Dave Waslen - Rabbit Foot: How Gaming, Crypto & Culture Collide In The New Digital Renaissance

Full transcript: Dave Waslen on London Real

3:30 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Dave Woslin, the entrepreneur, investor and Web3 expert. You are the founder of RabbitFoot Technologies, the Web3 gaming studio building real money and social gaming infrastructure across many apps and web-based platforms to unlock new economic engines at the intersection of entertainment, technology and culture. You previously co-founded the groundbreaking 5D metaverse project Wilder World and have raised over $100 million working as an advisor and investor to marquee crypto projects and VCs. Your technical insight and financial expertise makes you one of the leading innovators at the cutting edge of emerging digital economies. Ultimately, you believe that the convergence of gaming, finance, media and decentralized systems marks the beginning of a new digital renaissance, one where ownership is democratized, attention is monetized and communities are the engines of global innovation. Dave, welcome to London Real in Dubai. Yeah, thanks Brian. Thanks for having you here. Great having you here. I want to start by saying that RabbitFoot is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures, the world’s first media powered investment firm where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting edge Web3 and AI companies while giving our partners marketing exposure across the London Real media platforms and academies.

4:46 We heighten awareness, create customers and build communities by leveraging our global audience and extensive network. Dave, we are beyond excited to be part of this journey with you. So let’s jump in. What is RabbitFoot Technologies? Yeah, I mean, you gave a better intro than I probably could, but yeah, we’re a gaming studio. We have a development shop based in Armenia, an incredible team that are building the games for us. So we have iGaming, you know, these are casino games, these are entertainment games. Some are social and just for fun, some are real money casinos and I come from the Web3 space, so they’re Web3 powered enabled and so I’m in a really good time. And then the first product and first label that we’re building is called Jungle Gaming. And so this is a game that we’re building for ApeChain. So we have a really good partnership from ApeChain and we’re excited to build that out for them. So we’re building a Telegram mini app and it’s a social casino. So you can come in, you can buy your coins with stars like directly in the app and then play it directly in Telegram. We’re also building them a desktop and mobile version. So it’s fully branded. We have the complete end-to-end tech stack with the platform, the back-end system, the payment rails, custom games, branding, everything that you need to run a game like this. So we’re excited to launch that with them, launch that with you. And then we have this full suite of tech that we’re able to replicate

6:16 And white label for other brands. It could be mean coins, it could be layer ones, layer twos that want to engage with their user base and give another utility to their token. So really excited about the tech that we’re building and it’s super fun. This term real money, I don’t hear it very often. Why use that? What does that mean? Yeah, there’s two types of casinos. There’s real money which are Fiat and crypto casinos. And then there’s social casinos. And social is a different model where you can pay with real money to purchase tokens and purchase coins. And you can just kind of play the game. It’s just for fun, it’s for entertainment. There are prizes in there.

6:59 You can redeem some of these points and coins that you earn for gift cards or redeem them for cash or prizes. But it’s a different model. So it’s kind of like real money or social casinos. Okay, gotcha. And so there are kind of like different rules sometimes, different regulations, different vibes for those? Yeah, part of it is regulatory reasons. And so there’s this model called a sweepstakes casino. And it’s pretty pioneering. We think it’s very cool. And we’re learning from some of the great ones out there that have kind of discovered and built this model out. So that’s what we’re building. And so we have all different types of iGaming casinos and real money or social. So it’s really fun. Let me ask you a question because you got a ton of experience in Metaverse. And you probably are super aware of kind of the gaming status quo in Web 3. Is it really important that you incorporate kind of some of these real money aspects in there to just give you an edge to draw users in? Because we haven’t seen Web 3 Gaming really kick off. You know, I know you added Animoco. We have a bunch of investments with them. Obviously, Gunzilla has done well. We have an investment in shrapnel, which is another great game. But it hasn’t broken through. Whereas I feel like with this real money and some of the social casinos and sweepstakes, you can get the humans to lean in a little deeper.

8:21 Is that why you chose that niche? Because you think it’ll be, you know, more profitable or faster adoption than opposed to just another game? Yeah, we’re right at the cross section of real money can win, have fun, and earn something, earn a return, and just pure entertainment. You know, so there’s those games like Candy Crush or Scrabble or whatnot that you play, and it’s just like just for fun. And then, yeah, there’s these play to earn games that are super fascinating. You know, like it was Axie Infinity in the last cycle that really, you know, broke barriers, broke walls, and got incredible traction and user adoption because people could, they can make money. They could have an NFT. They could raise it and sell it and make money. And that’s fun. That’s fun for people to, you know, just play something and then, you know, have something that pays for their lunch, their coffees in some parts of the world. It’s meaningful for them. So, yeah, we want to have both. It’s definitely entertainment, but somewhere that, you know, people from all around the world can earn prizes and play and engage. And we think the model of quests and point systems is really powerful, you know, because people can join and they incentivize them to, you know, retweet or like or share or, you know, refer their audience and their friends to join. And that powers the growth, you know, the adoption, the virality.

9:46 So, yeah, we have all those things embedded in our products. And then, yeah, and then if they do well, they can earn tokens, they can earn prizes. We have, you know, a lottery system that has really significant, you know, five-figure, six-figure prizes. So, yeah, so just for engaging and playing with the system, yeah, we think it can be fun and people can earn something, earn something pretty big if they get lucky. You mentioned Axi. Does that mean your initial audience might be third world, second world where income is less or does that not necessarily mean that and can that evolve over time? Yeah, it’ll be both. What we’re excited about is being a studio and being a white label B2B product. So, certain brands and certain labels are definitely going to target those third world countries and third world areas, Africa, Philippines, and go really viral, you know, give them rewards, give them some token upside and really go viral.

10:40 And then some other brands are going to be for gamblers, you know, for people that want a great product. We’re going to be developing custom games that are new content that are going to be on our games. And then we’re also going to white label these custom games for other casinos. They can live in, you know, Stake and Rollbit and other platforms. So, yeah, we’re going to be really targeting extremely good UI, UX product experience for the people that want a good casino. And then some other brands are going to be just super fun, you know, the one we’re building for Ape Chain is, yeah, it’s super fun. The games themselves have, you know, like bananas and apes and like a jungle vibe. The whole theme is jungle. So, you know, those will be more fun and exciting. And we think that’s, you know, clever too. You know, sometimes these memes, sometimes these things that are really grassroots for the community and built for them and have good humor, good design, then the audience likes that. They appreciate, you know, some clever things that you’re doing to tap into the crypto culture, tap into, you know, current, you know, Gen Z culture. So, we’ll do all that. You seem really in tune with communities, like obviously you’re building jungle gaming with on Ape Chain. I know you’ve got this partnership with kind of board ape and all those people, you’re not using the name, but I think that’s also a conscious decision that you made. When did you learn how important it was to really

12:10 Connect with those communities? Is that your experience with Wilderworld or being in Web3 for so long? Yeah, both. Running a token is really hard. Like it’s really hard. You know, there’s like a whole tech product that you’re building, the app, the development team, the product and, you know, raising capital and everything you have to do to run a proper business. And then literally running a token is as hard or harder and more energy and time consuming. So, it’s really hard and it comes down to community. You know, if you want a successful token, you need retail buyers, people that share it with their friends, that are holders, that, you know, talk about it on social media, that that’s your, those are your ambassadors.

12:54 Those are people that kind of get word out. So yeah, with Wilderworld, that’s one of the strongest aspects is our community. It’s really incredible. They appreciate the design, the attention to detail. They really know how hard the team is working. You know, we put out these devlogs that are really long descriptions of everything we’re working on. We send them regularly and the audience is just blown away. And truly, I’m blown away with the quality of the team and everything that they’re building. And the audience and the community, they’re diehards, you know, like they’re the Wilders, like they really appreciate it.

13:36 And so that, you know, keeps the team motivated and you get good feedback from them. And then, yeah, they’re the engine behind the token and behind social media. When you do an announcement, they can, you know, get it out there and proliferate it for you. So yeah, learn this over the years and it’s hard to build, but it’s extremely, extremely important to have a good community, treat them well, respond. And, you know, in Web3, the distance from the retail user to say the management team or the devs or, you know, is only like it’s direct.

14:14 Like you can chat with them in Discord and Telegram. Twitter replies, like, you know, they’re talking directly. You know, in Web2, there’s a lot more gates. It’s a lot harder for someone buying a product to eventually chat with the CEO or engage with them on an AMA. But in Web3, it’s, you know, immediate. And so I think you really do have to appreciate your community and listen to them. So that’s what I’ve learned and what we’ll definitely, definitely do is with rabbit foot. One of the reasons my team was really excited to invest in you guys is because they saw you as a guy that could be doing private equity.

14:51 You could be doing VC and yet you’re getting your hands dirty and going back in. And whenever we asked ourselves, okay, you know, how’s jungle going to do? I don’t know. But then we would just go back to you and be like, well, this guy is going to spend his time doing this with all of this experience. Then we’re just going to back you and this plan. Why do this? You know, when you could be, you know, I guess people always think venture investing is a cushy job, but I don’t know why. A couple of reasons. It’s really fun.

15:22 You know, I mean, I’m a sucker for punishment, you know, building a startup, building a tech company. And in Web3, it’s I honestly think it’s one of the hardest things, you know, someone can tackle. But I think it’s just really, really fun, fun to build games. Build something different. I’m super passionate about Web3. It’s where the world is going.

15:41 There’s more and more adoption every day, every month. And then, you know, for better or worse, I think casino products and gaming is a good business. You know, it exists. It’s out there. It’s longstanding. It’s not going anywhere. You know, I don’t come from this space, but I think we can do really well with it. We can, you know, create jobs. We can give back. We can kind of grow our business and take it internationally. And the other thing that’s great is the team.

16:12 You know, working with really good people, hardworking, honest, everyone’s motivated. We have a really good time. So I really like the people that I work with and the people we’ve assembled in our company. So yeah, it’s going to be a grind, but that’s what we signed up for. That’s life. You have to work really hard. You have to commit. You have to go for it.

16:35 And yeah, I’m really excited. And I think we’ll not go anywhere. We’ll be around a long time. You know, gaming and real money gaming, like you said, that’s a whole other world. But you’ve seen massive success. And you said you might even be building something for a company like Stake with your white label and that kind of thing. And you look at those companies and they’re massively successful. I mean, really, it doesn’t actually get talked about much in Web3, but I mean, they are Web3-ish. I mean, they use a lot of crypto as well, but they’ve had a tremendous amount of success there.

17:06 Maybe one of the most successful industries in Web3. Yeah, I just wonder if you could speak on that and how we can maybe learn from their success. And then really interesting how maybe you can pull communities and then bring them that type of success with your white label. That’s exciting. Yeah. You know, people might not know this, but 50 percent of Bitcoin transactions are gambling related. Wow. It’s like it’s a massive piece of what people use crypto for.

17:35 How does that work? As in they’re paying for gambling in different ways? Yeah. Okay. It’s really remarkable. I mean, exchanges are off-chain. So there’s obviously a lot of volume and transactions on centralized exchanges. But yeah, and so Stake’s done an absolutely incredible job. And even in the gambling sector, the percentage of the pie that was once Web3, a couple percent is now 30 percent of overall global gambling is Web3 crypto-related.

18:11 So it’s taken the industry by storm. And a company like Stake is almost the poster child for that, right? Because they’re like stablecoins and Drake’s putting up stablecoins. And it’s all very crypto in front as opposed to Web3 behind the scenes or Web2 that really puts that front and center. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, they have a really good product and incredible business. We’re learning from them. We want to work with them. And yeah, so I think there’s a lot to go around. People can have different niches, different edge products.

18:43 We want to be really good to our clients. We want to make something completely custom for them, not just the design, but the feel, the onboarding flow, whatever a client needs, we’ll be able to build that for them. Our developers are world-class. Some of them come from other casinos and have a great experience with the products in the back end. And then some of our designers are incredible. So yeah, so we’re excited about who we can partner with and build these games for. And yeah, just align and have a really good time doing it. I think there’s lots to go around. Why do your own game? Is that because is that for marketing purposes, like look what we did with Jungle. And if we can do this ourselves, then guess what, we have the white label. Yeah. And we’re really excited about these custom games, like the actual slot game or roulette or Plinko or Black Jet. We build those actual games themselves.

19:42 We own the entire algorithms and the tech stack there. So it’s really cool because you can design them, have different branding for them. So not only can we build the whole casino engine and entire platform and plug in other game providers, but some of the games we’ve made custom. Investment Club. Today I considered the best investment that I’ve ever made. We get four projects presented a week by their associated CEOs. Personally, I’m completely blown away by the quality of these projects. And I know nowhere else where I would be given this same opportunity.

20:12 Each week that passes, I feel more appreciative of the fact that I’m a member of this group. The vibe was just tremendous. Everybody’s on the same wavelength. We just clicked. Everybody listened to each other, enjoyed their company. It was just magical, magical. Take action. Don’t take my word for it. Through diligence you need to do. And I really hope that someday down the road I see you in the club. A far exceeded expectations without question. From scratch. So it gives us a lot more flexibility. We own the entire revenue stream and we can share that with our partners to give them greater margins. So we’re really excited and our team just has a great time building these things. We can get really creative and build new content. Because Steak and these other platforms, you need new content. The user wants something new, something fun. They want to try a different thing. They don’t want the same crash game or dice game.

21:15 They want something different. Even if it’s the same algorithm and random number generator that creates the outcomes, they just want something different, something fresh. So we’ll be tapping into that and building all kinds of content. Okay. And for you, will there be something after Jungle Gaming as well internally? Do you kind of do your own projects as well?

21:38 Yeah, we’ll definitely have some of our own that we own and control entirely. And I’m excited about targeting regions. You know, become very regional. Languages, certain parts of the world, going into Africa and making something like really, really local. Getting local ambassadors, local teams that are helping and know how to grow in their local regions. So we’re going to go quite regional as well. So not just the brand and the feel, but also kind of really target a local area. And that’s going to be, yeah, really fun. Where does that come from? That strategy?

22:11 Is that from your background or? I think it’s, you know, if you build multiple products, multiple white labels, yeah, I think you could do a different brand aesthetic, you know, and then obviously you have the same brand aesthetic translated into multiple languages, but we want to go really granular into, yeah, just a local market. I think there’s a way that we can capture a really good audience and go deep in the local channels and chat groups and literally like boots on the ground, people that are promoting it. And it’s all about customer acquisition cost, you know, is stake or these other platforms, but you’re going that granular into this certain niche market. You know, maybe not like they’re just, they just have their huge budget, you know, far greater than ours to do marketing expense. But if we can, you know, play a little bit of a different game, we can lower our customer acquisition cost and grow our revenue and use adoption that way. Yeah. Sometimes you find like the right community with the right niche and all of a sudden you just own something that no one even knew existed before, right?

23:23 Yeah. There’s one of our investors mentioned that there’s, there’s like a female finish focused casino and they’re making like 10 to $20 million a year. And it’s like very niche. It’s, you know, but so I don’t know if that’s the exact example, but the point is like really niche audiences. It’s still a big market and people want this. They just want something to play something for fun.

23:49 And so yeah, we’re going to, we’re going to do those sort of strategies too. And they want their culture expressed and acknowledged because they want to be a part of it. Yeah. It’s interesting. Like tonight, I’m supposed to go to the, the karate combat show.

24:02 And I met their president who’s called president awesome. He actually is pretty awesome at the crypto polo on Sunday. And I met him before, but they have their own token and they have this lossless gambling in there. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the model. It’s kind of interesting. So you can kind of gamble with tokens. Like you only make tokens when you win, but then it’s an actual token that is on the exchange as well. So I think I get across a bunch of rules, but you know, people feel a lot of allegiance to the brand and to martial arts and these guys really represent and he’s quite a martial artist and he has his own, you know, dojo and he actually supports martial artists. And so, you know, you want to be a part of his adventure and like, I want to buy the token and I want to go to the events and I want to support him because he, he supports what I believe in as a martial artist. And I can just see how communities like that would really want that. And then the people that want to gamble, especially around this, cause I guess there’s fights that there’s wins and losses.

24:58 It could plug in really well. Maybe a future client for you. Exactly. You know, and it was interesting cause I sat next to the announcers at the one, the fight a year ago at token and my childhood heroes were there. George St.

25:09 Pierre from Canada, like you, who I’ve actually had on my show, boss root and former UFC who I had on my show as well. And then there was the token announcer next to me. And I got to hear him doing the token announcement while the guys were fighting. And so here’s guys doing the play by play. And another guy was doing like the token play by play. And we got a big better now on him coming through in the second round guys betting on a, you know, a straight right to finish this. And it was really interesting and fun. And, um, also web three, and this is interesting cause it sounds like exactly what you’re doing. And then of course they show up at all the web three events.

25:44 And so they’re in a weird way, like they’re there at Bitcoin or they’re in, uh, they were at Austin at consensus. They’re there. And, um, I guess that’s makes sense and profitable to them to do that. So the community really responds to community, you know, and people, people want to be a part of something. They want to be a part of a tribe, you know, whatever, whatever that is. And web three and crypto really offer a lot of opportunities to find a community, find a tribe that you resonate with, you vibe with. And then sometimes you meet the team, you visit, you know, conferences and meet them in real life. And then you feel that much closer to them and you’re connected. So yeah, like it’s, it’s, it’s the way of the future. Everyone wants to be a part of something and be a part of a club. So yeah, it’s interesting cause like we always talk about web two and web three and we throw around generalizations, but if you look at the web two business model, it’s, it’s a bit like steak. It’s a bit like UFC where we scale, we scale, we scale, we scale. We want the billion users. And by definition, that’s, that’s not a community really. And so web three obviously is about community and ownership, but now you’re really starting to see it play out. And if you have the right incentive models, you know, that, that we’re talking about of what you can incentivize your, your grassroots early adopters and give them

26:59 Motivation to bring their friends in and get some rewards and get upgrades and get, you know, spin the wheel tickets and prizes. And then yeah, they, they help. And then if you, if they actually earn some money and then they they’re, they’re with you for life, right? On a token upside, if they can turn, you know, a hundred dollars into 10,000, then they’re with you forever. They, they, they live in and die with you. So yeah, that’s what we want to do. And it’s important to, to respect that.

27:27 Let’s, let’s drill into that a little bit. Cause I’ve never spoken about this, Dave. And this is interesting. You know, when a community member makes money with your token, they do become members from life. The best example is Bitcoin, right? And I’ve been involved in so many other projects and number go up is more important than anything, any gifts and any of this and this and that. And I’m wondering your thoughts on that. And also, does that also apply if they’re gaming with you as well? And do you think that also makes people more interested and also maybe just having fun. So for example, back to the KC thing, you might not win, but also you had an emotional moment putting some tokens, which you didn’t own on the line. How important is that in building community?

28:11 Yeah, I think it’s why you’re doing what you’re doing. If you can make someone money, like they love you and they want to stick by you. They want to support it. They want to promote it for you. It’s just human nature. Like it’s a dopamine hit.

28:24 Is it reciprocity bias and a bunch of other things too? Yeah, probably like they, like people feel good. They look at your website, they look at your Twitter and they want to retweet. It’s like, yeah, like they have that dopamine hit of making money with you. And then they, you know, those micro, micro hits, they can just support you and keep doing that. And they want the token to go up there. They’re holders of your token.

28:45 Or they have an incentive for more audience to come into the network and buy your token or support the product, make bigger jackpots, whatever it is. So, you know, everyone’s aligned. You know, and so I think it’s really important. If you can make someone money, then yeah, they’ll, they’ll stick with you. When you look at web two now, I mean, you’ve obviously just described web three and in web two, we don’t have that ownership layer. Of course, a lot of web three games these days want to bring people in as web two audience members and not confuse them with blockchain and then bring them in. But is, is this web two concept dead or is it always just going to be different? I mean, it’s the goal of web three to bring in web two into the sector and people that are in web three, they, everyone just sees the future. Everyone just knows that we’re going more mobile, we’re going more digital, we’re going more blockchain and crypto focused.

29:43 The rate of adoption of holders and this, this scale and size of stable coin adoption is, you know, undeniable. So yeah, web three wants to bring, bring in web two. I think it’s going younger. Financial systems are going younger. They’re going, you know, you need to be faster with your onboarding, you know, things like registration and KYC, all those tools need to be really slick and fast for a user to onboard. And you can be, you can do that with technology and that’s what crypto is, that’s what web three is. So yeah, eventually, you know, in 10, 20 years, it’s probably people won’t even speak web two or web three, it’s just going to be web, you know, it’s just going to be the internet and people just going to understand online and digital. So yeah, we’re kind of in this period right now. But I think in the future, it’s just going to be blended and everyone’s going to have their wallet and pay for things with their phone and engage online and engage with people around the world. It’s, you know, it’s much more interconnected than it’s ever been and going to be.

30:51 I had a guest yesterday, we were talking about web three companies not issuing tokens because they might want to be acquired by web two companies and how that could just be a real mess if Google was going to acquire you. And then he went further and said, you know what, Brian, I see web two companies issuing tokens in the future, like a Robinhood or something like that. That’s interesting. Do you think that might happen to give that community, that ownership, something that was never blockchain based, but now issuing a token like a Robinhood?

31:20 I totally believe in tokenization. And it doesn’t have to be necessarily token that trades on an open market on an exchange. It can just be points that you can redeem for discounts or free coffee or something. That’s still a token. Whether it trades on exchange doesn’t matter.

31:39 But I definitely agree that not all businesses need to have a token. And as I said earlier, it’s really hard. Like it’s really hard. The management team, capital, attention, community building is really expensive and nurturing your token and keeping the users happy because they have all this other choice in the world for what token to buy. And people are doing it for speculative reasons. They want to make money and it’s really time consuming and expensive. So not all projects should have a token. I don’t think they all need to have one. So it’s case by case. But yeah, I’ve just really learned the hard way, how difficult it is to run a token project. So it’s definitely not needed in every case. But on the flip side, yeah, it’s community building. It’s loyalty.

32:30 People want to have fun. Like people want to earn something, have that little dopamine hit of just getting a couple of points because they shared it with their friend, get something free, get a discount. And that’s fun. I thought I was immune to that. But now I’m on my Starbucks app and I’m racking up the points and I’m just trying to hit a record now. And every time I go there, they’re like, do you want to catch men? I’m like, no. And everybody thinks I’m crazy.

32:52 It’s not new. Loyalty and points. It’s been around for a long time. But mine don’t trade. They don’t have a market value. And they disappear after a while.

32:59 I think they could learn some things from Web3 to make it more interesting for sure. They could integrate more features and then you’ll be even more obsessed about getting the points, using them, redeeming them. But that’s where we’re going. And a lot of these things are being created as we speak. These models are being created. But yeah, it’s fun. We want to be in the cutting edge of that. We want to learn from others and create some of our own systems and strategies. And we think we are. But yeah, it’s fun where the world is going.

33:32 It’s fun to learn about this and be in it. If I want you to white label something for my community, how do I have to pitch you for that? That’s what I want to know. People are listening and they’re like, yeah, this could be really interesting. We got a community and we don’t have an idea on how we can engage this idea. What are you looking for with a partner?

33:53 Well, it’s first of all, a complete partnership. We work together and we brainstorm together. What do you want the brand to be? What do you want as the features? What games do you want?

34:03 What kind of vibe do you want? What’s the goal? And yeah, sometimes the goal is entertainment or sometimes it’s token utility or sometimes it’s engagement with your audience. We have this cool thing going, but there’s times where it gets a bit quiet and we want to give them something else to do and have fun with. And then we can do these games and there can be jackpots and sometimes those jackpots can be sponsored. It doesn’t even need to be a cost to a community to give rewards and engage with your audience and have them have a really good time and earn something because they can be sponsored because then it gets eyeballs and then it’s win-win for everyone. So yeah, someone like you and your group, absolutely we could build something and make it very successful. And then the tech that we’re building, yeah, we’re really, really good at it. It’s really robust. It’s completely from scratch. So we can spin something up very quickly and get it completely custom branded and created and it won’t take that long. And yeah, then we’re off to the races and it’s win-win for everyone. Is your tech on Telegram right now or not necessarily? Or is it mini app? Just at the end? Yeah. Okay, both. Yeah. Telegram mini app and desktop, mobile, so it can be outside of Telegram as well. Yeah, both. Okay, gotcha.

35:19 And yeah, how do you feel about both pros and cons, things on Telegram, things off? Yeah. Telegram, with their billion users, active users a month, is incredible. It can go viral very quickly. They made some announcements where they really want to integrate the TON network.

35:40 And that’s a strategy of theirs that we’re welcome to and we want to support, we want to work with them and get in their app stores and everything and leverage everything they’ve done to have one of the most interconnected social media platforms for crypto. The size of the communities and channels are massive. So things go really viral really quickly in Telegram. It’s just so fast and slick. I love the app. But at the same time, yeah, they have some restrictions or some things we can’t build inside the app. So we have our own custom desktop and mobile web versions. So I download the app. If I want to, I download an app on mobile. Yeah, it’s even not even an app. It’s just a web browser. So it’s even easier and faster to sign up and log in. Then you can put that on your mobile phone desktop and just have it right there.

36:34 Do you think the WhatsApps and the exes of the world are going to be competing with Telegram anytime soon? I get the feeling they’re not with tokens and wallets and things. Yeah, I mean, iMessage, WhatsApp, they’re a little slower than Telegram at creating new features and functions. Telegram really gets it, like these emojis, these responses, these emoticons, all these things. It’s super beautiful UI. It’s fun. It’s fun.

37:05 It’s really fun. You say hello, you tap a little emoji to someone, and everyone’s kind of in this same culture and tribe and club. WhatsApp, it’s not as easy to do that, not as easy to make these groups, these channels. You can’t bring another API and other applications into it. X, we’ll see. I think they’re really pioneering. They have their AI, which is actually a very good product that I’ve used myself. It’s really good. So they’re integrating more and more features. They want to go more gaming, more payment system, and I think they’re really serious about it. So I think they’ll be very fun and very good to work with. So for us, we just evolve. We build whatever makes most sense for growth and what our clients want. What do you think we need to do with Web3 Gaming? And do you think we’ll actually see some real adoption in the next 12 months? Will it take some trigger?

38:09 There’s been hopes for this sector for years and years and years. We have investments, but nothing’s really broken through. Maybe you’d say Gunzilla has, and they recently had a token issue that did okay, but they have some revenues, but it’s still to be seen. What do you make of it? Because you’re not in that sector, but you’re close to it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I’m biased. I think the Wilderworld game and Metaverse World that’s coming out, and it’s in open beta right now, it’s incredible. Like the graphics are incredible. It’s completely AAA grade, and where it’s going beyond just the first-person shooter and the racing game with the open world and having land and avatars and all these NFTs that you can buy, I think is, I think there, they could, Wilderworld could literally shape Web3 Gaming very, very quickly.

38:59 And I think it takes an extremely high-quality product like that to hit the market. And then sometimes you never know what can just catch fire. Last cycle, it was Axiomfinity that just totally caught fire and put Web3 Gaming on the map. And all these businesses that got funded in the last cycle are thankful to Axiomfinity for doing so well that said, hey, these can be multi-billion dollar revenue generating businesses. So a lot of Web3 Games got funded then, but it takes years to build it. So a lot of these businesses have been in development for a couple of years through the market cycles, and they will be coming online very soon. Wilderworld, shrapnel, Godzilla came and they’re doing phenomenally well with their user adoption and the players on the platform. So I think, in my opinion, everyone’s working together.

39:52 We’re trying to craft these models, see how the token can integrate in the game, how the token fly will really… What the London Real Investment Club actually does for you, it gives you the keys to open that door to the inside deals. In the last three weeks, I’ve participated in three incredible deals, a layer two Bitcoin protocol, an incredible AI protocol. The deal flow is beyond what I expected. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a model like this that just gives average folks the opportunity to be behind the deals. And that’s exactly what we’ve done.

40:25 Not only that, you get to hang out with Brian Rose every week. And for me, that was huge because I look at Brian as somebody who’s not only an expert in the space, and I think is on the leading edge, but just the leading edge of thought with London Real and the work he’s doing there. To anyone who’s taking a serious look at this, I know it’s a big decision. It was a big decision for me and my family, and it is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

40:48 So I wish you all the best and hope you come join us. The game is excellent. It’s AAA quality. And then as these businesses figure out the flywheel and the revenue model, that can go back into the token. I think we’re really knocking on the door and in the next one to two years, something is going to take off and then help all these other businesses around it. It’s been a hard criticism to take from the web through gaming world. And I know Yat really well at Animoca, and he’s always the one to step up on the stage and defend web through gaming, saying it’s coming and it takes years to build games and give us time. And he also said that he thought this year for two reasons would be bullish.

42:01 He said, gaming in general will get an uptick from GTA 6, Grand Theft Auto and the new Switch console. And he said that should jack the narrative on gaming. And then a lot of these games will come of age. And I think people just don’t realize how long it takes to make a really high quality game. It’s hard. Like GTA, Counter Strike, all these games, they take six, 10 years to build hundreds of millions of dollars. That’s a long time.

42:26 So people in web three are impatient. Right. You’ve had a year or two years. They invest in the token project, when launch and when listing. They’re impatient.

42:38 But Wild World, for example, has really good support network. Animoca is an investor and everyone behind it really believes in it. So it takes time. But yeah, I’m with Yat. We’re knocking on the door and we’re going towards Ready Player One, the movie and the concept of people just being living in and out of these worlds and playing games and earning currencies in world and then spending it in real life. That’s where we’re going as a civilization.

43:10 Yeah, games are going to be a part of it. The younger generation, they’re playing games. Everything they do in their phone, it’s gamified. It’s fast paced. It’s quick. It’s good UI.

43:19 So that’s where we have to feed the next generation what they want. They’re going to demand it. My son Damon is seven years old. And to get him to talk about much is very difficult. I always say if you ask him how his day was at school, I don’t think a Mossad agent could get him to talk. But if I ask him about what he’s playing on Roblox, I mean, he can barely get a breath in when he tells me everything is going on. So

43:46 It’s crazy. I always say my son Damon owns more digital assets than someone at Token this week. I mean, he really does. And that’s their world. And it’s fascinating to watch.

43:58 It is. It is the future.

44:02 As parents, both of us, we need to make sure that they’re healthy, they’re balanced, they have a good understanding of digital and real world and building real relationships. But I don’t think it’s such a bad thing. Some peers of ours in our era, we played video games growing up. And I think it kind of taught us something about coding, about tech, about UI, about onboarding flow. And I think sometimes that’s important. So I’m not that opposed to kids or our kids playing some of these things, because you can learn. And then over time, they will become in those positions where they’re building these games or working at these companies. And whether it’s a game or not, it’s good learning. So yeah, I think it’s just inevitable. So just treat it the right way and stay balanced.

44:56 Yeah. Unlike when we were kids, I’ve already had the conversation of him of, do you want to make your own game? And he’s like, I don’t know. I don’t think so. My friend said he wanted to. What a crazy conversation. When we were playing games, that wasn’t an option on your Atari. Even at your, I used to play at Apple II Plus, Castle Wolfenstein.

45:12 But I didn’t know how to code that because it was still very complicated. But they’re already thinking about it, talking about it. He’s learning math. He’s learning negotiation, trading skills, all this stuff. And they’re peer to peer. Sometimes I’ll come in and like, little do I know, they’re FaceTiming with their friend while they’re playing Roblox.

45:30 I got to be careful what I say. Then think of AI. They can just do it with a prompt and get something built. And then they can learn about the next step of putting branding and UI.

45:46 We’re accelerating very quickly in this space. How are you incorporating AI into your development? How are your engineers doing that? We do. We do. Everything we do is custom built from the ground up. But we use AI to do some audits. We use it to accelerate some of the development, but then we don’t rely on it.

46:11 It can speed up some of the processes. We use it for sometimes branding and wire framing. Just get some skeletons up there and it really accelerates that process.

46:26 You can have far less overhead and far less size of a team and just leverage AI to get a lot more done faster. We’re using it every day. Super leverage for gaming, right? It’s amazing. What do you make of the overall market? Here we are coming up to mid-25.

46:45 A lot of people are still saying Q4. I always get worried when everyone says Q4. Obviously, they tear us through everybody a head fake, but now Bitcoin’s threatening 100k again. I spoke to Michael Turpin. He was an OG Bitcoiner. He was the only one at all 11 or 12 Satoshi Roundtables. His new book, Bitcoin Supercycle, is out. He’s saying 180k Bitcoin plus or minus 30k Q4. At some point, we’ll break the four-year cycle and go into a supercycle. You’re an OG in this space. What do you think? Also, at one point, does that trickle down into some of these altcoins and the markets that we play in? I believe in the cycle. I believe in the systems.

47:34 I think it’s sometimes self-fulfilling prophecies. If people believe that Q4 and this four-year cycle is a peak, it might happen just because they see it starting to move. They’re like, oh, it’s going to happen. I’m a retail. I’m a dumb, dumb trader, but I’m just going to happen in the past. It’s going to happen again. Then people start buying. Then the really sophisticated traders are leverage trading, and they’re making big bets, and they’re also helping and pushing because they also know that some retail is going to follow the wave.

48:10 And then, again, really smart traders. They’re selling at the top when it’s frothy. Then, for whatever reason, sometimes these macro factors and politics and U.S. regulation, trumping and power, it kind of is aligning eerily. It’s aligning with these cycles. So, yeah, I kind of think that this cycle is going to come around, and we’ll see some new all-time highs in Q4, truly. I think so. That could be all-time highs in Bitcoin, but will that pull up the rest of the market? The history repeats itself, but it doesn’t have to be exact. Rising tide does raise all ships, but it’s not a perfect science because things change.

49:04 Some projects go bankrupt, and their token won’t recover. There’s other incumbents that come on the market. The salon is in layer twos that are really putting pressure on Ethereum, obviously. But I do think that, in general, if Bitcoin’s at an all-time high of 150, 180, 200 by the end of the year, is Ethereum going to be higher than it is right now? Yeah, I think it will, because I think some people will take profits, and they’ll go into something lower down the curve.

49:35 They want to diversify, and they can trickle down further into altcoins. So, yeah, I do think all ships will rise, but it just might not be as pronounced and as extreme as previous cycles. It’s 21, for example. Yeah, I think you might be right there, and there’s so many more projects now. Do you think we’ll see utility projects rewarded at some point? We obviously saw a lot of interest in memes, but there are some really amazing utility projects with real revenues that tokens are trading at subpennies on the dollar, maybe good acquisition things in the future. But do you think that will change? Do you think the market will finally realize that and invest in those? I do. I do. I think projects need capital to have a team to do community management, to do social media, to keep building a product, and all that requires payroll. And if you can generate revenue, then you can be very sustainable, or if you have a good balance sheet, you can be very sustainable. But, yeah, I think cash flow is definitely going to have its day in the sun, because smart investors are going to realize this is undervalued, like this is actually generating capital. They can be sustainable with their cash flow, so they can build more, they can do more engagement, they can do more marketing, and the token is just naturally going to catch up with it and get really appreciated for having something really behind it. And smart money is going to see that. I know some very sophisticated

51:08 Traders and hedge funds that are already making some of those bets and some of those calls. So, yeah, I think cash flow is definitely going to be where investors want to be very, very soon, because there’s more projects now than ever that have true utility and true cash flow that they can put back into the token, or they can hire more team, or spend more on marketing. So, yeah, I definitely think that that’s going to be big coming up. Are meme coins coming back?

51:38 Some blue chips will. Yeah, you know, like they have community, and they’ve got maniac traders that are just going to push it and shout about it. What about new ones? New ones. Do you think we’ll see anything like we saw last six months?

51:54 It’s hard. There will be, because there’ll be people that- It’s a human thing. It’s a human thing. Like someone, you know, has good capital, good connections, all the, you know, they know they’re plugged in, they understand the system, and they can do it, but it’s going to, it takes a lot of capital, and then some flukey, lucky ones will just kind of catch fire. But overall, do you think the market’s a little bit jaded?

52:17 Yeah, there’s some saturation without question, and it’s jaded. So I think, you know, yeah, last year was kind of the meme year. Does that burn a lot of new users? And I know it’s out of control, but does that kind of frustrate you? Because a lot of those new users might have been playing your games.

52:33 It’s like all the founders that are grinding super hard for years, raising capital, doing, you know, weekly calls with their team, hiring, firing. Like it’s exhausting, it’s super painful, and it’s long-term that you’re building these companies. And then some new kid on the block comes very quickly, he spins up a website, he spins up a meme coin, and then they catch up with attention. Like Trump? Yeah, like Trump did send a lot of liquidity out of the salon in that week.

52:57 Yeah, he took a lot of air out of it, and people are like, ah, it’s like, we all want the same thing, but it’s tough to compete, you know. This is very competitive for attention, for capital. But I don’t think it’s all bad, you know, because it brings people in, it makes headlines, and then people are like, oh, you know, I learned from this meme coin about the sector, and then they explore, they go deeper down, they find our company, Rabbitfoot, or they find, you know, this great game, Wilderworld or something.

53:25 So it’s not all bad, because they bring new entrants. No such thing as bad press in the long run. What does Rabbitfoot look like in five years? That’s a question. What do you think you guys have done?

53:39 Also, yeah, what does Jungle Gaming look like as well? Nice. Yeah, we will have multiple brands out there. We will have an extremely world-class tech product. Like our product is going to be world-class.

53:53 It already is built from the ground up from some extremely talented designers, developers, engineers. So we’re going to have a world-class product, and multiple brands in the market, custom games that can be spun up for any brand, you know, within a week. We’ll have more staff, because, you know, that’s a passion of mine, is to create jobs and work really hard to raise capital, generate revenue, and create more jobs. That’s what we want to do. And we’ll be around just a very, very long time, because gaming isn’t going anywhere, casinos aren’t going anywhere, and we’re very sustainable at the moment.

54:33 So, yeah, we’ll be around for sure with more products in the market. You know, you’re going to, I think, put Jungle Gaming on Ape Chain, and you’re working with that. If there’s another founder out there listening, you know, what are some of the other niches that you would say, okay, these are the kind of people that we want to work with, or this is low-hanging fruit for you as a founder. If you’ve got X kind of community with this type of engagement, we can plug in a white label that would just be a no-brainer for you.

55:01 Yeah, like it’s a group that wants to engage their audience, whether you have a token or not, just wants to engage your audience, build brand awareness. We’re really good at community building. We can help you with your go-to-market strategies, and whether it’s our game or your own overall vision, we can help you with that and be one of the pieces of your go-to-market. It can be a brand that is fun. It can be a brand that is kind of bigger, like a layer one, layer two, that just wants to have a casino or a telegram game.

55:35 It can be real money. It can be social. So if you don’t want to have a real money casino, no problem. We can build you something that’s just fun and has quests, you know, just for community adoption and retweets and shares and referrals, just to earn some points to earn your token or just to earn a monthly giveaway prize that we can just have in our tech. So yeah, we’ll build something custom for anyone.

55:59 And yeah, we’ll treat every client very, very well. Those quests are so big. I’ve seen those things done that do amazing audience engagement. And look, I can have a brand new documentary film come out like we did last year. And I was in Austin.

56:14 I was on Alex Jones’ show. We did it. I can email my audience and say, please share this. And I’ll get some. But if I had a game where there was a quest and there were rewards, I mean, we could get crazy action steps from our community.

56:28 And so I’m like, they love us less. But you’re actually, you’re being lazy by not giving them a more reason to engage. You know, it would have helped us a lot. Yeah. And if you really understand your community too, you know, like just what they like, what they want, what they like, what they want, and then like truly, truly knowing it’s not just a, it’s not just a giveaway, but sometimes it’s a giveaway that’s really clever or it’s an NFT or it’s, or it’s something, you know, something else that they just feel like, you know what, that’s cool.

56:56 They put effort. They put time. They did good work to promote this and good design with their announcement. You know, the audience, they’re smart. And so, yeah, you know, we can do anything.

57:10 And, but yeah, it’s a little extra mile that I think the community appreciates. And then they’ll engage that much more with. We should get you to do a game for us and you could play like, you know, Brian Rose in a boxing match like last night. We could have done that this last week, right? Oh my gosh.

57:24 Oh my gosh. Super funny. How are you doing? Yeah, I’m doing good. So people will know I had my first boxing match last night.

57:30 And yeah, it was a crazy experience. I guess I’m still here. I mean, look at you. A little headache. Yeah.

57:35 I realize I’m okay. You did great because you, yeah, you’re in good shape. Yeah, I took a couple shots to the head, but nothing, no marks. I had a lot of Vaseline on my face. But no, it was great.

57:44 And my community really engaged. I mean, it was amazing. Actually, our investment club who actually invested in you guys, they were really all over it in the chats and the telegrams. And then I had a lot of our former guests were professional boxers and MMA fighters. All were supporting me on social and the Gracie’s and the professional boxers and George St. Pierre and Boss and all these people.

58:09 And then of course, all the London realers and then a bunch of people in Dubai that saw me here. But it’s interesting talking to you now, we could have brought it together so much better if we had just thought about how to really put that into one piece and said it was happening on multiple platforms with weird engagement spaces. The prize could have been your boxing gloves or something. Then people would be like, oh, man, that’s so cool. That’s great.

58:33 Right? I know. Or something like that. I know. And I would have like- Just think about what they might want and just build a tech around how to deliver it.

58:40 I’m really going to think about this. And another thing, the organization, I introduced a company that I use here in Dubai called Lifespan that’s just helping me with longevity and things like that. And so they sponsored the event. But it would have been cool maybe if they sponsored the prize that the audience got. And then that would be branding everywhere.

59:01 Who won the Lifespan prize? Who’s got the points? So that creativity is really interesting. And we can do that in Web 3 even better. So yeah, man, maybe you just landed a client.

59:12 Let’s do it. Yeah, let’s do it. And then I guess my last question for you is, what’s it like operating as opposed to being the investor or the equity guy? I mean, I guess you get even more gray hairs. But you made this choice.

59:28 Do you ever regret it? Is it a very different life?

59:34 I still have a portfolio or things that we’ve invested into and advise, which I really enjoy. And I like helping anyway that I can in a small way. But it’s way more grind and way more work. But the reward is that much better. Sometimes we have team calls and big deadlines as a group.

59:58 And then you finally push, work really late. And then everyone’s exhausted. But then you kind of have a good celebration. And I’m visiting our team tomorrow in person in Armenia. So traveling there and our staff of 12, 15 plus, we’ll be meeting, catching up.

1:00:17 And it’s just a big celebration. So those are the things that you can’t replace, that human connection, that energy. So yeah, even though it’s hard work and a grind. But those are the payoffs that make it all worthwhile. And you’re building something that feels good, right?

1:00:33 Yeah, with people. There’s reward in that for sure. The journey, they say. How can people get in touch with you for White Label? How can people start playing some of the games that are coming out with Jungle Gaming, et cetera?

1:00:44 What’s the best way? RabbitFoot.Tech is our website. And they can get in touch with us there, follow our socials, and email us directly. And then, yeah, we’re open for business. Our products are great.

1:00:59 And we can build any of these tools and games for anyone that wants one. Love it. Okay. Fantastic. Super excited, Dave.

1:01:06 And like I said, we are always huge fans of you and your background and your vision. And so we’re kind of all in and looking forward to the next five, ten years for sure. Thanks, Brian. Looking forward to it too. Amazing, man.

1:01:16 Thanks for the talk. Thanks. Appreciate it. And I want to say thank you to Web3 TV. We’ll see you next time.