Full transcript: Andrew Tarver on London Real
0:00 In London, technology is the silicone roundabout. Introducing a new talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. Silicon Real. Each week, interviewing entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, financial technology, accelerators and incubators in an exciting three-person format. Learn about the people behind the innovation.
0:31 Locally filmed, locally sourced. Silicon Real. It’s about the people. This is Silicon Real, the weekly talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. I’m Brian Rose. I also host London Real.
0:48 It’s a same studio, slightly different show, right? We kind of have like a little bit more unique individuals on, not all tech. We had the guys from Vice Media media. Last week, thanks to you for that introduction. Canadian Mafia. Yeah, Canadian Mafia introduction. We had Matt Alec. He’s been there for 12 years. Crazy to hear the story. They were a punk magazine in Montreal in 1994. Now they’re getting billion, two billion plus valuations from guys like Time Warner, Rupert Murdoch. You know, it’s weird. It’s almost like Manchurian Candidate.
1:15 Like the left is quoting the right, is quoting the left. Don’t get me started with that. I hope they stay independent though. Yeah, I know. And this week we’ve got a UK performance poet, hip-hop artist, Scroobius Pip. He’s very cool. Check his videos out. Man, he’s an original.
1:28 His beard is about this long, longer than Andrew’s and he’s a very interesting guy. So check that out at Londonreel.tv. But today we’re here to talk tech. My co-host is entrepreneur Colin Pyle running Crew Cafe. You’re just, what are you, you’re doing it, right?
1:42 Busy, busy, busy. Yeah. No, everything’s going really well, man. I’m off to the US next week for a few weeks. That’ll be, that’ll be fun. I haven’t been stateside in a while. So see, see some friends and family do a little bit of business. And yeah, take it from there. I think things are busy. All right. Yeah, you’re tired. Yeah, sleep in the plane. Yeah, we’ll try to function without you. We’re gonna have a couple, you know, just temporary cohosts. And yeah, definitely come back. I’m gonna like come back and be like, fuck are you?
2:06 All right. Anyways, all right. On with the show. Our guest today is Mr. Andrew Tarver, who is the founder of bold rocket, a startup focused on enabling the people revolution.
2:18 And I want to hear about this. You guys provide expertise, guidance, funding, and delivery structure to organizations that you believe are at the heart of this revolution. Before this, you were the CEO of Capco, which is a global financial services consultancy, which owns Bold Rocket. And before that, you spent time in the city. You were at Accenture, UBS, that kind of thing.
2:40 You have a brand new office on Great Eastern Street. I was there, what, three, four weeks ago? It’s stunning. It’s next to the Hawkson Hotel. You got to check it out.
2:47 You guys have your own soapbox in the basement and you guys give talks where people can come over and kind of give their opinions. There’s one of you talking on Vimeo. Andrew, thanks so much for being here. Welcome to Silicon Real. Thank you for having me.
3:01 It’s a good in show, right? Yeah. I’m getting known for my interviews. Has someone ever edited all of them together? I think it’s only in the last few months I’ve been getting kind of good, you know?
3:09 I gotta make sure I don’t go too radio announcer, you know, on it, but we’ll watch that. Very polished. You know, yeah, not too polished. It’s a fine line between too long but informative. Yeah, and then the echo of the radio guys.
3:20 So our slogan here is, it’s about the people. And I think we should get your story, because it seems like your story and the story of Bull Rocket are the same story. And I was wondering if you could just tell us about you, the last five years, and what brought you to now and to Bull Rocket. Yeah, it’s a long journey. So the people bit is a very personal thing.
3:45 So I can’t remember actually I told you the story when we met at the new office. About seven years ago, I lost one of my nieces. So very young congenital heart, well, congenital disorders and some second niece that passed away. And being an uncle who’s kind of stupid and you make kind of stupid uncle comments when she was in our final couple of days, I said to her, I’d do something that would change the world for her. And that was kind of my commitment.
4:15 And I kind of ignored that as a couple of months went past and a couple of years went past. And then I kind of reflected on a comment that some of my mates made in the pub, and I only see my mates, I don’t know, once a year, probably Christmas Eve in the pub. They all trundle in with wives, if they have to, and kids if they have to. And we sit and catch up about the year. And most of them say, you seem to have done pretty well. You know, life seems good.
4:40 But you’re working kind of financial services, and you’ve done fuck all for me. And it’s a bit of a joke, a bit of a laugh. And about three years ago, it started to bug me, really bug me, of actually I have done nothing. And I looked at Capco’s slogan, and the big boss, Ross, it says, form in the future of finance. And I look at myself, and I think, what is success?
4:59 Is success the car you drive, the watch you wear, the house you live in, et cetera? Or is it the impact you make on people around you? And I just changed everything that I thought about, which was it wasn’t about the algorithmic trading platforms. It wasn’t about all the things you can do for the big investment banks. It was actually applying some of the technology, some of the logic, some of the thinking to how you democratize that to everyone else.
5:19 So that my mates who are the butchers, the bakers and the candlestick makers, when I go home go, you did something that really changed my life. And that started Bold Rocket as in just as a concept, which is how do we design something that allows the people to take over? And the revolution I talk about from the people revolution is corporates for decades, generations have exploited. And what I mean by exploited, They’ve created products and services to make a profit.
5:43 There’s nothing wrong with that, that’s corporate life. But it’s we are consumers, we consume whatever they produce, products and services, and we pay and they make money. Some of the companies exploit, some of them exploit less, and people choose who they want to use. I’m an absolute believer that over the next couple of years, it’ll probably be five or ten realistically, the pace at which this world works, that the people revolution is going to be where the corporates become the consumers.
6:10 The corporates will have to consume what we want, our data, our thoughts, our aspirations, our goals, our needs. And therefore you’ve got a complete flip of where we are today in an economic model. And actually how can I facilitate the people revolution where people actually start to say, I don’t want that product, I want this product and I want this service. And if you can’t provide it, someone else will give it to me. And how do I get those companies who can provide that and really understand the needs of an individual to make their life better, how can I make that come true?
6:38 How can I facilitate that? How can I put effort behind it, join together companies that are doing it, big or small? It doesn’t matter. It’s not about just startups. It’s about open-mindedness.
6:49 But most of the startups are the ones who are open-minded at the moment. The corporates are trying to catch up, trying to play. And that’s what I kind of do. And it’s kind of hard to describe what Bold Rocket is apart from making that little promise come true. It is hard to describe.
7:02 And when you put those blanket statements out there, people are probably like, what’s going on here? You know, is this Marxism or is this that? How long did you formulate this whole idea because you had to put it down on paper, but you had to basically sell it to your former boss to create this whole company and this idea, right? Yeah. It kind of, it forms in your mind.
7:19 Nothing, you don’t wake up one morning and go, I’m going to do this. There’s something that’s chipping away at promises you make and things, commitments you’ve made to people and comments people make to you. It all really came about probably three and a half years ago. There was a thing called MBNK. MBNK was a…
7:34 A monoline insurer or something, right? No, it was a new bank, it was meant to stand for new bank and it was a set of N, B, N, K. And it was trying to buy the assets of Lloyd’s bank, so Lloyd’s, RBS and other banks because of the 2008, 2007 situation have to go through this divestment that the government are pushing. So Lloyd’s had to get rid of 632 branches and 5.5 million customers and a private equity vehicle set up this structure to say actually we’ll acquire it and we’ll build something new, a new bank. And we were behind a lot of the thinking with a great guy called Gary Hoffman, Lord Levine, Sir David Walker, who’s now the chairman of Barclays, as the board.
8:18 And then the rest of a group of us basically said, how do you design a new bank? And what we did is said, actually, I have no idea how you build a retail bank. All my life’s been derivative trading, algo trading. But we said, actually, solid. We know that technology.
8:30 So let’s work out why that wouldn’t work for the end customer. And how do you democratize an outgoing trading platform essentially and we sat there and you know Gary, Peter, David all thought we were absolutely mad you know for three months they were just like can you go back to building a proper bankers and one that gives us 20% return is recognisable we don’t want any of this innovation crap and we just persisted and said actually if you understand an individual and you’ve got mass personal data and you actually then start to say there’s loads of companies out there that are opening APIs and you’ve got digital offerings, digital products, digital services I can hook into, you stick a lot of algorithms in the middle and you can start to make decisions for an individual as you learn about them.
9:12 So rather than having mass transaction and risk data and market data with algorithms making decisions, you have personal data and open data, APIs that are about you, about other products and services and you stick algorithms in and the algorithms are essentially the startups. The startups are creating things which is logic to solve little bits of life, little bits of things that are shit, detraction points, bits where no one else is giving you a good product or where big corporates are exploiting you, and all we’re doing is saying if you’ve got a startup and you’ve got stuff that can do it, we’ve built a platform that now allows you to access those APIs, those systems, et cetera, and what we’re also doing is hooking into big corporates, so we’ve also opened up APIs of the big corporates to say actually if you want to process a transaction through a bank, we know a bank who can do it.
9:56 If you want to go to a retail organization and be able to process, we know one there, pharmaceuticals, et cetera, opening their big systems up, big insurance companies with claims platforms that the startups don’t have access to, and then visualizing it in a really simple way for people to go, actually, that’s what I do next, that’s what I do next. That’s all I wanna try and do, because that one day will land in the hands of my mates in the pub, and they won’t say, what the fuck have you been doing for the last 20 years of your life? Hopefully.
10:23 Is the information revolution parallel to the people’s revolution, or do you really think you need to be pushing the people’s part of it because it’s not necessarily going to track the freedom of information. Yeah, so there’s loads of things that need to capture. One is, we are being exploited massively at the moment around our personal data. So there are five or six big organizations out there that are making billions, because they’ve got ahead with the infrastructure, they know what they’re doing, and they’re collecting bits of information about us, and they’re selling it to the old dinosaurs, the big corporates.
10:52 So there’s got to be an open-mindedness around what do we do with our data. We’re at this brilliant fork in the road of, Do I just let all my data be free and therefore never worry about security apart from potentially piracy and other things that could happen to, you know, my data? Or do I try and lock it down so it’s very, very secure but then open up a massive world of cybercrime? And it’s kind of like we’re sitting there on the fence with no idea which way to go.
11:17 We’re being dumb about it. Because in the mass population who are digital, 2 billion people have got no idea what to do with it. But there are some very smart, a very small number of smart firms who are starting to exploit and use that. Oh we’re not going to use your data but we are because that’s where our profits come from. So the personal data bit is a massive problem. The second is the digitization of any existing SME corporate or business is a massive problem. Big companies can spend money on building digital capability, so access points, APIs etc. The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, the gardener etc, the cleaner, don’t sit there with a digital capability. They have a mobile phone so how can we use technology to access them and say actually could you help with this, could you provide a quote, could you do it. How do you bring them into this kind of ecosystem? How do you allow people to have more of a digital interaction? Get rid of the yellow pages, get rid of the kind of only the word of mouth and use your social community to create an interaction which becomes digital but make it really easy for me to know what I do next. So what’s bugging me, what’s playing on my mind, what haven’t I done and can something do it for me? Can someone help me, can Someone asked my community, can we look for the rated numbers?
12:23 Can we put the quote out there? So going back to the algorithmic trading platform, can I file a request to get a response in the background to then say, actually, now execute on that? Booking time, getting things done, getting shit in my house done, in my life that I don’t have time for. And then actually, how do you create that more digital community? We live in a really non-digital world based on the interactions of tradesmen, et cetera.
12:47 How’d you create something that was a bit more digital and take them on the journey? drive products for them, make it easier for them as well, but also make it really easy for the every end to end customer like myself, like you guys. What do you think? Yeah, I love it man, I think there are these gaps of people sort of in society that are missing out on this ride. And I think to be honest, it’s actually the majority of people when you open it up and expand it outside of city centers like London and you go wider and developing countries and there are these people that are absolutely getting exploited and not controlling our data.
13:24 And then you have guys that, like me, I’m pretty technical and I’m still getting exploited with my data, right? I don’t know exactly what’s happening to it and I’m definitely not making money on it. So it’s like, how far away are we from downloading an app where it actually pays you, right? I don’t know, is it five years, is it 10 years or is it never, right? I think this is a pivotal moment that sort of you talk about and it’s time for us.
13:49 To sort of take advantage, because I think if we miss out on this next couple of years where there’s like this pivotal change, that we may never be able to come back and get control of it. So you’ve got the space on Greater Eastern Street. You’ve got capital behind you. You’ve got good people. What do you want it to look like in the next year?
14:08 I mean, you’re not specifically an incubator by any means. You’re not trying to take equity stakes here. What do you want it to be, kind of like a think tank of people coming together with the right ideas? What does it look like say in a year or two from now? There’s two ways I try and use analogies all the time none of them work, but I’ll go again, and I’ll probably Create another one as I go along First of all it’s a patchwork quilt So there are lots of different companies that need to come together that need to be joined together in the right way It’s not about individual greatness It’s about the collective and the collective is the big companies and it is the small companies and it is the stitching that brings them together that’s why I don’t know what the patchwork quilt looks like and no one does when you start one but it’s going to be useful because it’s going to at the end they’ll have a use when you bring them all together I want to form a new thing it’s not an industry because industries are the old dynamics that everyone talks about and those lines of blurred completely it’s about making it easier for me to live my life and we came up with the purpose of bold rocket and we pissed about for ages with what are we about what are we trying to do and actually very simply put all All I’m trying to do is make life a little bit more wonderful for people.
15:16 Now I would love to make life a little bit more wonderful for my niece, but I can’t. So how do I make it wonderful for other people based on the promise I made? And that goes to the heart of everything. I’m not going to try and make life wonderful for everyone, a little bit more wonderful. So what are the bits of life, the detraction points, the bits that piss people off?
15:33 How can I make their lives easier? So one of the things we’re trying to do, just in the background, nothing to do with any corporate thing is last year I had shit year as in really didn’t enjoy it went through a really bad patch but loads of people do and I found out that one in five one in six people in the UK suffer from mental health disorders at some point in their lives and actually suicide is the biggest killer of 16 to 14 year old males in the UK yeah I didn’t know that you told me that yeah so what age group sorry 16 to 40 year old males the biggest killer is suicide more than heart disease cancer road traffic everything drinking or Yeah, and no one really knows that and I never knew it. Why the hell do we let people kill themselves, our friends? Because their life isn’t wonderful by definition of they’re killing themselves. So we’re doing something in the background with a couple of MIT guys and other guys to say, actually, is there some technology out there that can spot the signs of someone going through a period of kind of stress, depression, anxiety, mental health to degradation by using voice tone, by using patterns of behaviour, by using different things and actually allow someone to track themselves but it’s not about tracking yourself because I would have ignored it. I would have just turned it off and said I don’t want to know that because it’s going to make me even more stressed. Go against the whole Facebook
16:49 Mentality of I’ve got 500 friends, bollocks have, I’ve got three or four friends and if those three or four friends knew that I was in trouble and knew that they needed to be there for me, they would be there for me because that’s what they are. That’s That’s the true definition of a friend. So how can we put those bits of technology into saying, actually, my aim is to get suicide in the UK to 16 to 40-year-olds, for males to zero. That’s a great ambition.
17:10 Will I do it in my lifetime? I don’t know. But when Bill Gates said that he was going to solve malaria or get rid of malaria, he’s only two countries away from it now. Now, he’s got a little bit more money than me, but I don’t think he’s got any more passion. And actually, that’s what this is all about, which is I’m determined to make life a little bit more wonderful for people and I’m sure there’s loads of people out there who go that resonates with me because one in five feel the same I’m sure one in five know someone who’s been through it and actually when I thought back on the stat of how many people kill themselves I know someone who’s killed himself and I never thought to myself God that’s a problem but then I’ve spoke to lots of other people and they can link to someone who’s been through that so solving that it’s not about banking it’s not about just making money it’s not about all those kind of things that’s not life anymore it’s about actually doing something which materially makes a difference to some people’s lives.
17:58 My commitment is none of my community are going to kill themselves. What a fantastic way to track that too. You think about where Google Plus watches everything that you do. But if it tracks that you’re not going out anymore, you’re not communicating with people, you’re not even making phone calls, maybe your texts have dropped off, I mean all these signs that could be red flags that normally are the opposite of monitoring. Like you had, everyone else is usually telling everyone how they feel on Facebook.
18:20 No one’s going to say, I’m feeling suicidal today. And it’s interesting that a lot of the charities we work with around this said that males, the reason why it’s males, because males when they want to kill themselves, kill themselves. The females, there’s more of a tablet, pill, cry for help. Males are right. I’m going to run into it.
18:39 I’m going to drive into a tree at 120 miles an hour. I’m going to slit my throat. I’m going to put a knife into my heart. Kind of suicide. It’s like, okay, that’s pretty serious.
18:46 And you’ve got to get the trigger point, which is generally 30 minutes before suicide. That person makes that decision to do it. And that’s that big red button. So one of the things with this thing is called help, and you want to know when that big red button is being pressed that someone can be there for you, because that’s when you need your friend the most. You don’t want to get them to get that point, but that’s one of like 40 things we’re doing.
19:05 So I think when you came in, we said we had nine things on the go. I actually, after that, I went back again, I think I made that nine up in terms of that was nine about four weeks ago, we’ve got 41 different things we’re doing like that. Some of them are very financial services, because that’s where we come from. half of them are nothing to do with that. We talk about the innovator’s dilemma, it comes here all the time.
19:25 You’re almost kind of trying to get a step ahead of the innovator’s dilemma. I think you told your chairman, Rob Hebert, that you were effectively trying to put him out of business in the long run, right? Because he’s got the old school business model, you’ve got the new school. So because we come into it all the time, we were talking about this yesterday, right? With the banks and how the banks aren’t going to innovate.
19:43 We were all in banking and we know that they won’t do it until the last minute and then they won’t even do it then and then they’ll try to buy someone. And so we see them trying to do it with some of these incubators, and we see it kind of working, kind of not working. You’re trying to really take it by the horns and try to come at it in an opposite way. And everyone’s trying to find out what you are, right? Everyone’s trying to put a name on something, I guess like you’re saying, an industry is something that already exists.
20:07 What do you think of all the incubators that kind of come up, or a lot of the management consultants that put offices in shortage, and you know, how does the old school industry even make sense of what’s going on in tech right now? So it’s interesting, I was asked this by a magazine a couple of days ago, a less direct question I suppose. For me, FinTech incubators or accelerators are there to make money. That’s their job. As in, if you ask their why, they want to make money. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s the same way you look at corporates before, what are they on the planet for, to make money. My ambition is not to make money. Stupid, and I’m sure my boss at some point when he watches this will go, what the hell did you say that Right. You have big rent bills. Yeah, as in someone else. I’m not sure who. Wait till we get to that bit, but it’s kind of I’m not trying to say I want you to be successful so I can be successful I want companies to be successful so we start to change the way that we live We start to challenge some of the big corporates because when you get you know Your point of banks will finally change at the end when they have to If we can get to the point of making them change quicker broker, that’s to the benefit of everyone. We can make all the corporate environment, the Industrial Revolution organizations, because that’s what they were. They were built around the Industrial Revolution and the whole philosophy of that. The Internet Revolution was another
21:27 Channel on top of that. And actually, those organizations which have been more successful in that kind of era, the Facebooks, the Googles, Amazons, et cetera, are actually just feeding off the Industrial Revolution weaknesses or feeding off their profits because they’re selling products to them. The People Revolution part is much more of the makers will make make, they will use their data and other people’s data in a trust model which allows them to say this is what we want and if you don’t give it, as I said, if you don’t give it to us, we’ll basically do it ourselves. We’ll find someone and startups will appear that start to solve those problems that the corporates refuse to solve or just can’t. You’ve got to just appreciate that that model is going to happen but the incubator is there to make the people revolution happen or make themselves rich. They make themselves rich. We’ve got to have a model where we say, yes, the incubators have got a space, they’ve got a purpose, I get it. Some of us need to come together and say, how can I help someone without actually having any self-interest? And when you said before, I don’t take a percentage of anyone, I don’t want to take a percentage, why should I? It’s someone else’s idea. Just make it happen, make it real. Give them whatever you can, blood, sweat and tears, advice, room, space, support, infrastructure, steal a bit of infrastructure from this, give it
22:39 There, loads of people have got spare infrastructure, but don’t say I’ll do it if you give me 15%. Now the dilemma I’ve had, which has been bizarre but enlightening, is a lot of startups don’t trust you unless you ask for something. A lot of people don’t trust you unless you ask for something. This sounds too good to be true, right? This goes to the core of what trust is.
23:01 Trust is about credibility, reliability, and intimacy, so closeness, all divided by self-interest. self-interest, you know, algorithmic background, there has to be a formula in something. Yeah, Jesus. So credibility, have you been it, have you done it? Do you have experience?
23:16 Reliability, did you do what you said you would do? And did you stick to it? Intimacy, how close am I to really understand you and really know you? And self-interest is what are you trying to get out of this? And when someone comes in with zero self-interest, people are a little bit scared.
23:30 When you come in with a tiny bit, it actually kind of strengthens. If you put zero at the bottom of the algorithm, you’re gonna get zero of the whole thing, of the sum. If you put a 1 in there and it’s kind of a low self-interest, it’s not damaging the model too much. The bigger that gets, yes, it does undermine the trust. You’ve got to have a little bit of self-interest in it. My self-interest is based on a promise I made and based on an ambition to be able to say in a pub, I’ve done something. That’s it.
23:53 It’s not monetary. I’m also a big believer in the karma thing, which is if I do a good thing for one person, it’s going to come back to me. And that’s happened in the last three months massively. I help someone, they recommend me to four other places who say that. You went to the funding point, people keep coming to me saying, can I give you money, can I give you money, can you do this for me, can you? And that’s all based on me actually just trying to help someone and someone going, they really helped. If you really help someone goes, oh, can you really help these? Or why would I really help these? They’re not doing what I want to do, which is move the world on. Here’s some cash. Okay, that pays a rent.
24:23 Right. So it’s happening. I believe that. I mean, we’ve all felt it in this space when you start giving positive energy out, especially in the tech space, like that feedback loop is super fast and people feel that energy. But how do you sell that business model to your chairman, Rob Havert? He obviously trusts you. There must be an intimacy formula there as well.
24:41 Yeah, and I think, go back, credibility. Absolutely. Real liability. I’ve always done what I’ve said. I’m very close to him, so he gets how I work. He’s an entrepreneur who doesn’t need to work too much. He sees the ambition and passion I’ve got in me, and I’m not really self-interested. I don’t walk to them and say I want to be paid loads but I also want to get this space and I want some freedom and I want this. I say actually there’s some things I need to give up in order to have the space to do this and this. So I was the CEO of Capco like you said in the UK and I gave it up and I said actually I could keep the title, I could walk around saying yeah you know big job, lots of responsibility. I didn’t need that. What I wanted is a space to create something new again. I wanted the space to meet people. When you do a bigger job you don’t have any time because everyone crushes your diary with meetings which are administrative. When you actually got a bit of freedom, you can just spend time listening to people. And actually the best part of living and breathing shortage is you’re just going to meet great people. They knock at your door, they take pictures of the rocket in the window, and they’re like, hey, what are you doing?
25:43 How can you help? And they’re like, hey, just kind of sit here. We’ve got three or four of the Bitcoin startups sitting in our building now. Why? Because they didn’t have anyone else to sit. So it’s like, just go sit upstairs. Now, I’m sure at some point I’m going to get full. It’s like Noah’s Ark, I can only go two by two. But Rob, it was an easy conversation.
26:02 I flew to New York about a year and a half ago and said to him, you’ve got the simple choice. I can give you 100% guarantee that I’ll give you a 20 million return in an old consulting model or give me a one in 100 chance of finding a billion pound idea. And I said, What was the choice? And he said, both, like I knew he would. And I said, both, not the option.
26:25 A or B? And he said B. And I said, if it was A, I’m out of here. But you said B, now let me do it. And he sticks to his word.
26:34 Because he knows there is a 99% chance I’ll screw it up, but there’s a 1% chance that I’ll change the industry. And if I change the industry, he’s also achieved what he wanted, which was to form the future of finance. And what’s it been like the last few months, you said, when you’re going out there not asking for things and people finally understand you’re serious, it’s weird, that’s when people want to start giving you things. Have you been surprised by how much people want to give you, whether it’s financing or come work with you or help you out because you seem to be just helping other people out?
27:03 Yeah, I’m not surprised because if you help someone they want to help you kind of thing because I’m stunned it hasn’t happened before in terms of what has prevented it from happening over the last five years when I wasn’t doing it as in it’s as if you just kind of like shine the light and gone wow it’s all here because the brains are there the companies are there the attitudes there the funding’s there it’s just not being joined up it’s in the stitching is in there’s all the patchwork quilt all the bits of material are sitting around there’s no one’s just stitching it together so it’s been it’s been eye-opening there’s been a lot of time get spent with people who want to talk to you about stuff which you’re whoa really you’ve given up your job for that at some point you have to make a decision and say no you can’t come in here right yeah well Connie everyone can come in as in that’s fine for now not everyone can stay that long have you had to kick people out at some point you will no I just walked somewhere else in the building that’s the advantage of having five floors and lots of locks you know where you can hide there’s some secret rooms but no it’s kind of it you get people come into you saying I know here’s loads of money can you do stuff And you’re like, well, A, I don’t want your money because I know that I don’t understand your motivation.
28:16 And I don’t know, I can’t guarantee a return. I met a great startup the day it came to me, or came to us because we met them and they said, we’re building an algorithm around the potential to identify good startups versus less good. So what’s the success criteria? What’s the secret source? Using public and non-public data to basically build that.
28:37 And actually then, on the back of it, potentially be able to other things, indexes, et cetera. It’s a fascinating idea because it’s kind of, it’s like the secret source, so we’re trying to spend some time with them, have a conversation, what can we do? Brilliant guy, really intelligent, and that’s the kind of stuff the industry wants, which is, what is that secret source? It’s not because I wanna invest in any of the things that are gonna make a massive return.
28:58 I wanna say, actually, these are the things you need to be doing that you’re not. These are the first two or three things. Go away and do it. Work with us and we’ll help you do it. Because that gets them to change, and if we get them to be successful, we are gonna scare the living daylights out of the corporates and we’ll make them change.
29:11 Are you already scaring them? They’re ignoring us. People must be wondering what you’re doing a little bit. Yeah, so we found, the idea is to find a couple of open-minded organizations in the industries we wanna play. So financial services, straight away you go, right.
29:26 There must be a bank out there, not an investment bank, because they’d be on repair. Like a retail bank, you mean? Yeah, a retail bank. So you go to a retail bank and you say, come on. Based on the MB&K model of building out what that new model could be, find a bank who really is open-minded and said, actually, go do, go build, go find a way of making this come alive and hopefully you’ll be successful.
29:45 If you’re not, it’s not the end of the world because we’re not asking for huge amounts of money. And then you say, actually, we’re doing some work with them and you go, where else do you wanna go next? So insurance, insurance is there to be blown up and rebuilt and redesigned, it’s a stupid model. Huge, it’s ridiculous. Yeah, we were bitching about real estate yesterday but insurance is right behind it.
30:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And healthcare made mine. Healthcare, but everyone’s on healthcare at the moment, you know, even Apple, with all the kind of health stuff they’re doing. But kind of looking at it, going, where else do you go? And the answer is you can go anywhere.
30:16 Because so many things in our lives are crap, and real distraction points, and really painful. And if you actually design, we design this based on human interaction and paper, and everyone’s trying to now build a digital world on top of that, scrap those processes. That’s why startups are successful, because they don’t start with the infrastructure the legacy that all the big corporates have and you say actually what is the infrastructure I want to build off I want to build off a digital interaction but that only extends so far because a large proportion of the world doesn’t have that digital capability yet so you have to think about it in a stepping stones what are those kind of leapfrog moments how’d you get from there to there to there to there and just planning that out with them saying you’re going to do it too far you’re trying to get too far you’ll fail because no one can adopt what you’re doing come back a few steps and find that point you know In a great example, Square, who would have thought that plugging a little bit of plastic into the bottom of your phone would be the thing that beat NFC?
31:06 NFC never got here. So all these companies that are building around NFC being here two, three years ago and you’re looking at Square, multi-billion dollar valuation company now with a bit of plastic in the bottom of your phone that you swipe a card through. Right, credit card process. So that was the very incremental tiny step to take away credit cards are dead. Well, they’re not.
31:24 Credit cards are still here. They’re still in our pocket four years later. Square’s built business because NFC hasn’t come out yet because of security and technology lots of things. You’ve got to take the tiny steps through an industry rather than going I aspire to be out here. Aspiration is great, business reality is increment, but knowing your journey. And that’s all I’m trying to help with, which is I want you to be successful.
31:45 Don’t shoot there. If you shoot there, you’ve got a one in a thousand chance of making it and changing the world. If you shoot here, you’ve got a one in ten chance of making it and then having a leapfrog moment and a leapfrog moment and a leapfrog moment if you can be bothered. Your Twitter your Twitter feed says to sell is evil. What does that mean?
32:01 That’s a bold statement. It’s a bold rocket so I think selling people trying to sell creates a a Negative vibe in a conversation if I go and speak to anyone and try and sell them something and there’s a self interest There’s that thing of I’ve got to do some I’m trying to get something to you to tell someone passionately about what you’re trying to Do which may end up in someone using a product or service? It’s actually, it’s the truth, it’s the bond, it’s the relationship, it’s the intimacy, it’s building that trust.
32:31 People go in and I hate people who say to me, I’m a salesman. Does anyone go, oh yeah, I love salesmen, I’ve got loads of those as friends? Whether it be, you know, stay agents selling houses, they’re not, they’re just shuffling paper. Whether it be recruitment consultants selling you a job. None of these are, you know, top of our friendship have a bigger list.
32:48 So to me, actually, it’s about giving a shit, it’s about listening, it’s about caring, it’s about understanding, it’s about helping. It’s not about selling and too many people in our world try and sell something sell themselves sell their products sell their service And my advice always to the startup to come in and don’t try and sell me what you’re doing Tell me about it because I can see in the whites of your eyes if you give a shit about it or whether you’re just doing it to become millionaires billionaires and yes, that may be a secondary thing that comes from it, but believe in what you’re doing and a lot of the VCs and a lot of the angel investor accept to say the same thing it’s about the person the whites and the rise the passion that’s the thing that’s not the product necessarily because you can if you point me in the right direction I’ll wipe out villages I know where I’m going I know what I want to do and I’ve got the passion to do it it doesn’t matter about what I can sell what I can’t sell yeah in a bull market you get a lot of people that want to do it for the wrong reasons you know you get a lot ride that way there’s the rock star factor there’s the cash money factor there’s a lot of people you know that want to do This is the gold rush effect, right? It is a bit and you see it and you know You hear it from even you know people that watch our show, you know, I want to be in tech You know, like that’s already a bad statement, isn’t it? It’s like, you know, look at him’s laughing. What do you think of Andrew?
34:01 I told you he was unique. What do you think of this Buddhist approach to I’m loving it. It’s like It’s kind of a philanthropic, you know Sort of you have Buddhist approach to to sort of incubating and helping, you know These companies that make a difference and I think you know, it’s cool Well, you know, that one in 100 billion dollar company, you’re not looking for the return for you guys. You’re looking for the return for the greater good and the whole.
34:28 I think it’s a refreshing sort of to see. It’s great. It’s funny when you introduce a new product to the human market and everyone tries to classify it. I happen in London Real all the time. Someone will come on and I’ll be like, OK, you’re not a singer, you’re not a rapper, you’re not a motivational speaker, you’re not a this.
34:47 What are you and I’m like why am I trying to categorize everybody all the time it seems like kind of a last step what do you think of the London scene the tech scene used to be you used to be in finance global you know what’s going on in New York in the States what do you think that as English people here we’re gonna get right and what do you think that we need to do differently it’s an interesting thing so the London tech scene is made up of a lot of non Brits So you go and speak to a lot of the startups and they’re Scandinavians, they’re Indians, they’re Estonians. You’re like, whoa, why are you over here? Because there’s an opportunity.
35:26 Because there’s an opportunity where they’ll be funded, there’s an opportunity in the market place, et cetera. So I think the London tech scene is cosmopolitan. London’s always been cosmopolitan and that’s the attraction point. I think there’s a huge amount of cash funding available, which is good. I think there’s a huge amount of opportunistic behavior by some of the funding mechanisms and corporates, because they see the opportunity of bringing in talent that would never join them as a permanent, being brought into them through the lure of money.
35:57 And I hope that doesn’t stop momentum. And again, one of the articles or one of the things I’ve talked about openly is that I think banks supporting incubation is because the banks are scared that if you let the startups go alone and do their own thing, they’ll compete. If you incubate them, you control them. Banks love controlling people. They love controlling the market.
36:21 They love controlling the regulators, even though the regulators are getting a little bit of an upper hand now. But it’s kind of like I want to make sure the 10 best or the 12 best startups are associated with my brand. And that’s a very financial services way of doing things. So I want the tech scene to be let free, to grow, to make mistakes, to learn from one another. And I think that’s the bit that London I think will get right, which is they’ll learn from one another.
36:45 The Valley, it’s good. There’s a lot of people who move around, a lot of people who share ideas. There’s a huge amount of competition still there. I think everyone wants to get rich or richer. I think London, because there’s a lot of people who aren’t yet rich in the community, they can work off each other.
36:59 And I always go back again, I told you about analogies. The Cantonard quotes of the trawler and the seagulls, you need one or two big successful startups to allow a flurry of other seagulls to run off that trawler. And what I mean by that is, you look at Facebook, it’s created thousands of startups that then feed off that trawler. It was a new organization that did different things and now people build startups on top of it and the seagulls swarm around the trawler.
37:22 We need one or two trawlers in the UK where we can then create a market and some seagulls that can feed off that and then that’ll really grow and lift the tech scene in London, I think, and it’s kind of facilitating that. How can we find those two or three out there and then give them as much energy as possible and then build an industry on top of those? And that’s when you see the tech boom really happen. I think there’s something really weird right now about the scene in that there aren’t any big trawlers yet.
37:46 And so everyone’s like really helping. There’s not like big egos, you know, because they’ve had like that first round or no PayPal mafia, which is bad and good because it seems like everyone’s green right now. I don’t know. Do you get that feeling? Is there one anywhere right now, you know, I think Facebook was actually such a unique and Google Do you know what I mean that they they actually created this ecosystem around it, right?
38:09 You know be interesting to see, you know big big names right now or uber and guys like this and you know What’s the ecosystem around it that creates opportunities for people? I’m just not seeing businesses started by feeding them. Do you know what I mean? So the even models interesting we’re talking about either day at work because of the technology on it It’s pretty simple, which is you know, I want a taxi and this is where I am and this is what I want to pay Who’s near me? That’s where I want to go. Think about that for any service in the marketplace It literally is a bit of technology that could use in any market. I need a cleaner I need a decorator. I need a builder. I need a surveyor. I need a solicitor Same thing as in taxis. I’ll come on a real time I want it now, but there’s loads of other services you need now So applying that to a marketplace a local marketplace if they have the digital capability to do it great you know, you’re opening up. So bits of technology don’t have to be a company. It’s technology that changes the simplicity of it. I was last as a girl at university whose father was very wealthy and he invented the elastic bands that went on top of roof racks with hooks on the end. It’s the simple things that you need in life. You don’t have to be the cleverest model, etc. The Uber model maybe, just a bit of technology that opens up marketplaces in the digital community that we haven’t had. So it’s looking for things like that and sometimes
39:30 It’s everyone’s trying to do, especially in financial services, something which just isn’t clever. It’s just a different way of what was already being done, maybe a little bit cheaper etcetera, but is it really changing my life? Is it really making life that convenient? And that’s what we need to get through. Stop being trying to be sophisticated, stop trying to change the rails in a retail banking payments process, stop doing something around escrow, stop doing it. We don’t need to do that. Just think of something that’s not being done well and fix it and fix it well and then build off it and stuff like that we need to do.
39:59 What’s the hardest part of your job in the next 12 months? Are you finding it tough to get your message out there because you’ve got a location now, you’ve got a good vibe, is it hard getting your message out when there’s a new incubator announced every week, there’s all this other information out there in tech? I’m not quite sure on my message, so it’s kind of interesting, I’m relatively comfortable talking to you guys, I don’t really know you. Would I be comfortable talking to thousands of people who are watching this or standing in the conference about what I am? No, because again it goes back to the intimacy. I’m just having a dialogue with you which tells you the honesty about my life. I started off with something very, very personal that not many people know about me. And you kind of forget that you’re being videoed and it’s going out, but that’s fine. I like the intimacy. I like the kind of, I don’t mind telling people what I do. I don’t want to shout from the rooftops. I don’t want everyone to to go, oh my God, that’s amazing, can I talk to you?
40:51 Can we be part of it? If you wanna be part of it, I can introduce you, I can do things, I can help, et cetera. Not because you just wanna be part of a conversation, because you really think there’s something different that you can do. I find it really hard to say no, and that’s what my big struggle in the next 12 months is gonna be, because I think things like this and other things, the number of people saying, can we meet, can we meet? Yes, yes, there’s only so many hours in the day.
41:16 When can I actually do something drive some things forward is going to be my biggest challenge but also I want to listen I want to hear what people are talking about and if I don’t do that I’m kind of failing in what I set out to do so the balance of that is nearly nearly impossible and going back to last year one of my stress points is not being able to do everything I wanted to do really stressed me out I’ve got that funny horrible feeling that this year is going to end up being as stressful and I need my help tool quicker than I think I do hopefully I don’t but it’s I want to meet lots of people, I want to listen, I want to hear about the passion, I want to help them in any way I can, I want to point them towards funding or point them towards startups that are doing something similar or complementary, I want to point them towards corporates that really want to embrace them for the right reasons.
42:01 I want to stitch them together with things, I want to just be part of something which is the revolution in the future and if I can do that I’m happy and if I get stopped by doing that because it becomes too much, I’ll disappear and come up with a new name and a new building somewhere else and start again. We should make a documentary about this in the next 12 months, man. It’d be fascinating. Do you have to be in New York? I mean, do you have to be in California?
42:21 I mean, if this is a people’s revolution and you want to be part of all these little, you know, these little communities developing, do you need to be in these other spaces? You need to listen and learn and watch. And I think, you know, I’ve been to the West Coast six times this year already, so pretty much once a month. And I go to New York, similar amount, once a month. And all you want to do is meet people and just listen and go, that’s interesting, that’s cool, really.
42:48 I love rumours, as in who’s going to be doing what, who’s going to get signed up with this and that. And then actually working out whether that’s because someone’s trying to direct a valuation or something. You get into lots of different rumours now, the more and more you get engaged with this. But you have to travel, you have to be open, but more and more you have to just be watching the various channels, as in all the information, all the stories are out there, but you don’t get the whites in the eyes until you meet someone. And you just kind of listen to someone with a passion on what they’re trying to do, personal data. For me, Reputation.com, I met Michael over at a World Economic Forum event in San Fran a couple of weeks ago. You can just see the passion that he cares about people’s data. He doesn’t want the corporates to have it. He wants to manage it for them. He wants to be able to provide it to the individual but to the trusted organizations around it. It’s exactly the same philosophy of where I I came up with the digital soul, the personal data, the way I digitized everything that was about me, the thing I showed you on the wall on the office, how do I create that digitized version of what my brain is, my feelings? It’s the best database about me. It’s not the ones that the corporates own, it’s the thing that I’ve got. How do I connect that kind of DNA, ATCG with the silicon of zeros and ones? And if you can start to do that
44:02 And you can start to push boundaries and you can start to make it about an individual and you can really understand the motivation of an individual, you don’t have to travel as much. And it’s kind of like the irony of sitting on a plane because I have to meet someone, but I live in a digital world. There should be a way of finding out. There should be, but over and over on this show, everyone has talked about, like, you need physical proximity of people in the same room, in the same pub, like, really getting those ideas to hash out, and that’s how things happen.
44:26 I mean, most people, you know, have said that. But, you know, that genuineness really comes out. I don’t think you can sell people these days something that’s not you. So you talk about you and this personal experience you have with your niece and what drives you. I mean, you know, we found it more and more with the videos I release on YouTube.
44:41 I mean, like, the real stuff where I’m like, we’re gonna do something real here, everyone’s just like, oh. People crave, you know, that realness. I don’t know what that is. Whether that’s for a company or for an idea. And I think people can smell a fake on the web now quicker than anything.
44:56 But it’s like, you know, people’s entire lives are, you know, Facebook, Instagram, feed, Twitter. People know that though. I know, but that’s the thing, it’s just like, fuck, bullshit, fake, fake, fake. And then this is like, wow, that was a real moment. And they don’t just forget what it feels like, right?
45:09 Right, maybe that’s us humans. No, if you give a shit, as in be human, give a shit, care. Right. And that’s what life’s about. And that we do.
45:18 And be vulnerable a little bit, too, you know? Speaking of rumors, Michael Acton-Smith has kind of stepped down as president today just a few hours ago of Mosh Monsters and now it’s Divinia Nolas who we had in here, the CFO, very smart lady, very capable. I was just wondering if that’s kind of like the wave that’s happening in shortage. You know, one of the guys that started off, one of the big companies, is it moving on now where this industry is growing up?
45:41 You know, is it like kind of the puberty of London tech, do you think? Or am I reading too much into this? I don’t know. Because he mentioned he had been 10 years, I think, right? So, and he’s just stepping aside to like a more creative role.
45:52 He’s the creative guy, you know? But yeah, it’s interesting. You know, it’s growing up and it’s, you know, When is that sort of, you know, the big one gonna fuel the rest? But knowing yourself as well. So I am good at starting things, doing things, creating it from nothing.
46:10 I love building the engine. If anyone asks me to ever service it and oil it, I go crazy. And it goes back to the Capco thing. You know, I built a decent side console so we went from 80 people when I joined four years ago to 450, 500 people. I don’t wanna run a 450, 500 person firm.
46:27 I wanna go back to zero again. I wanna start, that’s my skill set and you get a lot of these founders and CEOs of startups who are amazing at growth and following a passion and when it becomes a little bit too production and a little bit too oil and service, it’s better to hand it to someone who’s good at doing that. And then you go back and go, right, what’s next? What’s the next one? What’s the next passion?
46:46 How do I put that? Knowing who you are is really important in this business. There are too many startup organizations that have got to a point where they’re kind of, they’re in production, they’ve got bugs, they’ve got new releases, they’ve got fixes And they just go mad, this isn’t what we started it for. But then they go, right, but we’re invested, we’re helped, we’re locked in, we’ve got to do this, we’ve got to do that. It’s kind of like allowing yourself to go, right, who’s next?
47:07 And I think that’s where the VCs and the funders need to be looking and saying, actually, we can help you. You need to flip out. That’s not your role anymore. Your role is to go, do next, what’s next? And I don’t think there’s enough support around that model.
47:20 But I think you’ll see it as the market matures, people will move and go to the next one and watch them. And you kind of, you know, you look at, PayPal’s brilliant founders of that where they are now and how many other successes they’ve had and you kind of like just follow them And you know, they’re gonna turn, you know water into wine. Yeah, I guess kill your darlings I’ll be ready to kill them if you need to Andrew. We always ask everyone a few questions at the end I’m gonna hit you with them If you can make a phone call to the 20 year old Andrew Tarver and give that young rugby player a bit of advice What would you tell him?
47:49 Do what I did earlier So as in I thought about it. I worked in big consultancies. I’ve worked in banks And you kind of get caught into you know, I’ve got to follow the gravy train I’ve got to stay with the big corp. I’ve got to get it on my CV. You’ve got to build credibility I can’t flip around every two years. It’s bad. I loved my Career, I love what I learned, but I should have gone earlier and I should have gone I should have exposed myself more in terms of just go do it and fail and learn Because then that’s what I do as in I’m five ten years too late Yeah, tech like embraces failure, encourages failure and banking is almost the opposite and all the traditional legal and probably doctors, it’s just like you can’t have a single fail on your CV or people are like, you know, what’s this, you know, seven years ago.
48:34 So yeah, it’s tough, right? We hear that sort of that answer a lot and it’s just like, but that’s also, you know, it’s a catch 22 a little bit, right? Because your network and your experience and your expertise and, you know, that drive And that’s, that’s why you’re going to be successful now. And that’s why you’re able to convince people to say, you know, give me the autonomy. Give me the freedom.
48:56 Give me five floors around the corner and let me, let me do, let me create that one. Maybe if you didn’t have the background that you had, they’d be like, well, fuck you, you can’t do it. Like, who are you? Right. So it’s the dilemma, the dilemma, right?
49:09 Yeah. Second part of that question. Uh, best advice you’ve ever received business or personal? I suppose it was personal, which links to business, which if you don’t get fired from your job once, you haven’t taken big enough risk. So I failed so far.
49:27 You haven’t been fired yet. So that’s my ambition. I’ll try to get you fired soon, hopefully. And last part, this is an interesting one for you. To the 20-year-old that’s listening around the world to this show, watching us right now, what advice do you give to them if they want to meet you, get involved with Bold rocket or as I just said earlier get involved in the tech industry what do you tell them you ask them why so you know too many people and again the conversation we had a few weeks ago too many people go this is what I want to do or this is how I want to do it but not many people really know why they want to do it so sit there and discover that in yourself first discover you know when I was running the company before and doing my job even before that I knew exactly what I needed to do to be good I knew exactly how to do it every day I woke up I had no fucking idea why I was doing it and it took me beginning of last year four months of sitting there going why am I getting up why am I doing this to actually discover that thing again of I know what my kind of purpose is I know what my mission is and if people 20 year olds can sit there it’s really hard when you’re 20 because you like kind of that’s quite a young age when you reflect back now but really trying to discover something which really drives you and motivates you. Don’t just do something that you think you have to do in terms of the what and the how. Do something that was really about the why.
50:49 Good advice. We’ve all been there where you’re doing something in the most efficient way and you have no idea that you’re doing it. I’ve done it. Look at my CV and each career was like years too long. I remember when I told my clients I was leaving ICAP and I was like, yeah, I’m leaving. I really haven’t been happy. And one of my clients said to me, his name was Hussein. He was at Nomura and he said, Brian, you haven’t been happy for two years and I was like oh Jesus Christ you have to talk to me every day on the phone so yeah anyways um Andrew how do people getting in touch with you learn more about bold rocket is the arc if full is Noah’s Ark you know still have room yeah isn’t we’ll always have room if you’d have room we’ll just build something else Twitter handle at bold rocket we’re very hoping we’re very friendly. 77, 79 Greyston Street. It’s the one with the big orange rocket.
51:37 It’s a big orange rocket. It’s right next to the Houghton Hotel in Old Street, round about. There’s going to be like 400 people there now. Come in, chat to the receptionist, sit in the kitchen, have a coffee, have some coke, drink. And then basically, you know, I’ll come down at some point, or one of the team will come and say hi, or tavra at boldrocket.com. I’m here to help. I try and get back to that horrible thing where I have to deal with all my emails before I sleep, which which is why I don’t sleep a huge amount.
52:02 So I can imagine now I’m gonna get even less sleep, but we’re very open. We’re here to help, we’re here to listen, we’re here to be part of it, and there’s no arrogance around it, so. Should people walk in with a different mentality? Should they be walking in, like thinking of, you know, what can I give or what can I create, as opposed to what can I get? I mean, do you like to have that person that walks in?
52:21 Yeah, as in that goes back to the kind of the point of about 20-year-old, as in walking and understanding why you’re doing what you’re doing. Don’t tell me what you’re doing and how you’re doing it. Tell me why you’re doing it. I started this conversation off with a very clear why, a very personal why. And I think everyone just having a why doesn’t have to be as personal or intimate as what I said.
52:38 Just a very clear why. I don’t give a shit what you’re doing. There may be something else you can do it. You can do it in a different way, how you do it. Your what could be pivoted, but your why is something that’s true to you, it’s your core.
52:51 And I think that’s what you walk in with. And if you don’t have that, we can help you play downstairs in kind of the area that you sat in and just kind of like to try and discover it with you, but kind of have some ideas, have some thought in it, because if you haven’t thought about that, you know, you’re going to really struggle. But again, you know, not just me. It’s like, we want to bring lots of people together at the same time. I’m not going to answer everyone’s questions, but we’ll open the floor up in the lower ground floor and say, actually, as many as you possible come down and actually have that same conversation.
53:16 How can that patchwork quilt come together? Come listen to the soap boxes. Come do the soap boxes. Have something to say. You know, we invited you along.
53:24 Yeah, I got to come. This is a soap box every week or two. You have someone come down, get up on the soap box and talk. So I’m gonna do it, and if people wanna come down and watch, they should, right? Okay, he’s talking, and I’m thinking about the 50-some-odd guests we’ve had, and I’m just thinking about Emily Brooke with Blaze, she’s doing a laser light on her bicycle, because she’s crazy passionate about this, or Robin from Datch, like she wants to make this the best lesbian app possible, or like Garrett from Adbrain, he wants to do cross, these people are crazy about this stuff, and if you told me to do any of those jobs, I would be bored.
53:58 And even if they were worth a billion dollars, I’d be like, are you kidding me? I can’t do X, Y, or Z. So you can’t overstate the value and the passion, right? Yeah. There you go.
54:09 Felt like a London Real episode. It did, right? I know. It was good. Fantastic.
54:13 It’s a nice change. It’s nice not to talk always about business models and market share all the time. So, Andrew, thanks so much for coming on. I just love what you guys are doing. I’m very curious what you guys are gonna be doing in a year and what it’s gonna look like.
54:24 And I mean that in a good way. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, You can watch us on our YouTube channel. It’s all good, send us an email. Hello, it’s siliconreal.com. Follow them at Bold Rocket.
54:35 I don’t know what else to say, man. It’s about the people, right? There we go, loved it. What an amazing community we have, right? Thanks guys, and all the best.
54:42 Cheers.
