Haley Hill - London Matchmaker

Full transcript: Haley Hill on London Real

6:52 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. We are sponsored today by Bulletproof Coffee, which is the official drink of co.uk. My co-host today is Colin Pile, entrepreneur who comes to London via Toronto. Then you went to China and India.

7:32 You had some epic motorcycle rides. We can check you on Travel Channel, right? Is it still playing, the China ones? On Travel Channel, and we’re just negotiating the India ride to be played on Travel Channel. Cool, I really want to see the India ride.

7:44 Yeah, it’s looking pretty neat. Is it? Yeah, sounds much more colorful, oh, than the China ride. No, it’s good. I watched your DVD on China.

7:51 It’s intense. And you also co-host Silicon Real with me, our new hit series. I love saying that. We just got picked up for a second season by ourselves. It highlights the technology scene here in London.

8:02 It’s for the people of basically the startup scene here, and it’s lots of fun. We meet like crazy people every week, venture capitalist people with ideas, young people, older people, and it’s just like a lot of fun, and they’re turning longer and longer now. They’re turning into like London Real episodes. Trim that back. Yeah, it’s kind of dangerous.

8:20 So definitely check that out. Thanks for doing double duty this week on both shows. Our guest today is Ms. Haley Hill, who in 2005 set up a personal dating service, which grew to be the biggest matchmaking agency in the UK. It did. I have no idea how that happened.

8:36 I want to hear all about this. You then sold it, and you have written a novel called It’s Got to Be Perfect, The Memoirs of a Modern-Day Matchmaker. Haley knows why 85% of relationships fail. I want to get the secrets and She’s been a co-host of London Real before. She was here for our Chance UK episode about mentoring kids.

8:54 I think it’s called Mentoring Masters, but today you are in the hot seat. I’m in the hot seat. Welcome back to London Real. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

9:01 I’m so glad you’re here. You know, we’ve had this book for a couple months cuz you’ve been writing your book. I have. I have been writing my book forever. I can’t remember a time I wasn’t writing.

9:12 Yeah, but you’ve stuck with it. You know, I have stuck with it That’s one thing I can say. You know, a lot of people haven’t done that. And you know, it’s interesting because you know, we have a big male audience here, and I was thinking about you today on the show. A long time ago, about a year and a half ago, we had a guy on the show who was a pickup artist.

9:29 You know, he taught to go and meet. He came on the and my former co-host Nick, we went out to Oxford Street and he taught us day game. I watched that as well. You watched that as well. And I didn’t, I didn’t see this.

9:42 I got so we went out and stopped random girls on the street, and let’s be honest, tried to pick them up with the camera. Yeah, we were filming a bit, but you know, they didn’t see the camera. We weren’t really, I mean we weren’t miking ourselves, but he was just trying to show us a few pointers. He came back to the studio and broke down his version of basically male-female relationships, how he saw them, and it was one of our most controversial episodes. It went to 10,000 views faster than any other show, and we had tons of comments.

10:10 A lot of people angry, a lot of people, mad, but it was a lot of men who commented, which I thought was really strange and a lot of men for what he said, or against. A lot of men were like, no, it’s not like that. I can’t believe you say that. And women were chiming in too, but I always wanted kind of a female counterpoint to that episode, and I don’t know if this is going to be it, but you know, you you have a really unique perspective. I’ve known you for a couple years now, and I remember you told me that when you ran your agency, most of your job was managing expectations.

10:40 It was absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, going back to what you were saying about the comments on the previous episode. I think it’s very, it’s very difficult to say the way men think or the way women think. I think it’s a generalization. Yeah, it’s a complete generalization, and a man can say this is the way men think because this is the way I think, and I’m a man, therefore I can speak on behalf of the rest of the male population, where they can’t.

11:00 They can speak only on behalf of themselves, and it’s the same. Me being a woman, I’m going to give a my perspective. I can’t give a woman’s perspective. Every woman on the planet. There be some women who don’t agree with me or don’t feel the same way I do.

11:10 However, I can give a perspective of all the single people I’ve met, and I’ve met thousands of them, and I personally interviewed thousands of single women and single men. So I can just give my sort of interpretation of what they said. Okay, well, I want to hear about that. First of all, how did this start? I mean, you had a regular day job, you were, you know, professional.

11:29 And yeah, so what, how did you go from that to being an entrepreneur and then into dating? Yeah, I was quite naive, really. I, the best business people in completely naive. You can’t be afraid of what you don’t know, right? Absolutely.

11:44 So I was a pharmacist, and I’d done a degree in pharmacy, and pretty much any job you can do having done a degree in pharmacy is to be a pharmacist, which was great, but I didn’t really think that through. I just thought, that’s a good degree today, and then I ended up in a job that I wasn’t really enjoying. I did every, I moved around. I did retail pharmacy, hospital far pharmacy, but did writing and editing a pharmaceutical journal and management for the NHS, and I was, that’s it, I need to get out of pharmacy.

12:06 It’s not for me. And at the same time I was single, and I felt a need for a service like the one I created, and I think that’s what a lot of people doing this set up businesses. The need is there, is personal need first, and then they just sort of assume that everyone else must. A lot of other people must have that need. If they have that need, and that’s where my naivety came in.

12:24 But you said you had that need because dating wasn’t going well. Is dating ever going as well as people wanted? No, yeah. I think, well, again, again it’s really hard to put yourself back in the position, how back in time, how I felt then. But as I remember I think I was, I believed I hadn’t met the right man.

12:41 That’s the only reason I didn’t have this perfect relationship, because I hadn’t yet met my soulmate, and the way I could meet my soulmate would be not setting up a dating agency, but having a dating service where I would be able to meet men of the type that I was looking for at the time. Okay, so you had multiple motives. You wanted to set up a business and meet a man well, you want, you know, yeah, setting up a business allows you to cherry-pick the best one.

13:05 No, that wasn’t the reason the reasons. I had that need, and I wanted to use a service like that, so I thought, well, if I got that, I’m going to set up an agency, and that’s what I did, and I didn’t think any more about it than that. I just thought, that’s what I’m going to do, and I quit my job, and I didn’t I remember sitting in my flat Googling how to set up a business. I hadn’t read any books. I hadn’t done any research whatsoever.

13:28 I just do this. That’s the best entrepreneur. So how did it go at first? Did you hit barriers or was it just like immediate success? Well, not immediate, but yeah, I mean, it went much, I was lucky.

13:39 It went much better than it could have done. I went, I got some business cards printed up, and I decided that I was going to head hunt my first member. So I was quite proactive. I didn’t have any money. I didn’t have any investment.

13:49 I didn’t have any savings. I just, so I couldn’t spend any, waste any money on advertising, so that was probably a blessing in disguise. So I had business cards printed up, and I just went to all the bars, clubs in London and just asked people if they were single. Wow, that is like grassroots. And then, so what would happen then?

14:05 So some people thought I was a bit weird. They would take your card, they take my card, and then look at it and then, and then some of them would email me, and actually the conversion rate was quite, was quite high surprisingly high. Would you approach men and women? Absolutely. Wow, yeah, and did you have a, did you envision like a certain type of dating service?

14:25 Did you want to have a premium service? Or, I think you mentioned in one of your blogs you wanted someone who screened the candidates, so you didn’t meet creepy people or people lying about their pictures or their relationship status. Exactly, cuz I tried online dating. I was back in 2005, so I was an early adopter, so it wasn’t as mainstream as it is now, and I therefore, I didn’t, I didn’t think for a second that people might lie on their profile. Well, we all know now people lie on the dating profiles, but I didn’t think then that people would, so I was going to go meet a 6’2 entrepreneur.

14:54 I was expecting to meet a 6’2 entrepreneur, and I wasn’t, obviously, met with the person that was on the profile. Someone completely different, so that’s why I quite like the idea of somebody screening them, somebody independent. So if you know, you know who you’re going to meet, then you know that if they say that V get as humor, then that person’s met them and thinks that they’re quite funny. Or, okay, so you screened everyone. Screened everyone.

15:14 Well, most people, as you can, what they told you they would be when you met them. What, when when I was setting up my agency. Yeah, I mean, like, beforehand, did they say I’m this person? Or, yeah, I mean oh God, we can go deeper into that later on, but I think sort of visually you can verify some criteria, and then you listen to what people say, and what people tell you, but then that, that’s when I started learning over years of being a matchmaker, that people tell you what they, not what they think you want to hear.

15:42 They describe themselves in a way they would like to be rather than the way they actually are. Okay, and I did that myself, and what was the, like, kind of the pinnacle of your business as far as when it kind of peaked, and when did you realize you wanted to sell it? Cuz that’s a big move. A lot of entrepreneurs don’t sell their baby. They don’t know what they’re going.

16:00 I know. Well, it was, it was, yeah, I, I do miss it, but it was absolutely the right time to sell. I, so I’ve grown it in London, then I franchised, so I just, I piloted a franchise in Manchester, and then we had, I think, three franchise sales that were going to go through in other cities in the UK, and I just thought, well, the year growth and growth year on year, it’s a good time to sell, and I was pregnant with twins. Good time, so I thought, yeah, yeah, I’m not sure how well I could do it, multitasking that one.

16:28 And also I think personally as well, I, because I set it up being, being like one of my clients with those, with the same needs as them. Then by the time I was sort of married and pregnant, it wasn’t, I didn’t have the same needs. I just sort of lost touch with the single scene a little bit, I think, because we used to do lots of events. We, tons of parties and holidays and things like that, and and being able to really relate to the client in the first stages, then before I sort of, I suppose, I lost touch with it.

16:56 And okay that make, I think a lot of entrepreneurs have that. They started, and you’re excited for the first few years, and then you know, you’re kind of faking it a little bit when you come to work, still excited about that, some idea. So did you arrange people that got married? Did you see them have kids? Did you see anyone kill their partner?

17:11 No, okay I just wanted, like, what were the extremes? No, there were a few that, no. Oh, no, yeah, are you liable? Training orders. I, I don’t.

17:18 Am I? I know. I don’t know, maybe we should talk about that. Okay, think about the, hey St. Did you have a high success rate? Is that something you judge yourself?

17:26 I mean success rate. This is what a lot of people used to ask when they joined as well, and it’s really hard because I, you know, I like statistics, but I found that really hard. What is, if you can, if you can double somebody’s chances of finding somebody, but if somebody’s got a 1% chance of finding somebody that year, if you double it to 2%, you’ve still got 98% customer dissatisfaction for that sort of that, that group of people. So, but then the success rate depended on the person.

17:53 If you had somebody who was very self-aware and reasonably eligible in sort of the conventional sense, then they, they would be matched up straight away. If you, they were matched with somebody similar. Okay, very quickly, what was your typical female client, and also like what was your most difficult female client? I remember you telling me some stories that, again, you had to manage their expectations, I guess, for men and women, especially maybe in professionals, because they’ve had a lot of success in their life.

18:19 They’ve got the car, the flat, the job, and now they want the perfect guy, the perfect girl, and they don’t exist. The hardest thing is, I mean you can. The thing is, you can understand why people want these things, and it, and when you’re trying to deliver a service, it’s like you want to say to people, I don’t make the rules. I’m really sorry that this, it should be the case. It should be that women should be able to focus on their careers, get to 35, and then want to settle down and find a man who’s 35, same age as them, give up, take a couple of years, and equally successful if not more than them.

18:49 That should be the case, that should be right, but it’s not. Who, we can, should we can, should, the women? I say, you think, why shouldn’t I, but that’s not the case. So then there was a lot of angry women, and I understand that, and, and yeah, so women around 35 who wanted to meet a 35-year-old man, and it’s unfair. It’s unfair that the 35-year-old man can then date a 27-year-old girl.

19:13 It’s, it’s not fair okay, so they, but it’s, it’s, it’s way it is, and what I couldn’t do anything about it. So that’s when the sort of, the customer satisfaction was became a bit challenging, but that in the underlying sort of thing you’re saying there’s a 27-year-old girl is better than a 35-year-old? No, not at all. No, I know, but so, so then what’s wrong with a 35? You’re a man, you should be able to answer that one.

19:36 No, I know. I don’t. I disagree. I don’t think you know a 35-year-old girl who’s lived, and who has experiences, and you know, conversation, and all that sort of stuff is great. I think so.

19:45 Yeah, I think everything being equal, I think that, make that very clear. Everything being equal, not yeah, but, but most men actually, they would be like, no, I’ll go think. I mean, I’m just second guessing them really here, but but you would know. You’ve seen this. Yeah, I would say it’s the pressure, for if a man wants to date a woman, and he’s thinking of, wants to get married and have a family, he doesn’t make that decision very quickly.

20:09 He doesn’t want to make that decision. Think, oh God, f***, she’s 35, got to really start thinking about. Quickly, I want to get to know a girl and have fun, and I’m in no hurry, and I don’t want that pressure. So it’s nothing that the woman was doing wrong. It was just, I think that the man felt a bit of extra pressure you said on your, on your website, 28 is the most eligible age for women.

20:28 By 35, she’ll have only a 30% chance of marriage. I know. Tell us what that means. A 30% chance of marriage. She’s run the num, thousands.

20:38 Yeah, so like, you know, you’ve seen the world, and I’ve read a lot about your, your, your articles, but can you kind of explain what you saw? I mean, you, one thing you said, like, you’re 28, you’re a female, you’ve been there before you’re going out, you’re choosing not that guy, not the scrawny guy, in it, not that guy, and then you know you wake up and you’re 34, 35, and you’re like, okay, now I want to start a family, and then the guy is now no longer interested in you. He’s interested in you 5 years ago.

21:02 Yes, it was a big power shift. Can you explain that shift to people like Colin who won’t admit. Yeah So I’ve been married for quite some time. My high school yeah, so I’ve been off the market. I’ve been off the market for a long time, so yeah, I mean, when women are young, we have all the power.

21:20 I know this is quite a controversial thing to say, but I think young, young man versus young woman. 18-year-old girl and 18-year-old boy. 18-year-old boy is full of hormones, what, have sex? An 18-year-old girl is, in, is desirable by, by, by most, from, for most men, I think generally, and then she has to sort of, she’s being chased and being pursued, and, and then she gets older, and then she gets more intelligent, more educated, she becomes more attractive and more, more appealing, and on and every level, then physically as well, and then and the men start coming into their own when they get older as well.

21:54 They sort of fill out a little bit more mentally, fill out, the success, the more success, more, more, more, more interesting to speak to, more, more intelligent, more eligible I suppose, again, this is in a general conventional sense. Is extreme, is opposites all the time, but yeah, so when, so when the women start having the social pressure, it is a social pressure, I think, I don’t think is an individual decision, but I think it’s a social pressure for women to settle down and have children. they start thinking about it, putting pressure on themselves and putting pressure on their relationships, whether they know they’re doing it or not.

22:27 I think they definitely do it, and then I don’t know whether that sort of keenness comes across, or and also the men then know that they’re more appealing to the younger women as well, then they’ve got a bit more power than they had before, so they’re, they’re no longer, yeah, they’re in, the men are in demand rather than the women. This is sort of peer, right? So can, can you, I mean, so do you try, like, in your book, for example, do you try to give advice to the 30-year-old woman, or, and to say, now is the time to, you know, pursue your options and, you know, make the decision now, or can a 30-year-old woman get advice from anyone older, or is it a phase you have to pass through?

23:07 Yeah, I think so. I think the best thing to do is just like try, and as much as you can, I think it’s very difficult, but try and ignore that social pressure, because I think if you can do that, then part of the problem’s gone. Because I don’t, I don’t necessarily think it’s that the woman is 35. I think it’s, it’s that pressure is making her more, concerned about how she, whether she should be married, her friends getting married, and it comes across, and I think that sometimes puts men off.

23:35 Okay, so is the pressure not sort of derived for him just from, just biology? It could right. So like, I want to have kids, I’m 35, like, you know, get. I think it could be, but I think if you look at when a woman’s most fertile, she does, she, her drive should then be at the highest, shouldn’t it? And women are most fertile when they’re much younger.

23:54 So I, I could see, sort of see that. I think it’s much more of a, Society pressure than it is an instinctive thrive. I would say, were you constantly managing expectations when you were matchmaking? Were you constantly, like, trying to talk these women into meeting these men, and vice versa, because their expectations were here and the reality was here? I mean, what was the hardest part of your job?

24:13 But then who wants to settle? Do you want to tell someone to settle? The whole point is they’re there. I mean, I think it’s so difficult telling someone it’s not my place to tell someone they should settle. Why should they?

24:23 Why should they, you know, settle someone that they don’t feel completely, fully, you know, in a romantic love for? They should they talk themselves into a relationship? This is this is a challenge I had, because I see on paper the problems, but then you can’t tell somebody to settle. Okay, but you were the most successful matchmaking agency, so you must have done something right. Well, what I used to do is, what I found the best thing to do was, why?

24:47 Why do we want all these things? Let’s think about why we all want relationships, because a lot of the time I don’t think we re-think why this is a good question. So why do we want this person, this ideal perfect man, or this ideal perfect woman, and why want this perfect relationship? To show after your friends and parents. Yeah, what’s the real reason?

25:04 And tell us, what is? Yeah, and also about, you know, why, like, why do some people want to be rich? Many people think, well, I want to be rich. Why? Because it’s going to make me happy?

25:13 Is it? So why do I want a, the 6’2 human rights lawyer with the six-pack? Why, why really think about it. What am I going to do with that guy? You know, he’s going to be working out every weekend.

25:22 I don’t want to work out every weekend. Why really? Why do you want this person? And so what’s the answer to that? Is to find out what you want more about yourself.

25:31 This is what I’m saying about being self-aware. Find out what, what it is. If you’re in a place in your life, you understand what really makes you happy and who you really are, and you’re not just trying to live somebody else’s life and live this life that is the glossy brochure of happy ever after. I need to, and I, this is the lifestyle I’m supposed to be living with this perfect partner. This is how I’m supposed to look.

25:49 This is the place I’m supposed to go. This is what I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to talk, and this is the person that I should share this sort of, you know, glossy brochure happy ever after with, if that. People actually stop and think, well, what actually makes me happy? What do I enjoy doing?

26:03 It was like my, my, my first dating profile when I started online dating. I wrote that I enjoyed jazz music, because I thought that sounded cool, right? I don’t know, I like jazz music. Okay, so you were trying to be appealing? Yeah, exactly.

26:15 I was trying to be somebody that I thought I should be, rather than who I actually was. And now I’m older, I’ve learned that I, I want to be out walking my dog and my, my, you know, Welly boots in the rain. I love that. I love that. I would live in the country with, with 20 dogs.

26:30 At the time, when I was looking for a relationship, I thought I wanted to live in a penthouse flat overlooking the Thames. So did you conclude a lot of times people weren’t looking for that perfect mate, but they were actually looking for their own happiness, and they thought it would come in the, the parbaton, the new house or the new boyfriend? Is that just a manifestation of their happy lifestyle? This dating’s aspirational, when, and I don’t think dating should be aspirational, but it seems to have become aspirational.

26:57 Maybe that’s like a London thing, maybe that’s an urban, big city so I think you’re absolutely right. I think so. Definitely, there’s huge cultural variations, and I’m speaking purely from London and the other city, other cities in the UK, and, but also in London, it’s very international. I’d probably say 20% of our members were from the UK, so we had a lot of different nationalities. I’m going to guess what people wanted.

27:19 So the guy comes in. What does he want? He wants a girl that will probably impress his friends and his parents, that he’ll really like and get along with, but’s, you know, stunning, and all these other things, and wants to do the things he wants to do. I’m guessing, and then the woman wants the man that she can tell her friends about, who’s the human rights lawyer, who’s 6’2 with a six-pack, and he can’t wait to have kids, and he wants me to do whatever I want to do.

27:45 And but a lot of it, social, sports me, but a lot of it is social and peer pressure. It is, it is, and, and it’s also, it’s yeah. I think also we’re very, we’re conditioned on how this relationship should be, and I don’t, and our natural state is at odds with the sort of social expectations of relationships we expect. So as a woman speaking from a female’s perspective, obviously not all women think this way, but a lot of them do. The ideal scenario is this perfect guy, and he will behave perfectly the entire time he’s with us.

28:21 He won’t ever look at another girl. Not at all, but he will be, you know, obsessively attractive to us, which is why I think was so so much of a fancy for so many women, because this man wanted to possess this woman. He loved her, and he was so attracted to her and only her. This is how women would like. A lot of women would like it.

28:39 It’s an ideal scenario. Okay, I didn’t read the whole book, so yeah, well, yeah. I didn’t know he was that dedicated, but I’m waiting for the, it’s coming. Michael Fassbender um, so that’s important to a woman is fidelity, and, and that’s like, but it’s almost like a contrasting thing, cuz if he’s this amazing, a desirable man, then he will be desired by others. Yeah, and it’s not only that.

29:02 I mean, it’s not only sort of the, the fidelity thing. It’s that just behaving perfectly all times that you would say understands woman’s emotions, and, and sort of how is, yeah, I mean, is everything that she needs fulfills her okay, and when, when most of the time we can’t fulfill ourselves, so how can we expect somebody to fulfill us? And I think that’s where the disappointment comes, and this is where the frustration comes, because we date men who are human, and, and, and they don’t live up to the expectations, and, and a lot of women are very disappointed, and it is it is a bit of a letdown, because you sort of sold this full stream of how it should be by pop culture entertainment.

29:42 Don’t know. Yeah, it must be. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s all very subtle, and very subtle, like branding kind of things that you grow up with, whether it’s the Prince Charming or, or the princess. That’s the same kind of thing. Um, I had a really, um, I had a four-year relationship when I was in New York, and, um, it, it got all messed up at the end, and she, she left me, and, um, I realized at the end of the day that I didn’t actually love myself at that time, and it’s impossible for someone to love you when you don’t love yourself.

30:06 And just to be very candid here, and, it’s, it’s hard to be happy when you’re not happy with yourself, you know. And I think ultimately, a lot of these pursuits we have, whether it’s to be rich or to have the perfect husband or to have the porish, is, you know, I, we’re trying to project our happiness outward when a lot of what we talk about in London Real is sorting out your inward and your consciousness, and all that stuff. But it’s weird to hear you say that, that you’ve witnessed this kind of firsthand.

30:32 Yeah, you know, and it’s, and what do you say to, I mean, what can you say to people? Just try and help them think about why they wanted things. We used to use NLP quite a lot, which was helpful, just to get to the bottom of why people wanted it. Why was it important to them? Should have gone straight to the psychedelics you know, cut through the like, you know, being aspirational.

30:51 It’s always you have a goal somewhere that you have to go towards. So I think, you know, a lot of people, it’s always, I want to be richer, I want to nicer car, and it’s just because, yeah, they can’t necessarily deal with what they actually want, what will actually make them happy, and chasing something, always chasing something, makes a lot of people happy, and then they get there, and it’s just like s***. Then they find something else, right? Where is this happiness?

31:13 And the happiness isn’t. I don’t. I don’t, this is my personal opinion. I don’t think happiness is something you can get. It’s not something you can get, like a perfect relationship is something you could attain and keep hold of.

31:21 I think that’s why people worry in relationships, cuz they cry, they get this good thing and they want to keep hold of it. They want to control it, and you can’t, because happiness comes and goes. Like relationship is a dynamic. You as a person are changing always, and your partner’s always changing, and the environment you’re in is always changing. It’s not something you can get and keep.

31:38 I think it causes a lot of problems in relationships, where people try, and they’ve got something good, and they want to keep it, and they’re terrified of losing it, and it’s h is something you can’t control. You’ve just got to. It’s a leap of faith. Is monogamy the way I mean, you were on the front lines, and you’re in a relationship too, obviously. You’re married, two children.

31:54 I mean, you know, you got to see it all happen in real time, right, in front of your face. Is there something inherently flawed with monogamy, or should it be the way to work? Oh, mon. What type of monogamy? Social monogamy, sexual monogamy, genetic monogamy, serial monogamy.

32:10 I mean, there’s like, what? Yeah. Monogamy. I suppose we tend to think of a sexual monogamy, and what and what is that? So not having sexual intercourse with somebody else, or what about sexual thoughts?

32:22 Where’s the line drawn? Where do you draw the line? Some, for some people, it’s unacceptable for the partner to imagine having sex with somebody else, and for some people, it’s acceptable for them to have sex with somebody else. So what I think, it’s your own personal boundary, but you’re dodging my question. Am I?

32:39 I don’t know. So you were saying a lot of types of monogamy to each his own when it comes to that. I well, I think any relationship, you just got to find out works for you. I think, I think it’s very hurtful. I think the sexual jealousy is as strong a drive as, I think, people have extramarital sex, even more so.

32:58 So sometimes, so I think, I think naturally, we, particularly men, in studies show are more driven to want to have sex with lots of women, and being in love with somebody or in a relationship with somebody doesn’t stop that, and it, but they do have the ability to, to suppress it. And I say, I think surveys they’ve done, although they’re not that particularly accurate, about 20% of men admit to being unfaithful in marriage, so there’s not that many, considering. I always hear that, like, men are more sexual, and then people say no, women are more sexual, and then everyone’s always arguing back and forth.

33:29 Think about it more. They think about it more. I mean, the test, the testosterone, testosterone is the main drive of sex drive, the sex drive hormone, and it’s much higher in men generally than women, but there is variations. Okay, that’s, it’s all gets crazy, but it’s there. So there’s so much.

33:46 It’s just, you, I don’t think you can simplify. I don’t think you, I think monogamy works well in our society. I think it is a good thing, and, but I do think there’s a lot of natural drive there that are at odds with how our social structure is, and I think that that causes a few, a few issues in relationships. Would you ever go back to doing a dating agency, or are you just done with that? Oh yeah.

34:13 I miss it. I miss it, but I don’t think, must be exciting, right? It is, it’s really exciting. It’s like it’s really nice to meet lots of different people, and to ask them how they feel, and find out about them, and I’m going to love that. I’m a nosy person, so I like asking questions, gossipy things.

34:30 Why did your last relationship end? How do you feel about that? I love all that. I mean, that’s the perfect job for me. I try never set up friends with other friends, cuz it’s just like, it seems like a train wreck about to happen, because then it’s like, you know, she’s going to ask her friend how it’s going, you’re going to ask, and it’s like you’re up in their business, and it’s just like, you know what, just stay away, cuz it’s all going to come to a wreck.

34:50 Maybe, yeah, I think very not too many positive things could happen from setting up two good friends, but if it happens, how not? It’s a lovely feeling. It’s really lovely. You know, you do get an update on Facebook, baby’s been born, and yeah, it’s really nice. It’s really, really nice.

35:05 It’s interesting when you talk about, like, what makes people happy, cuz like one of the things I used to do in the city when I worked there as a broker is, I get to know these clients over years and years and years, and then I would be out to dinner with them, and I could, I could sit him and look at him across the table, and I’d be like, why are you doing this? You know, why do you come in every day? Why do you, you know, bust your ass at work? And they could easily say, yeah, just, it’s the money, I want more money.

35:24 And then, like, at the end of the meal, I could be like, wow, why you really doing it? And, like, sooner or later we would dig down and find out it was to get their dad to finally respect them, or it would be to get their peers from high school, who always used to beat him up, to finally give him some cred, or in their own mind they could be like, look what I did, I now own a house or something, but it was ultimately all about social relations. Was the reason they wanted that money, you know?

35:49 And I wonder if the same is, isn’t about relationships? Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, we all want, we, we all want sort of intimacy, and we want somebody to love us, and somebody to love. I think that’s never going to change. It’s even trickier with relationships, man. So it is, and the more hurt we get, the more defenses we put up, and it’s, it’s, it’s complicated.

36:15 I mean, by the time if you’re trying to match somebody who’s been divorced and, you know, had quite, quite a few relationships and been hurt, it’s really difficult to help them get over that, and then not be, not be bitter or not bring baggage into new relationships, and try and see that person as somebody new, and not, you know, you must be good at giving advice to friends? Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. I like to think maybe so. How did the book come about?

36:43 I mean, you’re not a writer by trade, and, I mean, this is quite an endeavor. A lot of people talk about writing a book. Yes, that someone says that everyone has a book in them, but some people, it should stay there. I’m not saying this about your book. I know you’ve been working on it hard, and it’s hard to stay motivated every day to do it.

37:02 It’s, um, it’s not fictionalized, but it’s told from the point of view of not you, of a character. It’s fictionalized. I fictionalized it in the end. Tell us about the why you did the book, and why tell it that way? Well, as soon as I sold, as soon as I sold the agency, I, I just felt like I had, I hadn’t let it go, and I wanted, I had so much to tell, and I didn’t want it to leave my, my mind, not documented.

37:27 I’d, I’ve met so many interesting people. I’d heard so many different perspectives. I’d watched relationships grow, relationships fail, and I had so much I wanted to put down on paper. I didn’t know how I was going to do it. I don’t really want to write a self-help book.

37:40 I don’t really like that sort of style writing, and, and I thought I just going to write, and I just wrote, and it just turned out being quite sort of humorous and quite, lots of dialogue, lots of drama, and so I thought, in writing, they say you should show and not tell, and I thought if I can show how, show modern day dating rather than telling people how it is and how it should be, just to just show and demonstrate it. I think it’d be much more effective. I think people would, it would, it would sort of grip people more.

38:08 So, so I wrote, I wrote 10 drafts. Wow, and then I, and I rewrote quite a lot of it again, and I rewrote the first two chapters, and then I rewrote the final chapter. What was your initial feedback? And, um, how did you deal with it? Um, the initial feedback about was quite good, actually.

38:23 I was surprised. I sent it off. I thought I’d do the traditional route of publishing. I sent it off to agent. I didn’t do the, you know, printing out double-spacing, and, you know, I didn’t do any of that.

38:31 I just spammed them and told, asked them if they wanted to read it, and they said yes. So, okay, that’s good. Yeah, I sent it in and then, uh, I, uh, some agents that were really interested, and I picked one. Um, she’s really, really nice, and sent it through some publishers, and that took forever. It’s such a slow process, and when you’ve been write something you just you just want to get out there.

38:53 You don’t want to sit and wait. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a hideous experience waiting. I was really frustrated by the whole thing, and then they really liked it, but the big publishers have to then pitch it in house. So the commissioning editor doesn’t select it. They have to then pitch it in house with the whole team, and they decide, and for whatever reason they all said no.

39:11 There were different reasons. Some of them said the writing wasn’t strong enough. Some of them said that it’s too hard. This was non-fiction at this time, actually, it’s too hard to create bestsellers in women’s non-fiction. Commercial women’s non-fiction, blah blah blah, whatever the reason.

39:23 And then I thought I can rewrite it. This is the first draft that went out, and then I rewrote it 10 times after that. Wow, and this is a couple years now in the process. Yeah, it’s commitment. I know it’s got to be perfect.

39:36 So that’s the name of the book, and like, so walk, you know, if, if sell me the book. I mean, like, what am I going to get there? Am I going to get those juicy stories about what’s happening? Is it like this subtle kind of, like you said, kind of showing people? Yeah, it’s not, own, it’s quite like in your face, showing people.

39:50 Okay, so it’s one of the things, it’s easier to write than to actually say. So it’s about it’s, it’s, it’s, I put it in of chicklet category, but it’s not really chicklet, but that’s, I think, the audience that would enjoy it. Chicklet is a little bit more cupcake. And you, what is the definition of chicklet? As I don’t know.

40:08 I mean, chicks literature. Yeah, I think it does downplay a lot of very good female writers calling it chicklet, but is that there, like romance novels, pictur. I’ll give you, I’ll give you a sort of typical chicklet story. It’ll be a woman who decides to give up her career and go and set up a cupcake shop in the country, and then some dashingly good-looking but evil property developer comes in the country and wants a cupcake shop, but she hates him, and he hates her, and they fall in love, and then they set up a cupcake company together, and she’s probably got a shoe addiction or something at the end.

40:45 End. Everyone’s going to hate me now. No, that’s, that’s why it’s not that it’s not that. Okay, but it is that simple? No, it’s, it’s, it’s, I think the book covers issues that people don’t want to talk about, but we all can relate to, such as, such as, what?

41:00 How do women feel when they find their boyfriend’s been looking at porn? How do they feel? Jesus Nast. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, it just got cold here about minute 40 on YouTube. It depends what kind.

41:17 Actually, you should do movies, cuz Okay, so you addressed that. Yeah, because it’s a massive issue for women now. I mean, of it is. Yeah, and it’s we don’t like it. We, we might, we might pretend it’s okay, and we’re cool, and yeah, it’s fine.

41:31 We don’t like it. Why would we? Right? Why would we like the idea of a man looking at a woman who’s far more attractive, sexually attractive, than we are, rather than, you know, wanting to be with us? Why would we like that?

41:41 No, we don’t. Yeah, and you, on one of your blogs, you were like, yeah, what am I supposed to go along and say, yeah, that’s great, just like, I should go along to the strip club and we can get a couple’s dance while some 18-year-old Estonian with double D’s shakes around. Like, no, I don’t f***ing want to do that. That’s why you’re great. Writer, she lets it all out.

41:57 So you’re like, no, we don’t want to do that, not that we feel that we should say, especially these days, that’s the thing to do. And, Li, it’s not. I don’t like it. Yeah, stick to your guns, but do you think, like, society’s pushing more and more women to just sort of do what is on TV, or, you know, if it’s Miley Cyrus twerking, or whatever that is? Do you know what I mean?

42:20 Yeah, I mean, I think I think back to porn. I think porn’s a big, big issue in relationships, and I think for the younger gener, because I think for the older generation, they weren’t sort of forming their sexual identity with porn around. I think now the younger, younger, the boys and girls now are, and I think it hugely influences their interaction in a relationship. Crazy. I mean, like, they, you know, there’s been no studies, but I think they’ve talked about how, like, people mimic porn in the way they have sex, cuz it’s like that’s the way they’re doing it.

42:52 It’s subconscious, but just as damaging to men as it is to women. I think that’s what a lot of people forget. I think, oh, men are just enjoying themselves, and it’s subjugating women. It’s dehumanizing them, and it’s it’s damaging for them, but it’s also just as damaging for men, for the way that the industry leads them into, because they get desensitized from conventional porn, and then they go into sort of more violent porn, and it’s, it’s all very contrived, and quite scary and worrying, but it is very damaging to men, because they then no longer, sometimes, extreme cases, can’t relate to women.

43:23 Normally, normally. So this book isn’t just about dating, about women dealing with this in their relationship. Yeah, all the big issues in relationship, but in a funny way, in a funny, light-hearted way, but it’s not like some big feminist rant. Certainly not. What else?

43:35 What else is in there? What else is in there? Oh, we have to read it. Embarrassing incidents, you know, things, because people used to call me up after the date and tell me everything, and I was so surprised, because, especially being in England, you think people will be a little bit shy and a bit retiring, but they, because I was their matchmaker, for some reason they just let it all out. They would call me up off the date and tell me exactly what went on.

43:57 I mean, this is Monday morning. Why, I don’t want to hear this, and then too much info, way too much info. Okay, and going way too much. Yeah, interesting. See you.

44:09 Yeah, did you stop, keep going? Monday morning. Monday morning’s a bit much. did you have to worry about confidentiality, because you must have had some high-profile clients, wealthy or politics or that kind of thing? Did you change names?

44:25 Did you alter stories? Yeah, why? I fictionalized in the end, because I didn’t. First, I didn’t want my clients thinking that their, you know, private lives were going to be downloadable from Amazon. It’s not fair on them, and I just created characters that were a combination, blend of different people that I’d known, and sort of scenarios that were a combination, a blend of different scenarios, and the main character is not me either, but she’s a lot like you.

44:50 She’s a lot like me. Yeah, but she’s not me. Okay, so walk us through. There’s so many people that that email me all the time that have books, and they want to get published. They don’t know whether they should self-publish.

45:01 You know, you you’ve got a book that you’re releasing. You’ve got another one for the India ride. So like everyone is asking these questions, and you are now doing it. I mean, your order, you can pre-order it right now on Amazon, is that right? And it’s going to go for sale, uh, 24th of September, 24th of September, and you can get that, um, at amazon.uk or amazon.uk.

45:19 Okay, and worst case, you better write her a review, um, and go and check it out. But what’s, how did you publish? Did you need backing from a major agency? I mean, you researched the whole thing? Yeah, well, I just got fed up with waiting with the big publishing houses, and then there was going to be pitched to a second round of publishers, and I just thought, I’m just going to do this myself, and I’ve spoken to quite a few other authors.

45:39 I just reached out to people that had written books that I admired, respected, and asked them. People are really helpful if you ask them. You think, oh, why would they want to talk to me? But they, they’re really helpful, and, um, they, well, common consensus was just do it yourself, because if you’re a first-time author anyway, even if you get publishing contract, they don’t have much marketing budget to put behind you, so you can really much have to do your own marketing anyway.

46:05 So why not have total control, and you can pick what cover you have? Otherwise you can’t pick what book cover you have, or anything, and the editors might tell you to change this or change that, and you could lose the realness of the story. I think sometimes, because they might want to make it a little bit more commercial, because there’s some things in the book I think could potentially offend some people. That’s good. I think that’s a good thing.

46:25 So you, you are self-publishing, so you have someone that is going to help you publish, and yeah, sort of a halfway house. It’s a company called Troubador Publishing, and they will sort of make it. They, they arrange external copy edit, pre-read, and everything like that. So it’s publishing standard, so it’s, it’s good enough quality, and same with the printing as well. Okay.

46:43 Um, I don’t know if that’s the right thing to do. That’s what I decided to do. You know, it’s interesting, cuz like this is your first book, and like we had Howard Marks sitting there, and you, he’s had a whole story history. He’s uh, you know, was a crazy smuggler. He had a book called Mr Nice that I read when I first got to England in the late ’90s, and he’s writing fiction now, and he was telling me, he’s like, Brian, I’m writing three books.

47:06 He’s like, cuz I know the first one isn’t probably going to necessarily sell, but maybe the second and third is part of the trilogy, we’ll finally get it selling. And I mean, this is Howard Marks, the guy that does the one-man shows and all that stuff, and he’s telling me how hard it is to publish, how much of you is thinking, okay, this is the one to kind of get my name out there, but I’m thinking book 345 is where I should be thinking. Way, but I’m, he’s right.

47:28 He’s absolutely right, because everything I’ve read is that that’s the way to go, and even like free downloads as loss leaders to sell next, next in the trilogy. But I, I didn’t write it to become a bestseller. I wrote it because I had a story and I wanted to write it, and I don’t know if I have another one. I have, it’s all in that one, and I don’t, I don’t know. I didn’t, I didn’t write it to sell it quickly and easily.

47:52 I wrote it, and again, like, was setting up the business. I didn’t think it through. Had I thought it through, there would be a much better or more cost-effective way of spending my time for the last two years. But I think readers and listeners, and anybody who consumes a podcast or a documentary, they know, they know what’s real and what’s not real. Yeah, and I think this was just a part of, part one of your marketing strategy.

48:12 People would know, and if you held back and did like part one and two and three coming next, yeah. You know, no, it’s part one. Okay, there we go. Full stop. Full stop.

48:23 That’s cool. Well, I’m really curious how this goes, cuz you know, we have a lot of people like I said, I, that talk about writing books, but I’ve never seen the process, and then the launch date and, and all that stuff, and you’re very good at doing press. You’ve got people to write about you. Yes, yeah, I learned that when I was running the agency. I think we pretty much built it on PR.

48:40 We never did any advertising or anything, so word of mouth and PR was, was the main. And you’re not shy to talk real about PR, so let’s talk Grazia magazine. Oh yeah, we got to talk about. So, um, Haley was featured in Grazia magazine, which is a big magazine here in London, or in England, or UK. Yeah, it’s good.

48:58 It, who’s it for? Who’s it for? Uh, uh, professional women. Professional women, right? It’s got a big circulation, 25 to 35, I suppose.

49:04 Yeah, right. And to them, you talked about your agency in your book, and you came out of the closet, and I’m quoting you, you said, for 5 years I knocked back well over 12 bottles of wine in a week. It eased your nerves. You were in the business where you were meeting people having wine to kind of check them out. Um, he was like, it never affected my ability to do my job professionally, um, but the thought of slipping back to normality was unthinkable.

49:26 Yeah, what happened? What was that all about? Well, um, I did drink a lot. I didn’t drink 12 bottles a week, but that’s okay. Generous for you.

49:33 Yeah, there you go. That would have been quite impressive. But no, I could drink a lot. I mean, I probably could do a bottle a day, which is still, I think, functioning alcoholic categories. Um, but yeah, I mean, the nature of the job was it was in a private members club.

49:51 It had a bar, and I wanted to sit there with the clients and have a drink with them, probably because I was nervous to meet them, because I’d never interviewed somebody before. I mean, it’s quite a big responsibility. They’re expecting you to find their future partners, so I was probably a bit uncomfortable, bit nervous about my ability to be able to do that, and ask the right questions, and instill confidence in people that I was the right person to do it for them.

50:14 So I think that, and also, and then it just became habit almost. It was not, it was normal. Everyone was having business meetings in there, drinking. I mean, you got there, the barman came up, say what you want to drink. He wouldn’t say a cup of tea.

50:29 Hey, I mean, it’s, I mean, you know, you know, we’re both, we grew up in different countries, and so you, like, I don’t know what your feelings were when I got to London. It’s, it’s, when I was in the city, it was a normal thing to have wine at lunch. You know, you go to the pub after work. I mean, it’s a culture where living and drinking is almost, you know, woven together in a way. Part of it’s part of the glamorous.

50:48 It was, I mean, again, was quite a few years ago, very glamorous. You know, I’m a woman, I’m running my own business, and I’m independent, and I’m you know, I’m having a glass of, you know, white Rioja. I sort of know my grapes. Check me out. Right, all right.

51:03 It’s like an expression of your individuality. I think it’s like also so much to do with what you do for a living, right? Like coming from, I was in the finance world for quite some time, and it’s, you know, it’s common to sort of take off a good afternoon, and, and just knock back a lot of drinks, and that’s why I did every afternoon. That was my office. I work.

51:21 I did all the matchmaking. I go up early, have coffee, do all my matchmaking from home in my flat, and then I go in, I meet four people a day, right? On average, so I’d have four consultations. They could last one hour, probably one and a half hours. It’s four, maybe, if it’s three, it would just last longer, so the time period was still the same.

51:37 And then afterwards I go out head hunting. I had other consultants. I had a team of consultants that work with me, and they were all girls, and we just had a great time. We just get a big clip, chips, another bottle of wine, talk about our matches, and we were working, and then we go out head hunting in bars. You’re still drinking, so yeah, it’s just, it was a way of life.

51:55 It was, yeah, yeah. I, me, like you said, I mean, in finance, and probably in a lot of businesses. I know publishing and journalists do the same thing. I mean, like you know, as a broker at IAP, our job was basically a professional alcoholic. I mean, you’re supposed to be out four nights a week getting your clients jacked up.

52:13 If it’s only alcohol, then I guess you’re doing good, because like anything they want to do is basically what your job is, so like the lines get really blurred. Is it, is it. Now, is it possible to continue this? Do you think it’s possible to be functional and continue doing that? Could you have done that for 10 years?

52:29 No, I don’t think so. Soon or later I catch up to you. No, yeah. Absolutely. I think, I think, I mean, I could do it at the time, and it was fun.

52:37 I’m not going to lie. For quite a while, was there a point where you just like, this is getting out of control, or this is not what I want to do? Yeah, I think it naturally came to an end, which was quite lucky. Yeah, that is. Yeah, um, because I sort of settled down a bit more, and then I sold the business, and then stopped trying for children, and all these things start, you start thinking about what you’ve done to your body, because you get away with it when you’re younger.

53:00 You, there’s no visible signs of it. You’re young, you still look the same, you know, you don’t wake up looking super rough. You can bounce back from a hangover when you get old. When you start getting into your 30s, I’m 30, now 36 now, if I have a heavy night, I, it’s all over my face the next day. It’s frightening, so you can see, you can see the impact.

53:21 You can see the physical impact, and you can feel it more, and I think as well, when you start thinking about having children, you start thinking about being responsible for the health of some other being. And does that affect fertility? Does it really? Yes, really. Yeah, well, they don’t know what effects F okay, they don’t know really.

53:38 So, um, but yeah, it, you, we struggled a little bit. I think it’s probably a lot to do with it. So was I, I quit drinking obviously. I didn’t drink when I was pregnant at all, and I I was lucky because I’d always been concerned about getting pregnant when I was in my heavy drinking. No, oh God, when I get pregnant, I’m not going to be able to drink for 9 months.

53:55 Am I going to, am I going to manage that? How? Yeah, I always think that, like, a woman’s a drinker or a smoker, like, what do you do? just hold out? For me, I was lucky.

54:04 It might have been because it was twins, but I just had a complete aversion for alcohol. If James came near me smelling of alcohol, and it was lucky. I think it’s obviously a natural um, sort of protection, self-protection. So I think that I was lucky, and then afterwards, now I just drink a glass of wine, and I’m a little bit, I start becoming my mother. I start, I get a bit tiddly.

54:23 I get, Dr notice. I get a bit flushed here, and I start saying silly things, embarrassing myself, and I need know it’s time to go to bed. James is like, I think you, and what’s been the biggest adjustment for you? I mean, now you have, you have twin daughters. You know, you’re no longer the matchmaker extraordinaire.

54:43 You’re the mother now, and I mean, is it been like a big shift for you? It is, it’s a huge shift. You kind of, your blogs are, your blogs are great, by the way, and uh, what’s your website? Matchmaker Musings, www.matchmaker.com, and it’s kind like you’re you’re watching yourself get a little bit older, a mother, and all that, and you’re watching the way you behave differently. You had a great blog about Valentine’s Day, and like, yeah, how do it feel?

55:08 It’s hard. I think it’s hard being a woman getting older. It is hard. I think especially having children, the I love it. I absolutely love being a mother, but you do, having had a career before, and then not now, is it’s a bit of a blow to your self-confidence, your identity more than anything.

55:27 You, well, before I was an entrepreneur, young, independent woman, having a great time, loads of friends, and now I’m anyway, you know, I’m wrangling toddlers. You’re a writer? Yeah, I am, I suppose, but I’m not. I don’t really feel like I’m a writer until someone’s actually bought my book other than my mom. Okay.

55:44 Foria. No, I mean, yeah, I sold quite a few preview copies, which is good, but yeah, I I think that’s, I think that’s a struggle for women. I think it’s hard. It’s, it’s, it’s something you want to do and it is natural, sort of change in your life, but I think that I found that quite, quite hard, and also getting older. I don’t like getting older.

56:01 I want to, I want to look like I was 25 again forever. It’s interesting what you talk about with women. Like you said, you go from say 18 to, like, I mean, like you said, an 18-year-old boy is just an idiot, but an 18-year-old girl is in Playboy, and so it’s like this whole perceived value, and then as you wind around 30, you know, like, this perception, and then procreation, and then it all changes quickly, for it all changes. But I think it’s been. I mean, I think I care much less now.

56:26 I care I mean, when I was in my early 20s, I wouldn’t actually really want to go back there, because I really cared what people thought. I cared so much. I cared so much about how I looked. I cared so much about what I wore. I cared so much about what people thought of me, whereas now I don’t really care.

56:40 I’ll be, I’ll be really happy when I get to the stage when I don’t care at all, because I still care a little bit, but not anywhere near as much as I used to. Like, quite, it’s quite freeing. It’s quite liberating. It’s quite liberating to have no makeup on and your hair all greasy and tied up, and you’re wearing some big old puffer jacket, and you’ve got your muddy dog, and no one pays you the blindest bit of attention, and you’re just like, just a normal person, not like a sexual object, which you might be when you’re younger.

57:04 That’s quite, that’s quite. I like that. I like that. So I think I could get used to that. That makes sense.

57:10 I want to get your opinion about, like, clubs, cuz I’m always fascinated with people that go out to clubs, and like, I remember a friend of mine one time once said, like, for a girl, say 25, and a guy who’s 25, what’s a successful night for the guy? All going out, his guys, what does a guy want to do? He wants to get laid. That’s like the ultimate I won night, and they’re like, it’s like, well, what’s the girl’s ultimate I won night? And one time he said to me, you know what that is?

57:32 Is that she was the center of attention. That’s the ultimate I won night. Now, you might agree with, disagree, I want to get your opinion on this, but also I’ve noticed so many of my friends, now good-looking, successful people, going to online dating, and especially, you know, you know, you know, of course I’m being biased, attractive women, like, what are you doing going online? Look, you could have anyone you want, and like, that’s such a common misperception.

57:54 I think about women, but can you address both things, the club atmosphere, and then like, why is everyone going online these days? Oh, the club atmosphere. I say, am I incorrect in saying that those are the two goals of those two people? They’re just, I, yeah, I mean I can’t, I can’t speak for men going clubbing. What they’re looking for?

58:09 I would, I would question, though, if they were out on their own, none of their friends were there to witness, they still want it so much. Good question. So they want to be known as the guy that hooked up, right? Yeah, oh, he hooks up every night. Crazy, right?

58:26 And the girl, to be the same. I mean, it’s so sad, isn’t it? But that’s probably true. It probably is. It shouldn’t be true, but I think yeah, just being desired, it’s not, I’m say it’s not it’s nice, isn’t it?

58:38 We all think that’s nice. Would you like to go into a club and be of attention? I mean, I guess it’d be nice, but it wouldn’t be my end all, be nice. I mean, yeah, but maybe, yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever had that, and I don’t think I’ve certainly won’t have that at all now, but I think, yeah, imagine that would be, but then also, of the same, I don’t wouldn’t it? I think it would make girls feel very self-conscious.

58:58 I don’t think girls, I think, I don’t think as confident as they come across, even very attractive girls. I think they, I think even the most beautiful girls that I’ve met and interviewed don’t think that they are so. I don’t, I think a lot of, a lot of men particularly might think some really stunning women are a loaf, or up themselves, but they’re not at all. I mean, all of the women I’ve met, I met. We had models, and very, very attractive girls that would sign up looking for, to use a dating service, and they, they, I think the fact that they are noticed physically all the time makes them very aware of that and very concerned about that, self-conscious and a little bit insecure, because they think, what if I don’t look perfect today, or what if, you know, what if I get spots?

59:43 Am I not lovable anymore? So I think it’s quite, I think it’s quite damaging to think that. And what’s the misconception that, like, a model would ever go online to date? Like everyone thinks you get constantly bombarded with the greatest men in the world, but you’ve seen the reality, that’s not. No, I, you know, yeah, even your own story.

59:59 I mean, you just were, you meeting the kind of men that were like, no, this is not cool. Like, at the club, you’re not going to meet your husband at a club anyways? Or are you? Yeah, no, I don’t know. I don’t think so.

1:00:08 I think some people do, but I don’t think so. I think I think it’s, I think it’s really hard for men to check girls up, and I think it doesn’t happen that often. It certainly doesn’t happen very well. I don’t think anyone really knows how to do a control that in the club. Usually when you’re in a club, you’re a little bit, you know, beyond being able to courage.

1:00:27 Exactly. Club game is tough, but it happens. I mean, if you go to any nightclub, you know, people have successfully pair-bonded. Yeah, it does happen. I was listening to a podcast recently, was a guy named Eddie Bravo, who’s been a guest on here a couple times, and he’s a jiu-jitsu guy in LA, and he was saying, these days, in the last five years, women have mobile phones, and they have text game, so he’s like, back in the day, girls would go to the club without the mobile phone, and like, if they really wanted to meet someone, have to do it at the club, but nowadays, come 1:00 a.m., they’ve got options.

1:01:00 They’re like, texting, what are you doing? And there’s that guy that’s watching HBO, that’s like, yeah, I’m here, and like, now they have options. So it’s like, he’s like, nobody’s picking up into the clubs unless your game is airtight, otherwise there’s other options, and like you said, not many people are very good at chatting up in clubs, and when you know, when you have other options, then it’s not going to be what, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think it’s much easier.

1:01:22 I mean, who wants an audience? I mean, I do. I’ve always felt for men having to go, go chat-ups. I think it’s, I can’t think it’d be a pleasurable experience at all. I mean, I don’t know what you would think, but it’s tough, but it can be rewarding.

1:01:33 Yeah, with an audience in a club, unless you are, you know, a bit pissed and you’re not that bothered, but I think it’s, if you get rejected publicly, I mean, your mates are going to not live, ever, let you live it down, or that. Any feel, it’s what’s the simple piece of advice you would give to most men who are just dating in general? I mean, I hate to say it’s probably like be yourself or something, but what are like the two or three mistakes you see happen the most, cuz you’re in a rare place where you, like, saw the matches beforehand?

1:01:58 They went on the dates. You got the feedback. I mean, that’s a lot of information, so you could see what the biggest mistake men make is feeling they’ve got to sell themselves to the girl and talk about themselves, and you know, the PE up feathers, okay, or play games, okay, but what they should do is be interested in the girl. Back to the girl, wanted to be the center of attention. Okay, so they, better to be cool and not needy and not desperate, but just be interested, actually ask questions and be interested in her, because that was probably the biggest complaint I had from women, that he just talked about himself, or not, or was needy and desperate.

1:02:32 Yeah. Did you tell guys that before the date, like, don’t be needy, don’t be desperate? Yeah, would you give advice before if they asked for it? Right, yeah, only if they asked. Some people do ask, or did ask.

1:02:45 Yeah, you’re dealing with some professional men at the top of some of their careers. They probably don’t. They don’t think they need advice when it comes to, then again, they are meeting with you. Yeah, they’re meeting with you. They clearly know they need some kind of help.

1:02:56 Right, yeah. I think, I think the main thing is more sort of deeper issues. I think most people in their professional, and have got a good job, they’re quite socially adept. They don’t really need that sort of advice on how to interact with another human being. They’re only quite good at that.

1:03:12 It’s just more about figuring out what they’re looking for, and why they’re looking for those criteria, and maybe they could rethink it a little bit. I think that’s more of the help that I could give people. I find most men need advice, even guys I know that are at the top of their game in some areas, when they get into the women game, like they just start, just tripping over themselves. I’m like, you said what? Oh yeah, there’s a few.

1:03:34 Just like some basic stuff, like if you’re going to have a date, have a plan, and be like, meet me here, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do this. He’s like, no, no, I’m just saying, what do you want to do? I’m like, Jesus. Yeah, no, that’s that’s a really good one actually. I forgot about that one.

1:03:45 That one is brilliant. that is. If you want any more advice, I, yeah, that is really London, but then it’s, it’s I think it’s very difficult. I think there’s the, again, men don’t know what to do. We’re supposed to be living in equal society, yet women still would like men to take control.

1:04:02 They like that, but women have all the power, I don’t, up until certain age. Okay, it turns. Yeah, but they do. They want a man, like you said, just take control, have book something, organize something, you know, be a bit assertive in that way. Okay, not, not too B.

1:04:20 On the same note, what’s the biggest mistake you see women making, and what’s the advice you give to them, like before they had their dates? Women don’t make mistakes, though. They, that’f. Oh yeah, mistakes to women make. Oh, um, I, oh, I think there, the person they’re selecting.

1:04:44 This I think there’s a lot of women that have this interest in other people’s boyfriends, partners, or married men, or I, I don’t. I think there’s deep-rooted issues there. I think with not wanting to um, get too close to people, but there’s a lot of women that fall, feel like they’re, fall in love with somebody else’s partner. Really? Yes, that’s quite, quite a lot would happen.

1:05:08 Okay, and why is that? Just cuz they see all the great things and don’t have to deal with the everyday. Not a psychologist. Um, okay, I don’t know. Safe, I guess, so he’s not creepy.

1:05:17 You know, he’s never happened to me. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. I think probably stop them getting hurt, because they know he is never a real relationship. So yeah, maybe that has a lot to do with it.

1:05:28 I don’t know, but that’s, I would think, managing women’s expectations would be the hardest thing. I would guess that they’d be like, on paper, like you said, he’s the IT guy or whatever, and not the 6’2 human rights lawyer, and but then like, but you know, he’s, I hate to say this, he’s really a nice guy, you know, but he’s, can offer you a lot, but he’s not going to be the guy you brag about right away to your top five friends. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know.

1:05:50 With women, with it’s a bragging thing. I don’t know. It’s just a romantic sort of idea, it’s like a movie image running in the head, or the glossy brochure. I was saying it’s so like imprinted on the brains of women, and it’s the power of suggestion as well. The media is quite funny, because there was a time when, back to the human rights lawyer, women would come in, and they pretty much uniform wanted the same thing, and it was Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones’s Diary.

1:06:12 Okay, they wouldn’t describe him outright, but it would be, or human rights lawyer. Was that Hugh Grant, or was that the other guy? That was the, Colin Firth. Oh, Colin Firth, okay. Yeah, okay.

1:06:21 Yeah, and that was really interesting, and the same with men as well. The power of suggestion was quite, it’s quite funny. So, James, if my husband drives, we were driving in South Africa down a highway, and there was this sort of 20-foot steak picture of a steak, and like 30 seconds off, and driven past it, he said, a really fancy steak. I don’t know why. Like, yeah, yeah, we’re complicated like that.

1:06:43 You not see that, b. and that is so funny. But it is that, and me and the other consultants, the girls, used to laugh because the men would come in and have a consultation with the consultant, and they would describe the girl sitting opposite them, who’s taking doing the consultation. Oh, really? Yeah, that’s crazy.

1:07:01 It was hilarious. So one would be blonde, one, one of them was blonde, very sort of, yep. I like you. Yeah, I like blondes. I like curvy blondes.

1:07:09 The other one, the other one was a French girl, but dark, dark hair, dark skin. Yeah, I really like sort of, you know, I like foreign girls. I like dark hair, dark eyes, and this. It was ridiculous. We don’t even know what we want.

1:07:23 We just like, actually, or we don’t care. Maybe it’s just like, yeah, that’s the best way to be, really, not to have a specific type, to be open to that. It’s kind of scary that we, that subject to these powers of persuasion, or yeah, whatever is on our head at the same time. Do you get like certain actresses, or whoever was the flavor of the moment, too, like, yes. Okay, and yeah, sort of the shift from hair preference, color preference.

1:07:48 So when Cheryl Cole sort of came over and wanted a brunette, and there was a bomb movie, I can’t remember which one it was, it had had tons of like more beautiful brunettes in it, and then men wanted brunette, that was like 80% of men were asking for brunettes, and we just used to do this little informal sort of studies of the a lot of data. Right, it’s really fascinating. Yeah, to sort of look at the data and compare it to pop culture, but it’s like a fashion.

1:08:14 I mean, if you look at any of the old fashions in the 70s, people thought crushed velvet flares look great. I mean, we look at them now. I think they’re ridiculous, but at some point there was social conditioning to think they look great, and with anything it’s, if you given enough images, and suddenly your brain starts thinking that’s good, like, that’s nice, and that’s what happens when dating as well. I think definitely, and probably everything else, kind.

1:08:35 It’s really scary. Um, what can do in the next few weeks for you as far as like book launch? What will you be doing? What constitutes success in your mind? What’s the day after?

1:08:44 Like, I mean, like, you know, and how do you organize this? I mean, you’re promoting this yourself, you know, like, you know, what do you do? It’s, it’s not that organized. I’ve got a bit of a random spreadsheet going on. You have a spreadsheet?

1:08:57 I have a spreadsheet. Um, blogs. Lots of blogs. Um, so I’ve got quite a few blog reviewers, and got a bit of press coming out. You have a lot of people that follow your blog?

1:09:09 Yes, like 4,000 plus, or something. That’s real. Those are people that want to know what you, that you write every week? Yeah, yeah, I’ve got quite a big blog, which is good. The blogsphere is important, right?

1:09:19 Yes, okay. I’m told, yeah, I’m told we’ll find out. Yeah, we’ll find out. Oh yeah, and then, yeah, there’s lots of interviews, and, um, and events. I’m doing a launch party.

1:09:29 I’ve got a big launch party on the 24th, which is scary, and we’ve got some guest speakers talking around the topic of It’s Got to Be Perfect, so it’s, got an Oxford University professor coming to talk about, he’s been doing this amazing research into love drugs and synthesizing the hormones that cause us to fall in love. Wow, which is amazing. You really got to get this guy on. He’s unbelievable, and he’s, yeah, so they’re talking about, talking about that, and what causes us to think we found the one.

1:09:58 And then I’ve got a sex expert talking about perfect sex, and the sex we think we should be having versus the sex we’re really having. So that’s sort of, you know, idealism versus reality. So that’s happening at the launch party, and yeah, so that’s going to be good. We’ve got, we, we had to close the guest list. I sent the invitations out, and an hour later to close the guest list, which is great.

1:10:15 So we’ve got 100 people on the waiting list. So hopefully I can, I’ll do an online, I think I’ll do an online launch party as well, so people who can’t come can watch it and live stream it, and yeah, that’s fantastic. And so it’s ultimately, you want to drive people to Amazon? Is that where you want them to buy your book? Okay, Amazon algorithms are really important, apparently.

1:10:32 Okay, yeah, I’ve heard that they want to know how popular it is, the how the reviews are going, that kind of thing. Yeah, you just got to get visible on there. You got one shot at getting visible, and if you’re not, you’re just going to sort of, you know, fade into insignificance. If you get into the charts, you stay in the charts. People buy because it’s in the, you know, top 100.

1:10:50 They’ll buy it because it’s there rather than because they’ve heard about it. Right, so ideally lots of people go buy your book, the reviews, and get that critical mass going, more people can hear about it. Yeah, I think if people enjoy it, then it should do Okay, people know genuine. I think they do. I don’t think you can trick people into knowing something, as long as they read it.

1:11:06 Yeah, as long as they read it. It’s so hard to get people to read. You’ve got such short attention spans. It’s so hard to get people to read a whole book. I mean, it is, it’s a, it’s a commitment.

1:11:14 I mean, I’ve got tons of books that I want to read, and I just can’t get around to it, because there’s something else I need to do. But once they do read, they’re probably going to be a fan for a long time. Yeah, I hope so. I’ve got all the sort of pre-release reviews. People read it so far.

1:11:26 I love it. And yeah, so that’s really promising. I’m pleased about that, cuz you never know. It’s quite daunting putting everything, all your sort of personal thoughts and feelings, into something, and you hope people are going to like it, but I’m putting it out there for judgment, because I’m not a writer. It’s not, you know, a literary masterpiece, but it’s a fun story.

1:11:43 Yeah, I, I listen to audiobooks all the time. Are you going to release audio? Yes, I’m looking into that. I haven’t done that yet. Be it sounds like it’d be a good audio, like storytelling.

1:11:51 Yeah, I’d definitely like to do that. Yeah, do audio yourself. I hate when the authors don’t do it. Although I’ve told that certain authors are horrible. Apparently Stephen King can’t read an audiobook to save his life, but if it’s really you, I think it really brings some gen.

1:12:06 Yeah, I know. I’d love to do that. And you have a trailer coming out, like a movie trailer. Yeah, a book trailer. You have well, you have a whole series, your book.

1:12:13 Yeah. So you got like a minute trailer or something. Yeah, it’s good fun. I saw, I saw the first draft at the weekend, so that should be out, um, instead of end of this week. Wow, on YouTube.

1:12:22 That should be good fun. Okay, that’s really exciting. So all right. So the next couple months will be crazy, good, bad, and then you’re back to who you are, come December, and then you’re going to see what happens, ideally. Publishers see you, people see you, and they’re like, let’s talk more, or do you have a, do you have a next step?

1:12:37 I don’t. For the first time in my life, Brian, I don’t have a next step. March, like, yeah, that would be nice. No, I, I’ve lived my life with a 5-year plan constantly. I think I came out the womb with a 5-year plan.

1:12:49 Okay, and I don’t do that anymore. Good. I don’t, I’m, yeah, I, I’m, I’m just, see work, guys, and see, see what I’ve, yeah, I mean, I’ve got two kids. They need to go. I need to, you know, make some money for them.

1:13:02 I think, you, so I’ve got, I’m, have to try and do something, but I don’t know what yet, but you kind of preaching to the choir here when it comes to that, cuz like when you sold your business and left Toronto, I mean, you were going to ride across China on a motorcycle. That’s not a 5-year plan. No, so you know, I quit a steady income to see if people wanted to listen to me on iTunes. So that’s not a plan by any means. So but that can be really good, because first of all, you’re creating which is important, and you’re exposing yourself to more people, and so, like, I think as long as you’re doing that, then things will come your way.

1:13:32 You know, if you’re, if you’re locking your doors and watching TV, that’s not a good plan, but as long as you’re out there and taking risks, which you are, and exposing yourself, and you’re going to get people who don’t like what you do, and some people that do, and then you know it’s nice to, it can be cool, living your life that way, creating things too. I think it’s cool. It’s like, if you’re creating original things, sure, a lot of them might be crap, but, but you know, you enjoy doing it, and hopefully something, if you can just make a couple of people laugh, that’s what I think, if I can, or maybe make people think differently about the way they think about relationships and dating, just to question maybe their assumptions, and if I could do that, then that’s pretty much what I wanted to do, wanted to achieve.

1:14:11 Yeah, because before, I mean, like, when you were in finance, when I was we weren’t really creating something. Okay, you’re running a business, but we weren’t really creating stuff. I mean, you were, when you were matchmaking, you were doing a good job, and you probably were creating relationships. That’s different than what you’re doing now. Yes, is making.

1:14:25 I don’t know, art. Is that what this is? Yeah, but if, if I can put into a book, sort of the message that I was trying to tell everybody, then I can reach more people, rather than just having this sort of one-to-one individual, even though it’s not a self-help book, I still think it will make people think differently about how they perceive relationships, in a way. I’m excited about this, and I’m really impressed. Like, I see you popping up, and, you know, Good Housekeeping and like Grazia, and it’s really cool that you’re going after this and, like, really promoting it the way you are with your blog, and you’re big on Twitter, and on Twitter you’re Haley Hill now, right?

1:14:55 There’s a lot of Haley Hills out there. I know there’s too many. Of course there’s like Brian Roses, there’s like 50 of them on Facebook. What’s going to happen in like 20 years? You’re going to like name your child by the Twitter handle that’s available, going to be like, this, reverse, I didn’t think that was exactly.

1:15:10 Hold on, let’s look at baby names. Hold on, run those through Twitter and see what’s available. Thought about that. It’s trippy. There’s a lot of you out there.

1:15:19 There are too many Haley Hills, and it’s quite a silly name as well. Yeah, it’s quite a, it’s a little bit, you know, like a made-up name, isn’t it? A Hollywood name, stage name. Yeah. All right.

1:15:29 Um, Haley, we’re going to hit you with the advice question, which we ask everyone here on London Real, and we’ve been asking people on Silicon Real lately. Um, if you could make a phone call to the 20-year-old Haley. I don’t know what, what the hell she was doing, what nonsense she was up to, and you could give her some advice. What would it be? Oh my God, that’s a really good question.

1:15:49 Really good question. I, I would probably say firstly, I’d say stop planning. Okay, stop with a 5-year plan. Stop with the five-year plan. Really, why?

1:16:01 Because I think, I think I was just con. I think there was a guy you interviewed a little while ago, and I can’t remember his name, and he said the good times are now, and I can’t remember who it was, and it really resonated with me, because he’s right, because I’ve spent my life either looking back to the past, thinking what a great time I had, or planning for the future for this fantastic time I’m going to have, and forgetting to just enjoy the now. That sounds really cliche, but I think I looked back to when I was 20, and I thought, I could, I, I was having so much fun.

1:16:33 I had so much freedom, and I was learning, and I should have, instead of seeing work or life as a way to get somewhere, into, to achieve something. I should have just seen it for what it was, and just, you know, enjoyed it, been present. Yes, okay, and would you give any different advice to that 28-year-old you, or the 30-year-old you, which is right around the interesting time in the dating crossover of power? Yeah, get married now, quick, go, go. You’re never going to be better than you are today, lock and load.

1:17:05 Well, we didn’t do so bad. I know your husband, so you know, yeah, he’s cool. I did all right, but I do know that if I got divorced, I couldn’t remarry him again, cuz he’d, you know, it would be too late. Yeah, you can’t say that to him. No, I know I can’t.

1:17:18 Now he knows that already. He knows that. Told that, gates me. No joking. It’s, it’s interesting you say that, cuz you know, you do, like Colin said earlier, you know, when you meet that 35-year-old woman who’s had the experience and has everything, and one thing I do notice when you meet a woman in her late 30s, if she can still, you know, keep her self-confidence and her pride, and she hasn’t gotten beaten down by the game that’s told her, in a weird way, that she’s not the same value.

1:17:45 It’s a rare thing, and you meet these women, and sometimes they’re your grandma, or your aunt, or your uncle’s new wife, and you’re like, wow, what a powerful woman, kind of like an Audrey Hepburn when she got older. It’s not the age, it’s the way that, the, I suppose, this, the judgment of them in society, or the like, the value. You say is it’s the way it affects them, and it impacts them. Yeah, it’s whether they’re really comfortable with themselves, that they’re centered, and then that’s a really powerful thing.

1:18:13 When you see kind of like that late 30s woman, you know, with those features, those kind of personality. Um, just back to the advice, really quick. What’s the best bit of advice you’ve ever received? oh God, yeah, these are easy. That’s really hard.

1:18:26 Yeah, we got lots of time. Mommy, take a deep breath. I was, I was using these, told to you recently, right? That was my, uh, my 2-year-old daughter when I was getting angry. She told me, uh, two days ago, mommy, take a deep breath.

1:18:41 So I think that’s pretty good. That was good advice. What’s the best and worst part of parenthood? Oh, the best part just, h, get getting joy from seeing joy in another being. I think seeing your child laughing because they are so happy, and, and that it’s just unbelievable.

1:19:03 It’s not about you. It’s not about you being happy, it’s not about you enjoying something. It’s about watching them enjoy it, and it’s just more than anything. It’s, it’s amazing. The worst part for me, patience.

1:19:18 Having to have the patience. It’s just, well, you’ve got two twins as well. It’s just yeah, how tough was the first year? That’s what you, I, I’ve buried it somewhere back, but now I can’t. Don’t make me get it back out of that file, never to be opened again.

1:19:34 Lock and key. Yeah, we survived. We survived. We’re going to have you back for the PTSD episode. That’s what I’ve heard before, like, parents’ first year.

1:19:42 It’s, it’s almost like it’s not an enjoyment. It’s a survival. You get through it, and then it’s like, you, it’s amazing. Yeah, I, it’s all an individual experience. Some mothers I know had an amazing experience and didn’t find it stressful at all.

1:19:53 I found it very hard, and my husband found quite hard. And I think I would say about parenthood, you see, you see the best in your partner, and you see the worst in your partner, and you see the best in yourself and the worst in yourself. I didn’t learn so much about myself since I became a mother, and my limitations and my issues. Take a deep breath. And, um, the last bit of the advice question is, you know, to the 20-year-old girl listening right now who, you know, looks at you and like, I want to be an entrepreneur like her, or I want to publish a book like that.

1:20:23 What advice do you give to go for it? Just go for it, and don’t worry, and don’t plan. Just do it. You learn on the job. Just take a gamble, take a risk, and just keep, and keep your eye on the reason you’re doing it.

1:20:39 Don’t, don’t do it for money. Do it for the, the purpose that you want to set it up. Like, so you know, stick with that. Stick with that. Absolutely, stick with that, because people try and tell you this is more profitable, you need to do this, and you lose sight of the reason you’re doing it, and and just do it, and just learn.

1:20:53 Good advice. You’ve never been shy to give something a try, right? So ni, that’s very good advice. A lot of the advice, same advice keeps coming up, doesn’t it? Be present.

1:21:01 Common theme. Live in the moment and enjoy the time you’re at, and then go for it. So yeah, that’s awesome. Well, I’m really looking forward to your book. I’m going to order a copy.

1:21:09 Can I pre-order a copy on Amazon? Okay. And, um, that’s coming out the 24th, so, uh, check that out. They can buy it. Is it paperback, hardback?

1:21:17 What does it start off with? Paperback, no, back paper. Yeah, Kindle’s coming out as well. Okay, so they can get that as well. Yeah, okay, cool.

1:21:25 And, um, the website again is Matchmaker Musings, matchmaking.com. Okay, and Twitter is Haley Hill, Haley Hill now, Haley Hill now. Um, I can’t wait, and they can potentially stream your launch party as well. Yes, they will. Yeah, on Facebook, that’ll be on the Facebook page, and on my website as well.

1:21:41 Okay, awesome. Wow, that sounds really cool. Um, thanks for coming. Thanks for writing that book. I’m very curious how it is.

1:21:46 I think I know a few girls that want to read that. Um, it’s it sounds like something right off my wife’s, uh, I think yeah, yeah, she loves those. Uh, what’s the one that, um, the SNL girl wrote? She loves that one like crazy. Oh, Bossy Pants, maybe.

1:22:02 Tiffany, Tina Fey, Tina Fey. Yeah, she’s got big hands on the front, right? It’s like a man’s hands. I read that, actually. You, I don’t read that many books, but yeah, I read it.

1:22:12 She’s really funny, and she writes I don’t know how she writes a book and films 30 Rock. she multitasks a lot, and yeah, that’s a funny show. Um, but, um, awesome. Thanks so much for coming. Thanks for having me.

1:22:23 Great. Um, if, if you’re listening to us, and you want to see, uh, our lovely faces in our new, um, format, and, uh, you can come to, uh, YouTube channel at londonreal.tv. We have single-person, single cameras, like a real grownup TV show, and, um, check us out there. We’re on Twitter at @londonrealtv. Um, all the usual stuff, Facebook, um, if you want to help us out in any way, whether it’s final cut or booking guests or whatever, just intern, send me an email at [email protected].

1:22:50 And, um, that’s it. We’re going to keep, uh, keep chugging away, check calling out on Silicon Real, and, um, until then it’s about the journey. Thanks for coming. Thank you. All right, guys, bye.