35 Um, one, yeah, oh, I’ll read it on. Yeah, I’ll send you that stuff. Um, Matthew, I mean, this has been so interesting, and we’ve got a little bit more time left. Um, you know, my brain’s been so fried by this, because it’s just so much information. Jake, you’re so honest.

1:41:48 Um, I’m sure I’m missing a bunch of questions, but, uh, is there anything that you wanted to ask? I’m just shocked, I’m just kind of absorbed by all this info. Um, you don’t have to ask anything if you don’t want to. What, how did you get that helmet cam footage, and do they not confiscate it? Are you allowed to take it out?

1:42:07 Has the Army, uh, have you had any issues legally with them, where they could sue you? Or, I just wanted to ask those general questions. Nothing I’m aware of, so everyone’s allowed to take those pictures and video footage out of, uh, as far as I’m aware. Okay, all right, fair enough. In terms of young guys that want to join the military, is there anything you would advise in terms of maybe researching it a bit more, or things that they should be aware of?

1:42:29 More. This is where, uh, I don’t think the Army will ever use me as a recruiting tool. Um, but, um, I would say it’s almost like, I, I could speak to my younger self, and I just, I would ask him, or them, to, to just find out as, as much as they can about the reality, and then, um, to make as much of an informed decision as they possibly can. You know, cuz, um, but as a young man, you know, for sure, um, he can be very not gung-ho, but, but you, you know, you’re young, dumb, and full of come.

1:43:17 You want to you know, you know, thrusting, and all, and, and, uh, and the Army seems like this exciting walk of life, and it is, it is absolutely, um, but there’s a dark flip side, potentially. Um, and, um, as long as they’re aware of that, then, okay, cool. I, I would be the worst of hypocrites. You had to say don’t join the Army. Worst of hypocrites, so I, I can’t say that.

1:43:50 I can’t say that I don’t think they necessarily want to be aware of it, you know what I mean? If, if you want to do this all your life, last thing you want before you go, recruit, is that you want somebody telling you the negative of war. You know, you’re, you know, I kind of felt like since I was a kid that I wanted to join. Yeah, and you know, I felt like my dad kept putting me off by saying, go to university for five years, then we’ll see, and he kept kind of like distancing me from this whole thing.

1:44:14 Um, and it’s just towards the 30s I started kind of calming down more, you know, but yeah, yeah, even then I felt like, you know, I should have done it, or I should have, or when you hear Jake talk, does it make you still wish that you had been there, you had had your own experience? Yeah, in a way. Yes, in a way. I, I do feel like, okay, thanks a lot, just screwed up, thanks, screwed. I just, yeah, that’s interesting.

1:44:41 I think you just have to experience it. I don’t think, you know, that’s the negativity of war, but at the same time, you know, you can never say that you’ve done it, and in a way, no matter how negative it is, it’s just, it was your dream all your life, or whatever, or ten years of your life, or fifteen, and you never followed that dream, so in a way you’re kind of thinking, f***, why did not do it? You know, I’m yeah, I do regret it sometimes, and even hearing the negative of it, I do kind of think maybe I should have done it.

1:45:13 I think, I think a warning on the label, just like a smoky morning, might even make a 20-year-old want to do it more. You know, yeah, me, like, I, it, yeah, I mean, when you’re young like that, we know, as guys, when you’re young, I mean, Jesus, man, you just want to. Before I went to Afghanistan, I remember, like, seeing, like, helmet cam footage of, uh, the Paras in Helmand in, like, 2006, and I was just like, I need to be there, right, and it’s like this sort of d-based siren song calling me, you know, and it was just, it sounds deranged, and again I’m not making any excuses, but for myself, but there are an awful lot of young men and women who do feel that way, and, and, and, um, it’s, it’s, it’s just the way it is.

1:45:58 And, um, you know, the Army is never going to, you know, they’re never going to employ someone with PTSD to stand up in front of young recruits and go, actually, this is how it can end up, you know, because you know that’s not a recruiting tool. But it’s interesting, you know, to hear you, yeah, like, saying that, because it’s, it’s almost, and I can relate to it as well, because it’s almost like, um, living before dying, and, and it’s, um, you know, you know, I guess a lot of it, how you’re brought up. I was brought up in a military family, and, um, I was drawn to the, the darkness.

1:46:39 You see, my family, you know, every time I spoke about it, my dad would be like, are you crazy? You know, you know, it would be everybody would be against it. You know, it’s, yeah, you want to join the military, don’t have a girlfriend, be single, you know. My family would not give me any support. You know, your girlfriend would be on top of your back going, are you crazy?

1:46:58 As well, you know. So you don’t get any support if you don’t have that background in your family. Yeah, there you go. That’s interesting to see your reaction, even after this. It makes sense.

1:47:09 If people want to see the helmet cam footage, they can come find you on Facebook. You’re, uh, it’s Jake Wood, Among You, is how they find you. Is that right? Uh, yeah, Jake Wood of Among You. Yeah, um, I would, I would say that the only reason I posted it on there was to, um, uh, refute allegations of my, quote, lies and exaggerations about my Afghan service.

1:47:33 That’s the only reason it’s on there. Okay. Do you want people to see it, or is it not, not really? Or, well, it’s on there now, and, um, you know, people can make of it what they will. There’s whole sections of it.

1:47:46 You know, not everything’s on there, obviously, because it would be hours long otherwise, right? Um, but, but there’s, there’s you get snippets of, like, certain things, and, um, you know, the peace and the noise, right? As well. Yeah, I saw both of that. Do you want me to put a link on the YouTube video to that, or do you want me just to let people, if they want to find you, they can?

1:48:07 It’s totally up to you. Okay, now, fair enough. What’s, what’s next for you? Are you a, are you a writer now? Uh, is it, I mean, you pretty much poured your life into one book, so are you going to try to write more in the future?

1:48:19 Or what’s 2013 like for you? I hope so. Um, yeah, I would like to write in the future, because I found that it’s something that I can do, in a manner that I’ve got PTSD, and I say that because I can write completely at my own pace, and if I have a night full of nightmares, and then, you know, the next day I literally cannot work, and my brain does not work, which happens commonly. Um, I can take that day off, as it were, like, try and restock, and I can write in the times that are good for me.

1:49:05 I’ve got no one breathing down my neck, and, um, I can, I’m, I’m hoping that this, you know, this can be a future for me now, um, writing. But I think it’ll be a little bit of time yet before the next one’s published. Yeah, fair enough. I, I flipped through this just to get more of the facts, more than anything, although I got a feel for it, and there’s a lot of things we didn’t touch on here. There’s some, um, romantic relationships that seem quite key in the storytelling, as you can only imagine it would be, you know, when you’re over there.

1:49:37 It sounds like you’re very emotionally vulnerable from that standpoint. It’s part of the story, and, you know, again, it’s, um, it’s something that I wanted to, like, talk about, because, um, you know, there’s this concept called, you know, a Dear John letter, which is where, essentially, like, soldiers are dumped by their other halves while they’re on tour, either by phone or email, or, uh, a Dear John letter. Um, and, um, I felt that that experience needed to be in there.

1:50:07 I mean, not just because I, I wanted to be emotionally honest in the book, but also because I don’t think the emotional effect that that can have on a soldier, who’s on tour and facing life and death the next day, potentially, I don’t think that’s been talked about very much, as far as I’m aware anyway, and, and, um, as you know, Anthony Swofford and Jarhead talked about a little bit, and, and, uh, I respect him for doing that, because it’s, if you’re a soldier on tour, and if you love your girlfriend, your other half, and if you suspect, or imagine, if you imagine that she’s being unfaithful, um, I’m not saying that girl was, um, then the way that can play on your head, it can plague, plague your head while you’re on tour. Um, is, uh, is not healthy.

1:51:05 So I, I wanted, I wanted to write about it, because I, again, I just wanted people, you know, to know what the effect of, like, certain actions are, and if, if a girl, like, you know, dumps a guy on tour, if he loved, uh, this, this can be the reaction, you know, the mental reaction, you know, for some guys at least. I’m not saying for all guys, but, but I mean, um, it it definitely got to me, and it started, um, plaguing my head. Did you have a particularly low moment when you were in Afghanistan?

1:51:37 Where, I, I watched another interview where I think a young boy, like, pointed, pointed a gun at you was in Iraq, was in Iraq, was, and, and I mean, we’re almost done, but I was wondering if, if you could just tell us, just roughly what was going through your head, and how you were feeling, and, and was it, were you having issues with, with a woman as well? Yeah, um, that happened, uh, a few days after that relationship ended, and, um, in a Dear John type of way, or, yeah, um, and it was probably made worse by the fact that, this, you know, the girl I was going out with at that time, that was, she was the first girl that I’ve ever truly loved, so it’s like losing a first love when she’s thousands of miles away, and there’s nothing you can do about it, and you just have to accept, you just have to take what’s given to you, and, um, because she was my first love, I think, um, I, it, it hit me hard, and, and, um, I, I found myself in a bunker that night with, you know, a pistol on my chin, and, and I, at a moment I was like, what the hell are you doing?

1:52:46 You know, because it can, you know, it’s, I thought about my family, and, and, uh, you, my mom and my dad and my brother, in those, in that moment, I thought, I can’t do this to them, and I thought, I thought about my friends, you know, actually interact with me. I mean, they’d have to clear out the mess. This is a pistol on your chin, as in a suicide attempt, and thoughts, so I didn’t do that. Um, yeah, but then, uh, just a couple of days after that we were on patrol, which is the instant you’re talking about, and, um, I was doing top cover on the back of a Snatch, and, uh, which is an armoured Land Rover.

1:53:21 Um, so I was standing on the back of that, and, um, we pulled up to a traffic junction, and our vehicles are, like, trying to edge their way through the traffic. I’m on the back of the rear vehicle, so I’m, I’m not covering sides and rear, and, um, you look through your rocks, left to right, near and far, 180° up and down, and, uh, you’re looking for suspicious bits of rubbish, that kind of thing. I clocked a child beside the vehicle, right beside the vehicle, but in that moment he, he wasn’t a threat and things, so I was just like, okay, so, you know, I checked all around, and just a few seconds, uh, just a few seconds later, I looked down, and, um, I looked back at him, and, and he’s, um, he was, he’s holding a pistol up, and, and just pointing at my face, and, um, how old is he?

1:54:17 I think he was, he couldn’t have been any more than eight, and, uh, yeah, it’s just, he was smiling, and he was smiling as he held this pistol up on my face, and, and, uh, it literally just, from, uh, just, you know, like, two metres away, right below the vehicle, and, and, um, and that’s it. An interesting moment, because I could have been, I suppose, by the Rules of Engagement, I could have been justified in shooting him, but I mean, who the hell wants to kill an eight-year-old boy? I sure as hell didn’t, and, um, who wants to kill a little boy?

1:54:59 I, I didn’t want to kill a little boy, and, um, no matter if he was holding a pistol up to my face, and, and, uh, but also, also at that moment I will admit, and again it’s an admission of weakness, but I’m, I’m as human as everyone else, and, um, there was, there was a couple of seconds in that standoff as I just held him up, I held him out, you know, and, and, and, uh, where I just, I just do it now, go, and just do it. You know, I just pull the trigger, and, um, so I just, I just stare at him, and, um, I think that freaked him out, because I don’t know, I don’t know what he was expecting, but, but I, I got the impression how I reacted was the last he’d expect me to react, because I could see his hand starting to, um, his little hand starting to shake, and then, um, and then his smile went, and, um, he looked really distressed, really distressed, and then, um, and then all of a sudden, vehicle gunned it, and we’re away, and I, and I just looked back, and I just saw this little figure, just, you know, like, arm down by his side, and just getting small and small, and then our little private moment was gone.

1:56:36 If one of your fellow soldiers saw you, would they, they would, they have said, shoot him, Jake, or would they have just reacted in that way? I’m sure, it, I was ashamed. I was ashamed of the way I reacted because I felt that I should have done something, not shoot him, but, um, I felt I should have, like, called a halt to the vehicle. I got out, walked out to him, grabbed the bloody pistol out of his arm, maybe given him a, you know, just a slap and a shout at him, because it’s a monumentally stupid thing he was doing, because, you know, if it was another soldier, he could have just been shot.

1:57:20 Um, but if you take away the fact that he still got the pistol, I think, um, I don’t think he’d ever do that again. I just saw the look in his eyes, and I don’t think he’d do that again. Um, I think they need to make a movie about this, Jake. That scene, that scene alone would be pretty, uh, pretty intense. You know, a lot of people, um, yeah, a lot of people read the book.

1:57:50 They, yeah, they keep on mentioning this, and it’s um, yeah, it was, it was almost a defining moment of that tour. I mean, there was a lot leading up to that, and yeah, that was almost, yeah, but that was very near the end of my tour, and, um, yeah, it kind of summed up that part of the tour, really. Yeah, that scene itself says a lot without, with no words being said. Yeah, between the two of you. Um, J, uh, thanks for your honesty about that stuff and about this whole interview.

1:58:26 No, thank you for listening. You’ve asked intelligent questions, and it’s been, um, as pleasurable as it possibly can be yeah. I know. So, no, thank you for your patience, and, and your, you know, your intelligent questions. So thank you.

1:58:42 You know, I, I said right before I said, let’s, let’s have fun, but I knew this wasn’t going to be a fun one. Sorry, but, uh, you, it can’t be a fun one, because we’ve had to talk about a lot of these things, and I’m still probably leaving stuff out. Um, uh, and, um, we are actually giving away five copies of your book. Are we not? Are they going to be signed copies?

1:59:00 There will be signed copies. Fantastic. So, um, we’ve got five copies of Jake’s book that we’ll send out to you, uh, anywhere in the world. We’re going to be basically picking the best quotes that are tweeted from this episode, so it can be a quote, probably from Jake, since, or maybe Matt. I don’t think I said anything interesting, much, but if you take this quote, and, uh, and tweet it, and, um, put, of course, our Twitter link, which is LondonRealTV, and, uh, put, uh, the Bitly link or the YouTube URL, we’ll send that out.

1:59:27 Um, and just tweet that out, and we’ll be picking the five best ones. You’ll get a copy of this book. Um, I’m going to go home and reread it, and I’m not joking about the movie rights to that. If, if someone does want to contact you about the movie rights, how do they get in touch with you? I know you have a Twitter handle, but you don’t use it, kind of, right?

1:59:42 Uh, yeah, I’ve got a, as an, uh, au author’s Facebook page. Uh, Jake Wood, author of Among You. They can, me, you there. I can message me there, or, or or get, or get in touch with my publishers, Mainstream Publishing. Okay, um, so fantastic.

1:59:57 And also, I’m going to say that if you do get a book sent to you by Jake Wood, go to Amazon and leave him a review, uh, for authors. That’s gold, isn’t it? Well, thank you. Well, yeah, it’s very nice when people do. Um, so they like it, and as I said, I can understand that one review is, um, I can understand where he’s coming from, so I, um, I don’t, I don’t condemn him for, you know, his views, and I hope one day that hopefully he can appreciate my emotional honesty as much as I respect his position.

2:00:34 So, but, but having said that, I’m I’m deeply grateful, I’m deeply grateful for the people who have read the book and liked it, and who’ve left such, um, in some cases beautiful reviews. So yeah, well, I’m glad, um, I’m glad you addressed him, and you know, put the footage up, and at least, at least you address what he said, and I think that’s an intelligent way of doing it. And anyone who might be listening on iTunes, if you want to watch this on YouTube, you can see, you know, I mean, a lot of this interview, Jake’s been, you know, reliving a lot of these memories, and, you know, you know, it’s he’s obviously very sincere, and, and sometimes uncomfortable, and, and, uh, yeah, I know this hasn’t been the easiest two hours for you.

2:01:13 It’s okay, because I think the bits I relived are the bits that don’t come back. Okay, gotcha. So, so, uh, there’s, um, but obviously I have written about those bits in the book, um, but, um, and their effect on me. So, um, you guys did good. Thanks, man.

2:01:35 You know, it’s a fine line, you know. I, I want to you know, find the details, but I don’t want to, I don’t want to push for pushing’s sake, like, you know, like you said, that footage being played over on the radio, I think that’s pushing a bit too far. So that was an interesting experience. At least it brought, at least it brought it home a lot to the listeners, which I’m, I’m guessing it’s where they did it. You know, I don’t think, I don’t think they did that to freak me out.

2:01:58 I don’t think so. Yeah, no, fair enough. I just, you don’t want to interrupt too much. I just, I was absorbed by your story. I find the best shows we have here is when I just shut the f*** up and listen.

2:02:08 So I’ve done a lot of that today. So, um, that’s awesome. Matt, thank you for being here. Thank you. I know it can be difficult, because I yap a lot, uh, but thanks for being here, and you have a unique perspective, that’s why I wanted you here, because you know, we all, you always tell me about all this military stuff all the time, so I was glad for you just to see this, and, um, yeah, tweet those quotes out, um, we’ll send those books.

2:02:29 Um, you guys know how to find us on Facebook, Twitter, all that stuff. Um, Jake, please stay in touch with us. Wish you all the best with this book. Um, I, I really like it, and I see a lot of nonsense. So, okay, thank you very much.

2:02:41 Thanks for coming on the show. You guys all right? Until then, guys, it’s about the journey. For the journey. All right, peace.

2:02:54 Nothing sadder than seeing that great fight. They just should have, that one or two fights too many, you know, and, and ruin the legacy. I mean, we’ve talked about, like, Sakuraba and people like that before, and it’s just, it’s just a sad thing to see. So maybe, maybe it’s great that now we’re going to remember Kenny Foran as being a great contender, and then