Alain Robert - Achieving New Heights: Why The French Spiderman Battles With His Fear of Death

Full transcript: Alain Robert on London Real

4:09 This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Alain Robert, the 58-year-old urban climber known as the French Spider-Man. You are one of the world’s most daring free solo climbers, famous for scaling over 165 skyscrapers and famous landmarks all over the world, including the Eiffel Tower, the Empire State Building, the Petronas Twin Towers and the 110-story Willis Tower, formerly known as the Sears Tower, in Chicago. You’ve been arrested over 120 times, and in 2011 you climbed the tallest building in the world, the Burj Khalifa, ascending almost 3,000 feet over six hours, securing your place in the Guinness Book of World Records.

4:47 Alain, welcome to London Real. Well, you said everything, so I gotta go now. That’s it, right? Uh, first, before we get started, I wanted to know what is it like coming to London, because you’ve been coming to this city for many years, I mean, and climbing things in this city with different reactions, right? You came first, I think, in ’95 and did Canary Wharf, and then you came back in, like, oh four and then ’11.

5:13 Tell me, what’s your relationship like with this city, and is it friendly to people like you? Actually, I kind of like London, except the weather, you know, it’s always a nightmare, you know. I never know what, uh, I’m going to find when I’m landing in London, but, uh. Which can affect your climbs in a big way, right? It is, and also because I, I don’t really like, you know, cold weather.

5:33 I don’t like rain. So you know, that’s why actually I moved to Bali. Like this, uh, the weather is really nice, you know, it can be lower than 26 and pretty much every day it’s a sunny day with, like, around 30, 32. So I really enjoy. Okay, but you come to London in the past because it had great structures and it was a fun city and energy, so you like the city?

5:56 Uh, yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I still like it a lot, although, you know, now, now I’m done because, you know, I got two injunctions. Okay, so you have an injunction, which means if you try to climb something in the city, they’re going to put you in jail for five years, is that right? Yeah, they could even put me, regarding my, loyal risk, for up to life sentence in jail. I, I don’t think they would do that, but actually they are entitled, uh, to do it, so it’s kind of, uh, kind of tough.

6:26 And this happened when they found out you were gonna try to climb the Shard, right? Is that when they decided to be proactive with an injunction? Exactly. You know, which at that time I had no idea that just hanging around and the building where I got spotted by the security people and they knew who I was, and I, I never ever thought that just by presuming that maybe you may climb their building that they could do something against me. So that’s why I was not really trying, uh, to be a hidden.

6:59 If not, I guarantee you I was going to wear a cap, I was going to wear normal jeans and, you know, whatever, but definitely not wearing such a snake. You wearing snake skin? Well, that wasn’t snake skin at the time, but that was like kind of a turquoise, uh, leather pants and leather jackets, already very fleshy. Okay, so you’re doing a little recon around the Shard. Yeah, just, you know, like being sure that.

7:24 And then, yes, I saw that actually climbing the Shard was kind of easy because they built it, you know, on each of the corner there is like a big pipes. It’s a bit like a, like, like a tall ladder, so I knew overall, you know, I didn’t care whether it was going to be difficult or not. I knew that although it would be an easy burning, at least as the tallest building in Europe, I wanted to do it right. And a bunch of people have climbed the Shard since then?

7:52 Yeah, there was, there was dudes. Uh, actually, at that time I was supposed to do an ascend for Greenpeace. Okay, Greenpeace. And then I had to wait because I came, it was like, uh, I forgot if it was December or January, but I had to wait until June. So, uh, after, like, few weeks I already got an email, and they were explaining me that they wanted to, they wanted to attack me, and then I, I didn’t know what to do.

8:23 I spoke to my lawyer and he said, look, I’m having a problem because it’s not enough, it will be going to the High Court of Justice and you need also a barrister, and the barrister costs 5,000 pounds. Okay, so the lawyer was my friend, so he said, okay, I’ll do it pro bono. But I was just thinking myself, if I go to court, it means that I have paid 5,000 pounds for a barrister, then the judge is going to find me guilty, he’s going to fear this guy, he doesn’t want the injunction.

8:57 Why? Because he’s going to climb it illegally and obviously. And then in my mind I just thought there is no way that I can fight against him, right? And you never saw anything like this before, where a city or a country was proactive even when you hadn’t committed a crime, you were just walking around looking at the building, but they’d put an injunction because they thought you might climb it. Exactly, yeah, because I never imagined that it was possible to do something, uh, proactive.

9:26 Okay. I thought if you are committing a crime, then you get caught. It is happening, it’s not something that maybe you may do it or you may not do it. It’s a bit like, okay, you are already seeing a guy who has, I don’t know, kill or rob the bank, and then the day is outside, you make an injunction on all the banks, so meaning this guy is not allowed to approach the banks, right? Okay, gotcha.

9:53 So, so you can’t climb while you’re here, but the first time you came here was ’95 and you climbed one of the towers in Canary Wharf. It was the HSBC Tower. Oh no, that was the, can I walk Berlin. There was nothing at all at that time, there was only one, one building out there. Yeah, that was great because the cops were really nice, the people in the building were really nice.

10:12 I remember, you know, when I was at the police station, I spent, like, 20 minutes, I got nice, well, nice food, English food, not nice food, but okay. And you, I didn’t get sick, right? And on that day you tried to climb to the top and it started raining and it was cold. That was later on, you know, I had to do something for one of my sponsors, and then they were kind of insisting because I was already a few days we were waiting in London, they, I guess their expenses was skyrocketing, and, and on that day they were kind of insisting for me to climb.

10:46 Okay, and at least it was not, uh, raining, although the, the, the sky was frightening, so I went there, I was hidden inside the trunk of a car, because on the day before actually some cops, they saw me and then I got kind of headache that I decided that I was going to find another way, and then I, I climbed, and I climbed hiding in the back, in the trunk of a car. Yeah, pulls up, you jump? Yeah, I, I just dashed out of the, the, the car, and then I, I started climbing, and then it just couldn’t do anything.

11:18 And so when you go to climb a building like Canary Wharf or anything else, I mean, for you, you’ve already hopefully planned it out, so you’ve scoped out and done some reconnaissance of the building itself. Do you look at, like, drawings or architecture plans? But I mean, before the internet, how could you know what’s at the top of a building or what you can hold on to? Actually, sometimes I had to go in the seat, like I did in Chicago when I climbed the, the Sears Tower tower.

11:45 I went there four times. Okay, you know, did you go up to the observation deck? Uh, I did it, but, uh, also going, uh, inside the other buildings, checking with, uh, powerful, uh, binoculars and, and just being sure that there was not a mistake, you know, attempting the climb, because I’ve never climbed to die. I’ve always climbed because I just feel like I, I want to feel alive. I, I want to reach the top alive because I am having responsibilities first of all, and also because, uh, I am not a suicidal person.

12:20 I, I fully enjoy life. Okay, so you’re not suicidal. Are you an adrenaline junkie? Well, some people, they are calling it that way, so let’s say that I can feel a lot of things when I am climbing, especially, uh, after the ascent, but maybe if this is, uh, adrenaline, then yes, I am. But I, you know, I couldn’t, I couldn’t tell you exactly what it is.

12:46 I just know that it feels good. Okay, do you feel, I mean, you’re not shaking though, I mean, like, are you, are you kind of in a real Zen state when you’re climbing? Do you feel like it’s an out-of body? Exactly. I’m more like, uh, like, like, you know, like a, like a, like a focused person, you know.

13:02 Okay, not really thinking about anything. Like, I, I am really, uh, into it, you know. I, I know it’s a game, it’s, you know, life and death is very close, it’s a very, uh, thin line. Yes. And, uh, I, I cannot afford to overstep the border, then I, I, I don’t have time, you know, to think about my other problems or, you know, the bills that I just didn’t pay.

13:26 Right. I just give, I just don’t give a damn, s***, about it. I just do my stuff. So that’s a beautiful moment, because in the rest of your life you’ve got problems, you’ve got to know. You’re right, you know that, that, that, that’s the thing, you know.

13:38 We human beings, you know, all along our lives we, we are facing, uh, tons of problems, you know, and then we need to settle all of all of those, uh, issues, but when when you are free soloing, you are really f***ing at peace. Although you may, you may, you, you may die, like, within a, a snap, but you are really, really, uh, into it. You, there is nothing, uh, interfering and it’s just magical. Is that a flow state? Have you heard of this term, the flow state?

14:12 Is that what that is, or you don’t overthink it? Um, I’m also not really knowing about it. Okay, but, but it feels really good, like floating. It’s called flow state, it’s like people are, like, in the zone and you’re out there and you’re focused, but you’re not exhausted. It’s maybe a little adrenaline, but you’re not panicking, meaning.

14:30 Yeah, that’s, that’s the magic of that feeling, is that you are not dead, you are alive, but you are also not really alive, because you, you, you are so close to die and, and I don’t know, it, it’s just amazing, you know. Nowadays our society is a bombarding and, uh, security for these, security for that and putting cameras everywhere, you know. In London all the more, I think it’s most likely, uh, the city in the world which there is the most CCTVs, right?

15:03 Yeah, in London, yes, most cameras everywhere, and there’s safety everywhere, and you think that the rest of the people besides you, our lives are too safe, there’s too boring, there’s no risk. Yeah, because we maybe, our lives look crazy to you, people say you’re crazy, but you think it’s crazy not to take risks. Exactly, you know, our ancestors, they were having a difficult life, they were taking risk on a daily basis, you know, they, they, they had to kill, uh, big animals to, to survive, you know.

15:36 That, that, that, that is the way, uh, the life was a long time ago, but not nowadays. Yes, we found plenty of ways to make our life secured and everything, but overall, you know, it’s boring nowadays, you know. Most of the people, honestly, they are watching adventure seated on the armchair on f***ing TV, and wow, they are watching Indiana Jones or whoever, and then when they off the film, they are going back to their boring life. Do you think that’s why we suffer from so much depression and anxiety, because we’re not taking risks?

16:12 I think so, because, you know, overall I, I built my life, you know, in a certain way, I never want it to work, you know. Why, you know, what, you know, what’s the meaning of working? I, I checked it, I didn’t know, uh, before, it means thought, you’re means taught, your thought, thought you’re, taught here, taught hearing people. Oh, torture. Yeah, who wants to get tortured?

16:38 Nobody. Then when you are working, obviously you are torturing yourself, so I’m only not dead. For me, I don’t want anything to do that. You’re always an adventurer, you always wanted. I, I always, I always felt like, uh, in life, you know, there is those who want to live their dreams and those who are only dreaming their lives, and me, I want you to, to live my dreams.

17:01 Okay, so. And this I got it, like I was, like, uh, like 15. I already knew exactly what I wanted to do with my life. And you grew up in France? I grew up in France.

17:12 What kind of, what kind of childhood, like, when were you in the, in the, in the rural areas, were you in the countryside, were you? I was, I was in the city, and then, uh, I, I became a Boy Scout, and starting to go, you know, a bit outside, discovering the nature, climbing cliffs. And, uh, climbers are a weird bunch of guys, right? I mean, climbers, maybe a b******t. Yeah, I mean, you kind of do your own thing, it’s usually not the most social thing, right?

17:37 You’re up on a rock, and I mean, you kind of tune out of society somewhat, climbers. Yeah, yes, well, maybe yes, a long time ago I was like that, but, you know, now I’m, like, close to 58 and, uh, I am exactly, uh, the opposite, you know. I’m socializing with people. Okay. I, I, you know, I do find, uh, interest in many things.

18:01 I can be just a guy going on the beach six o’clock in the morning in Bali, just, you know, looking at the waves and just, you know, being amazed by, by my surrounding. Finally I can say I am seeing the world the way it is, which when I was young, I was far too focused on climbing and training and on, on being good, doing this, doing that, and then there’s so many things that I didn’t see, and unfortunately for me, as I’m still in a good health, I can still see a lot of things that, um, I didn’t manage to see before. Yeah, all right, I want to go back to Chicago really quick, because I lived in Chicago for two years in the ’90s.

18:40 I don’t know when, when did you climb Sears Tower? In 1999. ’99, okay, I lived there about 1995 and I went up to the top of the Sears Tower deck. First of all, it’s windy in Chicago. Yeah, it’s cold, and the Sears Tower is the scariest building.

18:54 I was at the observation deck, maybe at the 106th floor, 103rd floor. I mean, yeah, it’s a scary building, you know, it’s, it’s massive, and you went to climb it, and you had a point where you said, I’m dead, right? I mean, yeah, well, especially, you know, on that day when I climbed it, uh. First of all, why’d you climb it? Because, because it was there and I had to do it.

19:20 It’s like mountains, you know, there is, I heard it long time ago, and because people, they keep on questioning why, why, why are you climbing, and just because there is a mountain, right? And for me, uh, for me the Sears was like, uh, like a mountain of glass and steel, and it was so obvious that it was an amazing target. Was it the tallest building in the world at the time? At that time it was, it was. Right, okay, and you had done your first building only about four years earlier in ’95.

19:55 Also in Chicago? Or also in Chicago. At that time I saw the Sears and I just thought, s***, this spelling is totally impossible, it’s scary. Actually, I went to the, uh, of the tree deck, I was looking down, although I was used to it, you know, I climbed a lot mountains, you know, with, like, 1,000 meters clips, but you know, a building is different because you’re having a reference point, you can see the scale, because down the road you can see the car and, and, and the car in your mind it means something.

20:31 If, if you are climbing a, a big mountain, you are not seeing such a thing, so at one point you get lost, you don’t know whether you are 500 meters above the ground, 1,000 or 2,000, because you are kind of lost. Okay, but on a burning you are perfectly knowing where you are, because there’s cars on the ground and it’s so straight, you can see all the details. Definitely it is scary. Okay, and I, I, I love that scariness, because I, I just knew that, well, I’m gonna do that right now, you know.

21:05 The morning I was about to do it, I was even crying, because I knew that most likely I was living my last few hours. Wow. I was crying, but I, I was, I have decided, no way, I am not moving backwards, I’ll do it. How do you deal with the emotions, say, 24 hours before? What’s happening?

21:26 Is, are you going up, are you going down? The tears, are they tears of fear, are they tears of joy, like? Yeah, actually it’s like waves, meaning there is moment which you are not doubting about yourselves, and there is moments which you are, like, pretty much down, and then it, it’s kind of difficult. Overall I, I, I have always known that once I am into action, all of that I put it aside. Okay, I am focused and the tiger is fighting, and I make it, I make it, I don’t make it, it’s not such a big issue actually, you know.

22:05 I’ve been living such an amazing life. I have crossed more than four decades free soloing, and, uh, I don’t, I still don’t even know why I’m still alive actually, because I failed few times, you know. Doctors said the year 1982 that, uh, physically talking, I was not going to be able to climb back. Right, you fell in ’82. Yeah, this is 13 years before you climbed a major skyscraper in Chicago.

22:33 Even the cliffs, because a lot of people are not knowing that I did amazing, uh, cliffs free solo, super high difficulties. Yeah, what are they called, like 5.13, 5.30? Indeed, except that, you know, when I became mediatic, the journalist said, we don’t care about cliffs. And now that Alex Honnold, who is my friend, he has climbed El Capitan, yeah, then it’s like, s***, what I did 30 years ago, it’s my f***ing legacy, and, and people, they start talking about even, even Alex, Alex, he said it, you know, I am having transcript.

23:12 He did a very nice, uh, interview for my next documentary, is going to be released end of March, and what he said, he said, what this guy did 30 years ago is mind-blowing, because his margin in between what he could do with a rope and what he did without was nearly the same. He said, look, I climbed Free Rider, but my highest level with a safety was four or five grades above Free Rider. This guy, he was climbing at his utter limit with and without safety.

23:51 So he was giving, he was giving you props by saying you were one of the best original free solo climbers. Yeah, except that the journalists nowadays, they don’t give a damn, because they said, I got hurt when I read some stuff, because I’m, I’m just not only a guy with climbing f***ing burnings. I, I, I did climb cliffs for 20 years on a daily basis free soloing, art stuff, FIFA in A, B, C and D, which nobody has ever climbed that level of difficulties, and then when suddenly I was, like, completely ignored, like people writing, oh, he’s climbing easy bearing, you know, movements are quite repetitive, and f*** you know, first of all, I climbed some very hard buildings, like the Sears, like the from atom in Paris La Defense, like the Blue Cross in, uh, Philadelphia, like the Petronas in Kuala Lumpur.

24:51 So not all of the buildings, first of all they are repetitive, so it’s just like people, they are writing s***, right? They are totally, uh, non-informed and it is really, uh, hurting. Yeah, and look, I had Jimmy Chin in here who, uh, was the director of the movie Free Solo, and, and Alex Honnold has come out and said that he’s, he’s not the most technical climber, you know, he doesn’t do, like, those 5.13Ds free solo, and sounds like you were one of the original free solo guys.

25:21 I mean, because people weren’t doing that free solo stuff way back in the day, right? Yeah, I, I know, I know deep, deep down, and, and that’s why you know, that now of a lot of people they start to understand, because with Instagram, with Facebook, was not so obvious because the people following me, they were, like, uh, you know, kind of normal people, but Instagram, uh, there is a lot of climbers who are following me and they are discovering year 2018, ’19 and ’20 that actually this guy, he did the awesome things, but we just didn’t know about it. Okay, but Alex knows about you and he’s given you this s***, my friend.

26:02 How, how would you, you become friends with Alex Honnold? Did you, we met together in Poland, he’s having one of his, I think his ma’am, she’s from, uh, Poland. Okay, and you met him a long time ago? Oh, like, uh, eight years back. Okay, before he did El Capitan.

26:17 Yeah, but at that time was already, uh, really good, you know, free swallowing, he had a free solo at Half Dome already. Perhaps I, I remembered because it is, I, I got the, I got the Grand Prix for the, my, um, from my life, you know, all the, the things that I have done, and, you know, Poland, they are, they are very, very square, you know, to get that price, it’s kind of amazing. And he saw, Alex, that I could do, I could pull my whole body with the pinky.

26:46 You could? Yeah, when you were younger. Or when I was younger. Okay. And then it was, like, kind of, wow, s***, how you can do that?

26:53 I know, I know, I know, this, this is the thing that he was, like, f*** amazed. He, he saw it, and, uh, he, it just didn’t know that actually it was possible, uh, doing such a thing. Wow, and there was film of you doing that from way back? Yeah, there was a video. All, yeah, that’s from a long time ago, like 30 years back.

27:13 Wow, okay, because a lot of the stuff that you did wasn’t documented because fitness, no, because camera at that time, there was no, uh, internet and no YouTube, no Google, no nothing, you know. Nowadays, whatever you do, when it, whenever you are going to pee, there is somebody filming you. Yeah, yeah, look, I want to get back to the Sears Tower, but, but while we are on Honnold, what did you think of Alex doing the free solo of El Capitan? You must have known he was about to do it before he did it.

27:41 I knew, I knew. You knew about it. What did you think when you heard he was gonna do it, because you’ve, you had your falls in ’82 when you were doing free solos, did you think it was a bad idea, a good idea? Did you think Alex could do it? All my best, uh, performances, I did it after my accident.

27:59 Okay, meaning I, I became, uh, I became really famous end of the ’80s, beginning of the ’90s, meaning I was already highly handicapped. Right, I had my 66 uh, disabled. Right, so your wrists are, or your. Meaning my, my wrist, my nerves, you know, a lot of things, my, I am having problem, you know, vertigo problems with my internal, uh, earrings, uh, on the left side, so meaning, oh, everything that I have done that is really relevant, I did it after my worst account.

28:35 How, how do you have these injuries and do these amazing things? I fell head first 15 meters, actually hands first at the bottom of the cliff, it was rocks, so imagine the impact. Both wrists, they completely smashed up, really destroyed in android pieces, each also my elbows, because my forearms work like, uh, shock breakers, and that most likely this is what saved me, and then after that I burnt my head. I was in a coma and everything, 15 meters. Where were you, in Europe?

29:12 I was at the top, and then where, what built, what, what, what was it? Was it a cliff where, actually, uh, in, uh, in, uh, near Valencia, in the corners. Okay, I’m making very good wine. Okay, in France. Okay, so you fell 15 meters down, you brace yourself, you break your wrists.

29:29 Yeah, everything’s broken, all the bones, and you hit your head as well. I lost 45 of my blood. I was, my right tool was where, really I was about to die, which somehow I didn’t. At one point they were supposed to amputate my, uh, forearm. I, I really did fight very hard to, I knew that doctors, they said that no way I was going to climb back, so okay, just vote, fair enough, keep it for you, and then once I was outside the hospital, I decided that I was going to find my own strategy, and, and the strategy was quite simple, a very small step but every day.

30:10 Okay, so a little bit better every day, and then you climb some of these amazing free solo climbs afterwards. Exactly. That must be mind-boggling for Alex Honnold to know that with limited wrist motion you did some amazing free solo climbs. Okay, you know, there again, what he did by free soloing El Capitan is also mind-blowing. Right, what did you think when you heard he was gonna try it?

30:35 First of all, I wanted to do it year ’94, but at that time there was no such a thing as a Free Rider, you know, you have to understand there was a root, salat, a wall, but at the wall it’s unthinkable, uh, free solo. Okay, because there is two pitches that are totally that they are far too hard and they are totally unsafe. So he tried it a long time, and then one day he found out that actually he could avoid those two, uh, pitches. Right, right, this part of the El Capitan Free Rider, which is that kind of low slope with no handholds, that you have to just kind of hope that your feet stick, because if you slide, kind of, uh, dangerous, right?

31:21 It’s kind of a combination, uh, with, um, you know that, you know, he worked on Free Rider, like, for two years. Wow. So he knew any single, uh, pockets, but okay, today you need to remove the rope and to do it without it’s a different game. Tell me about that mind game when you take the rope off, because that’s where a hundred climbers goes down to one that can actually do it for real with no rope, and that’s why there’s very few free solo climbers. I, I think most likely it is something very, uh, mental.

31:57 It’s like, um, deep down you, you, you are, you are accepting the ultimate death, although this is not what you are looking for, but, uh, somehow you are accepting it, the ultimate death. Yeah, if, if you are not accepting that it may go wrong, you cannot do that. Okay, it’s impossible. All right, so you just accept that that could happen and then you just continue. Yeah, wishing that your, your, your, your physical stamina, your mental stamina, your techno kit technology, technology.

32:35 Yeah, technically I will make it, but deep down you, you also, you cannot put it apart, potentially you are dead. Okay, you know, when I climbed the hardest thing I did in Verdon, you are 250 meters above the ground, it’s 50/50. You are really playing a hard game. Okay, you, you know, I did stuff like you’re 91, uh, the name is not Free Rider, it’s like Me de Lesar. It’s completely nuts, the chances that you, you, you may do it, uh, and you may reach the top alive, they are really, really, really, really slim.

33:16 Okay, so it’s like flipping a coin. Yeah, you can easily die. And you know why I can’t tell you also why I did that, I guess. I, I had to take a revenge, you know, what’s happened to me year 1982. I was a guy, I was young, I was 19 years old, I was promised to a gigantic future.

33:38 I was going to be an amazing climber and suddenly I was a bad guy, and, and deep down I, I couldn’t accept it. I had to do something, and I did fight my own way, you know. Doctors, they were against me, they said you can’t do it, you won’t do it, and I said them, f*** you. And that’s why you took some of those risks? Yeah, later I did it, I did it because I, I felt is so, is so unfair.

34:11 I, I had my whole life, you know, I, I had everything ahead and I messed up. Why were you so good as a climber? Like, what makes you good? Is it genetic? No, because I, you know, I started climbing when I was younger, I, I, I was peeing in my pants, I was afraid of heights.

34:32 I, I had only one thing, you know, actually I, I did start climbing because my, uh, when I was a little boy I dreamt to be, uh, courageous. I was afraid of everything, afraid of everything, even heights. Oh, hi, I was terrified about heights. So you do, my first experience was in my parents’ car, we were going to Leon and my dad, no, we are going to Toulouse, and my dad decided to, to quit the highway and to cut short to the mountains, and I was inside the car and I, I was completely, uh, terrified just to be in a car.

35:10 I just thought that the car was going to fall any time. Okay, and the car was going to be followed by the precipice and I was gonna die. So, you know, imagine, imagine the, the, the gigantic step in between, uh, peeing in the pants in the car and becoming a climber. So I became a climber, quite good, and then year 1982 I destroyed everything. Right, and then you came back from those injuries and then started taking big risks again.

35:39 That was the revenge of my life. Revenge, are you going up there in anger when you’re climbing? Not at all, no, because then you’ll die. No, and I was competing alone, I was with myself, just alone up there. Oh yeah, there was no YouTube, no nothing.

35:52 Well, of course I am having people who did witness the biggest thing I did, so there is pictures or kind of films, but that was not the purpose, because I was pretty much free soloing every day. Okay, and you did it because you had so much potential, you thought it was lost and you thought, ah, I’m not gonna waste this life. Exactly, that was my path, you know. I, I found it when I was, like, eight years old, I saw a movie inspired by a novel written by Arie Troyer, The Grieving Snow.

36:24 It’s a story about an airplane from India who is crashing near the, the top of Mont Blanc, and two brothers, there are guys, talented climbers, and they decide to climb the mountains to six survivors, and then I saw that there was Spencer Tracy at that time, so imagine, it’s like the ’50s, the movie, and wow, I was kind of, uh, you know, mind-boggling by seeing those guys climbing a mountain, and just I thought, wow, I want to become a guy like that. Wow, so that was my dream. Okay, and so you started doing scarier and scarier free solos, things that you said you have 50/50 chance of even surviving.

37:03 Yeah, I just, like, I, I was willing to play the high game. Okay, one thing we saw from Alex Honnold in the movie Free Solo, this is what Jimmy Chin and all of his friends said, is that Alex can manage his emotions maybe too much, where the highest he’ll ever get is a six and the lowest he’ll ever get is a four, and that’s how he’s able to free solo. First of all, do you think that’s true, and second of all, is that the way you climb, where you can manage your emotions?

37:30 It is, there is no other way actually, you cannot play a 50/ 50 games without managing everything, you are managing your emotions, if you are panicking you’re dead. Right, is that something you learned to do or were you born, no, low bandwidth of emotions? Well, because Alex looks like a cyborg in that movie a little bit, his girlfriend’s frustrated with him because he seems like a real even-keeled guy all the time. That doesn’t seem like you. Yeah, Alex, Alex doesn’t wear snakeskin.

38:02 Yeah, definitely. Well, this is a rock and roll star, right? You’re more rock and roll. Nobody, nobody is having one, one badass one word in a funny way. This is, uh, Alex Honnold who gets interviewed by the New Yorker yet 2009 when they were doing this long feature on me.

38:22 Yeah, and he said about me one word, badass. That’s what Alex said about you? Yeah, before he was super famous. Exactly. That’s awesome.

38:30 And I liked it because I, I didn’t even know, because when I read the article I was upset about the writer, I said, what the hell, she’s writing that I’m a badass, because I took it like bad and ass and not knowing actually what was the meaning of being a badass. So, Alain, we’re going to call this show One Word: Badass. Yeah, well, definitely. All right, so Alex gave you props back in 2009, but again, like, do you think you’re the even-keel guy, or only when you climb?

38:59 Oh, well, no more. Well, it, it depends, because you know, I, I am kind of, kind of good, you know, kicking ass of the society. I’m not really afraid of cops. I’m not really afraid, I’m afraid of something, of being bored. Okay, being bored, that’s what scares me.

39:17 That’s it. And you like being a rebel, and we’ll get into that, because some of your climbs involve a little rebelliousness and a little thumbing the thor into authority as well. So let me just finish up with Alex. You heard he was gonna free solo El Capitan, you knew about the new route, were you scared for him, were you scared of him dying, did you know he could do it? No, I knew you could do it, you know, I knew Alex, I knew, you know, what he has done, uh, in the past.

39:42 Well, like a year, even there was quite a long time actually that he was free soloing. I knew that, uh, free soloing El Capitan was kind of safe. I know we are discussing, you know, we, you are not a climber, so it’s kind of difficult maybe to understand that free soloing, uh, this route, this particular route, I wouldn’t say that. If you are telling me, uh, he has free solos Salathe Wall or El Capitan, I would tell you it’s completely nuts. Okay, right.

40:12 So but the free soloing Free Rider was still doable, and especially because he had, he had a lot margin, you know, as I was telling you earlier, when I was free swallowing a 5. 13D, I had no margin, I could do 5.13D with a rope and I could only do 5.30. No, I could only do 5.1D with a rope and I could do 5.D without ropes. Okay, so there was, yeah, no margin there, he had margins. So it’s funny how you say that, because everyone’s flabbergasted when you’re like, El Capitan was safe, but it was safe with the Free Rider piece at the bottom, if he had chosen those other routes it would have been absolutely insane.

40:53 Yeah, that’s an 80% chance of death. Exactly, meaning, yes, he wished that, he wished that he could climb maybe, uh, Salathe Wall or, or the Nose, but he knew that actually it was, it was far too risky. Okay, you know what it was like me, you know, when, when I climbed La Muy de Lesar, or Paul Pot in Vernon, I was, like, at 50/50, but maybe climbing Salathe Wall or the Nose, it would be a 70, you die, 30 you make it, or maybe 80/20. Okay, and all the climbers know that, that it’s that stuff.

41:29 Exactly. Will anyone ever climb those routes you just said free solo? No, never, not for hundreds of years, thousands. Yeah, I know, even, you know, even some of the top, uh, guys who are free soloing, like Alexander Huber, even climb harder than FIFA. Indeed, he did 5.14 in a free solo, but he said the, the, the style of La Mi de Lesar and the way it is so hazardous, it makes it completely nuts.

41:58 Okay, so there’s a weird psychological factor. Exactly, because people, they may think, oh, actually, what makes it difficult, this is the grade, but when you are free soloing, it’s a different thing, it’s the style of the route that you are climbing. Okay, whether it is safe or it is totally, uh, insecure. Okay, and free swallowing language or free soloing Paul Pot is totally insecure. Right, so there’s a difficulty and then there’s a safety, and if the safety is not safe, it gets amplified when you’re free soloing.

42:31 It means, like, you are relying on, uh, adherences with your, with your feet, with the tip of your feet, right, and any, any time if you are losing that little friction, then what your fingers are holding is so tiny that it’s impossible not to fall. Okay, so it’s like you, you are pushing, pushing, pushing, desperately hoping that you shouldn’t lose contact, and then you grab the next pocket and the next one, and then suddenly you’re at the top and you feel like you just reborn. Wow.

43:08 It’s like I have f***ing regained my, my life. Wow, but most climbers can’t handle that kind of psychology and emotion on a regular basis. No, no, that, that would be, that would be nuts, and, and actually most of the climbers, they are not even free soloing, right, because they, they don’t want to take risk. Right, and most likely they are right. Yeah, it’s just a choice, you know, what, what you are doing with your, you know, let me tell you something, most people, they don’t even know climbers, they are knowing, of course, Alex, for example, there is guys like now, like Adam Ondra or Chris Sharma, they have done things with a rope that they are much, much, much harder than what I did or what Alex did.

43:56 Okay, with rope it’s even harder. Okay, but you know, it is requiring, uh, I, I don’t know if this is a strength, so it is requiring something very special. Okay, but you have to be an accomplished climber to understand how impressive those things. That’s why, you know, I guess, do the Olympics, uh, this, uh, summer, if the Coronavirus is not messing up everything, uh, it’s going to bring a new light about exactly what it is about climbing. Okay, because people, they are quite confused, they haven’t really understood that there is so many way of climbing.

44:36 Okay, what did you make of the reception of the film? What did you watch the film and what did you think? No, I just, well, I, I was hoping to, to see it on board of the other plane, but I still no. I watched, like, a few, um, 10 minutes here and there which are really good, I, because the, the way they made it, the, the budget they, they have put on this film, I know this is National Geographic, the, the number of guys who are involved, the number of cameras, guys like Jimmy Chin, you know, they are, they are professional climbers, they are also, uh, professional, uh, filmmakers, so they, they could get an amazing result.

45:17 Me, you know, most of the time when people that are filming me, I am climbing illegally, you’re having the worst angle ever, you are down, you are at the bottom. If you want to get a good result, you need to be at the top, you need to have some crane, you need, you need to have a lot of things, right, and then you get the result. Right, do you think it was dangerous to have everybody filming that climb? You know, Alex knows there’s cameras everywhere, there’s making a movie about a climb, does that put extra pressure on a free soloist?

45:48 Well, Alex said that actually he felt safe, you know. Yeah, he said, I knew any single pockets of the route, and on that day somehow I knew I was not going to fall. Yeah, it was weird to watch, man. So it’s just like, it’s just like, uh, your, your, your state of mind. Yeah, he knew it, but of course for the guys who are looking at it, you know, you know, hanging their body on the road, although they are, they are really good climbers, but it’s just like, uh, they don’t understand, like, a guy who is putting his body on something small or jamming your fingers on a crack, it’s just like kind of, uh, mind-blowing.

46:29 Right, but it’s normal for you guys? Well, I’ve been living like that for, for so long, for me it’s like, it’s not like a routine, because, um, before an ascent I am always afraid, meaning I am aware that there is always this question about life and death, so of course I am deeply concerned, but I, I, this is still, I know I’m not a guy who is moving backwards. Okay, if I set up my mind, no matter, I’ll do it. You’re gonna, that’s why, or you know, there is two things that scares me, myself and, uh, being bored.

47:07 Okay, because, you know, you can kill yourself, I know I’m, because I’m not the guy who’s moving backwards, that’s the problem. Okay, so you always have goals and you always do what you say to yourself you’re gonna do. I know that once my mind is set up for doing something, even though I am failing or I am moving backwards, I know no matter, next day I’ll try again and I’ll do it. Okay, it’s not something that I put it aside and I said it’s done. Okay, I want to get back to the Sears Tower, but I want to finish up with Free Solo, the reception of the movie.

47:38 It won the Academy Award for Best Picture. Uh, now everybody at least knows more about climbing and they understand free solo. Are you surprised there was that reaction? Is this good for the sport? Does it raise awareness?

47:52 Good, good, I’m not saying that it’s good because, um, it’s a complete, uh, different discipline, you know, you cannot encourage people, uh, free soloing. It’s definitely, uh, dangerous, you know, deadly. So, but in a way it’s good because it makes people understand that actually it is possible, free soloing amazing stuff, and I, I, I would say that it is, uh, definitely, uh, inspiring. Yeah. Will anyone ever free solo El Capitan again?

48:28 For me, I’m, it’s, it’s done, you know, I’m, I’m too old, right? I wish I could, you know, I’m, like, nearly 58, so maybe in another life, if I’m like cats and I’m having sevens, but already I’m used few. Yeah, you have, do you think anyone else will, will free solo that in the future, in the next 50 years? Could, could be, but not, not sure, because, you know, you know, when you are free soloing, people, they, they’re not gonna try to climb back Free Rider, they’re gonna try to do another one, right, that may be very similar, maybe harder, but, um, you know, climbing back Free Rider, it’s okay, the game is over, you know, it did it, you know, it’s amazing, it’s maybe one of the greatest, uh, accomplishment at two days, but the next one, because there will be always the next one, there will be, because a hundred years ago nobody would have conceived of free, free soloing El Capitan.

49:28 Exactly. So 100 years from now, will there be super climbers, super athletes, super everything that can free solo some of these very difficult pieces? Me now. Okay, when I’m, when I’m seeing what guys they are doing with a rope, I just imagine if they, they are, they were having my mental or Alex on all mental, they could do much harder than what we did. Okay, okay, so you’re seeing improvements.

49:56 And I’m very sure, it’s like, uh, you know, running, uh, uh, usual and comparing with, uh, I, I forgot the name, but there is always, uh, improvements, although it seems to be so small, because when you are gaining only, only a few split of second, it’s gigantic, but there will be, I’m kind of sure. Okay, now you say with the rope you’re seeing impressive things, and the fact that they have a rope means that there is some safety, but, but, but meaning, yeah, they are not using the rope, meaning they are climbing with their bare hands, right, but in case, in the event it turns wrong, right, there is a rope and then the the, they’re not, they’re not going to fall at the bottom, so they’re not going to die, right? And the quality of those climbers you’re super impressed with?

50:50 Yeah, because, you know, for me, for me it’s even, it’s complicated to understand, first of all, it’s complicated to understand how I could do what I did, my, my, my hands, my wrist, the piece of s***, really, some of the best surgeons specialize on hands, they wouldn’t, they don’t understand how is it possible to do what I did, because it’s completely, it should be impossible. So I just imagine that if I had normal hands, like normal guys, so maybe I was not going to find that motivation that, you know, to fight, to feel maybe revengeful. So that, that is possible, maybe I became good because I was, I, I was so destroyed, right, I was so f***ing upset, right?

51:45 Yeah, so I, I will, I will never know, I’m just explaining you, you know, from the bottom of my heart, I, I, I have tried, you know, I’ve tried for years and years to understand, exploring myself, uh, introspecting myself, trying to understand exactly why, why I did that, I did that. I’m still not maybe the, the best answer that I could tell you, it’s like, I was promised to, to a great future and I messed up, I was 19, I was dead, and then I, I didn’t accept it. Right, and so you pushed on anyways and made it happen anyways, and we’ve seen this throughout history where people get an injury and the doctors say there’s no way you can ever do this and they become the best in that thing.

52:34 So it’s the human mind, I guess so. Okay, yeah, finally I’m just duplicating what a lot of people did in different disciplines. Okay, now climbing buildings, tell us how that came about, because you never planned, I think, on becoming the guy that climbed buildings. No, no, nobody was climbing buildings. This is before the internet, really.

52:53 I mean, you know, your stuff went viral before the internet. I mean, I had heard about you back in the ’90s, you know, you were this dude and I knew about you because I kept hearing all these things you did. How did this first start? Actually, it’s a demand, you know. I got this guy from Sectors doing watches, and all of their teams, they were like athletes, some they were climbing in Malaya, some they were scuba diving, this and that, and they knew I was really famous free soloing rocks, and they asked me if I could be, uh, interested in climbing buildings.

53:30 So I, at first I found it completely crazy, and they said, okay, we’re gonna, we’re gonna go to U.S., you know, we are paying you a 10 days trip there, we’re gonna go to Chicago, New York, Dallas and Houston, and then let’s see, you know, what is your feeling, uh, when you’re gonna see some buildings and if somehow there is something doable or not, and then, uh, I, I have started to realize that actually there was a potential, not, not really big potential, because first of all I, I had to climb one and to feel it, and, and also at the beginning they said it will be something, uh, official. We’re gonna get, uh, approvals, we will be using ropes and, uh, everything is going to be secured. So I just took it like a kind of a new different, uh, adventure, but not really, uh, as something that I, I wanted to do.

54:29 Also they were paying me, that was not too bad, at that time I was broke. So there’s no money again, there was a lot of things that actually, uh, it was still, uh, appealing. Okay, and you’re supposed to get permission and then they wouldn’t give you the permission and you thought, I’m just gonna climb it anyway? It took two months actually, which, uh, the, the those people, they paid some, um, uh, how they’re calling it, uh, I forgot, that there are guys, they are scouting, so they are, like, discussing with big companies and they try to get approvals, but after two months they didn’t get any approvals, so they got the idea, because since I already put a lot money on it, to, to ask to some lawyers actually what could be the outcome if I was doing it illegally, and at that time, because we are talking about 26 years back, the outcome was not that bad, like maybe like, uh, like two days in jail, maybe like a week, and then that would be, uh, enough.

55:26 Okay, so they convinced you to go, and, uh, they would play teeth, like, okay, you like taking the risk? Yeah, because, you know, when I was really young, actually as a little boy, I dreamed to be Zorro, Robin Hood, and young, so I, I was kind of rebellious, right? I wasn’t, my mind was, you like breaking rules? Yeah, exactly, so it was, like, well, f***, it, it is, uh, even more interesting, more appealing, you know, I feel like I need to do that. It’s more fun, more of a rush, more, more everything, more everything, although on the eve of my first ascent in Chicago I, I felt really dead, really.

56:07 I, I just, you know, I was thinking, you know, about the potential, like, consequences, like falling from the building, like maybe being shot by the cops. I just didn’t know, I had no, I overall, you know, I was in the city of Al Capone and I was just, I, I had plenty of thought on my mind and then I, I, I sometimes, yeah, I freaked up a bit. Yeah, you never know with those crazy Americans, they might shoot you down, you don’t know, they could do that actually.

56:38 Yeah. Did you see that documentary about the Frenchman that did the tightrope walk across the wall? I loved it. What’s with you crazy French guys? Oh well, I, I don’t think there is a gene, it’s just like, okay, there is, like, few guys just like that, and, okay, but, like, did you know his story before you saw that movie?

56:57 I, I saw actually the, the, the documentary, but the guy. Okay, Man on Wire. Yeah, and then I saw the, the walk. Okay, did you know of him before though, back when you and I, I, I heard about the guy, but I, I never met a guy personally. Okay, all right, so you climbed that first building in Chicago, what was the experience like for you?

57:18 Do you remember what you thought? You know, was it easy, was it hard, did you get arrested, because this kicked off your career. I was like, first of all, I was dehydrated, because it was a sunny day, I think it was today, there was the, the final of the World Cup in Los Angeles. Okay, all right. In July, I forget the day, but, and I, I, I just remember that I was, you know, I, I needed to drink, you know, I was really suffering hard.

57:48 I remember the, the so much noises, the cops, the firemen, guys shouting down the road, encouraging me, and, uh, and, and when I reached the top I just remember that it felt f***ing good, the handcuff, the heck, I was alive, you know. I was, like, I did it, man. And, uh, and they arrested you? That, that was, like, that was not the greatest day in my life, but one of the greatest day, because I, I was alive. And it was the first time anyone had done a free solo a building?

58:21 Yeah. And I was, I remembered also later on I was in jail and I felt so happy, the guys were taking my, uh, my, the pictures, profile, face, they put me a number, and, uh, and I was happy with the, light was in jail, singing. Were they nice to you in jail? They were quite cool, yeah, yeah, Chicago guys. How many stories was that first building?

58:44 48. 48. Okay, so that kicked it off. They let you out of jail a couple of years later? Yeah, and then I, and then I, I finished the movie, meaning I had to climb, like, three or four buildings.

58:56 Okay, and then that, that was supposed to be the end, but I’ve understood that actually, wow, I can, I can, I loved it, you know, I can get a very nice life just traveling, kicking ass of the society, climbing, you know, I, I loved it. Perfect, right? Perfect. And now you got all these people watching, because when you’re on a rock in the French Alps, there’s one person. Meaning, you cannot say that, uh, actually I was free soloing to get seen.

59:25 Wrong, I was free soloing because I loved free soloing. Okay, and then suddenly, yes, I was exposed in the whole world and then I was seeing, but I climbed 5.13D, just, if you don’t care, you, you climb rock, there is, there is pockets, you climb f***ing buildings, there is nothing. I understand, in fact they’re completely wrong, but what can I do, right? So the world knows you for climbing buildings, but they don’t know what you did with free soloing rocks is so much more complicated.

59:56 That was much more amazing, but, you know, seriously, meaning my legacy, this is what I did, the end of the ’80s, beginning of the ’90s. Well, of course a couple of buildings, they were really, really hard, really hard, I nearly, I didn’t make it, but, but I think more that actually my legacy is more into what I did, uh, doing rock climbing. Right, and real climbers do respect you for that, guys like Alex. Those are annoying because they need to, to be all the guys who are 16, 17, they don’t even know anything about me.

1:00:29 Right, but, you know, there’s this crazy guy coming beyond, that’s it. They’ll listen to Alex Honnold though, so if Alex says good things, yeah, they’ll listen to him. All right, so, and what’s different about climbing a building versus climbing a rock? What did you first notice? Let’s say that most of the time it would be more repetitive, but sometimes that, that, that can, that can be a, a trap, because focus, in some of the buildings you, you there is no way, uh, to have a rest, so it means that step by step it’s like your body, uh, it’s like a tank and the gas is getting lower and lower and lower until, if there is no more gas, your arms are opening and you’re dead.

1:01:15 Okay, so it’s repetitive, but it means you can’t stop and you have to keep going, which means 20 floors of that lactic acid in your muscles. Exactly, you, you may be completely, uh, you can’t go any further. It’s like if you are doing push-ups, for example, or pull-ups, you may do, you may be able to do 50 but you can’t do a 51. Right, and to climb that building, unfortunately, you need 51. Right, but your utter limit is 50.

1:01:42 Right, and whereas in a, in a natural setting you can maybe use some other muscles and use your legs and use this, but now, so when the tank is empty, right, it’s, it’s done. Okay, okay, game is over. All right, let’s get back to Chicago, Sears Tower again. It’s a scary building to me, I honestly also, I don’t see anything to hold on to up there. You nearly died on the Sears Tower?

1:02:03 Yeah, because unfortunately I didn’t know that, uh, actually, um, all the AC machines, they are located near the top. Okay, and, and there was, like, uh, there was like some moisture on the building which I didn’t, I couldn’t see, so it took me by surprise. So I, I, I nearly fell because I didn’t, I managed to, uh, to hold on, you know, to, to give my, uh, my maximum not to fall, and then finishing the last 80 meters of the building really, uh, struggling, uh, hard.

1:02:42 What do you do when you’re up there and you think, I’m dead, or I’m f***, like, how do you keep it in control? Because Alex had a similar experience, I think, on Half Dome when he free solo’d that, you know, eight years ago, where he got part way up and he felt, he felt similar, he’s like, I don’t feel comfortable here, and he had to really stay focused to get out of there, and I know he spent years thinking about that experience before he went after El Capitan. You fight to stay alive, that, that’s the only thing.

1:03:13 So the only thing that keeps you hanging on the surface is that you don’t want to die. Okay, you just don’t want to f*** die, and you’re gonna give your everything to stay alive, and then yes, when you are reaching the top, it really feels like you reborn. But if you think, I’m going to die, I mean, how do you keep your adrenaline from spiking and panicking, because then you’re still there a minute later and you still have to do that? I, I guess that’s training, years of experiencing that kind of situation, you are kind of, your body is trained, your mind is trained, your mind is not giving up, you are not, you are not surrendering.

1:03:54 You surrender up because you fall, but as long as you can, you are kicking your ass to stay alive. Right, so that’s where all your free solo experience comes into play? Yeah. Because if you hadn’t done that, you probably wouldn’t have made it. No, no, definite, definitely, it’s a long, long process actually.

1:04:12 Okay, it takes, no, no, nobody knows that, uh, for like almost 10 years I was free soloing on a daily basis, 5.12C, 5.12D, 5.13A, every day that, that, that was what I was doing every day, whatever was the weather conditions, whether it was raining, whether it was minus 5 degrees, when I was sick with 39 degrees I was climbing, I was taking my f***ing revenge. What I thought I was dead, year 1982, I had to show to myself that I was capable to do something with my life. Yeah.

1:04:53 What do your family say when they see you taking these risks? How do you. Well, my, my wife, she always thought that actually this is his passion, meaning I cannot change, uh, his mind, you know, this is who he is, this guy, you know, he needs that to stay alive. You know, I’m not planning to change the guy as he’s also not planning to change me, and my new wife, she’s also thinking the same way, you know, she freaks up, you know, whenever I’m leaving, she doesn’t know whether I’d be back, but she knows that’s you, so she just deals with it.

1:05:34 Yeah, she knows that I am having those capacities to succeed. Uh, I’m doing things, you know, you know, nowadays, yes, I’m nearly 58, it’s not as hard as what I was doing long time ago, so let’s say I’m having more margin. But right, but you’re still free. So I’m still free following, meaning, which is very unusual at that age, and, and it’s quite funny, you know, I’m just hoping that I can stay alive a bit more and, like, when I am 60 and 60 over, that I can still do that kind of stuff.

1:06:06 Are you going to retire ever? Well, at least it depends, if being retired means you are lying on a bed with a cancer, then I don’t f*** don’t want to be retired. I, I, I hope I can live, you know, like 10, 15, 20 years more, but climbing, still climbing, because this is what I love. Okay, but intelligent climbs. It is definitely, you know, not like doing crazy stuff.

1:06:31 You wouldn’t climb the Sears Tower again, would you? No, I, I don’t, I don’t even have the stamina to do that again. Okay, how long did that take you, hours? I know, like, it took 90 minutes really, but it was fast, quite fast. And that’s fast.

1:06:44 And now, you know, they put some cage, okay, transparent, then, uh, for those who want to get the thrill of what I felt when I was climbing, they can have it. Oh, they can go out on the kitchen, because they go on the cage and they can look down and, and it’s f***ing scary. Most likely it’s not the same thing. Well, except that for them it’s just like you’re, like, like, like, uh, like a cheap thrill. Right, Alain, how can the rest of us get more risk in our life?

1:07:10 You know, I mean, you say that people think you’re crazy, but you think the rest of us are crazy because we live these too comfortable lives. How can we get more risk in our life without dying? Because the, the problem, and I’m seeing it amongst the people, my family actually, my kids, I know that they are willing because they want to get a job that they cannot be fired, so they are sacrificing their whole life to keep that job because they know that they will get some income, they cannot get fired, if they want they can make a loan, the bank is going to accept it, but the job itself is f***ing boring.

1:07:56 Right, so we’re too safe. They are, meaning they are willing to waste most of their life doing something that they don’t like out of making money. So the world is so risk-averse these days, right? We do everything in our lives to avoid risk, which, you means, at the end of the day, means we have these potentially boring and unfulfilling lives that doesn’t make us even feel good, because we, we all love risk. We are watching TVs, we are watching Bruce Willis, we are watching Tom Cruise and we love it, so we, everybody loves it, actually.

1:08:35 Most people, they don’t have the guts, that’s it. Yeah, but everybody loves it, you know. They have these playgrounds for kids now in England where everything is soft so nobody can get injured on the play. Is this bad? Well, let’s say, I guess for the parents is good, for the kids, yes, because it is not reflecting the reality.

1:08:58 When you are falling on the ground, it’s f***ing painful. When you are falling in that kind of play field, you don’t feel anything, so it’s kind of tricky as well. I know that school and everything, they don’t want to feel responsible for any, uh, injuries they may be, they may get sued by lawyers, this and that, so, you know, most of the people, they are trying to avoid the problems. Yeah, but is it the right way? Question mark.

1:09:30 Okay, I want to ask about a couple more year climbs. Petronas Tower took you 12 years until you finally got to the top of that thing. This is in Kuala Lumpur, three attempts. Tell me about why is that such an important building to you and why was it so difficult to summon, do you call it summit in a building? What do you call it when you climb a building summit?

1:09:51 It, sorry, what do you call it when you finally get to the top of a building? Oh, just f*** man, you know, I was at the top and that was the only thing that I could tell to myself, it’s like, f*** man, you did it. Right, why was it so hard? Well, it was so hard because, why is that building important? I don’t know, like, I, I kind of fell in love for that building and then I had to do it, uh.

1:10:16 Is that the way it is with you? You see something and you just, I gotta, gotta do it? Yeah, I just thought that I, I am even willing to go to jail for a long time, but I, I want to, I want to stand at the top of the building. Okay, but the jails in Southeast Asia are no joke. It’s really bad, actually, it’s dirty and there’s a lot of cartridges, mosquitoes, uh, all the s*** you can get it there, you know.

1:10:42 Right, it’s quite bad, the dangerous jails. Yeah, yeah. All right, and even guys, you know, they can do stuff on you that are not very funny. Yeah, the Triads and all that game. Yeah, no, then that, that was of course, uh, the, the first, actually what makes this building complicated, it’s, uh, there is a platform running all around the building on the 60th story, 72, 80, 84, 88, so I actually, I had to climb at night, at least passing the 60th and being, uh, unnoticed by the security of the building, because before they had noticed you and they’d stopped you at that.

1:11:24 They are waiting for you on the 16th and that where the, um, the connecting, because it’s two towers, that this is the, the bridge, bridge, but, uh, the, the bridge is only on the 43 okay, floor, the, the first, uh, cylindrical platform is on the 60th. Okay, so you have to get past that before they see that you’re there, otherwise they’ll literally grab you. Exactly, yeah, there is like 20 guys waiting for you, guys, cops, security people, emergency, uh, firefighter, you know, then it’s just impossible to escape.

1:12:00 And they don’t like you climbing that building, not at all? No, because some places don’t mind, they wouldn’t care, but, uh, in Malaysia it’s kind of, uh, anti-government, makes the government look weak. I, I don’t think it’s a real, uh, democracy, or at least it’s an Asian democracy, right? Okay, so they, so they had the first time? Yeah, I get arrested on the 60th and then, uh, I, I went, I went to jail, I got kind of a bad treatment until, um, a good friend of the King of Malaysia came there and, and then I got released.

1:12:40 Okay, after a few days, uh, I had, I had the dinner with the King and the Queen of Malaysia and all of those guys. I, I thought that actually the monarchy was powerful, but not enough, they couldn’t get me, uh, the approval to climb the building in the building. All right, so you go from climbing the side of a building, security grabs you, they throw you in jail, and then two days later you’re having dinner with the King and the Queen in Malaysia? Yeah. And this happens to you a lot, right?

1:13:08 In my life it’s interesting, because I met a lot of politicians. Okay, even Tony Blair. Yeah, he’s a cool guy. After I climbed the, the, the, the day after I climbed, um, the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, uh, he was trying to understand, uh, how I did it, and, uh, you know, it was genuinely, uh, interesting. Right, of course those guys think what you do is amazing.

1:13:33 And I find it, he’s a cool guy, you know. I know a lot of people, they don’t like Tony Blair because of 2003 and the war on Iraq, but well, that’s not my, I’m not really, not me, the guy I met at least was a guy very, uh, sympathetic. Okay. and you guys, what did he ask you about? What did Tony ask you?

1:13:52 Well, I could do that, why I’m doing this and that, and, uh, and it was always a smiley, you know, not mocking but really a smiling guy, you know, he’s, uh, interesting to understand you. Okay, and that was when you did the Burj in 2011? Yeah, in Dubai. We got to talk about that at some point as well. That was the biggest climb that you did, right?

1:14:13 Yeah, because a long, long one, and it’s, uh, actually, uh, it was approved by Sheikh Mohammed Al Maktoum, who is the Prime Minister. Okay, he came even to see me climbing, you know, he was, he was with his son, the Crown Prince. There was also a Sheikh Nayan, who is the Education Minister, and they were, like, with binoculars looking at me climbing, and quite awesome, you know, because if you know, uh, Sheikh Muhammad, he’s kind of a guy not really, uh, the smiley type of guy, right?

1:14:46 And the fact that this guy, he came, you know, seeing me climbing, it’s kind of perplexing. Right, well, because what you do transcends culture, right? It transcends language, because people see a guy 3,000 feet up in the air, I mean, it brings something, you know, like different from, you know, the usual society things. Yeah. What was different about climbing the Burj?

1:15:12 What did you have to prepare differently? You’re in the desert, were there more people watching, it’s super high, the wind issues? Yeah, well, a bit of everything. First of all, it was cold. Okay, especially, you know, because I finished it, it was midnight, and you are far, far above any other buildings that you can really see that you are really in the desert.

1:15:35 You are no longer in a city, you are, there is a needle and there is a desert all around you, there is no city. Is it peaceful up there? This is gravity. It is, it is, like, I was, I was tired, you know, I, I was just thinking, uh, okay, next step, next step, next step, and, uh, that was kind of, uh, tiring. Uh, six hours?

1:15:58 Six hours, yes. And I was, this girl, you know, from the Guinness World of Rockets, she was kind of following me, you know, and because there is dues, uh, technical, uh, stories, but until, like, Africa, truth is just gave up. Okay, so she was following you at first and then she said first. Yeah, let’s see, half of the building she was, like, you know, using the, the elevator and then, uh, just like monitoring, because she, I guess, she hasn’t understood that this building is gigantic, and then I obviously, I, I was climbing, so if there is photos, films, I, I am at the top, so there is nothing to discuss about.

1:16:39 And what’s going through your head when you’re at midnight, you know, a kilometer up in the sky, surrounded by nothingness? Yeah. Are you thinking, like, what am I doing? Are you thinking, this is amazing? Are you thinking, I just want to get.

1:16:53 It’s a bit of everything, it’s like, it’s amazing, you’re also struggling, you’re tired, you are, like, you feel like you wish to be inside, like, uh, sipping a hot drink, maybe a champagne as well, and, uh, or maybe around Dead Man’s Fingers. Yeah, what’s the Dead Man Fingers, Batman Fingers? Actually, they are brilliant. Okay, this is something you wear on the back of your shirt? Yeah, because Dead Man Fingers, they, they, they are the one, you know, they are sponsoring me.

1:17:24 Okay, and they are cool guys, they’re a rum brand that, their way, their way of thinking is, uh, is far different than most of the people who did sponsor me in the, in the, in the past. So I’m, I’m really, really sitting with the brand. Okay, and the bra, although they, they are working on, on a run with champagne, because, uh, they know that I drink champagne, right? So they, they need to mix it. Okay, so they make rum, and it’s called Dead Man’s Fingers.

1:17:52 Yeah, well, the, the name is quite provocative, but actually if you look at it it is fitting very well, because my fingers, this is what is holding me, uh, alive, so I can be dead, so. They made the rum after you, the brand is called after you, Dead Man’s? I don’t know, maybe they got inspired, uh, you know, the CEO actually, he is, he’s one of my big fans. No, I am one of his big fans. Okay, and, uh, yeah, Stewart, he told me, you know, like two months ago, two months ago we met, we spoke and he said, I really, really love what you are doing and I am really, uh, admiring you, and I, I didn’t even know, I, I, for me, you know, like a CEO is like a businessman, most likely doesn’t care, and actually he’s a very human, uh, person.

1:18:47 Right. I got, I, you know, I got really touched, because, uh, usually, you know, CEOs, they are like kind of boring guys thinking money, making money, and then, and then, you know, he’s having a lot of respect for what I’m doing and, uh, I really love the guy. Do you ever get superstitious that you’re wearing a shirt that says Dead Man’s Fingers? Oh no, I don’t care about it, you know, so many times I, I have signed people, uh, for ditch, discharging them just before the ascend, meaning, I remembered because I was in Caracas, it was a live event, it was official, and on stage they built a stage in front of the building, the lawyer came, the TV host, and they read that, uh, I was going to undertake they sent free solo and I was responsible for my own death and damaging the building, and I had to sign that two minutes before I start to climb.

1:19:46 So at first I, I found it, s***, man, those people that are completely, uh, they have no heart, right? And then now I’m laughing at it, I just think, f***, I’m not gonna f***ing die, and if I die, it’s okay, it’s my game, it’s my own, it’s my own life. What’s the closest call you’ve had on a building? I, I got plenty, but I managed, so it’s just like, it’s also part of my life, you know, you get close call when you’re driving a car. Yeah, I’ve have been, two or three, two years back, uh, I, I pulled off the, the tree, my speed was fast, I missed the curb and I didn’t put my belt, and, uh, I was alive, so, you know, the close call I got plenty, I not.

1:20:45 With available only few millimeters, this is interesting, and, and, and yes, it’s, it’s kind of a reminder that, uh, how amazing, uh, uh, our human body works, meaning our fingers, but our mind. Yeah, it’s like you are literally putting your life into only a few millimeters, and, and it makes it interesting, because then you are looking at you more, uh, deep inside you as a human being, how on earth we can do that, what makes us doing this kind of things which for most of the people it is completely, uh, crazy, insane, you know. I climbed a month ago in Paris, I was actually supporting the movement on, on retirement, because now the government wants people to work more and so on and so on, so of course I am also a bit, uh, implicated, because it means that for me I’ll get retired when I’m 67, maybe 70, I was calculating actually the other day, so it means that to make a living, to make a decent living, I need to climb until I’m 70.

1:22:06 I’m fine because I love climbing, so if I’m having a good health, why not climbing even after, after I’m even 70, but. But you’re supporting the protesters, the Yellow Vests movement? Not the Yellow Vest actually, uh, dudes on the retirement, for the retirement. Yeah, okay, pension. Yeah.

1:22:23 And so you climbed the building to kind of help, help them, support them. And on that day was, was really, really cold, and then I, I just, I was very spontaneous, you know, I, um, before it I was in the UK, I flew back to Paris and following there I was climbing the, the building. How do you climb in the cold? It seems like the worst thing to do. I just didn’t feel my fingers, I, sometimes I, I was knocking a on the windows, I was really trying, you know, to, to warm up my body, and, uh, I had climbed, like, 80% of the building, and I was, a friend of mine, he’s a cop, and he asked me if I wanted to cross on the right, and he said, okay, what you did already for today, it’s enough, you know.

1:23:12 And I said, look, I, I need, you know, the end for me is at the top, I cannot give up now. And it started, it started to rain, and, uh, and I said, my friend, his name is Jackie, I said, I need to hurry up, because, you know, I, I am only having a few minutes to finish it, because after, you know, I’m dead, because once the building is completely wet, I’m done. If it’s. You’re just going to slip. Yeah.

1:23:40 And then you’re, it’s over. Okay, you know, you talked about holding yourself up by your fingers and how, I mean, I guess it’s a way where you just really realize how precious your life is and how amazing your life is, you know, and there’s people that they get their legs blown off in Afghanistan and they call that their alive moment, when they finally realize what their life was worth, and sometimes they say that was the greatest moment of their life because they stopped living in this, you know, in this zombie state where I go to work and I go home and, uh, nothing. That, that, that’s why many, I, I am quite curious to know the percentage, but I think it’s very high.

1:24:19 Most of the people, they, they are not living a nice life, you know. There is this, uh, franchise, I discovered it in Singapore, TGIF, Thanks God It’s Friday. It means everything, it means that for the normal people life starts on Friday when they finish their job, because remember, job equal taught here. So the concept of Thank God It’s Friday is against everything you stand for. Exactly.

1:24:49 I, I hate it. For me, Friday, it’s every day, right? Okay, very well said. All right, let’s finish up with Petronas. So you try, you climbed it the first time, you got thrown in jail, you have dinner with the King of Malaysia, not so bad.

1:25:02 Second time you climb it, what happened? I, I got the same problems, meaning I get caught on the 60th for the same, for the second time, that was Tower Two instead of Tower One. Okay, they put me in jail for two days and then, uh, I got released, and after that I just thought, well, it’s over, you know, I, I didn’t get lucky because, oh yes, for three days I wanted to do it early morning, meaning when it’s still in the darkness, but it was heavily raining, and the guy who was asking me to climb the building, he had his two sons in Kuala Lumpur and they were skipping school, and it was their birthday present seeing me climbing the Petronas.

1:25:48 So on the third days, my friend Lane, he said, Allah, it’s okay, even though you’re only climbing a 60 story, still, you know, the kids, they are really, they are waiting for so long seeing you climbing, so I just decided to, to do it, so I gave up on my dream just to please those two kids. Okay, and, and then, uh, three years later, it was 2007, two years later, I, I just thought, f***, I cannot, you know, I cannot leave it, you know, I cannot give up on my dream. I, I, I still need to, to do an another try because I, I want to make it, and then this time promising myself, no matter if, like, if I cannot start the night time, I just don’t do it.

1:26:48 Then I am, I, I called my friend, a lawyer, and I said, uh, look, the arena, I this time I need to get, if you know, if you are knowing one of the best criminal lawyer in Kuala Lumpur, because I need this kind of guy this time to, to help me, so. He said, Valen, you are completely crazy, you know, you get already arrested two times, honestly you, you cannot try, uh, one more time, you get, you’re gonna be in a big, big, big f***. So he came back to me and he said, okay, I signed up a guy, he’s willing to help you, uh, pro bono.

1:27:23 So I, I then I decided, okay, then I’ll do it. I, I flew to Kuala Lumpur, so everything was organized because I was doing a documentary film and that, that was going to be, uh, the, the last, uh, the last ascent for this film, and when I met the lawyer, actually there was a misunderstanding, he thought it would be my second attempt, and then when I told him, uh, it will be my final time, first of all, you want it to move backwards, which actually I said, uh, it was not, he was going to help me, but he said, uh, Alain, you know, I’m just afraid for you because you’re gonna land in jail for five years. And then because it was during the Ramadan period, uh, it was, it was a Malagai but Indian Malay, so he flew to India, so disappeared for five days.

1:28:23 Then I, um, after that, uh, meeting I went back to the hotel and then I, I, I called the UK and Los Angeles to tell them that actually I’m not gonna climb, but they said it’s too late, all of the crews, they are on board, and I said okay to myself, let’s see tomorrow how it works when they’re arriving. I’m gonna tell them, look, actually, um, I cannot make it, maybe you can, we can still do, you know, the, the preparation and everything, like if I was going to do it, but, uh, I’m not going to do it. And, you know, after five days I started to change my mind and to think, well, maybe overall this lawyer, he told me a s*** and actually he’s just climbing a f***ing bearing, they’re not gonna put me in jail for a bearing, he’s not, I’m not gonna kill anybody, I’m not gonna rape, I’m not gonna, climbing a building, you know.

1:29:21 And then I, I, I decided, it’s okay, I’m gonna do it, I just set up my mind right now, this time I do it. Okay, so you started super early while it was dark? It was like, uh, was still like, uh, dawn, like, I, I forgot, like, maybe 6:45 or. Okay, I was in a complete darkness, the only thing was the first 12 meters, I, I realized because I, I have checked everything days and days, and then there was a, was always, always light, so I just thought if I get spotted when I’m climbing do the 12 meters, I am done, but, and I knew also all the cameras, all the blind spots, everything, I did study everything.

1:30:09 So when I went there in the morning, yeah, I was kind of, uh, sometimes when I’m watching the, the film, it’s, I forgot the name, it’s the The Human Spider Returns, that was Channel Four, and, uh, I, I can see, because they, they took those images, uh, not, uh, after but before, and I can see that I, I am nervous. Oh, you are nervous? Yeah, they are using, uh, infrared cameras, and I, I am nervous only until the moment I am touching the building. Okay, once I touch the building I am shifting into a different mode.

1:30:48 Wow. I am on a fighting mode. Okay, but it must not feel good before. Before, it’s scary, fortunately I know my body, I know my mind, I know myself, so I know that actually, uh, once I am into it, it’s okay, I, I will be, I will be doing it, I will be fighting all the way until I fall or until I make it, but at least I am a fighter. And I really love, I really love this, uh, fighting mode, it’s a, hey, this is what keeps me alive.

1:31:20 See, this is what makes me, um, enjoying so much, you know what, I, I have been living over the last 44 years and what I’m still living and what I will be leaving on next Tuesday. Right, that makes total sense. And how was the climb itself, because when you got to the top there was these big spheres? Yeah, I mean, I, I encountered problems, like on the 87 story, uh, this, um, observatory, uh, level, which, uh, I didn’t even know there was one, which, uh, the, the, the 87 story is the double height, and, uh, that, that was very complex, fortunately I am not such a bad climber so I made it.

1:32:04 I knew that once I was starting to climb this, uh, 87 story there was no way for me, uh, to, to, to go down, right, so that was like, okay, I, I didn’t feel it, you know, I was really fighting, I did it, and then I reached finally the last platform on the 8087 story, and then I, of course, knock up nobody, then I was thinking maybe I should try, you know, to climb above, there is dues, uh, following 10 meters that looks doable. So I found a way and made it, thinking that now I’m sure there is those big gigantic balls with, uh, very, uh, overhanging, and then I was thinking, this is it, after I need to climb down to the 88th story and waiting for the cup, but then when I was there I was just thinking, I need to try, you know, and that was complicated and I, I tried it, then I kept on my mind, uh, if I, I am passing it, I need also to do it on the way down, so that was a bit, uh, I had a lot of question on my mind, but still I was moving forward.

1:33:21 Then after what, after that there was the still mast, quite easy but, like, about 60 meters, so I made it, and then there was another ball at the top, like overhanging maybe two meters, and then I, I tried it one time, I quickly came back to the base and then I, I just couldn’t make it, I tried few times, and then I thought, fact, it’s like there is two meters missing and, don’t tell me that you, you’re gonna fail at 450 meters and there is only, uh, those two meters. Then I add underneath my shirt the Malaysian flag, because I knew that since it was a risky ascent, I had the logo of the, the, the new party of the Prime Minister, they gave a new name, so I put One Malaysia in my pants, One Malaysia on my back. Actually, I did throw the logo at two o’clock in the morning, so I, I fixed the Malaysian flag just underneath the ball, and I, as I was about to, to go down, I, I told to myself, I can’t, I can’t, doesn’t matter whether if I am having to die today, I’m gonna, I’m gonna make it, and, uh, and I made it.

1:34:42 So you went up the last two meters? Yeah, to the top. Oh yeah, that was magic, even though it was so dangerous. I pinched myself, I had a camera running but I never offed it, actually. You never turned the camera on?

1:34:54 You had it on your head either. There was the helicopter filming, they made a very bad job because on daddy it was cloudy, uh, also, uh, they were not, uh, having, uh, the right to, um, uh, they, they, they had to be always into martian. Okay, they couldn’t say yeah, and, and, and the problem, uh, for this kind, it’s not like the, the helicopter that they are using for TV news, so they can film because they are very stable guys, they were having, like, those long cameras, they couldn’t find me on the building, Tower One, Tower Two, they never knew in which one I was, it was cloudy, so they, they, they got, like, maybe, uh, the film, what they did with the helicopter, that cost $10,000 US dollars, they got, like, five seconds.

1:35:42 But, you know, you did it, uh, and there is images because there was guy from CPA using a 600 millimeters with a double, uh, lenses. Okay, and they got me at the top, because, you know what, when I came back to 88 story, I got arrested by the cops and they denied it, that I succeeded, really, until the guy, he showed to the, to the cops his laptop and he told them. And, well, and you put the Malaysian flags on there as a little bit of insurance, right? Just, yeah, well, to play it safe.

1:36:16 At first I wanted to do it on global warming, right, but Petronas, this is oil, so meaning I was going to go against, uh, Petronas. Yeah, which it was going to be very sensitive, right? So what happened, did they throw you in jail? They put me in jail and, uh, the next day I went to court. Okay, finally my lawyer was quite happy and he did a good job, although the prosecutor there, was she was claiming, uh, six months in jail and, and the fine, the judge did say another fine.

1:36:49 Okay, and I was quite funny because after I saw the prosecutor and she asked me, can I take pictures for my keys, they’re a big fan? And I said, but earlier you wanted to put me in jail, and he said, it’s just a game, we prosecutor, we are asking for the maximum but we are knowing that the judge will take the minimum. Right, it’s all just a big game. Yeah, right, you have to trust that, but I just didn’t know, it’s just like, f*** this s***, uh, 10 minutes to go she wanted to throw me in jail and now she’s asking me, uh, autographs.

1:37:21 So that’s one of your favorite ones, was the Petronas Tower, because it took so long and so many tries? Yeah, and, and I, I am sure that if one day there is a movie about my life, this is the movie of my life, that, that it can’t be something too complicated, uh, about my whole life, because my whole life is far too complicated, it has to be Petronas one, first attempt, second attempt, for the time that is successful. And we’ve back with the flashbacks.

1:37:52 Okay, that’s it. Have you read this, this is the story, have you written the screenplay for your moment yet? But somebody’s working on it, this is someone is. Okay, with all the flashbacks in there as well. Okay, they can have this footage, by the way, if they want it to.

1:38:03 Um, other things that you’ve been super proud of, the Taipei Tower, the Empire State Building, the place in Shanghai? Well, I, I have loved pretty much everything, but, you know, at one point, um, I cannot choose, everything overall, I’m happy about my whole life. Okay, was the Empire State Building cool to climb? I mean, it’s such an iconic piece, you know. I, I, I, I didn’t finish it, because you cannot finish it actually, there is like a big part of the building that is, uh, missing, and, uh, because you can, you cannot go above a certain level.

1:38:39 Okay, all right, so that’s not a finish. And the Taipei Tower, that looked, I mean, that, that was big, it was the tallest. That was nice, but the problem, uh, the news was, uh, very short, because the next day there was the, the, the worst tsunami in the world ever, Bandai, happened the day after I climbed the Taipei 101. So you didn’t get the news cycle? No, just locally was okay but internationally was quite medium.

1:39:07 Okay, and then the place in Shanghai, you climbed that, but China wasn’t very happy, so they threw you out of the country, and now you can’t, put me in jail for six days. Six days in China? Yeah, and that was quite funny because, um, what I have experienced in jail was, in interesting, you know, I, I was with five other inmates and, uh, every day, you know, we had to do a meditation. There was a warden checking, you know, we had to be kneeled down inside the jail for one hour, holding our head, not allowed to speak, three times a day, except, uh, weekends we can, we could watch TV in Chinese.

1:39:49 Okay, they call that a meditation. Being on YouTube, it’s a punishment, actually. Okay, three times a day, meaning three hours a day you do that, and, uh, and, well, I just, I, I taught to the prisoners to, to say freedom, so they were shouting freedom with me. I knew that nobody, I knew that the warden, they didn’t know what was the meaning of freedom, so, right, that was fine, but it was really funny because we were shouting freedom, freedom. And now you can’t go back to China unless you’re not.

1:40:20 I can, actually, the funny thing is, uh, because you have a statue in China. I’ve been banned for five, for five years, but five months later I was invited to come back to climb the Ten Men Mountain. Okay, and I climbed, I climbed it, uh, free solo, and a few years back they made a bronze statue with a nice, uh, plate, uh, written in Chinese and in English with a lot of spots and everything, and, uh, yeah, it’s kind of a legacy, you know, that I am having that in, uh, China.

1:40:54 Okay, and if I want to go back to China, I need to be invited by the government? Okay, you can’t just go anytime you want? No, I can’t, because, uh, after that five years ban I am kind of a blacklisted. Okay, meaning if everything is official, like, uh, two years back I was giving a speech, I flew back to Shanghai, but I was invited. Okay, global warming is important for you?

1:41:21 Yeah, it is, because we are, we are destroying, uh, we are destroying the planet, and, uh, for us we are not so much concerned, but for the next generation it’s going to be far earth, and in 10 generation from now it could be maybe at the end of the world, so a lot, at least for the human being species, there will be always things, uh, surviving it, it’s possible maybe, uh, to, to restart. You know, I was even reading, like, if, for example, uh, the sun was disappearing, still we would be able to live a certain time, even though it’s going to be really cold, but it leads to the extension of the human life. Okay, but maybe the human life overall, it’s not that good, so, you know, because with our intelligence we can do, uh, very bad things, we can also do very good things, but you know, over the last thousand years we did a lot of bad things.

1:42:30 So a lot of your clients are, are to get awareness for global warming, awareness for, you know, the rights of employees in France? Yeah, but sometimes I, I, you know, I, I feel a bit, uh, desperated, because, uh, it looks like more like something not very serious when there is a big financial crisis, who cares about the global warming? It looks like kind of a luxury. Right, but is there a crisis now? There should be one, you know, with this new, uh, coronal virus.

1:43:05 Yeah, tell me, you want to do something to highlight, you know, they are bringing, uh, a bit of, uh, paranoid to the whole world, telling, uh, telling, uh, I was watching, uh, the news earlier on BBC and, uh, it is kind of scary what they are saying, but we are just forgetting that influenza is killing, is killing 3,000 people every week, so it’s far more, far more deadly. We are just talking about what we are calling the normal, simple, basic flu. Right, the pallidism is killing one million people every year, who cares, there is no contamination.

1:43:55 That, that, that’s what I, I, you know, the human being species is not that good because there isn’t much compassion. We care about ourselves, if there is no contagious, it’s okay, it’s fine. So this is why sometimes, you know, I, I, I feel a bit, a bit sad, you know, for all of these people who are dying every day but nobody knows, because it’s not on the news or, like, you know, every now and then they’re coming back to Syria, you know, what is happening is very bad, I don’t know how many hundred thousands of people already died, they are suffering, is very cold now, but it’s just not interesting.

1:44:41 The chronovirus, it’s like a good business deal, it’s also a gigantic businesses for the pharmaceutical laboratories, they are leading the world, these people. So you kind of want to raise awareness that we’re looking at that the wrong way. It’s a good point you make, I mean, influenza kills people all the time and we don’t talk about that, but we talk about this coronavirus which has killed far fewer people but it’s the thing to talk about. It’s almost like when there’s a terrorist incident and 10 people die, it’s like, but 100,000 people die of, uh, car accidents every year, we don’t talk about that.

1:45:15 So the, the Red Indian genocide, it is the worst in the whole history of the entire humanity, but nobody speak about it, even Obama didn’t get the guts to say anything about it. This is Armenian genocide? No, no, Red Indian. Oh, the Red Indian. Oh yeah, okay, gotcha.

1:45:34 But no one talks about it. Yeah, you know, bringing, uh, Jews, uh, epidemy, um, I forgot, cholera, that, that has killed a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about you, uh, what, what is your daily routine? How do you stay fit?

1:45:49 You said you have a climbing ceiling in Bali? Yeah. In your house, and you climb every day? Yeah, yeah, you know, sometimes I’m even marveling, like a guy my age can still, uh, hanging on a ceiling like a bat, and, uh, and, like, staying, like, few minutes, you know, uh, I am crossing one side, coming back the other side, you know, without going down, so it’s, like, sometimes I’m calculating I am making nearly 100 meters on a ceiling. Just on a ceiling?

1:46:20 Yeah, then it’s kind of, uh, you know, mind-blowing. Right, so your body’s still functional? But, yeah, but you use it every day? Yeah, that, that’s the thing, you know, when the doctors, they condemn me, they, they, they have, they haven’t understood that actually, although so badly, uh, injured, maybe the body at the capacity, maybe to redo some joints, they are very personal, they are really s***ty, but it works, but because I’ve used my, uh, I have used my hands if not, they would be completely blocked.

1:46:52 Yeah, yeah, probably, right, because you use it every day. What else do you do to stay fit? Do you watch your diet, do you watch your sleep? Well, you know what, no, I, well, I am the guy, I like napping, you know, nothing extraordinary. I like, you know, sun bath, I’m doing a bit of surfing in Bali, uh, I like also going to the beach early morning, you know, just like kind of, uh, meditating about, you know, what I have done, what I will be doing, what’s life, what stuff, what, you know, all of the questions that we human being we are having, and maybe all the more when we are getting older and, you know, like, you know, realizing how beautiful it is, watching the birds, listening the birds, watching the sun, uh, rising, watching the, the, the sun going down, watching leave with the wind, everything is into motion, watching the, uh, the dragonfly, you know, there’s a big insect, like, uh, looks like a bit like a plane, helicopter, watching plenty of things, sometimes there is monkeys, sometimes there is a varan, there is a big turtle, there is all of these things that I didn’t see it when I was young, I was too much focused on training and climbing, so overall maybe there is a time for everything in life, and, uh, and now it’s, it’s more a time into a reflection, um, looking the world and maybe seeing that there is a lot of marvels that, uh, I just forget to look at it.

1:48:41 Right, and we are having, we having it in front of our eyes and we are not seeing it. And, and it’s a good time, I enjoy being 57, 58. Yeah, and you’re a father as well, you have a five-year-old and you still have kids that are in their 30s as well? Yeah, you know, my eldest, Julian, is 32. Uh, he got some twin just like, uh, five months ago, uh, he had already one son, my, uh, elder is having a daughter also and a little boy, and my youngest, 25, is still not, and now because I did remarry, I am having a little boy who is five years old.

1:49:22 Okay, how’s that? Ah, it’s pretty cool, because actually not that I, I, I loved all my kids the same way, but the thing is when I was younger I was also far too focused on climbing, so there’s a lot of things that I didn’t see. As my little boy, I am really seeing the way he’s, uh, developing, and, uh, and I find it very interesting, and he’s playful, and, uh, you know. Does he know what you do? He knows, and, uh, he, he, he starts to be a bit afraid.

1:49:58 Okay, because he’s having, uh, already, uh, the idea and the concept of life and death. Okay, and he knows that so far he fell, because there is a climbing wall, he knows how it feels, uh, falling only from his height and then falling from one or two meters, and then he knows that it’s bad, so I guess he, he can imagine that if I am falling from very high, I’m not gonna make it. Okay, so he’s starting to realize that and it scares them. And your other kids, do they just know that’s you?

1:50:34 They well, my son, my, my elder was asking me, when are you planning to stop climbing? Also my man, your mom asked you that? Oh yeah, she’s 83 and, yeah, she, she doesn’t, she doesn’t understand why I am, where, first of all, why one day I started to climb and why I’m still climbing, and, uh, and it’s quite funny because I remember a long time ago my dad, he was telling me, but climbing is not a job, and I remember because I was 19, he was already telling me about thinking about the day I would be retired, and of course now he passed away and, he was a good guy, you know, I, I had been, you know, tough with him, you know, a long time ago because I couldn’t, uh, understand everything, but you know, again, when you are getting older, maybe you are gaining more wisdom, gaining more understanding, and then maybe things that, uh, when I was younger, you know, I, I saw it wrongly, but now of course everything is a bit like a puzzle, you know, things are, are coming in place.

1:51:52 And tell me about you, if I were to ask a bunch of your friends, what is Alain’s superpower? How are you able to do all these things you do? What would they say, what would be the first thing that comes to mind? Is it because you’re organized or is it because you have this deep passion? What would they say?

1:52:07 It is, I, I would say this is the real, uh, power, willpower, and, and, and mainly because, um, this, this is the way, uh, I am seeing my life, you know, as I told you at the very beginning, I wanted to live my dreams, I wanted not to dream my life. So overall I’m not bored, I’m living my dreams, I’m having fun. Another 20 years will be good, right? You want to be climbing in your 70s? Yeah, well, that could be nice.

1:52:42 Right, it would be nice. Uh, what was the best day of your life and the worst day? Wow, the best day, that’s complicated, because there is so many best day in my life. I, I, I don’t know, I, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. Maybe standing at the top of the Petronas could be, also seeing my son when, uh, he born, so there’s a lot of things actually that I have loved in my life.

1:53:12 Okay, it’s not just only about climbing. What about the worst day? Even when I fell, I, I didn’t feel it that it was that bad, although it was really bad, but I, uh, the worst day, what could it be? Um, I don’t know, I, I, there is no words, they actually, they are all good. Okay, what scares you?

1:53:40 Um, being bored, not, you know, having the thinking, having the feeling that I have wasted my life, you know, not having the guts to realize my dreams. Do you ever get bored? I’m not, no, I’m not easily, uh, bored, because I, I also like simple things, like, like sleeping, like, uh, enjoying, uh, watching, uh, watching the nature and, so maybe for some people, you know, there is a time for everything. Uh, when I was younger I was completely restless, I had to climb every day and now I am more into a contemplative period in my life, so I’m not bored.

1:54:28 Right, and you always have things you’re planning on doing. Do you have climbs in mind for the next couple years? Yeah, we have plenty, plenty. Okay, I don’t know if I will do everything, but at least, uh, I am planning to do some stuff. Is there anything you really want to climb?

1:54:44 I, I have always wanted to climb this, uh, Burj Al Arab, you know, this hotel shaped like a sail. I was nearly about to do it, uh, yeah, 2013. I was supposed to do a, a live event for NBC, uh, US, and, uh, and they back off. So okay, because they have to give you permission? No, no, I, I had the permission and everything, but, you know, there is always, uh, thousands of lawyers, some they are, they think that, uh, it’s doable, others they’re gonna think it’s crazy, so it’s always a bad battle with lawyers.

1:55:23 Lawyer battle, yeah. And, uh, Alex was even supposed to do Taipei 101 live. Really? He contacted me for that at that time, he write my book, and, uh, and, uh, he was going to climb it with you typing me, I did it before, and, uh, he was going to do it for a live event as well. Okay, but he got the same problem, uh, as me with the Burj Al Arab.

1:55:48 Okay, he has not done free solo since El Capitan? Someone told me, no, because it, it does actually, it’s even doing, uh, high mountains, right? Just rope climbing. Yeah, I’m following him, you know, nowadays, you know, there is a big community on Instagram, so, right, you know, pretty much, uh, things that people they are doing, and, uh, you know, nowadays he is more into doing things in Patagonia or. Yeah, uh, Antarctica maybe, he was doing also possible.

1:56:20 Yeah, same with Jimmy Chin, I think. Um, what keeps you awake at night? What concerns you about the world? A lot of things, like, uh, like all of us do, the war, finally the, the, the cruelty of the people overall. I, I am still having the feeling that we human beings we are, we are a mistake, if you compare, you know, the, the way how the, the nature is working, how all the animals are working, everything, uh, is having, uh, his place, there is no waste, and it looks like that the only mistake is, uh, the human being species.

1:57:11 Does that mean we need to do something different? I don’t know what we could do, it’s in our nature to mess things up, I guess so. Yeah, maybe the nuclear bombs are going to rule the problems for us, maybe, or maybe the warming, I don’t know, who knows. But I mean, El Capitan’s not going anywhere, is it? No.

1:57:31 So you know, no, I, at least, you know, a lot of people like you, I’m sure you’re having plenty of fun doing what you do, being a journalist, but I saw, so you are doing a lot of things, uh, you are a sports person and, uh, and you did some very great achievements yourself, so I guess those are the things that keeps us alive. Yeah, it is, but we have to ask ourselves questions like, you said, if you look at nature, there’s no species that creates so much waste and damage. No, no, you’re absolutely right, you, you know, I, I am seeing it every day in Indonesia because, uh, uh, you know, like, for example, there are the deforestation there, it’s, uh, massive, more than, uh, it was in Brazil.

1:58:25 Really? Where, where was it, and they keep on, sorry, where is this, Indonesia? Oh, Indonesia. Oh yeah, yeah, the deforestation’s bad there, right? Very, very, no one’s watching and they are planting, uh, pantry for the oil, right?

1:58:41 Which this oil is very bad, because, uh, actually, uh, it is a kind of oil that is hardening in the system and, uh, it is causing a heart disease, so we’re killing ourselves. And, you know, the problem is, as long as there will be a huge, uh, profit and they don’t, they, the problem is they don’t know, uh, how to replace it. Doing what, you know, meaning, uh, there is, uh, the, uh, economy, there is a gross domestic product and they, and there is 264 millions people, so they need to find other ways to generate money, and, uh, maybe not so simple.

1:59:29 The problem with some of these industries is, like you said, it seems like it makes money, but if you look at the total cost to health care, to pollution, to all that, it ma, it’s massive. Exactly, it’s the same thing as, uh, as all of those, uh, cigarettes maker. It is, uh, you know, nowadays, I didn’t even know, I saw my son, he told me in France it’s nearly 10 euros for a pack, now he’s driving to Spain to buy his cigarettes. Okay, because the taxes and all that stuff.

2:00:01 But, you know, that, that’s why there’s probably a hundred euros a pack if you think about it. There is always a way, you know, if you don’t wanna stop smoking, uh, you will be crossing the whole world to buy, uh, cigarettes. You used to give your wife a hard time about smoking, right? Yeah, that was dangerous when she was doing that. People thought that was funny.

2:00:18 Nah, because she was, she was, like, kind of teasing me that what I was doing was dangerous, and then I, I told that actually smoking is, uh, as dangerous as climbing, or maybe it may take more time to die, but at the end of the day it kills you as well. That’s what Alex Honnold said, when people ask him about free solo, he says, he says the consequences are high but that doesn’t mean it’s high risk. That’s what he said about free soloing. Exactly. You agree and you feel the same way?

2:00:47 Pretty much the same way, right? Okay, it’s not like, you know, at the end, at the end of the day, you know, we are dying, so it depends on which way you are choosing, you know. Everybody knows nowadays that drinking, smoking, uh, eating too much, eating rubbish, it kills us, we, we don’t feel it because it’s not in instantaneous. If you climb El Capitan, if you fall, you will be leaving until you are touching, uh, the bottom of the, of the, of the cliff, but, um, yeah, if, if, if you are smoking, if you, if you are living in, in an unhealthy way, you are also killing yourself, and this is also what global warming is doing to us, which we are not really sizing it, right, because it’s not, it’s not something immediate, like falling or having a car accident and bumping into a tree, you are done, but we are only looking at things that it takes a short time to die, but not really realizing that we are destroying the entire planet and we are killing ourselves, we are killing the human being’s species.

2:02:06 Yeah, that being said, it’s hard to be on Instagram these days because you see climbers dying all the time. I mean, I followed Jimmy also, one of my friends died, like, not long ago, and Austin, I forgot his family name, and he was following me for quite a long time, he did, he actually is a guy who was specialized on a climbing history, he’s one of the guy who did very, very good things about what I did, uh, 25 years ago. Okay, he said actually he is the guy, because I climbed the 15 roots in between 5.13A and 5.13D, uh, solo, which is, uh, unequaled in the entire story.

2:02:50 Okay, and he was the guy that told everyone about it? Yeah. What’s it like when you lose someone in the community? Like, how does the community respond? It sucks, because, um, well, you are never really, uh, prepared for that, it’s like, um, you, you especially, you know, in my field, I saw so many guys, uh, who, who passed away, like Patrick Lange, Patrick Barrow, Jean-Christophe Lafaye recently, Tony Llama, Austin, I forgot his family, I’m sorry, meaning Jean, he was, like, 19 years old, and there is a lot, so shows how dangerous, I’m thinking about a bit, I, I’m gonna find about 100, easily.

2:03:43 Right, so it’s still very dangerous sport. Nadine Potter, yeah, uh, Dan Osmond, that’s a lot of people. It’s a lot. So this is just part of the sport, always will be. Yeah, yeah.

2:03:55 Um, Alain, I always ask a few questions at the end. I’m going to ask you, if you could pick up a phone and call the 20-year-old Alain, how old were you when you had your injury? 19. 19. So yeah, if you could call the 20-year-old, that Alain, so you’ll be recovering from that injury perhaps, if you could give him some advice based on everything you know now, what would you tell a 20-year-old, and what would you tell the 18-year-old at the same time?

2:04:20 So So keep climbing, stay safe and, uh, thanks so much, Alain, appreciate you coming on. Well, that’s all I can wish for myself, and also because, yeah, seeing my, uh, little son, uh, getting older, so I need to be careful. Yeah, all right, well, please be careful for me. It’s, I know that’s why I don’t want to really say be safe to you, because you just need to be young, just be explaining that I, you know, I am like, like you like sports car, you, you take a brand new Ferrari, uh, you are reaching the red zone, uh, it’s, uh, eight or nine thousand RPM.

2:05:27 So me now, I would be more like a small Volkswagen Golf, meaning my, uh, RPM, uh, it’s, I am still reaching the red, but it’s 5,000. Right, that’s where you are now. Right, we’ll keep revving it, and, uh, thanks so much, Alain, I appreciate you coming. Thank you so much.