Dennis McKenna – The Screaming Abyss

Our guest this week on London Real is the psychedelic researcher Dennis McKenna.

Dennis is brother to the late Terence McKenna who pioneered the use of plants as away to positively alter human consciousness.

Dennis and Terence blazed the trail for modern psychedelic experimentation as part of a group known as the Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss.

This was a group of Berkeley students who went down to Columbia in the early seventies in search of DMT.

Given the fact that you are a London Real fan I am going to assume that you already understand the importance of psychedelics in my own personal journey.

Terence McKenna is something of a patron saint for the show.

His visionary lectures on consciousness, culture, the arts and natural drugs are legendary and continue to be a resource for people like myself who use such substances to explore and expand their own minds.

Both Terence and Dennis come from a different age in many respects, an age when spirituality, music, literature and drugs all went hand in hand, and when being called a rebel was still a compliment.

Forming a formidable team, Terence was the learned preacher, and Dennis was the researcher.

The two would travel America and the world bringing the gospel of mind enhancement through natural plants.

Both of them committed their lives to the idea that the reality we see in the everyday is not even a dot on the the true reality beyond our senses.

If you have never tried psychedelics, then this kind of talk is going to seem downright weird.

But like his late brother, Dennis is a very articulate, humorous and kind soul, who will immediately win the trust of any of you sceptics out there.

This is no ageing hippy spouting claptrap! This is a scholar of natural psychedelics, a man learned in science and the humanities.

Dennis has a perspective on the mind and its relationship to culture which is informative and revelatory.

Something which will strike you right away about Dennis is his ability to get deeply vulnerable about his story, his relationship with his brother, and his own flaws.

Dennis pretty much bears all in regards to his relationship with Terence — the comradeship and the fallings out, and the traumatic experience of watching his brother succumb to brain cancer.

For anyone watching this who is already a fan of Terence McKenna’s work, this might be a little painful too, when you hear how much suffering there was in the great man’s last decade.

Dennis tells me about the self-doubt, conflicts and personal trials Terence went through in his final years leading up to his disease, and also speaks about their own disagreements as brothers.

As two Irish-American brothers from Colorado, their relationship was intensely close, and even difficult.

Dennis’s book The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, was self-published in 2012.

He tells me the book was as much a way of healing the grief of losing Terence as it was a way of recounting the facts of his journey with his brother.

A point to look out for in this absorbing discussion with Dennis is what he thinks of the influence of his brother’s message, and the work he and Terence were doing in the eighties and nineties.

It’s so difficult for us to imagine now, but back in the day plant psychedelics were extremely taboo, and people who advocated their use were thought of as quacks and frauds.

Dennis himself is surprised by the transformation in the last twenty years, and he tells me it is still hard to believe that Ayahuasca that basically become a household name, and pretty much mainstream.

Dennis is convinced that a lot of this can be attributed to his brother’s visionary stubbornness, and his willingness to just keep talking when everyone else was too scared to speak out.

Still a believer in the power of plant medicines, Dennis regards these substances the same way indigenous peoples have done for centuries. Not as drugs but as teachers.

Man’s relationship to nature is something that needs to be revolutionised and Dennis believes that Ayahuasca is reaching out to humanity with a message of oneness with nature.

Dennis recalls that first journey he and Terence did to Columbia in search of DMT.

Frankly, it’s an outrageous, enlightening and at times unbelievable tale of insanity and spiritual awakening!

These guys were really pioneers in the early seventies, and they had very little to rely on but their own scientific discipline and a passionate belief that plant substances had something to teach human kind.

If you remotely curious about what Terence McKenna was like as a man, then you are going to love Dennis’s discussion about his brother’s ability to capture an audience.

Dennis is outspoken about his frustrations with Terence over the wild and bizarre things he could get away with saying.

But Dennis also speaks with with pride and affection about his brother’s poetic and shamanic gifts.

Terence McKenna was revered for his articulate power as much as anything else, and Dennis and I talk about this.

Dennis tells me his brother’s saving graces were his commitment to independent thinking, and his ‘Irish twinkle’ or sense of humour.

Though he was, and still is, a kind of counter-culture icon, Dennis insists that Terence never wanted to be a guru.

He simply wanted to kick-start
self-awareness and independent thinking
in his audiences.

It’s fascinating to hear an intimate brother’s take on why Terence was so good at doing that, and why he continues to have an impact even to this day.

As well as talking at length about his brother as a man and an icon, Dennis and I have some interesting discussions about his own views on plant medicines, dosages and his own take on the meaning of the psychedelic experience.

Dennis is a scientist and scholar in his own right, and has contributed to the present day open-mindedness about consciousness-expanding substances.

Whatever your take on psychedelics is, and whatever you feel about our beloved plant allies, you’ll find this episode one of those special London Real experiences.

Dennis is a warm-hearted, gracious man, and has that same intonation and lilt of his brother, and in many ways Terence was in the room with us during the filming of this episode.

So sit back, relax, and enjoy the rest of your Sunday and join us in the Screaming Abyss.

London Realer, I give you Dennis McKenna.

[0:08:20] Introduction, Going on an adventure with Terrence.

[0:10:40] Don’t let the facts stand in the way of a good story.

[0:12:50] Kickstarter campaign that raised more money than any other books – $90,000 raised.

[0:17:00] A personal story.

[0:18:00] When Terrance died.

[0:25:00] Alternative treatments on the brain tumour.

[0:27:00] Response from the community when Terrance died.

[0:29:00] Terrance has never really gone away. He’s a ghost on the internet.

[0:32:00] Are you surprised how quickly plant medicine became so popular.

[0:35:00] MDMA and prescription drugs. Psilocybin.

[0:37:00] Talking about these stuff in the 1980’s.

[0:39:00] Social transformation in the view of Ayahuasca.

[0:40:00] Ayahuasca our screwed up relationship with nature.

[0:45:00] La Chorrera in Columbia. Discovery of DMT. LSD was a drug. DMT was a message from the future.

[0:47:15] Verola.

[0:48:50] Screaming Abyss

[0:53:00] Akuhai

[0:56:00] Mushroom. Downloading funny ideas.

[1:00:00] Experiments at the La Chorrera.

[1:02:40] Becoming psychotic for 2 weeks.

[1:07:30] The experiment was unfolding. Writing.

[1:10:00] Working out the cycles when it will come back.

[1:11:50] The Time Wave Theory.

[1:13:10] I was always sceptical of the Iching.

[1:15:20] the mistake in the Time Wave.

[1:16:50] Really wanted to believe in the idea.

[1:18:00] Conceptually challenged. He was a poet. It was his voice. He was a shaman.

[1:20:00] Glossolalia. Imitate this glossolalia and speak this gibberish.

[1:21:35] Did he train to speak that way?

[1:22:00] Living in this hippy house.

[1:22:48] I love listening to him. Say to craziest thing that seem to sound rational.

[1:23:40] Who’s a modern day Terrance?

[1:24:30] Here’s a bunch of interesting idea. Think for yourself. Never selling anything.

[1:26:00] Invested in the idea that people has a their own mind. There’s always room for humour.

[1:28:40] There’s lots of stuff going on and there’s  a lot to learn. The world is querer that you can possibly imagine.

[1:30:00] Ayahuasca is a good teacher. We are curious monkeys.

[1:34:00] Psilocybin: Magic Mushroom Grower’s Guide.

[1:39:00] Visionary paintings. Luis Eduardo Luna – Ayahuasca Visions: The Religious Iconography of Peruvian Shaman.

[1:41:00] I just work for the plants.

[1:42:00] Symbiosis is what the plants want. Michael Pollan – did we domesticated corn or has corn domesticated us?

[1:43:00] The biosphere or Gaia has put all the eggs in one basket in us.

[1:44:50] We don’t need to grow the mushrooms to earn the right to try them.

[1:46:00] The heroic dosage.

[1:48:20] Abyss will open up. Mushrooms vs ayahuasca. Mushrooms are just as profound.

[1:50:30] The importance of setting. Safety. Intention. The set. Who you are. The mind set.

[1:54:35] Mushrooms is more like downloading a map.

[1:56:00] Mushrooms, ayahuasca and DMT are all tryptamine

[1:57:00] Did Terrance stop taking psychedelic?

[2:00:00] Excuse for not taking psychedelic. On going conversation.

[2:03:40] Graham Hancock.

[2:07:40] Myths of the big flood, volcanoes, and earthquake. Archeology.

[2:09:25] Graham and his psychedelic experiences.

[2:11:00] Success secrets.

[2:12:10] Plants are intelligent. The Intelligent Plant – Michael Pollan.

[2:15:20] Advice to the 20 year old Dennis McKenna.

[2:16:00] Best advice ever received.

[2:22:00] What would you tell Terrance.

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Denise GansmannCyaOoh deen777Katebmn0101 Recent comment authors
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wow! I really enjoyed this interview… thank-you – Dennis McKenna is such a beautiful soul… I could really feel him when he spoke

Ooh deen777
Ooh deen777

Thank you for this.


Thank you


Much appreciateed ! Cheers 😊


Was such a joy to listen to this interview! Thank you.


Very nice intro. Perfect. This was a true gift. Thank you.


Very nice intro. Perfect.


Thank you very much for this interview 🙂

Paolo Papoose Pesce

… great thinkers, the both of the McKenna brothers; i’ve named my design company Divergent Consciousness after reading Terence books and listen to Dennis speeches.


That explains whey Dr Guzman did not allow a mushroom to be named after Terrence & Dennis McKenna.


[…] In this episode of London Real, host Brian Rose sits down with author and ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna to talk about his book, The Brotherhood Of The Screaming Abyss, which chronicles his time spent with his brother, Terence. In their discussion, Dennis speaks about the “Heroic Dose,” his time spent with Terence at La Chorrera, Panama, the misconceptions that people have about psilocybin, plunging into the abyss, the importance of set/setting/intention, C.G. Jung’s Psychology and Alchemy, and more. Check out a small segment from their talk in the video below and hear the full discussion by visiting […]


I’d like to point out that it was Curandera María Sabina through R. Gordon Wasson’s article in Life Magazine that made the mushrooms known to the western world. Not to discredit Terence nor Dennis, and I’m sure they agree.


Excellent interview, though I’m saddened by how often Dennis uses the word “crazy”.

CA Howard
CA Howard

Excellent interview..thank you! <3

Tara Haghighi Yacalis

great interview! very intense, emotional, honest and informative … you are a good interviewer!

Timothy Solomon
Timothy Solomon

“Terence never had anything to sell…and would have been a ‘false prophet’ had he been in it for the money…”
shortly after this is stated…
scumbag brian withholds one of Dennis’ answers as bait for paid membership to his site…

If you wanted to teach someone what hypocrisy was, this would be a textbook example.

The psychedelic experience is an intellectual endeavor, not a financial one.

John Yin
John Yin

Thanks for the interview – love Dennis…

Andrew Cooper

Mind = Blown

Eduardo Rivera
Eduardo Rivera

People react like molecules..Twinge them about and they react similarly..

Can San
Can San

Great interview, thank you !