Joule Sullivan - Modern Men Are Failures: Ex-Soldier Turned Tailor Explains The Secret to Power, Wealth & Freedom

Full transcript: Joule Sullivan on London Real

4:01 Brian Rose: This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Joule Sullivan, aka the Sartorial Shooter. The former soldier, security specialist, and problem solver turned high-end bespoke tailor. You spent 15 years working in intelligence and private security, operating in high-risk regions across the Middle East and Africa. Your work included crisis management, security, close protection, kidnappings, and extortion cases.

In recent years, you became popular on social media due to your close relationship and outspoken defense of Andrew Tate. You are the owner of Custom Made Reality, one of the most popular tailor shops in Dubai, where you offer customers not just style solutions, but a complete personal brand upgrade. You believe the West is in rapid decline, while the UAE stands as a beacon of opportunity, security, and prosperity, offering a thriving environment to grow, succeed, and achieve one’s potential. You ultimately believe that men should embrace their innate masculinity, face their fears, work harder than everybody else, and take on tough situations in order to truly understand themselves and unlock their full potential. Joule, welcome to London Real in Dubai.

Joule Sullivan: Honored to be here, brother. I’ve been watching your content for many years, mate. Thank you. You’ve profiled me quite well. Was that you or a team member?

Brian Rose: I’ve been watching you for a while.

Joule Sullivan: Appreciate you, brother.

5:17 Brian Rose: So, first things first, how do I look?

Joule Sullivan: Incredible. As I was saying earlier, it’s a bit confronting for me. I’m usually the one who people are looking at as, “Wow, he’s dressed kind of loud.” Whereas today, I’m going to have to give it to you, bro. You’ve absolutely destroyed the tailor in terms of making a statement. Well done.

Brian Rose: Well, thank you. It wasn’t the intention. Or maybe it was. About 10 years ago, I had a crazy guy on my show who probably got me dressing this way. He’s called the Trillion Dollar Man. He’s got a castle in Scotland, and he’s a very outspoken older man named Dan Peña. And I love the way he dresses.

Joule Sullivan: Amazing. He’s kind of like the grandfather we all had that gave it to us straight.

Brian Rose: And he’s the guy that most people ask me about on the streets when they pull me aside. Very politically incorrect. They’ll never make one like that again. And I started using his tailor, or as I like to joke, he now uses my tailor. He always used to say, you know, for a young man, you’ve got two ways to make a first impression: what you wear and then what comes out of your pie hole. So at least you can control one of those things.

Like I was telling you earlier, when I first started the show I would wear G-Star Raw trousers and skateboard t-shirts, and then I kind of morphed into this. Now it’s just become part of who I am, and I think it’s really important. There’s power in the suit, right?

Joule Sullivan: There is. There really is. I had a similar arc as well, in that I grew up very rough, always secondhand clothing. When I left the military and went into intelligence work, I was taught how to dress. Army guys, I was a soldier, they have the fast eyes, they’re a bit tight in their bodies, they need attention to relax. And they also need to be taught how to dress in a classic sense so that you can ultimately interact with upper society. That’s a lot of what especially civilian intelligence agencies do.

And so I noticed, as long as nothing came out of my pie hole and I was dressed in a nice navy blazer, some chinos or dark denim and a nice shirt, all of a sudden these restaurants that I felt uncomfortable in, I belonged. The people who would look down on me and patronize me because of my terribly low-class way of dressing would all of a sudden think, “Welcome in. Have a seat.” Again, as long as I didn’t say anything. So I had to learn how to make sure what came out of my pie hole was congruent with dressing well.

But the ROI, especially as a young man, in putting energy into learning the classic, traditional, conservative way of dressing, which we are not representing in any way right now… The tailoring is on point. The cut of that suit is gorgeous. Props to your tailor there. I’ve seen so many young men come in, and we’ve taken them through the process of: where are you going to dress? What sort of image do you want to put forward? They leave feeling like a million bucks.

Now, our man Andrew Tate often says there’s no downside to feeling like you’re the man. I believe there’s no downside to looking like you’re the man, unless you’re in London and someone’s coming after your watch and you don’t want to look like you have wealth. But generally speaking, the confidence that comes from it, and the projection of essentially social intelligence, of class, of refinement, without saying a word. How else are you going to do that?

You don’t take a car into the restaurant. Everyone, especially in Dubai, has a nice watch nowadays. That’s not the flex it used to be. But dressing well and having a good physique to back that up, good posture, that dress and bearing, really does bring massive ROI.

Brian Rose: Yeah, massively. And yet when I look at my fellow Americans, it’s like they’re almost going to the other end of the spectrum. It’s the race to zero. You go to places on both coasts and everyone is dressing like they’re 8 years old again, with the baseball caps. It’s so strange to see. I have to believe that’s a trend.

Joule Sullivan: Dressing in a classic sense has been around for a long time. And, as I’m sure you have, if you’re looking into why we dress in certain ways and why we use certain colors, that comes from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. So I think classic men’s attire will always last. And these tech boy trends, or the fully grown man who dresses like he’s 15, I believe that’s a trend. I hope that’s a trend that will fade very soon.

Brian Rose: Yeah, I hope you’re right. We do a lot of stuff in crypto, and I’d say a lot of executives are maybe scared to wear a suit to a crypto event because they want to be seen as the Web3 bro. And I went the other way. I dress like this and I go in, and a lot of young men come up to me asking me questions. They’re just attracted to this: “Oh, where’d you get the suit?” Just like maybe they’re attracted to other aspects of masculinity. And I think they get it.

Joule Sullivan: It’s archetypal. There’s power in the suit. Always has been. This is the modern-day armor for modern-day combat, that is, business and relationships. We don’t put on the chain mail and the big helmet anymore.

This is our armor for facing the outside world. So I think every man should put energy into it. If you want to rock a t-shirt and be that bro who relies on a nice watch to project the value, all right, cool. But you’re missing a trick. This sort of dress, even if someone doesn’t know or like fashion, impacts people on a deeper level than just being in a black t-shirt with a Richard Mille on your wrist.

Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s true. Guy Ritchie was on Joe Rogan’s show and he wore a suit, and Joe couldn’t really get it, because he probably has the bro dress, right? And then Guy kind of schooled him. He said, “In America, maybe more so, the suit was taken away from you as a male and fed back to you as a uniform.” But he said it was ultimately always a way for you to show your status, express yourself, show the world who you are that day. And at the end of it, you could see Joe really understood what he was talking about. I don’t know if he bought a suit.

Joule Sullivan: I see what you mean. And I remember in that conversation, he talked about the fact that he particularly likes the pocket square, because that is a way of showing you’re wearing this outfit because you can, not because you have to. You’re owning the look. I remember that. It was quite a formative conversation for me.

Brian Rose: It’s powerful. Guy has some really interesting intellectual property, besides just being a movie director, a master storyteller. And so when I started wearing these, it became a habit. And then it was my way to show the team and the world that I’m ready.

When I walk in the office that morning, when I walk out of the house, I’m ready, and everyone can see I’m ready. I’m not having a bad day. I’m not phoning it in. I’m wearing the suit and I’m ready to go. And so it’s just become a thing.

Joule Sullivan: And there it is. I was corporate for a long time, executive level, global at one point. And I was always the guy who was dressed as if he could go and interview perfectly that day. That’s going to lead to people appreciating you more, needing to give you better bonuses, give you promotions. If you really look ready to dominate, such that the competition might want to come and poach you, it’s not going to do bad things for your career, right?

11:43 Brian Rose: But you’re a tailor now through a very interesting set of circumstances. I was wondering if you could take us back to the teenage Joule in Australia and tell us why you went down this military route. I think you posted recently an old picture on your Instagram of a youngish Joule, maybe in his early 20s. I think you might have made a reference that he might have been a little bit of an angry man, maybe a misguided young man, like many are. Maybe you could take me back to that Joule.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, indeed. Single-parent upbringing for the most part. The typical welfare-raised kid, no real masculinity in the house, no real femininity in the house. The West is pretty lost on that front.

And so there was always the search for: what should I be? How should I use all this masculine energy? Now, alhamdulillah, with my son, he has his boxing, he has conversations with his dad. We are channeling his masculine energy in a healthy way.

As a teenager with no outlet, the military was the only solution for me, and I’m very grateful for it. If you think you’re some tough kid, go join the military and hang out with combat veterans. You’ll learn pretty quickly you’re not that tough. It doesn’t matter how many fisticuffs you’ve gotten into in the street when you’re talking about people who’ve been through X amount of combat operations. So that definitely grounded me.

I remember when I was signing up, I was told that I had scored an IQ high enough to be a fighter pilot. Why would I want to be an infantry soldier? To which I replied, “To kill the enemy, sir,” which is a line I took from a book anyway. But I wanted to learn the art of combat before going into anything else. It was a great experience, physically very demanding, great brotherhood. That struggle, bonding with other men, is real.

So I’m very grateful for that opportunity. People say, “Thank you for your service.” It’s an honor, and it is a gift to a man’s development to serve in the military. I don’t think it’s something people need to be thanked for personally. Although obviously a lot of people have given a lot more to that machine than I have, and I in turn am grateful for that.

But pretty quickly I was noticed as someone who had a talent for languages. So I spent, I think, a year and a half of my life in language school, which is pretty cool. Tetum, which is the language of Timor, then Farsi and Dari, which are Iran and Afghanistan respectively. I was taken into military intelligence, and from there into, we’ll just say, the intelligence world more broadly. I dropped the uniform. I’ve got to be careful what I talk about here, obviously. I spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and from there transitioned into the private security sector.

14:07 I’ll say, look, I was decent as a soldier. I think I was fairly good when it came to human intelligence. But the private security sector is where I really shine, because I do have a problem with authority, and also I like money. I like getting paid. So the private security sector was always the logical place that I’d end up in. Fifteen years lived in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi. I saw the first shots of the Yemen war with my own eyes.

A lot of good stories came out of it, which typically I don’t talk about, especially not with a bunch of cameras here, but I’m happy to discuss what’s reasonable and professional to discuss. And after a certain point of seeing what I view as the darker side of humanity… You spend a lot of time in conflict zones, you really do realize how evil humans are. I wanted to retire. Alhamdulillah, I had a very well-paid corporate job and a bunch of my own businesses: a weapons and tactics training company, an investigations company, a security consultancy. They all became seven-figure businesses in their own right, which is great.

And so I was like, okay, time to pull the trigger. What do I do? I don’t believe in retirement. I’m sort of done with security work. And I’ve always liked tailoring.

So am I a tailor? I don’t know. I’m a guy who likes hanging out and building wardrobes with his mates, building outfits. It’s a very satisfying process, as I’m sure you appreciate. And so that’s how I spend my days.

A lot of focus on faith, family, and trying to back off on this constant focus that I think all men like us have, which is get more money, get more money. I’m not beyond money, but I’m at the point now where there’s, as I’m sure you can appreciate, diminishing return on solely focusing on money. I want to use my days in a more quality way than just getting that bag. That’s the current focus.

Brian Rose: Which is an interesting evolution, because most men who have that realization… You’re early 40s, right?

Joule Sullivan: Correct.

Brian Rose: I’d say a lot of men have that realization in their 50s and 60s.

Joule Sullivan: True. I’ve taken a lot of chances and I think I’ve attained a very solid financial independence earlier than I ever thought was possible, which helps. It’s easy to not worry about money once you’ve got money. My whole life was: don’t have money, need to get money.

And a lot of people have said to me, “I was that poor kid. I still feel poor in my heart. What do I do about it?” Mantras won’t help you. Mindset, manifestation… Get money. That’s how you don’t feel poor.

But at a certain point, you need to realize that there are diminishing returns. When you go from, say, 10 to 15 million up to 20 or 30 or 40, your life doesn’t change. I don’t see it done very often, but I think at that point the sensible or noble thing to do is ask: all right, how can I give back? And what else matters in life other than just more money and more stuff and a bigger house? I’m actually looking to downsize my houses. I don’t need that much space anymore.

16:48 Brian Rose: Isn’t that interesting? I was trying to tell some crypto bro the other day who bought a Richard Mille watch, and he was like, “Do you want one?” And I said, “You know what? This is how we evolve: Timex watch, Rolex, Mille, no watch.”

Joule Sullivan: There it is, bro.

Brian Rose: And I see a lot of guys evolving like that, where the end is no watch, no car, no house or whatever. You’re downsizing, maybe because you have other priorities.

Joule Sullivan: I’ve noticed exactly that. A lot of the clients that I’ve worked with over the years are ultra, ultra high net worth individuals, royals, big players who have complex problems that need people like me. And they don’t usually wear watches. They have watches, but they don’t wear them. It’s quite an interesting one.

Brian Rose: It’s interesting too in Dubai, because, like you said, sometimes everyone has the watch.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed. Fake watches here, too. My goodness, there are a lot of fakes. It’s a real thing.

Brian Rose: When I’m outside, I’m the no-watch guy.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed.

17:44 Brian Rose: Tell me about the military. You can’t talk about everything, but you went through probably a lot of self-defining moments.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, definitely. Again, I went into the military thinking I was sort of tough and thinking I was fit, and especially when you’re in infantry… I was in a unit called 1 RAR, which is light infantry, specialized in jungle warfare. You get pushed, really, really pushed. It was great. I think every young man needs that, and I would wish the same for my son, in a way that was meaningful. A lot of modern-day warfare now, especially with Western militaries, is just the machine, the military-industrial complex.

But those skills and experiences you can have, specifically as a soldier in a capable military, are incredibly defining. The brotherhood that you can experience is very real. A lot of veterans really lack that when they get out. They really lack that feeling of having their boys next to them.

Because at a certain point, when you’re going through it, you don’t really care about the Hollywood narratives that you’ve got to save your country. With respect, rarely do you get kitted up and go on patrol for Queen and country. You’re doing it because you’re with your boys. You’re doing it for the men next to you, which I think is a beautiful thing to experience.

In terms of physical effects, pretty much everyone who does the soldiering thing properly will get injured, unfortunately. Typically the spine will be affected, or the knees. So that’s something that you will pay for for the rest of your life. But overall I’m very grateful for that experience.

19:08 Brian Rose: It’s amazing. It’s interesting because I’ve had quite a few Navy SEALs and former Green Berets on, and they’re probably the only people that talk about evil. Jocko talks about this, and Tim Kennedy, and they say there’s evil in the world. I don’t talk to many guests that say that, because I don’t think they’ve seen it, and I would say I haven’t seen it either.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, indeed. There’s collective evil in this world. When you spend a lot of time in places that are either failed states, on their way to being failed states, dictatorships that are holding on and losing ground by the day, or active war zones, you see a lot of things that, as per the Western paradigm, shouldn’t be happening. We live in a very advanced society. We have incredible medical care. Why is there a kid cut in half over there? It doesn’t make logical sense.

Whereas when you’ve spent time in those parts of the world, especially for me in the private security sector as well, I’d have big teams of locals. Whether they’re drivers or CPOs, close protection officers, or even the cook, they would have stories of their families being affected, right? So when you’re around the locals and you’re seeing how they’re impacted by years and years of this instability and conflict, it really does make you question the worldview that you have growing up in the West: that humans are inherently good, governments want to look after you, taxes are there for a good reason.

20:21 It’s a bit of a red pill, if you will, on the inherent good of humans, and especially politicians. Anyone who has spent enough time in conflict zones will have a pretty healthy distaste for the political class, because they’re making… life and death situations with just other people.

Brian Rose: Right. Sometimes for their own benefit.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly. And they’re not sending their own kids off to die.

Brian Rose: Right.

Joule Sullivan: That song “War Pigs” by Black Sabbath is very relevant to this day. The generals sitting around a fire, sending youths off to die. That’s exactly what’s happening to this day, even though it was written about the Vietnam War.

Brian Rose: Is it hard sometimes to come back to normal society when you’ve seen that darkness, and to try to look at the good in all people, because you can’t unsee that stuff?

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, indeed. It hasn’t been for me. Again, I’ve got a lot of brothers who gave a lot more to that system than me. I wasn’t special forces.

I was infantry, then intelligence. Some guys have really given a lot more of their souls and their minds to the system than me, so I won’t speak for them. But for me, especially spending years and years in these places as a civilian, as a private security, let’s say, security manager or security contractor, many different terms are given, I don’t think humans are good anymore. It’s not a struggle.

I’m not going to swear, but I think humans are, let’s say, self-centered. I think they want the most gain for the least effort. I think their empathy is very tribal. They care about their own people.

They don’t care about anyone else. I think we are inherently violent, dangerous animals, and I’m okay with that. I’m competent in that realm, and I think every man should be. But to think otherwise, I think, is quite naive.

I don’t believe that Western society is in any way civilized. Look at Hurricane Katrina, when there was no water and power for a few days. People were being cut up and murdered in the streets. I was on the ground in numerous countries during the Arab Spring, assisting with numerous evacuations. Egypt overnight went from being one of the most heavily policed states in the world… They said one in 70 people within Egypt were either police or intelligence services or informing into a huge network: taxi drivers, people at restaurants, hotels, a huge network of informants to maintain a really secure police state.

Overnight that was gone. It was just non-existent. All law enforcement, everything, gone. And of course there weren’t many firearms, so people were chasing each other down the street with swords. Neighbors were knocking on each other’s doors with swords, looking to settle the beef they’d had for years that had been held down because of this police state. So I don’t think humans are in any way good or benevolent animals. I think we’re evil and dangerous.

Take away the constraints of either a dictatorship, as you want to call it, in developing countries, or the comfort bubble that you see in the West, backed up by the violence of law enforcement being just around the corner. That’s when you see real humanity. I don’t think there’s any argument or counterpoint to be put forward other than the fact that humans are selfish and evil and violent. That’s our natural way of being.

Brian Rose: That’s why we have to fight, right? That’s why you feel that urge to get into the ring. It’s who we are as a species. And that can be really empowering if you’re a male, if you know that’s maybe who you are. And then you can start to think about how you can control that man and become a man that’s going to be beneficial to society. And it’s not going to be an easy job. It’s going to require training and discipline and restraint and exposure to risk.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, exactly. How do you know that you can keep a cool head and execute your training, maintain situational awareness when there are bits of hot metal flying around, if you haven’t been in it? I think as a man you need to be exposed to risk. There are many different ways to do that.

24:45 Brian Rose: Okay. Talk about the transition from military to private life, business. I guess a lot of guys can’t make that transition.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed. And I’ve really tried to help mentor a lot of veterans on their way out.

Brian Rose: It’s interesting, because people would look at a veteran, or even a special forces guy, and think, “Oh man, they’re so good at this.” And yet I’ve heard over and over again, it’s a very hard transition to make.

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent, because you’re still part of a system. It’s uncomfortable. You’ll be challenged a lot more than in civilian life. But your rent’s paid for you, your bills are covered, there’s a mess to go and eat in if you don’t feel like cooking. And you are told: right, be here at this time; now we’re deploying for this many months. Your life is dictated for you. To come out of that, especially, I find, if you’ve been in the game for more than, say, 8 to 10 years, it is very difficult to really transition into the civilian world.

For me it was, I’d say, pretty smooth, in that I was schooled on how to be a civilian by intelligence professionals. I was civilianized, if you will. So it really helped. But I remember at some point, I was, I’d say, 25 or 26, and I was in the process of getting rid of the uniform while still in the system, and I went to a friend of mine who I’d met at Krav Maga class. I did a lot of that for a good 5 years. It was a big part of my life back in the day.

And I said to him, “Bro, you work in corporate. Can I come into your office just to see what people are doing in those buildings?” As a mid-20s military guy, I had no idea what people were doing in all these buildings. I literally didn’t know. So he brought me in and sat me down. He said, “There’s an HR function, there’s a finance function, there’s marketing.” And I was like, it’s a bit like the military in a way. We have our ops guys, we have our logistics guys, we have soldier management, career management.

So a lot of what you are doing in the military is very similar to what’s in the civilian world, but you’re not really aware of that until someone briefs you on it. I’d say a lot of things like leadership structures, crisis communications, leadership training that you see in the business world, a lot of it comes directly from the military. But a lot of veterans aren’t really aware of that, or empowered to say, “Right, my skills and what I’ve been through are actually very relevant for this civilian world. I just need to change the way I talk. I typically need to calm down a bit, change the way I dress, and I can actually do very well in this.”

I am under no illusion: I wouldn’t have attained what I’ve achieved in the business world if it wasn’t for my background, both with the intelligence piece and the military.

Brian Rose: Okay. So you kind of unlocked it, looked at it differently, had a lot of help, too.

Joule Sullivan: Had a lot of help. Really fortunate with that. And the good thing about the private security sector is that pretty much everyone is a veteran, so they can help you. I remember when I went for my first interview in the private security sector, the first thing that my boss-to-be said was, “You’re going to have to grow your hair and relax your dress standards. You look way too green.” So even after all the intelligence work, I was still being told, “Mate, you still smell of that kind of guy. We need to bring you down to fit into this high-end corporate environment and to talk to the clients that we have coming in.”

27:51 Brian Rose: Interesting. What’s private security like? I think we all think it maybe is this, but maybe it’s really this. And I guess it really varies, too.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed. It’s a huge industry. You could be a close protection officer, and I’d say most of close protection is logistics and people skills. There’s a bit of risk awareness as well, a bit of planning, and a little bit of having to act if things go wrong. But most of it is facilitating the life of someone who’s very busy, and all the different cars and jets and hotel rooms and everything that’s involved in that. I think it’s a good job for a young man, but it gets very boring very quickly.

The way being a bodyguard is glamorized in the movies is not the case. It’s long hours. You are support for someone who’s going out and building businesses or doing interesting things, and you’re just support. So it’s a limited career path in that sense.

Stepping up, you look at those who are doing security management in hostile environments, or being essentially armed close protection officers in conflict zones. Good money if you’ve just come out of the military. A pretty simple life, plenty of time for the gym. Again, working with lads, it’s almost military-esque, but more cash.

So it’s not a bad way to do it, but again, it has a shelf life. You’ll get bored of it after a while, and then you’re looking into the management piece. That’s when you can specialize in certain areas. Perhaps you’ll be a physical security manager who sets up large factories, or who maintains the security of supply chains and compounds and oil rigs in Africa and so on. You could go into areas such as investigations, when you’re looking into fraud or extortion attempts and these sorts of things.

You can go into anti-illicit trade, so dealing with smugglers, essentially running intelligence operations to gather information on what smugglers are doing, finding people in the customs and law enforcement agencies of that country who actually care, and incentivizing them to go and shut down the smugglers. So it’s a massive field. There are so many different things to do.

So what is the dream in corporate security? You’re in-house. You’re working for a large company and you’re their trusted security guy. Towards the end of it, I had hundreds of staff around the world and a very healthy budget.

That’s when you can essentially be transitioning fully into the civilian world. So the dream is in-house work with a big company and a big budget and a big team, whether that’s your own security company or embedded with a multinational. That’s good living. But again, there are a lot of veterans out there, and there aren’t that many jobs when it comes to proper high-level corporate security or private security sector jobs.

Brian Rose: Can it be dangerous, or even more dangerous than the military situations? No backup?

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. I’m not the sort of guy to hide behind NDAs, but I am pretty NDA’d up. I was in numerous situations in the private security sector where there were artillery shells hitting the building I was in. I couldn’t hear for days. Many, many contacts. Many times movements have had to be interrupted and you have to go the other way because the recce car is being shot at. There’s a complete lack of the infrastructure that would support you if you were in the military.

You can’t call in a QRF, a quick reaction force. You don’t typically have an eye in the sky telling you what’s going on. You don’t have top cover, or arrangements with the local militaries to come in and support. It’s just you and your lads. And if things go wrong, which they do in numerous countries, things can flip quickly. I know of guys who’ve been stuck for months on end when the air corridors are shut in conflicts like Yemen.

So yeah, it’s a different game, but there’s a lot more money involved. So it’s dice that most veterans will roll, because especially when you’re fresh out of a pretty sharp-end or niche area of the military, there aren’t that many high-money jobs you can just clip straight into.

Brian Rose: Just fit right into. Yeah. Very few jobs you can just step into.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly. And also jobs where you still feel like you’re the man. Part of the issue with transitioning from the military is that you feel like you’re the man, but as soon as that system is taken away from you, you’re no longer given that validation that you’re the man. That’s what hits people a lot.

Brian Rose: Is the corporate world just demasculinizing?

Joule Sullivan: Sitting behind a desk dealing with corporate politics and HR policies, it’s a lot less satisfying and gratifying if you’re that high-testosterone man. Definitely.

Brian Rose: And so here you are, though, kind of at the top of the pyramid, where you’re not involved in this kind of direct action, but you still wanted to walk away because it was just stress you didn’t want to deal with anymore.

Joule Sullivan: Again, I don’t want to speak too negatively, but high-level security work, or I think any work in conflict zones, at a certain point you get tired of it. You are seeing the worst of humanity, and you’re just dealing with crappy situations and crappy people, if you will. If you’re investigating murders in a developing country, you’re not going to be talking to nice people. If you’re responding to extortion attempts in a Soviet country, you’re not dealing with positive interactions. If you’re investigating staff misconduct and someone’s got hurt or something’s gone missing, it’s not good vibes.

I mean, maybe I’m, what, 42, getting a bit old now. I like feeling positive in my day-to-day. When you are day in, day out not trusting pretty much anybody, looking into things going wrong in difficult places, I think everyone gets sick of it.

33:19 Brian Rose: Yeah. It’s hard to see you in that. I mean, I can see you there, but you seem to be a guy that really cherishes good vibes and tries to promote the good vibes. So it’s weird to hear about that guy over there. I’m sure you’re very good at it. I’m a bit surprised that you are now that default “I want to be around good vibes” person, even just a few years later.

Joule Sullivan: Well, I think at a certain point, when you’ve gone through that struggle pathway as a man, you become more and more protective. And I see this a lot amongst the ultra, ultra high net worth of the world: a lot more protective of their energies. It might feel a bit esoteric or a bit hippie, but I know numerous ultra, ultra high net worth individuals who make a point of not interacting with more than 10 people unless they really have to. They just don’t talk to anyone else. They don’t let people in their house unless it’s family. They don’t go out to restaurants.

They withdraw from everything out there because they just don’t like interacting with people who they haven’t vetted, who they can’t trust fully, and who don’t respect them and understand how to interact appropriately. I kind of get that. Look, I’m in no way some baller when it comes to financial status, but I am at the point where I don’t really want to be around negative people. Because as mentally tough as you are, we are tribal animals.

You step on the subway in London, everyone’s a bit depressed, it’s going to drag your energy down a bit, right? We have the mirror neurons. We feel what the crowd is feeling as a survival mechanism. In the same way, in a herd of gazelles, one of them hears something, and all of those gazelles instantly put their ears up. It’s a survival thing, where there is that emotional economy that exists.

I don’t want to be around people who are scamming or conducting acts of violence, all this sort of stuff. Maybe Dubai’s made me soft. But you want a jacket? I’ll give you a jacket. I’m a simple tailor.

Brian Rose: It’s beautiful. It’s interesting. I’m so blessed to do this job, where most of the time I’m talking to somebody who’s on a really high frequency, and that’s the only reason they’re there, or they’ve got some new ideas. Or I’m surrounded by my community, which is at a similar level, or my family or my friends. And so I’m rarely in a situation where I’m dealing with some low-frequency energy.

I remember I was getting my haircut a few months ago at the barber in London, and there was a guy next to me who was just talking rubbish with the barber. It wasn’t even bad. They were just talking about nonsense, two young men, and I’m just thinking, really? You guys don’t have anything better to do? And I caught myself, and I’m like, “Wow, I’m reacting to this because the rest of my life is so pure that I don’t involve anything around me as soon as there’s a whiff of negative vibes or low frequency, or even not high frequency.” And so I was like, “Whoa, you really are detached from this. Maybe that’s good.”

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. And that frequency dynamic between people, I think social neuroscientists will call it the emotional economy or energetic economy, the theory does speak to this: someone else’s frequency will impact you. Why would you want to be around that low-frequency stuff, like people who have certain vices, or who are addicted to certain hedonistic activities, or the sort of person who shafts their business partner for money? They put money over honor and these sorts of principles. You don’t want to be around that. And I think as money becomes less important, your tolerance for being around low-frequency people diminishes so drastically.

Brian Rose: Yeah. And if people force you or cause you to behave in a low-frequency way, you notice that as well. If I have to get angry, or if I have to say something, it’s like, wait, what? It’s hurting me more than it’s hurting them.

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. And it lingers throughout the day as well. I don’t need that. That’s what I love about tailoring, man.

It’s so simple. My worst day as a tailor is: oh, we’re out of that fabric, and the manufacturer said we have to wait a few months to order it. So I have to explain to my clients, sorry, brothers, we can’t do that jacket that you wanted.

That’s as bad as it gets. Having been shelled and dealt with kidnaps and colleagues being killed and all sorts of mess, I would take that reality, bro. It’s a real blessing. I wake up grateful every day.

37:19 Brian Rose: What’s it like when you’re around high-profile people? I think you mentioned when you were around Andrew and Tristan Tate, security for them is no joke, because they’re dealing with a highly emotional public that’s unpredictable. I don’t think you did security with them. I think you were just friends, but you said you’ve seen them in situations. I think you mentioned Andrew is quite well aware of his own security.

Joule Sullivan: Both of them are super switched on.

Brian Rose: Really?

Joule Sullivan: Super, super situationally aware. Absolutely. They carry themselves like security professionals. They have such professional paranoia, which is great when you then become very famous, because you’re a hard target. But to your point, their fan base is so emotional, they just run at them. And this was years ago, before they even hit that most-Googled-man status that Andrew hit, because their fans’ lives are changed so drastically. They improved.

Hundreds and hundreds of young men have run up to Andrew saying, “Oh, thank you so much for reason X. I’m making more money. I’m back in the gym. I’ve healed the issues I had with my dad, thanks to listening to you.” He has such a positive impact. And I think that’s the difference between fans or viewers and actual real supporters. The Tates have real supporters, guys who are like, “You’ve changed my life. You are the father figure or older brother that I never had. I need to run up and I need to tell you thank you.” The issue is, both Andrew and Tristan don’t really like being run up on.

Brian Rose: Funny that.

Joule Sullivan: And rightly so. They’ve come from some pretty violent suburbs, both in Luton and over in the US, in the areas of Chicago where they grew up. So it is very interesting to see how their arc has gone.

38:53 But we want to talk about very high-frequency people. They’re the most high-frequency people I’ve ever met. I don’t fanboy over anyone. Again, I’ve had clients who are billionaires, oligarchs, royals.

Obviously, I’ll never talk about that. I think I’ll take my interactions with such people to the grave. But I’ve never seen somebody as high-frequency and high-output, physically and mentally, as Andrew Tate, and Tristan as well. Very unique intelligence, very different guys.

Six years ago, after hosting them at one of my weapons and tactics facilities, when we were relaxing and talking, I said to them, “You guys have a real role to play in masculinity. Some of these insights you’re sharing need to go out into the world. I’ll do everything I can to assist.” Look, I’m not a tough guy, but I have a lot of tough guys on my phone, let’s put it that way. I have a lot of useful people around the world who I’ve built real relationships with. “If I can support you getting your message out, of traditional values and of motivating men to be capable, dangerous but caring, old-school traditional men, I’ll do whatever I can.”

I didn’t know they’d then become that famous. But it was very clear to me that their high frequency, their message, the insights they were able to channel, would lead to a very clear movement of reviving masculinity, if you will, in men today. And it played out over the following years.

Brian Rose: Were they doing that actively in, like, 2018, 2019?

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, around then. I remember saying to both of them, “Guys, your messaging here will save a lot of lives, will improve a lot of lives, men and women.” Feminists nowadays are like, “Where have all the good men gone?” That is a cry for men who have traditional values, who are providers and protectors, even though feminists might not want to admit it. Andrew and Tristan Tate talk to that. They talk to men being capable, being accountable, putting in that huge amount of work to become the man and then take care of your people. That’s their core message.

And so I said, “Your message needs to get out to the world, because it’ll do so much good.” And they said, “Yep, when it’s time, we’ll do that.” At that point, they were building the brand: the cars, the YouTube videos. It was a joke. They’d do these YouTube videos and spend like $50,000 an episode, and they’d get like 10,000 views. So it was the most expensive per-view YouTube channel on the planet, but obviously it worked. It grew over time and became the cultural icon that Andrew and Tristan Tate are.

They were saying, “Yeah, we’re going to build the brand. We’re going to use the flashiness, but then we’re going to have this message of,” essentially, you could call it, male empowerment. I know people might view that as a bad thing. But again, if we’re in a world where most women, especially in the West, are saying, “Where have the good men gone?”, male empowerment is necessary to make men feel accountable and duty-bound to become capable providers and protectors. That’s the core message of the brothers. So it’s been very interesting to observe over the years.

42:37 Brian Rose: Yeah. It sounds like they were focused, maybe in ’15 and ’16 or earlier, on building their businesses and their wealth, and then they made a conscious decision: okay, we’re going to go into the public sphere.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly.

Brian Rose: And that’s a scary decision to make. They probably didn’t know what was coming.

Joule Sullivan: That’s exactly it. Of course, the sphere was also evolving at the same time.

Brian Rose: There weren’t people, maybe back in ’15 or ’16, they could point to and say, “I’m going to become them,” because it hadn’t really evolved.

Joule Sullivan: Well, I remember at one point Tate gave a sort of call-out to Logan Paul, saying, “Hey, I’ll fight you. You’re looking for people to fight.” And of course, it didn’t get any traction, because Tate wasn’t that big. Tate now has much more love and real emotional supporters who are grateful to him than Logan Paul would ever have. Logan Paul was just an entertainment figure, as far as my read on these things goes.

Same with Dan Bilzerian. I met the brother recently, spent time with him. I remember at one point we were talking about reaching out to Dan Bilzerian and the Tates spending time with Dan Bilzerian, but it just didn’t happen, because the Tates weren’t big enough. The Tates have arguably become much bigger now. So it’s really interesting to see that arc.

43:40 Again, I don’t fanboy any man, but I’ve been behind the scenes watching these brothers, Andrew and Tristan, consciously create this global fame movement. It’s masterful. It’s marketing, and capturing, controlling and monetizing that attention economy. Say what you want about Andrew and Tristan Tate, because I know a lot of people have negative opinions.

I’d recommend they spend some time around the brothers before they think they can judge them. Amazing people. I’m very grateful to have spent so much time with them. But these brothers are absolutely masterful marketing chess players, global attention economy-capturing chess players. And it’s been incredible to observe.

Brian Rose: Yeah, it must have been wild for you to watch that.

Joule Sullivan: Amazing. Really amazing. I’d like to share one moment where I really saw Andrew walking the walk. We were at an event in Romania.

There were Vice worms crawling around, trying to put forward a very biased take. Vice was filming a little mini-doc on Andrew at an event where guys were getting in the cage on very short notice. A really positive event. The Vice guys even said during it, “Wow, I can see why you guys do this. This is incredible.”

But then they had to snap back to their leftist soy feminist thinking. I feel sorry for the lads. They don’t live good lives. We tried to lead them on the right path.

At that point there was a big event running and a lot of different businesses running, all of that on Andrew’s shoulders, and Vice buzzing around trying to soundbite everybody. That’s when he really started getting the headlines. In one day there were maybe 200 articles, all using the same words: he’s a misogynist, he’s a bad influence, all these things. Obviously a press release or some sort of instruction had gone out to all of the different media houses, and on the same day they all fired off the same talking points about Andrew Tate.

He lost his website servers. He lost his banks. He lost his payment providers. He lost social media.

Everything just imploded. He wasn’t fazed, as God is my witness. Can you imagine any other influencer losing everything? He couldn’t even use Uber, man.

He’d lost everything. He wasn’t fazed. Zero. He was like, “Right, what’s next?”

That to me was a really defining moment. I’ve always thought this guy’s different and I’ve always given him respect accordingly. I have seen proof of his world imploding around him, and now he’s even wealthier and even more famous. And he gave zero negative reactions.

I know the guy well. I don’t think he cared. I think he’s just: all right, that’s the chess move that’s on the board. What’s my counter-move? And what’s my three, four moves ahead?

He walks the walk that much. If we talk about mental resilience, if we talk about facing challenge with gratitude: “Good, let me have this struggle. It’s building me as a man.” I saw his entire business infrastructure, social infrastructure, everything implode, and his name get run through the mud in a clear, targeted attack. He didn’t care. Just, all right, another day, another day of work.

Brian Rose: How does he do that? Had he played that chess game before in his mind?

Joule Sullivan: I don’t think he had, mate. I don’t think he was aware of the fact that the system would be that coordinated. His whole theory of the Matrix… I’ve always said there are many different matrixes. That’s my view.

But his view is that there’s one Matrix. Man, that day the one Matrix came after him, and it has continued to this day. So he was always aware of the opposition, so to speak. I don’t think he thought it would be that large and, frankly, ridiculous. The claims that are being made just don’t make sense.

Again, I’m not going to speak out of turn or say anything I shouldn’t in terms of respecting people’s private lives, but the challenge with Andrew and Tristan Tate was to get women to leave. They weren’t keeping anyone around. They weren’t trying to trap anybody. The “Hey, let’s get rich together” in different ways, which obviously a lot of people can say, like OnlyFans and these sorts of things, is not a clean way to make money, or it can be judged as not being ethical. It’s not illegal. Managing OnlyFans is not illegal, as I understand it. It’s a massive industry and many people are doing that.

But the way that they’ve been persecuted, as if they’re somehow these big evil guys trying to trap women and manipulate women… Brother, I was with them. The only challenge the Tates have is to get women to go. They flock to the guys and they attach to them.

The idea that they’re somehow trying to force anyone to do anything is simply not true. I’ve been around them for literally years. So I don’t think they saw how ridiculous the claims coming at them would be, and I don’t think they were realistically able to strategize in advance how to deal with that. They just have complete self-confidence.

And genuinely, a lot of people ask me, “How’s Andrew? How’s Tristan?” I think they enjoy this combat. I’ve discussed this with numerous other people close to them. I think they actually enjoy what’s going on, because it’s a good old challenge.

Imagine people saying that about you or your friends, or your family hearing these things. It’s disgusting. It’s heavy. I don’t know how I’d cope with it. I don’t think I’d do that well if I was labeled based on lies from clearly not credible individuals, who were making money as well with the brothers back in the day.

But seeing how they are just so resilient in the face of global reputation-tarnishing and very, very powerful attempts to shut them down in every way, and they’ve turned that into being more famous and more wealthy and more influential… Man, if that’s not a receipt for the way this person says you should be as a man, he’s actually living it, then I don’t know what is. It was incredible to observe this whole thing. Really a real honor.

Brian Rose: This was around ’21, ’22?

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, exactly. Something like that.

Brian Rose: Okay. That was like the first big Matrix attack. And then I guess you saw them later being put in jail. That was probably a year later, maybe. And that would have been something that was even more sobering and serious to watch, especially as a friend.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, it was wild. It was really wild to watch. Very, very uncomfortable. And that’s why I went loud on social media.

I had no interest in a big following. I think I’d posted a maximum of a couple dozen times on Instagram before then. I was hiding behind “Sartorial.” I wasn’t using my real name. I had a burner account on Twitter that I basically just used to retweet anti-feminist things, which obviously I had to back off from when I became public and put my name behind my accounts.

But seeing them go through that, I had to speak up. What kind of a brother would sit there and be quiet if he’d been around people for years and was seeing all this nonsense being said about them, and all these so-called experts on the Tate brothers who’d never even met them, or met them once? I’m like, “Hang on, I’m here now. Look, I’m not objective. I love them dearly as brothers. I care for them dearly. But I am a credible source.” I have a master’s degree from a credible university in the UK. I was a leader in the field of security investigations globally, speaking at many conferences, these sorts of things. And I’m able to put aside my emotions, “Hey, they’re my boys,” and offer objective facts as much as any human can.

I went live on Twitter Spaces. I got my house doxed, all sorts of stuff. I had threats against my family, all sorts of ridiculous things. Thankfully, I’m pretty well positioned to deal with that sort of stuff.

And I spoke to a lot of media, which, as a security professional, is the last thing you want to do. You don’t want to be speaking to the media. I spoke to, I’d say, dozens of different media houses and documentary makers. Guess what? Most of them didn’t even feature me.

I remember at one point I spoke for 3 hours with Sky News or Channel 4 or one of these. They used a maximum of 30 seconds of me, because I didn’t fit their narrative. To each one of their questions, I had a clear, credible, objective, “Yeah, okay, that makes sense” response. They just didn’t want that. The shameless agenda of the mainstream media didn’t want me to talk for the Tates. Thankfully, there’s social media. And again, I’ve gained a bit of traction there, speaking about what I witnessed firsthand with the Tates over a long time.

But on a personal note, I have no interest in being some big influencer type. The only reason I went loud and put my real name on my social media accounts was to speak up for the brothers and to say, “Hang on, I’m a credible guy. I’ve actually been around them. Here’s what actually happened.”

Brian Rose: And so you made it through. They went to jail. They came back out. That must have been tough.

Joule Sullivan: Tough. Yeah, definitely. Look, I don’t think of myself as an overly emotional guy, but the day they got out was a real moment. That was really something amazing to see. I continued to speak for them as much as I could.

Now that they have a platform, they can speak for themselves. But looking back, I’m very glad that I did. Sure, there were some consequences. But at the end of the day, what kind of a man are you if you’re not going to take some silly consequences, such as people coming up to your house or threatening to do bad things to your family, in order to speak up for your brothers? You know what I mean?

That’s why I bought the dog, by the way. I had so many people come to my house. So many, good and bad. As soon as I got that dog, the Doberman, something about those ears that stick up… Nobody. It’s magic.

Brian Rose: Wow.

Joule Sullivan: Twenty years of security experience. Advice for residential security: get a Doberman. Train him well. You’re good.

53:03 Brian Rose: Did you ever think about pulling back when your house gets doxed, and your family…

Joule Sullivan: And also as a professional with a very mainstream job. Again, I was speaking at lots of conferences. I was sought after in private security circles as the sort of guy you want on your team. Companies were often attempting to headhunt me, all these sorts of things. I can’t do that now, man.

There’s no way I could work as a security professional now, having gone and vouched for my brothers the way I did. But I also don’t care. I’ll put brotherhood and loyalty to brothers that I care deeply about over any sort of career path. I can find a way to eat. I’m fine.

53:38 Brian Rose: What do you think the future role of the Tates is?

Joule Sullivan: I think the Tates are a tricky one to call. A lot of people have referred to me as Tate’s manager. You try managing those brothers. They are so uniquely intelligent and such masterful chess players.

They’re going to manage themselves the way they want to manage themselves for the rest of their lives. I don’t think anyone could ever manage them, so to speak. I’d like to think that the intent they have, which is to use their platform for good, is going to last. There’s a lot of pressure on them, but again, I think in a way they kind of enjoy it.

I think they’ll continue to motivate, at this point, tens if not hundreds of millions of young men to be better humans, to work harder, to be more motivated, to be more disciplined, to avoid drugs, to avoid wasting a life, as so many people do, as the system sort of wants you to do. To reject the porn addiction, which impacts so many, especially younger men. To reject hanging around with low-frequency humans. All the messages that the Tates are putting out.

In the same way the Lamborghinis were used to bring attention, so were the rambunctious statements. If you look past that, at the core message of the Tate brothers, it’s incredibly meaningful. So I believe the future for them is to continue to impact hundreds of millions of predominantly young men to be more productive, more capable, more disciplined humans, to look after their people better. I think it’s a very honorable thing.

Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s tricky in media, because without the sizzle, no one will eat the steak. Without cutting through… It’s an attention economy. If you don’t get people’s attention, you could have the greatest message in the world and it won’t matter. So that’s the dichotomy that you see with a lot of these people. And with Andrew, if you take everything too literally, you can criticize it. But if he never had those shock moments and those shock statements…

I still remember when the Andrew Tate videos started going around, and I remember thinking, what’s the dude with the sunglasses on saying these things? I remember the soundbites, and I remember it coming over like a wave when I was in London. It was everywhere. But then I started watching him, and it took about 10 or 12 watches until I could see there was something else there. At first it just seemed like another yapping guy, and I thought he was from Miami or something. And then I realized, okay, there’s something there, and there’s a character there. But then that’s where the message gets in.

Joule Sullivan: There’s the Trojan horse, and it’s all by design. It’s 100% orchestrated, which is quite a miraculous thing. Amazing. And also the Tate when the camera isn’t on… Again, as God is my witness, I have not seen him be rude to one person, ever.

He’s polite to the person who’s driving the cars in the same way he’s polite to someone who’s worth 100 million who wants some sort of deal with him. He is very grounded, very respectful, very socially aware, and kind-hearted and giving to people. So when the camera comes on, he can do what he needs to do, and he’s very good at it. But people who want to think that that’s his true nature: spend some time with him. Actually talk to people who have spent time with him.

56:38 Brian Rose: You have very intentional things you do as a parent with your daughter, too. I think you said early on you made it important for her to understand that her personal space was her personal space.

Joule Sullivan: So that’s a good one. Thank you for raising that. I see a lot of people, when they have kids, relatives want to hug them, or strangers: “Go and hug your uncle.” None of that in my house. If my daughter doesn’t want to hug you, she’s saying no.

And you’d better believe it, or I’ll body-block you. I’ve done that in public when they were little, too. I would shoulder people who were running at my kids: “No, you don’t touch my kids.” My daughter, especially, is very feminine, but also hyper-assertive. Her space is her space.

As a security professional who’s investigated all sorts of terrible things, crimes involving violence against women, I think it’s every father’s duty to empower their daughters to say, “This is your line. No one crosses it.” Not, “Oh, go and hug whoever.” No. If you don’t want to, you say no. Because everything in terms of self-protection for women starts with that sense of assertiveness.

Yes, there’s risk avoidance. Don’t be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Obviously, don’t go and get drunk in places with a bunch of strangers. Don’t walk down that alley.

Learn to fight, if you want, all these different things. Primary to that is: be hyper-assertive and know what your limits are. My daughter knows that, alhamdulillah, very deeply. I think every man should instill the same in his daughter.

Brian Rose: Powerful.

Joule Sullivan: Thank you. And both of them know they can contact me whenever they want. And they know from experience that Dad has people everywhere.

Brian Rose: Okay.

Joule Sullivan: Everywhere. They’ve been in situations before. Even in Mexico, they were on holiday: “Oh, Dad, we’re going to be in Mexico. Is it safe?” I said, “Dad’s going to send someone to look at the hotel, and I’ll check out the routes, and if there are any issues, call me and I’ll call the local regional chief of police.” They know Dad’s that guy anywhere they are in the world. Which is obviously something that you don’t want to have to utilize with your kids, but I have it there if needed, and they know that it exists, so they feel safe. They feel loved, which breeds confidence.

And they have full focus from their dad. Not Dad on the phone. You give them that full focus. I don’t see them all the time.

Again, it’s a dad’s role not to be a mom. We have to role model. We have to go and conquer. But the moment I’m with them, they get that full focus, which I think enables them, during their formative years, to build the belief system that they are worthy of love and attention.

Especially for women. How many women have those absent father issues, the daddy issues? Dad may have loved them, but because Dad was out working between the ages of two and seven, the formative years, they felt, “Oh, Dad’s never around, therefore I don’t deserve love from the masculine.” They go and find useless husbands who don’t treat them well, and they have that inherent belief that they aren’t worthy of full focus from the masculine. My daughter knows the masculine is there and loves her, and she is really worthy of that full caring, empathy, focus, everything. And inshallah, she’ll go and find that in the husband. She knows she deserves a good man as a result of my conduct.

1:00:19 Brian Rose: Do you think that daughters will ultimately find the man… Do you think you’re the bar for your daughter’s future relationships?

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. Having spent a lot of time with psychologists, predominantly within the intelligence world: we’re not attracted to what’s healthy, right? We’re attracted to what’s familiar. If we want to go through the theoretical pathway, especially with Jungian psychoanalytic theory as I understand it, we have emotional complexes, as they’re referred to in CBT. These emotional complexes want to balance out. What that results in is that we will unconsciously create dynamics of past conflict in the present moment, so as to work through them.

In the same way, if you’ve got, for example, a mom who was very overbearing and guilt-tripped you a lot, and was very unhappy and always grumpy, and you were always trying to make her happy, you’ll go and find a wife with that same dynamic. That’s what you feel drawn to on an unconscious level. I’ve just unfortunately explained my first marriage.

Brian Rose: Wow.

Joule Sullivan: But again, we’re here to learn. We’re here to grow, right? And these things have been mapped out by psychologists very clearly. You can reverse-engineer that.

My daughter is not going to be drawn to unhealthy traits because they’re familiar. My daughter will be drawn towards a healthy, caring, traditional-value man. As you know, with relationships, especially as you’ve seen with abusive relationships and so on, you will only go through that which you tolerate. And if you have a belief system of, “Hang on, I deserve better than this,” you won’t allow yourself to be in a toxic relationship. I’ve really consciously tried to instill that in my daughter, and also to role model to my son the sort of man he should be and the dynamics he should create in his relationships.

Brian Rose: They’re powerful lessons. I’ve had Sadia on here, talking about how you’re competing with a woman’s upbringing. She said if she grew up in chaos, then that’s where she’s going to feel more comfortable. And you trying to fix all of her problems and bringing this great reality can’t compete with the chaos of her childhood, and she’s going to recreate it, or find it somewhere, or with you.

Joule Sullivan: Even if you’re doing the right thing, they’ll still recreate it. Everyone has a favorite emotion. Even if it’s a negative headspace, even if it’s “the masculine is bad to me, everything’s terrible,” even if you’re a great guy, they’ll still live that reality with the masculine, because that’s what they felt during their formative years that they deserve.

Brian Rose: That hit me pretty hard, because I’ve been through a couple of those. And you’re like, “Okay, well, yeah, you couldn’t fix it.” And trying to fix it was the worst thing.

1:02:42 I want to get back to masculinity, but just to finish with the parenting thing real quick. You mentioned you’re not there all the time, but when you’re there, you’re present. I remember I was talking to Jocko, the Navy SEAL, and he said, “Look, men have always gone to conquer. They’ve always gone to war. Men being away from their children is not a new thing.” And yet a lot of men maybe feel racked with guilt that they’re not logging those hours. What do you say to that?

Joule Sullivan: I’ve actually said this to a lot of the guys who I’ve mentored and interacted with over the years, and I learned this a lot from Tate. Actually, let’s give a story to answer that question. It’s a bit of a personal one. Post-divorce, six or seven years ago, my kids were going to be taken away to Sweden, a different country. I stayed in the UAE.

That was super difficult for me. For the first year, I didn’t go into my kids’ room, because I just felt this physical response in my heart. I’m not an overly emotional guy, but I couldn’t walk into their bedroom if they weren’t there. It was quite physically disgusting to experience. So I just didn’t go in that room.

I was really upset about this, and I spoke to Tate and said, “Man, I just feel like I’m not doing my duty as a dad, because I’m not around my kids as much as I used to be.” He said, “No, stop. You can still be a very impactful father from a distance. My dad raised Tristan and me to be the men we are. We hardly ever saw him.” So Tate’s insight there helped me hugely. Oh, hang on. I can still be a very caring dad and not have to do those mom duties and be around all the time.

Again, different roles. Up until 50 or 60 years ago, that was pretty standard. Men would go off to war. Men would go off to the fields.

We’re meant to be out with other men, conquering, to your point. And so I sat and reflected. I thought, all right, how can I be a very impactful, very caring, very present father without being around all the time? When they call me, I’ll answer, as I just did. When I’m around them, they get that full presence.

That quality time means so much more than just being around all the time. If I was living the normal corporate existence and they were in the house with a wife and I saw them every day, that’s not as valuable as one full-focus hour in a week. Because then you’re getting, “Oh, Dad gives me his focus. Dad loves me.” As opposed to, “Yeah, cool. Have you had your lunch yet? All right, cool, let’s drop you at school,” as many people do.

1:05:05 The quality-over-quantity thing is very real with parenting, as I’m sure you appreciate. And the other one is that it’s our duty as men to role model to our sons the sort of men they should be, and the sort of relationship dynamics that exist. Ideally you have a healthy relationship dynamic, so your son can see what’s possible, that good women do exist. “Where have all the good women gone?” a lot of men are saying nowadays, too. Show that that exists. And also show your daughter the sort of masculine presence she should feel is normal. A lot of that’s role modeling.

So you do not need to be around them all the time. I fiercely believe that you don’t need to think that you need to be a second mom. If anything, that will ruin your testosterone levels, ruin your intimacy with your wife, and not role model to your kids the sort of man that your son should aspire to be, and the qualities your daughter should be looking for in a husband. I really, really passionately believe in that. And alhamdulillah, my kids are amazing: very grounded, very capable, very assertive, very well-spoken, very respectful.

My son’s getting dangerous now, too, with the hands. He’s boxing. We’ve been going since he was three, and he’s coming along. My daughter loves her gymnastics, and is very passionate about it.

So, alhamdulillah, my approach works. It hurt me to not be able to be around them all the time. I did everything I could to try and make sure I was still around them, but it didn’t work. I paid a lot of money to try and make sure they were still here.

But if anything, it was a blessing, because I realized that I can now go off and conquer more, as opposed to feeling, “Oh, I should be a second mom.” No, I’ve got to do the provide and protect, not the nurture and be around all the time. That’s not my role. And I don’t have the right hormonal makeup to do it. I don’t have the estrogen and the oxytocin and the increased empathy and, essentially, the calmness and tolerance that women have.

I remember when I was doing the single-parent thing, man, every weekend when I was going to have the kids, I had to slow myself down. I had to try and reduce my testosterone levels. Otherwise, with these two little crazy kids breaking everything and screaming, it would just do my head in. If you’re a very masculine man… We can look at chimp biology, as a lot of scientists do when they want insights into the human condition. The alpha of the tribe does not talk to the kids unless it’s for two reasons.

One, they’re old enough to be useful to the tribe: “All right, son, you need to come and learn how to hunt.” Or two, when they’re jockeying for popularity to stay on top of the tribe, in the same way politicians will hold babies for photos. So the chimps are actually quite insightful, in that the main alpha male is not interacting with the kids. That’s not his job.

He needs to be on edge. He needs to be high-testosterone. He needs to be combative. It’s the opposite of being a caring, loving, empathetic parent, right?

Brian Rose: The opposite of being a nurturing mom. Yeah. And so be there for them when they call, but also use that time to become the man that’s the role model for them.

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. Got to conquer, man. Got to conquer. How are you going to teach your son to be an amazing man if you’re always a second mom? It’s not a natural thing. The testosterone that’s running through our blood wants us to fight, fornicate, conquer, build. Not sit around and watch Netflix and hold hands and spoon-feed babies.

Brian Rose: Yeah. I mean, if they’re with you 24/7, you’re clearly not out there accomplishing anything anyway.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly.

1:08:10 Brian Rose: This is the kind of question we need to talk about, especially with masculinity. So, getting back to where we are with masculinity. Obviously, the arrival of Andrew pushed things to the limit. I remember my initial comments about Andrew, when people on my show would ask me about him. As opposed to commenting on what he was saying, I said, “What I see here is a desire for these words.” The fact that Andrew is so popular, and even exists, is because there’s a thirst from men to consume this type. And he reminds me a bit of Dan Peña, with the suits, hard-talking: this is how it is, old school.

And I’ll be honest with you, Joule, if you look at the history of the London Real guests, if you want to put me in the psychiatrist’s chair, it’s actually me searching for alpha male role models.

Joule Sullivan: Interesting.

Brian Rose: It really is. Isn’t that interesting?

Joule Sullivan: Profile yourself. It’s amazing.

Brian Rose: Yeah. Because people always used to ask me, “How come you don’t have more of this, and more women, and more diversity?” And I was like, it’s my show and I want to have the person in the chair. But when you look at all these figures, from Dorian Yates to Dan Peña, they’re all alpha males teaching me how to be a better male.

And it’s not a comment on my father. He was a great one. But I think it takes a village of males to teach you how to be a great man. And I also think you’re always learning, and you need to continue evolving as a male. If I’m really honest, that’s what London Real is.

1:09:34 And so Tate being popular was a sign, in a weird way, that there was a problem. Something was lacking. So your thoughts on that? And then obviously this recent victory of Trump, and a bunch of other masculinity coming to the top. I wouldn’t say we’ve solved the problem, but it’s changed a little.

Joule Sullivan: Isn’t it interesting? History repeats itself. It sounds cliché, but it’s so true. Things go way too far to the left, way too far to the right.

That search for balance is a tricky one. That’s why I don’t necessarily think humans and democracies are a really credible way to run a country. Ideally you have a benevolent dictator who just cracks on with getting the job done, like we see here in the UAE, as opposed to, “I’m going to appeal to the left. I’m going to appeal to the right. I’m going to do the populist thing.” It’s messy.

I think it was lacking that. And I think every man is seeking guidance on how to be the best man he can be, right? We’re tribal animals. We’re meant to be around men. Even the modern-day structure of one man and one woman living in a house with a bunch of kids: is that natural? Are we meant to be around a wife all the time? Or are we meant to be out with other men hunting, raiding other villages, expanding territory and so on, if we’re talking about back in the good old days?

And I think it’s natural for a lot of men to find themselves doing what they should do. “I’ve got the job, I’m saving for the kids’ university, I’m celebrating Valentine’s Day, trying to make my wife happy.” And then they just go, “Wait a sec, this isn’t actually that fulfilling. This doesn’t actually gel with my deep-seated natural urges to go and conquer and build and seek combat and seek risk and be around the brothers.”

1:11:07 When are you happiest? In terms of your inner state, is it when you are going back every day to the house, which is very comfortable, with maybe an amazing wife, a comfortable house? Or when you’re out with the lads facing risk, when you’re fighting, when you’re training, when you’re going into any form of combat? When do you feel most alive as a man? When do you feel most invigorated? When do you feel you’re living naturally?

This is known amongst a lot of veterans: you’ll never sleep better than after a gunfight. That’s the deepest sleep you will ever have, because you’re fulfilling the masculine path that you should be on. It’s a very interesting thing. I don’t believe in victimhood, but the system, modern culture in the West, up until very recently with Trump coming in, and hopefully it all changes, has been pushing men to be good little obedient sheep.

Go and be in a frustrated marriage, but there’s Pornhub. Watch your testosterone drop, but hey, you should be happy with that. No, you don’t have time for hobbies and things, because happy wife, happy life. All these things are pushed on men, and it leads to a lot of lack of fulfillment. We see it especially in the younger crowd, where Tate really appeals: the teenage and young-20s guys.

They’ve got so much testosterone. They’ve got so much urge to go out and do the whole fight, fornicate, build, conquer. But they’re being told by society, “No, no, you shouldn’t do that. Sit down.” Essentially, adopt feminine qualities. And if you go to the gym and try to be muscular, that’s a microaggression; you shouldn’t be doing it.

So I think it was inevitable that Tate would blow up, because he speaks directly to that. “Wait a sec. What the modern-day culture wants me to be as a man doesn’t lead to any fulfillment.” It’s okay, to quote Tate, to want to be the guy who can fight. It’s okay to want to have the big muscles.

It’s okay to want to have the pretty, submissive, giving girlfriend. It’s okay to seek these archetypal desires of men. But modern society has tried to say no, that you’re in some way a bad, unethical person should you try to do that. So Tate was always going to blow up.

1:13:15 Brian Rose: How did we get here?

Joule Sullivan: I have a bit of a theory on that, and I know that you’re a pretty open-minded guy. I think both the political and economic powers that be want to control the masses, right? This is what we know, spending a lot of time around leaders and politicians and things, especially back in the day. There are a lot more of the masses than there are of those. There are a lot more of the have-nots than there are of the haves. How do we keep the have-nots suppressed, or comfortable?

Back in the day, it was “go and watch the gladiators,” in that gladiator sort of environment. It was always: entertain the masses, keep them busy, these sorts of things. Nowadays it’s things like football or alcohol or pornography. But there’s this ongoing challenge to control the masses, because they want what the elite have, and there are a lot more of the masses than there are of the elite.

Politically, it’s a lot easier to get people to vote for you if they are scared. If you are divorced from any sense of faith, if you are unhappy in a relationship, you’re going to do what you’re told. If you are beaten down as a man, if you are that plow horse, head down, pulling through the fields every day, you just do what you’re told. A lot of men, when they get married, become self-regulating citizens, right? To quote Tate again: “Oh, I can’t protest at 9:00 p.m. I’ve got to be home by then, or the wife won’t give me what I want.” They become controlled.

I think that’s why that very female-centric relationship model is pushed. You can hook up with a woman, but you’ve got to keep her happy, or she can take half your stuff, and you’re the bad guy and can’t see your kids. What a perfect way to control men. So that’s the political piece: to make sure that the men are easily controlled. No leadership anywhere in the world, if we’re talking politically, wants men to be very much faith-based, bound together with their brothers, freethinking, armed, capable of combat, because that’s a threat to their leadership of the country. So that’s the political piece.

If we look at the economic piece, I think it’s something like 80% of consumer decisions in Western households, predominantly in the US, are made by the woman. That much of the power has been given to the wife in these relationships, or given up by the man. Why is that? Again, if you’re a man who is competent, faith-focused, has his brothers around him, has a really strong family, has an amazing relationship, you don’t need to go out and buy the latest iPhone in order to feel secure as a person. You don’t need any of that external rubbish.

But if I want you susceptible to marketing messages, what a perfect way to do it. I’ll just make you deeply unhappy in your heart. I’ll make you long for any sense of self-worth or achievement from external stuff, so that you’re susceptible to marketing messages and I can push things at you. So again, politically and economically, both of the powers that be… I used to work at one point in a psychological operations unit. I know how messages are pushed onto people by governments. And I’ve also worked in big corporates with marketing teams, so I know how messages are pushed economically.

What a perfect way to control the sheep and get them to do what you want: just crush masculinity entirely and make them thirsty. Instill that mental thirst for the validation of a female, and you will not be any threat to any government, and you will buy exactly what the marketing tells you to buy. If you wake up every day and all you want is, “Oh, once I get the love of that woman, then I’ll be happy. Oh, now I’m married, I just have to keep her happy,” you become a self-regulating citizen.

And with respect to the women out there, it’s the men who overthrow governments. It’s also predominantly the men who make most of the money in the households. Statistics will show that; it’s not a misogynistic statement, it’s true. How then do we keep the men from threatening the political elite, and how then do we keep the men spending on what we tell them to spend? Everyone wins from masculinity being pushed down. But in the short term, the woman of the household thinks she wins, because she gets more control. And as humans, and you’ve seen the good and bad of humans all over the world, in the short term we all want more control.

Brian Rose: And so they get that control. Maybe they like it. They get a little more control. And then they go all the way down that path, and they realize they no longer respect that person. They resent them instead.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, right.

Brian Rose: And so that’s the slippery slope of feminism, perhaps, or maybe of that control dynamic.

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent. One thing I often say is that feminism robs predominantly women of fulfillment in life. Feminism has put a dark stain on femininity, in that it’s labeled a woman who’s sensual and looking to support a man as somehow inferior to a woman who’s all masculine and in the corporate world. I’ll ask you this, bro, because I was in the corporate world for some time.

Have you met a woman, and correct me if I’m wrong, because I haven’t, who’s done decades in the corporate world and is fulfilled? Once? I’ve met ones who are capable, strong leaders, making a lot of money, but once you get to know them, you see there’s a real lack, every single time. Has that been your experience?

Brian Rose: I used to joke about the women I used to meet in London in banking. I remember when you’d meet them, they’d go out of their way to rattle off their entire CV and to project power in the conversation. And I’m just like, why are you doing that? The men don’t do that. But I think it’s because they felt like they maybe had to show you they’re not lacking.

Joule Sullivan: And typically they’ll obsess over material possessions, or there’ll be pets, or they’ll have a husband who’s basically a pet. I see a lot of very powerful corporate and business women who go and find themselves a professor, an academic husband, as a sort of, “Oh, here’s my trophy husband.” I think Oprah had a few husbands like that.

Brian Rose: Oh, really?

Joule Sullivan: Very submissive, but he’s a professor or a doctor or something. It’s the same way a guy goes and gets perhaps a stereotypical bimbo-type wife as a trophy wife. I see a lot of these business women getting trophy men. And I think this is where we’re very different.

I think for a man to be fulfilled, ultimately we need mission. We need challenge. We need struggle. That is our primary indicator of whether or not we’ll be fulfilled as humans.

For women, yes, they can have mission. Of course, go and do whatever you want. I don’t care. But for a woman to be fulfilled, from my lived experience, from what I’ve seen, it predominantly comes down to the relationships in her life.

And if there is not an intimate partner with whom she is essentially wife to a good man, then you can give her all the achievements in the world, all the status, all the money, and she won’t actually be fulfilled on a deep level. We need struggle. It builds us. I’ve seen struggle pretty much break most women, unless they’re quite masculine anyway, which is a very small demographic, and exceptions to the rule don’t negate the rule, as we know.

So I think it’s a sad state of affairs, where feminism is pushing away that natural polarity between men and women. And essentially, I think women are the biggest losers when it comes to feminism. Show me a fulfilled feminist, bro. I’ve yet to meet one.

Brian Rose: I’m thinking right now of my two grandmothers. One of them was my Grandma Benedict, and my grandpa was a cattleman in Arizona, and she was this amazing woman. She ran that house. When the roundup happened, everybody was fed.

She was a figure in that house and a well-respected matriarch. Same with my other grandma, Grandma Rose. The grandpa was a potato farmer, and she was a woman that everyone respected. Nobody messed with her, but she didn’t have to tell you that she was powerful.

She could do that in her way. And I love strong women. As a matter of fact, I prefer a strong woman in the crowd. Just like all of us, we want strong people around us, because it makes us feel comfortable, like we’re in the right tribe.

Joule Sullivan: One hundred percent.

Brian Rose: It has been kind of co-opted in a weird way.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed. I like that word, matriarch. I think it’s an honorable thing to be a patriarch. I don’t believe in “smash the patriarchy.” I think all men should aspire to be patriarchs, leaders of their tribes.

In the same way, a matriarch is that female leader of your family unit, leading the house. It’s a beautiful thing. I often say a good wife is an absolute superpower in every area of your life, from finances to fitness to overall fulfillment. A toxic dynamic with a woman is absolute kryptonite. It will ruin every single part of your reality.

It’s a very important decision for a man to make. Yes, mission is primary, right? That’s what leads to our fulfillment: going out seeking struggle with the brothers, conquest, building. But the single most important decision that a young man can make is who he chooses to let into his family. There’s the birth family versus chosen family discussion. And who you choose to have kids with is a pretty lifelong, impactful decision.

I don’t think anyone’s giving advice to young men as to what to look for. It’s just, “Oh, any time you can get someone to marry you, get on that knee and try and make her happy.” That’s the messaging of modern-day culture. That’s not going to result in anything other than resentment from the woman, a lack of sex in the dynamic, and the man feeling completely emasculated. That’s why you’re going to get figures like Tate absolutely blowing up, because he’s saying, “No, young king, you deserve better.” You don’t have to go with essentially entitlement and laziness and this combativeness that I see in a lot of Western relationship dynamics. It is okay to seek out a giving, submissive woman, as long as you’re a naturally protective, caring provider and protector.

It’s that natural old dynamic that’s been beaten out of the West. And you see it with antidepressant rates. You see it with divorce rates. I was at Wild Wadi about a month ago with my kids, and I heard a British couple arguing, and it was so toxic. They were arguing in front of their friends, and in front of me as a stranger.

I was like, is that actually a marriage? These people hate each other. It’s just constant combat and disrespect and stonewalling, to the point where I was just mind-blown. And then someone I was with said, “No, no, that’s pretty much the norm in the West.” It is straight-out combat.

We’re meant to complement each other. God has made us with qualities that complement each other. It’s just been beaten out of the West. Tate said it years ago: “If you interrupt the dynamic between man and woman, then you interrupt the way families are made. From there, you interrupt the way societies are built. From there, you have a dysfunctional, easily led, toxic, but submissive society that can be controlled by both the political and the economic elite.” That’s exactly what we see today in the West. Hopefully Trump will change that. What do you think about that?

Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s interesting. If you look at the West, I’ll say America and the left, they’ve gone in on many of your points. Economically, they’ve made the state the father. They’ve economically incentivized you to get a check from the government, and that way the government literally is the father and tells you what to do, and somehow encourages you sometimes to have a household without a man, etc. So that’s scary.

Joule Sullivan: It’s incentivized. It’s real.

Brian Rose: It’s really worth looking at. The other thing they do is they shame you, because it’s a great way of controlling you. So you’re a bad person because of your race and your history, because you’re ruining the environment, blah, blah, blah. There’s something bad about you. And that’s what the left does, I think, more than the right: you’re inherently bad. And the more we can magnify that, the more we can use that guilt and shame to get you to do X, Y, and Z.

I’ve taught for so many years, and it’s so hard to get someone to have an ounce of self-esteem to take their life to the next level. It’s my job to make you feel great about yourself and to empower you. That’s hard enough. And so when I see this happening, it kills me. And then the other thing they use is fear. We saw that with COVID and the lockdowns. Just by dialing the fear up, they can control you in that way.

Joule Sullivan: Wow. I have a bit of a theory on how that’s possible. To go back to your question: how is it that so many intelligent people can be so easily led, as sheep? I’ve read a lot on sociology, and on how we used to live as tribes thousands of years ago. There was one author I was reading, I should remember the name in order to quote him, or it could have been her: 150 people is the tribe size we’re meant to be a part of.

Now, within those 150 people, in the natural makeup of how things used to be, there can only be so many alphas, because if there are a bunch of alphas without a clear hierarchy, they’ll just kill each other, right? They’ll literally fight to the death. So maybe there are three alphas at different age levels and different capability levels, and they can change as the younger one gets stronger. So you’ve got three alphas in a tribe of 150 people. Let’s say half of them are men. All those other men have to be led to survive, or they’ll get kicked out of the tribe because they’re a threat. They have to be scared and careful, and their survival comes through being subservient and essentially being told how to live and act by the alphas.

So I think, for the vast majority of men, their natural programming on a survival level, even if it’s not relevant anymore, is still there. It’s deep brain stuff that changes slowly. That part of us evolves very slowly over time, right? The majority of men are designed to be obedient, submissive, non-alpha types. And what you’re talking about there is trying to bring that demographic up to the point where it’s like, “Hey man, you want better for yourself. You deserve it. Go and get it.” It’s a very difficult thing to do. You’re fighting against a very old survival instinct, and you’re also fighting against every message that they get from every movie, from every song they listen to.

Brian Rose: It’s wild how all-pervasive the training is. The programming is just everywhere. It’s incredible. Is it by design, do you think?

Is it conscious? I think I’ve heard you talk about this before, and you don’t believe there’s a cabal in a room making these decisions for the world. And I agree with you. I think there are many matrixes.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Rose: I think it’s quite simply easier to control, and all these things propagate, and it just works better. And it’s everyone’s individual job to check out of that matrix and see if they can make individual decisions.

1:27:39 And my question is: are we making progress? Trump has been elected, and he’s probably the ultimate alpha male, and that alone is, I guess, literally proof that a majority of people wanted that. Are we making a turn? Are we changing? What do you think?

Joule Sullivan: I have to believe we are, brother. I really do. I think the social experiment that is feminism, and these new-age relationship dynamics where everything’s equal, has resulted in a lot of women saying, “Where have all the good men gone?” and a lot of men just being frustrated that they can’t find a supportive partner in life. So I think that’s run its course.

I think economically the left is always going to struggle, because you can be as idealistic as you want… I’ve seen this, being in countries that are on their way to civil war. I’ve seen the flip and I’ve seen what follows. Your political beliefs don’t matter if you can’t feed your family. It’s a real thing.

And where I think the left struggles, as communism always has: you can have beautiful ideas, but if the shelves are empty, the people aren’t going to be happy. So I have to believe that the world will naturally, over time, gravitate towards center, center-right, because that’s where people are fulfilled, both in terms of their relationships and food in their belly and general law and order on the streets. I see the appeal of the left, and I see the strength behind the whole victimhood narrative and all these things from the leftist-type, socialist-type thinkers.

But there’s the inherent hypocrisy of it all: the fact that pretty much every socialist leader is what’s known as a champagne socialist. They espouse socialist values while living opulent lives. Anti-climate damage while kicking around in private jets. It’s all so hypocritical. And now that we have social media that, thanks to Elon, is largely uncensored, I think reality is hard to argue with, and the world is moving back towards center to center-right. Reality is very stubborn. You can put forward all the nice ideas you want; reality is still going to win out in the end.

Brian Rose: Jeez, but look how close we got, man. Wasn’t it close? The end of humanity. Obviously Zuckerberg just took a total turn and threw all the DEI out the window, etc.

And you could argue about whether he did that for the right reasons. But I found out that on the same day they took down the censorship and put up Community Notes, they took the tampons out of the men’s bathrooms in their offices. And it reminded me how disconnected I was from that crazy reality in the States. In London I never went to a bathroom and saw a tampon.

But it got pretty far, and the election, you could argue, got pretty close. Pretty wild. So I agree with you: in the long run, you would think it would go back to that center-right narrative. But as humans, sometimes we take things to the extreme.

Joule Sullivan: And we almost had as the most powerful person in the world, the person who’s ultimately in charge of the nuclear codes… There was a study that evaluated, if America went to war against the rest of the world, who would win, and they weren’t sure, but maybe America. We almost had the person in charge of that machine be a diversity hire. Now, I’m not in any way talking about her skin color or her gender. She couldn’t speak properly.

That’s not merit-based. I’m sorry. I’m not being racist or misogynistic by saying: if someone can’t speak properly, why would they become the most powerful person in the world? There must be another agenda. We now know it’s some sort of diversity push from the left.

We were very close to what would have been a lot of global conflict. I believe a lot of people would have died. The left positions itself as the empathetic side of the political spectrum, yet they’re the ones who are most behind the military-industrial complex. And look, a lot of people, at least in my circles, criticize my open appreciation for Trump, saying, “Oh, he doesn’t do enough for the Palestinian cause,” and so on. He is anti the military-industrial complex. That’s enough for me. As someone who spent a career working in and out of conflict zones: anyone who’s going to stop that most evil, most satanic way of moving money around that has ever existed in history, that’s who I want in power.

Brian Rose: That means a lot, coming from somebody formerly in the military. Powerful statement.

1:31:44 Let’s talk about the United Arab Emirates, because this is a place that you’ve called home for a long time. This is a place where I find myself spending a lot more time versus London, for me, and I guess for you, your other options. Why do you choose to be here? And why do people from the West maybe still not understand why we’re here?

Joule Sullivan: I think to answer that question, I’d have to ask: what else is there that isn’t here, that people are looking for? I don’t understand why anyone would want to stay in the West. There are many different things you can talk about: the safety, the cleanliness, and all these different things. In the West, the system is set up to keep you in the slave class that you’re in. The vast majority of people are born and die at the same wealth level, the same socioeconomic status, in the West.

The vast majority. That’s by design. Go to uni, get a job, pay your taxes, die: that is what the West wants from you as a man. That’s very clear. You can’t debate that.

In Dubai, in the UAE, if you don’t do better than you would back in your home country, this place doesn’t exist. The leaders here want you to win. They want you to level up. Everyone, even the construction workers who are making, what, $500 or $600 a month: that’s a lot more money than they make back in their village in a developing country, so they are happy to be here too. Everyone is leveling up by being here.

So the nature of this place is: we want you to win. The system wants you to win. The leadership wants you to win. As opposed to in the West, where they want you to stay in that slave class, pay your taxes, and die. I don’t know why everyone isn’t trying to get over here.

And you’ve heard all the arguments: “In the West, we have democracy. We have freedom.” You don’t have the freedom to walk down the street in London wearing a nice watch. Someone will smack you on the head with a hammer and take it. But you have the freedom to vote in one of two different parties that equally don’t care about you. Sorry, I will sacrifice that freedom.

And people also say, “Oh, you can’t criticize the government, you can’t criticize religion.” I don’t think you should criticize religion. I think people should be respectful of all religions. Some things are sacred. That’s my viewpoint.

Okay, I can’t criticize the government here. Why would I want to criticize the government? I’ve built my entire career here. I was born at the bottom of the ladder in Australia.

I’m financially independent beyond what I could ever have envisaged at the age of 42. That’s because of this part of the world. It’s because of this model here. My family has been raised in complete safety.

You don’t have to worry about all the crime issues, the drug issues, the LGBT barbecue nonsense that’s been going on. There’s none of that here. I’m able to raise my family safely. Why would I criticize a government that does that?

So, these attempts to besmirch the societal model of this part of the world: show me a better one. I’ll wait. I’ve been to 96 countries. My life was travel for a long time.

I was the guy who had to go in and deal with all sorts of mess in all sorts of places. I’ve been to pretty much every continent, every major city around the world. I’ve seen all the different societal models.

I’ve seen behind the curtain. I’ve interacted with security services, with government individuals, the shady guys in the background. I’ve seen how different societies work on a really fundamental level. There’s no better societal model than this one.

I don’t think anyone can really argue against it: this is the societal model that gives everyone what they want. You want to be that guy who goes clubbing and drinks and does all that stuff? You can do that in Dubai. Just don’t be silly and be loud and obnoxious in public, or you’ll get thrown in a cell, which I think is a good thing anyway. Or you want to spend your life going to the mosque, not seeing any nightlife, and putting your kids in a school that is free of any sort of Western degenerate programming? You can do that. Dubai can give you what you want on pretty much every level, as long as you’re following the law and you’re respectful to your fellow citizens and to the leadership that set this place up.

That sounds like a good deal to me. I’ll take that deal, and I’ll take that deal for the rest of my life. I really don’t have any time for people who speak against this part of the world. Show me better.

You’re sitting there saying things like “Dubai is expensive” while you’re paying 50% tax that you don’t even see coming back to you in your depressive, declining Western society. And you want to say Dubai is expensive? Bro, there are people living in Dubai on, what, under $1,000 a month.

So clearly it’s not expensive. It’s how you choose to live here. Try living on under $1,000 a month in London or New York. Those cities are expensive.

And I’d say even more… I’m ranting here, but I’m quite passionate about this. Everyone wants to improve their socioeconomic status. You can do it better in Dubai, in the UAE, than in any other country or city on the planet.

I’m a case study of that. I arrived with no university degree, just some niche skills, 15 years ago. I had no knowledge of the corporate world or any of that sort of stuff.

And now I’ve retired in my early 40s, and I have many businesses, many staff, and I’m able to take incredible care of my family and those in my inner circle. That’s because of this societal model that wants you to win. I will speak passionately and positively about this country for as long and as loud as I’m able to. I’m very grateful to this place.

1:36:41 Brian Rose: Do you think this model will ever be exported to the world, the same way maybe the American model started to move around the world hundreds of years ago? Or is there just going to be too much resistance?

Joule Sullivan: That’s a really good question, bro. I think for this model to work, you need essentially a benevolent dictatorship that’s backed by faith. So there are a number of different factors there. And it’s not always easy to find leaders who have complete power but put the people first, especially in this region, and especially if we look at Africa.

And when you do find those sorts of leaders, they tend to get a lot of heat from the outside as well. There’s pressure on this country. There’s pressure on pretty much any leadership that says, “You know what, I am really going to allow people to live their lives the way they want, and I’m going to allow people to level up.” The West doesn’t want that.

And look, I’m in no way going to bring Libya or Gaddafi into talking about the UAE. Two obviously very clearly different things. But Gaddafi was the sort of leader who, yes, had a lot of negative traits, and I’m not debating that, but also: free healthcare, free medical. His dream was for every one of the citizens to own their own home. He was anti-riba, which is loans. He wanted the oil belt to be self-sufficient, he wanted to create new currencies for his people, and he wanted to put his people first. “Oh, dictator, got to get rid of him.”

Any time you’re pushing against that Western system of essentially “keep the slaves in their box, pay taxes and die,” you’re going to get a lot of heat on you. And again, I’m not looking to excuse the many crimes that Gaddafi committed. But some people think that leaders anywhere, in any country, can run a country and also engage in statecraft and conflicts in other countries without doing some things which you might think are bad. That’s not how countries are run. You’re not going to build power, hold power, extend power, operate a country, or keep your region secure without doing some things that are gray area. Read more about politics through history.

So I think a lot of people are criticizing governments for not being perfect. No government’s perfect. No entity that controls power is going to be able to maintain that power while not offending anyone, or without doing anything that someone thinks, “Oh, that shouldn’t be done.” It’s just not realistic.

Brian Rose: How did the UAE pull this off? This country is younger than me, and if you look at the old pictures, there’s literally nothing here, and now it’s where it is. How did they pull it off? Do you ever think about that, what the traits of this are? Because no one’s done it around here. People have done versions of it, but they were the originals.

Joule Sullivan: I’ve had huge discussions with a lot of Emiratis, some of them quite big-name individuals, about how this part of the world came into being, because it’s quite a remarkable story. The one thing a lot of people come back to is the vision piece: believing that a patch of sand and a port could become the best city on the planet, and this country the best societal model on the planet. You’ve also got very strong leadership qualities within the various families that run the Emirates and this country. Very strong. If you read up on them, you see how they rose to power, and decisions that were made under pressure. That’s actual strong leadership.

That’s the thing. I don’t view a lot of Western politicians as real leaders. They’re not. They weren’t bred to be that. You have examples of politicians running countries who used to be actors, or career politicians who haven’t actually done anything.

The leaders of this country were raised by leaders to be leaders. So there’s a real, genuine leadership piece to it as well. I think ultimately they wanted to do something different. They had the vision to do it bigger than had ever been done before, and they had the genuine leaders in place to deliver it. And that’s a very hard thing to replicate.

Again, how many Western politicians can you look at and say, “You know what, that is a genuine leader who can inspire others to work towards a common goal, who can execute on very complex outcomes, who can deliver on very extravagant visions”? How many Western politicians can we look at in that light? They’re scumbags. I’m sorry.

They’re genuine bureaucrat losers. Whereas the people who have set this country up and who are running it, the more you read into it… I’ve been grateful to interact with some of them. These are genuinely impressive, masculine, faith-based leaders.

Brian Rose: Yeah, it’s impressive. I’ve thought a lot about it as well. I think being a port town helps as well, because you were always open to new ideas and new people, because you’re doing business and trade with those people.

Joule Sullivan: True.

Brian Rose: But still, just the vision, and the fact that they are in power for so long, is incredible. I ran to be mayor of London twice. The first time, I went deep into the transportation and the housing and everything. And I remember I had a call with some really high-level architects, and we were trying to solve the housing problem.

I looked at all the guys and I said, “You realize that if we solve this problem, the next mayor is going to take credit for it, because there’s no way we can do this in one term.” People talk about the Boris bikes. That wasn’t his idea. That was done eight years previously by another mayor, and he took credit for it.

And so it’s the fact that you have that long-term vision. And then, let’s be honest, your whole family is tied to that long-term vision as well. So it’s not just whether you’re successful; your family will be judged on that. So there’s a lot of pressure to make those things happen here. But it also creates incredible results that you could argue the West can’t ever get, with that four-year cycle and all the other problems they have.

Joule Sullivan: I think that’s why you see such coordinated hit pieces on Dubai. All these different media articles and YouTube videos are all using the same talking points to criticize Dubai. I think the West doesn’t like Dubai because it knows it can’t compete with Dubai. To your point, a four-year election cycle results in: fight to get in.

That’s the main focus. Enrich myself and our people as much as we can, and fight to get in again. “Oh, it didn’t work. All right, now someone else is enriching themselves.” How is that governance for the people?

Whereas when you have essentially what is here, a benevolent dictatorship, their whole job is to guide their people, to make their people win. They don’t have to worry about elections. They don’t have all this four-year nonsense. And I think it’s vastly superior. But if you’re looking to replicate that, to your point: how do you ensure the benevolent piece? That’s the challenge.

Brian Rose: Right.

Joule Sullivan: Correct. Give a man a bit of power if you want to see his true character. It takes real leaders to have such absolute power and to execute in a way that benefits all of the people. That’s a very rare quality, and again it comes down to the fact that there’s actual leadership here.

Brian Rose: And the fact that they run this place like a business. Once something’s done: how did I do? What’s the feedback? They fire people that don’t make progress. They actually stick to timelines. This is something unheard of in government, let alone a lot of businesses, and they run it like that. It’s a great place to come to get inspired.

Joule Sullivan: That’s awesome.

Brian Rose: And two things I want to make a note of. People ask me why I like it here. I thought about it, and I said, “You know what? When I walk around the streets of London, I look at all the people walking around, and most of the people are phoning it in. They don’t want to be there. They’re not motivated to be there. They’re collecting a check or just trudging through life.” And it’s pretty low frequency. It drags at you after a while. When I’m here, everybody intentionally wants to be here. And like you said earlier, life is better here than in their homeland, by definition.

And the champagne socialists come out and say, “But look at this, and look at this.” Okay, ask them if they want to leave. They don’t want to leave. This is the place they want to stay, or they will go. And being around a bunch of people that intentionally want to be there, it’s the vibrations. It’s hard to describe.

Joule Sullivan: It’s interesting. I’ve lived as an employee. I’ve lived as a business owner. It feels like that switch between trudging to work because you have to, versus, “Wow, I can actually build something here. Every ounce of energy I put in is going to result in some kind of benefit for me and my people.” This city does feel so much more entrepreneurship-based in its frequency. Whereas the West, for me, is just the obedient slave class, to your point, trudging towards work, head down, because they have to.

Brian Rose: Yeah. Sad stuff. Another thing is, I pulled out my phone when I was in the Dubai Mall on one of my first visits. I was doing a vlog there, and I said, “Dubai is what America used to be.”

I was thinking about when my grandpa got there, in the 1800s. It was “Go west, young man.” You go west, you can have the land, you can have the opportunity, there are no taxes, go do it.

It was literally this land of opportunity. And that’s what this is. And America’s not that anymore. It’s all these barriers to entry, and the same in the UK.

I was given a golden visa to live here because of who I am. Dr. Marwan said, “Here it is, Brian.” And I’m like, “Okay, do I have to buy something?”

“No, we want you here.” Amazing. What a tremendous honor, and what a tremendous responsibility, and what a tremendous accolade that someone would do that. Even Tyson Fury said, when he goes to box in Saudi, His Highness says thank you to him. He said, “When I go and make $100 million at Wembley Arena, does anybody from the government say thank you? No, not a single person.”

It’s just this fascinating reward structure, and it’s got so many people wanting to come here and wanting to do things. And for me, I joke sometimes that it’s a little bit like a cult, maybe, because a bunch of people come together and say, “We want to raise our families this way. We reject these ideas from the outside. We want to run our businesses this way. We want our values to be this way.” And everybody comes here who wants those things. Maybe that’s the wrong word, but I kind of look at it as that.

Joule Sullivan: Could be. I mean, I’ve signed up to it in depth, man.

Brian Rose: It could be.

Joule Sullivan: The benefits are there as well. Massive benefits.

Brian Rose: Yeah, exactly.

1:46:29 What do you think is stopping more people from coming over here? Look, there are a lot of weird narratives in America. My dad’s a smart guy, but he’s in California, and he’s like, “Aren’t you close to this and this and this, and these bombs?” And it’s just like, you’re closer to danger living in America than you would ever be here. And so you maybe have to explain that the realities are slightly different here and there. But I think they’ll get balanced out.

Joule Sullivan: One thing this country, in terms of its leadership, is good at is that narrative, the PR machine. I think more and more, there’s so much positive PR going out about Dubai, and I try to contribute to that myself.

Brian Rose: You do.

Joule Sullivan: It’s the truth. I like to put the truth out there. I think more and more people have to realize this is a superior societal model to anything else in the West. I don’t know anyone in the West who doesn’t feel, “I’m paying all these tax dollars. Where does that money actually go?” All of them. Yet at the same time, a lot of people in the West will be like, “Oh, no, you don’t live in Dubai. It’s scary. Very expensive, weird, different.”

There’s a solution. You can live better, not paying tax here. I mean, I pay corporate tax on my businesses. I’m happy to.

Good. I want to give back to this place. It’s given me so much. How many people in the West say, “Ah, great, happy to pay tax”?

It’s just a different dynamic. I don’t know why more people don’t just have a logical sit-down and think, “You know what? For the sake of my family’s minds, economically in terms of our family’s growth, and also just for being in an environment that’s high-frequency, which will enable me to win more in the various businesses that I’m in, there’s nowhere better than the UAE.” It astounds me that more people aren’t just clamoring to get over here. I think they’re going to.

Brian Rose: I think so too. One thing that I noticed when I got here most recently is that all of the media and political chatter just goes down to zero. And there’s something just refreshing about that. I try not to spend my time reading newspapers, but it’s all that “he said, she said,” and it’s been magnified now to become entertainment.

In London, in Britain, maybe they’re the kings and queens of it, with the original publications, and their media is the most cutthroat ever. When I ran for mayor, I got a real dose of, “Wow, the media comes after you.” It’s this whole thing that’s always there, this bickering back and forth, and people tune in. And that gets turned down to zero here, and now you can focus on what’s important: building your business, raising your family, and working on yourself.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly. To your point, at one point, for some reason or another, I had to look at some Australian media outlets. I’m like, they’re talking about politics, but it feels like a gossip magazine.

Brian Rose: Yeah. Who cares?

Joule Sullivan: Really. Are you going to buy a newspaper or watch a TV program that focuses on the bickering and the petty nonsense between a bunch of public sector losers? Who cares? Don’t you want to live a more productive and meaningful life?

I don’t understand how people can give so much attention to the bickering and politics in the Western world. To me, it’s probably the most boring topic in the universe. I’m too busy making money and building things that my people, my clients, my brothers, my staff can benefit from. A little bit more satisfying.

Brian Rose: Although it’s become part of being social right now, bickering about your government. I think the US is making a turn, and let’s see what happens. But for Europe, I don’t see how it ever turns around. Quite frankly, I think it’s going to get worse and worse and worse over the next decade or two.

Joule Sullivan: Irreparable damage has been done, without question.

Brian Rose: Without question. And I don’t see a leader like a Trump emerging. I don’t even know if they can get behind it. I don’t know if they believe in it. It’s still inherently socialist, somehow, to its core. And I don’t know how it ever turns around.

Joule Sullivan: It’s funny. Hey, the Cold War never really did end, did it? And you see a bunch of people from the West who are moving to Russia to escape from communism.

Brian Rose: Oh, how things flip, right?

Joule Sullivan: It’s just hilarious. Oh, how the tides have turned. And I think those sorts of discussions happen a lot in the West. You just don’t need it here.

People are too busy focusing on winning. Why would you whinge about politicians and political ideologies clashing? Sorry, we’ve got stuff to do.

In the same way, I don’t associate with men who whinge about their marriages. Change it, then. Don’t talk to me about it. If you’re not happy with your relationship, fix it.

I will not allow 5 seconds of a man whinging about an intimate partner. No, I don’t have that in my reality. It ain’t real. Go fix it, or don’t talk to me about it.

Same with the political model you’re living in. Don’t whinge about it. Fix it.

Move here. Otherwise, it’s on you, friend. You’re the one allowing it to happen. Vote with your feet, which is what I’m doing right now.

1:52:02 Brian Rose: Awesome. Fantastic. You mentioned that this place doesn’t function without faith. Can you speak on that? And you can speak on your faith as well, because this is where your story, as interesting and unpredictable as it is, takes another unpredictable turn.

Joule Sullivan: Indeed. It’s quite an interesting one. When I was in the military, especially within the intelligence world, there was a focus on the Middle East. It wasn’t necessarily a positive focus.

I won’t say that Muslims were the enemy, but Islam was the boogeyman. It was post-9/11, fairly recently, and there was a lot of focus by all intelligence services on the Middle East. That was the danger area. So then, 15 or 20 years later, accepting Islam was a big step.

Now, I’ve been in the Middle East for 15 years. I had people doing dawah, calling me to Islam, even all the way back in 2004 when I was at language school. I was learning Farsi, and we went to the Iranian area of Melbourne, which is where the language school was. There was a guy speaking Farsi, and he said, “Look, Farsi is great, but you need to learn Arabic.”

And he brought out a copy of the Quran. I said, “What do you mean? Why do I need to learn Arabic?” And he said, and I remember it to this day, “How are you going to learn the truth? How will you read God’s words if you don’t speak Arabic?” I was like, all right.

So in 2004, I had the thought, “Oh, there’s something here about Islam.” I read up on it a lot when I was in the intelligence services. I realized it’s a lot deeper than what Westerners conceive a religion to be. It’s a system for life.

It is the user manual to the human experience. Every component of your life, from your relationships to your business to your daily routines, is written very clearly in order to be the optimized human. A lot of people are looking for that guidance.

A lot of people are looking for masculine leaders. Have a look. I’d love to give you some books, if you’re open to that, about the masculine leadership that’s shown by various figures within Islam. It’s quite remarkable.

And so, around 2012, I’d finished living… I did two and a half years in Tehran and lived in Iraq. And I had numerous friends who, I found out later, after I’d gone, “You know what, I really respect these guys,” were very religious. I realized every single man I interacted with in the Middle East who I really respected, I’d then find out was very religious. I saw a correlation there, or perhaps causation. And I had numerous friends, I’d say six or seven years ago, saying, “You’re more Muslim than a lot of Muslims.” I was like, how do you figure that?

But what was pointed out to me was that my belief systems are not only protected within Islam; they’re encouraged. Being that traditional man. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala loves the strong believer more than the weak believer. You have to be strong.

You have to be combat-ready. It is sunnah, meaning it’s encouraged; that’s what the Prophet, peace be upon him, did. For you to be a traditional-value, strong, capable, dominant, combat-ready man, but also to be very caring, very empathetic with your family, to be a leader who’s able to lead many families, which is what the Prophet, peace be upon him, did. It’s quite remarkable stuff.

1:54:56 You want to talk about masculine leadership? Try managing many, many families while leading warriors in battle, while leading businesses, while having the Matrix… The Matrix came after the Prophet, peace be upon him. It’s very interesting stuff.

Again, I’d love to get you some books on that. So finally coming to the shahada, for me, was very much a logical decision. I saw more and more that evil existed in the world, and of all the different entities or answers to evil, I thought, well, Islam’s clearly the strongest one. I saw Islam as a bit of a force field against all the modern degenerate trash that people are pulled to.

And it’s really helped, in that, to speak plainly, I’ve got more money than I need, and a lot of people in my position get caught up in hedonism: perhaps lots of intimate relationships, or wasting time drinking and partying, or even drugs. I avoid all of that, because the faith that I’ve adopted and accepted to be true very clearly says that stuff is Satan pulling you off course. If we talk about evil existing, nowhere will you find a more encapsulating and detailed definition and understanding of evil than in the study of Shaytan within Islam.

And so you know that all these things pulling you off the straight path, as it’s known, are really Shaytan whispering in your ear, or the jinn, the demons, trying to pull you away from being the man you should be. And you have that written in front of you, and you can discuss that with other men. And you know that if you do certain things during the day, you’re keeping yourself clean energetically. You’re keeping your heart open to God. You’re keeping the akhirah, which is the afterlife, in your heart.

We’re all scoring points, if you will, for the afterlife. Even if the dunya, the physical world, is in your hand, even if you have nice watches and nice suits, in your heart you understand this is very temporary, and we’re going to be judged on our final day. I must be accountable as a man in everything that I do. Where’s the negative to that? Where’s the downside?

And so part of the reason why I believe this country operates so well is that the leaders take their faith seriously. If you’ve got a politician in the West, what is his religion? Ego, hedonism, self-enrichment, power. We’re relying on a human to be accountable to himself.

It doesn’t work. Humans are selfish. Whereas when you have leaders who are backed by faith, they feel accountable to God. They feel accountable to a very strict way of living, a very clear code for life with which to be the optimum human, the optimum leader.

So that’s why I think my moving towards Islam was inevitable. And I said the same about Tate, even 5 years ago. Some people question Tate’s reversion, which is actually a sin in Islam. Five years ago, he and I were saying Islam is the only way to save humanity.

In many ways, he was new to the region and didn’t really understand the depth of Islam, and he probably still doesn’t. He’s stuck in Romania on house arrest. How is he going to walk into a masjid and talk to brothers about the beauty of our faith? How’s he going to experience that deep inner calm in sujud, when you put your head on the ground during prayer, when he’s stuck on house arrest?

He just keeps his old inner circle with him. He doesn’t have any Muslim brothers with him. His old crew is all he trusts to be around him, which is fair enough. So how is he going to experience and expand his understanding and appreciation of the beauty and the depth of Islam where he is? But to those who would question his faith, I’d say, “Man, five years ago he was saying, independently, that Islam is the only way to fight against evil.” He was always going to end up Muslim. It was absolutely inevitable, just a matter of time, as was I, with my belief system as well.

I’m a bad guy in the West. Here, I’m someone who takes his faith seriously, and that’s respected.

Brian Rose: You’re a bad guy in the West?

Joule Sullivan: I am indeed.

Brian Rose: What does that mean?

Joule Sullivan: I don’t know if I’m hated. I don’t know if I’m important enough to be hated, but I definitely am a bad guy. My belief systems, and that which I speak to openly: “Oh, that’d get you in trouble.” You’d be fired from corporate jobs.

You’d be shunned from dinner parties. What I say openly is caveman rhetoric, and it’s misogynistic, and it’s this-phobic and that. And I’m just speaking sense, just like a lot of what Tate says. It’s just what a lot of people are saying on the golf course among men, except I say it openly to the public. I’ve learned from some brothers who are pretty good at doing that.

Whereas in Islam… I’ll give you an example. When these Vice documentary guys were trying to soundbite us, one of the things that they caught me on was that I said, yes, if Tate wants to take care of multiple families, that’s not a bad thing. And they cut out the bit where I said that, as per Islam, there are ways to do it which are honorable and where all parties’ rights are looked after.

They cut that bit out. So it’s, “Oh look, he’s a bad guy. He’s saying a man can look after multiple families.” That’s one example of many: my belief systems, even from an early age, have been echoed by what I’ve found as an adult within Islam. Super interesting. And again, because we’re in Islamic countries here, my belief systems are not viewed as out there or outdated or somehow wrong.

1:59:58 It’s written. It’s clear. There are very clear rules to follow as a man in order to live by these, what people call, outdated beliefs.

Brian Rose: It’s a big decision to make. Was it an easy decision, ultimately? I mean, obviously you thought about it for 20 years. And you say “revert,” not “convert.”

Joule Sullivan: Definitely.

Brian Rose: Can you explain that?

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, 100%. The idea of using the word “revert” instead of “convert” is a very specific one. If you do enough research and you’re led to taking shahada, accepting Islam because you view it as the truth, then your belief is, and I’ve experienced this personally very clearly, that you’re not converting. You’re not changing.

You’re simply going back to the truth. And the predominant reason why I chose Islam is 15 years of living in the Middle East and 20 years of discussing it with Muslims. I viewed it objectively, even though I came from being a soldier and intelligence professional, where Islam was the boogeyman, the scary one, the enemy, if you will, back in the day. I viewed it more and more as, “Wow, this is the truth.”

The number of times, whether it’s in discussions with brothers who are on the deen and take their religion seriously, or with religious scholars, or from reading the Quran, I’ve read something and gone, “Oh, I figured that out from 40 years of trial and error, and here it was, written 1,400 years ago. Why didn’t I just read this earlier?” I have so many of these aha moments. Sometimes I find myself laughing.

For example, I figured out, let’s say six years ago, when I started to really unlock my entrepreneurial spirit, that the intent with which you go into something is huge. The intent with which you approach it. If you want to get that money quickly and you’re desperate for it, you’re not going to get that money. In the same way, if you are pursuing a relationship with a good woman and you’re like, “I really need this,” you’re coming from a place of insecurity. You won’t get that. If your intent is, “I want to do right by my staff. I want to provide for my family. I want to be a just businessman and make good money,” or, “I want to be a good husband and find a good wife,” you’re much more likely to manifest that positive outcome, because you had that positive intent.

Within Islam, it’s conceptualized as niyyah, and there’s a lot of writing about it. There’s a lot of detail about it. Again, I discovered that very core component, which has enabled me to be very successful, by myself. Even when we started this podcast, I said, “So what’s your intent here?”

I like to set that intent consciously. And every time before you go and pray, you set your intent to cleanse yourself through something called wudu, where you’re washing and cleansing yourself. And then you set your intent when you’re about to pray. There’s this real focus on: I’m living in a conscious manner. I’m setting intent behind everything that I do.

This concept of niyyah, I only figured it out at 36 years of age. What if I’d read it as a teenager and lived by it? How much more successful would I be? How much more fulfilled would I be? That’s one example of so many that really typifies why I genuinely believe, and have lived experience, that Islam represents the truth.

Brian Rose: It’s technology, isn’t it? It’s tech. It’s human technology.

Joule Sullivan: There it is.

Brian Rose: And it was written 1,400 years ago, but it is so relevant to today.

Joule Sullivan: Incredibly relevant. Whether it’s relationships or business or the struggle of leadership or lessons in combat, or the way society and evil will pull you off the straight path. So much of what’s in the Quran and the associated hadith is, I’d say, almost scarily relevant to the plight of masculinity, or being a good human, today.

2:03:09 Brian Rose: What have the reactions been to you reverting, from your peers and from other Muslims in Dubai?

Joule Sullivan: When I reverted, I was in corporate America at a global level at the time. So I wouldn’t say it was negative, but it was the elephant in the room for some time. I thought about growing out my beard just for fun, but I didn’t. Overall, there’s been very positive support from the global community of fellow Muslims. Incredibly positive. So many people giving me guidance, sending me books. Just incredibly welcoming and understanding.

Everyone views Islam as some sort of really strict religion. I’ve had so much support and care and empathy from Muslims saying, “Yeah, this one might be a bit tricky, but here are the steps to do it.” Bro, when you revert to Islam, it’s anything but strict and scary and haram this, haram that. It’s very positive.

Very positive. There’s been a lot of hate on social media, but man, if you’re going to be on social media, you’re going to get hate anyway. Funnily enough, despite all this hate on social media, not a single person has said anything negative to my face. Can’t think why. It might have something to do with being almost 2 meters tall and 106 kilos, but I don’t know.

Brian Rose: You’re not a small guy.

Joule Sullivan: I don’t think that’s it. Genuinely, I’m just being a little bit silly there.

Brian Rose: But that’s most people. It’s all online.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly. It’s never real. And it’s one of the things I learned from Tate, because when I first started spending time with him, I’d see these haters throwing hate at him, even back in the day. And he’d be arguing with me, like, “Bro, relax. It’s not real. It’s noise in the void. It’s not real.”

And I think he said the same: not a single person has said anything hateful towards him in real life. It’s not real. It’s people behind a keyboard living out some negative projection fantasy nonsense.

So yeah, there’s been hate online. Don’t care. Everything that I’ve experienced in terms of reverting has been incredibly positive. I’m very grateful for that.

Brian Rose: Hate online is also just love that was garbled in transmission. They’re fans, man.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah, they’re fans. Look at the time they put in.

Brian Rose: Look at the time they put in. They actually secretly love you and admire you.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah. They literally want your attention.

Brian Rose: It just got kind of garbled up. And that’s why you see some people that engage with those people. I don’t do that too often, but sometimes, just engaging with them, you’ll actually figure out that they just want to be friends, bro. Really, it’s a real thing.

Joule Sullivan: I’ve noticed that often. I’ll engage with the haters, or at least I used to. I try to spend as little time on the screen as possible. And a lot of the time, they’re just looking for attention and they want to be buddies. It’s a bit of a garbled-up fan, as you said.

Brian Rose: Yeah. It’s interesting. London is probably where I started my journey of awareness with Islam. I had a few clients that were Muslim, some guys in the City that I became friends with because we would do business for years on end. And I had some guys that were devout, some guys that weren’t, some guys that would fast for all of Ramadan, working on the trading floor.

Some guys that just would not, and they would go and pray, and some guys would just think. It was a whole thing. And I ended up learning about it. I bought some books on it.

I knew the five pillars. I learned about the Hajj. This was in the late ’90s, and I asked a lot of questions. I went to a mosque in Regent’s Park in London. One of the guys took me just to check it out.

And yet these days, I find the narrative in London is that the reason everything’s wrong in the UK is because of Islam. And then everybody in the US also picks up on that and seems to parrot it back. That never made sense to me, and it always seemed like a really poor and lazy analysis of the situation. I’m going to an event this weekend. It’s called the Satoshi Roundtable, and it’s run by a guy named Bruce Fenton, a very early libertarian and adopter of Bitcoin, and actually a Muslim.

Joule Sullivan: Exactly.

Brian Rose: Which a lot of people are surprised at. But what I found is, he put a tweet out the other day and said trying to blame all this on a religion is just ridiculous. If you want to look at these two realities, maybe there’s one of lawlessness, but it doesn’t really have anything to do with religion.

Joule Sullivan: Well, all this so-called Islamic crime isn’t tolerated in Islamic societies. It’s obviously, clearly not tolerated within Islamic scripture. It is by definition un-Islamic. Just because your liberal norms have resulted in a society that doesn’t have proper law and order, just because your policies of allowing police to feel hamstrung so that they can’t do anything have led to certain disgusting crimes, you can’t blame Islam. Islam is the solution to this sort of stuff. Islamic law would fix all of this stuff instantly in the UK.

So the idea that people want to blame Islam is, I think, just cope, man. It’s easy to blame the boogeyman you don’t understand, rather than, “Hang on, the politicians who we voted for brought in all these ridiculous policies that result in a lack of law and order and resulted in disgusting things happening to the citizens.” Sorry, friends, that is on you, the voting populace. It’s not on a faith that outlaws all of this stuff and calls for the execution of people who engage in these sorts of things.

Brian Rose: Right. So it’s leftism, liberalism gone awry. And now, what did Malcolm X once say? The chickens are coming home to roost.

Your policies are now biting you in the butt, and you’re pointing the finger at these groups, and nothing could be further from the truth. Because, as Bruce tweeted out the other day, look at a place like Dubai: it is majority Muslim, and yet it’s the safest place in the world. So your logic doesn’t work. And yet this continues to be a narrative that’s propagated, not only in Britain but in the US, because they don’t really understand.

Joule Sullivan: And also, I think, again, it comes back to the fact that both politically and economically, the powers that be want people to be sheep. It’s going to be harder to control a man who has strong faith than someone who has weak faith. I don’t take orders on morals from a government. I have a book, and I have a lot of reading, and I have a clear faith that I live my life by.

If you don’t have that… We all need dogma. We all need guidance as humans.

You’re going to get it from popular culture, as we say, may God forgive us. You’re going to get it from chasing the religion of self-enrichment and cash and ego and all these sorts of material things. Or you’re going to get it from politicians telling you how you should live. Who wants that?

I think humans need faith in order to have optimized mindsets for life on the micro level, and also, on the macro, societal level, for societies to win. It needs to be faith-based. Otherwise, where is the guidance coming from? From leaders who are Western politicians, who are clearly just interested in self-enrichment and keeping the slave class slaves?

I think the solution to a lot of the problems that you see in the West would be more faith-based government. I used to think church and state should be separate. But if you do that, then politicians are ruling. They’re not accountable to anything other than how much money they can squeeze out of the system while they’re in for four years. Whereas if you have a combination of church and state, if you have politicians who genuinely feel accountable to God, not just for decorative purposes, but who genuinely feel, “All right, I’m accountable to a higher force. I need to do the right thing,” that’s how you get a functioning society such as the UAE.

Brian Rose: It’s interesting. When I got caught up in this whole freedom of speech fight in 2020, it was a big one, I went back to some of the Founding Fathers and some of the basic tenets and everything that was going on. It went pretty deep. And when you look at that, a lot of people will argue that all of those rules that were put out in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights were only going to work if they were built on a foundation of faith. That was on the assumption that there was a faith, and that men were acting in certain ways, in moral ways. And it wasn’t actually those rules that made America. It was the fact that they were built in a place that was largely of faith at that time.

Joule Sullivan: That’s a super valuable point.

Brian Rose: It was very interesting to entertain, and I think there’s truth there.

Joule Sullivan: And maybe on that, sorry: all the morality that they talk about, all the principles, come from faith.

Brian Rose: Yeah.

Joule Sullivan: So when you take the faith away, what have you got, bro?

Brian Rose: That’s an incredible point. Wow. And maybe it’s kind of back to what you said: this government is based in faith, with everything on top of it. You can’t have one without the other. And I think this is something that’s worth talking about.

And I think it was similar with you. I was dragged to church as a kid by my mom, and I didn’t get why I was there and didn’t want to be there. Religion was maybe going out of vogue in the ’80s and ’90s, and it didn’t make sense. And the older I get, I start looking back and saying, look, this is technology built by humans over thousands of years to make society better. So maybe we shouldn’t throw it out.

And if you look at all of us starting to worship social influencers, and doing our long-distance runs and our fasting and our extreme circumstances… Guess what? Religion has been doing that for a long time. And so we’re actually finding another way to go back to these same principles, like you said.

And it sounds like with Islam, these codes to live by are written down in even more detail, and you can learn them. It’s just interesting to see everybody kind of re-embracing that. I think they are. I am.

Joule Sullivan: Fantastic. It’s beautiful to hear you say these words, because anyone who’s a practicing Muslim understands that a lot of what people are doing, whether it’s modern-day spirituality or meditation or a lot of health stuff like fasting, or even that search to be a better man… How much energy is put into creating content, by the YouTubers out there, and also how much energy is consumed viewing that content, to try and become a better man? Talk to any Muslim about the fact that we have a book that says clearly what to do.

Now, the Quran can be a lot. It can be a bit heavy to interpret at first. At first, have targeted conversations with people who know the faith: How should I be a good father? What am I meant to be as a man?

How am I meant to be a good man? How am I meant to be in relationships? If you talk to people who understand the faith well, the answers are there. It’s not some 25-year-old YouTuber who’s got a couple of Lambos who can teach you how to be a good man. A lot of that search for self-betterment, which is a noble thing, is really misplaced nowadays.

Everyone’s searching for male role models. Talk to some Muslim brothers. They can talk to you very clearly about the fact that the answers are ancient and true. And I think all religions are trying to interpret the truth, right? Islam is the most modern and the most unpolluted in terms of the way the writing was handed down to the current day. To me, it’s the most potent interpretation of the truth.

2:14:56 Brian Rose: What do you think you’ll be doing 10 years from now?

Joule Sullivan: Tricky one, bro. I genuinely don’t know. I’ve gone from being that guy who wants to plan everything. Before Islam, I was all about planning and future focus, and very materially focused. I’ve changed so much in two years.

I don’t know where I’ll be. I’ll give you an example. I don’t wear watches anymore. I was a watch collector for the longest time.

Millions of dollars on watches was my whole thing. I don’t wear watches now. I collect supercars, and now I’ve got a bunch of them arriving. What am I going to do with them? It doesn’t hit the same.

So I’ve gone through so much change since reverting to Islam 2 years ago, I’ve got no idea who I’ll be in 10 years. I’d like to think that my Arabic’s a lot stronger. I’m really pushing into that, because I want to be able to read the Quran properly. I’d like to think that I’m less and less attached to the material world, more focused on family, on faith, on freedom, fitness. The Fs, for some reason. They’re all Fs. But I’d also like to think that my platform has grown, in the same way you’ve built your platform over time.

It takes time. It takes a lot of effort if you’re not showing boobs as a lady. It takes time to build a platform, let’s be real. I see these rapid growths from people who either show Lambos and promise that people can buy their social media agency course and get rich, or a lady showing off her body. Apart from those two ways, it’s very hard to grow a following. It takes time, it takes commitment, the energy you put in over years. It’d be thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hours, right?

So I’d like to think that I’ll follow a path as well in terms of growing a following, without sacrificing my core values, without doing anything I don’t want to do, and just with the intent, the niyyah, being: I want to have a positive impact on as many people as possible. That’s why you do what you do, right? And within Islam, there’s a concept of barakah. I call it the barakah economy, because that’s my lived experience; it’s a bit of a personal interpretation. In the same way, in the West we have that thought of karma: you do bad things to people, it comes back. Within Islam, there’s the concept of barakah: the more blessings you bring into someone’s life, the more blessings come back to you.

That is the only way I can explain the way my life has improved in so many different ways over the last few years. I don’t believe in luck anymore. Within Islam, we believe in qadr, the will of Allah, predetermination. But since not believing in luck, I’ve become the luckiest man I know. Isn’t that interesting? And I think the only explanation can be the impact I’ve had. I’ve had a lot of people say that they’re making healthier life decisions, or that they’ve really resonated, or they’re trying to be a better parent because of stuff I’ve talked about, which I’m very grateful for.

I’ve had a lot of people say that they’ve found Islam and taken shahada, reverted, because of videos that I’ve been involved in, which is a real honor. Those blessings have to be coming back to me, and that’s why I’m hitting new levels of fulfillment every day. There’s no other explanation, between living by Islam and these blessings coming back to me because I’ve had a positive impact on people. I want to keep going with the social media piece, because that blessing economy is real. The more people you can bring benefit to, the more benefit comes back to you. It’s very real, through lived experience.

Brian Rose: So real. I’ve lived it both ways.

Joule Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Rose: And I’ve felt it both ways.

Joule Sullivan: Interesting.

Brian Rose: It can get real dark and ugly when you’re not doing that. And it can get just incomprehensibly beautiful when you are doing that.

Joule Sullivan: Well said, really.

Brian Rose: And will it always be men you’re thinking of? Or, because you’re a man, will that just be who’s attracted to it?

Joule Sullivan: That’s a tricky one. I’ve had more and more women engaging with my content since I started to speak about relationships and traditional values. In the same way men are longing for masculine leadership, “How do I be a good father, a good husband? How do I be a good man?”, I think women are… Obviously, I don’t know how to tell women how to be a good woman.

It’s not my place. I wouldn’t think to. But women are longing for, “How can I manifest a good relationship?” And I think the answer lies clearly in faith, clearly in traditional values.

And so when I do speak to that, it gets a lot of interaction from women who are also searching for the real answers, because the modern doctrine doesn’t work. Modern culture doesn’t lead to fulfilling relationships. Modern societal models and modern relationship dynamics are trash. “Where do I look for some guidance on that?” So perhaps I’ll speak to a female audience more and more, but predominantly, it’s easy to talk to men.

My life is simple. I don’t really talk to women outside my family, to be honest. I keep it very simple, which is also aligned with Islam, which I like, right? It’s someone’s daughter and someone’s wife, and I don’t need to talk to them.

My life is predominantly… I’m a men’s tailor. All my staff are men. All my friends are men. I don’t have female friends.

It’s not something I really believe in, to be honest. I think any man who has a female friend, if she was to get a little bit saucy and say, “Hey, let’s go and get to know each other a bit better,” is probably going to say yes. So are they really friends? I don’t really believe in the whole concept.

So I don’t think I’ll have that much to do with women, out of respect more than anything else, and wanting to keep my life very simple and risk-managed. There’s my family, and then there are women who I don’t talk to. But I do think that my message is valuable for those women who are looking to find functioning, harmonious, mutually beneficial relationships. It’s possible. It exists. Not in the West that often, but it does exist.

Brian Rose: Well, it’s super refreshing to have someone like you calling a spade a spade, and saying even what you just said, which all men know is true. And it feels like the world, maybe after the last four years of craziness, is starting to question everything it’s been taught, and starting to question the traditional people that told us what was what, from our politicians to our teachers to our scientists to our doctors. So I hope there is a new wave of reality. And I also think this amazing shining example of Dubai is a way of showing people that there’s another way to live.

Joule Sullivan: Well said, brother, and I agree with that hope. I’m naturally pretty pessimistic when it comes to humans. I don’t really like most humans. I think dogs, for example, are much better than humans.

But I do feel that there is hope. And I think, to your point, reality is there. Reality is stubborn. You can throw all the leftist ideas you want at reality; it’s still there. And the ultimate challenge I have for any feminist or any socialist is: how are your belief systems working out for you?

If you’re a feminist, you have all the answers as to how men should be. Why are you then saying, “Where have the good men gone?” Are you in a fulfilling relationship? Do you have strong passion? Do you feel looked after, provided for, protected, dominated by a capable man you trust and submit to, which is the default desire of every woman, if we’re talking about the natural way they’re programmed? In the same way, the man wants to feel big and strong and looked up to, respected. We have to feel respected before we can feel loved.

All of these archetypal belief systems and programs in our heads, you can push against them as much as you want. Reality is still going to be there. And so, that challenge: how are your belief systems working out for you? I think more and more people are starting to realize, “Oh, hang on, this whole feminism thing doesn’t lead to fulfillment for any party.”

Socialism doesn’t lead to a functioning, cohesive society in any model anywhere in the world. Reality is very stubborn like that. I quite like it. Reality tends to win in the end.

Brian Rose: Right. I think it’s a question everybody should ask themselves: how’s that working out for you? Be honest with yourself. And if it’s not, then maybe it’s time to look for some new answers.

Joule Sullivan: There it is.

2:22:13 Brian Rose: Joule, you’re a real asset here for the UAE, and you’re an incredible guy to follow. You make really bold decisions, and people have to respect them, and I’ve been really drawn to you. The faith was a big one. Here’s a guy who’s not afraid to go ahead and be who he wants to be, and to talk about it really intelligently as well. So I think a lot of people get a lot of great leadership lessons.

Joule Sullivan: Thank you.

Brian Rose: And as a guy who’s constantly searching for alpha males, apparently, through my show, you’re one of them. And I think as men, that’s just what we need to do. I had a couple of flashbacks when I was talking to you today. Some of the greatest moments of my life have been surrounded by my brothers.

I joined a fraternity when I was 18 years old in college, and it was 50 guys in a building, average age 20, maximum age 22. It was like Lord of the Flies. And it was some of the greatest moments of my life. I learned how to be a man in a way that no one could ever teach me.

And unfortunately, maybe because of society, I had very few glimpses of that in the future, but I’ve had some, and I’m going to have more. It’s great that you articulated that, because it’s kind of what we all need: to be around our brothers, out there seeking adventure, building better men of ourselves. And I hope you continue giving that message out there.

Joule Sullivan: That’s deeply fulfilling, coming from someone whose content I’ve watched for over a decade. So thank you, bro. That sort of feedback is why I do what I do. I’m not driven by anything other than wanting to have a positive impact on humanity. You have a platform; you have a responsibility, right?

So that sort of feedback hits me in the heart muscle. Thanks, man. I’m trying to achieve what you’ve just said is being achieved. So inshallah it’ll continue, man. Thank you.

Brian Rose: Excellent. And thanks for having me in your country. I’m going to spend a lot more time here.

Joule Sullivan: Sure. Welcome, brother. Welcome. And I have to say, if you don’t mind, as a former interrogator, a former investigator: your questioning style is masterful to experience. Really.

There’s so much, even down to the layout of this room. I’m glad you didn’t choose to be an interrogator, bro, because you would have been a very, very capable one. And it doesn’t pay that well. I’m glad you chose this path instead. You would have been exceptionally good at it, should you have chosen that.

Brian Rose: Well, thank you. I’ve never had a compliment like that from somebody who was in intelligence. So thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Joule Sullivan: Likewise, brother.

Brian Rose: We’ll do more in the future. Appreciate it.

Joule Sullivan: Respect, friend. Appreciate you, man.

Brian Rose: Appreciate you. Thank you.