Full transcript: Anastasia Emmanuel on London Real
0:00 Brian Rose: This week on Silicon Real, Anastasia Emmanuel, Indiegogo.
0:04 Anastasia Emmanuel: I’m finding innovations and amazing products out in the tech sphere and helping them raise finance. I 100% believe in what Indiegogo is trying to achieve. I genuinely think it’s transforming the finance industry. If you’re going out to raise money through Indiegogo or another crowdfunding platform, just for the money you’re going to do it wrong.
0:26 You have to be savvy when it comes to marketing and outreach and getting people excited about your product from the beginning. What Indiegogo does is make you smarter, faster.
0:36 Brian Rose: Silicon Real presents Anastasia Emmanuel. Indiegogo.
0:42 Anastasia Emmanuel: The world should decide what ideas come to life, not a handful of people who can sign a check.
0:54 Brian Rose: In London, technology is the Silicon Roundabout. Introducing a new talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. Silicon Real. Each week interviewing entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, financial technology, accelerators and incubators in an exciting three-person format. Learn about the people behind the innovation.
1:23 Locally filmed, locally sourced. It’s about the people. This is Silicon Reel, the weekly talk show dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. My guest today is Anastasia Emmanuel, who leads Indiegogo’s hardware design and technology for the UK, where you encourage crowdfunding growth. You’ve got a big platform, nine million people visit you guys every month globally.
1:53 Anastasia Emmanuel: Fifteen.
1:54 Brian Rose: Fifteen, Jesus. That’s an old wiki. It’s huge.
1:56 Anastasia Emmanuel: We did some big Series B rounds this year with Branson Involve, some PayPal Mafia.
2:01 Brian Rose: We’re going to get all into that. You are also the tech presenter for The Week in Tech, which is a very well-produced weekly news video from Tech City News. We all watch it here. People watch it around the world. It’s got like three news stories and an app, so we want to hear more about that.
2:17 Anastasia, you are a real face of the London technology scene, so thanks so much for being here, and welcome to Silicon Real.
2:24 Anastasia Emmanuel: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s amazing to be here. to look at, so hi. Yeah, just look at me, look at me, look at me.
2:31 Brian Rose: So we got here and I was telling you in the kitchen, I got to hear about the Tech City News gig because there’s not many people have to, you know, have two major jobs and two major hats. You know, I know from being in a slightly different kind of media how much hard work goes behind the scenes of making any video, let alone one that’s edited and short and you’re on different locations and everything. So I was wondering if you could tell us how did you get the gig and what’s it like what does it take on a weekly basis to get that video out
3:00 Anastasia Emmanuel: so kind of a year and a half onwards it’s now a lot more streamlined so it kind of covers everything from investments to a global story a gadget type you know if there’s been a big product that’s been launched and then we cover an app like you mentioned our download of the week and then there’s kind of a crazy story which is usually something like somebody attached a rocket to a bike or or something of such nature.
3:23 Brian Rose: Okay, every week you make one of these.
3:25 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, so we film on a Thursday, and then we rush back to the Tech City News Studio, edit it really quickly, and it goes out at 7 a.m. on Friday morning.
3:33 Brian Rose: And so you shoot one day Thursday, half a day?
3:36 Anastasia Emmanuel: It’s now, actually.
3:37 We’ve got it down to about an hour and, an hour, between an hour and an hour and a half. That’s pretty good. Yeah, so I write my stories on Wednesday night. I check that nothing’s changed on Thursday morning, and then I meet a camera man at location, and we just knock it out. So it’s pretty quick.
3:54 Brian Rose: Wow. Okay, I thought there would be a lot more involved. Is there a producer that gets the ideas? That’s you.
3:59 Anastasia Emmanuel: Well, so it’s kind of one of those.
4:00 Brian Rose: Then why don’t you just put presenter on your LinkedIn? It should be like presenter, producer, director, writer.
4:05 Anastasia Emmanuel: I mean, we’re all startup. You kind of chip in and do everything. You know, the cameraman is also the, he’s I guess producing it as well.
4:11 Like he’ll tell me to stand in different positions and he’s the editor. It’s Alex Wood with the vision. It’s kind of, it’s one of those like team efforts. Everyone just chips in and I know what I’m doing and I know what works. So yeah, I’ve learned a lot as well.
4:25 Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s fantastic. I mean, I don’t think you’re ever just in studio. You’re always somewhere, right?
4:30 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, generally, so this week, I couldn’t make it. So Alex Wood, who’s the editor, he fronted this morning, it’s Friday, right?
4:37 Yeah, so if you go and text me, you’ll see his face. So he did it in the studio today because they wanted to do some green screen work, but it completely varies. You know, if you have a place that you think would be awesome to film, and get in touch.
4:49 Brian Rose: How many days out of your week do you think you spend on that? Is it like one day or a half a day of your billable hours?
4:55 Anastasia Emmanuel: I mean, you never do billable hours when it’s this kind of a thing. But it’s pretty quick now, because I mean, the news is moving all the time, but it’s a rap show. So it’s rounding up the news rather than breaking. So it’s not like I have to be there when a story breaks and there’s a huge investment or an acquisition. I look at the news on Wednesday night and I see which big UK tech companies have got investment or been acquired, and then which things do I think that our audience will find interesting from a product perspective or whatever.
5:29 So all of that, I mean, I guess writing and researching the stories probably takes me a couple of hours on a Wednesday night, and then again, filming was like an hour and a half.
5:38 Brian Rose: Wow, that’s down to a science. What’s the best moment and worst moment of tech city news?
5:43 Anastasia Emmanuel: Okay, I think the worst and the best moment is probably the same. So last year, actually it’s coming round again, so I’m getting hives.
5:50 So last year around Christmas, Alex had this amazing idea to send me to Canary Wharf to the Ice Rink. And he was like, yeah, we’re gonna send you to this really cool location. It’s like right in Canary Wharf, have you been?
6:01 Brian Rose: Yeah, I haven’t been to the one in Canary Wharf, no, no, no. She got, it’s really great.
6:05 Anastasia Emmanuel: So he’s like, you’re gonna go and you’re gonna present We Can Tech while ice skating. And for anyone that doesn’t know, I have zero hand-eye coordination. I find it quite difficult to walk in a straight line when I’m talking. So the idea of like, I just met you, but I believe you. See, in the kitchen.
6:25 So like I had to ice skate, which I cannot do whilst also like speaking to the camera. It was pretty horrendous. There was, I mean, the outtakes video was, I think one of our most viewed videos.
6:38 Brian Rose: Have you ever thought, Alex, I got to give this up. I got to go on.
6:42 Brian Rose: Will this go on for a long time, or is this just something that you do now?
6:47 Anastasia Emmanuel: I just really, I love it. I think the crossover between my two hats is huge. I’m leading technology, I’m finding innovations and amazing products out in the tech sphere and helping them raise finance. And then on Tech City News, I’m keeping the cutting edge of what’s happening in the tech scene.
7:05 So I need to know that for my other job. And I need to be very much entrenched in the scene. I think if you speak to anyone in the UK tech scene, it’s growing, but it’s small enough that everyone has a touch point with somebody. It’s like not six degrees of separation, it’s like half a degree. So aside from the fact that it actually really helps to be a voice of tech and know what’s going on and be kind of aware of the innovation that’s happening, I just love it.
7:32 Anastasia Emmanuel: I think it’s really fun.
7:33 Brian Rose: I mean, you must love it. You do it every week.
7:35 Anastasia Emmanuel: I do love it
7:36 Brian Rose: and that’s one thing that struck me about this scene because when we started doing the show about a year and a half ago, I was just amazed and I used to make this joke that I was meeting people that actually enjoyed their jobs and it was just a shocking idea and everyone is just so cooperative, so helpful in this scene and something else I noticed the other day I was telling someone at lunch is that there hasn’t been the big, big exits that you’ve seen in Silicon Valley so there’s no hierarchy either so you don’t have the PayPal mafia and this mafia and you don’t have this guy and the billion.
8:02 Everyone’s kind of relatively in a similar club of still trying to get there, still trying to get there so it’s, I don’t know, it’s a real team effort And I don’t think it’s gonna be like that in three years. I think we’re at a really special time right now. There’s such a lack of competitiveness versus other industries.
8:17 Anastasia Emmanuel: And you’re right, I think it’s because of that lack of hierarchy. But then I think if you look at it from the flip side, because there haven’t been those huge acquisitions and those huge exits, I think that’s why we’re in a different finance position.
8:28 Like there isn’t as much money here. Like, you know, you look across the pond and the PayPal mafia and, you know, the big IPOs, they’ve gone, they’ve made their money and they invested back in the ecosystem. And that’s why there’s more VC money flying around, that’s why there’s more angel money. I think the question of, oh, why are we so behind and our investment scene is so different versus Silicon Valley, I don’t necessarily think it’s a problem, I just think we’re at a different stage.
8:57 I think if you fast forward five years when the moshi monsters of the world and just the IPO, those start happening, I think you’ll start seeing that money coming back in.
9:06 Brian Rose: But I hope it doesn’t make for me. And then people will stop to be nice, right?
9:10 Anastasia Emmanuel: No, that’s not good.
9:11 Brian Rose: It’s funny, because we’re in London, and there’s huge industries in London, like media, politics, real estate.
9:17 And you meet someone from the non-tech industry, and like getting an email intro, like they want to find your sphere or something. And you’re like, that’s not how we do it in tech. We hook each other up. So it’s a stark contrast when you see those two worlds. Let’s talk about financing.
9:29 Let’s talk about you. Let’s talk about Indiegogo. When you went to work for them over a year ago, right?
9:36 Anastasia Emmanuel: About a year and a month ago.
9:37 Brian Rose: Why go work for a crowdfunding platform?
9:40 Was it something you went to seek out? Was it something that when you went in, you had a certain idea about when you got there, it was something completely different? Why? You could have done anything. You can’t do anything.
9:52 Anastasia Emmanuel: Thanks. That’s amazing. So why? So the way I fell into it was somewhat serendipity, somewhat huge passion. I thought I knew a lot about the industry.
10:06 I knew nothing. And the why comes down to the fact that I 100% believe in what Indiegogo is trying to achieve. And as a person, I’m very passionate. I’m very all or nothing. If I believe in something, I will work crazy hours.
10:24 I will do anything. And I’ll convince anyone about it. And when I heard Denae and the founder’s story and what Indiegogo stands for and the fact that it was trying to democratize access to capital, It just made sense, because in my past, the previous year I’d been trying to raise finance for a startup myself. All of my friends were either trying to raise seed money or trying to get their idea off the ground. And the sole factor that connected us all was that we were, we just couldn’t do it.
10:54 It was so tough to raise finance. And that’s the problem that Indigo is trying to solve. And it’s not something that can be solved overnight, But at least it’s, you know, I genuinely think it’s transforming the finance industry. So that’s, I guess, the why. Okay.
11:12 Brian Rose: And that’s the passion you bring to it because you see that it’s really changing people’s lives and futures. Even though it’s an equity, it’s a crowdfunding, it’s not an equity credit, it’s a crowdfunding piece as opposed to say VC money, which you were looking for like a year or two ago. Does that change the equation differently? Does it bring a different energy? I know it must bring a different energy of investors that just want to see success as opposed to returns.
11:31 What is that whole gap between, say, an equity crowdfunding and a crowdfunding model, or a VC model and a crowdfunding? You’re on the inside now. Is there a difference?
11:40 Anastasia Emmanuel: I think there’s a difference, but I think people are scared that one’s going to cut out the other. So the VCs and the angels are worried that crowdfunding is just going to erase the industry and it’s just not going to happen.
11:51 I think what’s happening is that we’re starting to see all of these different models work together and everyone has more information. And what I mean by that is that, you know, a small company or a small person with an idea that’s trying, that’s very early stage and they’re trying to get their idea off the ground, what they need at that point is market validation. They need to get their idea out there and they need to get feedback on whether it’s good, whether it’s bad, what they should change.
12:15 And they’re not going to get that from a bank, they’re not going to get it from an investor. And so we’ve seen, you know, over time that actually a lot of people are coming to Indiegogo to prove that, to prove the market validation, to get their real-time feedback from a huge amount of people, and then they go on to raise further funding. And so I think the way that the model is changing and as the market matures, we’re going to start seeing even more people who are raising money through Indiegogo because of other things aside from money.
12:45 Even today, you know, we have VC-backed companies, like a really good example is Misfitshine. Actually, I’m not wearing it. Have you seen it? fitness tracker so it’s like this big it’s this beautiful beautifully designed fitness tracker so kind of like the night night fuel band or anything else that tracks your activity and very very clever founder Sonny Vu based in Silicon Valley and he came to IndieGoGo at the end of last year and ran a campaign now he’d already raised a 7.4 million dollar VC round so he clearly didn’t need money right what he wanted was that he poured his heart and soul and his team had worked so hard on creating this product that they wanted to know that when they launched it to market, that they were giving something to their customers that they wanted. And so through his Indieguru campaign, he got a crazy amount of market feedback. He found out, he walked the price point up from $40, which is what he started selling them at, up to about $75. So he created his RRP price of $99. He figured out people were willing to pay $50 more for a black version. He got funders from over 85 countries, so he created a really strong international strategy right from the start and now he still sells more outside of the US than inside. So all of this feedback that he got, he wouldn’t have got had he just launched straight to market which he could have done because he had the money in the bank.
14:05 Brian Rose: Right and that’s that’s the question
14:07 What is crowdfunding? Is it marketing? Is it like customer acquisition or product you know delineation or is it financing? Or is there some other is there some other adjective I’m not throwing in there?
14:18 Anastasia Emmanuel: No I mean you know when people ask me what crowdfunding is or why would I crowdfund. The last thing I say is money.
14:25 The first thing I say is market validation, finding and building your community, guessing real-time feedback from a large group of people, creating evangelists, capturing data against your customers, and then raising money. Because it’s all of those things first. And I genuinely think if you’re going out to raise money through Indiegogo or another crowdfunding platform just for the money, you’re going to do it wrong.
14:48 Brian Rose: How’s the market changed in a year that you’ve been there or even two years?
14:52 Has it got, I don’t know, more intelligent? Has it gone overdone on certain hardware products and has it pulled back a bit and people gotten burned and like, I never got my product delivered two years later? Like, is the market learning and what are we learning?
15:05 Anastasia Emmanuel: The market’s definitely learning. So I mean, you look at crowdfunding in the US and it is a more mature market.
15:10 So people are kind of approaching crowdfunding in a different type of way. So things like Misfit, or you have huge billion dollar companies like Marvell running their products through Indiegogo. In the UK, it’s growing really fast. So it’s our third largest market. And even in the last year, for me and hardware, I’ve just seen a huge rise.
15:31 And that’s a huge rise in the number of people wanting to crowdfund, but also the way that they’re going about it. They’re a lot smarter. They understand the process. I think in the UK, because it’s still quite a new industry, people still think it’s free money. They’re like, oh, it’s amazing, I can’t get a bank loan.
15:47 I’ll just put my idea on Indiegogo. I’ll go get a glass of wine, and then millions of dollars are gonna come in buying it. And then maybe I’ll get around to making a product. Yeah, and it’s not like that. There’s a huge amount of preparation that goes into it.
15:59 You have to be savvy when it comes to marketing and outreach and getting people excited about your product from the beginning. So the first 30% of any campaign on any platform will come from your own network. Okay, okay. It’s not the strangers out there who are gonna go and fund it. And the reason is because those strangers, the crowd still need to see that that product or that idea has been validated first before they feel kind of trusting enough and excited enough to get involved.
16:25 Brian Rose: Okay, what are some of, is there liability when it comes to crowdfunding? Like if you take the hundred grand in, like do you have to do something with it or is there any kind of liability for people?
16:36 Anastasia Emmanuel: I mean, there’s always an element of risk in everything, you know, even equity funding. When you look at the crowdfunding model, So we have two types of funding. So flexible is where you keep all of the money that you raise.
16:48 And fixed funding is where, if you don’t hit your goal, then all of the money goes back. And we’ve created these two different types of funding models because it fits different. One size doesn’t fit all. If you have a product and your minimum order quantity is going to cost $200,000, then you need $200,000. Because 150, you won’t be able to buy the tooling.
17:10 Brian Rose: That’s usually a complex hardware product.
17:12 Anastasia Emmanuel: Exactly, yeah, and therefore you should go for fixed funding. However, if you’re doing it for market validation, like Misfit was, or if you’re doing it because you wanna get your product out there and get feedback, or you want to do it for a marketing kind of effort, and there’s another form of finance, you know, like you have some money in the bank, or you have a potential seed funder, then flexible funding is the way to go.
17:35 And with a lot of projects, I think knowing exactly how much money you need is tough, particularly kind of outside the hardware space. Everyone wants the million dollars or the pounds, but it’s actually, crowdfunding works in exactly the same way as every other type of finance. You raise a small amount of capital, you prove what you said that you were gonna do, and then you go back and get some more.
17:57 Brian Rose: Okay, three tips that you would give people if they’re gonna come on and you go-go for the first time, what would you tell them?
18:04 Anastasia Emmanuel: If you have hardware, talk to me. That doesn’t count as one of my tips. So the first one would be prepare. So do a lot of research. We have created a crazy amount of resources that should basically tell you how to run your campaign.
18:19 So when you’re looking at your campaign page, you have a video, you have your perks, you have your pitch. It’s very simple things like your video, you definitely should have a video. You’ll raise 115% more if you have a video than if you don’t. Keep it short. You have to be on the video.
18:33 It needs to feel very open and transparent. People are investing in people. They want to hear stories. Yeah, I mean, there’s four main reasons I’m diverting. But there’s four main reasons why people fund, like the motivations of why people fund.
18:45 First one is people, so they know you, they’re your friends, they’re your family. Second one is passion, so I love film, you love film, you’re a filmmaker, I’m gonna fund you. The third one is participation, which is the idea that people wanna be part of something that’s big in themselves. So you have a nine-to-five job and you have three kids, but you really wish you could do more off of Parkinson’s research. Or make a film or something.
19:04 Brian Rose: Yeah, or yeah, you wanted to be a rock star and your dad made you become an accountant, that’s not my story.
19:09 Anastasia Emmanuel: And then the last one is the perk. Let’s say it’s gonna start with a P and it has to. It’s the four P’s of crowdfunding.
19:15 Brian Rose: What’s a perk?
19:16 Anastasia Emmanuel: A perk is something that you’re giving in exchange for the contribution. So it can be something physical, as in a product. So you get the fitness tracker or you get the Raspberry Pi laptop. It’s a recent campaign or it could be an experience. So it could be, you get to be on set of this film.
19:35 So like an amazing example of a film perk was an Australian guy was raising money for to hire this amazing zombie makeup artist and what he did was he said for $200 you can I’ll make you up as a zombie so you’ll be a zombie in my movie and for a thousand dollars I will kill you in this zombie movie and it’s sold out yeah so you think about that and you’re like so he got six he sold six of those thousand and then loads of the I think 60 of the 200 so people were paying him to be in his movie normally you pay extras so not only does it flip the finance model but it actually gets people really involved and really excited so that’s a really good example of an experience that you’re giving to someone in exchange for some funds
20:19 Brian Rose: okay are there certain things you won’t fund as a company certain projects unless it’s illegal no okay will you and will you do like medical research or new
20:28 Anastasia Emmanuel: you’ll do that. So Indiegogo is a completely open platform.
20:32 Brian Rose: Which makes you different than the big bad wolf of Kickstarter, right? We might as well talk about them. I guess you compete with them. Do they do things different than you? Can you both exist in the ecosystem in the long run? What’s your take on them?
20:47 Anastasia Emmanuel: Absolutely more people can exist in the ecosystem. There’s over 900 platforms.
20:52 Brian Rose: I know I used to see them on the tube and I was like, you guys are a little late. I used to see tons of them. But those are the only two that I hear regularly so Indiegogo is is quite different in terms of a platform
21:05 Anastasia Emmanuel: To quite a lot out there so the first one first big difference is the funding model so I said the flexible versus fixed okay we’re an open platform so we were founded to try and democratize access to capital to try and get rid of the gatekeeper so it makes no sense for us to tell you whether your idea is good enough or not we’ve seen time and time again that you know a small group of people are wrong they’re just wrong like zombies like the zombies like the zombies like right now there is the campaign you can have a look at it it’s called accent cat headphones they’re these headphones that have cat ears and you can flip them and they they have speakers and so you look at them I remember looking at them and thinking huh I don’t think I would buy those I’m not really sure who would and then you look at them now and they’re still funding they’ve raised over 2.8 million dollars from over 17,000 people and it and it actually makes me love my job more because I didn’t think it was I thought it was kind of a crazy idea I was like I will never wear them you know I’m not ashamed to say but I’m not right because I’m not representative of the world and that’s why indigo exists because the world should decide what ideas come to life not a handful of people who can sign a check that’s why the startup industry is a whole exists because people are exactly saying that they don’t believe that you’re doing it right.
22:21 Brian Rose: Okay, so you opened anything,
22:23 Anastasia Emmanuel: Kickstarter has limits on what they do, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. We’re completely open. So, you know, we don’t have a submission process, so you could launch a London Real Indiegogo campaign right now. We also don’t curate, so we have a merits-based platform, again, because we want to try and democratize and level the playing field. So we don’t decide what sits on our homepage.
22:45 It’s all based on our go-go factor, which is a proprietary algorithm that measures the success on your campaign. It’s not dissimilar to the Google PageRank. So depending on how hard you’re working, how much traction, how much traffic are you writing back to people, people commenting, all of these types of things, not just funds raised, that all goes into your go-go factor. And the higher that is, the more you go up our trending pages. And that’s what everyone wants.
23:11 They want to be on the home page where there’s 15 million monthly uniques. Right, right.
23:15 Brian Rose: Did someone make mashed potatoes? Was that an IndieGoGo campaign?
23:18 Anastasia Emmanuel: That was another platform.
23:19 Brian Rose: Oh, okay, sorry.
23:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: But we’ve had our fair share of crazy campaigns.
23:23 Brian Rose: They raised six figures for the mashed potatoes? I think so. Potato salad, potato salad. Anyways, look that up.
23:29 Brian Rose: Let’s talk about equity crowdfunding really quickly. We had a year ago, Jeff Lynn from Cedars in here. They’ve had some pretty good success in a year. One of my former guests, James Dawson from Humble Grape, raised about a half million pounds on there, and we’ve seen equity crowdfunding get some legs in the UK. I mean, I think it’s still not allowed in the US, I think.
23:49 Brian Rose: Is this something you guys are gonna be getting into? What’s your read on it? Are they two separate markets, in your opinion? Will we see an Indiegogo equity side at some point?
23:59 Anastasia Emmanuel: So, funnily enough, Denae Ringelman, our founder, initially wanted to try and democratize capital, so equity capital, but it was illegal, because the Jobs Act hadn’t been passed, And even now, the third phase of the Jobs Act hasn’t been passed, so it’s not legal.
24:13 Brian Rose: OK. So that’s in the US, sorry, yeah.
24:15 Anastasia Emmanuel: And we’re a US-based company. And so that’s why they created this rewards-based, perks-based system. And that’s why it exists, because we were the first ever crowdfunding platform.
24:26 We were founded in 2008 when the word crowdfunding didn’t exist. So they were like, we have to work around this. And they created this system where you get something in exchange for something. Saying that, obviously, as the first and the world’s largest crowdfunding platform, we’ve been very instrumental in the equity debate and the talk of it in the US. So in 2011, we were invited down to the White House, and our founders have been talking very closely to the administration about equity crowdfunding and the possibilities, and the White House actually used a lot of our Indiegogo campaigners as proof that this model does exist and that these ideas, all of these amazing innovations that are now live in the world creating jobs wouldn’t have come to pass had it not been for Indiegogo and crowdfunding.
25:14 Brian Rose: When you’re going to the White House, I’m thinking it’s 10 years. When I’m thinking you’re visiting the White House, I’m thinking you’re waiting 10 years for anything to happen. That’s what goes through my brain.
25:23 Anastasia Emmanuel: They’re moving pretty fast. I mean, I don’t know when the third phase of the Jobs Act is going to be passed.
25:28 Brian Rose: But since you’re an American company, you’re kind of restricted in that sense.
25:32 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, so a lot of people say, why don’t I do equity crowdfunding really go-go because I’m in the UK. But yeah, not only are we a US company but our perks based business is growing so fast that we really want to focus on it and you know put all of our efforts into that. Saying that it’s not that we won’t ever look at equity crowdfunding but right now our efforts are very much focused on perks.
25:51 Brian Rose: Okay yeah the securities laws in the States are pretty tight you know we had that we had that depression and the crash and all the other and so they’re really tight about that so I think it’s gonna be a while longer, but that’s just one man’s opinion. Talk to me about the Yanks. You work for an American company. What does that feel like? It must feel different. I’m sure you’ve been out to the headquarters in the Valley and I’m sure it’s managed in a different way.
26:14 Brian Rose: You worked for UK companies before. What’s it like?
26:17 Anastasia Emmanuel: I’ve always had a link across the pond. So the video production company I was working at before, the founder moved over to Silicon Valley and we would always kind of hop there and backwards and we launched the company out there. So I think I’ve always had a bit of a tie and I like the way that Americans do business in that like there’s no BS, that they just get on with stuff, they’re bullshit, sometimes you know they’re like too arrogant and too obnoxious but then Brits are too apologetic you know I always use the analogy of you look at a pitching competition in England and in America and the American guy stands up and he’s like this is this is the most disruptive hyper local technology you’re ever gonna see it’s the uber for X it’s gonna get acquired and for this many millions.
27:02 Yeah, think Uber. Think Uber. Yeah, think Uber, but whatever. That analogy’s never been made. And then you look at the English guy and he kind of comes on and he’s like, oh, well, you know, we’ve been working on this idea for a while and I mean, it’s, you know, it’s going pretty well.
27:14 You know, we’ve got like five million users, but I mean, I don’t know how many of those will convert into paying users. And it’s like, they’re apologizing continually for like, for our audio listeners, she’s holding her glass and looking in her. Right. Yeah. And so I like the way that they’re, you know, they’re very get up and go, they’re very bulky and we have you know an amazing managerial system so our headquarters are in San Francisco I go out there every sort of six months I was just there in October every three months actually we have a something called All Hands which is where we all get together from across the world and we brainstorm and we you know bond and drink beer and do like activities and that kind of thing and see how we’re gonna become the world’s funding engine And it’s amazing to see everyone from across the world.
28:01 I have people that are doing my job in Canada, Israel, Germany, Australia. So that-
28:07 Brian Rose: How many employees?
28:08 Anastasia Emmanuel: There’s around about, there’s over a hundred. Yeah, so the main office is San Francisco. Then we have New York and LA and then people on the ground.
28:19 So yeah, I actually love working for an American company apart from, you know, obviously at 7 p.m. they wake up. So then you start your day again. That’s the only slight downside.
28:28 Brian Rose: So you’re getting emails late at night?
28:30 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, I’m pretty much work 24 seven, but I love it.
28:33 Brian Rose: People say that’s the plus of the American company. They pitch big, they go big, they go big. What’s the plus of the British culture and mentality? Just what is it?
28:42 Anastasia Emmanuel: There’s so much. We’re so talented, you know, being unassuming is actually a good thing if you can channel it in the right way. Right, teamwork in different ways. Yeah, definitely. I think the amount of talent from a kind of tech side, from our strong engineering, from our amazing universities and also what I’ve always loved about London is this kind of intersection of all these different industries, I mean you touched on it.
29:09 Within five minutes you have the banking sector, the fashion sector, the tech sector, media and so you get these amazing cross collaborations and that’s why I think we’re really strong in industry because everyone’s so close to each other. And so I think the strengths that we have is being able to, you know, you look at the US and fashion’s in New York, but tech’s in Silicon Valley, it’s like they’re separated by coast. Yeah, banking as well, yeah. Exactly. So, you know, I think being British helps.
29:41 Also, you know, pitching over in the US, like they actually love British people, it’s great. I get away with a lot more in America than I do here. Oh yeah. And so you can be charming, And if you’re smart and you’re bullshit and you have a great idea, then investors across the pond will listen to you. I think we just need to get a little bit more ballsy.
30:00 Brian Rose: Okay. Well said, well said. I am guilty of something here on a regular basis and it’s because of my local focus. My other show is called London Real. This is Silicon Real and I started off by saying it’s dedicated to the people of the London technology scene.
30:15 And there’s a lot of other tech in this country. This is the United Kingdom. It’s big. you know 80 million plus people in all the different places and I should be thinking of that more Cambridge is a huge hub you recently took a huge tour of the UK ten different cities and you went up and talked to all these people in all these places and we have big love for everyone up in Birmingham and Leeds and Manchester and Newcastle and all that so what did you what did you discover why did you make the trip or did you just want to film yourself in different cities.
30:46 Anastasia Emmanuel: That was fun but no. So yeah so the the nationwide tour was called Go Crowd Fun Britain and the reason for it was so I’m a northerner I’m from Leeds okay and you know I sit in London and I see all this amazing innovation we’re distributing millions every single week on Indiegogo and I look at the scene and you know even not just with our platform with across the whole industry most of these ideas are coming from London. They’re London-centric, like everything.
31:11 Brian Rose: Okay, but you see everything from your control panel, or do you have like a God view like Uber does? Yeah, like looking down. You don’t have to answer that.
31:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: Alright, so you see it’s very London-centric. And it made me ask the question, why? Because being from up north, I know that it’s not for a lack of, you know, innovation and creativity and talent. Like if you look at some of the best inventions in Britain, they’ve come outside London. And so it kind of annoyed me that you know this isn’t happening why is crowdfunding not coming to these cities and also if you look at capital because London is the epicentre of finance there is more money here you know a lot of VCs work out of London there’s more angel networks and so these ideas across the country actually have less access to capital therefore they need other alternatives even more so I decided to get in a car and drive with a cameraman to ten cities and to try and Spread the word of crowdfunding and hold these master classes in each city and meet with 26 journalists to try and get them to spread the word And the challenge was to try and raise a million pounds from outside of London from ideas like big and small You know, they could have been creative films or they could be products. They could be amazing causes And that was in July and so far we’ve raised about nine hundred fifty thousand pounds Wow. Congratulations Thanks.
32:34 Brian Rose: Was there any non-obvious takeaway where you got there and it was just like, oh, wow, this is the way it is and it’s not what I was expecting?
32:41 Anastasia Emmanuel: I mean, I think I thought I knew quite a lot about the northern scene because I’m from there. Right. But I’ve been away for a really long time and actually going to each city and talking to people from the local area and the influences within that scene, I got to learn a lot more. I had no idea that Bristol was really strong at Internet of Things and they had a really big robotics lab and there was a huge amount of activity going on there.
33:04 Birmingham is really big for gaming, Manchester obviously has a huge creative element but then tech they’re forging forward and you know they want to be the top one of the top five European cities and we’ve you know even just purely Manchester and Leeds there’s two campaigns that have raised over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from there so the technology is there I I think the cities outside of London just aren’t as good at commercializing it.
33:31 Brian Rose: Okay. So then you do the master classes, you teach them how to sell and get involved.
33:36 Brian Rose: And then the pool of capital is in the web, so it can go anywhere. It just wants to go to the best idea.
33:41 Anastasia Emmanuel: Exactly. And the other point was that there’s this myth that you have to jump across the pond to get funding in London. You have to go to the valley and raise investment, and that’s the only way that you’re going to get your company off the ground.
33:54 And even in Britain, people think that if you’re serious about your business, you have to come to London to get funding. And one of my points was that you don’t. In your living room, through a laptop, you have an access to the whole world.
34:06 Brian Rose: Can you tell who’s funding the companies? Say they’re funding them in pounds.
34:10 Can you tell that money’s coming from America or Asia or Europe?
34:14 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah. So a lot of the UK campaigns will list in dollars just because they have a very global product and the dollar is seen as the most recognizable currency. So I have a couple of campaigns right now, and they’re raising $200,000 plus, but they’re leads-based and Manchester-based and London-based. So on our back end, we have a very strong campaign dashboard, and that provides the campaign owner with a lot of analytics.
34:39 And based on that, they can make a lot of smart marketing decisions because they can see where their funds are coming from, like you say, different countries. They can see which URLs are referring the most traffic, which people are referring. They can see when funds are coming in. So if they get covered in a big TechCrunch blog, then they can see that it converted into $11,000. Wow, that’s fascinating to see.
34:58 Brian Rose: What’s the future of crowdfunding? Is it all going to be about the data? Is it going to be about the analytics? I mean, if you think of yourself, I really need to solve X, Y, and Z in the next two years to bring a better product to market. What are those things?
35:11 Anastasia Emmanuel: I think that what Indiegogo does is make you smarter, faster. So another potentially negative thing about Britain is that we’re scared of failing. Americans love it. They like to see it as a badge of honor. I failed five startups.
35:26 Brian Rose: I actually heard Eric Schmidt say that at Google they like to hire people that have failed because of the mantra that you learn more from when you fail than when you actually succeed, which is kind of true because if you fail you look at every tiny thing. I know I’ve done it and you’re trying to analyze what went wrong. It’s kind of true although that maybe has been overdone. I think someone from some of the VCs were like, but we do want you to win. We still need return.
35:51 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah you do have a point and that’s in Britain era is in that side. Yeah and so I think what crowdfunding is doing is is is kind of lowering that barrier to a fear so you can actually fail very fast it’s like the lean startup methodology you know in 35 days you realize that you need to go back to the drawing board and tweak what you have it might be that your idea isn’t you know your idea might not be rubbish but something’s wrong because it’s not resonating with the crowd and so I think what we’re gonna see in the future is everything from really large companies to still, you know, a man or a woman with an idea using Indiegogo to get that data and get that insights and you know change, learn, iterate and then get their idea out there faster.
36:29 Brian Rose: Yeah it’s a wonderful way to get feedback and you know you can go for market tests and you go for focus groups but nothing talks like putting your money where your mouth is. And the crowd they will tell you like whether you want
36:41 It or not they will tell you whether your idea is rubbish. Right just like the market will tell you what the price is. Exactly. Okay, good. I have a great opportunity here because you are a woman and you are in tech.
36:52 You’re also under 30, so it’s an interesting data point for me. And we’ve actually had a lot of female guests here on Silicon Real. And I was first asking some of them when they came on, like, let’s talk about women in tech. And then I’m like, that’s just really silly just to talk about that. And then I asked a couple of them, what’s the question that we should be asking about women in tech?
37:08 I suppose just talking about it and talking about the imbalance and being like, la, la, la. What should we really be asking or what should we be asking ourselves or what do you think when people talk to you about that?
37:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: It’s really funny. There’s a lot of kind of talk about this at the moment and I recently just went to a women in tech supper, which is something that I don’t typically do. I don’t kind of go to a lot of women in tech functions or…
37:32 Brian Rose: Why not?
37:33 Anastasia Emmanuel: Because I don’t think it’s helping the situation. I think that you can’t solve a problem by only talking to half of the population. the other half need to be involved in the conversation, like the men, because we’re not gonna solve it on our own, bitching and sitting in a room talking about how we’re subjugated and we’re not earning enough, et cetera, et cetera. I think there’s definitely a benefit to having a support group, and I have strong women in tech who founded companies and raised six million and done amazing things, and it’s amazing to have them and to feel connected to them in a way that potentially I can’t with male founders, et cetera.
38:12 But I think the conversation gets too siloed into this women in tech, like why are we not equal and how can we change it? And I think it needs to be more about just equalizing everything and looking at the bigger picture and figuring out childcare and the big issues around why we think that it’s not equal. And as a woman in tech, people ask me, what are the advantages or what are the disadvantages? And, you know, there’s an element of I walk into a room and I’m one of like a handful of women.
38:46 Brian Rose: What is it, one out of 10?
38:47 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, yeah, like if you’re looking at pure hardware, so I do a lot of hardware events and conferences. I’m always on hardware panels and I’ll be like one woman and, you know, on the panel it’ll be like 10. And there’s that thing where you walk up on stage and people think you’re the MC. Okay, all right.
39:02 Brian Rose: Yeah, I’m guessing you roll through that.
39:04 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, I do. I’m like, no, no, I am actually the speaker. So there’s, and I’m a very petite woman and some people think I look quite young. So again, that all doesn’t help in terms of your authority.
39:16 But I think also if you’re smart and you know what you’re talking about, then people immediately switch on. And I think the benefit for me is that A, I can walk up to anybody in any room and they’re more likely to remember me because purely because I’m a woman. And B, I get a lot of opportunities to talk. So on a hardware panel or on stage, in those kind of situations, maybe people are looking for the woman. People have actually said to me, we want a woman on the panel and that annoys me because they shouldn’t want me because I’m a woman, they should want me because I’m a voice of whatever.
39:51 Brian Rose: But you still go, you embrace it to a certain extent.
39:54 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, because I don’t think it would do me well to knock those opportunities away because if you just look at it as an opportunity, it’s still a way for me to get my voice out there and to get Indiegogo’s message out there. And at the end of the day, I think if you’re smart, then people will still listen to you.
40:11 Brian Rose: Okay, what was the tone of the women in tech dinner? What kind of things were discussed?
40:16 Anastasia Emmanuel: There was Chatham House rules, so I actually can’t talk about it. Oh, man. But it was, I mean, it was talking about these issues. You know, what can we, how do people feel, you know, what can we do to improve the situation? Is there things that we can help?
40:29 Can we encourage more women to get into technology, that’s the positive side of it. You know, can we get more women into engineering? Can we tell women that actually it’s an amazing industry to be in and not have this kind of snobbery of, if you can’t code, you’re not really a woman in tech.
40:45 Brian Rose: Right, we had like Sandy Carter from IBM here or someone that said that the percentage of women coding or girls coding was going down and I was like, what are you talking about?
40:54 I thought it was going up and like, I don’t know. It’s not necessarily, I mean, it seems to be going right way but not necessarily as fast?
41:02 Anastasia Emmanuel: I mean things never happen as fast as people want them to. I think that there’s I think we’re going in the right direction. I think there’s several structural changes and certain things that need to happen at a corporate level and an education level so that there’s going to be a major change but people are trying which you know I like it’s very easy to be cynical Brits are very cynical but I think sometimes you have to look at the positive and you know like on Indiegogo we’ve seen amazing female projects and again it’s one of the reasons that I love the company is because it’s leveling the playing field for everybody so if you look at the amount of VC money that goes into female led startups in the US it’s 15% here it’s even less and of all successful Indiegogo campaigns 47% are led by women
41:47 Brian Rose: so in the crowd that’s a crowd talking again
41:50 Anastasia Emmanuel: so exactly so yeah well people are investing in the ideas and also the crowd is much more representative of society.
41:56 Brian Rose: Right, because they’re not the VCs with the track record of investing in the male.
42:01 Anastasia Emmanuel: Who happen to be men of a certain age, of a certain background, who want to invest in things that are safe that, you know, that they’re used to and they’re familiar with.
42:10 Brian Rose: Okay, let me ask you a question about us Brits, because I am British by the way. Your accent sounds a little dodgy. Whatever, that was the old days. But do we work hard enough in Britain? I mean you work for an American company.
42:22 I’m sure you get their opinion all the time. Do we? In general. In the tech industry, like do you think the Americans are like, ah, damn, they’re left the office again, those guys in Indiegogo, London, or do you think in the tech, yeah, no, you’re in the office now, do you think in the tech industry here we don’t work hard enough or not?
42:43 Anastasia Emmanuel: I can only really talk about my experience, so the people that are around me, and they work really hard, and so if you’ve You’ve always looked at kind of a European versus American mentality for work ethic.
42:56 Anastasia Emmanuel: It is different. Americans have no holiday. It’s like there’s no legal holiday. You don’t actually have to give people holiday. It’s worse.
43:05 It’s like an ostracization. You can’t say that you’re on holiday because that would imply that you’re not always working and then Americans judge you. It’s really shocking. That’s crazy. I know.
43:15 Brian Rose: That’s what I love. See, I think that working all the time is bad.
43:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: I am completely guilty of it. I work crazy hours, you know, every night, every weekend, my boyfriend hates me. I’m a bad friend, I’m a bad daughter.
43:30 And, you know, it’s because I genuinely believe that I’m trying to change something and I’m really passionate about it and I want to do it. And so, you know, out of my character, I’m very all or nothing. Maybe that’s why I work well at an American company. But equally, I see the negative in that, you know, I’m burning out and I can’t give everything to, you know, some parts of my job and I’m neglecting other parts of my life and I think that balance is important. I think that people get really, really judging over people who go home and spend time with their families and focus on love or focus on, you know, enjoyment and hobbies. And actually Denae spoke about this recently and she said about how it’s, you know, so important to put some time for those parts of your life and it will actually make you a better business person. So I think that we do work hard enough. I think that there’s always a balance. If you’re working for yourself you’re always gonna work ten times harder because it’s your you have so much skin in the game like you know free mortgage your house or whatever and so you’re gonna be working a lot harder than say a corporate person who can go home at 5 p.m.
44:33 Brian Rose: Yeah there’s a term in technology called technology debt or management debt and it’s this whole concept that if you like squeeze a company you know like Indiegogo with like a short staff that you’re gonna end up paying for it later or if you
44:46 Squeeze them with tech you’re gonna end up paying for it later and I think it’s definitely true in your personal life if you don’t have that balance you cannot redline it for that long so you’re gonna blow up or your relationships gonna blow up and then you’re gonna hang yourself I won’t get don’t get in there I can go there quick um Anastasia we always ask everyone here a few questions at the end I’m gonna ask you and I won’t adjust the the years at all but if you can make a phone call to the 20 year old Anastasia I guess you’re still if it leads maybe not I don’t know and give her a bit of advice what would you tell that young lady
45:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: I would say we’re professionals here be fearless don’t second-guess yourself this is something that happens as a woman a lot and I’ve discussed it with other women is the lean-in kind of Sheryl Sandberg thing yeah okay like women second-guess everything that they do you know if you’re offered a job or you’re asked to do something unless you’re very sure that you could you can do it you don’t want to do it a man will see an opportunity they would even spend 10 seconds figuring out whether they can do it they just say yes and I think and I’ve learned over the last few years that that’s actually the approach to take like you know if as long as you’re smart you can figure out anything and so I would say to my 20 year old self be fearless just go for it jump right in always aim higher than what you think
46:03 You can achieve because you’re better than you probably think you are and and never underestimate relationships. So my entire career has come from relationships. I’ve never been to an interview, I’ve never applied for a job, I probably would never get employed by a corporate company and it’s been completely down to the relationships I’ve built and it happened very naturally back then. You know, it’s the whole helping each other, being part of an industry, but back then I didn’t know what was happening and now at 29 I have an amazing career, amazing network And so I would I place even more value on that network.
46:43 Brian Rose: Good good good advice What is the best advice you have received business or personal?
46:48 Anastasia Emmanuel: It’s actually not advice I received so I’ve had it third party but it was actually Danae our founder her father gave her this advice and When she said it it really resonated. So her father said that the world will continually say no because it’s the scared of change and it will continually push back and it’s your job as an entrepreneur to keep saying yes and to keep pushing back because the world doesn’t like change it likes to stay the same.
47:16 Brian Rose: Yeah no it’s so true even the people around you that love you will actually resist you changing sometimes and I felt it when I went to do these shows I had I left banking and I had all my banking guys calling me up They’re like, Brian, what are you doing?
47:32 And I’m like, I’m the one that’s unemployed. Why are you worrying about it? And everyone was worried about what I was changing in. So it’s kind of strange. And you’re right, there is that resistance.
47:40 Anastasia Emmanuel: You have to trust your gut. That’s another piece of advice. Trust your instinct, because you’re probably right. And if you’re not happy doing what you’re doing, you won’t be very good at it. And your subconscious is telling you lots of things on an instinctual level that you can’t always figure out cognitively.
47:55 Brian Rose: So last part of that question, to the 20-year-old that’s listening around the world, that dreams of being you, that dreams of coming to London and having your position at Indiegogo or at Texting News, what advice do you give them if they wanna be involved, get involved in tech community? What do you tell them?
48:12 Anastasia Emmanuel: Just do it. It’s really not that hard to get involved in a tech scene or in an industry, particularly the startup scene. There are meetups every single night and the people that are there, they just wanna grab a beer and talk and they will help you.
48:26 So just get yourself out there, stop being scared or at least fake it till you make it. That’s probably actually the best piece of advice I’ve ever got given. I’m still doing it.
48:37 Brian Rose: You sound like an American without the accent here. I know.
48:41 Anastasia Emmanuel: Another really good piece of advice actually I just heard is that when you realize that everyone else in the room is also faking it and doesn’t know what they’re doing, that’s when you’ll be able to conquer the world because everyone’s in the same boat. So I would say to any 20-year-olds or 25-year-olds out there who are scared of doing it, the same way that I wanted to get into presenting and I had no idea how, I just jumped into it. I picked up a microphone, I started working with newspaper, I had no idea about technology, I just got in front of the camera and did it and figured it out along the way.
49:12 So I would say, meet as many people as you can, try and find mentors, not through an official mental program, but find people that you respect, that you look up to who you wanna be in six months and who you wanna be in five years and ask them advice, like listen to what they’re saying to you. Just like put yourself completely and 100% out there.
49:31 Brian Rose: Well, well said. I’m gonna put one caveat on that, is that I agree you need to take action and you need to stop reading a book about it.
49:39 You need to stop watching a podcast about it and you need to stop researching it and Googling it. You need to actually do it. And I find a lot of times I get emails from people saying, I wanna know what camera you use for the podcast. I’m just like, that is, it’s actually a procrastination in disguise. When you ask someone a question, it seems like you’re researching it, But, I know, it’s a form of co-host nation.
49:58 Anyways. Bravenson says that, right? Just do it. He says just do it. I think he swears in it, but we won’t say that.
50:02 Anastasia Emmanuel: Oh, okay. You know you just told people to stop watching your podcast, didn’t you?
50:05 Brian Rose: Did I?
50:05 Anastasia Emmanuel: Yeah, you were like, you know, stop watching podcasts, just do it.
50:08 Brian Rose: I’m gonna fall on that sword.
50:09 If it’ll get some action out there, that’s awesome. Anastasia, this has been even better than I thought it would be. What’s the best way for people to contact you? Email, Twitter, you guys hiring, all the usual stuff.
50:20 Anastasia Emmanuel: So, if you have an idea that you wanna get out there within hardware and tech and design, even if it’s something else, I can send you to the right place.
50:27 Email me at anastasia at indiegogo.com. I’m on Twitter, I love Twitter, at minianastasia, cause I’m very small.
50:33 Brian Rose: You are small, I thought you’d be much taller.
50:35 Anastasia Emmanuel: Oh, this is what, you know, that’s the one thing that people always say when they meet me. They’re like, the camera makes you look so tall and you’re like such a tiny, tiny person.
50:45 Yeah, I know, that’s why I do camera work. Right, yeah. But please get in touch with me. I am generally very open to sharing my thoughts or giving you help And if I can help you in any way, I probably will. So please reach out, and I do love coffee, so.
50:59 Brian Rose: Yeah, I know. She just had some bulletproof coffee. Well, we’ll talk about that. It was amazing. There you go.
51:04 Anastasia Emmanuel: 100% success rate on that. Not to endorse that product, but it was amazing.
51:08 Brian Rose: Fantastic, thank you so much. If you’re listening to us on iTunes, you can see the extremely good-looking Anastasia, and I’m looking pretty good, too, on our YouTube channel. And what else can I say?
51:17 We’re putting out one-minute trailers now on Friday at 2 p.m., so you can watch the latest guest, and then go out and talk rubbish about them and you’re having drinks. So we’re doing that, and then we drop our audios on Mondays, our full episodes on Tuesdays, and of course we have the live shows on Friday afternoon. So check that out, we’re on Twitter, Facebook, all that good stuff. Anastasia, you are a true asset to the London technology community. You’re a great face.
51:37 Just keep doing what you’re doing. It was so great to have you. We say on Silicon Real, it’s about the people. Need I say more. I wish you all the best.
51:45 Anastasia Emmanuel: Thank you very much, Brad. Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you very much. I’m off to you, Turkey, all right? Take care.
51:58 Brian Rose: This week on Silicon Reel, Matt Berry, Freelancer.com.
52:01 Matt Berry: The GDP of Freelancer is actually larger than some nation states. This is like an eBay for jobs. We have a population that just overtook Sweden and Norway. This is really an aspirational brand in the developing world.
52:15 It’s just amazing company to run in terms of, you know, what we’re actually doing in the world. We empower entrepreneurs on two sides of the world. All the pain, the time, the hassle, and the cost of turning your ideas and inspiration In reality, we take that away. The cost is about 10 to 20% of what you would normally expect to pay. We’ve been cashflow positive in this business ever since it began.
52:36 We had about $300 million of interest in a $15 million IPO. The business is flying. Every single industry is waking up somewhat disruptively to discover it’s now dominated by a software business. Every job that you can think of, particularly white collar jobs, is heading to software. We are in the very, very, very early stages of replicating the first country in software.
52:53 Brian Rose: On Monday, Silicon Real presents, Matt Berry, freelancer.com.
