Full transcript: John Quilter on London Real
6:22 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My co-host today is the lovely Sumaya Jamil, who left her job as a city solicitor, I believe, about the same time that I started London Real, just under two years ago, to go after her true passion, which is cooking, and she created Pukka Pakki to spread the love of Pakistani food. That’s quite a niche there. Yeah, okay. She was one of the original guest on London Real like a long time ago like 18 months and one of our most popular shows and she believed in us back when no one wanted to come over here you know now we have to keep people like Russell Brand out of here and so so thanks thanks for being here and our guest today is mr. John Quilter aka the food busker who brings his two loves music and food together kind of like a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup, right?
7:17 Kind of. Kind of. You’ve got a new video series on Jamie Oliver’s Food Tube, which is pretty much his YouTube channel, where you cook for famous musicians outdoors on the street. Is that, do I pretty much have that right? Yeah, sometimes at music festivals, sometimes in their studio, but yeah, kind of like flash mob style-y.
7:34 So not a beautiful studio or a beautiful kitchen, kind of down to earth. Right, right, okay, very good. But you are, you have some legit credentials, you’ve consulted for like the Ivy, Caprice, Soho House, if you don’t live in London, these are all like very cool and very nice restaurants. You had your own restaurant for a while and you’re on TV all the time on BBC Good Food and things like that. Welcome to London Real.
7:57 Thank you, nice to be here. I want to ask you both, where is my goddamn food? It’s a reasonable question, isn’t it? Hey, you’re the guest, you should have thought about that. This is the second time for Samaya.
8:08 She promised us like Pakistani food last time. And I was like literally mouth water. I was like, oh, what’s she gonna bring? What’s she gonna bring? bring a damn thing and showed up here the same thing.
8:19 You’re just going to have to come over. I like to eat, too. And then I thought maybe John would, but OK. Fair enough. I don’t need it.
8:24 But you’ve got this really interesting niche. Busker, that’s an English term, isn’t it? Correct. So for an American like myself, what would you explain? How would you explain what a busker is to start off with?
8:37 Well, a busker is somebody that sits on the street and plays his guitar and sings or performs in somewhere or another, and people pay some money for that. They essentially pay what they think that was worth. And the motivation for food busking is that I felt that food was very much middle class, middle age, and very exclusive. And if you look at a lot of the food media on telly, it was all about the best, the most expensive, top Michelin-starred millionaire chefs telling you what you should do.
9:11 And that’s not what I think the essence of food is all about. I actually think that the essence of food comes from a place of love. It’s like when you were a kid and you went home, when I got home, I didn’t go, hi, mom, how are you? I spoke to my mother through the larder. I opened the door to the larder, looked in and went, what can I have?
9:31 And it was a well-stocked larder with things that she’d made herself or that she’d bought. And that was, it was an example. It was an example of her love and her consideration and her care for me. And so I think that at the very heart of food is this gift of love. That’s why hot buttered toast in the morning brought to you in bed tastes so good.
9:53 That’s why you have those meals you remember and it’s not the meal, right? Exactly. It’s the meal and the people. Absolutely, it’s the whole thing. That’s why blind tastings actually, there’s an argument to say that they’re not, they actually miss a vital ingredient.
10:06 It’s the emotional ingredient that’s involved. And so I wanted to get that element back on the menu, if you like, on the agenda. And I also wanted to do something that was more down-to-earth, more accessible. And so I looked around at different things. And music is a great, it’s still got a sense of innocence to it, music has.
10:28 It still has this sense of, I made this. And it’s just a simple, joyous, I made this, check it out. And I wanted food to feel like that, or my food, my vibe on it. So for me, food busking is a music promoter’s approach to food, essentially. And so, once you have a muse about what you’re trying to achieve, then that kind of informs all the things that you want to do. And so that’s why I went out there and did different wacky stuff that arrested people’s beliefs and challenged them around their beliefs around food and performance and all the other sort of elements.
11:05 And do you have a big history in the music business? Do you know lots of people? Did you play? Do you know what, just before I came here, I got introduced to Ian Brown, the lead singer from Stone Rosies, who was the, he’s just literally around here. I’m lucky, I kind of know all the big record labels nowadays, and a number of my friends were and are players in that industry. And, you know, for me, for many years, when I was 20, the most important thing to me was what I was wearing, the trainers I was wearing, the club that I was getting into and the music that I was listening to. Food just wasn’t on the agenda, not at 20.
11:49 And it’s kind of like if you look at popular culture, it is music, it’s comedy, it’s fashion. Those things there, food has never been introduced into that area. It felt foreign and not right, and it felt middle class and middle aged. That’s radically changed since the bubble burst in 2009. Because we pursued, I think, small luxuries, like chocolate and coffee and cupcakes and that sort of thing, coffee has been introduced in this area.
12:13 And for the first time ever, it’s now standing toe to toe with music, with fashion. And it feels finally authentic for it to be there. And so that’s what I’m all about. is that new dimension of food and how it finally feels vibrant in that area because now you’ve got 20 year olds who go to Broadway market and they’re wearing the Nike Airs, they’re on the fixed wheel bike, they’ve got the threads, they listen to music and now they’ve got that smoked salmon from the guy in Stoke Newton who cures it himself.
12:47 It’s become an aspirational brand that says so much about you and that’s what food busking about. It’s about that fresh, vibrant, young approach to food. Okay. You know, and not to jump right into Jamie Oliver, but I was just thinking of the Naked Chef. You know, I mean, my stepmother in America used to love watching that when he was just this punk kid and he was living somewhere around the East somewhere and just, you know, that’s, I’m assuming that’s the guy you’re kind of describing now in Broadway Market.
13:12 Essentially, I think it’s, well, that’s actually a bit of a, it’s interesting. A lot of people think that Jamie sits at the top and he does in so many ways. And then you’ve got the Michelin Star boys and you’ve got people like Gordon Ramsay and all these other chefs and it tends to go out in a pyramid way where you’ve got where there’s only one Jamie Oliver but there’s lots of these Michelin starred boys and but actually Jamie has actually it’s incredible really how he has just maintained such a strong level of goodwill out there but it kind of goes that way more expensive more Michelin stars that sort of thing and it’s like that And I like the idea of flipping that upside down, and it’s everything south of Jamie Oliver now.
13:58 So food, it’s changed so radically, and it’s the most exciting time to be involved in food. But now it’s about food entertainment. The days of the celebrity chef aren’t numbered, but there’s a new kid in town, new kid on the block, and that is this kind of food entertainment, which is what food busking is. People like DJ BBQ goes out on Jamie’s channel. It’s using food and comedy, food and entertainment, food and fashion, and Jamie definitely kicked that off.
14:29 There’s no doubt about it. All right. Well, we’re definitely going to talk about celebrity chefs because we were talking about before you came on, and we will get to that because it’s such a loaded thing, the celebrity chef, and I think everyone has a lot of opinions about it, but you know, you’re serving food backstage at these like big concert get-togethers, like some of the bands, and the first thing I thought is what would they be eating otherwise? I mean, there are probably not a lot of choices or these artists probably aren’t used to having like some really interesting food being served to them.
14:56 And are they embracing it? I mean, is this… Oh, it’s really interesting because… So there’s two or three elements to that. There’s the element that…
15:04 There’s the perception that it’s all rock and roll. It’s all drugs and alcohol and they’ve got no time for food. And that’s actually not the case. I’m sure it is in certain places, but it’s not all the time it can’t be because you can’t sustain that. And so food to artists, touring artists is so important.
15:28 And the second element is that these guys are creators. They understand how important it is to get into the flow, to create a healthy environment for creation to happen. And as you guys know, what you put in your body, how you feel about what you’re putting in your body that gets you in the flow, it gets you into a good place so these guys are absolutely passionate as hell about and knowledgeable about creating great food so they’ve really embraced it and because creating food is very similar to creating anything, creating music so when you say food busking they all go oh yeah I know food, I know busking music, okay look what’s this about And I’ve been bowled over by how it’s embraced by them, that they’re so keen at.
16:18 And I guess it’s this, Food Busking is inspired from watching all those rubbish interviews on a Saturday or a Sunday round music, where you see them in different hotel rooms with different presenters asking the same questions. And it’s when the presenter messes up or the guest just as an often and just goes completely off track that you love that. That’s the bit you love when something goes wrong because it’s different and you see another side to the presenter or to the guest.
16:48 What’s great about food busking is that if I’m cooking something for you, then our relationship automatically changes. You move into a grateful, inquisitive role and I move into an authoritative role. Now, if I’m doing something that you’ve never seen before or it’s your favorite dish that you’ve always wanted to learn, your guard completely drops. on, leaning over going, what’s that about? And your guard has gone. And I can ask you really interesting questions. I can get to you in a way that hasn’t happened before.
17:18 It’s a completely different format. So what you get is a really authentic, genuine connection that only food really fosters. Because at the end of the day, it’s that way you come around to my house and I’m going to feed you and it changes the relationship immediately. And that’s what’s really exciting about it. It’s just the ultimate way to get to the quick of things.
17:39 And I didn’t realize I was kind of developing these skills through 20 years of being a restaurateur. Because within seven seconds, I need to make an authentic, genuine connection with you. And I’ve never met you before. So you would walk through the restaurant, and I’d perfect it over years. I’ve been able to do that.
17:55 And that’s not something that’s contrived. At its heart, again, it has that genuine, authentic love, essentially. And I think it’s passion as well. Because if you love cooking, and I think you just really, It’s when someone eats your food, they can feel your passion in your food, and that’s a connection that you can’t make by just saying, oh, I love to cook, or I’m passionate about it. You just really just get that feel from when you eat something that’s been made with that, you know, the love, the passion, the excitement, and seeing someone’s face like totally light up by eating something, oh my God, that tastes like my grandmother used to make it, or this is something I’ve always wanted to eat, like you said.
18:28 My question to you is, you know all the busking that you do, who pays for all this food? Where does the money come from? I mean, obviously you’re feeding like a whole bunch of people do when you go on a set or something for music or something, do they pay you for it or do you do it? It’s lots of different ways. So its original format was that I cooked down at the South Bank every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and you came in and I cooked for you, and if you liked the food, you paid me what you thought it was worth.
18:53 And if you didn’t like it, you didn’t pay anything. Now, nobody never paid, which I thought was really interesting. And in that whole 12-month period, there was only two occasions I actually felt disappointed when people didn’t pay. Now, that was part funded by the people on the South Bend that I worked with. So it wasn’t the best business platform.
19:18 And would it have worked otherwise? No, it wouldn’t, not in London. No, exactly. People just won’t pay. They won’t pay the price that’s enough to sustain that business.
19:29 Because Radiohead did that. They released their albums and paid what you want. but then again, you know, they tour and they do all these other things, so. I think it’s when you get to a certain level, you can do that. It’s really, and it, I’ve got to say, as a study of human behavior, it was incredible.
19:47 I didn’t set out to do that, but it totally blew me away on what I learned about people. I think probably the two most rewarding elements of that was the first one, especially in Britain, where we are so, we love rules in the UK. We love red tape. We are quite closed down, essentially. Yeah, love queuing.
20:09 Oh, my goodness. And it’s now you’re not observed that one time. One of my clients, he’d be like, Brian, the English love to queue. Well, they love to queue so they can moan. Yeah, but it’s all about the moaning.
20:19 It’s always about the moaning. It’s always like, oh, you’ve got to do this. Oh, but that’s so annoying. And I’m like, why are you doing it? We’ve got the best weather and everybody can’t moan about it.
20:28 And now they’re moaning, it’s too hot, okay? I think everyone moans. I know, everyone moans. But there’s a kind of a moaning. But we’re brilliant.
20:35 There’s a kind of a moaning. So we’re hanker for it. So you haven’t answered my question. So who’s funding it now? What did you learn about British culture as well?
20:40 Oh yeah, that as well. I really want to know what happens now when you go to the place as well. Okay, let me come back to yours. Okay, so in terms of the two big lessons or the two big rewards, the first one was seeing when you walk into a restaurant, there are a whole load of tacit rules, social rules that you are adhered to and especially if you’re not accustomed to those or you’re not well-heeled let’s say, then they can be quite daunting. You know, where do I sit?
21:09 What cutlery do I use? What’s the right tip? How do I behave? And they go on and on and on and they can affect your emotional experience of that straight away. You would tend to just tense up. With this, essentially this thing that was no rules, you could eat this food, You could eat a three-course meal and not pay a penny.
21:28 You could go at any time. There were no rules. It was amazing to see how challenging that was for a number of people because there were no rules and they obviously feel comfortable with those rules. The amount of people who hadn’t tried fish or hadn’t tried this that did because they felt so relaxed, there was no holds barred. So you’ve got people really breaking through barriers, really trying things that they never tried before.
21:53 And it was also really interesting, the amount, and they were always British, that went, oh no, you’re going to have to tell me how much you want for this, and I’d go, no. There was no suggested price. Nothing, nothing ever. And they would be like, oh no, I don’t feel comfortable with that. And it was just really interesting to see how people really struggled with that.
22:11 I think that’s got a lot to do with the fact that we’re quite closed down as a society over here. And then the other thing that was really rewarding about it was that it’s just seeing people’s behavior around food and how they interact with it and how because you know essentially if you look at things from a bad relationship with food you know we’ve got second to America we’ve got the highest levels of obesity the highest levels second to America of anorexia a whole load of different eating disorders just seeing how how people interact with that and And it was just, that was incredibly interesting and incredibly informative. And I think that’s going to inform what I do in the future going forward in terms of who’s paying for it now.
22:57 So that was, my motivation for cooking on the street was only really ever to do something different. Food busking is always about a left field, original approach. So, and it was always the primary focus of food busking is meeting cool people and breaking down barriers with food, a new interview format essentially. And so today it’s basically, I don’t busk on the street anymore, I’m working with people like Jamie Oliver and all the big record labels and a load of other really cool people to start doing these food busking ideas.
23:37 I worked with Adidas recently, did a great thing for the Olympics where I made different types of popcorn and then you played rock, paper, scissors. If you won, you didn’t pay for the popcorn. If you lost, you had to pay for the popcorn. So it’s not about the payment really or whether it’s a business model, it’s more about an alternative approach. Does that answer your question?
24:01 Okay. How did you hook up with Jamie? What’s Jamie really like? And can you tell us about the series that you got on his YouTube channel, FoodTube? Okay, so this whole thing has been, it’s layers, moving up, moving up, moving up.
24:20 So I’ve funded about three pilots out of my own pocket because of believing this and also because it was original and new, it was too fresh for the sort of mainstream and by doing those sort of things was able to recruit people to the cause and it was just, it was lots of beautiful synergy really. So some talent agents absolutely loved me. One of their husbands was the director of Universal Music. Paul totally bought on and introduced me to Island Records.
24:54 Island Records completely opened their roster. I did a pilot with one of their really cool artists called Angel. That was, and so it’s been about recruiting people to the cause. So now I work with arguably the online producer of video in the world, a company called Diagonal View, super cool business based here in London. And these guys produce, you know, they manage Rio Ferdinand’s channel, they manage a host of channels.
25:21 I think it’s got like seven or eight now. I met those guys last week. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
25:27 Matt Hyman’s the guy behind it. He’s just such a great guy. And they’ve got like two billion hits worldwide. And what’s great about Matt, he’s about creating original content, and before it starts really, and so he saw that there’s a conversation to be had around food that’s fresh and new, and saw that food busking was really about that. So he got on board developing the digital vibe, and then Jamie’s production company, Fresh One, I met one of their key producers, a guy called Lauren Aubrey, who wanted to develop me for TV.
26:00 And so I thought why don’t I bring these two guys together because Jamie just launched his Food Tube channel. Those guys just kicked it off and we got commissioned to do six episodes. So worked with Sony Music, Storm Modeling Agency and Island Records with a host of great talent and shot these really quick formats where it’s basically me cooking a dish with the star. There’s lots of different ways that this can go but at the moment we’re keeping it down to that sort of thing.
26:28 To two, two of you. So it’s me cooking with the musician. Okay so one musician or it could be a group? Yeah it can be a group. Okay and you got six of those in the can already finished? Yeah we the first one went out with John Neumann who’s at number one at the moment. The second one goes out to date with a group, a couple of really cool girls from LA called Deep Valley, again really big.
26:51 Then we work with people like Nina Nesbit, really huge. We’ve been really lucky to work with some great people. And the whole strategy behind food busking was that I’m relatively unknown in terms of main TV. And so I wanted to create a way that I could raise my profile and get noticed. So the idea was to piggyback off these people who’ve got huge audiences, a million followers on Twitter, and it’s worked perfectly with the first episode because John Neumann is at number one. He sold X amount of tunes. He’s at the absolute height of his popularity at that time and the most active and I happen to be right slap bang in the middle of that. So as a strategy it’s worked really well.
27:41 It sounds like London Real strategy. We just have famous people on and right off the back of that. It’s a great strategy of doing that. It’s interesting now because a lot of A lot of people are choosing YouTube as the platform to get their media out there. I mean, you were saying your pilots wouldn’t have been picked up by the food channel.
27:57 When we started London Real, we were like, oh, let’s get on TV. And like a year ago, I was like, I don’t want to be on TV. What’s the point? I don’t want to have to worry about it, get renewed. I can get a good audience by being on YouTube and just being digital.
28:11 And Ricky Gervais now has started his own YouTube channel and they asked him, a buddy I know runs his channel and they’re like, why are you on YouTube? He’s like, because I can put up whatever I want. Totally. I can swear. I don’t need all this stuff.
28:21 Bringing back the guy from the office and he’s teaching guitar lessons as that guy and he’s never brought that character back so there’s a lot of creativity. It’s so exciting because the middle road which is TV can be really it’s really confined also the London’s ahead really as it always is in terms of how we we view our media you know don’t make you guys but I watched 100% off my laptop these days that don’t really watch tele. That’s very much a common trend in London, not so much as you move out. That’s the same I guess in most places.
28:57 But I think for me the guy that most excites me that really showed how it can happen is Jamal Edwards who’s the guy behind SB TV which effectively completely eroded the power base of MTV by just going out there with a load of honest, authentic passion and interviewing these guys, his musical heroes, getting to know them, pure passion-based, that’s it, just I love this and I care about it. And he’s, him, like a load of other YouTubers, have been offered the opportunity to go to the mainstream and have gone, no thanks, I can earn just as much if not more, have complete editorial control and you have more opportunities to monetise or to turn your products into to a 360 degree brand. That’s exciting.
29:44 And I think it’s also like how, you know, like a long time ago when I did start the food thing and I was still working, I used to do, I used to blog. And I mean, I still have the blog, but it’s not primarily my work. But, you know, initially blogging, people had time to read blogs and even stuff with like what you do, you know, like actually have time to read. People don’t have attention span anymore. And it’s like people want to see something visual.
30:03 And sometimes I struggle with that. But it depends, it’s a very small minority of people that have the patience to read stuff. That’s why sometimes I think if blogs, if you’re gonna have one, is more visual and that entices you more to stay on and actually read. And if you’re doing something like that that you want your voice to be heard, I think v-blogging and stuff like that’s really, really big. And I think that you speak about authenticity and passion and that kind of pure passion thing only really comes across when you’re able to vocalize it to people.
30:32 And I think that with what I’ve seen of yours, and you can really see that passion. And I think my question to you would be like, Do you think, I mean, you know the food world, and do you think that passion aspect of food has now escaped and it’s more about, can I be the big next thing, big next big thing? Can I be this, can I be that? And suddenly I feel, and I see this because I’m in the industry as well now, is that people have started to lose the passion angle and they start, and the authenticity, and they started focusing on other things like how do I become big?
31:03 Maybe I’ll not be, you know, I won’t hold on to my integrity. I’ll do anything to get there. Now, how do you keep your integrity alive and how do you keep your authenticity alive when you’re tempted by all these different things that you know you can become popular with? I think that’s a great question. And I think that it’s such a good question because- I’m asking that so you can help me out.
31:26 My dilemma with that one. You really wanna know the answer. Oh, I wanna know.
31:32 All I can, I don’t know for other people. All I know for me is that four years ago, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing. I had got everything that I thought would make me happy. My restaurant was in the Michelin Guide. It had won Best Newcomer in Manchester.
31:47 I was getting on telly. I had the trappings of a successful business. Yeah, I just, it wasn’t punching my card. I didn’t feel satisfied. And I knew that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing.
32:02 And so I gave it all up. I turned my back on that and said, I’m never gonna pick up another pan and everyone wants to see another customer again, you know, and committed to, and I asked myself, if I never make the money or if I never have the success, what do I want my life to look like? So not run by those capitalistic motivators, which I think we all did about five years ago, or an awful lot of people did, and that’s why it’s a radical change. And what I found out was was that for me I work really well when I really believe in something.
32:48 In fact, I’m contagious and it’s wonderful. And that works really well, and it’s interesting as well that when I did my first live performance I did it and I came off and I was like, I nailed that. Oh, so good, I was brilliant. Then I watched it back, and I was like, who’s that idiot? I was terrible.
33:09 And it’s because I was acting, I was thinking, that’s what people want to see. And then as I’ve gone through my journey of learning to be a performer, which is a strange thing, because it is a performance, but at the same time, my performance is best when it’s real. And I guess that’s the great thing about being an actor, is learning to bring reality to this performance. And what I saw is the more I was myself, the better I was received, the better I looked, the better I came over, the more convincing it was.
33:39 And so that’s been the real guide for me in my life is that what I do has to be authentic. I could have very easily gone and followed some other way, but it just wouldn’t have been that good. No, that’s great. I mean, I totally believe in that, but I think that what happens is that when you’re doing things like what you’re doing, you’re trying to get ahead, especially in the food world, which is highly competitive at the moment. and it’s all about trending and it’s all about what’s cool right now and tomorrow it may not be and something new may come up.
34:08 And I think that the whole time that you’re being yourself, you also have to have a strategy and you have to know where you wanna get to and how you’re gonna get there. And I think playing the role and playing the game and being normal with all of that, I think, at least to me, I find the hardest thing for me is how do I stay consistent and how do I always grow? It’s like Jamie has grown, like he’s done what he did and now he’s grown, but he’s obviously stayed authentic what he believes in.
34:32 But I think that what you see is that people oversell themselves, and without actually knowing where they’re going, because it gets very exciting when you start getting noticed by big people, and you get sidelined, you’re like, oh, you know, so-and-so likes me now. And how do you keep real within that kind of format? How do you start always saying, I don’t like celebrity chefs, but then suddenly you get celebrity chefs liking you, and are you being unauthentic if you say, hey, I’ll actually go with them because I didn’t like them before, but they’re kind of helping me out.
35:01 So how do you see it true to that? Okay. I think there’s… I think the secret to life is a paradox, is that I think that it’s two opposing belief systems, is that if you just totally focus on one belief system, it’s a paradox. It’s holding two.
35:21 Now that sounds like, oh, you sell out when the money comes. No, not at all. So I hold that as one thought and I think that for me I just, for me I know that I will sell out at my own detriment, that it’s always got to be authentic and I think that you have to, I don’t know about other people but for me I have to be true to me, I have to live myself because you know I moved down to London three years ago with no money no friends down here and no job to go to and no funding behind me at all just went London’s where I need to be I know that’s where it’s at going and there’s been lots of really difficult times when the money’s dried up and it’s like ah this isn’t working but what I learned was was that at those really dark times when it’s really difficult, that’s the time when you go, well, I really care about this.
36:23 This is what makes me happy. And that’s what gets you through. And I think that you learn that that’s the secret to your success. So when you move up the chain and you start getting bigger gigs and you start getting more money, you know that’s your secret to success. You know that. And other people have sold out and this, that, and the other. Maybe they They don’t get burnt, but for me, they lose that special je ne sais quoi, that special thing and I think that for me, if you look at Jamie compared to Gordon, Gordon’s lost it for me and Jamie hasn’t.
36:58 It’s amazing how he’s just maintained, he’s not as edgy and as cool as maybe he used to be, although actually he’s doing some of the most edgiest and coolest stuff he’s ever done on YouTube and his personality as an entertainer, as a comedian, is really coming through now. And like you were saying about Ricky Gervais, these guys are free to really explore and it’s got that frontier feeling on YouTube that is so desperately needed. So you know, it’s like, I don’t know if I’m satisfactory at answering your question, But I think that all I know is that I have to stay true to what I do, and that I always have to bring an element of my contrary, left-field approach to what I’m doing.
37:47 Okay. That’s good. As good as it’s going to be answered. I know you’ve hung out with some pretty famous people, like you’d be the cook for Robert plants of you know what’s up on Kanye West I think you hooked him up with a beverage and I mean is there a metric that’s gonna be like your ultimate success I mean you don’t sound like a guy that’s that obsessed with with these certain things since you had the restaurant lost it but what is your metric is it like a certain musician you want to cook for or do you want to you know get so many views on YouTube or do you want to be at this festival or no they’re really interesting the the only musician that I’ve that I ever kind of worshipped if you like. I just met him before this interview, Ian Brown from Stone Rose, and it was just like, hey you’re doing all right, nice to meet you.
38:36 They just had a documentary on it, right? I think they just had a documentary about them. Yeah absolutely, well they’re huge and they were the band that defined my time going to the Hacienda, being in Manchester. But now I know guys that know him, I know his brother, things change. I don’t think there is, I don’t think there is, you know, I obviously have goals, I would like to do my own television series and I guess that’s, I don’t know, I really believe that if you, I think the key is not getting attached to a whole host of things and it’s It’s like, you know, it’s that paradox again.
39:23 It’s like, I’m incredibly passionate, very driven, and hugely ambitious. But at the same time, you just gotta let it go. And I think it’s all about not being hung up on one thing. Like, a lot of people, I mean, I know lots of people who are in food and are sort of at the same level as me starting off, doing stuff. And they have this obsession with wanting to, say, get a cookbook or get a TV show or whatever.
39:46 And, you know, they just make that their only goal. And I think that is the wrong thing to do. You have to have a direction within yourself as to how you want to grow yourself. And I think that that is what you need to focus on. And it’s this whole, like, because I write a lot, so I always feel like everyone thinks, oh, are you gonna have a cookbook?
40:03 And yeah, I wrote my book proposal and yeah, it’s out there at agents. If someone picks it up, great. If they don’t, it’s not my be all and end all. And it was for a little while. And I fell into that trap and I was like, if I don’t have a book published, that’s it.
40:12 Everyone has to know about Pakistani food. But you know, it’s not about that. I could find an angle to it. And I’ve learned that very recently that I’ve been hanging on to and clambering on to something, but it’s not what you need to do. Absolutely.
40:23 As long as for you it’s cooking, cooking with musicians, even if it’s having your own TV show, I suppose you’d want to have it to the eccentricity of what you believed in right from the beginning. Yeah, it’s interesting. For me, food is not, almost not the primary thing, it’s people. That’s what really excites me. Exactly.
40:40 And food just happens to be my guitar, if you like. And going back to that point, you’re absolutely spot on and I think that, you know, it’s got to be worthwhile, the means has got to be worthwhile, you’ve got to enjoy the process. If you’re not, you’ve got it wrong, it’s not working and I think that’s why when I went through a big life change four years ago, I asked myself, if I don’t make the money and I don’t have the success, what do I want my life to look like?
41:05 And I think what really helps is don’t be specific, be general. Specific is, I’ve got to have a cookbook, I’ve got to have this, I’ve got to have No, that’s not going to work because you’re just going to have this repetitive thing of this is what I want. It’s not here. It’s not going to happen. And if you have a cookbook, so what?
41:21 Yeah, exactly. You know, big deal. It’s not going to make you money. Absolutely. That’s for sure.
41:26 And I did say, you know, I really want to book and I think then I went back to questioning myself and I’m going to ask you that as well, is it what is it that I really do want? You know, for me, my personal passion is I want people to know about my cuisine. But then I asked myself, why do I want them to know about my cuisine? It’s because I’m passionate about it and it’s different from other cuisines and I don’t it confused and that to me became my goal like I was like okay I want to make people taste and feel different like say hey I’ve never tasted this before you know I want to know more yeah so learn from taste and learn from the experience of it rather than being like oh my god okay here’s another cookbook who how many people are going to pick up a book if they see the word Pakistan they say we see the India or Kerala or Bangladesh so it’s all about getting people to taste and I suppose that’s what I understand with you and and what is it that you feel that like like I said that that’s my little goal. What is your like goal as in you know just a small little tiny goal that you may have like wanting to get the TV show or giving what is the goal that you want to achieve? I think the primary generator for me is people so I think that it’s about trying to get drilled down into the subconscious and trying to understand what is the essence of what I’m trying to achieve it’s not a cookbook it’s not a TV show it’s none of that stuff they
42:37 They will be the symptoms or the consequences from a much deeper thing, which is rooted in that I felt that food was all about middle class, middle age. It was exclusive rather than inclusive. My primary goal is about people. That’s why I could just be doing recipes, but that’s not really going to do what I’m trying to do. What I’m trying to do is do something with people.
43:05 It’s really interesting. It’s such a good point. thing about sort of focusing on one thing is that for me producing films is absolutely key to me but it doesn’t have to be on telly but producing that content is vital because you know essentially I didn’t do very well at school I’ve got dyslexia so and and so I academically was considered a failure for many years but um but actually now you mere mortals you’d probably see about eight images per second. A dyslexic can say up to 28 images per second.
43:41 We’re very visual. And so now I understand why I’m driven to create these films and to do that stuff. But it’s about, that for me is, so when I relax the specific idea, i.e. I want to make programs or I want to be on telly, then it’s come to me in a complete, loads of different ways, working on a restaurant concept at the moment, working on a coffee business, working on the food busker, then presenting at loads of different, it’s suddenly become an avalanche, if you like, of lots of different ways for me to use those skills that come under the umbrella of my primary goal, which is about using food as my sort of guitar to break down those barriers and to spread the culinary loving, basically.
44:27 I think a lot of people forget, I mean, I’m very goal oriented, I’m sure you are. And you know, they say about a goal that has to be specific, it has to have a timeline to it, but you find a lot of people set those goals, it happens a lot in jujitsu, the martial art training, guys will work their whole life for a black belt and they get it and the next day they literally don’t know what to do with themselves, they’re depressed, so it’s important to live in the present and live in the moment and know that what you’re doing every day is fun. I mean, I have a lot of fun doing London Real, so one day I want to interview the hip hop artist Ice T and that would be one of my goals, but if I don’t, this is still fun, so I have to make sure it’s still enjoyable.
45:04 It’s that paradox, have a specific goal, but keep it general. It’s like, have a goal, but don’t get attached to it. For me, it’s a paradox. It’s always a paradox, and especially in Western society, we’re so right-brained, logic, goal-orientated, and you’ve got left and right. You’ve got to mix it up ying and yang.
45:28 You’ve got to. Yeah, and I think that’s something I really realized because I haven’t been brought up in this country. brought up in Pakistan, you know, everything is thrown in your face and there’s this very competitive thing of being like really good at school and that’s all that’s ever thrown at your face. And I was like, screw that. I don’t want to be good at school.
45:44 You know, I was just, I just pulled through. But I think that, you know, I really, when I moved here about seven years ago, that’s the first thing I noticed how in school everyone’s just trained to think in this one way. And then I worked in a law firm. I mean, I worked in the city and I realized that there were all these trainees who had come to, and I had never been a trainee. I just worked as a lawyer back home and then I transferred and I started working here.
46:03 And I didn’t, and everyone said, you know, you’ve got such a wide way of like looking at law because I used to see, I used to finance, but I used to see litigation and I used to see tax. And they’re like, how do you see that stuff? Because we’re like this, I’m a finance lawyer. That’s all I see. And that’s the way that people live their lives here is it’s just one dimensional.
46:20 And I think the great thing about food is it’s multidimensional and many, many times forward. And, and one thing I really find interesting is, you know, you said that when you were busking and people wouldn’t pay, like they didn’t know what to do, they got uncomfortable. It’s that because it’s that one point of think, you buy something, you pay for it, you pay for something, you got it, you can zoom it. It’s like people in England will never complain. And I find that so difficult because all we do in Pakistan is complain about everything.
46:45 So I find that’s something quite interesting. For someone listening that doesn’t know what the London food scene is like, because if you’ve never been to London, like I came here 11 years ago and the food scene was very different. It was probably better than it was 20 years ago. But like for someone who doesn’t know, you could argue that London’s probably had the most growth when it comes to a food scene of any major metropolitan city, because it was in the dark ages a little while ago.
47:10 But could you just walk us through, I know it’s a big ass, but the last 10 years and what you think were major milestones, because I had a Brazilian guy that came here one time and he’s like, Brian, I hate London because the food’s horrible. And I was like, this is the best food in the world if you look for it. So. In a nutshell, if it’s possible. So basically, the Britons are a bunch of drunk Vikings that like going around the world, getting into fights and nicking stuff.
47:35 That’s what we’ve done for the last 100 and God knows how many years, right? Not saying a word, but yeah. Maybe 500 years. Maybe longer. Okay.
47:44 And so at the end of the Second World War, we’re essentially bankrupt. And whereas the rest of Europe went back to their culture, their agriculture, and the culture around food, We pursued America’s approach of convenience and manufacturing of food. We essentially lost our amazing culture. And what you’ll remember is, before the Industrial Revolution, there was the Agricultural Revolution. We taught the world how to farm.
48:10 There’s more breeds of livestock in this country than any other country in the world. There’s more types of fruit, veg than any other country. We lost that because of what happened after the Second World War. So then you have this unique situation where 20 years ago when I’m growing up is that we were going for an Indian or a Chinese or an Italian. That’s the only place in the world that was happening.
48:32 We were never going for an English. You couldn’t go for an English 20 years ago. It’s ridiculous. That was a unique situation. And that bred what I like to call the great British inferiority complex, ram food.
48:44 So what that meant was if you feel inferior but you have something to do about it, you try to raise yourself up and look down because you’re actually feeling inferior. So then cheap travel comes along, so we were going over to Spain, bringing like, oh, look at this wine, it’s in a basket, or, you know, it’s in a basket, you know? Or it would be, what, it’d be like lasagna or whatever. So again, we’re the new age Vikings now, bringing all this stuff back to the UK, and then we would go about learning Italian, about French, about Chinese.
49:19 And that’s what we’ve done. So it’s just the same behaviour that we’ve had for the last top 500 years, we’re just doing it in a different way. And what’s happened is, is that we went full circle. We’ve got such a wonderful selection of all those different cultures. And then what’s finally happened is that it’s this generation in the 20s that don’t have an inferior orchard complex anymore.
49:40 Because finally, there are great, we fought long and hard to get great produce, great British produce out there, great English restaurants. The French Bible, La Gastronaut, what is it, Le Rose Gastronomiec, says that the produce from the British Isles is some of the best in the world, because we have a unique geography and climate here. This meant that we’ve got incredible produce. And so finally, you’ve got these kids who, they don’t have a chip on their shoulder anymore.
50:13 And there’s no rules. And that’s why London is the most exciting place to be, because the rule book’s out the window, you can do whatever you want and you can get it anywhere. And I think it’s also a change and shift to people, I mean the new age sort of British people too, how they view immigrants in this country and I think they’re a lot more open to it, they’re a lot more comfortable with it. You know, I suppose I didn’t grow up here so I don’t have that experience of how, you know, you may have felt as an immigrant in the 70s and the 80s and the 90s but I know friends who have and they now say that, you know, life is so different because people want to eat a food and that’s a dilemma that I have trying to specifically pitch Pakistani food and people actually understand that there is a difference now and I think it’s not, you know, it’s all that misconception of a curry being somewhere where you go when you’re drunk.
50:57 Now it’s about I want to know how that specific curry is made and since I teach kukri I now really realize that people actually and all of my students are not like Asian background they’re mainly just like British English background and that’s the view they’re like We know that there’s difference. We want to know what the difference is. And that comes from being comfortable within yourself. And I think that’s, you hit the nail on the head. People don’t have that inferiority complex about food, about people, about immigrants that have like fourth generation immigrants that grew up and don’t even know their back, their roots.
51:27 And I think that they want to know about them. They’re actually comfortable enough to know about them. And that’s the search. I think that’s why food is the most effective way of breaking down barriers. And it’s like, that’s what I saw with music and food is it doesn’t matter what class you are, what culture you are, what country or language you come from or speak.
51:47 If you put a top tune on, you’ve got us nodding like this. If you put a great bowl of food down, you’ve got us, and we move to this universal language of mmm, mmm, and we stop communicating in the very limited format of verbal communication, and we move to body language and all those other types. It breaks every social barrier. Exactly. taste good food. It doesn’t matter where you’re from, it’s good food. And that is the beauty of why I think food today is the new big fashion. And I think it’s probably the only, I mean there is a lot of, I would say, psychophantic behavior in the food world, which I personally have an issue with. But I think there are very few people that keep it real. And not just authentic, but real about what food is. It gives to people, it gives you life, and it gives you happiness, it gives you joy. And it also is there when you’re not so happy to pick you up and I think it’s that personal emotional connection so it doesn’t matter where you’re from or where the food’s from, you might get interested in where it’s from after you’ve tasted it and that is if you all learned how to cook it and feel enabled that you can do something you never thought you could do.
52:52 Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. You made an interesting comment about the sort of breaking the social barriers down and I think that London, more than any other city, is a massive example of that. remember being in cities outside of London and people going, oh, London’s actually quite cold. That’s not my experience of London at all, is that I think there’s more of a sense of community in London than I’ve experienced anywhere else. A good Manchester.
53:20 I love Manchester and I spent 15 years there and not but and there’s such a great sense of community and it’s like when we had the riots, what was that, a year and a half ago, seeing the different communities come together and protect like so for example the Turks in Dalston, the way they came out and worked as a community to protect their restaurants and that happened in lots of other different places and the experience they have on public transport here and the way that people, I think London is brilliant but I think food plays a part in that and I think that it’s breaking down those, you know, in Hapney for example, you can’t afford to be proud in many ways and and you’re so close together with people, you know, you’ve got to get on and it’s there’s so much there to explore around those issues. In London, who’s doing big stuff with food right now? I mean if you think of three restaurants or three people or three even movements going on, what comes to mind? There’s obviously the street vibe that’s happening at the moment like the mobile the mobile food stands yeah the markets the mobile ones and then the kind of what I would call food raves so where they’re bringing music food alcohol together and it’s wonderful you know for me I’ve been trying to recreate the experience of going to the Hacienda in Manchester 20 years ago and that special feeling and that was a big club there it was amazing you know like
54:58 London has been the most important city for wherever, but because of the unique conditions that came together in Manchester, Manchester became the most important place in this country and arguably in the world. For music around that time, it was a really special experience and I moved there for that and I moved to London here three years ago for this new food vibe that feels, I call it a food rave, which is people, and it’s that democratic, into an inclusive feel that music and food kind of bring together. So that’s really exciting, there’s lots of really cool people and it’s really interesting the amount of musos that are moving into food.
55:37 So Dan O’Neill, who’s the guy who used to manage Groove Armada, he’s doing a really cool event in September, 7th of September, called Meatopia, which is the best chefs grilling over open fires, a couple of beers and music playing. Perfect. I was in Glastonbury a few years ago and the food choices were shocking and I’m supposed to go to the love box on Saturday I know grandpa’s going to the love box and like I’m already imagining the food choices being shocking. Is it that bad?
56:06 It’ll be really interesting to see because Dan is behind Love box, it’ll be interesting to see how the food’s improved I’ll be shocked if you don’t think it’s improved Dan. No pressure And I give you my review so you think there’ll be more choices and more because I would just make that festival so much better Yeah, yeah, no food has radically changed there, and that’s probably the most exciting at the moment then you’ve got You know I’m lucky in my job because I get to meet all the top guys I get to so I operate with those guys in The street, but I also present a lot of shows so I get to meet all the mixed in star glads and those sort of gastro scientists And what’s happening in that is incredible and what and there’s been a massive movement now now, which is essentially, you could say, boiling the bag, which is these water baths.
56:56 But they’ve radically changed the consistency. And I think that the biggest trend that I see is the fact that when you get your proteins in now, they’re brined. So they’re soaked in a water-salt solution, which kind of like ziplocks all the flavor into that produce. And then it’s cooked at a temperature no higher than 62 degrees, because at 62 degrees, start leaching all the ingredients, all the good nutrients, all that starts coming out. And so what you’re getting is, but that’s essentially put it in a zip bag, drop it in a water, put it in for 24 hours. There’s no skill involved in that arguably, but it’s delivering the most consistent, wonderful, healthy product that you can get your hands on. Now that’s not to say that there’s no skill left, there is obviously, but that’s That’s really interesting and that’s radically changed and that we’re yet to see, you know, you’re beginning to get kit that you can use at home to deliver that sort of food.
57:51 That’s really interesting. I think the chef, there’s lots of uber cool chefs out there, but for me I think, if I had said the most important restaurant chef the last 15 years, I’d have to say it’s Otolenge. I think that what he’s done is so radical, because he’s made salad sexy. He’s got, and it’s all about, and you eat with your eyes, it’s incredibly beautiful. It’s really healthy, you feel so good when you eat it.
58:24 And you can see his influence everywhere throughout this city. And I don’t actually think he gets the, you know, he is now, but for me, I just think that if you need, you know, That’s one of the cookbooks that you must have, because, you know, I don’t know about you, totally. I mean, I find, I pick up both of, even the old one and even plenty, and I just feel, oh my God, yeah. And you know, there’s, the beauty of his food is that it crosses in so many different boundaries of the world, the flavors.
58:53 And for me, it reminds me of home, that it reminds me of the Iranian-Iranian influences in my food, and then the Moroccan influences, you know, this just, and then even here, you’re like, oh, I grew up with that. And you know, this, he uses good British produce. Is this his full name, just so people don’t know, what’s his full name? Jotam Ottolengan. Okay, and where’s he from?
59:09 London. I can’t remember, but what was interesting is, he’s either Jewish or an Arab, but what’s interesting is the two guys that started it, I don’t know his business partner, but one’s Jewish and one’s an Arab, and I love the way that, and again it’s this love, food at the heart of it has love, and that’s what was great about what he did, is it was just love pumped into that food. And simple stuff like you’re bringing in really fresh simple produce and I think that’s like when grandma made like you know I don’t know rice pudding or something and it used to be like nothing but at least with us there was spices in it but I know here it was just like milk and like maybe nutmeg or something and it says nothing in it but it’s that love that it’s made with and that is what I mean I guess no one does wants to do all those boring things anymore they want to do something quite exotic looking but with such simplicity and that’s what I like and I think right from you his little deli thing that he started off.
1:00:01 I remember when I first moved here, it was just like really small and I used to, when I was a student, I used to always see it here. And never really, I always just liked it because not because it was pretentious, but because it was real in a way of like being presented to be very nice and pretty, but simplicity. And I think that he’s just come across with the simplicity and the love and that’s what people miss. Okay, let’s talk celebrity chefs. Okay.
1:00:23 A little bit of time left. And I’m gonna choose one right away. I took a client to the Fat Duck, to Heston Blumenthal’s restaurant, maybe eight years ago, and I’m so glad I went, and we had this crazy meal, and we had the iPod in the shell, and it was like all these crazy tricks played on your mind, and it was wonderful, and Heston came out, and he took a picture with me outside, and he was the coolest motherfucker there. He was just awesome, he was complimenting my watch, and he was like, he’s like, actually, I don’t like coming to the tables, because when he was like, when he had his first restaurant, he said he was kind of going out to say hi to the people, and someone thought he was like a lowly chef and he was just kind of hovering by the thing and someone was like, what do you want?
1:01:01 Would you leave us? And so he was always timid with people. But then he had shows on BBC and he had these beautiful cooking shows where he would cook these dishes and he would kind of go into the molecular thing and lately I see him on TV and he’s making like a three-story tall cupcake in the park and Heston, I love you and I’d love to have you on the show but it seems like you’re losing your mind a little bit and I don’t know, I mean, maybe you’re having fun and who am I to say?
1:01:24 I mean, I’m doing a show in this shortage studio, but like, I just kinda, he’s lost me a little bit. And I feel like, I don’t know what he’s doing. I don’t know if he’s just branding himself or he’s just doing these crazy stunts. And I don’t feel like it’s about the food anymore. So, am I wrong?
1:01:39 And how do you feel about celebrity chefs, you know? How do you feel about Gordon Ramsay or these other ones? Be careful, because you might have to work with guests. That’s a very tough question. I don’t know, it’s really, it’s one of those questions.
1:01:56 Or am I just hatin’? I mean, if they want to do what they want to do, it’s a free world, they should be able to sell what they want to do or sell what they want to sell. I don’t know. I think that, I think that we’re going to remember that this is food telly and in many ways it’s quite restrictive and they don’t want to be too bold, they tend to stick to a format and very slightly change it. So I guess that’s why Heston’s doing these things.
1:02:24 Heston is one of the most important chefs and has made a global impact. I did a demo with his head chef from his pub and I could not believe what they did for this fish stock which was literally, it almost glowed and I’m sure that it was singing while they tasted it. It was incredible. So in terms of his contribution to cuisine, it’s incalculable, he’s amazing. In terms of what they’re doing on telly, what you’ve also got to remember is, is that it’s, what happened was, is that these top chefs were seen as the way to change our habits around food.
1:03:04 And so they are, they play a massive role in changing the food culture in this country. Like Jamie’s Goldeners and going to the States and… Absolutely. And also, championing local produce, artesian producers, all that sort of action. radically changed and it’s given us a sense of pride back in our food and on the world stage. So it’s huge. Okay who’s your favorite celebrity chef and who’s your not-so-favorite celebrity chef? Oh man, a loaded question. If you don’t answer these questions I’m gonna answer mine. Okay, favorite celebrity chef, I don’t have to say Jamie, but let’s see if there’s somebody else. Who else? Oh my goodness, who do I really like? It’s so difficult because there’s so many different ones but let’s try and I can’t tell you I really can’t because it’s like saying what’s your favorite food it really is but let me think I’ll try and come right so my favorite and least favorite celebrity chef when I say this I say this I when I say this I’ll be very clear about the fact that I don’t want I never want to emulate you I never emulate like I always think they’re great and what they’ve achieved is fantastic but that’s it I don’t want be like them. I think my favorite, it’s really hard. I like food writing, so I would have to say, to me, the one person that means something with food writing and presenting and the kind of recipes is Nigel Slater. Yeah, it was just about- Okay, so Nigel Slater to me keeps food real. She beats you to it. Damn. You should always
1:04:34 Speak up. You had your chance. Nigel Slater to me speaks real food. Yeah, agreed. Unpretentious, simple champion of British produce. I love British produce. I think it’s absolutely fantastic.
1:04:49 And I think he’s understated and he keeps a low profile, even though he has a huge profile. So I think he’s insula, but he’s not. And I think that to me, and he doesn’t try to be anything. He just comes on, he just does this thing and he leaves. Also think his writing is provocative. It’s sensual. It makes food a sexy experience.
1:05:10 Worst worst I don’t think anyone’s worst because I think everyone has Something to give and and I so I don’t really think I mean I may not like them personally But that’s just a personal character. It’s six. Don’t you like in a celebrity shop? What when it when have they gone too far? Maybe Gordon Ramsay with the old all the abusing with all the hell’s kitchens. Yeah, I think it’s you know It just takes away from food. I mean it just I think it takes away from what they’re doing which is food I think he’s talented and I think he had a lot to give and that’s all great But just you know lay back like I think when he went to India and stuff in the way Just be a little bit careful when you go to a country about the cut. Yeah, you’re great You’re huge in your own country, but respect tradition respect culture when you go there That to me made me lose some respect and that isn’t I don’t like to lose respect for people But you know just be a little bit careful about how you treat people for me I think that for me I always come back to this you know is love at the center of what you’re doing And I don’t think it has been for some time ago. Yeah, and um and I know I’ve got to be honest. There’s a lot of food tea that I just cannot watch. I don’t watch any Yeah, I refuse to watch the food television. I can watch this stuff on YouTube Because it’s fresh. It’s original. It’s new and I think that that’s the thing for me is that there’s no
1:06:28 No, it’s time for a change, it’s time for some original, no holes barred, not heavily formatted action and now’s the time for that and I think that you’re going to see that stuff online and then more and more hopefully. Quick question. What’s your feeling about MasterChef? It’s not really a fair question to answer, I like writing John. Of course you do.
1:06:56 They are good guys and John’s got an amazing history and so is Greg in terms of what they do. For me again, I don’t watch it and I don’t watch any of the competitions because it just doesn’t speak to my heart. It speaks to an awful lot of people out there. Great British Bake Off got the highest viewing figures. I think it’s like eight and a half, nine million people watch that. It’s huge and baking is huge but it’s not where my heart’s at. For me it’s time that you’ve got the celebrity chefs and it’s move over celebrity chefs it’s time for the food entertainers to turn up and that’s what I’m trying to do and that’s what there’s a load of bunch of other really cool original people out there that want to want to do something different and for me it’s about getting away from this exclusive like look at Massey’s show it’s all about the best who’s the winner and the tensioner the producers talking to the the contestant going, what are you gonna do if you lose?
1:07:49 You’re gonna feel rubbish, aren’t you? And it’s like, ah! You know, it’s all about- That’s not the entertainment, but it’s like- It’s, it’s, I don’t- I think you personally get quite, I would get very intimidated by, you know, those kind of questions and I’d lose like, my belief in myself. I don’t really think I want that. I don’t believe it, it’s cynical, it’s not real.
1:08:05 It’s not real, and I don’t like that. And you know, I don’t like Nigella coming down at four o’clock in the morning, looking and going, I’m just having a chocolate pot. It’s like, bollocks are you? What the hell’s a camera crew doing in there? You know, it’s just rubbish. I can’t stand her Anyways, all right I gotta ask you a couple London Real questions before we wrap up and here here you go You might have heard these before if you could pick up the phone and make a call to the 20 year old John Quilter and Give him a piece of advice and it can’t be keep going John. You’re doing great What would it be?
1:08:38 Have faith have faith Okay Care to expand on that Um, I think that, uh, so I think that, um, it’s hard if you’re a, if you’re a guy who’s driven, I guess it’s the same for, for, for, for girls as well. But I don’t know how girls feel, you know, I know how I felt when I was 20. And, um, I’ve always been really ambitious, always knew that I had something to give and do, but, and it wasn’t happening in my twenties. I was doing well, I was, you know, I was running restaurants and this happened the other, but I never felt, you know, I never felt satisfied or and I guess I get down-hearted and, you know, it’s like keeping the faith is about realising that it will be revealed what your role is. I believe that in life, especially in the Western society, we’re taught that it’s up and over and actually more More often than not, it’s down and out.
1:09:42 It’s about sitting and waiting rather than working harder and listening because I believe that in time, your life will inform you about what you should be doing, where you should be going, and what you want to do might not have been created yet, might not have been able to happen. It’s like what I wanted to do around food couldn’t have happened three years ago. People didn’t get it. They’re just about beginning to get it now, and that comes back to that earlier question about staying true to yourself and not selling out, is that I get a lot of reward from just doing what I’m doing.
1:10:17 A lot of it hasn’t paid any money at all. In fact, I’ve thrown money at this, but it’s an investment, but I get an incredible amount of reward from just doing the things that I do, but that’s an investment in a long-term thing. of work that spans a lifetime and that will deliver and it’s just beginning to pay dividends. So keep the faith. Okay, that’s a good one.
1:10:41 And that same note, what’s the best advice you’ve ever been given? You know, I’ve worked, I think, I’ve been really fortunate to work with some really big people. So like, Sir Terence Conrad, Raymond Blanc, some of the big ones, but I think the guy that probably inspired and informed me the most was this legendary music manager called Gary McClanney. He used to manage Sasha 20 years ago. Who was the top worldwide DJ at that time? He was plugged into the Hacienda. He ran Shelly’s, which was this super cool club in Stoke. He now manages to DJ call Mr. Scruff. He does lots of really cool stuff like Adidas and whatnot. He’s got a business up in Manchester called Teacup. I’ve helped him with that business intimately over the last five years and Gary, he also set up the Music Management Forum which basically went global so if I want to speak to Stevie Wonder’s manager or Prince’s manager, I just speak to Gary and what’s cool about Gary is that he has a real, it’s the difference, it’s this, is that everything in life boils down into either love or fear. And it’s that idea of having a love approach. Even when you’re scared and you want to go, no, no, no, we should do this. And he just got a real great approach to business. And I’m just trying to, you know, it was lots of nuggets along the way really, but essentially it’s about sort of having a sense of responsibility, being open, being responsible, all those sort of basic things that are real stereotypes, but they’re
1:12:17 They’re all bloody true. Okay, deal. Last question. To the 20-year-old that’s listening to us right now, who wants to be a celebrity chef one day, or wants to be like Samaya that’s created her own business around a specific type of food, or like you, who’s doing food busking, what advice do you give them as to how they can get there? Okay, I’ve got two pieces of advice that really sting out to me from two really successful people.
1:12:41 The first one is Paul Sminecki, who’s the digital director of Universal Music. And when I met him two years ago, he said to me, he said, look, what we say to new bands when they come to us, they say, don’t worry about getting signed. Just keep producing the content. Just keep creating. And what you’re essentially doing is you’re building your back catalog.
1:13:00 So when you are discovered, when it does click, when it does happen, there’s this whole world to discover about you. And that’s, the story is so bloody important. And, you know, I took that to heart and now I’m in that situation where that’s beginning to happen. I got my first proper commission, working with all these incredible people. And now people can see what I’ve done for those two or three years.
1:13:21 They can look back at my career in restaurants. They can see I’ve worked with Adidas and these other really cool things and done original things. Seeing I’ve cooked on the street. When I was cooking on the street two years ago, often I would wake up and go, what the bloody hell am I doing? You know, I’ll be lucky if I just cover my bases this weekend.
1:13:37 What are you fucking doing? But now I look back and people go, That was so original and so cool. And then the second thing is a comedian called Adam Riches, who won the Perry Award at the Edinburgh Fringe two years ago. I employed Adam as a waiter 15 years ago in Manchester, and I promptly sacked him about 12 months later, and we became firm friends ever since. Adam has had a 15-year career of which he only started making money about a year or so ago when he broke through on the Edinburgh Fringe.
1:14:11 This guy has thrown money after money, written different gigs. He’s gone for it, he’s gone for it. Since he won the award, he’s done the most amazing things like flying over to L.A. to meet Will Farrell. Really cool stuff.
1:14:24 And the piece of advice that Adam gave me, which I think is universal, and an awesome piece of advice that is for everybody, is that he said, the reason that I will make it is not because I’m more talented or because I’ve got better contacts. It’s because I will not give up. is that I will keep chipping. And other people that are more talented than me will give up. And it’s as simple as that, is that you cannot give up.
1:14:50 You cannot ever give up on yourself or on what you believe. And that’s why it’s so important to find out, let life inform you about what you really wanna do. Because if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing, when it going gets tough, you will give up because you don’t care enough. Whereas if you listen and you take the time, life will inform you, then you’ll find yourself in the right place at the right time doing the right thing and when they go and get stuff, you will not give up, yeah.
1:15:16 Because you’ll keep the faith in what you believe in. Exactly, because the reward is in the process in what you’re doing, it’s not about making the money. The money will come. Powerful advice from the food busker. That’s awesome, how can people get in touch with you?
1:15:30 YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, all that stuff, where are you? Just put food busker in or John Quilter in and that’ll direct you to Twitter, Facebook, my website and if you want to watch the action with Jamie then just put Jamie Oliver food tube in and boom you will be there. You get six episodes total on that. Second episode goes out today then we’ve got four more and then we’ll have another recommission and there’s other cool stuff I thought. Okay so Maya what’s going on with Pukapaki in the next few weeks what should we expect and how do people get in touch with you? My just PUKA will take you to everything that I do, and I have some exciting things happening. I am teaching at a really prestigious cookery school, well has been around for a long time called Evertamenti. I have a class on the 23rd of October, so that was really great.
1:16:18 Is that the real deal? Yeah, totally. And I cooked in Sophie Greekson’s school a couple of months ago and hopefully be doing that again. So I do my own private classes, another one coming on the 31st of August, which isn’t far from you guys, and I’ve taken a back seat on things like Supper Club, not doing them any anymore, because I think they’re done to death, everyone does them, and that yesterday’s news. And I think what I’m just doing, I’ve just sent my book proposal, so that’s something to look out for, but I’ll be writing to some, lots of magazines, which is really exciting.
1:16:47 So that’s exciting things happening. I recently became a Guild member of the Food Writers Guild, so that’s been really fabulous. Recognition to me as something that’s consistent is what’s important. So just keep looking out and there’ll be more to come. I think saying In two niches not too good, making people realize there’s a lot more around it is what’s really good.
1:17:07 So there are things that are happening with me with the teaching aspect that’s really good and that’s where I want to take my business is maybe one day have my own cookery school. So let’s see. I always see you in the press. I’m like, Jesus. Press.
1:17:18 Really? Like a media machine. I’ve always seen you flying to Ireland to be interviewed by this person and you’re like, what’s the woman’s cooking show that you’re on? Madhu Jafri. Yeah, I was on her cookery school show last year and I’m in her new cookbook as as well my recipes. She’s been amazing and she gave me a lot of really great advice and I’ve taken that on board so that’s really helped. That’s cool every time I think I’m crazy with what I’m doing like left the city and do it I’m just like Samaya did it too. Well we had that bonding thing we did it exactly at the same time. Yeah really weird yeah and it’s kind of yeah both of kind of ticking off and it’s just kind of cool to see and it’s funny I actually I was with our we share a personal trainer at least we did at one point and Matt That was like, he’s like, only you and Samaya, the only people that actually did what they said they were going to do.
1:18:03 Nice. He’s like, everyone else has these business models. Are they going to do this? Are they going to do that? He’s like, they keep doing the same thing.
1:18:08 You have to plunge. You just take that plunge. For sure. And you say, you know, you have to give up on the aspect of money being everything. Totally.
1:18:13 And it’s really difficult living in London, but you know what? You just say, hey, what the hell? I’ll just do it. Absolutely. Yeah.
1:18:20 It was scary at the time, but yeah, no regrets now. I get to meet cool people like you guys. Yeah. John, thanks so much for coming on. You’re not what I expected.
1:18:26 Isn’t that horrible to say? No, you’re a genuine guy and a deep thinker. Not what I expected. No. Really nice to get some of the advice you gave at the end of some of the best we’ve ever received and we’ve had some great minds in that chair.
1:18:42 So all the best to you, I love the whole vibe, I love the whole music thing and I like that ultimately you’re just trying to communicate, which is ultimately all we’re doing here anyway. So I wish you the best of luck with that and yeah. Awesome. And the same to you too. Thanks for having me.
