Alex MacPherson - Octopus Ventures

Full transcript: Alex MacPherson on London Real

0:06 Brian Rose: This week on Silicon Real, we have Alex MacPherson of Octopus Ventures.

0:17 Alex MacPherson: There’s been a number of businesses in both the UK and Europe that have gone on to become really, really big businesses and the entrepreneurs becoming role models for others in the space.

0:44 Brian Rose: Do you spend time in the Valley? Yeah. How much time?

0:52 Alex MacPherson: Not enough.

0:53 Brian Rose: Silicon Real presents Alex McPherson, Octopus Ventures. This is Silicon Real, the program dedicated to the people of the London technology startup scene. My guest today is Alex McPherson, who is the head of the Ventures team at Octopus Investments, a London-based venture capital investor with £5 billion under management, with investments in UK companies such as Zoopla, SwiftKey, Grays, Wyplan, and Secret Escapes. You have over 15 years of experience in venture capital, all started by founding Catalyst Ventures with three guys in a pub in Cambridge.

1:30 Octopus has invested in 63 companies, two IPOs, 12 acquisitions, welcome to Silicon Rail.

1:35 Alex MacPherson: Thank you very much. Delighted to be here.

1:38 Brian Rose: I’m so glad you’re here. I’ve been really fortunate over the last couple of years to sit down with some of the partners in some of the great VC companies here in London, and I tried to make sure I talked to all of them.

1:50 I kind of wanted to give them all my list, so I’m glad we got you here. Finally I’ve got to sit down with the guys at Index, at Excel, Baldertown Capital, J.S. Spree. I got to sit down with Eazy Vidra before he was at Google Ventures, so I think that counts. And the smaller guys like Playfair, Hockston, Forward Partners, and of course Debu, Prokaryastha at Octopus, your entrepreneur in residence. Love Debu. Great energy there.

2:14 And it’s been fascinating for me to learn about what it’s like to be a VC because I think the world and a lot of startups that are watching this either have or used to have this perception that you’re kind of way up on this mountain and you’re kind of choosing the ones that are allowed to kind of come forward and yet the more I get to know guys like you, the more I understand that you have your own PR problem as in you really want to get out there and let people know what you’re all about and let people know you’re actually approachable and let people know that you want a personal relationship with them. You gave a presentation about three years ago where you put up a picture with a shark and a swimmer. And you said most startups have this idea that’s the relationship with VCs.

2:57 So I was wondering if you could tell me about that shark and swimmer picture and what it’s like to try to change the image of VC.

3:06 Alex MacPherson: Well, thank you so much for raising that shark and swimmer point.

3:11 The reality is when we invest in a small team, a group of entrepreneurs, it’s all about the relationship and it’s all about the people. So, you know, as an entrepreneur coming into us is, what we wanna back is great people who, and an entrepreneur who’s gonna be a talent magnet. So how’s he gonna attract the really, really best people in order to go out and execute on their business plan and their aspirations, frankly, as well? And then it’s both down to the relationship and how can we best help them to go and do that?

3:49 So the sort of concept of it being, this antagonistic relationship is actually completely wrong. You know, when you enter into an investment for an entrepreneur, really, really important to pick your VC because they’re gonna be sat around that table with you for five, six, seven, you know, maybe longer.

4:09 Brian Rose: Longer than a marriage.

4:11 Alex MacPherson: It is, and I would always turn around and say it’s a little bit like a marriage. I think the one subtle difference that says that a marriage is that at some point there’s likely to be some form of divorce when we as bench capitalists want to make a realization.

4:28 That may be just selling some of our state, but may also be a matter of coming out entirely, not whether that’s selling to another business, an IPO, all of those sort of things.

4:37 Brian Rose: And one thing unique about you is you’re always up front. You’re saying at some point there will be a divorce, whether it’s an IPO or that kind of thing.

4:45 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, at the end of the day, our clients, So we look at our client base as, or our customers, as on the one side is the entrepreneur, and how do we make them great?

4:54 How can we help them be great? How can, you know, what services can we help them with? And on the other side, though, critically, is we got fundraising. We actually go out every year to our customer base and say, will you give us some more money? And in order to ensure that they’re happy about that, that yes, you need to deliver returns back to them.

5:18 You need to, you know, recirculate that cash to them over a period of time. So, you know, getting that sort of understanding as well is, you know, we sit in front of some people who are then giving us the money to invest, you know, into those entrepreneurs. So we also know what it feels like on the other side. Which is something that’s often forgotten actually.

5:37 Brian Rose: Yeah, I think people forget that you raise money as well.

5:40 Yeah. And so you just announced your new fund, $140 million that’s gonna be spent in Europe, correct? And so you had to raise that fund. How much of your time does that go into? Is that a few year venture?

5:54 If it’s a percent of your work day, is it 20% of your time or?

5:59 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, it’s an interesting one. So we’re really lucky at Arctopus because we have our venture capital funds, the early stage funds, where we raise those funds from the retail investors. the retail investors, so individuals who are writing a check. And we have almost a machine, an optimist, that goes out and helps raise that through the independent financial advisor community, the wealth managers.

6:27 And we raise each year in that format, and we raise about 50 million sterling each year, maybe a little bit more. And that I know was asked to back, hopefully those, you know, great, very early stage, and what they say, the sort of first institutional round of funding.

6:44 Brian Rose: Is there a Series A round?

6:46 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, so that sort of seed, you know, if we find a great team that we love, you know, you mentioned Secret Escapes, I mean, we invested in those guys off the page, and then we’ve been able to back them the whole way through.

7:00 But what we realized is that if you wanna create really big businesses in Europe, So you need funds at a later stage, or that’s sort of what he described as growth stage, in order to take them further. And that’s where we’ve raised the most recent fund from institutions, which is designed to take the best businesses from our ventures, port failure, back then further, and actually, Secret Escapes was the first investment we made in order then to hopefully become, you know, multi-hundred million pound, if not, you know, billion pound, billion dollar, businesses as you go forward and really help that European entrepreneur build big businesses on a global basis and that’s actually where the opportunity is today.

7:49 Brian Rose: You said secret escapes came off the page and I just wanted to know why.

7:54 When you saw it, I believe it’s kind of a membership only luxury travel play. You invested in that early fund, kind of that 50 million fund as well as the secondary fund.

8:06 Alex MacPherson: So from the, let me tell you the story and separate it how it is, so our venture funds in total are about $220, $230 million sterling at the moment. But what we do is we raise another $50 million each year. So that gives us the far path to make investment.

8:23 So when Secret Escape first came to us, we invested from that fund, which was smaller at the time, because we’ve raised money over the period. And we invested just a few hundred thousand. And why did we get excited about secret? All about the people. All about the individuals.

8:44 So it was a guy called Alex Saint and Tom Valentine, who came in. But it was introduced to us by William Reeve, who we’d worked with when we’ve been investors in love film. And we knew William. And he came to us, and he had worked with Alex and Tom. And so I said, look, here’s a business I think that’s really interesting.

9:07 And they were coming, Alex and his co-founders were coming out of a different business, and Tom was going to join them in order to create secret escapes. And we liked the people, we liked the concept. So we made, they were doing a seed round of Angel Investing, which we joined nine months later. They came back for the Series A round, and we invested again. That’s more like a couple million pounds.

9:39 Yeah, so I think we did a million and a half at that particular stage. Then a year after that, they came back for a Series B round. And we sat down with them, and another investor came in, And we invested another million and a half. The business then developed further, expanded out into Europe. And then just recently, Google came in and invested in the Series C. And we invested again into that round using that institutional fund this time.

10:13 Because it’s grown beyond the mandate of the venture funds. And the venture funds still invest, or are still invested, shall I say. But the far path from the new fund enables us to continue to back what we regard as unusually talented entrepreneurs looking to create a large global business. So again, from Europe now to the US. And they will certainly look at what are the opportunities in Asia as well as in the world.

10:42 Brian Rose: I want to ask you what it’s like to invest alongside Google Ventures and Easy and the folks over there. But for the people that are listening, if you had to say right off the page why secret escapes. There are three things that come to mind. It’s got this, this, and this. And also, I’m guessing within 60 seconds of meeting the founders, you would make a yes or no decision.

11:01 Alex MacPherson: I mean, 60 seconds, I’d love to say yes. So I think you get those first impressions where you have people come in the room and what they’re saying to you, and then it’s the verification point of what they’ve been saying, and are you comfortable with it?

11:20 Brian Rose: So is it as simple as saying in 60 seconds you’re totally sold?

11:25 Alex MacPherson: I think there’s a winningness and understanding of where you feel this is going and then it’s about verifying what they’re saying, how they’re answering the question and taking it forward.

11:39 Reality is we’re VCs and actually we can also be sold to so going through the process and testing and seeing how they go about executing on their plan as they go forward. And if you think about it from our perspective, when we first invested, it was a few hundred thousand pounds. Our last investment round was multiples of tens of millions. And you sort of go, well, if it hadn’t worked out to start with, what were we risking? But then building the relationship, seeing how they execute, gives you then the confidence to invest further, keep on backing them, and continue to do that.

12:21 So you end up with what we describe as a significant minority stake in the business, which is what we as VC, and it’s a partnership. It’s working with them, and with those guys, actually, some of the best thing we can do is get out of the way. Let them get on and execute. They do it brilliantly. So it’s how can we help?

12:44 How can we make them great? What is some introductions we can make? But also, if they’re doing it, let them get on with it. Don’t confuse the issue.

12:57 Brian Rose: Yeah, right.

12:58 And I know that’s a key part of your job, leaving some people alone. Google Ventures announced a European fund a year ago, I believe. Easy left the campus to go do that. When you see a fund like that, part of you must say competition. And part of you must say collaboration opportunity.

13:15 In this case, you partner with them. What’s it like when you see someone new getting into the space, especially someone with potentially a lot of money? It said it was, I don’t know, $100 million at the time. But you know there’s more money behind that. So how does that go through your mind, honestly?

13:31 Alex MacPherson: But I think what’s been amazing is I’ve been doing venture now for 15 years. And you see the change that’s happened. And this massive shift really posts the economic crisis of the willingness of students, whether that be from MBAs, undergraduates, and the willingness to adopt entrepreneurship as part of their careers. And I think there’s a recognition that students coming out will have entrepreneurship or working in a small business, high growth small business, at some point in their career as a part of it.

14:14 The days of going and joining one firm for the life of people’s careers is still, I think I know one or maybe two people who have done that. But that used to be the norm the generation before. Now it’s kind of alien. So you’ve seen this shift in terms of attitude towards entrepreneurship. You’ve seen what’s happened around us here with regards to Tech City, where the government helped set it up, kind of then let the private sector get on with it.

14:49 And it’s created an environment, again, as an attracting talent in at the same time that there’s been a number of businesses in both the UK and Europe that have gone on to become really, really big businesses and the entrepreneurs becoming role models for others in the space. So the whole ecosystem is changing. You’ve got serial entrepreneurs. You’ve got a wider range of investing community. There’s been lots of seed funds created, a number of which you’ve mentioned with regards to who’ve come on your show to talk about.

15:27 But is the whole ecosystem there? I would go, question mark, have we got the later stage funds in order to back those businesses and give the confidence to the founders and the entrepreneurs to really go for it, I think that’s something that’s been lacking in Europe. So Google coming in, new fund confidence in the European entrepreneurial ecosystem, really, really valuable.

15:56 Brian Rose: Is it collaboration and also competition?

15:59 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, absolutely, that’s the world we live in.

16:03 One day it’s gonna be, how can we work with you? next day will be, you know, slightly we’re competing with you over this transaction. But if we can create big businesses created by Europe and entrepreneurs addressing global markets, that’s going to bring more capital into Europe and a lot of money thrown in, probably a lot of ideas that might not be here in five years.

16:47 Brian Rose: Has the quality of the pitch gone up or gone down from, say, five years ago?

16:56 Alex MacPherson: I think the number of quality people who are attracted to the space, and that’s either them doing their own startup or joining a team and filling out that team with a broader skill set has increased.

17:20 And that’s what’s exciting. And we’re lucky in London, because London’s a great city to come and live in. And so it attracts talent from across Europe. If I think of the tech teams, they’re multinational. So you want great people.

17:44 And that’s really, really important for the whole scene. Because it’s people that create great businesses, not the underlying technology. Actually, it’s how they go about it and the way they’re then getting their product to market.

17:59 Brian Rose: Three quick pieces of advice you would give to someone who’s coming to pitch you. I’m sure you’ve given this many, many times, but a lot of people would wanna hear it from the man himself.

18:11 Maybe they’re pet peeves, or maybe they’re just really good things that could help people. What would those be?

18:19 Alex MacPherson: Relax. First off is it’s another meeting. And I think the other thing is don’t over-complicate.

18:26 So certainly those first meetings is get us excited, be passionate, show the vision, and then fill in the detail behind that, because actually if you can show us in terms of what the opportunity is, then it’s just a matter of how do you go about executing on that and how do you fill in the pieces. I think the other big thing is that if you can show why the the team is a sort of, you know, rounded team in terms of the complements of skills, that’s incredibly valuable. So it’s as much, the best entrepreneurs know, they know what they’re good at, they know what they’re not so good at, but they also know what great talent looks like and how to go and attract those and, you know, bring those sort of people into their business and that’s what really excites us.

19:19 Brian Rose: Relax vision execution execution team I was told by one person that the team says so much about your business because if you can attract talent to your vision that’s it

19:31 Alex MacPherson: absolutely you know in terms of if you’ve got a great idea and you’ve got you know guts or you need to then you know go and you know build up in a product well you need to go and attract a great team and there’s sales as such is it is probably the wrong word but actually you’re you’re selling your vision for that to your employees you’re selling that vision to your investors there everybody’s a stakeholder and then you’re selling actually the product itself to your customer base so the way in which you can communicate that vision and that excitement about what you can do for them and how you solve that issue problem, need is really critical and if you if you can bring those people in and you bring people in who do it better than you do then you are likely to have a great team you’re likely therefore things just happen more easily.

20:29 Brian Rose: Should people practice a one-minute pitch should they have it ready at all times?

20:35 Alex MacPherson: I you know I think this there’s always been lots of said about elevator pitches and you You can, there’s a danger with some complex, you know, whether it’s technology or new product that actually that can be too simplistic, but it actually at the end of the day, I mean we always say is, you know, can you write it on the back of a business card?

20:59 And can you get your message here, you know, your key message across in terms of what it is that you do on the back of a business card?

21:08 Brian Rose: Right, I was told so your grandmother can understand it.

21:12 Alex MacPherson: And you know, we have, I mean, an octopus in terms of, you know, we have a grandma and granddad test, which is, can you explain this as simply so that they will understand it?

21:23 Brian Rose: I mean, it’s a great test. Yeah.

21:25 I’ve had a few people in the chair that have point blank told me, Brian, we don’t need to think about the market in the US. And some have said it with a straight face, you know, Damien Kimmel, when he talks about I believe him, Nick, if you know Nutmeg, I know that’s not on their radar, or it wasn’t. But you know, do you believe that’s true, or do you believe that, at least for the businesses that you invest in, that you’re at some point going to have to cross emotions with?

22:16 You know, larger markets in, you know, the Eastern Asia, which, you know, is something that people are, you know, concerned about.

22:25 Alex MacPherson: think it’s actually really challenging to go. It’s your question, though. Do you need to think about it? There are very few sectors, funny enough, actually property is probably one of them. I’m thinking of Zoopla, where actually you can build a really big business just dealing with the UK property market. And Alex Chesterman, the founder there, has done that, you know, really, really successfully. But that’s been a big win.

22:56 That’s been a great win for us. It’s, you know, if you think we invested in January 2009, you know, before they sort of launched their product, IPO’d last year for about a billion and a half dollars. I mean, you know, fantastic. And it’s been, you know, it’s genuine, you’re talking about cash out and returning money to your or other customer base in terms of investors, absolutely, it’s been fantastic. But most businesses, you’re gonna need to address a wider market, so you think of secret escapes, which, yes, from the consumer side, provides access to discounted hotel rooms.

23:35 But the market that they’re really addressing is how as a hotel do I manage my inventory to make sure that I have the certain right amount of occupancy? And therefore, I can place on secret escapes for two months’ time, three months’ time, where I feel normally that this time of year, I should be at 60% occupancy. And I see that I’m not that. I can then get my occupancy rates up in order to make sure that I’ve got a customer base who are coming in who are, one, using the rooms, two, spending money in the bar, eating in the restaurant.

24:14 And if it’s one of the spa hotels, spending money in the spa. So you’re actually solving a problem on behalf of the hotels. Well, that applies in Europe, it applies in the international markets and that enables them to start to address different markets. So I think if you look at our portfolio, we have 40% of our businesses have permanent operations in the US. And how can we help them is go, But how are you going to go and address that market?

24:47 Because as European entrepreneurs, people anticipate and understand that actually, if you’re going to deal with the Nordics, deal with Germany, deal with France, different languages, different culture, and the willingness to change and adapt your products in those markets. Going to the US, UK entrepreneurs often make the mistake thinking, well, they speak English. reality it’s completely different language the way you need to sell the way you need to promote yourself is you know put away any humility you know if you’re gonna go go with conviction you know really you know you don’t send a shy retiring Brit out there saying oh tell me you know tell me sorry would you would you mind having a look at my product no no no that’s not gonna fly you’re gonna need Americans talking Americans and so go with conviction go there and establish it. And then you’ve got a big, big opportunity. I think we’re starting to see, but I think it’s going to be in the next 18 months, two years, that challenge to some of our portfolio businesses saying, why are you going stateside? Why aren’t you going towards Asia? How can you look to address those markets? Big, big consumer markets.

26:06 And it’s not saying you definitely should be opening up there, but shouldn’t you be exploring that as some of the options that you have, and we’re starting to see that. We’ve got some of our businesses there in Singapore, Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, down to Australia as well, and clearly you’ve got this massive market with regards to China, probably harder for some of the B2C businesses, or consumer businesses, but providing services to some of those companies? Absolutely. We talk about fintech. By way of example, the Chinese announced the opening up of the mutual fund recognition scheme between China and Hong Kong, with the stated aim of rolling it out to Singapore, Australia and London going forward. And so one of our businesses, Calistone, it provides messaging services into the mutual fund market, well, they can almost be the pipe that plugs into China to provide those messages coming out.

27:13 Huge opportunity. They’re already in Taipei and Hong Kong, so it’s a short step to having a service for the Chinese market as well.

27:22 Brian Rose: I’ve spoken to nearly 100 founders and CEOs of the market here in London, and the number of times Asia has come up, like, less than this. And that’s always fascinating to me, it just doesn’t come up because it’s not on the radar. Obviously Europe is sometimes Brazil is South America, maybe a blah blah car or something is looking around there, maybe in North Africa, America always.

27:48 Alex MacPherson: But maybe that is changing. And I think this is one of the things that we can challenge. It’s not to say that our entrepreneurs should definitely go into it, but they should be starting to think about it. If I use the example where they say the US experience is having the framework to make it easy for the next group of entrepreneurs to go there, where you’ve got that base of knowledge and experience that they can leverage off, how can we do the same into the Asian market?

28:20 It’s fascinating. The Singapore government, who I think we had all of, it slightly sucked our teeth went in, what was it, the mid-90s, maybe even late-90s, they said, you know, we are going to have the best airline in the world, we are going to be the busiest portion of the world. And we turned around and said, you know, hold on, you know, let’s get real, you know, this little island. You know, they got a state of name to be the hub for Southeast Asia of entrepreneurial talent.

28:46 And it’s not going to say that all the business is going to be there, but it’s the launch pad into the landing zone for them to address the Malaysian, Indonesian, Philippines, Vietnam, those markets. And I wouldn’t bet against them. And if you’ve got these expanding consumer spending power happening there, it’s going to be markets that you can’t ignore.

29:14 Brian Rose: Let’s talk about the Americans. I used to be an American.

29:18 I say that with love. I still am in America. You’ve cut those ties. I’m a dual citizen, as we say. But what have you learned from the Americans?

29:27 And what are some of the lessons you learned, mistakes you made, going to America? You know, I’ve had, I had read Sis in here from Waipa and I know they went a couple years ago. I think he was just gone when we talked to him. But what have you learned and like mistakes you made or realizations by going there? You said a little bit earlier, but can you expand that?

29:43 Alex MacPherson: I think in Europe we’ve got a developing text in an entrepreneurial ecosystem and the reality is in the Valley particularly you have that established ecosystem. So doing it, scaling businesses and that sort of conviction is something that I think we is in Europe are learning from. I would turn around and say, first off, if we’ve got a team who are looking to go and address the US market is going, first off, where’s your CEO going to be based?

30:22 Brian Rose: Yeah, because Ritsis went to New York, didn’t he?

30:26 Alex MacPherson: He did, indeed. I heard that. I was like, OK, that’s fine. But if you’re going to, I don’t know, send one of the team on their own to go out there, it’s just not going to happen. So go and do the research.

30:42 Understand what it’s going to mean. Also start to appreciate some of the psychology that’s going to be going on. Anybody who comes in for an interview is always the number one or the number two employee at this particular meeting. You think, these guys are great, they’re fantastic. But everybody in the States has done show and tell.

31:01 They’ve stood on a stage and they have sold themselves from a very young age with regards to it. And they are the best at it. And so, appreciate that’s going to be the case. So, those differences is, understand that. I think the businesses have done it well, and I think of a business like Grades, the snack food business.

31:24 So, you know, they researched the market. To start with, they supplied the boxes of food from the UK, rather than setting up operations. And then they turned around and said, right, if we’re going to do this, we are going to do it properly. And so established their center in New Jersey. Some of the learnings that they took was actually, New Jersey isn’t necessarily the most popular place to work if you happen to be in marketing.

31:58 And I think they soon realized they were going to have to have both the New Jersey warehouse as an Manhattan office as well, which is what they have. Little things, which are some of the problems with regards to employment law. What’s a 401k? What are those? How can you take some of the headache that’s associated with that?

32:22 Because if you’re trying to launch a business, you don’t really want to be dealing with those sorts of things. That hurts your business if you’re spending 25% of your time on it.

32:31 Brian Rose: Absolutely. But that also becomes IP for you.

32:33 Alex MacPherson: Precisely so then how because I in that’s the whole piece of going actually How can we help them land and then for you know concentrate on the business?

32:41 You know office space do you know you start in you know? We work office you then it you know look to expand out Afterwards so you know I said go with conviction is if you’re gonna go You know do it properly don’t do it half-heartedly you know how locally as you expand out and understand actually the new if you’re going to land in New York you know the salaries are going to be 30% higher if you land in the valley and you want tech talent and anticipate you know slightly different basis so understand that before you go I think the the other aspect is if you’re going to have dual locations eight hours is a big time difference you know five hours is a lot easier. So where are you going to land? Now it is going to depend and then what’s your strategy as you go forward? So think through that sort of process with regards to it because going from East Coast to West Coast is a lot easier than you know straight to West Coast. Some of the businesses, so I mean Swiftkey for instance, yeah absolutely it should be in the valley, it’s a very tech-centric business, you know, rather than being East Coast. So, you know, there are, there’s differences. I always remember being sat listening to, you know, some of the large VCs in the Valley, you know, sort of chatting and somebody asked, you know, do you think you’re a little bit, you know, Californian-focused? And they said, yeah, you know, we worry about that. And, you know, maybe we should, you know, we should think about how this

34:19 This goes down in, you know, Idaho or Wisconsin, so I was like, hey, you know, hold on, there’s a world out there. I call it the echo chamber, right? Yeah, and you sort of go, and for us, don’t try and out-California and the Californians. They do that pretty well.

34:35 Brian Rose: Do you spend time in the Valley?

34:37 Yeah. How much time?

34:39 Alex MacPherson: Not enough. Funny, I mean, I do blocks of weeks, and that’s, you know, so I spend time in the state, both east and west coast. Finally off I’m going next week to east coast, the week after I go to the west coast. We now have a venture partner who’s based out on the west coast.

34:59 We’ve got a, to describe it as a tour is too great, but we’ve got nine or ten of our portfolio businesses going to the west coast in ten days’ time to meet some of the VCs, the corporates, some of the advisors, so they can hear from the horse’s mouth as to what you need to look like in order to land. So personally, do I spend enough time out there? No, of course not. But that’s, you know, we as a team and where 18 to 20 people now spend time at our business is there.

35:43 Brian Rose: When you’re out in the valley and you’re down at the Fairmont Hotel and you bump into your equivalent down at the bar, whether it’s Ben Horowitz or this guy, and then you look at the guy and you say, hmm, he’s different than I am. And I could probably learn this from him and I don’t want to be like this. And as candid as you can be, but the Americans obviously have a reputation for being maybe more risk averse, maybe for more shooting from the hip. The downside is they call it an echo chamber to a certain extent.

36:15 They don’t have this exposure to all of these different challenges. And you’ve been in the business for a while. What things are you drawn to and what things are you like, no, we need to stay British in this sense?

36:32 Alex MacPherson: So what do you always take away is the sense of confidence that exists there. And I think from the British side is actually some of the humility.

36:44 Any other success that we’ve had at Oxford is because we’ve been fortunate enough to back really, really great entrepreneurs. And that, whether it’s circumstance, it’s the relationship, and if you have those relationships and they then refer you and you’re, you know, true to yourself. You talked about, you know, being straight-talking, you know, having that relationship, being upfront and honest, you know, in both good times and bad. That’s really, really important. I think the area we probably struggle with is going, you know, where the best things in his life spread means that there is a certain aspect with going, if you’re talking about fundraising, if you’re having conversations with American investors, is not to undersell yourself. So temper some of that. That’s just the different culture, different approach.

37:49 Brian Rose: Does your personality change a bit when you show up in America? Do you get a little bigger, do you think?

38:00 Alex MacPherson: I hope I do.

38:01 Brian Rose: You hope you do.

38:03 Alex MacPherson: I hope in terms of the subtlety with regards to the messaging, absolutely, and it’s more about I rather than we, it’s more about the success.

38:17 So changing that message subtly is actually quite important in the same way that actually if you then go to Asia, you know, again, it’s a completely different culture in terms of, you know, don’t expect to be getting down to business for a few days. Right. Absolutely. There, it’s all about they want to see your character get to know you, which is fascinating because I think a lot of business… Drinking tea. Yeah, drinking tea.

38:48 Brian Rose: I had a friend of mine who was raising money out there and he said, yeah, for three days we just hung out went you know did some sports dinner and I’m like on the third day before he’s about to get on the plane the guy was like so what was that deal you were talking about okay okay yeah let’s do that or something like that they talk a few terms and then that was it but the other thing was a getting to know you process which is fascinating because it might seem very opposite of American but it’s probably the way business was done for thousands of years it’s probably how we all get to know each other

39:26 Alex MacPherson: you want it because you do business with a person to pick and that’s why I come back down to everything is about relationship. You do business with people. You invest in people. And if you have that mutual empathy buy-in to each other, actually you want it to happen. So I think coming to the point sooner, making sure the clear, concise messages, all of those things, yeah, you tweak it with regards to audience. But that’s no different to any entrepreneur who’s going out with a product is work out what your customer base is, how you should be addressing them and then frankly what that sales message is, whether that’s to somebody who’s buying your product, to somebody like myself as an investor, to the great talent who is going to come and join your business, what’s your message, what’s going to appeal to them, and then don’t be afraid to close them down.

40:20 Brian Rose: Three most exciting technology companies in the world right now. Things that might be in the headline, thanks for your like, wow, I want to watch them. Doesn’t mean you would invest in them, or doesn’t mean you believe in anything they do, but you’re like, I got to watch to see what those guys are going to do next. Most exciting tech business is worldwide.

40:38 Alex MacPherson: I mean, Uber springs to my mind, but that’s just me.

40:41 I think it’s going to be really interesting with Uber as we go forward because they’ve been on this incredible journey and they’ve created this platform. What can they then do with this platform that at the moment is being used for taxis? But we talked about Asia, they’ve gone into China big time. WeChat which has what, 400 million daily users have now switched them off and so they’re they’re focusing it towards DD. So how’s that going to affect them?

41:18 If they can make that move to what else can they do on that platform becomes really, really interesting. If it stays as taxis, well, you can see how there’s various opportunities for people to nibble around the edges and start to attack them. And then I sort of go, well, that’s a, they’ve got a lot of growing to do to grow into the valuation. And then I don’t know the numbers, you know, well enough, but-

41:47 Brian Rose: You talk about the way they went into Asia. I mean, Travis goes in blasting.

41:52 That’s what he does. You could argue that that’s the nature of any entrepreneur because that’s how they got into the business was going in blasting, right? You got to break a few rules. You got to get it done. But then there’s also the Airbnb approach, which seems to be a bit more of like, let’s partner, let’s kind of talk to the local authorities.

42:10 I mean, which way is right?

42:13 Alex MacPherson: I think you’ve got to find your own way. You can’t turn around and say any one particular model is right for any one particular jurisdiction as well. So how are you going to go out there and approach it? I mean, I remember being in China recently I sat next to a woman who was at one of the VCs, Crystal Stream, who had spent 11 years at Baidu.

42:45 And she was saying, they woke up every morning, was like, how do I kill Google? That’s all they thought about, is what can we do? How do we kill Google? And that is, you know, and actually, yes, Baidu, yes, in terms of what Google themselves wanted to do, yes, with regards to China, you know, happens. And they are going to compete really, really aggressively with you in that, you know, in China, particularly with regards to consumer markets.

43:25 I think there’s different approaches. I think it’s going to be really interesting to see a business like…

43:30 Brian Rose: Do you think that’s not the healthiest thing to do to get up and say, I want to crush the competition? Do you think you should really be thinking about what you need to do?

43:39 Alex MacPherson: I think you should always be thinking about what you need to do.

43:42 And if you spend your entire life thinking about the competition, are you thinking enough about what you’re doing in order to actually go and deliver? So we would always say to our businesses, focus on what you’re doing, yeah, yeah. Go and chat to the competition, go and find out what they’re doing, because they can certainly find out what you’re up to. Well, go and have a conversation. You’re going to learn information about them.

44:14 What does it mean for the future? Where does that lead to opportunities? If you keep on just being too insular, too small and we’re only doing this little bit, get out there. Bang the drum. I think that’s something that European entrepreneurs can really learn from the U.S. is the value of the marketing, the PR, banging the drum, being on the decks, saying that we can be great is something that can be taken and should be encouraged. So don’t be shy, shrinking violence as such. Actually be happy out there banging in the drama saying we’ve got a big opportunity. But going into a market and saying, I’m going to just go after that competition And it’s, no, do what you do, sing about your praises, go and talk to the competition.

45:12 Because actually competition can often mean, you know, partnership, it can mean opportunity as well. And you know, whether that’s acquisition or parts of the business, you know, who knows what comes out of those conversations.

45:26 Brian Rose: Right, just two of the companies that come to mind are ones that like, I’m watching, or if you cruise onto TechCrunch, you’re like, oh, what are they doing?

45:36 Alex MacPherson: So I was talking to one of the businesses that I was really excited about, you know, last year and who we met up with and they took money, funnily enough, from Andreessen later last year and just in terms of deal structuring we were never going to be able to deal and wish them all to do a deal with them was a business called Improbable and loved the team there, I loved what they were doing in terms of creating their platform and how the entities were interacting in their environment and with other entities and it was originally going to be applied into the gaming industry.

46:13 So always interested to see what their journey is going to be. Very early stage at the moment but was really excited about it and I wish the team there were all the best of the light. They took a really good round from Andreessen in order to move forward. And yeah, that was something that’s probably sort of still under the radar. But was excited about the quality of the people

46:47 And what they were looking to do.

46:50 Brian Rose: If you have one other company.

46:52 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, I’m afraid, you know, I’m going to come back to, you know, one of my R.M. portfolio.

46:59 Brian Rose: I would expect nothing more.

47:01 Alex MacPherson: And actually, when it goes down to it, it’s, you know, I’m clearly, you know, desperately excited about Secret Escapes and what their opportunity is. And can they, you know, go and build a multi-billion dollar business? Absolutely. the way they go about execution is something that, you know, very, very special and think they have that DNA to, you know, build something, you know, very, very large.

47:37 Brian Rose: Excellent.

47:38 There’s… Maybe we’ll have them on the show and their name has come up for the last year or two and people have been talking about them, so.

47:47 Alex MacPherson: There’s… And the other thing is, I know that when we talk about it with regards to Silicon Real is very much focused on the digital side. We also get involved in some of the heart attack business or materials.

48:01 And there’s a business there which we’ve been involved with which has created the blackest material known to mankind called Vantablack. And literally, if you put it on the floor here, it will look like a hole, and you go, you know, what’s happened here? It absorbs 99-point-something percent of light. And you know, you think with regards to, you know, from a commercial application with regards to optics, with regards to telescopes, where you’re looking to remove all excess light.

48:38 But that has also, you know, had the interest of something like Anish Kapoor, where the regards to how can you use it in art forms of using it. And if you think about black as a color, it is actually something that we touch every day. Now, this is a small business developing with carbon nanotubes. And that’s something I feel, you know, we can get hung up about digital and tech enabled businesses. And, you know, we can sometimes forget some of the great science that exists within the universities that then transfers out and where that’s going to in the future.

49:22 Brian Rose: Yeah, we were having a conversation before the show started and we were talking about every company is kind of a media and mobile company first because that’s how it first contacts consumers. But like you were telling me earlier, back in the day when there were phone sales, they weren’t phone companies. So now that there’s internet sales, they shouldn’t be internet companies. You have a very big fund at Octopus which actually puts you in a slightly different camp than say the indexes and Excels of the world that really just specialize in VC.

49:46 You see a lot of investment, don’t you?

49:49 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, and in terms of the areas that we will look across the spectrum, and I think the interesting thing is if you take a Zooker, yeah, it’s using the internet, but actually it addresses the property market. You think of a secret escape, it addresses the hotel travel market. think of a grey snack food through the post, it’s using technology to create the world’s number one healthy snack batch. That’s what it’s looking to do. But are they tech businesses?

50:28 They’re tech enabled, absolutely. Then you come down to, and I think the whole crossover of digital and hardware is fascinating. And if you think about medical devices that now can go inside you that communicate outside, you know, we’re at the start with these things with wearables, but where can that go to? So yes, we will look across that spectrum and hardware’s still hard is the reality of it. So you need to have the you know, the right partners to invest with you need the right ecosystem But if you you get those right partners, then what can you do with those businesses?

51:08 Brian Rose: Yeah, that’s really exciting It’s it’s fascinating because we’ve had a few companies in here like blaze and Kano that produce hardware and that’s a hard job you know and There are rewards for those that win, but it’s a completely different job than producing your product as you know and you know even grades I mean they’re fulfilling you know perishable goods so it’s fascinating to hear their stories because they are

51:36 Alex MacPherson: yeah they’re very rich you know you know their story and you know and the other thing is when we talk about relationships is make sure the relationships are right because you know the likelihood is they’re going to be longer relationship it takes it It just takes more time.

51:55 But as the whole entrepreneurial ecosystem grows, the talent that’s going to go and be applied to those businesses is going to increase. And that sort of opportunity as we go forward is, yeah, it’s really exciting. I just had this funny thought. It’s why I love what I do. Yeah.

52:14 Brian Rose: I just had this funny thought. You’ve been in this business now for 15 years. And I just thought in my head, you were saying there, what goes around must come around. And you must have bumped back into the same people over the course of that time, and you probably will for the next 10 or 15 years. It’s probably a relatively small ecosystem.

52:33 Something like your recent invest with Secret Escapes with Izi Vidra, you’re gonna have a relationship with him for the next 20 years, right? And you guys will be doing this and that. Do you think that’s overlooked sometimes with people new getting into the space?

52:50 Alex MacPherson: One of the things that we’ve been really fortunate about is we were able to invest into back William Reeve and Alex Chesterman when they founded a business that became part of the Love Film Group.

53:03 That was 2003, I think it was, when we made that first investment. But from that group of entrepreneurs, I think we’re on our seventh or eighth business, both Zoopla, Gray, Seacrest Gates were all out of that relationship. So when I talk about serial entrepreneurs and talk about the relationships you have with other venture capitalists is, yeah, it is a venture. What’s interesting is that I wouldn’t say we really, when we were just catalyst ventures, we were a private investor group.

53:41 We didn’t have those funds under management. We raised our first fund really in 2008. And there’s this new group of VC funds by comparison to what used to exist in 2002-2003. It’s a very different environment, it’s a very different attitude. I think back then there was more of that almost like the 3i mantra and it was always towards the more of a private equity sort of attitude rather than more that sort of US venture attitude of how do I work with you, Mr. Entrepreneur, in terms of, and help you build your business and how can you go on and develop that.

54:20 Brian Rose: Okay, so you’re seeing a kind of a new breed come in, but you’re remembering the old kind of attitudes.

54:26 Alex MacPherson: Yeah, yeah, some of the, and the old attitude, old attitudes are, I think a lot of those players there, you moved up into, you know, to being private equity, or a number of the players actually then, you know, disappeared.

54:39 Brian Rose: So I mean, your most prized possession is your reputation.

54:42 Alex MacPherson: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s the relationship with the entrepreneurs.

54:46 And the greatest thing we can say to an entrepreneur coming in, and remember, when they come and see us initially, it’s like, yes, they’re coming looking for funding. But if they’re a great team, they’re going to have lots of options. So we start to sell to them as to why And they should choose Octopus rather than some of our peers and our competitors. And the greatest selling point that we can have is other CEOs and entrepreneurs in our portfolio of, and I can say to them, go and chat to them, go and have a conversation with them and see how we are to deal with and make a decision on that.

55:33 And if you’re no different to many other industries, if your customers, and the entrepreneurs are our customers, are great advocates of yours, then I believe you’re getting something right.

55:43 Brian Rose: Right. Make your customers celebrities, they say. A quote from you, at the end of the day, if people aren’t enjoying what they’re doing, you’ve got to question what they’re doing. You have a strange role.

55:54 You are part mentor, part parent, part coach, part friend to these people. I mean, you really have a psychological relationship with a human. Take all the capital out, the products out, the market out. It’s a really fascinating role you have, a very human role. And it’s fascinating to hear you say that because we have a media bias in this world and especially in a bull market.

56:17 You know, I love TechCrunch, we have Mike Butcher here, but like people go to the headlines, they see the big wins, they see the survivorship bias, but you know, they don’t realize, you know, the work that’s put in and the time you have to put in with these people. And at the end of the day, you must have seen people that are doing things that are not doing it because they’re making them happy. They’re doing it to make money. And you must be able to see those people coming and going.

56:42 Alex MacPherson: I think, you know, the money in the success should be, you know, it’s not to say that people don’t want to make money, but it’s almost the byproduct of creating something really really special. Yes, money is a motivator to some people, but there’s a certain point in that journey of frankly how much does somebody actually almost need something. I think of say an Alex Chesterman in terms of what he’s created with Zoopla, how many naughts does he need? What’s he doing it for now? If he’s not enjoying what he’s doing, why is he doing it? So if you start out with looking to find what it is that you want to do, it’s how I got into you know VC. I thought that looks really good fun actually working with you know entrepreneurs working out you know what’s how it can develop that’s why I started you know with my colleagues catalyst because you couldn’t get a job at a VC absolutely why not but I didn’t have this I mean I was you know I was a city city trader originally I was sort of you know I did started in the trade option market and then that morphed into equity derivatives but I just knew I didn’t want my boss’s job so I didn’t know what I wanted to when I left.

58:22 And it took me a while to find small business. And then I thought, oh, VC looks, that looks pretty cool. I wondered if I could get into that. And I wasn’t able to get a job that I found the angel marketplace. And I thought, well, I am an angel, but I don’t have enough money to make a series of investments of a few hundred thousand pounds.

58:46 I had a series of a few 10,000 pounds wanted to spread my bets and thought there must be people like me so found some people like me you know we got together we made a couple of investments then we thought actually there’s we know lots of people like us who came from different backgrounds and different experiences so we thought well it’s found a business so we did we were then fortunate enough to back some you know great entrepreneurs we had a few wins one of which being you know love film. But if I’m honest about it, we weren’t very good at raising money alongside. So it’s a private investor group and so every time we found a new business, we had to effectively raise the money from that group for it.

59:39 Brian Rose: And at one point you said you had a realization, you were like wait a second, maybe I shouldn’t be in this business.

59:47 Alex MacPherson: But that self-doubt as the early years are pretty hard. As you’re building it, you do question. What we do in terms of making investments is a long-term gain. You do question it. It’s no different to anybody else who’s finding the business. You’ve got to go through the hard yards.

1:00:08 We were fortunate, back to business that then IPO’d and it moved forward, it gave us the confidence to go forward. We seemed to, the way, because our whole ethos was yes there’s the cash but also here’s a network of skills you can access resonated. But in 2005, 2006, we thought this can’t continue, we need to add funds alongside and we hadn’t been very good at raising those funds alongside. So they started to look for a partnership. And that’s when early 2007, we met up with Octopus, having come quite close with another group.

1:00:53 And the relationship, it comes back to relationship. It immediately clicked with them. And I remember having a conversation with a great man of mine who I was chatting through and sort of saying yes well you know we’re gonna go they’re gonna buy a majority stake in us and then there were some you know funds that were then managed and he said yeah you know sounds a bit like a win-win Alex and I was like yeah you know kind of kind of nervous about that because you know what’s wrong and well we’re now eight years later and I’m still trying to work out where the catch is so right that’s worked out pretty well and we’ve gone from raising 30 million sterling in that year in 2008 now having like 450 million pounds on the management you know at Octopus and yeah and I’ve been a VC without any money it’s not a lot of fun

1:01:49 Brian Rose: so knowing that you went through that own self-doubt along the way does that help you when you meet kind of newish entrepreneurs and do you look for it do Do you even say to yourself, everything’s good now, they got the funding, but in about 18 months or nine months, it’s gonna get hard, and I’m gonna have to be there for them.

1:02:11 Alex MacPherson: And you know, you go through those, but also, anybody who’s leading a business also has that, you know, it’s lonely. You want somebody to be able to chat to, you want a sounding board, and it’s somebody that, you know, just ensure that, you know, yeah, you’re doing the right thing. you know, you’re doing all the right things, it will come. I mean, the other thing that I’ve sort of found, it’s amazing how much luck you get the harder you work. If you put yourself out into those situations, if you’re out there, then things start to come together.

1:02:52 Brian Rose: Sounds like something an American would say.

1:02:56 Alex MacPherson: Is it? Maybe I got my American pitch hat on at the moment. I think it’s true though, I think actually if you put it yourself in the situation then opportunity arises and so being out there pushing forward, trying new things is really really important and yeah it has to be targeted, it has to be focused but don’t be afraid of it. And from our, you know, as investors or as, you know, mentors, it’s like trying to preempt some of those issues that are coming and trying to always be thinking, you know, six, 12 months ahead of, you know, where this needs to be, what are the opportunities. And then for us is if we’re seeing things and going in the right direction, how do we turbo charge that. So, say to the CEO, it’s kind of simple. If the decision gets us there quicker and makes the outcome bigger, why haven’t you already done it? Now, if it does neither of those things, put it aside. One of those things is where you’ve got the dilemmas.

1:04:15 If it doesn’t make it bigger or get you there quicker, why haven’t we done it?

1:04:20 Brian Rose: Right. Right, you gotta get me thinking about that. Can I ask you a few questions about your own success or your own personal success over the years? Was there anything that you changed about your game or changed about your personal routine or a way of thinking that you noticed had really a big change in what you were able to accomplish or output?

1:04:43 These success secrets are only available on the London Real Academy. Become a member and get access to live shows, exclusive courses, my webinars, bonus content, meetups, live events, an amazing community, and much, much more. Now back to the rest of the show. I always ask everyone at the end a few questions. I’m gonna ask you, if you could make a phone call to the 20-year-old Alex, give that young man a bit of advice, what would you tell him?

1:05:21 Um, but as, as, as the 20 year old Alex at that time, or as if it was, uh, today, uh, if you could call that 20 year old and tell him something, what would you tell him, um,

1:05:35 Alex MacPherson: do you always do what you enjoy doing? And I think it took me a while to, so there was a period of time in the city when I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing and that sort of whole piece. And I knew that and actually going to do something different was the best thing and then exploring that and learning and going forward.

1:06:01 So I would go make sure you’re always doing what you enjoy doing because then everything else comes out of that. You know, if you’re happy, well, it’s pretty cool, isn’t it? Yeah.

1:06:13 Brian Rose: fascinating place because there’s such a large amount of money flowing around there that it can it can stop people from sometimes making the right decision about their career and

1:06:25 Alex MacPherson: you know you could debate this forever but it’s sometimes people stay there because of the lifestyle they’ve built up they have to afford and you know sometimes I bump into colleagues and I look at them like they’re crazy they look at me like I’m crazy so we both we both have kind change paradigms. And I don’t regret my, you know, city career at all. I sort of go why didn’t I, you know, go and do my thing a year or two earlier? That’s all it is.

1:06:54 And if I’d had that mantra as if you’re not enjoying what you’re doing you need to change something of either about yourself or what it is you’re doing, then would I done something earlier? And would I have found what I really wanted to do. Fortunately, I have. So, you know, my son is not, he’s coming up to, you know, he’s not far off that 20 year old self. So, my advice to him to do is, you know, make sure you’re doing what you want to do. And yeah, and go for it.

1:07:27 Brian Rose: Second part of that question is, best advice you’ve ever received could be personal, could be about investing. What would it be?

1:07:37 Alex MacPherson: It goes back to somebody, when we were founding Catholics, it certainly applied to me, it doesn’t apply to everybody, which was don’t start your own business on your own. So do it with colleagues, because you don’t know everything, and so getting that complementary skill set in order to go and do things. That was good advice for me. And it kind of comes back to some of the conversations we’ve been talking about, recognizing some of your strengths, but also recognizing the weaknesses that you have and we all have weaknesses. I used to to hate, I mean, I still hate cold calling.

1:08:23 Absolutely hate it. Cold calling. Absolutely dreadful. And you know, and some people love it. Some people are really, really good at it.

1:08:28 They should get on. Quite happy going through the door, but get me through the door. That’s awful.

1:08:34 Brian Rose: It’s tricky, it’s tricky. Last part of that question is just finally, to the advice to all the people listening that are on different stages of their startup journey.

1:08:43 You know, it could be the 20 year old who is just intrigued, you know, maybe by the headlines at first. It could be the 25-year-old that’s out of school and has that idea, or even the 30-year-old that’s maybe been working in a company or an idea for two years and now realizes they need that funding. What’s the one thing you can tell them besides doing something that makes them happy? But besides that, because you come from a lot of knowledge, what would you tell them?

1:09:11 Alex MacPherson: I think with entrepreneurs, the word tenacity and that actually you’ve got to be passionate about what you’re doing and you’ve got to believe in it, but that can mean a number of steps in order to find what it is that really works. When I think of a number of the entrepreneurs is what works, they got something to a certain extent and then had, you know, I think the word pivot is used, you know, rather too frequently but they, you know, adjusted course or iterated on it. That’s finding your way through and actually every, no challenge is just there to test you and recognize it for that. It’s not the end of the world. So yeah, if you’ve got that dream, keep following it.

1:10:14 And be prepared for the dip, be prepared for the challenge and the pivot. There’s always going to be challenges. And also be prepared that it’s lonely and self-tapped. And you’re going to go, is this really the right route we should be going down? The margin of success and failure is often very, very fine.

1:10:40 They have that picture with someone digging a hole in a cave, and they’re almost out, and they can stop digging or keep digging. It’s amazing how close sometimes. The number of businesses, we were talking about Muscat here, and he started going, how close those businesses were not succeeding.

1:11:06 And the other aspect, as a VC, we’ve backed some really, really great business and great ideas which just with regards to timing, weren’t ready, weren’t quite fit for market. Will those in another incarnation come back and you’d be really successful? Yeah, they will be, but it just wasn’t their particular point in time.

1:11:27 Brian Rose: Alex, for a guy that throws around hundreds of millions of pounds for a living, you’re surprisingly very real and very personable. I saw a few talks you had given before and you were like, it’s about the people, which you feel like is a throwaway tagline for people in your business, but I really do feel like you make these personal connections with these people.

1:11:51 And I’m guessing that the people you invest in, they feel that with you when you come into the room And this is where I say you have an advantage over my fellow countrymen that maybe come in blasting and talk about the unicorn here and unicorn there, and how they’re gonna take people to the next level. It sounds like you probably go into a room and you wanna understand the why about the people and why are they doing what they’re doing?

1:12:22 Alex MacPherson: I think it is all about how can we be a part of their journey how can we be a part of their journey in order to You know make their aspirations come true and That’s It is relationship and if there’s It is a we’re in a long-term game. I mean, we we have relationships over, you know, five ten years. So

1:12:43 If it doesn’t if it doesn’t work first, you know first few months there’s a bit of a profit So, yeah, I think that relationship, seeing what people do, and then how can you best support them to go do?

1:12:55 Brian Rose: Right. You know, our tagline at Silicon Real has always been, it’s about the people. It would just kind of seem to fit right in the beginning because, you know, we’re telling these stories of technology and in the headline we see, you know, digital products and apps and valuations.

1:13:11 But it all really comes down to how the people are interacting and helping each other and the dreams and you know the why is such a fascinating thing. I think as humans we buy into products because of the why, look at the successful products the iPhones and the Apples and when even people watch my show they want to know why I’m doing it. Okay you’re the guy who used to be the banger, didn’t know what the heck he was going to do and now you’re living your life by having these interactions with these people and people tune in for that and so it’s nice to know that you recognize that as kind of the building blocks of these places.

1:13:44 So that’s a great lesson I think people can learn from today. And again, we’ve said it so many times on the show before, it’s those late nights and those hard times, it’s the do you love what you’re doing that’s going to get you through that. And I would argue, you would argue too, probably no amount of money gets you through that. It’s got to come from your heart. Oh yeah.

1:14:03 Alex MacPherson: And actually, there have been plenty of examples of businesses that have taken huge amounts of money, but if you can’t find the way through, no amount of money is going to solve that issue.

1:14:15 Brian Rose: Yeah, I’m sure you’ve seen that too. I’ve heard there’s a lot of unhappy billionaires out there.

1:14:21 Alex MacPherson: I’ve met a few.

1:14:22 Brian Rose: Fantastic. Please come back and see us again sometime. Let us know how secret escapes. All the best of luck with this and your future funds.

1:14:32 Alex MacPherson: I just look forward to London exploding even more, you know, as an ecosystem. And that’s why, you know, London’s a great place to be in the The next few years is just, I’m really excited about it and I think there’s a huge opportunity here.

1:14:47 Brian Rose: Good, well, we’re gonna put it on the map. So thanks so much and all the best.

1:14:57 Alex MacPherson: Pleasure. Cheers.

1:15:00 Brian Rose: This week on Silicon Real, we have Jeff Lin, co-founder and CEO of Cedars, one of the world’s leading equity crowdfunding platforms.

1:15:17 Jeff Lynn: Equity crowdfunding, the way we do it, allows that opportunity to be spread much more widely.

1:15:22 Brian Rose: You’re not trying to talk about tech startups, you’re like a platform for companies.

1:15:26 Jeff Lynn: Large businesses are structurally incapable of innovating effect. The company becomes Facebook, it becomes hugely successful, but because the deal hasn’t been done right and you haven’t sort of watched out for investors in the process, they don’t actually get anything out of the deal.

1:15:40 It happens all the time, it happened in Facebook. A lot of the businesses that come to us have a number of other places that they could get funding from and they’re not coming to us just for the money. They’re coming to us because it gives them a chance, you know, we talk about it, us from a chance to build community.

1:15:53 Brian Rose: Are we the best in FinTech in the world now in London?

1:15:55 Jeff Lynn: I think we are.

1:15:56 I think we absolutely are. We can pretty much say that. Absolutely.

1:16:15 Brian Rose: Silicon Real presents Jeff Lynn, Cedars.