Full transcript: Divinia Knowles on London Real
0:41 This is Silicon Real, the weekly talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. I am Brian Rose. I also host London Real, which is a similar setup. We all sit around this table. We get three people.
0:53 We try to figure some things out. We’ve had people like Tim Ferriss from the 4-Hour everything. Uh, we’ve had Max Keiser from Russia Today literally yelling about Bitcoin, uh, into your microphone. Uh, we had George Galloway here, who, uh, charmed the pants off of me. So if you want to check that out, please do.
1:10 But we’re here today to talk about tech. Uh, my co-host, uh, switched at the last minute and is Mr. Colin Pyle, uh, who is an entrepreneur here in London, who raced over to sit in for Mr. Bryce Keane. Uh, Colin, you’re doing online language schools. You got coffee pods from Coug Cafe. What’s going on?
1:25 Yeah, busy, busy, busy, busy. So, I’m off to, uh, off to Italy and Germany again to nail this down. Um, supply chain is difficult. It’s not easy, but we’re, we’re getting there. And uh, the coffee is tasting great.
1:38 So, excited to let it go to the public soon. Good. That’s why you get paid the big bucks to do this operational stuff. I don’t know about big bucks, but all right. Big Equity.
1:45 Big Equity. All right. That’s good. Um, let’s get going with the show. Our guest today is Divinia Knowles, who is the COO and CFO of Mind Candy, which is a uh British entertainment company, uh, formed in 2004 by Michael Acton Smith.
2:45 It’s based right here in Shoreditch. So, you’re, you’re a home girl. Uh, you guys are responsible for Moshi Monsters, which is a virtual world where, uh, 80 million children socialize and play games. That’s crazy. That’s bananas.
2:58 That’s bananas. Um, last year, I believe Moshi Monsters became the most licensed property in the UK. Uh, welcome to Silicon Real. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you very much for having me.
3:09 It’s, uh, it’s a real honor, and, and you guys, you know, you guys are always mentioned as a company by all the startups around here as someone that, like, they can grow up and be like one day. I mean, I don’t know if you know that, but you guys really inspire, like, a lot of people in the community. Well, I think that’s amazing. Yeah, that’s an amazing, uh, amazing place to be, I think. And, uh, yeah, I’m honored.
3:28 You know, I was, I had one of my most embarrassing moments on London Real when Bryce Keane was here, and he was representing the whole area, and he, he mentioned, or maybe it was, maybe it was a Silicon Real in the beginning, and he mentioned Moshi Monsters, and this is what I say, and I’m so embarrassed to say. I said, what is a Moshi Monster? Like. Yeah. And like, and I was bad too, cuz I, cuz we were like, who we’re going to the drink about.
3:49 I’m like, tell us about the drinkabout. He’s like, Michael Acton Smith sort of helped him out, started. I’m like, Michael Acton, sorry, you know what I mean? I didn’t know. I, I was, uh, gosh, you had even heard of Michael.
4:00 Wow. I hadn’t. I’m really sorry, Michael, if you’re listening. I have definitely heard of you now, and Moshi Monsters. We were, we were real newbies back in the day, but, you know, now we kind of know.
4:08 I was just wondering, I mean, you’ve been at the company since 2006. Is that about right? That’s right. So, you were there when the monsters were created. Yes.
4:15 And I was just wondering if you could remember back to, you know, the day when people started talking about this concept, and did people, or you kind of know, this, this had legs from the beginning, because, you know, it’s, it’s pretty out there. I know. It’s an interesting one, because I do remember when Michael first was kind of sketching in coffee shops, and he had ideas for characters, and he’d been around to a lot of trade shows with his other company, Firebox.
4:38 Really loved virtual pets, uh, really interested in kind of kids and gaming, and all of that sort of stuff. And he had had this amazing idea for a social network for kids, and, uh, we were doing Public City at the time, and it wasn’t going very well, and we kind of knew that we had to do something quite drastic to kind of make the company successful going forward. And I just remember seeing the early sketches and just thinking that it was so charming and so wonderful, and it would be amazing to do something with kids as well, because it’s kind of worthy, something nice about that.
5:04 Um, yeah, I just thought it was really, really amazing. Uh, I thought a social network for kids, kids are really underserved. Uh, a lot of time they’re dumbed down as well. Um, kids love to socialize, but everything about it was good, and the characters were just special, and yeah, I had a really good sense that it’d be amazing. And this is back in the days when there were literally tumbleweeds going through the old Silicon Roundabout.
5:24 I mean, there was no one around here, right? There was no, let alone no Google campus. That was years to come. But like very few people. Well, we weren’t here then either.
5:32 You weren’t. Okay. Well, there you go. No, no, we were next to a cement works in Batsy. So, yeah.
5:36 Yeah. You guys started Battery. Okay. And when did you move here to this area? We moved here in, uh, 2010.
5:43 Yeah. So, not for a few. We were there for quite some time, and it did get to, we were like, it’s about 4,000 square feet, and there were lots of people crammed into that office, you know, elbow to elbow. Kind of, we really packed people in before we moved. Um, but yeah, it’s been really successful, and Moshi Monsters has been amazing.
6:00 Kids absolutely love it. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I watch my nine-year-old. She’s all over the Moshi Monsters. Like, I watch her play this, and I watch her play Minecraft, and those are both okay because she’s always using her brain, and she’s answering questions, and, like, you know, these are good things.
6:13 So can you just explain for me the Moshi Monster game, I guess, for an adult with no children? Okay, great. Good question. So, Moshi Monsters is a, uh, a virtual pet experience that’s also a social network for children. It’s aimed at kids between the ages of seven and 12.
6:29 And there are six main monsters you adopt, and you nurture and look after, and you play with. Uh, but you can also message your friends. You can have your best friends on there. Um, it’s really kind of got stealth education baked in, because you have to answer questions to earn currency to feed your monster. So, it’s like a lovely kind of cycle of, of things that you do on there.
6:47 And when we first started it, you know, it was just a monster in a room, and, uh, kids went crazy for it because you could adopt your own pet monster, which was the cool kind of tagline. And then it just spread in playgrounds, cuz kids just shared it with one another, and they wanted to message each other, and so on. Uh, and then we built out the world, and it was kind of a bit like Frankenstein’s monster, because we just added this and added that and added this, and so now the world is huge.
7:09 Uh, it’s a map. It’s based around a map. It’s got kind of like different islands that you can go on to. It’s amazing. Let’s play or no?
7:16 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So cool.
7:17 My, uh, we have a chief community and safety officer, and she’s kind of, uh, she’s mid-50s, and the, she’s been on it for years and years and years, and the kids kind of all think that she can’t be that old. And so, I, when I was growing up, they had the Tamagotchi doll. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
7:33 So it’s like that, on. Yeah. It’s like that but, like, kind of magnified. Yeah. Like, and teched up.
7:39 And what was, what was the evolution from like 07 to 10 to, to now? Did it take a while to get going? I mean, you said kids mention it in the playground, but did they know how to get on the, to a browser at the time? Well, because, you so, you were accelerating right when tech and mobile was kind of accelerating. Yeah.
7:56 So, we kind of, it’s web-based. The original game, and kids were playing things like Club Penguin, which is our biggest competitor. So they already could go on different virtual worlds, and Neopets was a big kind of big thing as well. Um, so they had, there were other things they could do online. So it wasn’t an unusual play pattern.
8:12 It was just a new thing for them. Um, it is incredibly viral because you can kind of connect with your friends and send them gifts and all of this other stuff. So did kids spread it in playgrounds? But we basically started building it in 2007, launched it in 2008. Um, when we put in all the social features, friends tree, um, there’s a wall, like in Facebook, you can message uh kids one on, uh, like one-on-one.
8:37 Um, and once we did all of that stuff, it really started to take off. It was one of those hockey stick curves that you don’t often see. Um, and then we sort of, uh, layered on some really clever marketing. Did lots of TV advertising, and it just went crazy, and they’re just kind of kids just spreading it everywhere. Parents really got involved in it as well, because they like the fact that it was kind of semi-educational.
8:59 And then in 2010 we started doing licensing deals. So we signed our first licensing deal with Penguin. That was books. And then we did trading cards. Uh, and then we did kind of little figurines and toys and all sorts of other stuff.
9:12 The toys got banned in school playgrounds, which is great. We love it when that happens, because then kids want it even more. Um, and it really kind of really took off. So 2012 was massive. It was really huge.
9:23 Um, and that was kind of its height, um, on web. And it’s interesting, because there’s been this really interesting shift. Kids are moving on to mobiles and tablet devices. And so we’ve been spending the last year really building up our mobile offering for Moshi and other IPs as well. So it’s been an interesting kind of transition for the company, from that original web business, web, physical, and now onto mobile.
9:43 So that’s what we’ve been doing. But yeah, it’s been an amazing ride. Really, really cool. You guys had a feature film. We did.
9:50 Yeah. Yeah. So that’s, you know, going from a monster in a room in 2007 to the big screen, to huge. And yeah, it’s so funny. I just remember, when, uh, in the very early days of kind of Moshi Monsters, you’d meet people and they’d, you know, you’d say, “I work for Mind Candy.”
10:04 And they’re like, “Who are they?” And you, you’d say, you know, “Oh, we build, we’re building Moshi Monsters.” And they were like, “What’s that?” And now you say it in the UK and parents like, “Oh, not that thing.” I should have shares in you.
10:14 And you know, it’s completely different. Yeah. It’s amazing. But I do remember when it was just, you had to explain it everywhere you went, and people are like, “That’s weird.” Yeah.
10:23 But, um, but it’s really cool. Yeah. And music as well. You guys signed something with Sony Music last year, or you’ve been doing something with music the whole time. Mhm.
10:31 So we, we did music back in 2010, and we launched our first album, which, which is Music Rocks. Um, has 13 tracks on it, which are also music videos that you can watch on YouTube, and the YouTube videos have millions and millions of views. But the album, um, it went to number four. It beat Madonna. I mean, that’s pretty cool, right?
10:48 Very cool. Wow. And do adults listen to this too? Well, I’d like to think so. I mean, the music’s cool because it kind of adds bits to the story that you wouldn’t already know.
10:58 So, for example, Doctor Strange Glove is the villain in Moshi Monsters, and the music video about him tells you how he lost his hand, which you can’t really find out anywhere else. So, it kind of fills in gaps in the story, and that’s why kids love them so much, and they’re animated and they’re slapstick, and they’re silly, and they’re odd jokes, and they’re for parents, and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. So, that’s what’s good. If you ever watch, like, the old Popeye, or watch The Simpsons, there’s, like, two levels of humor.
11:21 SpongeBob. Yeah. SpongeBob, like. Yeah. Or maybe three levels.
11:24 I don’t know how you look at it. You know, this is episode 31 or 32 on Silicon Real. And I think you’re the very first entertainment company that we’ve had on. You know, we’ve had all the, the not the usual suspects, but all the tech startups that want to, you know, um, outsource all this unusable inventory, W Plan, Halo, that kind of thing. We’ve had the people that want to create new tech products, you know, um, Pixel Pin, that kind of thing.
11:45 But we really haven’t had anyone whose main job is to entertain. And I just must be strange, cuz you guys started from so small and you created these products. I mean, you guys are competing against the big entertainment companies in Hollywood. And like, what makes you guys think you can do that, or is that part of the innovator’s dilemma that you guys do it better? Uh, it’s an interesting one.
12:04 I think, uh, IP is fascinating because it’s hard to do, and there aren’t that many companies, I think, that can create really interesting IP from scratch. So it’s not like it’s, it’s kind of a defensible idea, because it’s not going to be hundreds of companies that try and enter that space. You have to have a certain DNA to do that. Um, we are going up against the big companies, but the interesting thing about the bigger companies is that they struggle with digital.
12:25 Even Disney, their dig, their digital side is not great, and, uh, they’re really struggling with how they kind of approach digital, and their digital products are okay, but they’re not kind of hugely, hugely successful. Um, so we are attacking it from that angle. We can be a digital entertainment company because we have that DNA, DNA from the scratch, whereas with those guys it’s like trying to turn a tanker, um, and get that DNA in their business. But they’ve been turning for five years.
12:49 Is it, must be surprising to you that they haven’t got it right quicker, or is it not? Not really. Not given how big they are. I mean, these are massive corporations. It’s hard for them to kind of change their DNA over a period of time.
13:02 Um, they will get it eventually. Um, but we have time in that time to kind of disrupt and kind of get big. Um, but yeah, I just think that we as a company have a really innate understanding now of kids, and we’ve built up some really interesting expertise. So yeah, we can be a challenger. And who doesn’t love an underdog as well?
13:19 That’s the other thing about this. People kind of love our story because all of the, the companies we’re up against are big behemoth companies and the little challenger company. But yeah. Yeah, I think that we do have the DNA to do this. And right now we’re producing two other IPs that aren’t Moshi.
13:34 Um, so this is the test of whether we can really do this, and do it multiple times as well, with different IPs. But they’re, they’re amazing. So I think the answer is yes. Is that the trick? I mean, because you guys have been doing Moshi for six, seven years, and is is that is it fair, fair to say that that is your main income stream?
13:50 Everything Moshi, everything Moshi, at the moment is our main income stream. Um, but there, I mean, Moshi is interesting because it has, two, over 200 characters in Moshi that are all quite different. So we’ve not just produced one thing and then carried on with it. We’ve adapted that over a period of time. Um, but now it is time to, to prove that we can do other things for other demographics as well.
14:12 Okay. Your major source of revenue is, is it in-game purchases? So, it’s half and half, half digital and half physical now. Okay. And that’s kind of crept up over a period of time, but yeah, we have half and half revenue now.
14:24 Cool. And there’s quite a bit of drama going on right now about in-game purchases and controlling it. Maybe you could shed some light on that and where you guys stand. Yeah, I, I think it’s an interesting one, because it’s like watching an evolution in the market, right? So, I think in, in different countries, so in the US, in-app purchasing and, and kids is sort of feels like less of an issue, because they’re kind of more used to it.
14:46 It’s a more established thing there. Um, I think that’s where we will get to as well. It’s, it’s really difficult. The OFT are currently conducting investigations into these different companies and aggressive kind of, uh, commercialization practices towards children and so on. And we don’t want to do that.
15:01 We want children to really enjoy our products and so on, but ultimately we’re also a business. Um, so we’re just trying to be really mindful of kids and not trying to overcommercialize children, but also trying to produce something that’s of value to children and parents. Um, use the trust that we have with parents as well, so that we have that as kind of part of our DNA too. Um, but ultimately we’re a business. We feel like the in-app purchases thing will change over a period of time, and we will help try and help educate children, parents, along that journey, as we have done with the web as well.
15:35 It’s crazy. You hear sort of these horror stories of kids racking up like five, ten grand bills through in-app purchases. And it’s, it’s tricky. I think, I think it’s really interesting that that sort of the generation, I guess, maybe my age or a little bit younger. I’m 32.
15:50 We’re going to be on the same side of tech as our kids. So, we’ll be a little bit more aware of, of controlling that sort of thing. Whereas if it’s, you know, a 55-year-old parent or 60-year-old parent who’s not so techy, um, and their kid really is, then they can, they just have no idea what’s going on. Mhm. And it’s kind of interesting as well, cuz, like, so I have a six-year-old nephew, and he’s amazing.
16:12 And this year for Christmas he got a tablet. So, like, my brother, who’s quite tech-savvy, um, he just set it all up for him, set the right kind of defaults and settings and things so he can’t get himself into trouble. And you know, it’s kind of like good parenting and what have you, and, um, you know, if he wants to buy something he asks, and all the rest of that, but my brother’s not going to stop him from kind of enjoying entertainment and purchasing things if he wants to, but it’s going to be done in a responsible way, with my brother’s kind of intervention as well, kind of his involvement.
16:40 So I think we have to get to that rather than just saying that kids aren’t allowed to buy anything, because you know, Moshi kids have subscriptions to Moshi. They are purchasing, but they get a lot of value out of Moshi, and parents enjoy that, um, and parents are on board with that. So, I think we need to get to that. I’ve seen pictures of your office, and it looks like, you know, a virtual playland. They got a slide.
17:01 They’ve got like all these crazy, just like, worlds that seem to be in there. And like one of your employees was quoted as saying the culture here is playful, passionate, and inspiring. And you’ve got over 200 employees, or pushing 200. Just under, just under 200. Yeah.
17:14 And you know, you’re in the entertainment sphere, which is completely different than most companies around here. You need creative people. Absolutely. If you don’t create, then you guys, you guys won’t win in the long run. How do you… is, I guess, this is a conscious thing that you and Michael promote inside the company, and how important is that, and how do you keep that going?
17:32 Yeah. Oh, it’s huge. Uh, one of the main things we want our employees to be creative and passionate and playful and really enjoy, um, coming to work every day, enjoy their environment, feel that they can create there. Um, and so yeah, so it is like a kids’ playground when you go in there. It’s also partially because we conduct kids’ tours, and kids come in and use a test, and we really want them to feel like they’re inside our kind of creative world and they’re inside Moshi.
17:57 Um, but yeah, for our staff, we, we try and be playful. We encourage them to have kind of creative time, good ideas. They go down the slide. We have kind of staff lunches, we get people together. Um, we, we kind of promote by having kind of after-work clubs and all of that sort of thing, and really try and give them an, uh, an environment like no other so they can continue to enjoy themselves there, because, feel like that’s inspirational.
18:20 At the end of the day, they’ll feel inspired to do more, be more creative, and actually, you know, it can’t, the ideas that we have internally can’t all come from one person. We’re creating a boy’s IP at the moment, which is just beautiful. It’s amazing, and it was, the idea came from a guy internally who’s, uh, one of our art directors, and he has kids, and he just, from playing with his kids, he kind of came up with this amazing idea for an IP, and it’s just incredible, and we, we want that.
18:47 We want to actively encourage that, so it’s all part of the same thing really, encouraging ideas and creativity. It’s hard to do though. Yeah, it must be tricky, and it must be tricky just to keep people excited to come to work every day. I mean, it’s hard to do. Most companies fail at that.
19:01 Do you fear, as you guys get bigger, that it’s going to be more and more difficult, um, to sort of fall over that corporate cliff of sort of greyness? Yeah, I think, I think it’s tough. Any growing business is going to find it really hard to keep that going. Uh, I feel like we have a really good foundation because it is kind of our values are all around being creative and playful and passionate and so on. So we have a kind of good start and a good foundation, but I think we have to be mindful of it as we go on, and really kind of keep an eye on it and make sure that we develop that as we go.
19:34 Um, but yeah, more slides, uh, more bean bags, um, get in, getting inspirational people into talk. We have Moshicon every year, which is like a yearly conference where everyone gets together, kind of somewhere else. Um, we’ve been to Euro Disney and kind of other places, and we get people together and they speak passionately about what they care about and what they work on and all that sort of stuff. So we just need to kind of keep that going, keep communication going, and not let it get too corporate either.
20:00 It’s hard to be corporate in that environment, actually. That’s true. Yeah. If there’s any company that could do it, it’s yours. Yeah, that’s very true.
20:07 Yeah. Right. You know, you’re a COO and a CFO, our first on the show. And, um, I’d be honest, I used to be a CFO. That was my job in the dot-com days in ’99.
20:16 I went back to New York, and I was like, I’m going to be the CFO of luxuryfinder.com. That was the thing, and I was 28. And I was wearing my suit and tie to work. And after about a month, I realized that being the CFO is the most thankless job in the company. It was brutal.
20:31 You know, it was brutal. And because you had to kind of make sure, let alone the COO, which is the operating officer, you have to make sure it all happens, yet you don’t always get credit for the vision. Even though many times in a startup, you’re just as much part of that vision. I know you’re on the board, etc. So, for people that don’t know, what’s it like being the CFO, COO?
20:51 What’s a typical day for you? My goodness. I, I don’t have typical days. That’s kind of probably what the best thing about my job is. Every day is completely different.
21:00 The CFO stuff is interesting. I mean, I have an amazing finance team. It’s worth pointing that out as well. And I did build it so that I could be COO and CFO. So, they’re really kind of good guys.
21:09 They, um, they, they know what they’re doing all the time. They’re really great. CFO is a difficult one, because it’s largely a black box. And unless you tell people what you do, they’re like, “What exactly is that role? What do you do on a daily basis?”
21:21 And even when you explain it, I think people look at you like, “What?” Um, but yeah, even like the CFO of Goldman Sachs, you’re like, “But what? What do you do?” Because for every company it’s such a different job, isn’t it? It is a different job.
21:32 I think, you know, um, being the CFO of Mind Candy is great. We have a lot of diversified revenue streams. We’re constantly creative about how we’re going to keep the business growing. Um, we, you know, obviously Moshi has done incredibly well. So, we do have kind of good, healthy cash flow, and all of that sort of stuff.
21:49 But then we have been in situations as well when we were worried about making payroll, and all that sort of stuff. So, it’s been a roller coaster, but I think startup CFOs are used to that. And you just have to be really, um, careful, keep monitoring stuff, uh, make sure that you are always on top of things, that you’re watching what’s happening with your cash, that you’re just being very mindful of what’s going on. And even in, you know, as creative as the company is, we have to make sure we have budgets, and we have to make sure that we have people who are responsible for revenue targets, and all of that sort of stuff.
22:18 And that’s the stuff that you don’t see. You see the slide, and you see the astroturf, and all of this other stuff. You don’t see all of the underlying foundation that keeps it going. And that’s the thankless stuff that no one else sees. But it’s weird.
22:31 I don’t know. Uh, we had a chief product officer who started about six months ago, and one of the first things he said to me is, by the way, thanks for doing all that stuff, because no one else would want to do that. You know, it’s kind of not really, you know, they appreciate the creativity, and they appreciate that that probably is kind of a bit of an unsung hero thing to do. Um, but yeah, it’s just a careful balance, uh, between the creativity and, in our world as well.
22:57 We could do anything, literally: movies, animated series. We could do anything. And I think we just have to be very careful what we focus on, because, you know, we are a business after all. We can’t be too crazy. We just have to kind of keep the lights on and so on.
23:10 The COO piece is, um, really around strategy for the business. Making sure that the management team are kind of all aligned, making sure that we’re all kind of pulling in the right direction, making sure the right resources and the right people in the organization, and so on. So, that one is kind of a very, um, all over the place, kind of trying to be everywhere all the time. Um, and yeah, it’s just a constant, constantly moving movable feast, I think.
23:34 Uh, but enjoyable. Really enjoyable. I’ve got a feeling if you were in a budget meeting with Divinia, you would just, she would be like, “Oh, yeah. What about that?” “What about the 59p at the end of that?”
23:44 “Better be prepared.” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You better be ready.
23:48 Am I wrong? Your background, your background, is as an accountant, too. Right. Yeah. I, I am an accountant.
23:54 Yeah. Exactly. So, but I’m a management accountant. That’s a more analytical accountant rather than the financial accountant, which is more hardcore. But yeah, I, I mean, I am tough on the finance stuff, but then on the flip side of that, I think people at Mind Candy are very respectful about that stuff, and we do go out of our way to try and teach people and educate them, and don’t make it just some process they have to follow.
24:14 It’s more that they understand why we’re trying to do it, and, you know, we try and be transparent with our financials and all of that sort of stuff, so they’re part of it rather than just being kind of, you know, uh, doing what we’re asking them to do. They’re actually part of our story. So it’s cool. So how much does a slide cost? That’s a real question.
24:29 How much? We didn’t. We didn’t pay for our slide. Oh, you got it free. See, say well done.
24:34 There you go. There you go. Get someone else to pay for it. Landlords wanted us so much they paid for our slide. Yeah.
24:41 Um, we are moving out unless we get a slide. See, I need to. That’s a good point. So, your job isn’t simply just to reel in the creatives and be like, “Okay, hold on a second. This is going to cost, you know, this.”
24:53 And I mean, is it part of the… I have those moments. Have those moments of like, hang on a second. Um, because it is, it’s lovely, like, kind of Michael is an incredibly creative soul as well. Like, he has just… he has notebooks full of ideas, and they’re all amazing ideas.
25:09 Any one of them, I’m sure, could be an incredibly successful business in its own right. But somebody has to be like, hold on a second. What are we doing here? How is this going to, you know, grow our business? Is it going to grow in the right way?
25:21 Is this going to work as part of our portfolio? So somebody has to be there to be the not joy killer, but, you know, kind of just, uh, to bring it all in, reel them in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
25:30 Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t seem like you would have a company structured this way with these kind of deals and, and revenue and licensing products without a very strong backbone, you know, there, set up by probably her, to make sure that everything’s happening. Um, you know, we had Jason Goodman from Albian in here a couple weeks ago, and he was saying that one of, uh, one of their founders, or one of the people on the board, I think it was Saul Klein, said you should be spending 50 to 60% of your time recruiting.
25:54 And I was wondering if you think that’s an accurate number, and if you, if you spend a lot of your time recruiting. Loads. Yeah. Recruitment is a huge part of my job, but then it’s a huge part of all of the chiefs at Mind Candy. They’re all involved in recruitment.
26:10 Um, we’re really careful about who we employ. Want to make sure we have people who are good, skills, high quality, but also really fit into our culture and share our values. So, yeah. So, everyone’s really involved in it. I meet everybody.
26:23 So does Michael. Uh, and it sounds like overkill, but it’s not really, when you consider that you’re building a business for the long term, and you want to make sure that everyone is, in, is as invested as you are. So, yeah, I don’t deny that. That’s a huge part. And also, I also look after HR recruitment at Mind Candy anyway, directly.
26:39 So, um, it’s my direct thing, but I believe it is also the responsibility of the whole company to look after recruitment, um, business. What do you look for when they come in and see you for that one hour? Like, you just… we really want you, but you got to get past the final gauntlet of Divinia. What, what kind of things should you ask them? Um, I, I really look for people who share our vision.
27:00 They, uh, are drinking the Kool-Aid. You know, they really kind of care about what we’re trying to achieve as a a digital entertainment company as much as we are. that they have, um, that they’ve read about us, that they’ve kind of been really, uh, invested to the point that they wanted to find out as much as they could about us. They care. They know that they can add a lot of value.
27:20 They are very playful. They’re passionate. They know their stuff. They have really good, I mean, the list is kind of endless. And recently we kind of did this thing where we, um, between myself, Michael, the CEO, and our chief product officer, we shared the traits we look for in people.
27:35 And all our lists were massive. Like, it felt like a bit of a laundry list, and hard to, hard to kind of be someone on the receiving end of that. But actually when you meet someone, I think that you just generally tend to know within about 10 minutes, you know, probably less. We’re probably less, you just know. Um, but we have some amazing people at Mind Candy.
27:54 I mean, the people quality there is huge, and we get people, you know, we employ people here. We employ people from Europe. We employ, we get people over from the US. We’ve kind of, a lot of people encouraged, a lot of people to come over from the US, uh, to work with us. So, we have people from everywhere.
28:08 It’s a very, uh, diverse culture. What, what are some of the lessons you learned, or mistakes you made, that maybe other people could learn from? I, I think you’ve been quoted as saying you, you wish you had gotten into mobile sooner. Is there, is there anything that, that, that you can see that other people might learn from for things that you’ve mistakes you guys made? Yeah, I mean, that point is interesting, because we could see where this was going.
28:28 We could see that kids were moving on to mobile, and we talked about mobile for years, and we were saying, you know, God, we should address that at some point, but we, because the web was going so well, we were kind of like, and we kind of have a lot going on, uh, lots of kind of different things, including the licensing side and everything else. We were like, well, let’s just not kind of go too crazy, let’s try and focus on what we’re doing, um, and it just… it kind of caught up on us. It kind of, the transition was really quick.
28:52 Um, so that was definitely one. And I think that in future, if we see something like that happening, we will jump on it a lot faster, because we were slow. And I say that it’s slightly tinged by the fact that I know that lots of other companies have been in exactly the same position. So I know that we’re not alone, but I, I wish we were faster. Um, hiring made some terrible hiring mistakes.
29:13 Um, you know, as much as we’re careful, have done that. Um, and I, I know again, I’m sure every company has done that. Um, and also, when we’ve made a mistake, sometimes we’ve been really slow to deal with it, and that’s, I think, also very dangerous. Um, we’ve… we’ve tried to get better about how we manage that, also kind of managing, managing the cultural piece. You don’t want, you know, to upset people in your organization when you do that, but you do have to deal with that fast.
29:40 Um, it’s hard getting rid of people, right? Yeah, that’s a tough one. That’s a tough one, especially people that you have invested a lot in, and they have invested a lot in you, and they may not be right for your organization, and that’s a hard one. That’s really hard. Um, that’s not something that I necessarily enjoy, but it’s a necessary evil.
29:57 Um, you know, we’ve done some deals in the past that have gone south, but I’m sure, again, I’m sure lots of other companies can say the same, and we’ve learned a lot from doing those deals and what it’s like to have really trusted partners and build really great relationships with other companies, and all of that sort of thing. So, lots of lessons, but I feel like building businesses is essentially about making a lot of mistakes, and then just learning from them and making sure you don’t make them twice. Amen to that.
30:21 Amen. What, how much of your market is in the US? Uh, not, not as much as we’d like. It’s interesting, because, um, from a web perspective, we kind of almost have the same amount of users in the UK as we do in the US, but that’s more of a drop in the ocean there, because the market’s so huge. Um, so we’re really, we’re targeting the US this year, and we really think that the mobile titles we’ve created will help to unlock the US for us, and, and that will be massive when we do that.
30:48 So, Moshi, some kids know Moshi there. It’s really mixed. Um, it, it didn’t take off quite in the same way as the UK did. Um, but we think with mobile we can probably crack that. Um, and with other IPs as well, targeting different demographics and so on.
31:01 How about Asia? Are you in Asia at all? Uh, we’re not at the moment. Uh, but again, mobile, because it’s easy localization, that will also unlock other markets. The fascinating thing about Moshi, which, kind of, is huge from an opportunity perspective, is it was only ever in English.
31:16 So it was huge in English-speaking markets, UK, um, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. But it was never localized. So there are all these kids in the world who don’t even know that it exists. And soon they will, which will be nice. And, and they’re visual.
31:30 They’re a cool little monster. So it seems like, it’s an easy, adaptable piece. Absolutely. And everyone says that it looks quite Japanesy, and we’ve never tested that. Yeah.
31:38 I know, it just seems like something… well, the Tamagotchi doll, I guess, was Japanese, but, but then, you know, just China, the market. Well, I was just reading something: the Chinese New Year has just sort of happened, and on the Chinese New Year television special, 700 million people tuned in. Right. So you think about this Super Bowl that was on, on Sunday. I think it was like 180.
31:57 It’s like the biggest event in, and they, and this is like, you know, six months. It’s incredible. And people that will have mobiles and will have small amounts of incremental income. Well, that’s the thing, right? The, the, the barrier to entry is so low.
32:10 It’s huge. But the mobile market there is totally different in China. Yeah. Um, kind of, uh, the operators there are much bigger. Um, the kind of app stores are not as, kind of, like, it’s much more fragmented.
32:22 So when we do enter China, we’re going to have to really think about how we do it. Just China Mobile. Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. You’re friendly with them, and, and, and yeah, good shape.
32:32 Yeah, but Alibaba just got a valuation above Facebook almost now, which is wow. Crazy. So, yeah, it’s an interesting market. But talk to us about London. You, you’ve been in, you’ve been around for a while.
32:43 You’ve seen, you know, this whole area become crazy. You’ve seen probably the nth incubator come and go. You know, you’ve seen all these crazy stories that are happening, and, and, uh, obviously you spent time on the west coast of the US and raised money, and all that kind of thing. What are we doing right in London, and what have we not got right yet? I think, um, we are shining a light on entrepreneurialism, which I love.
33:07 Um, and Silicon Roundabout is interesting, because when you actually look at London, it’s not the only hub. There’s now, like, um, Silicon Hill, and what is that? That’s in Notting Hill. Okay. Um, and there’s, there’s loads of them, like, um, I know Silicon Beach is in Brighton, but not in London.
33:23 But these, these hubs are everywhere, and all over the United Kingdom as well. Manchester as well is huge. So, it’s interesting, because the PR is focused here, but I think that’s more because it’s kind of trying to build up entrepreneurialism and startups and what it’s like to work in a startup, and really get that across to people, because I think it’s a little bit unknown, far more kind of US-centric, and so on. So, I, I love kind of all of that sort of stuff.
33:44 I think as well the incubator thing is good. You know, we’ve created a lot of incubators that kind of are getting startups going and giving them a lot of support, and VCs are getting more involved with those incubators. So, from very early kind of stage, there are advisers that can help people. I still think there’s a funding gap. There’s like an early-stage funding gap that we somehow need to, to kind of get across.
34:06 Um, Angel, Series A, both somewhere between Angel and Series A. Actually, I feel like there, there is a, it’s problematic for, for startups. Um, I think that, uh, so we’re encouraging startups, which is great, but there does need to, there needs to be more infrastructure and so on, and that piece is good. Um, yeah, I, I think it’s an interesting ecosystem for startups now, and actually lots of the startups, when we first came to Silicon Roundabout, and we were one of the sort of bigger ones.
34:32 Now some of the smaller ones are really starting to grow. So it’s becoming really interesting that lots of the smaller startups are now becoming bigger startups. We’ve got a lot more hope of there being some form of kind of London IPO or something exciting, because there are lots of different companies taking shape. Yeah. Is that something you would ever consider, the IPO, asking straight to the CFO?
34:51 Oh, we, we have so much going on at the moment, and we have so many things that we want to do. We want to be truly global. We want to have more than one IP. Um, we want to really get onto mobile. We’ve got so much work to do that, that is kind of a, it’s, it’s a dream in the future, but it’s kind of distant.
35:07 So, we don’t have any formal plans or anything. We’re just kind of going to keep building our business and see what happens. So, that’s a politician’s answer to your question. Very good answer. Very skilled.
35:17 I like that. You’ve answered that before. You said the second city you would rather live in is San Francisco, I believe. I don’t know if I quoted you right, but, uh, oh, did I say that? Yeah, I think you did say that.
35:27 And I, I was just wondering, the internet. How, I know. I know. We say it once. It’s, it’s record.
35:32 How would Moshi be different if you guys were located in San Francisco, or when you travel to LA or San Francisco, like Los Angeles, you know, the centre of whatever it is, you know, creation and media, technically? What do you see differently there? Or how would your company be different if you were located in California than, say, here? The vibe is slightly different, I’d say. Like, San Francisco is amazing, and every time we go there, we’re really lucky, because we seem to be quite well connected, in the sense that we just tend to get invited around to other startups.
35:58 So you kind of get to go in and see what they’re all about, and kind of cute, cuddly creatures. So everyone has to be nice to, but given as well that we’re less well known there. It’s kind of quite nice that people are prepared to invite us in anyway. Um, yeah, it’s kind of like, uh, bit more of a relaxed vibe. Um, startups are more well known.
36:17 Uh, people kind of like understand startups there when they’re kind of employees, understand startups more. They understand, kind of like, the share options thing, and being a company owner, and what it’s like to just really kind of have to build a business from scratch, um, and maybe sleep under your desk, and all of that sort of stuff. That’s kind of a known in the US, and I think here in the UK that’s not a known. Um, you get people, kind of, the attitude slightly different.
36:42 People really care about their work-life balance. Not that they shouldn’t, but I kind of think that there’s a passion thing about building a startup from scratch. You’ve got to really kind of care about it to the point where your work and your life aren’t dissimilar. You know, I kind of, when people talk to me about work-life balance, and this is completely personal, getting hired, it’s it’s completely my opinion, but I don’t have a work-life balance because I love what I do so much.
37:08 And so, it’s kind of like my life intertwined. And when I met Michael, that’s what I loved about him from the first moment I met him. And from, like, previous owner-founders I’ve worked with as well. I think more that’s kind of now, here it’s that’s different. Um, you know, and people can have a work-life balance if they go and work in a bigger organization.
37:26 But I think if you’re building a startup from scratch, you’ve, it’s got to be in your soul. You’ve got to care about it so much and want to work on it. And even when you’re kind of not thinking about it, you are thinking about it. You know what I mean? When you’re in the shower and when you’re making your breakfast and you’re just thinking about it.
37:40 Yeah. I think that’s much different. US, UK. Much different. Yeah.
37:43 It’s not the first time we’ve heard that. We’ve definitely heard that before. And I do think about London Real in the shower now that I think about it. Um, London Real. You don’t think about Silicon?
37:51 No, I do Silicon Real too, as well. Yeah. But you, you have it running like a well-oiled machine. So Colin’s got that. Um, but, uh, and, and what’s an attribute that you think is positive for London, you know, if maybe the one you previously mentioned isn’t something that you bump into here all the time.
38:06 What’s something that you think is a, is a pro, uh, about, you know, the British vibe here when it comes to startups? Um, diversity, probably. Like, there’s a lot of diversity here, which I kind of really like. London is such a great city as well. Like, I really do think that London is a great place to have a business.
38:26 Um, because you’ve got so much access to everything. Um, you know, there’s some really kind of great tax breaks, all that sort of stuff. There’s infrastructure. I think that’s good. I think all that stuff is really cool.
38:36 Um, I just think we have to sort of improve the vibe, and kind of, I find it, I find it fascinating that lots of people who kind of come to interview at Mind Candy don’t really understand what a startup is, why a startup is different. Um, and I feel like that should sort of, in schools, you should kind of understand that entrepreneurship is an option. You should understand what it’s like to be in a company that’s kind of really new and, and interesting, and so on.
38:59 Um, and all that stuff has to kind of come in as well. Um, but yeah, I, London is a wonderful city, and I think that this, you know, is a great place to start a company as well as anywhere else. I mean, and I love the fact here that we don’t have, like, the, we have a talent war for certain staff, but it’s nowhere near as bad as it is in San Francisco, right? That’s rough, right? That’s rough.
39:19 Yeah. I wouldn’t want to enter into that. Um, we also have a studio in Brighton, and that’s a great place, too. That’s Silicon Beach. Okay.
39:26 I didn’t know these terms. I didn’t know about the beach. I knew about Silicon Hill. Hill. Okay.
39:30 I live in… You live out there? Yeah, or the dodgy end of Notting Hill. Yeah. Silicon Valley.
39:35 What, uh, uh, Colin, what am I missing here? Or, or am I missing anything? No, I think I think it’s incredible. I, I maybe you could touch on, I think, um, you know, you’re, you have a professional duty within a very entrepreneurial and fun sort of startup. How did you join Mind Candy?
39:52 Maybe talk a little bit about, and how did you sort of go through the university, you know, get your accounting, and then sort of end up at Mind Candy? I think it’s so inspiring to other people to say, you know, you can go get a degree, go get a professional designation, and still do the entrepreneurial thing. Yeah, my journey into Mind Candy is a really odd one as well. So, um, I left. So I was, I studied archaeology when I was at university.
40:20 Um, when I was a kid, my parents were really into, um, old houses and historic monuments, and all that sort of thing. So when I was a kid, we kind of spent a lot of, uh, our holidays in the UK with my grandparents. They’re amazing. Um, and yeah, we kind of did that whole thing, and I got really interested in history. So I studied history, went into archaeology at university, left university, still loved kind of history and old stuff.
40:43 So went to work in the antiques industry, and so want to work in the London Silver Vaults in Chancery Lane, which is like two flights underground. Uh, and it is like a proper bank vault. Um, and there are kind of all of these silver vaults under there, and it’s just like a consumer kind of silver buying place. You get lots of kind of very high wealth individuals kind of go and buy their silverware there, as you do. Um, and I really kind of got into the, the antique side of things.
41:07 Really kind of enjoyed that. And I had a great guy that I worked for who used to just kind of mentor me. He spent his time kind of like, I’m going to, I’m going to teach you, uh, that sort of thing. Loved it so much that I then moved into antique, um, furniture and interior design. Uh, went to run a studio, um, that kind of like a showroom over two floors in Pimlico Road in Chelsea.
41:27 Uh, and that was incredible, like the most amazing, um, we made the most amazing furniture. We worked with, uh, we did restoration work for kind of the Soane Museum and Horace Walpole’s house and Strawberry Hill. Uh, we, I mean, an amazing client list as well, kind of Madonna and Mick Jagger and all these other people that we did work for and worked with some really famous interior designers, like Kfax and Valor, and so on. So I absolutely loved working there.
41:51 It’s unbelievable. It’s just like amazing, kind of different every day. Um, but I kind of was really aware that this whole digital thing was happening, and I kind of really loved using the internet and so on. And the antiques interior design industry, low, is so low tech, it’s kind of scary, and they’re like, what’s a website, that sort of thing, and handwritten invoices and all that. And I just kind of thought, I really need to get into this digital thing, because this is going to be where this whole, where the world goes.
42:16 Um, saw a coded advert in the Guardian. Um, decoded it, sent my CV, went and met Michael when we were at Batsy, next to the cement works, and just so totally inspired by him, because he’s such a creative genius, and he just, he, he lives and breathes startups, and he’d already done a previous startup, firebox.com, from when he left university. Got on really well with him, and then started Mind Candy. I resigned after two days, because I kind of felt like it wasn’t really for me.
42:43 Couldn’t really understand why. And this is the thing, I was never taught about entrepreneurship or startups, or I didn’t really know that was an option. I was kind of like, you go into a bank, or you know, you go into kind of a big career sort of thing. Um, so it was kind of a really weird environment for me, and I didn’t really understand it, and Michael was horrified that I left after two days, cuz kind of we’d really got on, and so on, and he was like, you can’t leave.
43:04 So we met up in a pub, and he convinced me to come back. So it was the two of you at Mind Candy, or there were other people as well? I joined when it was about 15 people. Okay. You were hired as a CFO or COO or a different studio manager at the time, and then two days later you’re like, I’m not coming back.
43:17 You just, you left, or did you tell anyone? I decided not to go back, and I rang the then-COO and just was really cross. I was like, this is not what I signed up for. I was like, quite cross. Okay.
43:27 And why did, why did you go, too many hours? Too much craziness going on. Uh, kind of walked in, uh, like, they kind of, there was a desk, no computer, and I was like, okay, this is my, my desk. Um, there was a pile of papers that was the account, and they were like, there you go. Oh god.
43:44 And, uh, and just kind of chaos. Bit of an odd culture as well. Um, in the early days of Mind Candy, um, very technically focused, because there were a lot of devel, you know, kind of developers and so on. Um, you’d be sitting next to somebody, they’d Skype you instead of talking to you, and a very strange, and I’d come from a really customer-facing, uh, environment where you just talk to people all the time, and crazy. Um, yeah, but Michael, kind of, him being him, he had a lot of faith in me, um, which was interesting because I was so new.
44:14 Um, he was like, you know, let’s kind of build the culture together, and let’s really get this thing going. And this was Perplex City as well, which I did, and didn’t understand, as a, I kind of got it and thought it was a really interesting idea, but it wasn’t something that I would want to play, as a kind of game. Um, so when we switched on to Moshi, I was much happier, because I was just, you know, I was like, I would play that. I’m a big kid. I would play that.
44:37 Um, so yeah, so did that during my time kind of, uh, as studio manager, doing the accounts. I was also Michael’s EA for a time, which was fun. Um, uh, I did my accounting qualification whilst I was doing all this stuff as well, at Mind Candy, because I really wanted to kind of continue to be the financial person, but felt a duty to the company that I’d be qualified. Um, and did a part-time HR qualification during that time, because I took on the HR stuff.
45:00 I used to do the legal stuff as well during that time. Um, I was involved in product, kind of giving product. I mean, I was kind of like involved in all of it. Um, just trying to build the bits that kind of Michael was kind of one flavor, and I was the other, the other side of that, and that was it. Just absolutely loved it from 15 all the way kind of to where we are today.
45:18 Have really loved building it. It’s been amazing. Um, and if, I god forbid, when this all kind of ends, um, uh, in a positive way, uh, I will go into another startup again. I’d do it again. Just love it so much.
45:33 Wow, that’s a great story. And in, uh, in 5 years from now, where, where will Moshi be? Like, what, what will we be seeing? Where will we see it? Will there be Moshi cars, or what’s the evolution?
45:45 Self-driving cars by Moshi. Moshi. Yeah. Um, it will be an evergreen brand, much like, um, the Disney brands, you know, the brands you’ve seen for tens of years. Um, it will be, uh, it will still be very much front of mind.
45:59 There will be lots of Moshi content. It will be on mobiles, tablet devices. There will still be physical product. Um, there’ll be kind of more animated content as well. I think there’ll still be music.
46:10 It’ll still be a massive entertainment franchise. It will just be reinvented as devices change. Um, as kind of the story evolves, it will continue evolving, and we’ll keep it as an evergreen brand, because it’s kind of the jewel in our crown, and, really, um, I also think there’s a generational element to Moshi that will be really interesting. You know, as the people who grew up with it, you know, that’s five years ago. A lot of them are kind of entering, they’re going to enter their 20s.
46:34 Uh, as they get a bit older, they can pass it on to their kids, and it will become a generational brand as well, which I think will be fascinating. And Mind Candy then will have other brands that it started that are just amazing. We have a boy brand we’re creating at the moment, which I mentioned, which is going to be amazing. Um, we’re developing a communication platform, which is also IP-based, and that’s an amazing IP as well. So we’ll be kind of, we’ll have multiple brands in our portfolio.
46:57 Um, and we’ll just keep going and keep providing really amazing entertainment. I like it. Moshi world. Um, Divinia, I’m gonna ask you the question I ask everyone who sits there, and I’m gonna hit you with it. If you could make a phone call to the 20-year-old Divinia and give that young lady a bit of advice, what would you tell her?
47:13 Um, I would tell her that the next 10 years would be, we’re going to be really, really hard work, but we’re going to be so rewarding that, I, that just keep working hard and stick at it and don’t lose faith, because some startups are really difficult, right? You have moments of huge elation, and especially as Moshi’s been so successful, riding that wave is unbelievable. You sort of pinch yourself sometimes. You’re like, am I still part of this oh my goodness.
47:39 Um, but some of it is really hard. We mentioned about, kind of, having to let people go, and sometimes there are financial issues, and all of that sort of stuff. So, it’s really tough, and I think it would be quite easy sometimes to just think, oh, you know, this is too hard. I’m not sure about this. I’m not sure how, kind of, I can do this.
47:56 But it’s so rewarding. Such a wonderful thing to do. That I would just say, stick with it. Keep going. Work really hard.
48:02 Sometimes they’re going to be really tough, but you’ll get through it, and you’ll love it. Good thoughts. Um, second part of that question is, what’s the best advice you’ve ever received? Um, best advice I’ve ever received, um, is about the people function, um, is that you should always, always strive to hire amazing people and never settle for somebody that you really don’t believe hits your bar. You should always strive to hire the best people.
48:28 Even if it takes you longer, you should hire the best people, because ultimately businesses are about the people that are in those businesses. And I really believe that’s the way you create something amazing and something great. Last part of that is to the 20-year-old listening, who could be in China or America or Brazil. Um, what advice do you give to them if they want to, you know, get into the tech startup business? Have confidence, and also, find, if you’re kind of going into somebody else’s startup, it has to be something that you really believe in in your soul, because this is the other thing I’ve kind of seen people come into Mind Candy as well, and they just want to work in a startup, but you have to really want to work in that startup, and you have to really believe in the mission of that startup.
49:07 So, I’d say either start your own thing and don’t be scared and have confidence, or if you’re going into somebody else’s startup, it has to be something that you care about in your soul. That’s, that’s the advice I’d give. And is it okay to go work for the man first, or to go work for, you know, a corporation, or, you know, in the antique industry, and then go into a startup if you want to. I had a wonderful time in the antiques industry. That’s, you know, I mean, that particularly is a very interesting industry to be in, because you learn so much.
49:33 But if you know, there are multiple routes into startups. You can go into it straight. You can go into it via a different route. You know, any way in is good. I, I just think that, you know, if you’re, if you’re going into something else first, you’ll learn a lot to go in with.
49:45 If you’re going into a startup, you have to be prepared for the fact that you might not be mentored, etc. They might just, trying to be, trying to move really, really fast, and you might have to just learn as you go and not be worried about that. Um, but either way, I think it’s absolutely justified. Yeah. Okay.
49:59 I think that’s it for us. Did I, did I miss anything? I think we covered everything. It’s great. Um, I’m super impressed.
50:05 I don’t know about you, but, uh, blown away. Yeah, that was great. If I was, uh, Michael, I would make sure you hold on to Divinia, because someone might want to take her away from you. So, oh, thank you. Well, that’s very kind of you, but I, I’m not going anywhere.
50:19 I absolutely love Mind Candy, and I do believe in the vision in my soul. So, I’m not going anywhere. And that’s after eight years, which is… Do you have a Mind Candy tattoo? No.
50:27 But not to say that… not to say that it won’t happen. Okay. Okay. That’s fantastic. How do people get a hold of you?
50:35 Um, I am Divinia on Twitter. That’s probably the easiest way. So, DM me, okay? And if they want to come work for Mind Candy, you guys are hiring. You’re always hiring.
50:43 We’re always hiring, and we always look for exceptional people. So, contact me, or, um, email [email protected]. Uh, or just, you know, we’re in Bournehill Street. You could come by if you wanted, if you felt like it. But yeah, just hit us up.
50:56 We have great opportunities at Mind Candy. I’m going to come by and use the slide. Oh, do at some point. I would like to use the slide. Yeah.
51:02 Lawyers, accountants, they’ve all been down the slide. It’s, yeah, it’s not limited to kids. It’s everybody. Okay. And if I want to play Moshi Monsters, what’s the best way?
51:10 Go on to, uh, you know, the iTunes store or Google app, or how do people find? So, you can go on the web, and it’s moshimonsters.com. Uh, or you can download Moshi Village, which is our newest app in the App Store, which is just so beautiful and amazing. Um, and over 10,000 kids have reviewed it. They all give it 4.5 and above.
51:27 It’s amazing. So, yeah, either way, go either way. You know, you stole our tagline there at Silicon Real. You say it’s about the people. You know, you just said that’s what Moshi’s about.
51:35 And it’s really true. It’s just, it’s so nice to have you come in here and just see your passion kind of bubble out of you, you know, when it comes to this company, because that’s what this stuff is all about, having all that crazy passion, you know, and skills on top of it. So, thanks for coming in and representing the community. Um, it was big. Um, if you’re listening to us on iTunes, you can catch us and our beautiful faces on YouTube channel Silicon Real.
51:55 Um, please, uh, subscribe, and, uh, follow us on Twitter at Silicon Real. Um, anything else going on? No, we’re, you know, we’re doing great, and a few people have reached out to us to help out. So, keep them coming. Uh, again, we’re, we’re doing this for you guys, and, and the more people that help, the better it’s going to be.
52:13 So, great. And yeah, if, uh, have ideas of who else should be on the show, then please, uh, tweet them to us. And, uh, we’re going to keep doing this. We’ve been picked up for our third season now by YouTube. And, uh, yeah, we’re going to keep doing this every week, and, uh, just, yeah, giving you the people of the scene.
52:26 So, uh, Divinia, thanks so much for being here, and, uh, all the best. Thank you very much. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Cool. All right.
52:35 Take care. Datch means date.
